Should I buy a pair of JBL 4343?

[Kai]

New to this forum and new to this subject ...

It must be close to 40 years ago that I listened to a pair of JBL studio monitors, very large ones with two 15' woofers - which effortless and powerful sound left an impression lasting till today. Now I'm in the position to obtain a pair of studio monitors, I've been offered a pair of JBL 4343B at what seems to me a reasonable price (€2000).

Since I never heard these speakers, my first question is concerning the sound. Currently I own a pair of Tannoy D700, so I'm used to horn driven speakers - do I have to expect colorations to some extent? For professional reasons I have to listen to classical music from time to time.
The seller is quite far away from me, I'm in Germany, he in Spain, so I can't have a listen myself.

This leads to the second point, which questions should I ask the seller? He claims, that the speakers are fully original, the surroundings of the bass and midrange drivers are undamaged and that he is the first, original owner. What else is important, what are the general weak points of JBL 4343?

The seller claims that all speakers are AlNiCo-drivers. The serial-no. is 001423 (and 001424, I assume) - were all drivers still AlNiCo then? In this context, I have read somewhere on the net these drivers should / could be re-magnetized - is this true?

A lot of questions, so I save the other ones for a later posthttp://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon7.png ...

Thanks in advance for your help in advance,
Kai

[martin_wu99]

New to this forum and new to this subject ...

It must be close to 40 years ago that I listened to a pair of JBL studio monitors, very large ones with two 15' woofers - which effortless and powerful sound left an impression lasting till today. Now I'm in the position to obtain a pair of studio monitors, I've been offered a pair of JBL 4343B at what seems to me a reasonable price (€2000).

Since I never heard these speakers, my first question is concerning the sound. Currently I own a pair of Tannoy D700, so I'm used to horn driven speakers - do I have to expect colorations to some extent? For professional reasons I have to listen to classical music from time to time.
The seller is quite far away from me, I'm in Germany, he in Spain, so I can't have a listen myself.

This leads to the second point, which questions should I ask the seller? He claims, that the speakers are fully original, the surroundings of the bass and midrange drivers are undamaged and that he is the first, original owner. What else is important, what are the general weak points of JBL 4343?

The seller claims that all speakers are AlNiCo-drivers. The serial-no. is 001423 (and 001424, I assume) - were all drivers still AlNiCo then? In this context, I have read somewhere on the net these drivers should / could be re-magnetized - is this true?

A lot of questions, so I save the other ones for a later posthttp://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon7.png ...

Thanks in advance for your help in advance,
Kai
1.get it for this price
2.4343b is much better than your Tannoy D700 in every aspect
3.ask the seller if the surrond is originl,after so many years the surronds must be broken,what surronds he has replaced?
4.4343b has 2231H and 2121H which are not AlNiCo-drivers,2420 and 2405 are AlNiCo-drivers, re-magnetized need specific equipment and is not necessary

[Kai]

1.get it for this price
2.4343b is much better than your Tannoy D700 in every aspect
3.ask the seller if the surrond is originl,after so many years the surronds must be broken,what surronds he has replaced?
4.4343b has 2231H and 2121H which are not AlNiCo-drivers,2420 and 2405 are AlNiCo-drivers, re-magnetized need specific equipment and is not necessary

Thanks so much for your response. The current owner swears that nothing has been replaced. May be you can confirm / deny this on the pictures?
If the surroundings are original and might be replaced soon: can this be done in original quality? What amount do I have to expect?

Did 4343B never ever had AlNiCo low- and midrange drivers? Possibly this was just a misunderstanding in the way that all what was ever available in AlNiCo is there.

Thanks again.

[johnlcnm]

Kai, I have the 4333B. They have the ferrite 2235, Alnico 2420, and 2405. Should not need a remag. as Martin said. The woofer is what takes a beating from the thump of a solid state amp. That is apparently what demags. the Alnico magnets of the low frequency drivers. From what I have read it only affects the direct DC connected driver.

[martin_wu99]

Thanks so much for your response. The current owner swears that nothing has been replaced. May be you can confirm / deny this on the pictures?
If the surroundings are original and might be replaced soon: can this be done in original quality? What amount do I have to expect?

Did 4343B never ever had AlNiCo low- and midrange drivers? Possibly this was just a misunderstanding in the way that all what was ever available in AlNiCo is there.

Thanks again.
You are wellcome.
Apparently the seller is no so honest,the cones and surrondings are too new to be true :crying:and someone who replaced it with no skills:blink:
Tthere are original JBL kits for cones and surroundings and many other good qulity surroudings for 2231 and 2235.
Yes,4343B never ever had AlNiCo low- and midrange drivers but 4343 had,that is the main distinction between 4343 and 4343B
Pay special attention!

