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DerekTheGreat
07-12-2019, 05:29 AM
Hello everyone!

I'm Derek and this is my first post to the forum after much reading and such. I in no way consider myself to be "great" haha. That just came from what I named my Warrior in Diablo I all those years ago. Royal warrior should have some sort of fancy name, right? I've always been a JBL fan, never heard of them until I got a set to compliment some Bose 301's I think they were. Dad (I was 16 or 17 at the time) picked up a set of JBL Northridge S26II's for Christmas which were substantially cheaper than the 301's. Well, they sounded substantially better in every way! Bose stuff couldn't handle the 75 watt Kenwood they were hooked up to and sounded muddy unless I was listening at low levels, real good with spoken voice but that's it. Anyway, I dug deeper into JBL history & lore and really became hooked on them after listening but then after learning that most studios back in the day were outfitted with JBL monitors and then I began to pay attention when I went to concerts and saw JBL's everywhere... Later bought a 1988 Lincoln Town Car with the optional Ford-JBL sound system and it is incredible, really advanced for the time if you ask me. Receiver that acted as a preamp and fed a separate big ole honking amplifier in the trunk. Incredible at any volume. The speakers I use in other cars, as to this day they're hard to beat when acquired for the junkyard pickin' price..

Anyway, about a three months ago I seriously started getting into vintage audio gear. My dad had a Marantz 2275 he bought new and kept up until I was about ten. I always loved the look of it and said I'd get one some day. Well, I never expected them to be so expensive or desirable so it took awhile to get to a place where now I can start having fun :D I listen to mostly rock from the 50's to present. I like stuff that sounds organic and like five people can sit down and make music with minimal equipment. I will listen to highly polished stuff like Steely Dan or the Eagles, those guys are great too. New Kid in Town or Hotel California. Euphoria to my ears. Or Spill the Wine by War. Close eyes. Drift away... Well I wanted to recreate a decent system from back in the day to better enjoy my favorite music and channel my dad somewhat..

Long story short of it is I had a pair of JBL LX44's I had refoamed and then purchased a Marantz 4300 to power them. Well, that sounded really good but I felt the Marantz was over kill for those LX's. So I hopped on Craigslist and began searching for their replacement.. I chose the L150A's over a set of Klipsch Cornwalls. I unfortunately couldn't listen to them so I pushed the woofers in gently at the time and didn't notice any rubbing. Cabinets looked pretty good overall, none of the dust caps were pushed in and the seller claimed a recent refoam job on all the drivers. Score, right? Well, I didn't get them for $20 like all the other threads I've seen though haha.. Anyway, I get them home, hook them to the 4300 and I immediately noticed the woofers made a popping sound at higher volumes, like the voice coil reach maximum excursion or something. I am no way an expert, this experience has been teaching me so much.. Well so I did more reading and come to find out that the L150A's are supposedly power hungry and that many say you really make these things shine when you feed them 200watts or more. Great. I have to spend more money... So I went and bought me a Marantz 3600 Pre-Amp and then a Marantz 510M power amp to match. (Anyone want a minty 4300???) Oh god, they were right! The soundstage was fuller, more articulate and the bass was fuller and richer than before. I let that go for a few days and then tried the test.. Hotel California, right where the drum kicks in in the beginning.. ...Dum-dum-POP! Sadness. Woofers still pop when driven semi hard. I took both woofers out and can't tell if they've been reconed before or not. The back sides are nice and textury as I've seen in other people's photos with white crayon like model numbers on them. Color is a blackish purple. Fronts are white as they should be. Maybe they were painted? I dunno. When I push the woofers out by hand gently, I can feel something rubbing, which must be the popping I hear. So I read if you flip the woofers 180 degrees you might be able to eliminate that popping. Did that. Much better but still there. Then I contacted a well known JBL specialist in the area and went to get her evaluation. She definitely noticed something when they were on the bench. Suggested the previous refoam job wasn't done right and re did the one woofer. Still noticed the pop on both speakers but one does it way sooner than the other. Can't remember which one was done. So I talked with her again yesterday and now we're going to try a full recone but I'm going to lose that trademark white woofer...

Questions boil down to:
1) What do you guys think the problem is and have you encountered this before?? What fixed it or is this normal?
2) Can I paint the woofers white or will this color/change the sound? If you recommend painting, what color/product is the best match?
3) I need to touch up the low gloss black on the front of the cabinets. What product is the best match for touchups?

Thank you so much for reading through my long winded first post! I appreciate all input, feel free to go off topic too.

DerekTheGreat
07-15-2019, 03:49 AM
35 views and not a single response?

So no one has encountered a woofer which pops when driven moderately hard?

No one has an accurate recommendation of paint to match JBL's low gloss black found on a L150A?

No one has an accurate recommendation of paint to match JBL's white on the 128H woofer?

sguttag
07-15-2019, 04:56 AM
I haven't encountered the problem you speak of but there shouldn't be ANY rubbing.

The JBL 128H (white) cone kits are still available from JBL so you should be able to get the original look. The only thing that will be notably different is the glue that holds the dome down. At the factory, they used a different glue plus accelerant to get the hard glue ring that doesn't run/sink. When gluing down the dome on an Aquaplas driver, as the glue dries, it will sink some and also separate a little so you will see a bit violet color around the edges of the glue. It is also very hard to get a uniform ring on an aqualas driver as the surface of the cone is quite rough so again, the glue will want to run with the surface regardless of how the tech laid the glue down.

If a full recone is being done, be sure that the air gap is checked for clearance. It should allow a .057" pin to pass through the entire way around (though it will be quite snug, it shouldn't bind). I have had to tell some customers, over the years, that a pole piece has shifted and that we cannot recone the driver anymore. I have heard that there are some places that will attempt to recenter a permanent magnet driver but I'm definitely not one of them.

Mr. Widget
07-15-2019, 07:59 AM
35 views and not a single response?

So no one has encountered a woofer which pops when driven moderately hard?

No one has an accurate recommendation of paint to match JBL's low gloss black found on a L150A?

No one has an accurate recommendation of paint to match JBL's white on the 128H woofer?Patience my friend... welcome to the LH Forum.

If your local reconer says the new cone will be gray instead of white it may be a JBL 128H-1 kit or an aftermarket kit. Correct replacement kits from JBL have become more and more rare. I'm not even sure if any new recone kits are being manufactured. Everything in the supply chain may be from past production... don't know, I'm just speculating.

In any event, I don't know what the difference is between the 128H-1 and the 128H, could be cosmetic, could be more significant. I would only go with an after market kit as a last resort. If your reconer can't get the correct white 128H kits, it is possible to find NOS kits, or perhaps a different repair shop has a pair in their inventory.

Also, I would not paint the cone white. It will never really look right and you will be changing it's mass and may cause other problems.


Widget

DerekTheGreat
07-15-2019, 09:40 AM
I haven't encountered the problem you speak of but there shouldn't be ANY rubbing.

The JBL 128H (white) cone kits are still available from JBL so you should be able to get the original look. The only thing that will be notably different is the glue that holds the dome down. At the factory, they used a different glue plus accelerant to get the hard glue ring that doesn't run/sink. When gluing down the dome on an Aquaplas driver, as the glue dries, it will sink some and also separate a little so you will see a bit violet color around the edges of the glue. It is also very hard to get a uniform ring on an aqualas driver as the surface of the cone is quite rough so again, the glue will want to run with the surface regardless of how the tech laid the glue down.

If a full recone is being done, be sure that the air gap is checked for clearance. It should allow a .057" pin to pass through the entire way around (though it will be quite snug, it shouldn't bind). I have had to tell some customers, over the years, that a pole piece has shifted and that we cannot recone the driver anymore. I have heard that there are some places that will attempt to recenter a permanent magnet driver but I'm definitely not one of them.

I've looked and searched other threads and such, no such luck for the white woofer. These are the best I can come up with:
https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-128h-1-aftermarket-recone-kit/
https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-128h-1-c8r128h1-recone-kit/

I really hope the pole piece is ok. Hopefully she knows to check that. Says she's been doing JBL's since 1980...


Patience my friend... welcome to the LH Forum.

If your local reconer says the new cone will be gray instead of white it may be a JBL 128H-1 kit or an aftermarket kit. Correct replacement kits from JBL have become more and more rare. I'm not even sure if any new recone kits are being manufactured. Everything in the supply chain may be from past production... don't know, I'm just speculating.

In any event, I don't know what the difference is between the 128H-1 and the 128H, could be cosmetic, could be more significant. I would only go with an after market kit as a last resort. If your reconer can't get the correct white 128H kits, it is possible to find NOS kits, or perhaps a different repair shop has a pair in their inventory.

Also, I would not paint the cone white. It will never really look right and you will be changing it's mass and may cause other problems.


Widget

She says the cone will be black, or like the ones I linked above which are like the ones already on my woofers, a dark purplish color. I've stressed that if the texture on the rear of the new cones she ordered doesn't match my originals then I'd like her to order one of the kits above. I'm really not sure if my woofers have already been reconed. The guy I bought them off of told me they were refoamed, that was it. The pics I've see of other 128H's online vary from the textured rear cone to a smooth rear cone. I've got NFC, other than I'd like them to perform again. Take it from me, never buy a used speaker unless you can listen to it yourself. It's looking like I should have sold these things rather than deal with it.. I wonder if I would have been better off with the Cornwalls...

I don't like the idea of painting them, honestly. But, I'm sure if they aren't white then the value of these things goes right in the toilet. I normally wouldn't care too much about value but the idea was to sell these once I got (and liked) a set of L220's. If you guys know the chemistry of this so called AquaPlas I might be able to whip something up in the lab to duplicate it and spray them myself. Otherwise I'm at the reconer's mercy and I just emailed her with the go ahead to paint the new woofer should she not be able to reuse my original cones.

Thank you for the replies fellas, I do appreciate it. Normally I am a patient dude but since the woofers have been dropped off I feel I'm running out of time to make a final decision on how to proceed. If anyone knows where I can get a full recone kit with the original white woofers, let me know. But I'd probably need to know by Wednesday..

sguttag
07-15-2019, 01:59 PM
I don't want to argue with you. I'm a certified JBL Pro reconer and I checked TODAY and the C8R128 comes up as an orderable part and the system implies that if I ordered today it would ship within 24-hours.

Do what you want.

Chris Brown
07-15-2019, 02:42 PM
As an owner of a set of L150's, I have personally had my 128H woofers pop on several occasions. A loud, heart-stopping THWACK! as the voice coil hits the pole piece. In my case it was always because I was pushing them too hard with bass heavy content. Nothing I could honestly fault the speakers for. I power mine with 700wpc. Some songs, particularly those with a lot of extremely low-frequency bass, are more "risky" in this regard when playing very loud. Without being there or having any objective measurements to go on, it's difficult to compare your situation to mine. Is it possible that you are simply expecting too much of them? If you're accustomed to playing loud using large subs and are expecting something similar from these, this could easily be the result. They aren't subwoofers and they have their limits, which you must respect (something I end up having to remind myself of, more often than I'd like).

If they were refoamed poorly, to where the cone is not in it's proper resting location, it could end up hitting the pole piece at less excursion than it should. You see this often when the foam gets glued to the front of the cone instead of the rear, as that sets the cone back compared to where it's intended to be.

Another thing you might check are the passive radiators. They function in place of a port, and have a direct impact on how the woofer functions. The weights on the back of the passive radiator are adjustable by adding or removing some of the cardboard discs. Have these been adjusted in the past that you know of? It may be allowing the woofer cone to move more freely than intended at the problem frequency.

Mr. Widget
07-15-2019, 05:21 PM
Another thing you might check are the passive radiators. They function in place of a port, and have a direct impact on how the woofer functions. The weights on the back of the passive radiator are adjustable by adding or removing some of the cardboard discs. Have these been adjusted in the past that you know of? It may be allowing the woofer cone to move more freely than intended at the problem frequency.Or air leaks! If the woofers or the passive radiators are leaking due to micro cracks in the surrounds, or other air leaks, this would also cause the driver to unload and could lead to the VC bottoming out.

It sounds like the correct kits are still available. I would work with someone who can get the correct kits ASAP before they are NLA.
I would also check out the passive radiators.


Widget

Ian Mackenzie
07-15-2019, 09:26 PM
Hi Derek,

As Chris points out have the passive radiator and the driver checked out.

It’s possible that the system is being over driven or that the passive radiator is not loading the woofer effectively. Sometimes drivers will start sagging if left in the one position without use for a long time,

You may also want to consider a sub sonic filter to remove low bass information that would otherwise cause large driver excursions below the system resonance. Typically this is at or below 30 hertz. These consumer systems are usually tuned between 29-34 hertz and of tuned correctly will demonstrate maximum loading in the driver in this region and the passive radiator will be doing all the work.

My suggestion to get both enclosures checked out and go on the recommendations of your reconer.

DerekTheGreat
07-16-2019, 04:13 AM
I don't want to argue with you. I'm a certified JBL Pro reconer and I checked TODAY and the C8R128 comes up as an orderable part and the system implies that if I ordered today it would ship within 24-hours.

Do what you want.

:confused: I'm not sure why you were offended with my last message, it isn't my intent to argue on here, but to learn. Nor am I trying to imply you don't have experience. I was simply illustrating that I'm not the typical newbie and provide background information; I tried my best to search and find the right parts but came back empty handed. For example, C8R128 is indeed the correct part number but the pics displayed in the links I've linked on here or came across otherwise either show a black woofer without texture on the rear side or the purplish woofer like already on my speakers but without the white AquaPlas coating. If anything, I was hoping you or someone else could point me in the direction of a source who still has NOS 128H recone kits in stock or who wouldn't mind parting from a pair. If the link you mentioned is the right part with white AquaPlas on the woofer, please let me know how to order it, I'd really appreciate it.


As an owner of a set of L150's, I have personally had my 128H woofers pop on several occasions. A loud, heart-stopping THWACK! as the voice coil hits the pole piece. In my case it was always because I was pushing them too hard with bass heavy content. Nothing I could honestly fault the speakers for. I power mine with 700wpc. Some songs, particularly those with a lot of extremely low-frequency bass, are more "risky" in this regard when playing very loud. Without being there or having any objective measurements to go on, it's difficult to compare your situation to mine. Is it possible that you are simply expecting too much of them? If you're accustomed to playing loud using large subs and are expecting something similar from these, this could easily be the result. They aren't subwoofers and they have their limits, which you must respect (something I end up having to remind myself of, more often than I'd like).

If they were refoamed poorly, to where the cone is not in it's proper resting location, it could end up hitting the pole piece at less excursion than it should. You see this often when the foam gets glued to the front of the cone instead of the rear, as that sets the cone back compared to where it's intended to be.

Another thing you might check are the passive radiators. They function in place of a port, and have a direct impact on how the woofer functions. The weights on the back of the passive radiator are adjustable by adding or removing some of the cardboard discs. Have these been adjusted in the past that you know of? It may be allowing the woofer cone to move more freely than intended at the problem frequency.

Or air leaks! If the woofers or the passive radiators are leaking due to micro cracks in the surrounds, or other air leaks, this would also cause the driver to unload and could lead to the VC bottoming out.

It sounds like the correct kits are still available. I would work with someone who can get the correct kits ASAP before they are NLA.
I would also check out the passive radiators.


Widget
Thank you for the replies, Chris & Widget!
Driving them too hard has crossed my mind. Initially they were powered with a 100wpc Marantz 4300, and I heard the popping with that with the volume at about 66 or 75% on something like Steely Dan or Hotel California by the Eagles. So I thought they were underpowered as I came across information from other Forums where people said L150's really need 200wpc or more to shine. I thought I was causing them to clip.. So I went and spent more money on a Marantz 510M and Marantz 3600 preamp. Still the same problem. So I flipped the woofers 180 degrees after more reading and that made a big difference. One woofer hardly did it any more and the other could be pushed much harder before I'd get that pop. The only real bass heavy track I listened to is "You Can't Touch This" by MC Hammer just to immediately see if what I did made a difference. The subwoofer & floor standers downstairs (Two JBL Northridge E250P's & a pair of E90's) Handled it no problem. They're powered by a Marantz SR7005. Interesting to note that the L150A's were playing significantly louder and that like others mentioned, I've got that system crossed over so the subs handle everything below 60 or 90hz as they're only 8 inchers.

But, when I had the woofers out I moved the woofer up as and could feel what seemed to be the voice coil rubbing on the pole piece or something. There was still about 1/4" of travel left. I assume this is the cause for the noise I hear when the woofer quickly hits that rub spot, kinda sounded similar when I quickly did it by hand.. Which also caused me to hop even further onto the "these need to be reconed or refoamed" train.

I have not looked into the passive radiators. They were also refoamed. Woofers look fine though, surrounds seem nice and supple and I believe each has four cardboard discs on the back. How can I test if they're sealed properly? Any sort of tap on the 128H's causes them to move and if you tap the radiators, the 128H woofer will move too. Seeing as the volume inside the cabinet is large I'm surprised to see that. So I assume they're sealed? However, if I hold either woofer back, the other will return to it's original resting position within short order. Both cabinets behave similarly.


