Paragon Bass

[ERWMS]

Hello: I am a great fan of vintage audio gear, and am fortunate to own a Paragon. It produces mesmerizing midrange but is distinctly bass-shy. My electronics include a McIntosh MCD-1100 CD player, Mac C-46 preamp, and a pair of Mac MC-30 power amps, with new or strong vintage tubes. I am planning to clean all connections with CRC QD contact cleaner. I welcome comments from people who have first-hand experience with Paragons. Is the 150-4C weak, even though it is a 15 inch speaker coupled to a folded horn? Any other suggestions to improve the bass? Thanks in advance. Roger

[ERWMS]

PS: This is an early Paragon with plywood construction, 150-4C woofers, and, of course 375 horns and 075 ring radiators. Condition is excellent and unrestored. I have not removed the woofers, but a friend did so a while back, took pictures, and found them to be in good condition. Roger

[Robh3606]

Hello Roger

Beautiful system!

I have no first hand experience with a Paragon however I have with Altec 604's. I also run E-145's in my mains which are a direct descendant of your 150's.

If you are OK with experimentation I would give a subwoofer a try. My E-145's work and sound great with subs!

Figure those are 40Hz woofers and that is a very small bass horn compared to say a Hartsfield that is corner loaded.

Rob :)

[Mr. Widget]

That is a beautiful system. If you want deep bass, I agree with Rob, the horn loading of the 150-4C woofers only exacerbates the low bass problem. The only way you’ll ever get deep bass is by adding a quality subwoofer.

Try a JL Audio e112 sub. One or two should give you the bottom end you’ve been missing and they are small enough to hide so no one needs to know. ;)


Widget

[martin_wu99]

That is a beautiful system. If you want deep bass, I agree with Rob, the horn loading of the 150-4C woofers only exacerbates the low bass problem. The only way you’ll ever get deep bass is by adding a quality subwoofer.

Try a JL Audio e112 sub. One or two should give you the bottom end you’ve been missing and they are small enough to hide so no one needs to know. ;)


Widget
Further more,which subwoofer will best match 150-4C for hifi purpose?2245 or 2269?I don't think JL e112 is the best choise:D

[Mr. Widget]

Further more,which subwoofer will best match 150-4C for hifi purpose?2245 or 2269?I don't think JL e112 is the best choise:DWhat exactly are you basing your hypothesis on?


Widget

[Dr.db]

I have to agree with the others, the paragon simply cannot produce very low bass by design/physics law.

But could you please specify your impression of "bass shy" ?
Is it just the very low bass that is missing?
Or is it the bass in general?

If the paragon is bass shy in the main bass (50-100hz) it might be the result of the room acoustics.
Before purchasing quality subs for a lot of money, I suggest you try to remove your paragon a little in your room and experiment. Moving just a few inches can have a huge impact on in-room-bassperformance! Maybe this allready solves all your problems.

If that doesn´t work and you need a sub...
Widget allready mentioned the JL Fathom Subs. They produce a stupid amount of infrabass and sound very clean. The W7 woofers are very capable. But this is a sub that definitly works in the very low bass only. I don´t like it above 50-60hz at all. If you just need to fill in the last octave, get the JL´s. If you are aiming for a crossover of 80hz and above go and look elsewhere, like JBL 2245, BMS 18N862 etc...

[ERWMS]

Thanks to all for your comments. I used Altec Flamencos for years (13.5 inch woofer) and was quite happy with their (unboosted) bass. I even have a pair of Monitor Audio RX-6’s which have a 6 inch woofer and they have bass production which is adequate for me. My Paragons are missing mid bass as well as deep bass. They sound “tinny” without considerable boost from the preamps’ equalizer. Does that help to more fully describe my problem?

Dr.db- I will move the speakers out a bit from the rear wall and see if that helps. Roger

[Dr.db]

Another idea that comes to mind whenever someone is reporting a loss of bass:
As silly as this sounds, but have you checked the wirring of the woofers? Interchanging the wires by mistake happens very easy, I have seen this dozens of times. With one woofer out of phase it cancels all the bass...
I´m indicating this, as you have mentioned your friend had removed both woofers... Maybe he interchanged the wires...

[martin_wu99]

What exactly are you basing your hypothesis on?


Widget
I once listened to JL e112 before,it is JL new production of entry-level, deep,punchy and fast,the price is very reasonable,but i think it is mainly for HT purpose:D
Driver: One 12"
Integral amplifier power: 1500W
Crossover: Line-level, variable frequency, fourth-order
Phase control: Continuously variable
Dimensions: 15.5" x 16.23" x 18.39"
Weight: 75.3 lbs.
Price: $1900 (black ash); $2100 (piano black)

[Mr. Widget]

I once listened to JL e112 before,it is JL new production of entry-level, deep,punchy and fast,the price is very reasonable,but...Exactly why I suggested it.

If the Paragon is working properly it should have solid bass down to 50-60Hz, and bringing in the JL below that should work well.


Widget

[Cyclotronguy]

On a budget an small the REL T7i and T9i are not to be overlooked

Cheers

[ERWMS]

Any other ideas why an unrestored and unmodified Paragon isn’t getting good bass into the 50 - 60 hz range? Could the crossovers be degraded through normal aging? Roger

[BMWCCA]

I suppose you could run your 150-4Cs direct, bypassing the crossover completely, without hurting anything. Might at least help determine if it's the networks sucking your bass out of the system.

That being said—and as much as I love a Paragon—the ones I heard in my youth were not much more impressive in the LF range than my 030s with a D130 in a C37 box. And that's not saying much! :dont-know:

[ERWMS]

Well, BMWCCA, I didn’t know that would work without causing other problems. I will try it and see what happens. Thanks. Roger

[Dr.db]

Have you checked the wiring yet?
I strongly suspect one woofer being out of phase and therefor cancelling the bass.

If you want to check this you don´t have to remove the woofers, just swap the + and - connection on one channel (input) of your paragon. Or swap it on one channel on the speaker outputs from your amp.
This takes 5 minutes and could safe you further investigations...

[BMWCCA]

. . . or running each channel by itself should give you the same diagnosis of phase/polarity issues. Even if that's just using your balance control. But I thought we diffused the wiring issue in an earlier post. Now I see that question went unanswered by the OP.

[martin_wu99]

Exactly why I suggested it.

If the Paragon is working properly it should have solid bass down to 50-60Hz, and bringing in the JL below that should work well.


Widget
But i think it is too faster than 150-4C.:crying:

[Guenter]

I had a newer Paragon with LE15A for several years and indeed there was much less bass than even in AR3a bookshelf speakers I purchased to replace them. However, the paragon took to equalization to below 35 Hz or thereabouts ‘very’ well.

[Goldjazz]

I listened to a Paragon at Kendrick sound a few years ago in person. I thought the bass was very good. The kick drum of this track stays with me: I could feel it deep inside my chest on every thud. I was sitting about 8 feet away from it. Not sure what mods if any he had done to make it sound like that. So that kind of result can be got from a "Paragon" without a sub.