L250Ti Review Stereophille 1985

[Robh3606]

Just wanted to post this. I found it very insightful of the state of mind in the industry at the time. I would also love to see some rebutal by owners in the forum. I will attach lower res scans. There is an alternate view included.

Rob:)

[MJC]

I've only listened to the 250s a few times, but I remember the first time at the Reno CC around '86~'87 I just stopped in the vestibule where they were setup. I just stood there for 10~15 minutes, thinking "If I didn't already own the L212 system I'd buy the 250Ti right then and there." But thought the better of it for TWF. As it turned out I should have bought the 250s.
As for the reviews above, all I can say is that we all have different hearing. And if that wasn't true there would not exist today htib trash speakers.
I'll take upper end JBLs any day!

[Don C]

Fascinating. I am wondering if this review affected the design of the XPL-200. "They want midrange? Give em some midrange!"

[4313B]

His review is pretty absurd from my perspective. And of course we all know he's about five years too late with the comment about the bypass capacitors. I've extensive experience with the 250Ti in a plethora of situations and he's completely missed the boat on pretty much the entire system. At least he got the top end response right. His listening room must really suck though. I've heard 250Ti's in less than decent settings and they are merely adequate in those situations.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Was the 250Ti a sales/ marketing success though?

Ian

[4313B]

I reckon perhaps not. By that time I think people were really concerned about peer pressure and rag reviews so they tended to gravitate towards the "loudspeaker of the week". I knew a few folks in JBL Marketing quite well at that time and they were having a hard time of it.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Perhaps it was more so perception of the dealers.

I recall the brochures etc were great but not many dealers stocked JBL out here and they were very expensive.Except for one dealer here in Melbourne who had a pair of 250's and was and is more a American west coast scene, infinity kappas, Klilpsch.

Everyone else was pushing Dynaudio's and similar stuff with Duntech the top end, then cd arrived and the wheels fell of the whole hi end thing.

So the market peneration for JBL was more a splinter.

Ian

[GordonW]

I wonder, what would have happened if JBL had have used the 104H2 mid instead of the 104H, in the 250Ti? IMHO, those treated-paper cone mids did much more toward the "midrange liveliness" goal than the poly cones ever did, even though the JBL poly cones were LEAGUES better than most other plastic cone driver built...

I'm planning a loose clone of the 250Ti, using a 2235H, 2118H, 104H and 035Ti, sometime. It'll be interesting to put this theory espoused above, to the test...

Regards,
Gordon.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yep,

My idea too Gordon,

Shake and bake and see what happens..seen Robs diy 4 way XP 200?

Ian

[Jakob]

Hmmm, it looks to me like someone's forgotten to clean their ears for a decade or two. Or maybe they did, but cleaned too deep and wiped out the inner ear and irreparably damaged their brains listening centre...At about the same time, middle 80's, there was a review in a german hi-fi magazine, "Stereo" I think it's called, and the 250ti was voted something like the best speaker ever.

About the midrange liveliness, should this not be blamed on the 108H too and not only the 104H?
In any way, I have the crossovers set up as the number two reviewer and I find the midrange full of life. It doesnt matter if it's a violin, Whitney Houston or Angus Young's guitar, it's almost like You can reach out and touch them...

B.R: Jakob

[MJC]

I reckon perhaps not. By that time I think people were really concerned about peer pressure and rag reviews so they tended to gravitate towards the "loudspeaker of the week". I knew a few folks in JBL Marketing quite well at that time and they were having a hard time of it.
Its too bad that the average person looking to buy speakers can't think for themselves. I bought the L212 in '79 and first heard the 250 in '87. I never saw either brochures until I saw them online in this millenium. And never read a review on either. But I knew from the moments I heard both of these speakers they were better than most, and still are, despite 'improvements' in speaker technology.
And I suspect that neither one was a very big seller, in part, because of their fairly high price tags. Most people I know NOW don't want to spend that much for 5 channels, much less back then for only 2 channels. And today some people still make no sense in their purchases; spend a large sum on a large screen tv and then buy a htib crap speaker/receiver system. They're missing half the fun!

[4313B]

About the midrange liveliness, should this not be blamed on the 108H too and not only the 104H?I don't blame anything on either one of them. They're both just fine as they are.