Hi Derek,

As Chris points out have the passive radiator and the driver checked out.

It’s possible that the system is being over driven or that the passive radiator is not loading the woofer effectively. Sometimes drivers will start sagging if left in the one position without use for a long time,

You may also want to consider a sub sonic filter to remove low bass information that would otherwise cause large driver excursions below the system resonance. Typically this is at or below 30 hertz. These consumer systems are usually tuned between 29-34 hertz and of tuned correctly will demonstrate maximum loading in the driver in this region and the passive radiator will be doing all the work.

My suggestion to get both enclosures checked out and go on the recommendations of your reconer.

Thank you for the response, Ian!

My preamp does have a 30hz filter and I was thinking of using it. I just haven't because I read some sales literature for the 150's and I remember reading something along the lines of "If the bass information is there, you will hear it." And I very much like how these things sound, especially at lower volumes. But I could just enable the filter for when I'm listening hard. Also, I listen to rock & roll mostly, nothing with artificial beats or drum machines aside from that MC Hammer tune to test woofer excursion. How would I go about tuning the radiators? Wouldn't I want to add more mass, not less? I'm not sure at all.

You're right about the driver sag. I read about that on another forum or maybe it was a thread from this one. How I got the idea to flip my woofers 180 degrees and that pretty much cleared up everything. Which is what got me on the track of "I need to have these refoamed or reconed." Initially my reconer thought they might need to just be refoamed. On her test bench the one sounded like it had a rattle at 30hz but she tried to recenter the cone with a new refoam job and it didn't change anything. The other woofer she couldn't get to make the noise, must be the one I really don't have a problem with.. But she said she didn't like the idea of a recone, told me the white woofers were discontinued and wanted to try and save mine. Although honestly, I don't think mine are originals. The cones' backside reads "129H". What does that say to you guys? She said they were though. I would just expect that for a woofer from 1982ish would be dirtier or something like the photos I've seen online. I've still got a lot to learn though!

Thanks again for the replies and your time, I really appreciate them!

Ian Mackenzie
07-16-2019, 04:57 AM
Without a pic it’s hard to know.

Btw adding a sub into the system might be a good idea when you want to turn it up and cross the L150’s at a point that lowers the excursion on the woofers.

DerekTheGreat
07-16-2019, 05:08 AM
I'll see if I have any pics of my woofers but they look exactly like these only the chalk marks say 129H and the fronts are white. Which is why I don't think mine are original..
https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-128h-1-aftermarket-recone-kit/

But, when I look at the discontinued, 100% accurate recone kit, the woofer is like mine, AquaPlas on the front, purplish textured rear... https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-128h-c8r128h-recone-kit/

Would a 2213H fit and be a suitable replacement??
https://reverb.com/item/25895014-jbl-12-8ohm-speaker-woofer-2213h-grey

sguttag
07-16-2019, 05:17 AM
Any JBL Pro recone center can order the part but what we can't do is sell them as a retail part. They can only be sold as part of a recone. So whomever you are using to recone your drivers, if they are a genuine JBL recone center can get the proper cone kit for you. You won't (or shouldn't) find them for sale on line since it is a violation of JBL's rules. We can sell diaphragms all day long but not recone kits. I'm not saying that you won't find some place that will, I'm saying that they are not supposed to. However, taking your drivers to a JBL recone center should get you the cones you want in your drivers.

DerekTheGreat
07-16-2019, 07:43 AM
Any JBL Pro recone center can order the part but what we can't do is sell them as a retail part. They can only be sold as part of a recone. So whomever you are using to recone your drivers, if they are a genuine JBL recone center can get the proper cone kit for you. You won't (or shouldn't) find them for sale on line since it is a violation of JBL's rules. We can sell diaphragms all day long but not recone kits. I'm not saying that you won't find some place that will, I'm saying that they are not supposed to. However, taking your drivers to a JBL recone center should get you the cones you want in your drivers.

Really? I wish I had known that before I dropped them off with her. She might've been part of a JBL outfit years ago but it's a solo thing for her now. I looked her up specifically because I had my LX44's refoamed by a local place and wasn't happy with them.

WELL.. I just looked up service centers and she came up in the search...
https://pro.harman.com/service_centers?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q%5Bstate_eq%5D=MI&q%5Bservice_groups_name_eq%5D=&commit=Search

Don't know why she is telling me that the part isn't available then. Believe me, we spent at least an hour discussing stuff. Could you order them? What happens when you try and place an order? I'd like the proper cone!

rdgrimes
07-16-2019, 08:05 AM
Isn't the 128H one of them with 2 different cones seen coming from the factory? I seem to recall that they used different foam surrounds on the 2 different revisions. I don't suppose it would matter if you're re-coning, but there still might be more than one part number floating around?

short_circutz2
07-16-2019, 09:23 AM
Although honestly, I don't think mine are originals. The cones' backside reads "129H".

So, your 128H drivers were reconed with 129H kits?

According to the "goes into" pdf at https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Goes%2520Into%2520List/Goes%2520Into%2520List.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwis4avD6bnjAhUKOs0KHacGDL0QFjAAegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw19LTUAmLiwbot_wVbhXMuBb, the C8R129H recone kit is not shown to be compatible with the 128H.

Robh3606
07-16-2019, 10:28 AM
The 129 and 128-1 are exact acoustic replacements for each other

https://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L65B%20ts.pdf

Rob:):)

DerekTheGreat
07-16-2019, 11:38 AM
Yes, I believe my original woofers were replaced with 129's and then sprayed white. I've never seen an actual AquaPlas driver up close to be able to visually make a distinction. I definitely lost my biscuits on this deal.

sguttag
07-16-2019, 02:13 PM
Derek,

If she is a JBL recone center, ask her to try again via the Harman Portal. Both the C8R128H and C8R128H-1 come up. I was able to drop a pair of C8R128H in my cart and when I checked on the "committed date" I got today's date, not something in the distant future (implies you are waiting for the next batch if it is a month out, or possibly never if it is a year or more out).

Again, any authorized center can get them, at the moment. And, they are significantly less expensive than they used to be (a warning sign that they are not made in the US (no surprise). I've done 128H and it was a pricey recone and is a pain to get the doming glue to lay pretty (I like a perfect ring but with the sand like nature of the aquaplas, good luck).

DavidF
07-16-2019, 06:53 PM
Yes, I believe my original woofers were replaced with 129's and then sprayed white. I've never seen an actual AquaPlas driver up close to be able to visually make a distinction. I definitely lost my biscuits on this deal.

Well, par for the course for newbies. Plenty of similar stories abound in this forum. Including mine when I got a pair of 128H woofers with old and tired spiders as my first entre into vintage JBL. Bit the bullet and reconed them. I then picked up a nice set of 128H-1 woofers and found I preferred them more, including the dark woofers. Memory from back then says that the -1 was slightly different in the compliance specs, perhaps a different spider. The 129H was the same build but with a cone assembly with a higher mass. The 128H and the -1 are pretty darn close sonically in my experience.

So keep up the effort.

DerekTheGreat
07-17-2019, 03:34 AM
Derek,

If she is a JBL recone center, ask her to try again via the Harman Portal. Both the C8R128H and C8R128H-1 come up. I was able to drop a pair of C8R128H in my cart and when I checked on the "committed date" I got today's date, not something in the distant future (implies you are waiting for the next batch if it is a month out, or possibly never if it is a year or more out).

Again, any authorized center can get them, at the moment. And, they are significantly less expensive than they used to be (a warning sign that they are not made in the US (no surprise). I've done 128H and it was a pricey recone and is a pain to get the doming glue to lay pretty (I like a perfect ring but with the sand like nature of the aquaplas, good luck).

It says she is, at least. Could you provide a link I could then email to her? I'd like to email it to her and then talk to her about it later. When I dropped the woofers off again and began discussing which kit to use she already said she ordered parts. So I'm a bit concerned she's already started working on them. I don't know how to proceed if that is the case, I'm not really a pushy person but I do want them to be right. I feel like it is my fault for not straightening this mess out before coming to her. Really wish I would have joined this forum sooner so I could have gotten this info and then given it to her. I feel like I'll be accepting her job and then taking them straight to somewhere else (so as not to insult her) and paying for yet another recone job. Hell, who knows, maybe I'll enjoy my spray painted incorrect parts?

Lastly, do you get a picture of the parts you're ordering? I'd really like confirmation of a white, AquaPlas woofer before I try and bring this stuff up with her again. Thank you for your patience, you're helping a brother out.


Well, par for the course for newbies. Plenty of similar stories abound in this forum. Including mine when I got a pair of 128H woofers with old and tired spiders as my first entre into vintage JBL. Bit the bullet and reconed them. I then picked up a nice set of 128H-1 woofers and found I preferred them more, including the dark woofers. Memory from back then says that the -1 was slightly different in the compliance specs, perhaps a different spider. The 129H was the same build but with a cone assembly with a higher mass. The 128H and the -1 are pretty darn close sonically in my experience.

So keep up the effort.

Haha yeah, that's me. I did some digging through the JBL Technical Library, Vol. I, No. III, Choosing Low Frequency Transducers and it shows the original 128H's cone to be flat on the back. Is that true? I've only seen this godawful pair on Ebay which appear to be flat on the back but also white on both sides. The rear of the cones look super dingy. Are they original? https://www.ebay.com/itm/332539574999

What did you put your reconed 128H's in? Did you sell them later? If so, were you beat up on the price or did you price them lower due to the recone? Just trying to get a better idea of what I should do if I happen to acquire a set of L220's. Although I might not like the L220's, some people prefer the L150A's to those. The vintage speaker scene is cool but it's a lot like the vintage car scene. So much more beneath the surface to an authenticity nut like myself.

sguttag
07-17-2019, 02:06 PM
The link I have is for a dealer/service center site and not for public posting or distribution. That said, she or any JBL/Harman dealer/service center would access through the same site.

They do not provide photos but that IS the distinction between the 128H and the 128H-1. The -1 is a black cone version. To the point that for the shifted magnet driver I mentioned earlier, JBL sent me 128H-1 drivers (new, this was some time ago) and 128H cone kits in order to get the customer his white cones and be happy. Oddly enough, it was the consumer side of JBL that did it...we are strictly JBL Pro and really just for cinema.

One of my friends built custom speakers back in the 80s and used 128H drivers and when they rotted out, I reconed them for him (hence I have dealt with that driver some though it doesn't come up in cinema). JBL also never authorized a refoam...just recone.

I'm not pulling your leg however, the 128H cone kit really does show as a part that I could order today and it would ship in short order. Perhaps there was a period of time when the 128H was not available (I saw that happen on the LE14H-1...it was available, it stopped, then it showed up and now it is gone again. Luckily, I was able to snag a pair for myself because I have a pair of L250s that needed new foams.

dezmond
07-17-2019, 05:00 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-C8r128h-Recone-Kit-New-Opened-Just-To-Show-It/123839880761?hash=item1cd56e9e39:g:KJAAAOSwlQddL5D m

DerekTheGreat
07-18-2019, 03:26 AM
The link I have is for a dealer/service center site and not for public posting or distribution. That said, she or any JBL/Harman dealer/service center would access through the same site.

They do not provide photos but that IS the distinction between the 128H and the 128H-1. The -1 is a black cone version. To the point that for the shifted magnet driver I mentioned earlier, JBL sent me 128H-1 drivers (new, this was some time ago) and 128H cone kits in order to get the customer his white cones and be happy. Oddly enough, it was the consumer side of JBL that did it...we are strictly JBL Pro and really just for cinema.

One of my friends built custom speakers back in the 80s and used 128H drivers and when they rotted out, I reconed them for him (hence I have dealt with that driver some though it doesn't come up in cinema). JBL also never authorized a refoam...just recone.

I'm not pulling your leg however, the 128H cone kit really does show as a part that I could order today and it would ship in short order. Perhaps there was a period of time when the 128H was not available (I saw that happen on the LE14H-1...it was available, it stopped, then it showed up and now it is gone again. Luckily, I was able to snag a pair for myself because I have a pair of L250s that needed new foams.

Wow, well dezmond just linked a freshly listed recone kit! I'll buy the dammed thing as long as it doesn't go beyond $200. I just need one more... Seeing that link makes me a believer and now I really wish I hadn't acted prematurely on this. If you were local or even semi local I'd have happily given this job to you. Doesn't seem like southeastern Michigan really has any reputable or competent businesses who specialize in this type of thing. It's been a PITA to try and have my Marantz 3600 & 510M restored. I think I might just have to break down and learn this stuff for myself, yet I didn't want to practice on anything that "mattered" so to say. I've got way too much into that Marantz gear to go fumbling it like the novice I am.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-C8r128h-Recone-Kit-New-Opened-Just-To-Show-It/123839880761?hash=item1cd56e9e39:g:KJAAAOSwlQddL5D m

Thanks dezmond! "They do exist!" I need just one more! Someone help!!
Too bad that doesn't have a "buy it now" price as I'm going to have to delegate this to my wife, the resident eBay sniper..

short_circutz2
07-18-2019, 10:18 AM
Yes, I believe my original woofers were replaced with 129's and then sprayed white. I've never seen an actual AquaPlas driver up close to be able to visually make a distinction. I definitely lost my biscuits on this deal.

So, are the motors 128H or 129H? According to the "goes into" doc, recone kits for the 128H and 129H arent interchangeable!

DerekTheGreat
07-18-2019, 11:27 AM
So, are the motors 128H or 129H? According to the "goes into" doc, recone kits for the 128H and 129H arent interchangeable!

They're 128H's..

However, 128-1's and 129's are supposed to be interchangeable according to the info Rob posted:

The 129 and 128-1 are exact acoustic replacements for each other

https://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L65B%20ts.pdf

Rob:):)

Got an email from my reconer and I'm guessing I'm getting 128-1 cones. I haven't seen them but according to her they've got similar texture on the back like my old cones and are black on the front. Since I plan on buying OE cones and having them installed eventually I intend to paint the cones I'm getting. Dug around and found people liked Zinisser Bulls Eye 1-2-3 primer, product #02204 WHITE. Trick is to cut the paint 50/50 with water and apply using a turntable with a Purdy 1" brush. So that's what I'll attempt to do minus the TT as I do not have one other than the ones I use for vinyl. :dont-know:

grumpy
07-18-2019, 03:25 PM
Manually-rotated 'lazy suzan' works OK for this kind of thing. A few bucks at a housewares store.
Also useful for refurbishing speakers drivers in general.

DerekTheGreat
07-19-2019, 03:59 AM
Thank you, Grumpy. When I go to buy the paint & such I'll see what I can find to fit that bill. I'd like to try and refoam a set of speakers one day and learn how to do this for myself.

bedrock602
07-19-2019, 04:39 AM
Don't jump to conclusions, I've learned this the hard way.

If your woofers have the original cones, then I would not rush to tear them out. I would suspect that the foam surrounds, if original, are not doing their job properly. Or, if they were re-foamed, the new surrounds may have been installed incorrectly or simply do not have the proper compliance.

I would buy a refoam kit for your specific woofers from a reputable source and start there. Or, since you are new to all of this, have them professionally re-foamed which will certainly be a better job and they will maintain their value. I am always looking for vintage JBL's and it is discouraging to see drivers that have been re-foamed by careless or inexperienced hands.

It would be nice to see some photos of your drivers, front and back.

DerekTheGreat
07-19-2019, 10:58 AM
Don't jump to conclusions, I've learned this the hard way.

If your woofers have the original cones, then I would not rush to tear them out. I would suspect that the foam surrounds, if original, are not doing their job properly. Or, if they were re-foamed, the new surrounds may have been installed incorrectly or simply do not have the proper compliance.

I would buy a refoam kit for your specific woofers from a reputable source and start there. Or, since you are new to all of this, have them professionally re-foamed which will certainly be a better job and they will maintain their value. I am always looking for vintage JBL's and it is discouraging to see drivers that have been re-foamed by careless or inexperienced hands.

It would be nice to see some photos of your drivers, front and back.

I believe I mentioned earlier that they are not the original cones and my reconer suspected that we might get away with a refoam job. Didn't work.. The kid I bought them off of said they were refoamed, but I bet they were reconed at that time.

Photos will have to wait I suppose. The drivers are out for repair and I'll be able to get new pics once I get them back.

DerekTheGreat
07-20-2019, 10:23 AM
84619
So that's a bad picture but if you blow it up you can make out the "original" cones. Original to me, but not the L150A's that is. Those LX44's are for sale if anyone wants them. Best offer.

DerekTheGreat
07-29-2019, 03:49 AM
I picked my 128H's up this past Saturday. The cones look to be the same or similar to the ones they replaced; dark purple color & textured rear, just no AquaPlas coating of course. I bought that one eBay listing for a true replacement but that's just one cone. So I'll stash that until I find another and need to recone these speakers or another set. In the meantime, if someone needs that recone kit, PM me.

