New To Me JBL 4350 Clones Almost.

[lakebilly]

Just last Saturday, my wife and I made the trek from Fort Wayne to southern Indiana to get a pickup truck load of vintage JBL speakers. This was from an estate sale and I've been patiently waiting for about 8 weeks to complete the deal. I came back home with a total of seven boxes and quite a few parts and accessories. The pride of the haul are some very large clones that attempted to replicate the 4350 monitors. The cabinets were made at a local cabinet shop in 2005 and need a little TLC but overall are very nice. They even came with lenses that are in excellent shape.

The obvious question is what's inside. The pictures tell half the story, but the following list of items tells the other half.



Low Freq driver
LE15B


Low Freq driver
LE15B


Mid Freq driver*
2202H


Hi Freq Driver*
2440


Ultra Hi Freq Driver
75


Horn



Dividing Network w/pot
3107


HF Attenuator
3182




I do not active have an active crossover as of yet and did not listen to them before purchasing them.

My first question is can anybody recommend a good active crossover? For the short term, if not long term, I will be driving them with a McIntosh C20, two MC30's and an MC240.

Any thoughts, opinions, do's and don'ts and words of advice will be greatly appreciated.

I've been an audiophile for most of my life, but it hasn't been until recent years that I have had the space and a few spare dollars to really enjoy my passion.

[BMWCCA]

Welcome to LH. I've enjoyed watching your saga on AK. You've come to the right place to further enhance your passion.

As the owner of a pair of 4345 clones purchased through a member here, I can heartily recommend an active crossover to get you started that was recommended to me by others on this site. The Ashly XR1001 has been a workhorse for years. It has proven to be quiet and durable. There are many of them available used for around $100, just watch out for those that have been used on the road and handled roughly. You can still buy them new for only $249. The older US-made version is labeled XR1001 and the later versions are labeled XR-1001 after which some were made in Taiwan. Any of these will work fine for your bi-amp setup. I always thought I'd eventually move up to a Marchand crossover but in the eleven-years I've had my 4345s it just never seemed necessary.

Good luck.

BTW, what else was in that load of JBL stuff you acquired?

[macaroonie]

Hi Billy , glad you made it over . :applaud:

[Robh3606]

Welcome ! Looks like you are gonna have a bit of fun!

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

A few random thoughts on your project:

1. The LE15B woofers are 4 ohms each, so make sure your amp can handle a 2 ohm load. I am not sure either of your Macs will be happy with that load. I would seriously consider a solid-state amp for the woofers.

2. Is the damping material white fiberglass or polyester? If it is polyester, I would replace it, especially in the 2202H doghouse.

3. I agree on the Ashly recommendation, but it is very likely that you will have grounding issues that will cause hum. You will need to manage your wiring carefully.

Looks like a lot of fun!


Widget

[1audiohack]

Pretty cool there Lakebilly.

For the active crossover are you looking for something very basic like an analog Rane AC22 or something with DSP as well?

Barry.

[lakebilly]

Early this AM, before reading all of your replies, I ordered a DBX 234xs from Sweetwater. Let me know your thoughts on that. Sweetwater is in my backyard, so a return will be quite painless if that is a poor choice.

I hadn't given the impedance of the speakers any thought whatsoever, but I did take a look at the LE15's and they are marked 6 to 8 ohms. So that will be load for an MC240.

Also, was the 3182 Hi Freq attenuator part of the original 4350's?

Thanks for all of the input. Will keep you posted.

[Mr. Widget]

Realize JBL wasn’t particularly honest about their impedance labeling. Also realize a pair of woofers in parallel cuts your impedance in half.


Widget

[lakebilly]

Realize JBL wasn’t particularly honest about their impedance labeling. Also realize a pair of woofers in parallel cuts your impedance in half.


Widget


Got it, Thanks.

[speakerdave]

The McIntosh MC2200 and 2205 (and perhaps others of that generation) have taps at 2,4 and 8 ohms. If it meets your taste in solid state amps, I think it would work well for those woofers. I think you'll want more oomph.

Because it has no low pass filter at the treble/UHF handoff, the 3107 is correct for the 2440 as long as it has the original diaphragm, which dies just above 9k. I believe that diaphragm was still available in 2005, though it is now out of production.

