New project?

[panos29]

O.k
A very happy new year to everybody here!
As I am a new member I got a question that may seem super stupid, but I really got to ask.
The question is:
I recently built a back loaded, front firing horn using a pair of Tannoy Monitor HPD385 (15"concentric)( http://audio.dynatech.gr/horny.htm (http://audio.dynatech.gr/horny.htm) )The sound is really awesome at least compared to my previous MTM speakers from JM labs.
The question is, since now I am hooked on "big" sound, I am allready in the process of deciding upon my next project, something with better drivers, I had in mind something like a 12 or 15" altec or JBL mated to an HF horn driver. Do you have any proposals upon this? My initial thought is a bass reflex or horn loaded 15" and an HF horn on top like an 802 with 511 or asomething else.
Moreover which is a prefered HF driver with smooth response from 800 to 20kHz and what it is a reasonable price to pay for?
I know most of my questions are purely a matter of hearing taste and there is no such thing as "the best" I am just searching something very fast with good low and high extension, live feeling and easily driven from my 10W se tube amp or my 40W PP tube amp.

Best regards to everybody,

Panos

[Mr. Widget]

Moreover which is a prefered HF driver with smooth response from 800 to 20kHz and what it is a reasonable price to pay for? Unfortunately, in reality this is something of a search for the Holy Grail. It really doesn't exist. At least not yet.

Sure there are Altec and JBL two ways (and others) where the tech sheets claim a flat response to 20KHz... to quote the late Paul Klipsch, "Bullshit."

The closest I have come upon is the TAD 4003 driver on their own purpose built horn called the TH-4003. This combo is extremely expensive at $4800 per channel! Here is an on axis response curve I made comparing the TAD 4001 driver on one of my Westlake (2397 type) horns compared to the TAD 4003 horn/driver combo. The HF response of the 4003 combo is exceptionally good out to about 15KHz. The response between 2KHz and 10KHz is simply amazing.

For the record the response of the JBL 2441 on the Westlake horn is remarkably similar to the TAD 4001 on the same horn with TAD showing only a slight improvement in the upper range. I have found that even after adding EQ to the driver the HF response doesn't "sound as good" as the HF response when using a proper tweeter.

Good luck on your quest!

Widget

In looking at this plot please disregard any information below 400Hz. Also be aware that this is not a quasi-anechoic measurement so room reflections are affecting the response a bit. This is shown up in the overall roughness of the plots.

[Zilch]

Two-way systems are inherently attractive to many of us, and we're always on the lookout for ways to make it happen.

The most successful approach by JBL to date has been 4425, 4430, & 4435, all "quasi-three-way" systems incorporating a clever scheme of passive augmentation of the last octave.

They don't quite make it to 20 Khz, though, and there are limitations as to how far both drivers and horns can be pushed before turning to trash.

Most disturbing in spec inflation of late is "system" rating, i.e., using the requisite (often proprietary) active EQ controller. :banghead:

[Earl K]

Hi Panos

Welcome to Lansing Heritage .

My advice ; I'd settle back and listen to your new horn project for about a 1/2 year - before stirring the "pot of discontent" ( and everything that brings ) . I think your back-loaded horn concept was a "spot-on" idea for those components . I'd suggest playing around with speaker placements to optimize the distance between those boxes. After listening to my cousins HPD315s ( with a couch width spread ) I thought they could benefit ( for imaging purposes ) from a closer spacing ( just a thought at the time ).

I've just returned from Montreal where I listened to my cousins' Tannoy HPD 315 , 12" dual-concentrics. Also on that trips "agenda" was the intent to install some "bypass caps" into the stock HPD crossovers. After a brief listen I decided to postpone any such modification until further listening evaluations are done ( this might be in Spring-time ). The stock crossovers have a very nice "mild-voicing" that could easily be changed, - though I'd be very reluctant to suggest that any "ad hoc" changes would be for the better . After disassembling the stock crossovers, I realized the original components are, if anything , very under-rated ( quality-wise ) by the "must-tweak" crowd .

IMHO, for you to step beyond what you presently have , will require a large investment into some of JBLs' latest transducers ( with maybe an Altec HF driver ) all arranged in an MTM fashion to preserve the "point-source" imaging that you currently enjoy. That suggests 1500Al or 1500Fe woofers with a suitable compression driver.

The currently active "Project May" ( which uses large JBL components ) is winding its' way towards a completion. Hopefully its completion, will also provide some guidance for DIYers, by offering up answers to some of the outstanding "design and implemetantion questions" for MTM arrangements. This could be 6 months off - hence my first piece of advice .


regards <. Earl K

[scott fitlin]

Welcome to the forum! Nice cabinets, nice woodwork, nice drivers, I like the foam filled voids!