I decided to paint them white using that 1-2-3 paint and the materials I listed earlier. Only it didn't end up working out for us the way it did for the person I got the idea from. A 1:1 dilution with water was too much, and so I ended up coating with 3:2 instead. (150mL paint : 50mL filtered water) Only used about 50mL of paint total, took four coats before the purple was completely hidden. We didn't end up using that 1" Purdy brush at all. Instead we used 1" foam brushes and some fine tip paint brushes to paint around the dust caps & speaker leads and the surrounds to avoid painting parts which we didn't want to be white. My wife did all the detail work around the dust caps & surrounds as my hands are just too jittery for that sort of stuff. We had trouble building up paint on the ridges of the cone and so after painting coats 2-3 with the foam brushes 360 degrees, I dipped the tip of foam brush in the paint and dabbed along the ridges to achieve hiding. A heat gun was used between coats as well as a cake turntable. Hopefully this information will help someone else who finds themselves in this sort of bind.

The results are 100 times better than my wife and I expected. Here are some before and after pics, please let us know what you think, especially about the color. Initially I thought the paint was too "white" (especially compared to the old cones) but after referencing some JBL sales literature I think the color & gloss is spot on.

First pic are the speakers as I received them. Second is after paint and third is same as second but with the old cone for color reference. Which is closest the color JBL actually used?
846468464784648

DerekTheGreat
07-29-2019, 03:59 AM
This is just a bonus post. I thought I'd post pics which show the damage to the voice coils, which were indeed rubbing and the source of that "pop" I was hearing. I haven't actually listened to the speakers yet but I moved the cones by hand as I did before I did not feel any rubbing so I'm confident my problem was the previous job. I'll post pics of the 150A's later too.

First pics is of an old cone which shows "129H". Second pic is of one of the new cones installed on the 128H basket, "128H". Remaining pics are of the old voice coils, one having more damage than the other. Explains why both were popping, just one before the other, hopefully anyway. Fingers crossed that after all of this I can finally enjoy my speakers! I still need a VU meter for my Marantz 510M though! If anyone can help with that, please let me know! :)

84649846508465184652

Earl K
07-29-2019, 10:56 AM
Thanks for the pics Derek! ( plus the update on the cone painting mixture ).

I you still have them ( I humbly suggest that you ) hold on to those cone assemblies ( that were lifted out as a single piece ).

They ( or parts of them ) may be re-usable in the future to a master tech. ( especially the aquaplased cone ).

:)

DerekTheGreat
07-30-2019, 04:05 AM
Thanks for the response, Earl!

I do still have the cones, but suspect they were painted and not original. We also cannibalized them to practice our painting techniques as one was already damaged on the outer edge. I was hoping someone on here might be able to tell us if they were originals or original replacements, as well as verify if the color was right. One pic I posted has the "original" cone in the center of the ones we painted. The white we used is much more vibrant than that cone but perhaps the old cone has just faded due to age and such.

On a different note, I got the JBL C8R128H kit in yesterday. I'll pull that out of the box and snap pictures of it as well. But, it isn't an original cone either so who knows how close it is the factory stuff? Being that it's from JBL I'm going to assume it's as close as you can get but what would I know? I need your guys' help and advice here!

I still would like to know how to test how well my cabinets are sealing up too. How is this done?

RMC
07-30-2019, 04:21 PM
Hi Derek,

RE: "I still would like to know how to test how well my cabinets are sealing up too. How is this done?"
In order to know this you have to measure the driver's motional impedance at the voice coil. I can't show what I have on this as its copyrighted and the author clearly indicates prior permission required to reproduce his stuff even in part... So you'll need to search the Net on this driver motional impedance issue.

I haven't followed your project consistently and in detail but the latest posts made me react. I sure don't intend to rain on your project since I do appreciate the amount and quality of work you and your wife put on this. However, I think its important you realize the implications associated with painting driver cones. By wanting to "improve" driver aesthetics you may, at the same time, have shot yourself in the foot on the technical side of things.

When painting the cones with four coats of paint you added mass to these and that has some consequences, as explained by Bullock (P. 9-10): Woofer resonance frequency Fs, cone mass Mms and suspension compliance Cms are related. For example, playing with Mms or Cms can lead to a notable change in driver Fs. Driver Q parameters will also vary: Qms considers Fs and others, while Qes considers Fs and Mms among other too. Hence driver Qts will also be impacted since it is calculated with Qms and Qes. Domino effect...

Fs, Qts and Vas are the three basic parameters to calculate box data. Qts affects proper box size, as well as Vas ["volume of air whose compliance is the same as a driver's acoustical compliance Cms" as defined on LH Forum; in a way Vas is another representation of compliance (Cms)].

The above is probably what made Bullock say re one of his own projects : "Investigation revealed air leaking through the driver's dust cap. I sealed the cap with glue, remeasured the driver's parameters which were altered by the additional mass (the glue) and realigned ..." P.8

Some glue on a dust cap seems like a relatively small change compared to 4 coats of paint on the larger cone area. If one was to add Aquaplas on the back side of a painted cone, mass would increase again, with further T/S deviations (but that is taken into account by the driver's design engineer at the factory).

Moreover, cone mass and suspension compliance (Mms and Cms) have an impact on driver transient response, thus on how a driver will effectively sound.

I don't see white cones giving more value to the drivers since the work was not done by the manufacturer (i.e. not original). At the time of say a resale, its not sure a potential buyer would be pleased or interested in homemade painted cones that may well have shifted T/S. As long as they please you that's what counts.

The above doesn't mean you have worthless drivers after modification. They will still produce sound in the enclosures, the question is how well of a fit and reproducer are they now. My suggestion is you should get yourself something like the Dayton Audio DATS V2 in order to measure the new actual T/S parameters of your modified drivers to assess if they're still properly suitable for the cabinets' Vb/Fb. Then go from there.

Sorry for being the bad news messenger. Regards,

Richard

DerekTheGreat
07-31-2019, 04:25 AM
Hi Derek,

RE: "I still would like to know how to test how well my cabinets are sealing up too. How is this done?"
In order to know this you have to measure the driver's motional impedance at the voice coil. I can't show what I have on this as its copyrighted and the author clearly indicates prior permission required to reproduce his stuff even in part... So you'll need to search the Net on this driver motional impedance issue.

I haven't followed your project consistently and in detail but the latest posts made me react. I sure don't intend to rain on your project since I do appreciate the amount and quality of work you and your wife put on this. However, I think its important you realize the implications associated with painting driver cones. By wanting to "improve" driver aesthetics you may, at the same time, have shot yourself in the foot on the technical side of things.

When painting the cones with four coats of paint you added mass to these and that has some consequences, as explained by Bullock (P. 9-10): Woofer resonance frequency Fs, cone mass Mms and suspension compliance Cms are related. For example, playing with Mms or Cms can lead to a notable change in driver Fs. Driver Q parameters will also vary: Qms considers Fs and others, while Qes considers Fs and Mms among other too. Hence driver Qts will also be impacted since it is calculated with Qms and Qes. Domino effect...

Fs, Qts and Vas are the three basic parameters to calculate box data. Qts affects proper box size, as well as Vas ["volume of air whose compliance is the same as a driver's acoustical compliance Cms" as defined on LH Forum; in a way Vas is another representation of compliance (Cms)].

The above is probably what made Bullock say re one of his own projects : "Investigation revealed air leaking through the driver's dust cap. I sealed the cap with glue, remeasured the driver's parameters which were altered by the additional mass (the glue) and realigned ..." P.8

Some glue on a dust cap seems like a relatively small change compared to 4 coats of paint on the larger cone area. If one was to add Aquaplas on the back side of a painted cone, mass would increase again, with further T/S deviations (but that is taken into account by the driver's design engineer at the factory).

Moreover, cone mass and suspension compliance (Mms and Cms) have an impact on driver transient response, thus on how a driver will effectively sound.

I don't see white cones giving more value to the drivers since the work was not done by the manufacturer (i.e. not original). At the time of say a resale, its not sure a potential buyer would be pleased or interested in homemade painted cones that may well have shifted T/S. As long as they please you that's what counts.

The above doesn't mean you have worthless drivers after modification. They will still produce sound in the enclosures, the question is how well of a fit and reproducer are they now. My suggestion is you should get yourself something like the Dayton Audio DATS V2 in order to measure the new actual T/S parameters of your modified drivers to assess if they're still properly suitable for the cabinets' Vb/Fb. Then go from there.

Sorry for being the bad news messenger. Regards,

Richard

I'm a fan of constructive criticism, would have appreciated the comments sooner though. Seems most lurk and watch from the shadows and then bash after it's too late for the OP to go back.. Anyway, I also researched in great length about the caveats of painting the woofers, how I determined the stuff I was going to use. I really wanted to nail the color, looks like I got as close as possible to the real thing. Also, the cones I had to begin with weren't original. OE replacements at best, and after reviewing the JBL 128H replacement woofer I got, which was complete with AquaPlas, it is consistent with my old woofer. Old woofer's color was faded and yellow, new paint on new woofer is slightly more vibrant and whiter than the JBL NOS woofer. I'm still very pleased with the aesthetic so far. Well, to me the color matters, especially as a buyer. I would not have bought the speakers if the woofers weren't white.. I do consider myself to be an audiophile, but I don't get out the slide rules and fancy equations, I just listen to the music. I'm not there yet and don't personally know people that are. I've read through a lot but without any context, the equipment to experiment for myself or someone to answer questions, most of it is lost on me. So I just use my ears and basic deductive reasoning, it's gotten me this far. I'd like to have that equipment, but without any real means to discern the literature & contrast against my findings, I don't think I'd be able to make much sense of it. Like, how do you realign a driver once it's already in place? Every question I'd answer would most likely leave me with two more.

But yes, paint adds mass. The cones I just replaced have what appear to be the same woofers (according to the rear & front texture, please see the pics) as the new ones that I painted, only they just don't have the AquaPlas coating, which also adds weight. I began to peel some away and it's considerably thicker and denser than the paint I used. I used between 30 & 40mL of paint total, so roughly only 15-20mL per cone. It was also reduced, 3:2, so 40% of that volume of used paint was straight water which evaporated. I don't have actual weight measurements, but from the threads on other forums I've read, they added less than 6 or 7 grams of paint per woofer, which is probably similar to what that AquaPlas coating weighs if not less. So as I use my ears to discern the difference, what I'd be comparing the sound to wasn't original to begin with, I have no true frame of reference. So far, my Marantz gear isn't back, should be today. I'm using the awful Yamaha R-V1105(?) natural sound receiver which came with buying the speakers. That amp is absolutely terrible. Sound stage is much narrower and it handles transients poorly. Bass stinks too. But is that the woofer?? Dunno, I'll find out when I get my beloved Marantz stuff back. If it is, this is exactly why I bought the replacement woofer another member was kind enough to link in their message. I just need one more. I'm still searching for it. Another member said that as a JBL reconer, he can get them. Unfortunately, he won't order one and send it to me though. So I will wait until another opportunity arises. Until then and if these woofers don't sound right, I will wait until I get that kit and then have them reconed again. But, hopefully none of that will be necessary. What a nightmare this has been. I still don't know if my original issue has been solved.. From the hour session I had yesterday, it appears it has, but I need my original gear back. I also heard you're supposed to break in the new cones. Guess I'll just let them play awhile.

Robh3606
07-31-2019, 08:06 AM
Hello Derek

From the other side of the fence it takes a significant change in mass to have a appreciable difference in FS. A coat of non loaded pigment only paint won't do it. There is a 30 gram difference between a 2234 and a 2235. Fs of 20 hz 2235 to 23Hz 2234 so a net change of 3 Hz using the identical suspension system. Coat of paint who cares! I sure as hell wouldn't loose any sleep over it.


:)

DerekTheGreat
07-31-2019, 10:25 AM
Thanks Rob!

I sure thought about it for awhile and that is ultimately the conclusion I settled upon. The wife and I rather like how they look now. :)

Is there a layman's way of testing how air tight my cabinets are? If I tap on either woofer the other moves the same amount in the opposite direction. If I hold either woofer in, the other will quickly settle back to it's resting position after moving out. I can't imagine foam surrounds/suspensions are 100% air tight..

Ian Mackenzie
07-31-2019, 05:12 PM
Hi Derek,

If you can arrange a 30 hertz sine wave into the loudspeaker then run your hand around the enclosure to feel for leaks. That will identify any issues normally.

You can download an App for that.

The theory of operation is quite interesting but don’t get bogged down in it.

Those cones look great btw.

Please post more pics.

DavidF
07-31-2019, 08:41 PM
"... I just need one more. I'm still searching for it. Another member said that as a JBL reconer, he can get them. Unfortunately, he won't order one and send it to me though. .."

Just for context's sake, Derek, it would a breach of his JBL service contract to sell the replacement kit without also installing the kit. So, not so much he won't, but can't.

Doctor_Electron
08-01-2019, 12:15 AM
Just for context's sake, Derek, it would a breach of his JBL service contract to sell the replacement kit without also installing the kit. So, not so much he won't, but can't.

That has been a hard and fast rule in JBL authorized service since "day one".
To be authorized is not a trivial matter. I worked for an authorized shop 20 years go. The owner had his contract suspended because he did not obtain a set of gap gauges to work on newer drivers with smaller voice coil gaps.

If I were a JBL Pro authorized shop I wouldn't sell any parts I as not authorized to. You make an agreement and that is your word. Even in this day and age that means something to me.

DerekTheGreat
08-01-2019, 03:59 AM
Hi Derek,

If you can arrange a 30 hertz sine wave into the loudspeaker then run your hand around the enclosure to feel for leaks. That will identify any issues normally.

You can download an App for that.

The theory of operation is quite interesting but don’t get bogged down in it.

Those cones look great btw.

Please post more pics.

Thanks Ian! I'll snap a pic of the replacement cone soon, hopefully we'll get to touching up the cabinets and such. I'm a bit embarrassed to show the L150A's until we've cleaned the crayon off & polished them up. At least now the faces of the speakers look great haha.

Which app do you like? I bought a test CD off eBay and while it has a lot of useful stuff on it, the lowest test tone I have is 50hz.. I saw some stuff from other forums in which you could download some software to make your own tones but if I could get an app on my phone that would be easier and then I could just hook that up to my computer and record it later if I wanted to, rather than risk a virus or something.


Just for context's sake, Derek, it would a breach of his JBL service contract to sell the replacement kit without also installing the kit. So, not so much he won't, but can't.


That has been a hard and fast rule in JBL authorized service since "day one".
To be authorized is not a trivial matter. I worked for an authorized shop 20 years go. The owner had his contract suspended because he did not obtain a set of gap gauges to work on newer drivers with smaller voice coil gaps.

If I were a JBL Pro authorized shop I wouldn't sell any parts I as not authorized to. You make an agreement and that is your word. Even in this day and age that means something to me.

Thank you fellas, that puts it into perspective. If he was closer, I'd of had him do the work, honest! I don't know how I got the woofer kit I have now but I'm glad someone was selling one. Just need one more... Looks like it could be awhile before one turns up and hopefully I won't need it anyway.

Istill fear I'm going to hear that "POP!" though.. I've read about speaker break ins, not sure if that is a thing or not but I let the speakers play all morning and into the afternoon yesterday with that junky Yamaha, at a volume that was just higher than "casual" so the cones moved a decent amount. Is this necessary or good to do before trying to jam out?

Earl K
08-03-2019, 07:24 AM
I picked my 128H's up this past Saturday. The cones look to be the same or similar to the ones they replaced; dark purple color & textured rear, just no AquaPlas coating of course. I bought that one eBay listing for a true replacement but that's just one cone. So I'll stash that until I find another and need to recone these speakers or another set. In the meantime, if someone needs that recone kit, PM me.



Derek,

Color me confused here.

I thought you were getting ( from your preferred reconer ) bona-fide JBL recone kits.

Is that not the case? ( Price wise, were they inline with a costing from "sguttag" ? > ignoring shipping charges )

I was under the impression that a bona-fide 128H type JBL recone kit would have Aquaplas on it ( somewhere, be it either front or back ).

Is that eBay recone kit painted with aquaplas ?

What about the 2 kits that were removed ? ( did they have any aquaplas on them anywhere ? )

:)

Robh3606
08-03-2019, 08:56 AM
I was under the impression that a bona-fide 128H type JBL recone kit would have Aquaplas on it ( somewhere, be it either front or back ).


Both of the 128h-1 I have don't have aquaplas on them. They have a very ruff coating on the back of the cone almost like papermachte

Rob:)

Earl K
08-03-2019, 11:10 AM
Both of the 128h-1 I have don't have aquaplas on them. They have a very ruff coating on the back of the cone almost like papermachte

Rob:)

Thanks Rob!

So the original 128H was painted in white aquaplas ( according to this blurb ).

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1979-l150/page3.jpg

And the original 128H-1 had a black aquaplas painted cone ( according to the following );

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1995-4400a-series/page4.jpg

Do you have any idea when JBL stopped making the recone kits with aquaplassed cones ?

