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View Full Version : New JBL 4367's coming!! Bi wire?



Darren69
03-27-2019, 12:30 AM
Dear all,

am very excited to advise that I have purchased some floor stock JBL 4367's in the traditional walnut.

I will place them on 100mm solid timber plinths and I shall gaze upon them lovingly.

I might even play some music through them from time to time.

These replace some Lenehan Audio ML5 Reference, the most gorgeous sounding speakers I have heard but not good for my rock/metal etc. Heard some 4367's a the Melbourne Hi Fi show in 2017 and have never been able to un hear it.

Anyone experimented with bi wiring? I run Parasound JC1 mono's and could bi wire if I wanted to shell out for more cables.

Thoughts? Apologies if a thread exists, I searched prior to posting the new thread.

Daz

pos
03-27-2019, 04:29 AM
Hello Daz

Here is what Bruno Putzeys has to say about this (starting here (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/190434-hypex-ncore-27.html#post2658382)) :


A lot is being said about sense or nonsense of biwiring but what it is about is that loudspeakers are nonlinear. If the woofer draws a distorted current, biwiring can prevent this current from causing distortion in the voltage going to the tweeter. What it takes is an amplifier with output impedance much lower than that of the speaker cable. Running two separate cables between the amp and speaker will make a difference. Since the amplifier feedback senses exactly where the speaker cable is connected, you can just connect two sets at the same point and be certain that the common impedance between the HF/LF current loops is just the amplifier's output impedance.
(...)
Use separate cables, not cables that bunch both runs together. You want to avoid coupling between the runs, not promote it. You'll find that with an amp like Ncore, biwiring sounds almost like biamping. Bad for my business to tell you this, I know...
(...)
Likewise, speaker cables do not couple capacitively, they couple inductively. Keeping them apart is the easiest way to prevent them from undoing the benefit of biwiring. Another method is the one used in cat5 cables: use different pitches of twist.
Of course this is in the context of the hypex nc400, but I guess this could at least partly translate to your amps as they have a pretty high damping factor and two separate speaker terminals that are hopefully kept separated as early as possible inside the amp.

Hope this helps :)

christo
03-27-2019, 06:09 AM
Dear all,

am very excited to advise that I have purchased some floor stock JBL 4367's in the traditional walnut.

I will place them on 100mm solid timber plinths and I shall gaze upon them lovingly.

I might even play some music through them from time to time.

These replace some Lenehan Audio ML5 Reference, the most gorgeous sounding speakers I have heard but not good for my rock/metal etc. Heard some 4367's a the Melbourne Hi Fi show in 2017 and have never been able to un hear it.

Anyone experimented with bi wiring? I run Parasound JC1 mono's and could bi wire if I wanted to shell out for more cables.

Thoughts? Apologies if a thread exists, I searched prior to posting the new thread.

Daz

Hi Daz

I posted this on another thread sometime ago:

I have my K2 S9900s in a tri-amp bi-wire configuration and the improvement in sound is basically zilch. The only reason I did this was that I had the gear on hand as I have a pair of 4344s that I run in a tri-amp configuration with an electronic xover. So if you were thinking of getting an additional amplifier to try bi-wire donít bother the difference in sound is so slight that after 60 seconds you wonít be able to hear it anymore, and it will be a total waste of money.

Darren69
03-27-2019, 02:11 PM
Hello Daz

Here is what Bruno Putzeys has to say about this (starting here (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/190434-hypex-ncore-27.html#post2658382)) :


Of course this is in the context of the hypex nc400, but I guess this could at least partly translate to your amps as they have a pretty high damping factor and two separate speaker terminals that are hopefully kept separated as early as possible inside the amp.

Hope this helps :)

Pos- thanks mate, will give it a read, appreciated.

Darren69
03-27-2019, 04:02 PM
Hi Daz

I posted this on another thread sometime ago:

I have my K2 S9900s in a tri-amp bi-wire configuration and the improvement in sound is basically zilch. The only reason I did this was that I had the gear on hand as I have a pair of 4344s that I run in a tri-amp configuration with an electronic xover. So if you were thinking of getting an additional amplifier to try bi-wire donít bother the difference in sound is so slight that after 60 seconds you wonít be able to hear it anymore, and it will be a total waste of money.

Christo, thank you, hope all is good where you are.