But I knew from the moments I heard both of these speakers they were better than most, and still are, despite 'improvements' in speaker technology.Yeah, I think you have some pretty nice components and if you ever feel you need to play around you should be able to do quite a bit with crossover mods/changes.
I suspect that neither one was a very big seller, in part, because of their fairly high price tags.There seems to be two types of people. One type simply won't spend so much money on something like an L212 or 250Ti. The other type simply won't spend so little money on something like an L212 or 250Ti. :p Hopefully the K2-S9800 is sufficiently overpriced that it will sell reasonably well to the second type. ;)

[Titanium Dome]

Well, JGH did have some nice things to say about the Titanium drivers, so I can't be too mad at him.

:flamed: (gently please)

He did of course come off sounding like somewhat of a prig then, but 17 years later, he still found a lot of good things to say about Titanium, and he clearly liked another JBL product.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/31/

I've had three chances to purchase 250Ti pairs and passed on all of them, even at absurdly low prices. I'm not sure why. I liked them, maybe even loved them, but didn't get that blind passion that usually drives a purchase for me. Perhaps it was the set up, the amps, the source material, the environment. I just wasn't going to load the monsters up and take them home, endure the (at the time) WAF :die: , only to find out I couldn't really get my fix from them.

I'm still tempted from time to time to get a pair, but with my current set up, I have to say I'd be lowering my expectations for nostalgia's sake. My L100s, SVA1800s, L5s, and L7s get to stay for nostalgia's sake because they've been in the family a long time, and when they were puchased, the blind passion and desire were there.

I think my next fix will be quite costly. Maybe even that "sufficiently overpriced" speaker Giskard mentions or the Revel Ultima Salons. :slink:

[MJC]

:p Hopefully the K2-S9800 is sufficiently overpriced that it will sell reasonably well to the second type. ;)
I have to draw the line somewhere, unfortunately.
Paying $1500 for the L212 3 piece system in '79 is one thing, but over $12K for just ONE K2-S9800 today is quite a bit more than inflation of the last quarter century. Even if the K2 is miles of improvement over the rest.

Of coarse, I could sell my house for big bucks, then move to the Elko area, buy a place for cash and have money left over for a couple of K2s.:)
The problem with that is I don't think there is a whole lot of work in Elko.:eek:

[GordonW]

Well, JGH did have some nice things to say about the Titanium drivers, so I can't be too mad at him.

:

Yep, and also... I mean, SEVERAL people on THIS VERY BOARD have mentioned the relative lack of midbass/midrange "whack"/attack of the 250Ti, compared to say, the 4343 or 4435. Why would we fault Holt for mentioning the same reservations, in effect? Really, now... he can't really be faulted for wanting BETTER midrange dynamics, can he??

And I will say this- despite everything, at least he DID give the speaker a relatively fair chance. Most hi-fi mags would have simply turned up their noses at a so-called "Junk But Loud" speaker, in that era...

Regards,
Gordon.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Gordon,

The low order filters are the possible cause here, it all sorts if lobes in the vertical effecting the reverberant field.

ie they could be room critical for best overall balance

[jblnut]

I've posted quite a bit about my experiences with the L250's since I bought them a few years ago. I'm working on getting them upgraded to (or past) 250Ti specs which means right now they have 104h mids just like the 250Ti. The upgraded crossovers and 044Ti's will come later this year I hope...

Basically, I can see where he is coming from in this review. In light of Vandersteen's or Thiels (both of which I've heard, though not recently) or even something like an XPL, the 250Ti doesn't "grab" you and make you say "wow that's the best speaker I've ever heard". There's something about the crossover between the upper and lower mids that doesn't exactly work perfectly with every sound source. The sound is just not as distinct or "real" as I've heard with other speakers. This particular area is where something like a 4425 (or other horn-loaded speakers with a single mid-tweeter compression driver) would shine. However, all other aspects of the 250 are without fault. The highs shine and sparkle with what seems like endless nuances (even with my older 044 tweeters) and the bass - wow. Feed it enough (transistor) power and you will heard and *feel* things you never knew existed on your favorite recordings.

I like them more with each passing year and will never part with them. Like any and all speakers, they are a compromise. For me, I can accept their unique midrange characteristics in exchange for all the other things they do exceptionally well. I sat down with my wife they other day when the kids were out and we blasted some vinyl. Van Halen has never sounded good to me on CD - something about trying to digitize the complex harmonics of a distorted guitar. But it sounded *sweet* and we just kept turning it up till feedback was imminent (remember turntable feedback :-).

I'm a lucky guy to have a wife who not only can deal with huge speakers in the house, but actually loves them and can't get her music loud enough. I feel for the guys I see on ebay all the time ... "wife says the speakers have to go...we're getting a Bose satellite system..."

Luckily there's none of those guys here :cool: .....



jblnut

[Mr. Widget]

Perhaps it was more so perception of the dealers.