:)

Robh3606
08-03-2019, 01:51 PM
I might have to eat a little crow there. I just took a look at them compared to Le-14A's. It very well could be aquaplas but the application looks different. Where the 14's are smooth and uniform the 128's are ruff clumpy almost like it was dabbed on if that makes any sense at all. Here are a couple of pictures so you can see what I mean and make up your own mind.

Rob:)

macaroonie
08-03-2019, 04:32 PM
IMO the lumpy coating is spatter sprayed pulp of the same mix as the cone material.
There to add some mass but more importantly to create an irregular surface that will not have a particular resonant frequency or perhaps it breaks up resonances on the cone surface. Laser interferometry would show the efficacy of this treatment.
I did once upon a time have a wee pick about at that stuff out of curiosity , it seemed to be much the same as paper pulp or geggy mush as we called it at school.

Geggy mush is where you tear off a corner from your jotter and chew it up till it is a soggy gob of spit and paper. You then use a ruler to propel said geggy mush at the back of the neck of your enemy in class. Some geggy mush could be seen on ceilings years later. Oh what fun. :)

The Antivibe ( Blachford ) product is entirely different.

sguttag
08-03-2019, 07:00 PM
Thank you fellas, that puts it into perspective. If he was closer, I'd of had him do the work, honest! I don't know how I got the woofer kit I have now but I'm glad someone was selling one. Just need one more... Looks like it could be awhile before one turns up and hopefully I won't need it anyway.


That is correct...it isn't a matter of taunting you, thems the rules by JBL. We are prohibited from selling recone kits as a retail part. The part about having gap gauges is true as well. Every driver (compression or cone) gets its gap checked as per JBL before a replacement goes in. If the driver fails its gap test, and if it isn't AlNiCo, it is a dead driver, as far as JBL is concerned and non-repairable. ALNICOs can be discharged, gap recentered, and recharged (not by us but JBL can (or used to...I haven't asked in a LONG time) perform that service). And if JBL no longer does, I'm sure Great Plains Audio would since they'll do it for Altec ALNICO drivers.

BTW...I did say that ANY JBL PRO recone center has access to the same parts as us so you should be able to find someone close to you. I'm going strictly by the service portal where the white cone kits still come up.

DavidF
08-03-2019, 08:46 PM
Both of the 128h-1 I have don't have aquaplas on them. They have a very ruff coating on the back of the cone almost like papermachte

Rob:)

The pair of 128H-1 drivers I had did have aquaplas on the front. I do not recall what the back of the cone looked like. Mine are not these below, but as shown with the application of aquaplas.

84686

Earl K
08-04-2019, 04:20 AM
I might have to eat a little crow there. I just took a look at them compared to Le-14A's. It very well could be aquaplas but the application looks different. Where the 14's are smooth and uniform the 128's are ruff clumpy almost like it was dabbed on if that makes any sense at all. Here are a couple of pictures so you can see what I mean and make up your own mind.

Thanks Rob!

In reality I can't determine if what you have is aquaplas or not without an actual hands-on with that cone.

What do you think it is?

As Mac pointed out, the back of these newer recones do look like some grade-school effort from a kids art class.

:)

gasfan
08-04-2019, 02:45 PM
The 122As on my L65s were original and looked exactly like that. Aquaplas on the front and that lumpy texture on the back. The 129s have that same stuff on the back.

RMC
08-04-2019, 09:28 PM
Hi gasfan,

Adding 2214H to the list... Regards,

Richard

84690846918469284693

DerekTheGreat
08-05-2019, 04:56 AM
Derek,

Color me confused here.
I thought you were getting ( from your preferred reconer ) bona-fide JBL recone kits.
Is that not the case? ( Price wise, were they inline with a costing from "sguttag" ? > ignoring shipping charges )
I was under the impression that a bona-fide 128H type JBL recone kit would have Aquaplas on it ( somewhere, be it either front or back ).
Is that eBay recone kit painted with aquaplas ?
What about the 2 kits that were removed ? ( did they have any aquaplas on them anywhere ? )
:)

My reconer showed up as certified by JBL and you can even look her up through Harmon's website. But, I'm guessing she is no longer certified or doesn't have access to the portal like sguttag does. I tried suggesting going through that portal but she looked at me like I was speaking some foreign language or my face was melting away. At that point, I didn't want to risk offending her and I'm pretty sure that now, she wouldn't want to answer my calls.. Anyhow, I think she used 128H-something recone kits. The parts which came off my baskets said 129H.. Yet they had a white coating on them which does appear to be Aquaplas-like. I haven't peeled away at it yet but it appears to be several mils thick, so its not paint like I suspected it was. But I'm also positive they were not the original cones. I think maybe one of my tweeters was original and perhaps both 128H baskets were original. Both cabinets have crayon all over them and so I'm guessing kids had their way with the drivers at some point..

sguttag didn't quote me a price because well, he can't lol. I wish he was closer, I would have had him do the work. The area I live in is terrible for audio service it seems. I'm going to have to learn to do it myself, least that's the impression I'm getting.

The recone kit I bought with the part number sguttag provided (and the link another member here shared) came in a genuine JBL box and has the same rear pulp/paper textured rear but also has the white Aquaplas coating. Also dates back to 2001 or 2005... Pretty cool, but I need another one if I'd like to use them instead of the woofers I got from my reconer which I painted... Have you seen the pics I posted on that process? Got the color pretty close and both me and my wife are really happy with the appearance.


That is correct...it isn't a matter of taunting you, thems the rules by JBL. We are prohibited from selling recone kits as a retail part. The part about having gap gauges is true as well. Every driver (compression or cone) gets its gap checked as per JBL before a replacement goes in. If the driver fails its gap test, and if it isn't AlNiCo, it is a dead driver, as far as JBL is concerned and non-repairable. ALNICOs can be discharged, gap recentered, and recharged (not by us but JBL can (or used to...I haven't asked in a LONG time) perform that service). And if JBL no longer does, I'm sure Great Plains Audio would since they'll do it for Altec ALNICO drivers.

BTW...I did say that ANY JBL PRO recone center has access to the same parts as us so you should be able to find someone close to you. I'm going strictly by the service portal where the white cone kits still come up.

This is why I wish you were local! I doubt she gap checked the driver and I'm worried that I'll still have the same complaint as before.. Time will tell.
Indeed you did! Like I was saying to Earl, I tried bringing that up with her and she wasn't having any of it... So what I got was what you saw in the pictures, if you saw that post. I painted them using materials I sourced from other threads in which people did similar things. So far, no issues, but I haven't been able to properly drive my speakers with the Marantz gear as that stuff is still out for service...

Also, great pictures & posts everyone! Certainly helping me understand the differences and I hope they'll help others who come across this thread. Does anyone have a pic of an original 128H woofer from a L150 or L150A?? From the stuff I came across on the archives, it suggested the cones face was coated with white Aquaplas and the rear was also white but flat...

SEAWOLF97
08-05-2019, 09:59 AM
Had a very used pair of 128H's last year , function was good and heard that they cleaned up & worked well. :)

DerekTheGreat
08-05-2019, 10:16 AM
Awesome, original 128H's!

Do you remember if the back of the woofer cones smooth or textured? I can't make it out from the pic.. They look to be smooth & black.

SEAWOLF97
08-05-2019, 10:56 AM
Awesome, original 128H's!

Do you remember if the back of the woofer cones smooth or textured? I can't make it out from the pic.. They look to be smooth & black.

AFAIR, they were smooth ... didn't have them very long. ;) (ie:sold fast)

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?17712-Speaker-Safari&p=394929&viewfull=1#post394929

DerekTheGreat
08-07-2019, 05:42 AM
Well, I got my 510M and 3600 preamp back yesterday. Hooked all that stuff up and began to test things out. Something on the amp which never worked before were the "PEAK" lights for each channel. I also noticed that the knobs on the left for gain and such attenuate the right channel and vice versa. Strange. Guess that's how this old Marantz stuff is supposed to be? I've got everything wired correctly, left to left and such. Anyway, I can still hear that popping noise or voicecoil bottoming out. Although now when I hear it, I see the peak lights come on. Guessing that the drivers for that stuff were bad before as the unit's lights didn't work either. I worked at dialing the gain settings in based on some videos I watched and now run the amp just hard enough so that at most, the peak lights flicker. I also dialed up the mids & tweeters a bit to compensate for the midrange hump I was experiencing. Even still, seems the volume is rather tame before those peak lights pop on. So was I just running my stuff too hard before or is there something wrong with my gear or is this just normal? JBL sales crap for the L150 series states these things can handle concert volume levels and I'm not quite there yet. It's loud, yeah, but not as loud as I'd expect out of 256 wpc. Certainly not concert loud, I always have to wear ear plugs at concerts.. Guess that has to do with their low sensitivity ratings? In the past, whenever I've driven stuff too hard there was always some sort of audible distortion/break up, not some sort of loud "POP!" as I'm hearing with this gear.. Don't know what I'm missing and definitely need advice. I'm sure you guys are going to have a field day with this comment. Bring on the fire, educate the stupidity right out of me haha.

rusty jefferson
08-07-2019, 07:07 AM
Back in the mid 80's I purchased a pair of L150As and a B-380 subwoofer from a dealer. Initially, I used a Hafler D-500 modified to bridged mono for running the sub. It was not uncommon to overdrive that amp, and the mass ring on the 2235 would hit the frame and make a "pop" sound that was frightening. I don't know if the woofers (or passive radiators) in the L150A have a mass ring, but if they do perhaps that's what you're hearing.

It's not about amplifier watts, but quality. When I purchased a more modern and better quality amplifier for the sub after the Hafler died, I never heard that pop again even playing it much, much louder than before with less watts. The newer amplifier had much more current delivery, and a huge power supply with tons of capacitance. Early solid state amplifiers (1970s) rated at 250 watts per channel can't hold a candle to a new 250 watt amplifier from a company like Bryston or Parasound in term of controlling the woofers in your loudspeakers.

Try borrowing a good quality recently built amplifier with the traits just mentioned and see if the problem goes away.

DerekTheGreat
08-07-2019, 08:29 AM
Back in the mid 80's I purchased a pair of L150As and a B-380 subwoofer from a dealer. Initially, I used a Hafler D-500 modified to bridged mono for running the sub. It was not uncommon to overdrive that amp, and the mass ring on the 2235 would hit the frame and make a "pop" sound that was frightening. I don't know if the woofers (or passive radiators) in the L150A have a mass ring, but if they do perhaps that's what you're hearing.

It's not about amplifier watts, but quality. When I purchased a more modern and better quality amplifier for the sub after the Hafler died, I never heard that pop again even playing it much, much louder than before with less watts. The newer amplifier had much more current delivery, and a huge power supply with tons of capacitance. Early solid state amplifiers (1970s) rated at 250 watts per channel can't hold a candle to a new 250 watt amplifier from a company like Bryston or Parasound in term of controlling the woofers in your loudspeakers.

Try borrowing a good quality recently built amplifier with the traits just mentioned and see if the problem goes away.

Oh, that's a bummer... I just started to like this Marantz stuff too, and I'm afraid I've got too much into it to be able to go to something else. What amp would you recommend from those guys and what could I expect to pay? But I think you're right on about something hitting the frame, what else could make that noise?

SEAWOLF97
08-07-2019, 09:32 AM
But I think you're right on about something hitting the frame, what else could make that noise?

I've read abt a foam filter decaying & depositing debris into the gap, a refoam would not really address that.

Earl K
08-07-2019, 02:14 PM
I've read abt a foam filter decaying & depositing debris into the gap, a refoam would not really address that.


Derek had full recones ( aftermarket I believe ) done to his 128's .

I'll assume the reconer was hip enough to her job to clean the gap as well as remove any crumbling foam from the center "blow-hole" when she put those cones in.

:)

DavidF
08-07-2019, 05:23 PM
Oh, that's a bummer... I just started to like this Marantz stuff too, and I'm afraid I've got too much into it to be able to go to something else. What amp would you recommend from those guys and what could I expect to pay? But I think you're right on about something hitting the frame, what else could make that noise?

Hold on. The idea was to borrow one, not buy one. It must be frustratingbut you don't want to go way off in different directions and spending bucks trying to figurethis out.

If everything is "good" then the woofers should not taking peak powerfrom this amp (around 250 watts, right?) just to achieve a "reasonable" sound level. Should be loud as hell with that power in a typical room. Assuming peak power indicators are showing power at clipping.

You have no equalization in the signal at the low end, right? No massive, or otherwise, boost to bass?

I believe you indicated using two different amps with the sameresult. I presume also that the problem of popping did not show up with the receiver and your other set of speakers. This cuts chances down for amp issuesbut since both are older units that doesn't mean everything is OK on theamp side. Based upon Rusty's situation, it could helpful to you to use a morecurrent amp, temporarily, to find if the problempersists. Not sure where I would go and just borrow an amp, myself, soI know that this suggestion could be problem.

If you are truly bottoming the active woofer then the passive cone must bedancing a frightful dance since the excursion of apassive is supposed to exceed that of the woofer in itsoperating range. Is that what you see when this popping occurs?

Have you pulled the passives to look them over for issues in terms of holes or leaks? These drivers have- I forget- two or three MDF round pieces to act as the mass adjustment for the passive. Held on by a screw right behind the dust dome when looking from the rear. Are they installed?

DerekTheGreat
08-08-2019, 04:07 AM
Thanks for the response David!

Well, borrowing one would sure be nice, but none of my friends are into audio gear so I've got access to no other amps. I could drag up my modern Marantz SR7005 but that is only 125 watts and EVERYTHING is hooked up to it, TV, five speakers (JBL Northridge stuff), Xbox, ect.. Would be a major PITA but I suppose it would be worth it.

I did some thinking about what Rusty said.. I find it hard to believe that when new, the stuff I've got and other stuff on the same level failed to drive these speakers and similar others. They may not be as efficient or able to supply the amperage but they got the job done.
EDIT: I did try the L150A's out with the Marantz 4300 I've got, they popped there initially so I figured it was lack of power, hence why I bought the 510M & 3600. Oy.. Even though I had the L150A's hooked to that junky R-V11xx 115 watt Yamaha "Natural Sound" receiver, I didn't dare crank it. That thing sounded like junk, freakin' terrible, so tinny, harsh and as far away from natural as you could get. The Marantz is pure bliss by comparison. I did not watch the PR's but I did notice each has 3 mass rings on the back of them and they were reconed. Had to be, original cones are supposed to be black and these are purplish. Mac is kind enough to send me a 20hz-20khz wave form to test my speakers so I'll be able to address any air leaks I may have here shortly. I don't think they move like crazy but they do move. Didn't know they are essentially supposed to move more than the 128H's.. I don't think they do...

I did some more listening and tuning last night. I did confirm that there is some sort of gain problem within the Marantz 510M. First and foremost: The gain control on the left side of the amp (as you're facing it) actually controls the right channel and vice versa. Really strange. But I double checked my connections and verified left and right with a sound test CD. Is this normal? Can anyone that has or had a 510M confirm this for me? Anyhow, the gain knob on the left has to be dialed up about 15-20 degrees (about an 1/8th of a turn) higher than the gain knob on the right side of the amp in order to match the level of the speaker. If you set both gain knobs to the same setting, the sound favors the left side. I verified that the preamp or my source isn't the cause of this by swapping L & R cables and then omitting the pre amp (Marantz 3600). Left side always favored no matter what. What causes this? I just got the amp back from service. I'll be calling them today to schedule returning it but I'd like to be prepared for what I'm in for. Doesn't seem like it's ok to run it like that.

But with that info out of the way, more listening happened. I turned up the pots on the L150A's a smidge for both the mids & tweets. Balanced out that thrum of the bass drivers (things run up to 1100hz! :blink:) and smoothed things out overall while of course letting the system seem a bit louder. Bass performance still acceptable.
I considered maximum volume level to be where the "PEAK" lights on the face of the amp flicker here and there for both channels, as if I'm just dancing with the maximum threshold. System actually seems loud. It sounds so good & smooth I want to push it just a smidge harder but those lights tell me that would be a bad idea.. But after listening for 30 minutes my ears were ringing despite lack of ear fatigue.. The set-up downstairs (Marantz SR7005, JBL E90's & two E250P's) would always start to fatigue my ears, forcing me to shut down my jam session before I was ready and I'd walk away with ringing in my ears. Not to mention I compared the two and the Northridge set up plays at a lower volume than the L150A set-up. Interesting considering the E90's have a sensitivity rating of 91dB and the L150A's come in a 89dB. Difference of power I suppose, and I do have quite a bit of EQ going on with the 7005 to remove up to 4dB of the midrange area with those E90's which makes my ears bleed, (1khz - 4khz).