I have heard this more than once, sometimes even from other audio companies. I use Parasound JC1's (mono blocks) that have four speaker posts each so I can simply add another set of speaker cables.

But that's 1k right there. (1000 bucks).

I thought I replied earlier, must have hit the wrong button. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Mr. Widget
03-27-2019, 05:00 PM
You can always stick a pair of lamp cord or other speaker wires in parallel with your original speaker wire and see if that makes a difference. Even if it makes a measurable difference, I doubt it'll be audible.

Now I can't say the same about the psycho-acoustic effects of cash transfer. It tends to be quite audible with a greater positive effect as the cash transfer increases.:D


Widget

JoeNelis
03-27-2019, 06:47 PM
[QUOTE=Darren69;421385]Dear all,

am very excited to advise that I have purchased some floor stock JBL 4367's in the traditional walnut.

I will place them on 100mm solid timber plinths and I shall gaze upon them lovingly.

I might even play some music through them from time to time.

These replace some Lenehan Audio ML5 Reference, the most gorgeous sounding speakers I have heard but not good for my rock/metal etc. Heard some 4367's a the Melbourne Hi Fi show in 2017 and have never been able to un hear it.

Anyone experimented with bi wiring? I run Parasound JC1 mono's and could bi wire if I wanted to shell out for more cables.

Thoughts? Apologies if a thread exists, I searched prior to posting the new thread.



Awesome Daz good move on biting the bullet on the 4367ís look forward to hearing your thoughts on them. Iím quite sure you will love them. Many people are thrilled with them in there systems.

Darren69
03-27-2019, 07:28 PM
You can always stick a pair of lamp cord or other speaker wires in parallel with your original speaker wire and see if that makes a difference. Even if it makes a measurable difference, I doubt it'll be audible.

Now I can't say the same about the psycho-acoustic effects of cash transfer. It tends to be quite audible with a greater positive effect as the cash transfer increases.:D


Widget

Haha!! Isn't that the reason 'they' now make you add egg to cake mix instead of having powdered egg in the cake mix? Tastes much better!!

(meaning- I performed an action, therefore something has now improved). :D

and that doesn't even include the money effect!!

Darren69
03-27-2019, 07:28 PM
[QUOTE=Darren69;421385]Dear all,

am very excited to advise that I have purchased some floor stock JBL 4367's in the traditional walnut.

I will place them on 100mm solid timber plinths and I shall gaze upon them lovingly.

I might even play some music through them from time to time.

These replace some Lenehan Audio ML5 Reference, the most gorgeous sounding speakers I have heard but not good for my rock/metal etc. Heard some 4367's a the Melbourne Hi Fi show in 2017 and have never been able to un hear it.

Anyone experimented with bi wiring? I run Parasound JC1 mono's and could bi wire if I wanted to shell out for more cables.

Thoughts? Apologies if a thread exists, I searched prior to posting the new thread.



Awesome Daz good move on biting the bullet on the 4367ís look forward to hearing your thoughts on them. Iím quite sure you will love them. Many people are thrilled with them in there systems.

Thanks big J, I look forward to reviewing!

Daz

SEAWOLF97
03-28-2019, 09:20 AM
I can simply add another set of speaker cables.

But that's 1k right there. (1000 bucks).


Only $1,000 :dont-know:

we obviously don't shop at the same store. :crying:

ngccglp
03-28-2019, 09:38 AM
Hi Daz

I posted this on another thread sometime ago:

I have my K2 S9900s in a tri-amp bi-wire configuration and the improvement in sound is basically zilch. The only reason I did this was that I had the gear on hand as I have a pair of 4344s that I run in a tri-amp configuration with an electronic xover. So if you were thinking of getting an additional amplifier to try bi-wire donít bother the difference in sound is so slight that after 60 seconds you wonít be able to hear it anymore, and it will be a total waste of money.

My experience with passive biamping my M9500 with the ATC P1/P2 are exactly opposite. Everything becomes clearer, more relaxed, you could follow and hear bass details effortlessly.

Mr. Widget
03-28-2019, 12:03 PM
My experience with passive biamping my M9500 with the ATC P1/P2 are exactly opposite. Everything becomes clearer, more relaxed, you could follow and hear bass details effortlessly.Do you mean passive biamping or bi-wiring? The first will potentially radically affect the sound, the second is up for debate.