:D

[panos29]

Thank you all for the answers!
My intention is to build a second system using, were possible vintage drivers as I kinda like this sound, effortless with great dynamics and esily driven to high SPL, although I never listen to more than 105 dB maximum. I choosen the JBL-Altec way as these items used to be nice priced concidering the quality of engineering you get. To tell the trouth I was thinking specifically a 288 compression driver with its horn and a 416B as a woofer in a bass reflex or onken arrangement and asked for any similar proposals from vintage JBLs. I have heard once an TAD 1601 mated with a tad 4001 and I was astonished but the price range is not for my wallet. Thaus I would love some proposal for altec and or JBL. I will possibly start that project in 6-10 months but I am searching from now on. The sound of Tannoy is among the best I have heard till today and love it but it is too relaxed and not so fast as I would like.

Best regards to everybody.

[Mr. Widget]

You should be able to put together a very nice system with an Altec 288 and 416. You will not have extreme low bass or extreme highs but with care the most important part of the spectrum can be handled pretty well by those components. You will probably find that a bit of EQ will be necessary if you want a neutral sound.

My point about the holy grail was more academic. If you understand where you will need to make compromises you can make intelligent choices. It seems you already understand that. :thmbsup:

Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ahhhah, The great Panos 29,

Its macka, welcome to the cools forum on JBls. Enjoy.

Are you still using the Alephs?

I like those Tannoy enclosures.

There are lots of possibilities but as an initial step to let you put your toe in the water using JBL, I recommend the JBL 2344a horn with an 8 inch JBL 2118 or 2123 mid cone and a JBL 2235 woofer, using affordable 2421/2425/2426 1 inch JBL driver would be an impressive 3 way.

I suggest this because it will have better bass extension, greater midrange accuracy, superb highs and nice imaging on your diy amps. The box is not hard to make and easy to set up. Robert Hamel on our forums has also made this design which I heard when in New York last May & got my vote for the best diy JBL sound while on tour in the USA.

PM me if you require more information.:cool:

Ian

[panos29]

Hehehe thats funny! Me great? No way Ian,
Anyway, its a great pleasure to see you around Ian, what a small world this is!
So, what I thing I found in reading some threads of this forum, is that most people here prefer using JBLs and not Altecs.
Thats one, the other is that most prefer bass reflex alignment and not horns(for lows) .
On the other hand my short experience with horns is that i love that dynamic horny sound, although my room is small.
However I like two way designs better and not three ways, although I may add a supertweeter... Anyway on the route of 416B plus 802,288etc what is the equivalent from JBL(vintage and cheap)? And yes 40Hz is more than enough bottom end as well as 16kHz (my hearing is less than 17K certified!)
Lovely project this May one! though, way over the top for my room-wallet but excellent idea and realisation anyway, not to mention the impressive drivers!
As for my amps I do not use my aleph clones anymore as I find more suited to tannoys my 6C33 10W S.E and also my KT88 P-P.

Nice to hear from you again Ian!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hehehe thats funny! Me great? No way Ian,
However I like two way designs better and not three ways, although I may add a supertweeter... Anyway on the route of 416B plus 802,288etc what is the equivalent from JBL(vintage and cheap)?
Nice to hear from you again Ian!
Yes, I keep turning on up in the Tardis all over the place.

Not sure there is one, the 4430 might be the preferred alternative as a knockup JBL system. The Altec double agents around stay in hiding until dark!

Panos, you might search for some threads on the JBL scoops as some members have reported impressive results with them.


Keep in touch,

Ian

[david yost]

I have been collecting parts for a big 2-way like the one you are thinking about. As I am a big Altec fan, I intend to use 288H drivers on EV HR9040 CD horns with something like the Hiraga compensation over either 416-8B loaded 817 boxes or MTM style in BR cabs tuned to about 35Hz. If I use the 817s I have, I will supplement the bottom end with some Fostex 800cm woofers I picked up several years ago. I am currently using the Fostex in a IB HT system and they are superb.

As far as the Altec v. JBL thing, I lean more towards Altec for musicality...but the stock cabinets like 825, 828. 620 etc. will need to be modified/reinforced
to perform their best. My JBL experience is limited to UREI 813Cs that I use as LCR in my HT. They are very nice for this IMO.

Good luck with your project....I am sure that whichever way you choose to go, the execution will be superb.

David