So, did I experience woofer pop? Yes, but this time the PEAK lights weren't displayed either time it happened while listening to Axle F (just to coax the popping) And it was more laid back, almost sounds like pronounced rubbing, like think old tin washboard or something, "BROP!" If driven harder, it would have probably been the classic "POP!" I'm familiar with. Worth mentioning is that when this noise happens, the woofer is moving out towards the room/listener, not bottoming out. So I think the recone job helped, my wife verified that yep, the system is definitely able to play louder than it was before. So we sat and enjoyed some Three Dog Night, CAKE, The Cars and some Pretenders before the obligations of life compelled us to sleep for our day jobs.

DavidF
08-08-2019, 10:27 AM
Hmmm, I think you really need to look closer at parking that (or those) old amplifiers until you have ruled them out as the problem. Or the preamp, for that matter.

"Purplish" for color on the passive cones sound correct to me. Depending upon the light. They are not black.

Earl K
08-08-2019, 11:15 AM
I considered maximum volume level to be where the "PEAK" lights on the face of the amp flicker here and there for both channels, as if I'm just dancing with the maximum threshold. System actually seems loud.

It sounds so good & smooth I want to push it just a smidge harder but those lights tell me that would be a bad idea.. But after listening for 30 minutes my ears were ringing despite lack of ear fatigue..

The set-up downstairs (Marantz SR7005, JBL E90's & two E250P's) would always start to fatigue my ears, forcing me to shut down my jam session before I was ready and I'd walk away with ringing in my ears.

Not to mention I compared the two and the Northridge set up plays at a lower volume than the L150A set-up. Interesting considering the E90's have a sensitivity rating of 91dB and the L150A's come in a 89dB. Difference of power I suppose, and I do have quite a bit of EQ going on with the 7005 to remove up to 4dB of the midrange area with those E90's which makes my ears bleed, (1khz - 4khz).

I think most of your problems Derek with those L150's woofers ( as well as desire to tinker with the other components ) stem from having unrealistic expectations ( level wise ) as to what HiFi components such as these can really deliver ( before distorting ).

Though these big box systems may look like Cerwin Vega from the same era ( they were never meant to keep up to CV's in a straight volume level war ).

As far as I'm concerned all your popping problems ( of the woofers ) are just the woofers running out of Xmech/Xmax ( as Greg Timbers has mentioned before these older legacy woofers with shallow frames run out of Xmech pretty quickly > he should know, he designed that woofer ) .

I believe you should build a system that's much more sensitive ( at least 95db ) out of pro components so that you can pound it out ( cleanly ) .





:)

DerekTheGreat
08-08-2019, 11:41 AM
I think you might be right, that I am expecting too much. I went through and reread Chris Brown's post about his L150's and he describes the same thing. Also says he reminds himself not to drive them so hard. I also think DavidF has a good point, that my gear is suspect.

I don't even know what Cerwins from the late 70's or early 80's look like, not a fan haha. The ones I've seen just have those trademark red surrounds and cheap looking vinyl siding. They have a party speaker reputation. I heard they pound but everything else is lacking, much like MTX. I am after neutrality & honesty with sound. The JBL's I've listened to have given me that, including these L150A's. But, while not a fan of Cerwin I am neutral and eager to hear a set but based on the reading I've done on them, I doubt I'd be happy any set I come across. What got me stuck on JBL's was they won the war between my old Bose 301's & E30's I think. Not to mention I've seen them all over at concerts and establishments in addition to recording studios. They must do something right. The cheapie Northridge series I have handled everything I threw at them, so I mistakenly assumed that must be a trademark of JBL in general. Hell, even their sales literature states the stuff can jam. F'in marketing strikes again haha.

I don't know of any late 70's through early 80's gear with sensitivity ratings at or above 95dB, other than Klipsch that is. Everyone that messes with Klipsch always mentions Crites or Bob somethingorother. So some assembly is required with those to get them smooth & laidback.. But I'm not ready to give up on JBL just yet. If things work out I may have a set of 240Ti's to demo this weekend. That puts me at the late 80's of gear, but I'm willing to try them out and see if anything is different. What do you guys think about Infinity Column II's? I once had an opportunity to score a set for $300... They looked nice but if I remember right, they sourced all of their drivers from other companies..

SEAWOLF97
08-08-2019, 12:30 PM
. But I'm not ready to give up on JBL just yet. If things work out I may have a set of 240Ti's to demo this weekend. That puts me at the late 80's of gear, but I'm willing to try them out and see if anything is different. What do you guys think about Infinity Column II's? I once had an opportunity to score a set for $300... They looked nice but if I remember right, they sourced all of their drivers from other companies..

The LE14H-1's in my 250Ti's will go louder than I can stand, w/o me hearing any distortion... they'll rattle the windows.
I've worked on numerous 'finities ... not impressed with their drivers, but they seem to have fans, even with cheap stamped steel LF's.

DavidF
08-08-2019, 02:09 PM
I think most of your problems Derek with those L150's woofers ( as well as desire to tinker with the other components ) stem from having unrealistic expectations ( level wise ) as to what HiFi components such as these can really deliver ( before distorting ).

Though these big box systems may look like Cerwin Vega from the same era ( they were never meant to keep up to CV's in a straight volume level war ).

As far as I'm concerned all your popping problems ( of the woofers ) are just the woofers running out of Xmech/Xmax ( as Greg Timbers has mentioned before these older legacy woofers with shallow frames run out of Xmech pretty quickly > he should know, he designed that woofer ) .

I believe you should build a system that's much more sensitive ( at least 95db ) out of pro components so that you can pound it out ( cleanly ) .


:)





Good advise as to shear acoustic power. I wouldn't put the L150 behind any CW, though, except as to sensitivity and a proud-to-be-loud attitude.

I second your comments on Xmax and excursion. Not sure the 128H was constructed as were the 14 and 15 inch, though, in terms of Xmax. Just a guess. I do recall a caveat with respect to bottoming out and such in that using the woofers outside of intended application (not as sub woofers, HT movie content, etc) is where you would run into issues.

My experience with the 128H (similar sized enclosure to the L150, but tuned differently) is that it would go outrageously loud with enough power. Never appeared to test it's maximum excursion with musical content, no bass boost, no club material with that synthesized deep bass, playing to a fair-sized room.

Best I can tell the woofers are now up to spec in terms of OEM parts and performance. No reason to think some loud music (again, no bass boost, no high low/low bass material) would ever tax them as described by Derek. I could be wrong, reading about ringing ears (protect your ears! Tinnitus in old age is not so fun). He describes noises with the cones if forward displacement, not just backward where you would think about the coil hitting the plate.

So, I am thinking popping noises and scratchy sounds could easily be a thermal problem in the amp, failing resistor, transistor? Too much DC voltage coming with the signal? Just wouldn't want to give up on the L150's. They is so fine!

BMWCCA
08-08-2019, 06:56 PM
I've owned my L112s since they were new some 38-years ago. Never had any problem filling a room or the outdoors with all the volume I needed. They've never had anything powering them beyond a Crown D150 for all those years. Try another amp. :yes:

DerekTheGreat
08-09-2019, 04:06 AM
The LE14H-1's in my 250Ti's will go louder than I can stand, w/o me hearing any distortion... they'll rattle the windows.
I've worked on numerous 'finities ... not impressed with their drivers, but they seem to have fans, even with cheap stamped steel LF's.

Yeah, that's the impression I was left with after researching those Column II's. Cabinets and such were beautiful but the drivers I saw and read about just stalled me out, so I missed out on them. Can't find anything published about their sensitivity ratings either. Although, I was curious since those had a 10" downfiring "subwoofer" in addition to the 10" midbass and typical mid range with piezo type (IIRC) tweets.

Anyway, do you think $600 is a fair price for these 240Ti's? https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649520036-jbl-240ti-classic-3-way-speakers/images/2249865/
I've been chatting with the fellow selling these and have discovered that mids aren't original, aren't even JBL's, must be aftermarket of some sort. Labeled "JBC" or something. After learning that I'm trying to get the price down to $500. Says the woofers have been reconed but is also not happy with my offer of $500 as he started to go on about how much the drivers are worth and all that. Well, 104H's go for about $100 a pop too, so if I paid $600 I'm now at ~$850 once you factor in shipping and such for the 104H's once I find them. I think at best that is a $800 set of 240Ti's, right? I'm just tired of people trying to sell me on hypothetical prices, that and I'm tired of overpaying and then underselling.. The 044ti tweeters I've seen for sale, well the one has been reposted to eBay for almost a year now, so finding a buyer is critical and if I don't like these things I'm not going to want to part them out and then have to sit on the parts. But if you guys feel $600 is fair for those even though the mids aren't original then let me know.


Good advise as to shear acoustic power. I wouldn't put the L150 behind any CW, though, except as to sensitivity and a proud-to-be-loud attitude.

I second your comments on Xmax and excursion. Not sure the 128H was constructed as were the 14 and 15 inch, though, in terms of Xmax. Just a guess. I do recall a caveat with respect to bottoming out and such in that using the woofers outside of intended application (not as sub woofers, HT movie content, etc) is where you would run into issues.

My experience with the 128H (similar sized enclosure to the L150, but tuned differently) is that it would go outrageously loud with enough power. Never appeared to test it's maximum excursion with musical content, no bass boost, no club material with that synthesized deep bass, playing to a fair-sized room.

Best I can tell the woofers are now up to spec in terms of OEM parts and performance. No reason to think some loud music (again, no bass boost, no high low/low bass material) would ever tax them as described by Derek. I could be wrong, reading about ringing ears (protect your ears! Tinnitus in old age is not so fun). He describes noises with the cones if forward displacement, not just backward where you would think about the coil hitting the plate.

So, I am thinking popping noises and scratchy sounds could easily be a thermal problem in the amp, failing resistor, transistor? Too much DC voltage coming with the signal? Just wouldn't want to give up on the L150's. They is so fine!

My amp is definitely suspect. Something is failing inside it, it's going back to that shop on Monday. I don't remember having to have the gains at different positions in order to attain the same level for both channels. What could that be?

Anyway, with the Marantz stuff and the pots on each speaker for the mids & highs I have the EQ on the pre amp flat, just one bump down on midrange. I never go above "0", only lower with EQ. No club crap, just music played by real musicians with real instruments and actual talent. With some exceptions here and there, must still sound musical with plenty of instrumental contrast. I can't stand beats on repeat that is modern music. It all sounds like repetitive hand clap, sprinkers, boom-boom and finger snapping to me. That's noise, not music.

I still need to make a 40hz test tone to check how air tight those cabinets are. I checked the PR's and they don't move a whole lot. They move, but not more than the 128H's which you guys said they should. That could be part of the problem. The popping definitely comes from the speakers when it happens, it sounds like physical noise..


I've owned my L112s since they were new some 38-years ago. Never had any problem filling a room or the outdoors with all the volume I needed. They've never had anything powering them beyond a Crown D150 for all those years. Try another amp. :yes:

That's another point.. I think I really need a second opinion as to how loud my set up actually goes. For all I know, it's loud as can be. But also, what settings are your mid & tweeter pots at? I dahm near used a degree wheel to set all four of mine equally. My mids are now just above "3" and my tweeters are close to "2.7", thinking off hand. If I was to set those all flat at 0, it would appear much louder but then to me it would sound forward and most certainly harsh. It's at the point now where I think it's loud enough, I just wish I had a little more oomph left for those guitar and other instrumental interludes. Like for example, I'm a Mellencamp fan. I love the song "Check it Out." Mid way through the song there's a pause followed by some guitar work I rather enjoy, and would like to enjoy just a bit louder for those seconds so I can feel that in my soul. To leave the amp at those levels full time would be hell, but for those few moments, bliss. I think you know what I mean ;)

macaroonie
08-09-2019, 04:55 AM
So he's selling at $600 , I'd be on those like a rash even with the wrong mids. The correct mid has a poly cone , sorry can't remember the number. Condition is generally good , the little dings are easily fixed.
As myself and others have said before , this is a better speaker than the 150 by a good margin.

It does seem that you need to get your amp checked out properly , something is amiss.

M

84725

Earl K
08-09-2019, 05:38 AM
Derek,

I like the advisement to try another amp.

I'm in Pro Sound, always use pro grade amps here at home ( QSC & Bryston ) so have a hard time relating to "soft-circuit" mush caused by compromised "all-in-one" receivers.
- The last one of that type I purchased back in 1973 ( a Sherwood ).

You might want to consider buying a $25.00 SPL meter through Amazon ( or similar ).
- It would be useful to all involved to know how loud you're listening habits are.

OTOH, there's likely one or two Smart Phone apps that are just as accurate as a dedicated $25.00 meter ( I just don't know which ones to recommend ).

:)

DerekTheGreat
08-09-2019, 05:49 AM
Thanks for the replies fellas.

Well then, if I haven't insulted the guy I'll honor my original offer of $600. I did know about the poly cone, how I originally spotted it. That and the frame is supposed to be black, not bright.

I believe I am using pro audio components. I am no longer using the Marantz 4300, instead I've upgrade to a Marantz 3600 preamp paired up with a Marantz 510M power amp. Pro stuff in it's day.

If anyone can recommend an SPL app they like, that would be awesome. Also, what do you guys consider loud?

Earl K
08-09-2019, 06:06 AM
Also, what do you guys consider loud?
Peaking at 85db ( C weighted ) is around my limit for home listening.

I normally listen in the low to mid 70's.


Frequency (Noise) Weightings (https://www.noisemeters.com/help/faq/frequency-weighting)

:)

SEAWOLF97
08-09-2019, 07:32 AM
But if you guys feel $600 is fair for those even though the mids aren't original then let me know.

To buck the trend: IF you wanted to add up the cost of drivers, then @600, is OK.

Real Answer: I'd pass. Be patient, a nice set will come up that doesn't need first aid. They aren't that rare, pay a little more upfront if it's something you plan to keep.


oddiofyl1,107 posts
12-14-2018 10:16am
Ouch, the dreaded WAF.....

According to JBL guys they are worth more in parts.

"Unfortunately, 240Ti's just aren't that desirable, so they don't sell at any premium over the drivers' raw values. I haven't seen a no-reserve Ebay auction on them, but several sellers keep putting clean sets up at $899 or a thousand and they don't sell. A year or two ago TiDome was offering his clean pair to LH members for $600 and I don't think he sold them. They have a great woofer (LE14H-1) that's worth $175-200 each if pristine. The 044Ti tweeters are also rare, you may be able to get $150 for a perfect pair. The 104H midranges are probably worth $80/pr. Crossovers and cabinets have little or no value, so you get $630 in parts value. Normally, perfect pairs would be worth much more to collectors, but this model seems to be collector proof and is desired mainly for its parts. Good luck, and let us know if you get them!"

From Lansing Heritage site....
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/got-a-pair-of-jbl-240ti-mint-condition-very-nice

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/are-these-jbl-240ti-speakers-worth-895.718240/

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/jbl-240ti-worth-a-trip.806199/

FROM THE POST BELOW: appears that LHF member:tidome has/had a pair that he couldn't sell, maybe check with him ???

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30039-JBL-240Ti-value

http://www.audioreview.com/product/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/jbl/ti240.html

Mr. Widget
08-09-2019, 08:51 AM
Peaking at 85db ( C weighted ) is around my limit for home listening.

I normally listen in the low to mid 70's.


Frequency (Noise) Weightings (https://www.noisemeters.com/help/faq/frequency-weighting)

:)

85dB C is not particularly loud in my opinion. This is also content dependent. If you are listening to a typical '70s rock album at 85dB C it will be significantly louder sounding than a modern pop recording at 85dB C with lots of synthesized low bass content. When comparing music with widely varying spectral content A weighting may be more appropriate for comparing perceived loudness.

In any event, I think 95dB A to 105dB A is closer to what many would consider fairly loud. 85dBC is hardly background music level, but loud? If the music being played has a lot of deep bass, it can actually seem pretty tame.

Ultimately this is a pretty subjective area of discussion.


Widget

DerekTheGreat
08-09-2019, 09:36 AM
To buck the trend: IF you wanted to add up the cost of drivers, then @600, is OK.

Real Answer: I'd pass. Be patient, a nice set will come up that doesn't need first aid. They aren't that rare, pay a little more upfront if it's something you plan to keep.


oddiofyl1,107 posts
12-14-2018 10:16am
Ouch, the dreaded WAF.....

According to JBL guys they are worth more in parts.

"Unfortunately, 240Ti's just aren't that desirable, so they don't sell at any premium over the drivers' raw values. I haven't seen a no-reserve Ebay auction on them, but several sellers keep putting clean sets up at $899 or a thousand and they don't sell. A year or two ago TiDome was offering his clean pair to LH members for $600 and I don't think he sold them. They have a great woofer (LE14H-1) that's worth $175-200 each if pristine. The 044Ti tweeters are also rare, you may be able to get $150 for a perfect pair. The 104H midranges are probably worth $80/pr. Crossovers and cabinets have little or no value, so you get $630 in parts value. Normally, perfect pairs would be worth much more to collectors, but this model seems to be collector proof and is desired mainly for its parts. Good luck, and let us know if you get them!"