I recall the brochures etc were great but not many dealers stocked JBL out here and they were very expensive.

I was missing from the audio scene when the 250Tis came out. I was in residence at the Betty Ford Audiophiliosis ward and then spent several years in rehab. Obviously it wasn't a successful treatment. I kept listening to the dead acoustics of my padded room and thought about large infinite baffle... I digress.

When the L250s came out, here in Northern California the higher end audio venues were just starting to drop their JBL franchises in preference to the more exotic fare, but the dealers that did still carry them would say things like, "I know it is a JBL but give it a listen... it is really good." I did listen and thought they were pretty good, but I too had moved on to Dynaudio DIY. I guess the slide away from JBL continued making it very difficult for the 250Ti to be successful here. It certainly was more successful in Germany where it was the exotic brand.

Widget

[Oldmics]

Guess I fixed one sometime ago.Found the schematic while cleaning out old files.

[stevem]

Thanks for the pdf. It looks like JBL mounted the port tube directly behind the woofer. I thought that this was a no-no. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[4313B]

It's fine, there's plenty of clearance.

[Earl K]

Hmmmmmm,

Gee, I was hoping to hear more testimonials/rebuttals from past and present users of the 250ti.

- "Boston Bland" to describe the 250s' midrange qualities doesn't stirup any comments ?

regards <> Earl K :spin:

[Robh3606]

"Gee, I was hoping to hear more testimonials/rebuttals from past and present users of the 250ti.

- "Boston Bland" to describe the 250s' midrange qualities doesn't stirup any comments ?"

Earl you trouble maker :die: you read my mind. I was thinking the same thing. All the JBL's I have ever owned or built, even my own HT set-up which is unique in the sense that JBL never did the driver combo, all have that clarity and definition. Bland is just not in the mix. That review really surprised me I just can't see JBL throwing out one of their best qualities to please anyone. I guess marketing can cary a big stick but:confused:

Rob:)

[4313B]

Gee, I was hoping to hear more testimonials/rebuttals from past and present users of the 250ti.

- "Boston Bland" to describe the 250s' midrange qualities doesn't stirup any comments ?

regards <> Earl K :spin:What? And argue with the ignorant? Hardly... I learned a long time ago that it's pointless to argue with reviewers.

The 250Ti is excellent as designed. There is nothing wrong with the midrange. The system is remarkably well behaved and well balanced. The bigger the room the better, it's a large loudspeaker and isn't intended for near field listening.


Bland is just not in the mix. That review really surprised me I just can't see JBL throwing out one of their best qualities to please anyone.There is nothing bland about the 250Ti. If the review surprised you then you are perhaps giving due where due doesn't belong. His lacking isn't your problem.

[Robh3606]

Hello Giskard

"There is nothing bland about the 250Ti. If the review surprised you then you are perhaps giving due where due doesn't belong. His lacking isn't your problem."

You know when you right your right. If you want to know go listen for yourself. But to be honest I was expecting more Ah!! *&ll S*&^

Rob:D

[stevem]

It's fine, there's plenty of clearance.
Hi, Giskard, I hope you had a great holiday!

Do you mean that if you have enough room between the end of the port tube and the rear of the woofer, then it is ok to put the port directly behind the driver? If so, how much clearance would you think is needed? I always thought that the tube had to be some distance above or below the driver, or at least have an elbow bend in it.

By the way I was looking at the Project May Blog, and you guys are really doing a great job. I wish MY crossovers looked like that!:p

[Jakob]

I guess You shouldn't listen too much to what a single guy thinks about anything. All of us members on this forum probably haven't got the same taste in food, politics and so on. Take your favourite record and give the speaker a fair chance (listening room and electronics). I did, and fell in love, but maybe You will not. I could take forever and explain what I think is so great about this speaker, (the design, the 6dB slopes a.s.o...) but except the obvious, it's meaningless since we all have our own preferences. You listen, and You decide!


B.R: Jakob

[jblnut]

The 250Ti is excellent as designed. There is nothing wrong with the midrange. The system is remarkably well behaved and well balanced. The bigger the room the better, it's a large loudspeaker and isn't intended for near field listening.


You hit the nail on the head and I should have been more specific when I talked about my setup. My comments about the midrange need to be taken into context - my listening room is sharing space with a piano so I'm only about 8-10' fron the 250's on the couch. It's definitely a little close and the sound improves dramatically when I move back to the piano bench. The guy who sold them to me said the same (need a big room) and that was one his main factors in the sale. He just didn't have a large enough space to hear them properly.