Good score! I'm wondering what's in the other boxes. Maybe I'll find out at AK.

[speakerdave]

You mention both the 3160 and the 3182. The 3160 could conceivable have been used for a woofer/midbass handoff. I don't know what a 3182 would be doing in that speaker other than the same thing. Neither would be an ideal frequency for that handoff. Either frequency would be safe for the drivers involved, but both would be less than ideal because both would deprive the mid bass of frequencies it is designed to handle with aplomb.

[lakebilly]

After taking a closer look at this, the 3160's input is connected to the LF speaker terminal and the output is connected to the two LE15b's. It does connect to anything else. The 3107 connects to the HF speaker terminals and feeds the 2202H, 2440 and 075.

I'm thinking the 3160 needs to go. I will parallel connect both LE15b's directly to the LF speaker terminals.

My crossover is showing up today. Any input on where to set it at?

Also, appreciate all of the input on this. Especially the recommendations on amplification. Wouldn't you know it, I just sold my MC2205.

[Robh3606]

My crossover is showing up today. Any input on where to set it at?

Try 250-300Hz

Rob:)

[lakebilly]

Speaker Dave, sorry but I listed the wrong part number for the HF attenuator. It is a 3160 not a 3182.

[Robh3606]

Most of what you are looking for you can find in the catalogs on the site Check 1974 Pro and earlier

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/catalogs/jbl-catl.htm


http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3160%20Network.pdf


Rob :)

[macaroonie]

[QUOTE=Mr. Widget;427764]A few random thoughts on your project:

1. The LE15B woofers are 4 ohms each, so make sure your amp can handle a 2 ohm load. I am not sure either of your Macs will be happy with that load. I would seriously consider a solid-state amp for the woofers.

Since the LE15b is nominal 4 ohm it might be a plan to wire them in series giving nominal 8 ohm
Given that Billy is gong to run active relative level adjustment is easily implemented.

In that same subject Billy with the DBX you may find that the output is a little 'hot' for the input to the Mac power amps. You will probably need to provide some attenuation or your gain structure wiill be all out of whack.
More on this later once you get it all plugged up and running.
I'm assuming that the DBX is switchable to 2 way operation ??

[lakebilly]

Good idea on putting the subs in series. There seems to be some debate on whether series vs. parallel has the same sound quality, but that's easy enough to try. If these things sound promising with the equipment I have on hand, I will find a solid state amp to drive the low end. I love the sound of my MC30's when they drive my Altec 19's and I hope they will work on the HF half at least for now.

Thanks for the link to JBL info. Found something in the 1970 catalog.

[lakebilly]

Now that the weekend is here, I've dove into this a bit. I've found that I've got LE15B's in one cabinet and 2215A's in the other. I've also got one extra each of both the LE15B and 2215A.

So, if I were to purchase one driver so that all four would match, which one do I buy? I'm leaning toward the 2215A so that I could connect them in parallel and have a 4 ohm load. That would give me more amplifier options.

Or I could use them as is and wait for some 2231H's to show up somewhere.

[lakebilly]

Also, currently installed in the 4350's are 075 bullet tweeters. I've got a pair of 077's that would seem to be a pretty close match to the 2405H's that were originially used in the 4350's. Should I swap those out? It looks easy.

[macaroonie]

Also, currently installed in the 4350's are 075 bullet tweeters. I've got a pair of 077's that would seem to be a pretty close match to the 2405H's that were originially used in the 4350's. Should I swap those out? It looks easy.

Yup. 077's are prettier than 2405 what with the 'crystal' phase plug. Thats a bonus.

[Mr. Widget]

Also, currently installed in the 4350's are 075 bullet tweeters. I've got a pair of 077's that would seem to be a pretty close match to the 2405H's that were originially used in the 4350's. Should I swap those out? It looks easy.Mechanically they are an exact match for the 075s and electrically they are an exact match for the 2405s which are the tweeters that your crossovers were actually designed for anyway. So yes, I absolutely would change those out.

Don't get hung up on the impedance. There are many threads on the topic, but rest assured, the 077 tweeter is identical to the 2405.