FROM THE POST BELOW: appears that LHF member:tidome has/had a pair that he couldn't sell, maybe check with him ???...

Thanks SEAWOLF, just the type of response I was hoping to read in regards to the 240Ti's. What you said is pretty much what I told the seller, that I understand the parts could potentially be worth what he's asking but I'm not looking to part them out- so $500 is a fair price. Then I see in one of the links you attached (funny that I read through a few before in my own quest for knowledge about the 240Ti's..) and someone gave the advice of $500 for the set of 240Ti's the guy was trying to sell. And those had the original drivers and are in similar shape to the ones I'd potentially buy. I haven't heard back from the seller so perhaps he didn't like my counter response. He has been trying to sell them for over 100 days. I don't want that to be me should I not like them, which I'm sure it would be if I listened to him and even went to try and sell the stuff. Nobody ever factors in their time, effort and such when selling stuff. "I restored this car and even made $5,000!!!" Yeah well you only invested 10k of labor so you lost money IMO...


85dB C is not particularly loud in my opinion. This is also content dependent. If you are listening to a typical '70s rock album at 85dB C it will be significantly louder sounding than a modern pop recording at 85dB C with lots of synthesized low bass content. When comparing music with widely varying spectral content A weighting may be more appropriate for comparing perceived loudness.

In any event, I think 95dB A to 105dB A is closer to what many would consider fairly loud. 85dBC is hardly background music level, but loud? If the music being played has a lot of deep bass, it can actually seem pretty tame.

Ultimately this is a pretty subjective area of discussion.


Widget

Ok! So I'll keep 95-105dB in the back of my head the next time I rock the thing out. Might not be for awhile as I suspect my amp is injured. Don't want to kill it. Anyone have any ideas as to what is going on with my amp? The right channel's gain has to be up nearly one third of a turn more than the left channel's in order for both channels to play at the same level...

SEAWOLF97
08-09-2019, 09:57 AM
another good choice is a "L100T (3?) "

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?41754-Original-L100t&p=424211#post424211

Earl K
08-09-2019, 10:23 AM
Ok! So I'll keep 95-105dB in the back of my head the next time I rock the thing out. Might not be for awhile as I suspect my amp is injured. Don't want to kill it. Anyone have any ideas as to what is going on with my amp?
The right channel's gain has to be up nearly one third of a turn more than the left channel's in order for both channels to play at the same level...

Some Guesses?

(i) The bias control on either A or B ( or both ) channels may need adjusting.

(ii) Also, something may have gone "kaflooey" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/go_kaflooey) ( a highly technical term ;) ) within the negative feedback circuit of the left channel ( allowing that channel to run somewhat hotter ).
- Removing the negative feedback is like taking the "governor" off of a purposely throttled-back engine.

:)

Earl K
08-09-2019, 11:28 AM
If anyone can recommend an SPL app they like, that would be awesome.

I like AudioTool quite a lot ( for Android ).

84727 (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.julian.apps.AudioTool&hl=en_US)

Importantly, it allows the usage of an external mic plugged into your Android phone ( and the loading of a calibration file > if available for that mic ).

:)

macaroonie
08-10-2019, 10:57 AM
https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=JBL+240ti

DerekTheGreat
08-12-2019, 03:48 AM
I like AudioTool quite a lot ( for Android ).
:)

I'll download this and replace the one I downloaded over the weekend, thanks for the tip!

On that note, I went and ordered an SPL meter as I learned that my phone self limits to about 85dB A weighted or so. About the highest I could get was 85ish peak, with an average of 80ish as well. So, real meter time. As for our comfortable listening level, about 48-60dB is what we leave it at when tooling around or just enjoying the music.


https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=JBL+240ti

I love this site, how I found the pair I linked earlier. Guy did not get back with me so he did not like my counter response or my offer to trade him the speakers for a Marantz 4300. Being that I'd have to spend ~$250 on replacement mids for them, I didn't really feel comfortable at $600. Especially right now with my amp and such being suspect and needing more repairs. I didn't want to end up in his shoes waiting 100+ days to sell something & break even. Parting perfectly serviceable gear out isn't my bag either so he can take that attitude and go stuff himself with it..


another good choice is a "L100T (3?) "

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?41754-Original-L100t&p=424211#post424211

Those are on my radar too! Although to be honest, I'm leaning more toward the 240Ti. Based on the head to head reviews of the L100T3 vs 240Ti people give the nod to the 240Ti's. Although the slightly higher sensitivity of the T3's is appealing. I like the look of them over the 240Ti's but after visually comparing the drivers and x/o networks my novice mind says the 240Ti's have the better & more expensive build quality. Which came first, the 240's or the L100T3's?

In any event, I found a set locally for sale with one crummy pic on Facebook Marketplace for about $750. I told myself if the 240's fell through then I'd see about those. What is a good offer for a set in excellent, then good and fair condition?


Some Guesses?

(i) The bias control on either A or B ( or both ) channels may need adjusting.

(ii) Also, something may have gone "kaflooey" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/go_kaflooey) ( a highly technical term ;) ) within the negative feedback circuit of the left channel ( allowing that channel to run somewhat hotter ).
- Removing the negative feedback is like taking the "governor" off of a purposely throttled-back engine.

:)

Hrmm.. So can these issues be fixed without parts? I'm a bit worried since I wasn't able to get the VU meter repaired or find a replacement. Sounds like these issues concern electrical components like resistors and transistor type stuff which I think can still be obtained. The amp didn't have these issues before I took it in. I've also noticed that the right channel takes a good five seconds to come to life after the left channel.

DerekTheGreat
08-12-2019, 04:02 AM
Well yesterday was a day of discovery. With the 510M wounded I didn't feel comfortable driving it hard but for science I did anyway to compare loudness levels of it vs that crummy Yamasuck receiver. Since my phone auto attenuates to about 80dB both my wife and I had to go by our ears and feel. Here's what we noticed between the two:

1) Recone was definitely needed; did not notice popping of the woofers with either receiver. I even went with the tried and true "make 'em pop" tune; MC Hammer's U Can't Touch This. Nope. But whoa, the passive radiators were indeed moving around a lot. Still need to test my cabinets though, I figure I'll pull all four woofers, scrape away the paint clinging to the O-rings and then repaint where they mount up on the cabinets to ensure a better seal.

2) Loudness between the two seems about even, with the nod perhaps slightly toward the Marantz.

3) Yamasuck (V-R1105 IIRC) started to audibly distort at a setting of -8dB on the volume knob, which is what I listen for when determining max volume levels. Before, the woofers would pop, now I just hear the typical strain I associate with an amp that has started to run out of steam.

4) Marantz 3600 preamp+510M power amp has no audible distortion when driven to point of the "PEAK" lights flickering. This is seemingly just as loud or slightly louder than the Yamasuck, but with better sound quality overall, especially bass & midrange presentation.

5) For poop & laughter I hooked my LX44's to front B of Yamasuck and L150A's to front A. Compared the two. I definitely prefer the tweeter of the 150A to whatever is in the LX44. Surprisingly, those little speakers have excellent bass response, they just don't dig as deep as the 150's. But at lower levels, they have more "bump" than the 150A's. However, throw more amp juice at the speakers and the L150A's leave the LX44's behind.

Here's a pic of the 3600 & 510M together. Notice the spread in the gain knobs... Hopefully that can be fixed.
84743

brutal
08-18-2019, 12:10 AM
I've owned my L112s since they were new some 38-years ago. Never had any problem filling a room or the outdoors with all the volume I needed. They've never had anything powering them beyond a Crown D150 for all those years. Try another amp. :yes:

I drove L112's with a Yamaha M-4 amp (spec 125WPC, usually bench testing higher to as much as 170WPC before clipping) for decades at earth shattering volumes with no ill effects. I currently run my 250Ti's with bridged Yamaha PC2002M (~700W) and have run them with bridged PC4002M (1.5KW) and they hit hard with little fatigue. The PC5002M in stereo @500WPC was a flop.

JBL's (and most any other speaker) needs clean, distortion free power.

DerekTheGreat
08-19-2019, 03:40 AM
Well, I haven't had good experiences with the handful of Yamaha stuff I've tried. I suppose I'm open to trashing my original concept of building a better late 70's early '80's setup than my dad had in favor of better gear. But I do like the Marantz sound. It's warm and slightly relaxed. I can leave the EQ settings flat and just attenuate the pots on the L150A's instead. What other amp & preamp combos will match that sound or best it for roughly $2,500? 'Cause that's about what I've got into that stuff you see in the pics.

Although to play devil's advocate, did you see some of my earlier posts where I put that Yammie head to head against the Marantz stuff I've got? In short, both caused the left woofer to produce that popping noise. Lastly, the Marantz edged out the Yamaha in sound quality and overall loudness & distortion free listening. And that was while "wounded" as I put it. The Yammie started to audibly distort before it produced the popping noise while the Marantz was tickling the "peak" lights a bit more often than usual. The popping happened as the "peak" lights were NOT lit, for what that's worth.

I still think I've got a bum 128H or a bad job on the recone. This weekend was a busy one. Sunday I got around to downloading AudioTool (which is awesome, I like it. Thanks Earl!) Also thanks to Mac for sending me a link but since I don't use my home computer much and Windows 10 likes to update every time I do (which takes hours..) I broke down and forked over cash for AudioTool as I didn't want to wait. I used a 20hz test tone to get the woofers moving a pretty good deal. I used the Yammie as the Marantz stuff is under the knife. No popping noise when using the tone but I did notice the PR300's were fluttering like a humming bird's wings. Could feel a bit of air leaking from the fasteners on the left side. The PR's also made a bit of noise themselves, like a faint rattle. Decided to pull the woofers and PR's out to clean up the o-rings & mating surfaces and verify the PR's had equal weight on each. Good thing I did that, the right side had five discs and the left side had three. I didn't see anyone else do this but I decided to put silicone on the o-ring mating surface for each woofer and on the threads of the fasteners to better seal the cabinets and to make removal easier. Never thought I'd be in and out of a speaker assy this often. End result is that the same test tone didn't produce as much movement from the woofers as I saw before so perhaps the cabinets are sealing better. At this point I think I'd need a smoke machine to find any other leaks, certainly didn't feel any. I also put silicone around the mids and their fasteners. Buut the left side still pops when driven. I tried rotating the left woofer 90 degrees and no difference. Popping isn't as loud as it was before recone but still sounds like the voice coil is rubbing, just not as bad. Only makes the noise when the woofer comes out into the room, not into the cabinet.

8481084811

Chris Brown
08-19-2019, 07:18 PM
I think you might be right, that I am expecting too much. I went through and reread Chris Brown's post about his L150's and he describes the same thing. Also says he reminds himself not to drive them so hard. I also think DavidF has a good point, that my gear is suspect.

I don't even know what Cerwins from the late 70's or early 80's look like, not a fan haha. The ones I've seen just have those trademark red surrounds and cheap looking vinyl siding. They have a party speaker reputation. I heard they pound but everything else is lacking, much like MTX. I am after neutrality & honesty with sound. The JBL's I've listened to have given me that, including these L150A's. But, while not a fan of Cerwin I am neutral and eager to hear a set but based on the reading I've done on them, I doubt I'd be happy any set I come across. What got me stuck on JBL's was they won the war between my old Bose 301's & E30's I think. Not to mention I've seen them all over at concerts and establishments in addition to recording studios. They must do something right. The cheapie Northridge series I have handled everything I threw at them, so I mistakenly assumed that must be a trademark of JBL in general. Hell, even their sales literature states the stuff can jam. F'in marketing strikes again haha.

I hope that I didn't give you the impression that they can't still put out serious bass. It's never been anything I could fault the woofers for when it happened to me. That made me wonder though, what do your cones look like while you are hearing popping? I mean are they really moving? I have some videos I made that are somewhat close to the limits of what the woofer can handle. I'd be curious what your cone movement is like compared to these videos:

Older video of my L150s, closeup of the 128H in action. Audio very distorted due to Webcam microphone not being up to the task but shows cone movement very well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zrm2QbCfU4

More recent overall system videos using my phone that have several closeups of the 128H woofers in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W4LfRDaGPg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWjJFfcRyrU
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWjJFfcRyrU)

It's really only the ultra-low bass that presents a risk at all, as that has the most excursion. If it does seem like an excursion issue, you might consider a subwoofer and using the subwoofer's crossover to limit the ultra-low bass from going to the L150s. You could use a very low crossover, something like 45hz or lower, which would still have the L150s producing a very large portion of the bass, but shifting the potential problem frequencies over to the sub.

Regarding the Cerwins, I had not one but two different pairs of D-9's in the past, considered to be one of their best from the era. I ultimately didn't have the room to keep them and my growing collection of JBLs at the same time. I spent extensive amount of time directly comparing my L150s against a pair of my D-9's and it was an easy victory for the L150s. While the D-9's might have been able to put out more raw output, the L150s weren't very far behind and the quality of the sound was clearly superior. I sold the D-9's to a friend where I had the chance to enjoy them countless more times afterward, but there is really something nice and special about the bass from the L150s, likely due to the passive radiator.


(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWjJFfcRyrU)

DerekTheGreat
08-20-2019, 03:39 AM
That's your video? I came upon that while researching the L150 & 150A before pulling the trigger on the set I have now. Amidst what originally sold me on 'em. I notice now that your SPL meter seemed to peak at 119 dB in that video, I'll keep that in mind for when mine actually shows up. Excursion is the issue, my woofers move out and in much further than yours did in the video. Seems like they try to move a good two inches out from their resting position at times and that is what does it. Guess I could get a subwoofer but I've never really heard any that were musical and the only one I know of that is vintage is that one JBL unit, a 460 or something. Super spendy and then I need an amp and controller for it.. Anyway, like you said about the bass of L150's, there's this texture to them, I like the way it sounds.

How do you like your L100T3's? Have you ever listened to 240Ti's? What would your opinion be of the two of them? Someone suggested building my own L220's from naked cabinets and I wonder if all of the drivers from a 240Ti would fit in the cabinet of a L220. I'd like to stay with a tower or floor standing speaker, not a fan of speakers on stands for this particular room.

Those Cerwin D-9's look like the Cerwin's I've seen in my past. I just can't get past how cheap and "homemade" Cerwins of that era look. Like as if the mids & woofer came straight from Radioshack and the cabinets were repurposed from cheap laminate tables.. Vintage JBL's look elegant by comparison. My one friend said my L150A's look "like something from grandpa's basement" but that's just fine by me.

Anyone have any recommendations for a crossover I can use with my system, preferably vintage? My preamp does have a 30hz filter but I think that's a tad too low, 40hz would be better suited to what I'm doing.

Biamping sounds like an idea too. But that means getting another 510M if I keep with the vintage theme. Over 500watts. Yikes. Haven't done the math yet but at some point I'm going to cross the threshold of what that particular circuit can supply.

macaroonie
08-20-2019, 09:05 AM
Here's a suggestion I made to a poster over on AK re 220's. He had some beat up stuff but his cabs were not that bad.

So , what I'm getting at is that the empty cabs that are available would be a good starting point , do my cab mods as shown , fire in a le14H or if you are feeling special 2216 , add your horn of choice or stay with the le5 etc.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/took-home-a-load-of-jbls-today.846871/page-2


84816

grumpy
08-20-2019, 09:52 AM
Xmax for 128H is only 1/3" ... 2" is right out.

I would guess 1) simply expecting too much and over driving the system or 2) the box tuning (passive radiator in this case... seems there was a question there about the proper number of discs) is off quite a bit and not controlling the woofer motion at resonance... if the PRs are OK (compliance and weight) it may mean the woofers are not performing to spec. In any case, running them at more than 1/2" in 1/2" out is not recommended and noises/damage may well be expected. I would expect the PR/128H/box to be set up for minimum woofer motion (maximum PR motion) between 20-30Hz.

I ran a 300w/ch Perreaux high-current amp with the pair I have, and experienced no such excessive excursion or noises, but my listening preferences and environment could well be different. I doubt I ever hit 100w on peaks (cannon shots excepted) ;)

Robh3606
08-20-2019, 10:25 AM
JMHO but what I'm seeing in some of these videos is blatant abuse. You should never run drivers that hard especially vintage ones where parts are scarce or unobtanium. Get a sub if you want to run drivers that hard at least they are designed for it.


Rob:)

DerekTheGreat
08-20-2019, 10:57 AM
Xmax for 128H is only 1/3" ... 2" is right out.

I would guess 1) simply expecting too much and over driving the system or 2) the box tuning (passive radiator in this case... seems there was a question there about the proper number of discs) is off quite a bit and not controlling the woofer motion at resonance... if the PRs are OK (compliance and weight) it may mean the woofers are not performing to spec. In any case, running them at more than 1/2" in 1/2" out is not recommended and noises/damage may well be expected. I would expect the PR/128H/box to be set up for minimum woofer motion (maximum PR motion) between 20-30Hz.