I will also mention that most (80%) of the time we listen to the 250's from other rooms as we're doing things around the house. They fill up the house with sound remarkably well and sometimes it sounds as if there's a band in the living room instead of a stereo. People have told me that when they come over and it always makes me smile...

To sum up - the 250's are not a near field monitor and they need room to really sound their best.

jblnut

[dieterj]

I can only speak about my 250Ti Jubilee, the latest Version with charged coupling Network.
For me, this Speakers are very neutral sounding, without a forward midrange characteristic.
I've never missed something in the Midrange. The limited Factor for me is always the Record not the Speaker.
I can always hear every Difference with any kind of Music with Voices or Instruments in the Midrange.
I personally mean, the 250Ti is very sensitiv about the Source and special the Amp.
And yes you need more Room, also Space from the Wall for this Speaker.
:)

[Ken Andrew]

Stupid me, I actually thought bland mid-range was a design intention of JBL. In the 1970-80s, the cheaper boxes in the JBL domestic range suffered from unbalanced sound. ie as the ear moved up the box, the contribution of each individual driver could be heard. When you got a LP mixed on JBL monitors, it hit the sweet spot of the driver exactly. This made LPs sound like you were in the studio. Consequently I purchased JBL 4315 (4-way) studio monitors for their great dynamics. On any other music except pop, it is a little tiresome and fatiguing with terrible imaging.

I then purchased L250s for imaging, smoothness, and transparancy. They certainly have it. There is no audible point or a sweet spot for each driver where its individual efficiency peaks. I cannot pick the transitions between mid-range drivers. This makes the L250 more suitable for music from original instruments like voice, classical, and jazz. Now that JBL is less dominant in studio mastering, there is a higher probability that a CD fresh from the shop will sound better on the L250 than the 4315.

The L250Ti which I have heard several times are even better sounding ! Buy them if you get a chance.

[dieterj]

Frequency Response Curve from Audio Magazine Germany :

[Titanium Dome]

Well, JGH did have some nice things to say about the Titanium drivers, so I can't be too mad at him.

:flamed: (gently please)

He did of course come off sounding like somewhat of a prig then, but 17 years later, he still found a lot of good things to say about Titanium, and he clearly liked another JBL product.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/31/

I've had three chances to purchase 250Ti pairs and passed on all of them, even at absurdly low prices. I'm not sure why. I liked them, maybe even loved them, but didn't get that blind passion that usually drives a purchase for me. Perhaps it was the set up, the amps, the source material, the environment. I just wasn't going to load the monsters up and take them home, endure the (at the time) WAF :die: , only to find out I couldn't really get my fix from them.

I'm still tempted from time to time to get a pair, but with my current set up, I have to say I'd be lowering my expectations for nostalgia's sake. My L100s, SVA1800s, L5s, and L7s get to stay for nostalgia's sake because they've been in the family a long time, and when they were puchased, the blind passion and desire were there.

I think my next fix will be quite costly. Maybe even that "sufficiently overpriced" speaker Giskard mentions or the Revel Ultima Salons. :slink:

Okay, I'm almost finished with my refurb of the L250s I picked up a while back. The cabs have been rehabbed; the drivers removed, cleaned, repaired, tested, (except those damn, dented aluminum dust domes on the LE5-11s--anybody got a couple?), recentered where necessary; crossovers cleaned (crap all over one of them, mouse maybe?), returned to stock values, frayed wires replaced...

I dropped the drivers back in to test eveything out before final assembly in a week or two, and I've gotta say I was pretty much full of it when I wrote some of the above quoted post. I'd have to say this is the most attention I've paid to the details of bringing a speaker back to life thanks to so much info here--though searching/sifting through it was a smelly bitch.

Anyway, on a test run with Electric Lady Land, HFMOG! I take back all my lukewarm BS about L250s and 250Tis.

And despite his very nice comments about my most beloved Performance Series, I'll have to say that 17 years ago JGH was a stinky tw*t in reviewing the 250Ti. My apologies to to any and all 250 owners who might have felt slighted by my "nostalgia" comments.

[JuniorJBL]

Anyway, on a test run with Electric Lady Land, HFMOG! I take back all my lukewarm BS about L250s and 250Tis.


They are a MUST hear :applaud:

I do love mine!