Widget

[lakebilly]

Thank you gentlemen. The 075's will go.

I'm seeing several 2231A's out on eBay. Would it be worth my troubles to pick them up and pawn off the LE15B's and the 2215A's that don't really belong in there? At that point, I would have all the correct components for a pair of 4350's.

I could then start working on porting and aesthetics such as the blue baffle paint.

[macaroonie]

Here's some Bobby Basic plots from Win ISD showing 2231a purple 2215 green and just for grins 2226. red
Hope that gives you a better perspective.
I suspect that you will get good prices for the ' vintage' LE15's

85863

So , looks like you have a plan , 2231 will play lower and the DBX will adjust any level changes that are called for.

[lakebilly]

Here's some Bobby Basic plots from Win ISD showing 2231a purple 2215 green and just for grins 2226. red
Hope that gives you a better perspective.
I suspect that you will get good prices for the ' vintage' LE15's

85863

So , looks like you have a plan , 2231 will play lower and the DBX will adjust any level changes that are called for.


Thank you so much for doing that. It looks like I have my marching orders. Better performance and hopefully and improved $$ value overall. Yes, the plan is coming together. I want to make these as authentic as possible and enjoy the whole process.

Any ideas on where I might find four decent 2231a's besides eBay? Would anybody on this forum have a stash of these?

[macaroonie]

Just about everyone here has a stash :)

Try Hi Fi Shark : https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=JBL+2231a

There's a pair in Canada.

BTW Win ISD is a free download . It has a large database of driver T/S parameters that then allows you to simulate various box sizes , ports etc .
Pretty easy to use although you do need to learn the moves. Worth playing about with a very simple example.

[lakebilly]

Just about everyone here has a stash :)

Try Hi Fi Shark : https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=JBL+2231a

There's a pair in Canada.

BTW Win ISD is a free download . It has a large database of driver T/S parameters that then allows you to simulate various box sizes , ports etc .
Pretty easy to use although you do need to learn the moves. Worth playing about with a very simple example.


Thanks again. I will download ISD. Looks like fun!

[lakebilly]

As I continue to think about this, I'm wondering if the 2235H wouldn't be a better choice? The porting on my enclosures is very close to the 4355's which featured the 2235H's. It looks as though the 2235H might be more available actually.

Any thoughts on that?

[macaroonie]

85873

[Robh3606]

How hard are you going to push them?? 2235 more x-max better power handling.

Rob:)

[lakebilly]

How hard are you going to push them?? 2235 more x-max better power handling.

Rob:)

I don't see pushing these real hard. I would guess that I will end up with a 2-250 WPC amp driving these. And at that, I'm not much of a rocker so they won't get much of a workout. This would mostly be in the interest of making these clones as authentic as possible.

[speakerdave]

As I continue to think about this, I'm wondering if the 2235H wouldn't be a better choice? The porting on my enclosures is very close to the 4355's which featured the 2235H's. It looks as though the 2235H might be more available actually.

Any thoughts on that?

I agree with this. Fat chance, basically, of finding four clean 2231's. Also, I tried 2235H's in my 4333a's in place of the 2231's. Although I went back to the 2231's because I didn't think the 2235's worked well with the built-in 800Hz midrange high-pass, the bass of the 2235's was better. In your 4350 clone there is the additional midbass driver and there is no built-in mid-bass high pass to be concerned with. To me 2235H's (2225/2235 frames with new kits) would no doubt be the better option.

[Ian Mackenzie]

These days finding a 2231H, 2335H (or a 2231A) with the original cone is unlikely due to the fact that the original cone put in the basket by the factory would have been replaced with a Jbl recone after 10 years as a BAU service requirement. That means it will be a 2235 cone kit.

I have serviced my 2231A at least twice by the Jbl importer. Same with my 2231H drivers.

Any used drivers are most likely to have jbl 2235 kits in them or after market kits. The 2235 kits have improved power handling and a progressive spider to minimise DC offset according to Jbl engineers.