I ran a 300w/ch Perreaux high-current amp with the pair I have, and experienced no such excessive excursion or noises, but my listening preferences and environment could well be different. I doubt I ever hit 100w on peaks (cannon shots excepted) ;)

Well maybe it was closer to 1", not sure, just eye balling it. I'd post a video but I don't use any video linking sites and don't feel like making another account somewhere I'll only use once. Maybe this weekend though. I put four discs back on each PR300 as they are supposed to have. Short of buying a smoke machine I can't feel any other leaks. I sealed the cabinets the best I could. I don't think I'm listening that loud, SPL meter will confirm it and then I'll report back so you guys can tell me whats going on.


JMHO but what I'm seeing in some of these videos is blatant abuse. You should never run drivers that hard especially vintage ones where parts are scarce or unobtanium. Get a sub if you want to run drivers that hard at least they are designed for it.

Rob:)

LoL if that's the case all this stuff is for sale. I don't listen to the electronic stuff Chris Brown does, I'm a classic rock guy. Grass roots type stuff. If it was all synthetically prepared I really don't want to listen to it.

But this stuff jammed yesterday so why can't it jam today?

Mac,
If I can find an empty set of decent L220 cabinets, I will go to work making something home brew. I would keep the passive radiator though.

macaroonie
08-20-2019, 11:19 AM
Three points +

220 & 222 are physically BIG boxes. That's why I came up with the chop option.
Uses a rear firing port although it could go on the front valance.

JBL pretty much dumped PR after this series. Ponder as to why.

You wouldn't be using your loudness button ? If so your amp is going beyond its ability to supply current and the damping factor is insufficient to keep the 128 under control.

The chop option offers quite a few good avenues as to driver load. Me I'd be looking at LE14H-1 , a horn mid and a slot tweet 077/2405/ For practical purposes you are in L300 territory. Now that is a long way up the totem pole from the L150.

rusty jefferson
08-20-2019, 01:17 PM
......But this stuff jammed yesterday so why can't it jam today?......
Same reason people can't do things at 70 they can do at 20. Things become more fragile, require more care and less abuse. :)

Now that I see what you're doing, a couple of those Utlimax subwoofers like in the video would be in order. A pair of the 18" with your JBLs high passed would let you hit it as hard as you like. The vintage subs like the B380/BX63A combo probably wouldn't keep up.

Are you using a digital source, or analogue (vinyl)? If you've got a mismatch between cartridge and phono preamp, I've seen huge woofer excursion at high volume.

Mr. Widget
08-20-2019, 05:05 PM
JMHO but what I'm seeing in some of these videos is blatant abuse. You should never run drivers that hard especially vintage ones where parts are scarce or unobtanium. +1



You wouldn't be using your loudness button ? :hmm:


Are you using a digital source, or analogue (vinyl)? If you've got a mismatch between cartridge and phono preamp, I've seen huge woofer excursion at high volume. +1

Also, a record with a bit of warp turned up high on a system without mega isolation will create infrasonic feedback. Massive cone movement with little acoustic output, but potentially woofer destroying and amp power wasting.


Widget

brutal
08-20-2019, 05:30 PM
Well, I haven't had good experiences with the handful of Yamaha stuff I've tried. I suppose I'm open to trashing my original concept of building a better late 70's early '80's setup than my dad had in favor of better gear. But I do like the Marantz sound. It's warm and slightly relaxed. I can leave the EQ settings flat and just attenuate the pots on the L150A's instead. What other amp & preamp combos will match that sound or best it for roughly $2,500? 'Cause that's about what I've got into that stuff you see in the pics.

Although to play devil's advocate, did you see some of my earlier posts where I put that Yammie head to head against the Marantz stuff I've got? In short, both caused the left woofer to produce that popping noise. Lastly, the Marantz edged out the Yamaha in sound quality and overall loudness & distortion free listening. And that was while "wounded" as I put it. The Yammie started to audibly distort before it produced the popping noise while the Marantz was tickling the "peak" lights a bit more often than usual. The popping happened as the "peak" lights were NOT lit, for what that's worth.

I still think I've got a bum 128H or a bad job on the recone. This weekend was a busy one. Sunday I got around to downloading AudioTool (which is awesome, I like it. Thanks Earl!) Also thanks to Mac for sending me a link but since I don't use my home computer much and Windows 10 likes to update every time I do (which takes hours..) I broke down and forked over cash for AudioTool as I didn't want to wait. I used a 20hz test tone to get the woofers moving a pretty good deal. I used the Yammie as the Marantz stuff is under the knife. No popping noise when using the tone but I did notice the PR300's were fluttering like a humming bird's wings. Could feel a bit of air leaking from the fasteners on the left side. The PR's also made a bit of noise themselves, like a faint rattle. Decided to pull the woofers and PR's out to clean up the o-rings & mating surfaces and verify the PR's had equal weight on each. Good thing I did that, the right side had five discs and the left side had three. I didn't see anyone else do this but I decided to put silicone on the o-ring mating surface for each woofer and on the threads of the fasteners to better seal the cabinets and to make removal easier. Never thought I'd be in and out of a speaker assy this often. End result is that the same test tone didn't produce as much movement from the woofers as I saw before so perhaps the cabinets are sealing better. At this point I think I'd need a smoke machine to find any other leaks, certainly didn't feel any. I also put silicone around the mids and their fasteners. Buut the left side still pops when driven. I tried rotating the left woofer 90 degrees and no difference. Popping isn't as loud as it was before recone but still sounds like the voice coil is rubbing, just not as bad. Only makes the noise when the woofer comes out into the room, not into the cabinet.



I wouldn't exactly call a 10 year old low end $50 thrift store Yamaha HT receiver indicative of Yamaha Hi-Fi quality. It's not even a fair fight to pit a vintage kit against that "thing" and I sure wouldn't drive a nice pair of vintage JBL's with it. Don't get me wrong, I've run modern Yamaha HT receivers for ages but always with outboard (vintage Hi-Fi and/or Pro) amplifiers.

Robh3606
08-20-2019, 06:21 PM
LoL if that's the case all this stuff is for sale. I don't listen to the electronic stuff Chris Brown does, I'm a classic rock guy. Grass roots type stuff. If it was all synthetically prepared I really don't want to listen to it.


What you may not realize is that system came out 3 years before the first CD player in 1982. So 1979 40 years ago. There is a big difference between the low end on a typical Vinyl record which was rolled off compressed and frequency limited compared to a modern CD where this is simply not an issue. These systems were tuned for the media available at the time. Passive Radiators are essentially reflex boxes and if you put any serious power into them below the box tuning it can unload and you can get unpredictable and excessive cone excursions.

Remember when the original Half speed masters came out?? Many had a caution on them for playback level for both a mistracking stylus and what was then extreme bass response as far as level and frequency. It would do well to remember just how old these systems are and how much the media has changed.


When you think about it they really did do a great job on some of these older systems it's amazing how well some of them have held up and how good they still sound on modern media.

Rob:)

Chris Brown
08-20-2019, 06:46 PM
How do you like your L100T3's? Have you ever listened to 240Ti's? What would your opinion be of the two of them?

I've heard the 240Ti's before, but never side by side with my L100T's and not since I had my L100T crossovers upgraded to t3 spec. I would probably give the edge to the 240Ti. I liked the highs on the 240Ti better, but I also like the highs on my L100Ts a lot better since having the crossovers upgraded. Wish I had a chance to compare them today. I felt like the woofer in the 240Ti maybe had a bit more grunt to it, but the 2214H in the L100T really wasn't far behind, with itself having twice the power handling of the 128H in the L150. I like the L100Ts a lot but they are overall somewhat overshadowed by the L150s in my system which are still my favorite despite being technically inferior to the L100Ts in certain respects.



But this stuff jammed yesterday so why can't it jam today?

Different people are going to have different opinions on how hard things should be pushed. I've had my L150s for almost 2 decades now and I run them hard with bass heavy content almost every single day (though not always to the extent seen in the videos). When you run the same speakers for a long time you get to the point where you have a pretty good idea of what they can handle. I see no reason to baby them just because of their age. Of course there is still a big difference between pushing something close to it's limits and crossing those limits, with understanding their limits being the first step. I regularly remove the woofers from their cabinets and carefully inspect for any warnings signs or needed maintenance. Based on my observations and personal experiences with these speakers over so many years, I have no reason to believe that they won't last another several decades or more. They might not last forever, but neither will I. Might as well enjoy myself while I have the chance.

DerekTheGreat
08-21-2019, 04:33 AM
Three points +

220 & 222 are physically BIG boxes. That's why I came up with the chop option.
Uses a rear firing port although it could go on the front valance.

JBL pretty much dumped PR after this series. Ponder as to why.

You wouldn't be using your loudness button ? If so your amp is going beyond its ability to supply current and the damping factor is insufficient to keep the 128 under control.

The chop option offers quite a few good avenues as to driver load. Me I'd be looking at LE14H-1 , a horn mid and a slot tweet 077/2405/ For practical purposes you are in L300 territory. Now that is a long way up the totem pole from the L150.
I'd need to do further research but from what I saw the L220 has a 14" woofer and so does the 240Ti, I'm not sure but I'm hoping in terms of volume that the 14" in a 240Ti will work just dandy in the cabinet of an L220. Don't know if it's a direct swap in terms of fasteners though, appears to be.

Just a sign of the times perhaps, doesn't mean that a PR is inferior. Just like they for the most part, have dumped pushrods and single camshafts in engines. Still damn fine tech and in my experience it is far more dependable and reliable than what replaced it. It's just not as efficient so it got cannibalized, just the way of consumerism really. Like look at how many modern speakers seem to employ that dual woofer design like the E90's I've got. Trends..

The Yammie doesn't have a loudness button, instead, it has a bass extension button. Whatever that is. I do use that at lower levels but turn it off when driving the system. But with the tone controls flat, the Yammie sounds awful. Obviously, with the tone settings active I can't and don't run the amp as hard. It's easy to tell when that thing is running out of steam. The Marantz does have a loudness button and I do like it. From what I've read, it is only active at lower volumes and then turns itself down & off as you increase the volume. I've experimented with that and confirmed it, so I leave it on. I leave the tone control on the preamp flat, except for midrange where I have it taken down a smidge.


Same reason people can't do things at 70 they can do at 20. Things become more fragile, require more care and less abuse. :)

Now that I see what you're doing, a couple of those Utlimax subwoofers like in the video would be in order. A pair of the 18" with your JBLs high passed would let you hit it as hard as you like. The vintage subs like the B380/BX63A combo probably wouldn't keep up.

Are you using a digital source, or analogue (vinyl)? If you've got a mismatch between cartridge and phono preamp, I've seen huge woofer excursion at high volume.

I'm not sure I believe that just yet. Humans and electronics aren't the same, by that logic it would be like saying that I can't drive my 1989 K1500 as hard because it's 30 years old. I drive it daily, it burns no oil and I even beat on it. It's a lot of fun off road and in the winter time when snow falls. ;) I replace what wears out as it does and it just keeps on running. Actually, it was in the shop far less than my 2011 Colorado was and I bought that new. Sold it after three years in favor of running "old junk" as my peers call it. Let them waste money, it's what makes the world go 'round.
If that is true, then I wasted money having the woofers reconed. I figured by doing that, I replaced what wears out, as I read about the suspensions getting old & tired on vintage speakers. But what Robh said makes sense; these were made before the release of CD's and digital recording methods. When I started reading about 240Ti's I saw sales propaganda about the 240Ti in which JBL boasted that many of their products were already "digital ready" and I'm assuming that is what they were talking about. So that seems to be what the issue is here.

I am using a digital source in addition to a turntable, which I haven't brought upstairs yet. But I'm not listening to synthesized stuff like shown in the videos. However, much of what I've got is now digital and has been remastered, like my entire Beatles, Queen and Led Zeppelin catalog. I really don't want to go the subwoofer route, as it's a hodgepodge of crap- vintage amps, speakers and then shiny new subwoofers. I think what I'll end up doing is trying to find an older equalizer, cutting off the lows starting at 40 or 50hz and then worst case scenario, move the L150A's downstairs in favor of 240Ti's. Down there I already have subwoofers and the Marantz SR7005 has LPF's I already employ with the E90's that will also be employed with the L150A's should I go that route. I also biamp the E90's so I might look into biamping the L150A's as well.


I wouldn't exactly call a 10 year old low end $50 thrift store Yamaha HT receiver indicative of Yamaha Hi-Fi quality. It's not even a fair fight to pit a vintage kit against that "thing" and I sure wouldn't drive a nice pair of vintage JBL's with it. Don't get me wrong, I've run modern Yamaha HT receivers for ages but always with outboard (vintage Hi-Fi and/or Pro) amplifiers.
It was a $900 receiver when new in 1998. HT? This is an R-V series: https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/r-v1105.shtml
All of the home theater receivers are worth essentially nothing after ten years or so, short of the THX certified ones. My guess is that's just because nothing stands out about them. But this wasn't thrift store trash in it's day. It is now (to me) and had it not been part of the package deal with the L150A's when I bought them, I wouldn't have bought it myself. Short of the face off, I do not drive my L150A's hard with it, I just use it as a scab for the Marantz 510M while it is being repaired. Originally, I was going to use it to drive my garage speakers.


What you may not realize is that system came out 3 years before the first CD player in 1982. So 1979 40 years ago. There is a big difference between the low end on a typical Vinyl record which was rolled off compressed and frequency limited compared to a modern CD where this is simply not an issue. These systems were tuned for the media available at the time. Passive Radiators are essentially reflex boxes and if you put any serious power into them below the box tuning it can unload and you can get unpredictable and excessive cone excursions.

Remember when the original Half speed masters came out?? Many had a caution on them for playback level for both a mistracking stylus and what was then extreme bass response as far as level and frequency. It would do well to remember just how old these systems are and how much the media has changed.

When you think about it they really did do a great job on some of these older systems it's amazing how well some of them have held up and how good they still sound on modern media.

Rob:)

I did start to read about stuff along those lines, digital vs analog techniques and such. JBL even made mention of it as I said in response to another member's comment. So that I can believe. In the end, it looks like I may have to try and sell these. If I can't break even, then they'll replace the E90's I have. Next up to try will be 240Ti's and then some older subwoofers hidden in a corner, much like my shame.


I've heard the 240Ti's before, but never side by side with my L100T's and not since I had my L100T crossovers upgraded to t3 spec. I would probably give the edge to the 240Ti. I liked the highs on the 240Ti better, but I also like the highs on my L100Ts a lot better since having the crossovers upgraded. Wish I had a chance to compare them today. I felt like the woofer in the 240Ti maybe had a bit more grunt to it, but the 2214H in the L100T really wasn't far behind, with itself having twice the power handling of the 128H in the L150. I like the L100Ts a lot but they are overall somewhat overshadowed by the L150s in my system which are still my favorite despite being technically inferior to the L100Ts in certain respects.


Different people are going to have different opinions on how hard things should be pushed. I've had my L150s for almost 2 decades now and I run them hard with bass heavy content almost every single day (though not always to the extent seen in the videos). When you run the same speakers for a long time you get to the point where you have a pretty good idea of what they can handle. I see no reason to baby them just because of their age. Of course there is still a big difference between pushing something close to it's limits and crossing those limits, with understanding their limits being the first step. I regularly remove the woofers from their cabinets and carefully inspect for any warnings signs or needed maintenance. Based on my observations and personal experiences with these speakers over so many years, I have no reason to believe that they won't last another several decades or more. They might not last forever, but neither will I. Might as well enjoy myself while I have the chance.

Seeing as L100T3's go for about as much as 240Ti's do, I think I'll try and find 240's based on your opinion and several others I've read. I also like that I can attenuate the mids & highs via the built in resistors in the X/O network of the 240's, 100T3's have no such provision.. Seems a lot of people prefer the highs and mids of a 240 to the T3's. Which is also why I wanted to try and replace the mids & tweeters of my L150A's with the stuff from a 240Ti as they look to be drop in replacements. But, the mids and highs of my 150's are enjoyable to me, the issue is the bottom end.

Well, that's how I feel about these things. But maybe due to when they were made (before the digital era) they might not be right for me.

Thanks for all the replies fellas!

macaroonie
08-21-2019, 04:52 AM
Derek , run that sweep I sent you and watch what happens with the PR v the driver.
Do it at mid volume.

DerekTheGreat
08-27-2019, 03:13 AM
Derek , run that sweep I sent you and watch what happens with the PR v the driver.
Do it at mid volume.
This weekend was a productive one; I swapped axles in the wife's truck and then dealt with my computer to retrieve that sweep file.

I ran it initially at 50% like you suggested and then up to about 80% "throttle" on the Yamaha, no ill effects and very similar results like I experienced with AudioTool. I like that a bit more for leak checking and to check pop. Although for fear of burning out my woofer's voice coils I didn't run either of those hard enough to produce pop. I'll run it some more today but didn't notice the PR's moving all that much. So I pulled the 128Hs again and swapped cabinets. I also checked each by moving them in and out by hand. The woofer which makes the popping noise rubs at the last 1/4" of outward travel. The other woofer is just fine by comparison. So I suspect either the pole piece is out of alignment or the recone job on it was trash. It's better than it used to be, but the rub is still there. :dont-know:

Marantz stuff still out of commission. That must be F'd up pretty good.