[Michael Smith]

I was lucky enough to be around selling JBL when the original L250 came out and the level of excitement that it caused was unbelievable.
In our shop at that time we had Infinity big bangers, Quad, EV Patricians, Klipsch and an assortment of Tannoy 3808s etc, so we pretty much had it covered.
We all fell in love with the L250 and we sold quite a few for a backwater store.
Then the 250ti came along and our love affair blossomed; we sold plenty of those, they were the days when people actually listened to and enjoyed music, then I suppose the flavour of month loudspeaker took over and the "Audio Press" wrote so much bullshit that the poor old consumer got very very confused and rightly so.
The "Audio Press" down here were sluts and good reviews were largely dependant upon the $$$$$ advertising spent with their publications.
The 250ti remains to my mind the best domestic mid-priced speaker they ever made and are ever likely to make!
The 250ti and B460 combo was a knock out, all you needed was very good amplification, but that's another matter.
When I sit and read the prices you guys pay for these I am bloody well dumbfounded.
As for marketing them we said bring any music you like as JBL was getting a bashing from the press, JBL 'Junk but loud". As we found out, getting people to sit and listen without any preconcieved ideas was bloody difficult, but not impossible.
As for my heading I thought J.Gordon Holt was a wanker in the 80s' and my opinion hasn't changed; must be difficult to audition loudspeakers with your head up your arse. In his case I bet he still hasn't found the front to back depth that has been eluding him for all these years.
Michael

[JuniorJBL]

For a 25 year old speaker these still hold their own even now!
Yes I know there are more speakers out there but the reason we are all here is because all of the old JBL's are this way (most of them anyways).

I am guessing that the 1980's retail price of $3500.00 would be about $15,000
in todays dollar and I would also say that my 250's still hold their own aginst my B&W signature 800's. Some ways they are better and some not quite as good.
IMO:applaud:

[jblnut]

Congrats on getting the 250's running Mr. Dome ! They are truly one of the great American loudspeakers of all time, especially now in the used market.


And if you love them now...you wouldn't even believe what an xover upgrade can do for them.

Calling Giskard....there's probably a market for your amazing xovers now that folks are re-discovering this loudspeaker. I'll be your reference customer :) .

jblnut

[JuniorJBL]

you wouldn't even believe what an xover upgrade can do for them.


jblnut


Did you build you crossovers? or did Giskard build them for you?
I would like to do this to mine but I still need 044Ti's.
I have a pair of 035Tia's but I do not want to route out my cabs for them to fit.
Shane

[jblnut]

These were Giskard's creation - I lack the necessary skills to pull of something of that magnitude.

jblnut



Did you build you crossovers? or did Giskard build them for you?
I would like to do this to mine but I still need 044Ti's.
I have a pair of 035Tia's but I do not want to route out my cabs for them to fit.
Shane

[4313B]

Calling Giskard....there's probably a market for your amazing xovers now that folks are re-discovering this loudspeaker.I doubt that.

I don't imagine I would do another pair for less than $1,000. I'd have to add up the parts to be sure.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I must be seeing things or what!:bouncy:

[Titanium Dome]

I doubt that.

I don't imagine I would do another pair for less than $1,000. I'd have to add up the parts to be sure.


I might pay $999, but $1000 seems steep. If it were $700 or so, I'd send the money right now. :yes:

[Mr. Widget]

I might pay $999, but $1000 seems steep. If it were $700 or so, I'd send the money right now. :yes:I hope you are kidding... having just built a pair of much simpler networks, I can vouch for the effort and materials cost!

I haven't looked into those charge coupled networks very closely, but I bet a hand built pair for $1K would still be a bargain.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

I hope you are kidding... having just built a pair of much simpler networks, I can vouch for the effort and materials cost!

I haven't looked into those charge coupled networks very closely, but I bet a hand built pair for $1K would still be a bargain.


Widget

Hey, if he'd build 'em for that, why would I be kidding?

[250Ti only]