If your using this for domestic purposes don’t worry about it. It would be nice to have matched baskets but what’s more important is the condition of the cone kit and all it’s moving parts. A good technician will do a full visual inspection of the cone assembly and how it sits in the basket, then repair or replace anything required. You don’t know how the drivers were treated over the life of the cone kit. For example you don’t know if mass rings were slapping the top plate. It’s worth getting than done at the outset.

In the 4350/4355 4 way systems the drivers are only operating up to 250 hertz with an 18 dB per octave low pass active crossover. The mid range response is irrelevant.

[lakebilly]

After an hour long phone conversation with a fellow LH member, I'm heading down the road of four 2235H's. His advice to me was to buy four 2225h's and recone them into 2235H's. The 2225H's are fairly available and not terribly expensive.

[lakebilly]

A quick update. I found that if I move the crossover to the opposite side, all of the wires are long enough to reach their respective drivers without extending them. One down, one to go.

Also, I swapped out the 075 bullet tweeters for 077 slot tweeters. It's my understanding that the 077 is nearly identical to the 2405.

I'll post more pictures once I get the 2235H's installed.

[macaroonie]

I would be buying 4 of these before the supply dries up.

https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-2235h-c8r2235-recone-kit/

these are gen JBL including the mass ring.

[lakebilly]

I just completed the purchase of four 2225H's on the big E. I should have them late this week.

Does anybody have experience with any authorized JBL repair shops in the general vicinity of Fort Wayne, IN?


Cities within three hours that I can drive to:

South Bend - Mishawaka - Elkhart
Indianapolis
Kalamazoo
Detroit
Toledo
Cleveland
Chicago

[macaroonie]

Billy watch this vid. It's not that difficult a process if you take your time and keep it neat and tidy. The hardest thing to get dead right is the glue line on the dust cap .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6CCrLz-Zts

If you get the recone kits I linked to a few posts ago , they are pre assembled so it's a much less complicated process than in the vid above.

M

[lakebilly]

Billy watch this vid. It's not that difficult a process if you take your time and keep it neat and tidy. The hardest thing to get dead right is the glue line on the dust cap .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6CCrLz-Zts

If you get the recone kits I linked to a few posts ago , they are pre assembled so it's a much less complicated process than in the vid above.

M

Between my bathtub caulking skills and my soldering ability I could get through a recone. It actually looks pretty easy.

And, I'm all about saving some dollar$.

Now, I just need to find some authentic JBL C8R2235H cone kits.

[lakebilly]

I would be buying 4 of these before the supply dries up.

https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-2235h-c8r2235-recone-kit/

these are gen JBL including the mass ring.


I'll call the speaker exchange and see what they'll do for me. Thanks!

[lakebilly]

Just a quick update. I discovered the "Speaker Workshop" right here in Fort Wayne, website - WWW.RECONE.COM (http://WWW.RECONE.COM). They are an authorized JBL speaker repair center. They will recone my 2225H's into 2235H's for less than what I can buy C8R2235H cone kits for. Between buying the 2225H baskets and the recone, I'll have about $275.00 in each driver. I'm hoping to recover around 50% of that by selling the LE15's and the 2215's.

Tom is the owner of the place and knows his stuff. No hesitation whatsoever when I told him what I wanted to do. As he stated off the cuff, "2225 to 2235? Oh Yeah, No Problem"

I'll keep you posted.

[macaroonie]

Well well , thats a result. I would ask to have a look at a recone job that they have done just to check it's all neat and tidy , no glue splurges etc. Probably wont be , they have been on the go for a good few years.
Other thing is to check if you can that the recones are actually C8R2235. ie the genuine article. Again , i'm sure they will be , but you know ......

[JeffW]

Other thing is to check if you can that the recones are actually C8R2235. ie the genuine article. Again , i'm sure they will be , but you know ......

Yeah, this can't be emphasized strongly enough. Make absolutely certain you know exactly what kits he's installing for less than the cost of a JBL re-cone kit.

[speakerdave]

Red flags for me, too.

[lakebilly]

Yeah, this can't be emphasized strongly enough. Make absolutely certain you know exactly what kits he's installing for less than the cost of a JBL re-cone kit.

I will check this out closely. It's got to be a genuine JBL cone.

[macaroonie]

Should be in a box like this

85923