If someone can link a video which shows how the PR300's should be moving in relation to the 128Hs' action, that would be incredibly useful to me.

edgewound
08-29-2019, 10:15 AM
This weekend was a productive one; I swapped axles in the wife's truck and then dealt with my computer to retrieve that sweep file.

I ran it initially at 50% like you suggested and then up to about 80% "throttle" on the Yamaha, no ill effects and very similar results like I experienced with AudioTool. I like that a bit more for leak checking and to check pop. Although for fear of burning out my woofer's voice coils I didn't run either of those hard enough to produce pop. I'll run it some more today but didn't notice the PR's moving all that much. So I pulled the 128Hs again and swapped cabinets. I also checked each by moving them in and out by hand. The woofer which makes the popping noise rubs at the last 1/4" of outward travel. The other woofer is just fine by comparison. So I suspect either the pole piece is out of alignment or the recone job on it was trash. It's better than it used to be, but the rub is still there. :dont-know:

Marantz stuff still out of commission. That must be F'd up pretty good.

If someone can link a video which shows how the PR300's should be moving in relation to the 128Hs' action, that would be incredibly useful to me.

The passive radiator works on the same principal as a bass reflex vent. At the mass-weighted tuning resonance of the PR300, the excursion...movement...of the 128H will be not discernable, as the PR300 is making bass at this frequency. A sweep test will help you determine what the actual resonant frequency the the PR is weighted for.

It also would not surprise me if your speaker is reconed with aftermarket parts devoid of aquaplas, that it's never going to sound like it should. The moving mass and dampening of the cone is what makes the 128H a 128H. Otherwise, it's just a bad recone of a 12" woofer. Could be the voice coil is not in it's correct static position in the gap. I see this crap all the time. It's also highly unlikely the pole piece is out of alignment unless the gap was shifted from a broken bond of the top plate or back plate and not realigned properly.


https://www.facebook.com/UplandLoudspeaker/videos/2537412589819370/

https://www.facebook.com/UplandLoudspeaker/videos/463768207742105/

DerekTheGreat
08-30-2019, 03:56 AM
The PR300 seems to flutter like a humming bird's wings at 35hz, does that mean that is the frequency they're tuned for? Each PR has four weight discs on it. I've heard adding more will lower the frequency and subtracting them will increase the frequency. I'm a laymen so factory settings for me, although to be honest, I wouldn't mind a bump in the 60-90hz region.

If you have the time, please read through the thread. The speakers were reconed with 129H-1 kits IIRC, they did not have AquaPlas on them and despite me communicating back and forth with my reconer (who does show up on Harmon's website as an authorized technician) that they are available, she insisted they are not. Now that I've done my homework after the exam, I see she does not have the equipment at her disposal like you and sguttag do. A bummer for sure, as now I have more sad news to report and are hoping either you or sguttag could help me out here.. Long story short is that I'm looking to have both woofers reconed/repaired correctly with actual JBL parts by someone who knows what they're doing and is willing to help me. Should have done this from the start. Hindsight is always 20/20.. But I'm on a budget, I've got too much money wrapped up into all of this already. So if none of you fine folks feel like helping me, would 2213 or 123A woofers work in place of my 128H's? I don't know what you guys would want to repair my original woofers. I've got ~$400 slotted to do this and the reason I bring up the other woofers is because I can snag a pair of them for about ~$300 not including shipping. Please advise.

Long Story:Here's the bummer: I got my Marantz stuff back yesterday. Amp tested at 305 WPC before distortion at 8 ohms. Pretty impressive. They definitely screwed something up before because my complaints were resolved and yet they acted like nothing was wrong, "All channels came up evenly like they should but we cleaned a few things and made a couple tweaks." Uh huh, and that took 3.5 weeks? I was polite of course, never called & pestered them and was happy to pick up the amp after they called me. Mistakes happen, we're human.

Well, I hooked everything up, set my gain and such & ran the test tones & sweep. Some noise was present on the suspect woofer, but nothing like before. Listened for a good twenty minutes at lower levels (60dB or less) before moving to my Cars playlist. Dangerous Type came on, had to jam & see what would happen. Amp was definitely wounded before as now it was playing louder and with less effort. I was ready to call victory! I had achieved what I wanted, loud listening level with a little more oomph left for those guitar interludes as I wanted. Bum woofer said NOPE! It just died without incident. No rubbing or pop sounds, just silence.

macaroonie
08-30-2019, 06:28 AM
Yikes Derek , you're not having much luck. Edgewound is yer man for reconing BTW.

M

DerekTheGreat
12-16-2019, 04:46 AM
Still waiting on my woofers...

In the interim, I picked up a set of BEAT Klipsch Cornwall I's. Way back before I bought my L150A's it was down to a pair of these or the JBL's. The Corns sold so that made the choice easy back then but now... Let me just say that these things F'n rock. None of that B.S. woofer voice coil rub like I experienced with my 150A's at ANY level. I forget who it was that posted you shouldn't be rockin' old dogs like that Marantz 510M or the JBL 150A's like I was which is why I needed a recone. Yeah, tell that to Paul Klipsch! ;) These things are just so efficient and the Marantz jams 'em with ease.

Listening critically though, the JBL L150A's edge out the Cornies. The midrange has more sparkle, the treble is more detailed and precise. Bass goes lower and is more life like & tighter. More life-like than the Cornwalls. I do have a subwoofer, a M&K MX350THX or something like that. I left it unhooked for testing, it's still unhooked, don't really need it.. Anyway, we partied pretty good with those Cornwalls Saturday night after I got them hooked up. Listened to the ole crowd pleasers, Eagles, Steely Dan, Cake, Cars, War and of course, MC Hammer to test out woofer excursion. We listened to much more than that but once we set the alarm off from the volume we realized our drinks needed a refill and toned it down. I also realized that the Cornwalls didn't fatigue my ears much at all. I wasn't sure of what to expect with horns but I was pleasantly surprised. Had I started with just these, I'd probably still have my old Marantz 4300. I opened them up to have a gander at their build quality. Not much in the way of sound deadener but I do like how their crossover network is arranged and the the wire they used is nice and thick gauge unlike the L150A's with all their hot glue snot and skinny 14 or 16 gauge wire.. However, I do like that JBL developed their own drivers, it's clear Eminence made the K33E's for Klipsch and they aren't as stout in appearance when contrasted against the 128H's in the L150A's. Makes me wonder about the origins of the K77 squawker and K55V mid horn..

Bottom line is, if you can score a set of Cornwalls for cheap, you won't be disappointed. But the L150A is a superior speaker to my ears. Listening to the Cornwalls made me miss my L150A's though, almost shed a tear for 'em. If they had feelings, I'm sure they're looking at those Cornwalls as "the other woman." And just like Ray Parker Jr. said, "Life was fine until she blew my mind.."

DerekTheGreat
01-13-2020, 04:56 AM
Ken (edgewound) contacted me a few weeks later to let me know the speakers were done and so I paid my invoice and waited for some woofs to show up... This past Sunday, they did...

To recap, I purchased my L150A's without listening to them and found out shortly after hooking them up to my Marantz 4300 that the 128H's had voice coil rub. I ran the gamut with a local reconer, refoamed both woofers which didn't work out (she credited the money spent towards a recone) and then she eventually reconed them with C8R129H recone kits (as reported by edgewound later) which still had the issue and the one woofer failed yet again. At this point I was ready to throw in the towel but a few members on here were kind enough to offer me their services but edgewound was the only one who replied and I sent the woofers to his business, Upland Loudspeaker Service. Originally, we discussed having the woofers custom done with the correct formulation of Aquaplas hand applied by him to factory specs as the recone kit for 128H's wasn't currently available, C8R128H. In the end, life got in the way and JBL released a batch of C8R128H's and that's what edgewound installed and shipped back to me...

I took the sheets off my L150A's and installed the woofers, unhooked the scab Klipsch Cornwalls and let them play for a minute. Bass response isn't what I remember it being down low but I've heard and even read on here that new surrounds need to break in for awhile and I want to let them do just that before I really push them. But with what I did test out, I think it's safe to say they're fixed! No "Brap!" noise when the woofers come out into the room and no noise whatsoever from them for that matter. Ken did a fantastic job with them and it was well worth the wait. He even dates his stuff! I'm very satisfied with the way they were shipped back to me and the job over all, I didn't have much hope after what I had experienced previously. Needless to say, as long as Ken doesn't mind, I'll happily ship my stuff to him moving forward and he's the first person I will call. On that note, I have noticed that my PR300's look to have been reconed with the improper cone as well. Shouldn't they be black? Aye carumba. Maybe one day those will be the next to be fixed but for now, I want to enjoy these things. Thinking of buying crossovers specific to a L150A and modifying them for biamp use as that's the next route I want to go. I'll make a separate thread for that. Going to try and attach pics!


856438564485645

brutal
01-13-2020, 02:33 PM
Glad to see you got things sorted out.

If they've been exposed to sun, the black will fade.


I recently refoamed a pair of 127H-1 in a set of L80T I gave to a friend a few years ago for some "shop" speakers. I should have inspected them better and run them harder before giving them back. Turns out the spiders were toast as he said one was "popping" and he thought it was the crossover. I believe he was previously running them hard with roasted surrounds. :-(

I pulled them back out and saw one of the spiders had a small tear/separation from the VC. Had I not been able to find a pair of local C8R127H recone kits, I was going to contact Ken about possibly getting them done. The alternative was to part out the L80T's and help with with a replacement pair of speakers. Unfortunately, the only thing I have left that I might consider letting go would be the pair of L100T's in spaghetti wood veneer I still have. That or a more modern pair of S38II. It just wouldn't be right to use anything else I have left here in his shop (and I'd rather not give him more valuable speakers).

After cutting out the cones, I could see that there were more cracks in both spiders on both drivers. They were pretty dried out, too weak, and fragile.

Oddly, while the serial numbers were very close on the recone kits I picked up, the glue in the kits didn't anywhere near match. One (factory sealed) had the old Bostic - expiration 2004, the other (opened) a Moyen 3087 tube - expiration 2019. Makes me think maybe someone replaced the glue in the opened one. Good for me, but I didn't realize the difference until I ran out before getting the dust caps installed so they'll get (dries clear) CPVA that a supplier sends with his surrounds. I've used it before and you can hardly tell it's not black against the black cone and black dustcap. Certainly not something that will get noticed under the grilles sitting 10' up in his shop on top of a mezzanine.

This adventure is making me rethink replacing the surrounds on my LE14-1's in my 250Ti's instead of having them reconed and to that point, I wouldn't hesitate to use Ken @Upland for that. I've also been watching some of his great videos.

DerekTheGreat
01-14-2020, 04:36 AM
Thanks brutal!

I really can't express how happy I am now that these are back in action flawlessly. Sorry about the L80T's, did you get them back in shape or hand over the L100T's? L100T3's and 240Ti's are on my list of speakers I'd like to demo, as well as XPL-200A's, L220's and ultimately some 4345's. Dreams haha. I envy those 250Ti's of yours as well.

brutal
01-22-2020, 11:57 PM
Thanks brutal!

I really can't express how happy I am now that these are back in action flawlessly. Sorry about the L80T's, did you get them back in shape or hand over the L100T's? L100T3's and 240Ti's are on my list of speakers I'd like to demo, as well as XPL-200A's, L220's and ultimately some 4345's. Dreams haha. I envy those 250Ti's of yours as well.

The L80T's are back in action in my friend's shop and he's loving them again. I told him to give them a little time to break in before he puts the coals to them.

The recone went great and they're back to as factory fresh as I can make them.

My 250Ti's need a refoam and probably the 044Ti innards have turned to mush by now. They've been sitting idle for a year now since we remodeled and I had to move them.

DerekTheGreat
01-23-2020, 04:22 AM
Nice. I'd like to try my hands at a refoam/recone and potentially a tweeter plug refurb.

kmanusa
01-25-2020, 04:41 PM
Glad to see you got things sorted out.

....This adventure is making me rethink replacing the surrounds on my LE14-1's in my 250Ti's instead of having them reconed and to that point, I wouldn't hesitate to use Ken @Upland for that. I've also been watching some of his great videos.

I sent Ken the LE-14Hs from my 250Tis and he did an outstanding job— replacing surrounds and spiders, gap cleaning, and filter replacement. They should last the rest of my lifetime. I wouldn’t think of going anywhere else.

SEAWOLF97
01-25-2020, 06:25 PM
My 250Ti's need a refoam and probably the 044Ti innards have turned to mush by now. They've been sitting idle for a year now since we remodeled and I had to move them.

It all depends on your DIY capabilities, of course .... but of all the refoams that I've done ... the LE-14-H1's were the absolute easiest (they self center on the outer edge), $30 for foams from R.Cobb, tho I would not recommend learning on expensive drivers. YMMV.

There is also a thread around here about refoaming the internal plugs in the 044Ti.

Nothing is difficult for the person who can afford to pay someone else to do it. :)

brutal
01-25-2020, 11:16 PM
It all depends on your DIY capabilities, of course .... but of all the refoams that I've done ... the LE-14-H1's were the absolute easiest (they self center on the outer edge), $30 for foams from R.Cobb, tho I would not recommend learning on expensive drivers. YMMV.

There is also a thread around here about refoaming the internal plugs in the 044Ti.

Nothing is difficult for the person who can afford to pay someone else to do it. :)

I've done plenty of surrounds and not failed one yet, all from Rick. I already have the foams for the LE14H-1's. If the spiders seem solid, I'll probably just refoam them. I can always send them out to Ken for a re-suspend. If I could get the recone kits, I'd do those myself as I have done several recones as well using NOS parts. I can run a variable frequency and power level sweep through them with my bench equipment during repairs so I got that covered.

However, I'm not sure I'm up for tearing into the 044Ti's... yet. I do have spares - mostly in other pairs of Ti's with IIRC, one spare sitting on a shelf. I actually might have a damaged one from the original purchase move that insurance paid for that I can experiment on. I'll have to go look again. Otherwise, I'm going to have to noodle on that one.

I also recently found a 104H (not in my 250Ti's) that has a dented dome so I'm working on getting a replacement for those "rare as hen's teeth" parts. There are repops available if needed.

I should have ordered them from Harmon when they were still available...

Now, the 108H with a perfectly round peg sized hole in the surround is a different story and altogether a challenge.

SEAWOLF97
01-26-2020, 09:50 AM
I've done plenty of surrounds and not failed one yet, all from Rick. I already have the foams for the LE14H-1's. ...........

However, I'm not sure I'm up for tearing into the 044Ti's...

On the LE14-H1 , normally I glue the inner edge of the foam to the cone first, let it dry and then do the outer edge to the basket and do my centering with that one.

BUT that driver has a track for the surround to set in, so I glued that outer into the track and let dry. then tucked under and did the inner, thot I'd need to use that inner to center it, but it all "self-centered" just beautifully.

the 044Ti scared me too. I started this thread ===>>> http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29325-044Ti-questions-Help-needed&highlight=044ti

044Ti questions/Help needed

Grumpy and others talked me thru it, not as hard as imagined. BUT I got the 120Ti's up again and it was sure worth the effort, and now I'm ready for when I decide to do the 250ti's. ;)

brutal
01-26-2020, 01:48 PM
On the LE14-H1 , normally I glue the inner edge of the foam to the cone first, let it dry and then do the outer edge to the basket and do my centering with that one.

BUT that driver has a track for the surround to set in, so I glued that outer into the track and let dry. then tucked under and did the inner, thot I'd need to use that inner to center it, but it all "self-centered" just beautifully.

the 044Ti scared me too. I started this thread ===>>> http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29325-044Ti-questions-Help-needed&highlight=044ti

044Ti questions/Help needed

Grumpy and others talked me thru it, not as hard as imagined. BUT I got the 120Ti's up again and it was sure worth the effort, and now I'm ready for when I decide to do the 250ti's. ;)

Thanks for that tip!

I have a tendency to dry fit everything first as much as possible and look long and hard at the steps I intend to take. Maybe I would have figured that out, maybe not. The disadvantage of doing all the others in a different manner is making assumptions that may be invalid. That said, I'll have to go back and look at my LE14A refoam thread because I think that's how that one laid in as well.

SEAWOLF97
01-26-2020, 03:23 PM
Thanks for that tip!

I have a tendency to dry fit everything first as much as possible and look long and hard at the steps I intend to take. Maybe I would have figured that out, maybe not. The disadvantage of doing all the others in a different manner is making assumptions that may be invalid. That said, I'll have to go back and look at my LE14A refoam thread because I think that's how that one laid in as well.

you have the perfect correct procedure, dry fitting first.

IF you used the normal steps of gluing foam to cone first, and it was not perfectly centered, then it would not fit into the basket track w/o screwing up the cone alignment.

It's the only one I've ever encountered that is that way. :(