Dear Friends, I have owned 250Ti's, bought new, since 1986. I believe it was & still is impossible to reveal the quality, delicacy, soundstaging, mid-bass power, bass detail or the superior dynamics of this speaker without "exceptional' associated equipment. Perhaps Mr. Holt in fact reviewed his existing set up quite accurately, including the cables(fuzz out) and amp(where's the beef?). I was fortunate to own the Quad electrostics (nice clean midrange) at the time I was auditioning the 250Ti's and to have a 'very' reputable dealer, The Sound Room in Vancouver,BC (still going strong under the same 'great' owners) with the highest end transistor & tube equipment, a Goldmund turntable(I bought from them & still own), top cable lines and a variety of other high end speakers to compare with. I felt fortunate to have such a great way to evaluate. Interestingly it was the "aliveness" -clarity and dynamics, that 1st impressed "our" ears. Yes "our"; I brought my wife"great ears" and Mother, a piano & violin teacher, accordian player and party animal, along with me(and my carefully selected records from about 20 years of collecting) to help audition what was for me a very serious purchase musically and pricewise. We decided on the Ti's only after having auditioned everything, in every shop, in the city and some of the best in Seattle. What a workout! The longer we listened the more 'alive' the 250Ti's were compared to everything else & since my objective in listening is to approach as closely as possible the thrill of live sound- I ante'd up & Paul of The Sound Room came out, set them up nicely, enjoyed our finest fare and spirits, and left us with great sound to this day. I have upgraded everything but the Ti's & the Goldmund(better cartridges). The Ti's I have 'modified' to yield "dramatic" improvements, mainly bracing and mass, wiring and soldering, but thankfully left the crossover alone except to move it out of the box and add I cap bypass(a suggestion from a JBL guy who must remain incognito) AND the speaker is even so much more satisfying now that its driven by Spectral/MIT reference gear,cables,cords and power conditioning. These speakers will reveal the difference between the effect of 1 Enacom or 1 Quietline placed in the ac chain on 1 of the MIT pieces, as well as clearly revealing the best polarity for each piece! You now know what these speakers are capable of well set up.(The Enacoms do sound much better but the Quietlines still have their place in my rig.) They are without doubt one of the most fortunate purchases I've ever made. I still listen to the latest greatest speakers from time to time but remain very satisfied-- and I don't even have the best of MIT's current ac cords except on my amp, and I don't have Oracle grade i/c's or cables-which I know will add excellent improvements as I pick them up from time to time to keep 'refreshing' my system. I'm listening to Debussy's La Mer(LSO, Andre Previn conducting, 1986 ,EMI) as I write and these 250Ti's are still thrilling me. May everyone be as fortunate. Happy listening. 250Ti Only.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif

[4313B]

but thankfully left the crossover aloneWhat are you implying?

add I cap bypass (a suggestion from a JBL guy who must remain incognito)Where?

[250Ti only]

Hello Giskard,
By "thankfully leaving the crossover alone" I mean I am very happy not to have attempted to improve on the Ti's frequency response, power response or time alignment without personally having the background and expertise to do so. Rewiring, moving & mounting the Xover out of the box and soldering were all within my capacity from previous experience. Until I found this forum I did not know anyone who I would have trusted to make improvements to the 4 way Xover, which to my ear worked quite nicely,who would also be prepared to do the job. I realize that there are real experts involved in this forum which is what encouraged me to join. I believe there are worthwhile improvements to be made to the crossovers and hopefully, with the guidance of people such as yourself & other helpful, experienced folk on this forum, I will be able to use some of todays best parts & techniques to improve my already very satisfying 250Ti's.

[250Ti only]

Hello again Giskard,
I added the bypass's to the cap to the upper right hand side as you look at the board from the exterior. 250Ti Only.

[Guido]

I don't imagine I would do another pair for less than $1,000. I'd have to add up the parts to be sure.

Having biased my own 250ti networks I must say that this is a damned good price. See Giskards outstanding work on JBL Nuts x-overs :applaud:

[DavidF]

I went back to that issue to re-read that review. Noted that in a review of another large-format 4-way system (ESB7/06, ???) where it reads… “The extreme high end is remarkably open and detailed, but not in a class with that of the JBL 250Ti’s, which still have the finest top I’ve heard from a dynamic system.”



In his Forward in the issue Holt passes along his persistent lament of so many systems lacking “aliveness”, a subjective term that expresses the qualities of live music. In pushing for the best image depth, he mentions the rush of many high-end designers to depress the presence range. This, as he says, is broadly centered at 2kHz. I always found this position of Holt’s interesting. He was, it seems to me, one against many that passed through the review columns of the magazine to resist the tendency to squash the presence range to maximize the image depth. This follows with his comments about the 250Ti, the tendency toward Boston Bland.



Also, he mentions a preferred listening axis in line with the lower mid. Since this driver is up to about 33” inches on the baffle, this puts it at or near ear level by design. I wonder if anyone else has similar experience with this as the better vertical listening position?

David F

[250Ti only]

Hi David,
I pretty much agree with Holt.
I find i'm happy with my 250Ti's sound as long as my ears are at least centered with the lower mid, but I usually listen with my ears between the lower & upper mid drivers. If I slouch too much it negatively affects the sound; but I usually don't mind if slouch is what I want. My speakers are 8 feet apart to center of tweeters, my chair places my ears 15 feet in front from a line drawn across the front baffles at ear height. Speakers are centered from the sidewalls and it's 4 feet from the wall behind them to the front baffle- I'd prefer 5+http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif but have compromised with my sweetie.My living room is 27 x 15 by 8 rising to 10 at the end opposite the speakers.3 tiptoes support the speakers. I'm content with this.