BTW: I love the egg analogy!



Widget

more10
03-28-2019, 01:53 PM
If you are not short of money, get a good DSP/FIR filter and biamp. The FIR stuff makes it possible to make a truly phase linear system.

DavidF
03-28-2019, 09:09 PM
Haha!! Isn't that the reason 'they' now make you add egg to cake mix instead of having powdered egg in the cake mix? Tastes much better!!

(meaning- I performed an action, therefore something has now improved). :D

and that doesn't even include the money effect!!

I heard the break-an-egg ploy WAAAY back in marketing 101 in the 70's (jeez, that long ago, now). Moms in the 50's or 60's, forget when, were feeling guilty that they were giving their families the short shrift using the new fangled all-in-the box cake mixes. Less fuss, more time for other stuff, but less satisfaction. Well, why not have them add fresh eggs and adjust the recipe. And wouldn't you know cakes-in-a-box started to sell.

So, yeah, don't give yourself the short shrift!! Speaker makers should ship new product with easy access to the xover so the buyer can "break open" some fresh capacitors or internal wiring.

ngccglp
03-31-2019, 02:10 AM
Do you mean passive biamping or bi-wiring? The first will potentially radically affect the sound, the second is up for debate.


BTW: I love the egg analogy!



Widget

ATCs amps are matched in terms of gain for the purpose of passive biamping. In fact both P1 and P2 have RCA output connections that can be used to daisy chain multiple amps.

Darren69
04-05-2019, 06:32 PM
Brains trust- is the veneer on these imitation or real timber?

kelossus
04-05-2019, 07:00 PM
Its real veneer with a "fully locked" satin finish, you can't see the texture of the grain no matter what angle you view the finish on. Like Sonus Faber's but not 100% gloss.

Basing this on my previous S3900's I owned.

Darren69
04-05-2019, 07:18 PM
Its real veneer with a "fully locked" satin finish, you can't see the texture of the grain no matter what angle you view the finish on. Like Sonus Faber's but not 100% gloss.

Basing this on my previous S3900's I owned.

Thanks Chris, should have just PMD you, in hindsight. 😁

Ian Mackenzie
04-05-2019, 10:26 PM
Itís a case by case thing and if you are a tweaked.

It depends if the original design would benifit from Biamping?

That is a question for the original design engineer.

Unfortunately without technically valid insights changes to the operational mode can make it different but not necessarily better. Like change crossover parts, attempting to Biamp.

My suggestion is listen to them for a while and have an open mind to setting up the system in terms of enclosure including height off the floor location.

An A class system can evolve into an AAA+ system with careful attention to setup which is not a 5 minute exercise.
Set up REW 5 is the next step and get acquainted with that as a tool to further refine the system setup.

The Parasound is a solid amp but it might be worth auditioning other amps to find the sweet spot.

Darren69
04-06-2019, 01:23 AM
Itís a case by case thing and if you are a tweaked.

It depends if the original design would benifit from Biamping?

That is a question for the original design engineer.

Unfortunately without technically valid insights changes to the operational mode can make it different but not necessarily better. Like change crossover parts, attempting to Biamp.

My suggestion is listen to them for a while and have an open mind to setting up the system in terms of enclosure including height off the floor location.

An A class system can evolve into an AAA+ system with careful attention to setup which is not a 5 minute exercise.
Set up REW 5 is the next step and get acquainted with that as a tool to further refine the system setup.

The Parasound is a solid amp but it might be worth auditioning other amps to find the sweet spot.

Ian, thank you and yes, am familiar with pedantic speaker positioning, it can bring huge benefits, think the 'Get Better Sound' book advice on speaker/listening possie/room measurements to the mm.

Amps, nup, am getting off the merry go round after this, haha.

Ian Mackenzie
04-06-2019, 12:26 PM
Cool.

What l was alluding to was a demonstration where a pair of 4333 style were placed on supports the height of milk crates. While some room correction had been applied they were quite impressive in a large room.

Darren69
04-06-2019, 02:34 PM
Cool.

What l was alluding to was a demonstration where a pair of 4333 style were placed on supports the height of milk crates. While some room correction had been applied they were quite impressive in a large room.

Am currently making some timber plinths @ 150mm high to bring the centre of the horn to ear level and we'll just play around with heights, toe in etc from there.