[Zilch]

Quite frankly, I can't consider being locked into a virtual head brace as a pleasurable listening experience.

To each their own, presumably, but it just MAY be possible to tweak oneself to death.

If so, this would comprise misuse of the equipment under the doctrine of limited liability.... :yes:

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yeah but I don't call walking around listening worthy JBL's either.

Besides the last concert (classical) I attended the imaging moved when I moved my head 6 inches so what the heck!

[Mr. Widget]

Besides the last concert (classical) I attended the imaging moved when I moved my head 6 inches so what the heck!Oh geez... here I go again, :offtopic:

I was talking to a fellow forumite about listening to live music (mostly classical) at San Francisco's Davies Symphony Hall and I was complaining about the imaging of that room... he told me where to sit in the room to alleviate the problem. Of course now I have to buy more expensive tickets, but what the hell... it's for the arts and the audio nerd.:applaud:


Widget

[250Ti only]

To each his own:applaud: My listening chair has'nt moved on me in years.:)

[250Ti only]

Poor Holt didn't really have a chance to properly review the 250's.
I just added an Equitech 2Q balanced 'transformer in a box' in front of my system. Truly I had never heard the capabilities of my 250Ti's before. Stunning improvements!! You can still buy an Equitech 1.5Q 'transformer in a box' for only $399!! Compare that to the price of the regular 1.5Q at $~$2300--It's a steal & requires only very basic work to install. It's the most significant result for $400 you have ever seen. I'd like to hear any comments about the 2Q. Cheers.

[gerard]

Hello

First I would like to thank again Giskard for some nice information he send me to be able to make my 250 clone .

I know I am may be far away from the 250ti original but I want to say the following .

Testing my 250 clone with xpl200 xover , in the beginning the bass was not good and I had vibration ( it is my first Diy I may need to brace gain ) but when I change from my mitsubishi 150 W amp to an other 100 W low cost pro amp it was far better but even if the soundstage was very good tehre was a lack of dynamic compare to my beloved 434x .
I bought 2 Mono 40 W tube amps from Audio Mirror Usa and went to bi amp and then the music was clear as light , a lot of dynamic , everything was here ( I am not used to tube amp , but those ones are very good for me and does not sound so sweet as many people says !!! ) ; the Uhf I thought were not as nice as on my 434x because of the 5 khz cut was exceptional . But ... the voice were not perfect on my cd's so , I change my pionner dvd sacd and Try the ps 1 1002 I had and then again it became much better control on voice , the instruments better controlled and bass much better .

Finally I think I have a good system I can improve again . I just feel the 250 needs a very very good source and are more difficult to drive than 434x .
I also feel the 434x are very comfortable when played loud and and 250 does not like it so much ( sorry for bob seger if you have 250 ) .

Gerard .

[JuniorJBL]

I also feel the 434x are very comfortable when played loud and and 250 does not like it so much ( sorry for bob seger if you have 250 ) .

Gerard .

I have found that Many 250's are very good at LOUD. I have had mine at some insane levels (115db no sub) and they still keep on going. The LE14H-1 has tremendous power handling capabilities. The L250 does like lots of power tho!;)

[jblnut]

Hi Gerard,

Let me congratulate you on your efforts to build a pair of 250ti - amazing! I think what you are finding out now is that there is a lot to know and learn about JBL crossovers (especially a 4-way) and how they match up with given drivers. I tried (briefly) a 250TI BQ x-over in my L250's and it really didn't sound "right" so I can imagine that an XPL200 x-over might be a little off as well.

One thing I would add though is that you still don't have enough power to drive these things well. I would recommend a miminum of 250w/channel for the 14" driver.

Mine have no trouble sounding clear and clean at very high volume levels. The 250 is not afraid to play loud :rockon2: .

jblnut


Hello


Finally I think I have a good system I can improve again . I just feel the 250 needs a very very good source and are more difficult to drive than 434x .
I also feel the 434x are very comfortable when played loud and and 250 does not like it so much ( sorry for bob seger if you have 250 ) .

Gerard .

[JuniorJBL]

Hi Gerard,

Let me congratulate you on your efforts to build a pair of 250ti - amazing! I think what you are finding out now is that there is a lot to know and learn about JBL crossovers (especially a 4-way) and how they match up with given drivers. I tried (briefly) a 250TI BQ x-over in my L250's and it really didn't sound "right" so I can imagine that an XPL200 x-over might be a little off as well.
This crossover is a finely tuned piece of equipment. Congrats on your endevor:applaud:


One thing I would add though is that you still don't have enough power to drive these things well. I would recommend a miminum of 250w/channel for the 14" driver.

Mine have no trouble sounding clear and clean at very high volume levels. The 250 is not afraid to play loud :rockon2: .

jblnut Yes I would agree 250w/per is a starting place:D

[4313B]

Way back when I had 250Ti's and 4343B's in the same room the biggest amps I had were the Citation XX, Citation 22's (stereo or bridged mode) and GFA-565's. Both systems could suck up all the power those amps were able to dish out. These were all high current designs not to be confused with other amplifiers rated in the same WPC range.

The NXPL200 network is completely inappropriate for the 250Ti components. The 093Ti and 046Ti used in the XPL series are "very difficult transducers to work with" and any networks associated with them are purpose-built as opposed to generic.

[gerard]

Ok

Concerning The xpl200 crossover ; I think it was a good start including having bi amp possibility for me and cheap instead of having a difficult to find old Xover where I would have to change all caps .

Also I have have no experience with Xover , even having a drawing not to have good Xover to compare and start on , But Giskard I believe you are completely right and I will in the future upgrade components .


About the 434x ad 250 , I drive bi amp with 150 w on bass , I just want to say that playing loud on 434x , you just feel it can go far and far on and I do not feel that with the 250 I have . It is very dynamic etc but I do not feel the power behind !!!!

Regards

Gerard

[mikebake]

Testing my 250 clone with xpl200 xover

"The NXPL200 network is completely inappropriate for the 250Ti components. The 093Ti and 046Ti used in the XPL series are "very difficult transducers to work with" and any networks associated with them are purpose-built as opposed to generic."

Gerard, this means dump the xpl200 crossover and start engineering a proper solution; you'll never "get there" correctly with the XPL200 crossover, and will continue getting dissapointing results.

[4313B]

Well some people really like the 2235H and some people really like the LE14H-1. No real point in arguing about that.

[gerard]

Ok


Step by Step , shall I have a project for 250 Ti BQ Clone Xover ?

Gerard

[JuniorJBL]

Ok


Step by Step , shall I have a project for 250 Ti BQ Clone Xover ?

Gerard

:yes:

[mikebake]

Ok


Step by Step , shall I have a project for 250 Ti BQ Clone Xover ?

Gerard

You've gotten this far, but haven't heard what the system should/can sound like, so YES, complete the project with the proper crossover network. Buy/build/have it built, etc. Do it right, brother!
Don't compromise what you have begun. This assumes that you have the correct drivers in good condition, and have constructed the cabinet properly, and will test the tuning as needed when done, etc.

[gerard]

oK

If the xpl200 crossover is not so bad and the problem is on 093ti why not chaging my le5 to 093 Ti ( don't know if availabe and price ! ) .

Anyway my 250 are so sensitive that changing any components like cd or amp makes a new system .

The cost for buildig a new Xover would be much more !!!!:p

Gerard

[jbloholic]

Hello,just read your thread on 250's and citations.I've owned L150a's for almost 20years (when I was 19).Over time I Made the xovers Bi-ampable and owned 3 citation 22's. 2 amps separate mono for the left and right woofers and 3rd stereo for mids and tweeters.Alot of power right? About 5 years ago I bought a Krell KSA100 MKII. WOW!!! 100wpc of class A doesn't even compare to the 1200watts of the citations.Now an update,still the owner of the L150a's and;L100t's,L100tbq's,4312c's,L250's,L212 system,another KILLER Amp is a Aragon 4004!! IT takes jbl's to another level compared to the HK's:bouncy:

[johnaec]

About 5 years ago I bought a Krell KSA100 MKII. WOW!!! 100wpc of class A doesn't even compare to the 1200watts of the citations.So what are you saying? The way it's worded sounds like you much prefer the Citations - is this the case? Or do you mean the 1200 watts of Citation don't even compare to the Krell class A? http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/scratchchin.gif

John

[JeffW]

Something to stare at. I took this pic while I had the drivers out of my cabinet, wanted to get an opinion if it was the correct x-over for 250ti. Giskard said it was indeed the 250ti x-over.

[10 Watt Street]

I would follow Giskards opinion on that question, best advice I gave all day.