[speakerdave]

I'm not so sure there is a "skills" problem with those woofer cones. Whether original 2231h or 2235 replacement kits, it could be the shadow and highlights in those low res photos making the surrounds and the glue lines on the domes look shaky. Either way, as long as those 10" midbasses are original or authentic recones, for me the deal would be a go at that price. Any problems with the woofers can be remedied.

[RMC]

Hi Kai,

I tend to agree with some of Martin's comments.

Looking carefully at the 10" driver picture shows somethings are wrong. See the space on the right side of driver between foam and cone? This CANNOT be original. Also look at the glue line around the dust cap, certainly not factory made... this appears like a refoam job badly done.

As for the woofers, something doesn't seem right also, but difficult to confirm without a large picture. Get one. The simple passage of time would indicate or guarantee the driver foams had to be replaced.

Glue lines and spaces are often what betrays refoam jobs done. Always check those closely all around.

BTW as far as I know JBL doesn't sell refoam kits, only original recone kits. So not all original drivers here.

In this case the seller insists everything is original, which doesn't appear to be true. What else has he hidden from you or not said the thruth about? That is the issue.

Would I buy these? NO, not at all because the seller isn't straightforward or telling everything and you don't know what other things you'll find later in your living room about these speakers when its too late...

If you still decide to buy, buy cheap because you don't really know the state of what you're purchasing.

Richard

[Kai]

Hi Kai,

I tend to agree with some of Martin's comments.

Looking carefully at the 10" driver picture shows somethings are wrong. See the space on the right side of driver between foam and cone? This CANNOT be original. Also look at the glue line around the dust cap, certainly not factory made... this appears like a refoam job badly done.

As for the woofers, something doesn't seem right also, but difficult to confirm without a large picture. Get one. The simple passage of time would indicate or guarantee the driver foams had to be replaced.

Glue lines and spaces are often what betrays refoam jobs done. Always check those closely all around.

BTW as far as I know JBL doesn't sell refoam kits, only original recone kits. So not all original drivers here.

In this case the seller insists everything is original, which doesn't appear to be true. What else has he hidden from you or not said the thruth about? That is the issue.

Would I buy these? NO, not at all because the seller isn't straightforward or telling everything and you don't know what other things you'll find later in your living room about these speakers when its too late...

If you still decide to buy, buy cheap because you don't really know the state of what you're purchasing.

Richard

Thanks you all for your comments - this is very helpful. I contacted the seller again regarding this issue.
If I'd have to recone the midrange speakers and / or the woofers: I wouldn't do this myself, what kind of investment do I have to calculate to have this made?
Also, what about the other components? I've read in the forum that I should get rid of the active/ passive switch - but should I replace the capacitors in the crossover as well?

Thanks again,
Kai

[Odd]

You are in Germany and should try to contact "Guido" a member here.
Behringer Lautsprecher Service. (https://www.behringer-electric.de/lautsprecher-service/)

[RMC]

HI Kai,

You contacted the seller again but what does he say now?

Assuming original recone kits are still available, which may not necessarily be the case, from the top of my head, not knowing Germany prices, I would think in parts and labour you're in for a good 1K+ Euros for the four cone drivers reconing.

And I haven't touched the other issues you mentioned about crossovers.

Personnaly, I wouldn't pay more than 1K Euros, if they work, for the pair of speakers considering the money you may well have to spend to bring them on par all around, and my previous post. Plus you may find other issues later... Regards,

Richard

[Robh3606]

You need to actually see these speakers in person and audition them. Look for warn/damaged screws on all drivers. You can tell if they have been molested. Look for water damage to the cabinets rusted screws around the crossover panel might not meen anything but definately make sure the cabinets are in good condition.The foamed drivers have had their foam replaced. As long as it was only a refoam and the cones are original it might be just fine. Whoever did them was sloppy. Could just be cosmetic. Recones for 2231's do not exist you would end up with 2235's The 2121's are rare and no recone kits exist unless you get very lucky. With their age and depending upon use you may be looking at changing the 2420 and 2405 diaphrams if they already have not been. If they have been changed you want original JBL parts not aftermarket! Good luck!

Rob:)

[Ian Mackenzie]

New to this forum and new to this subject ...

It must be close to 40 years ago that I listened to a pair of JBL studio monitors, very large ones with two 15' woofers - which effortless and powerful sound left an impression lasting till today. Now I'm in the position to obtain a pair of studio monitors, I've been offered a pair of JBL 4343B at what seems to me a reasonable price (€2000).

Since I never heard these speakers, my first question is concerning the sound. Currently I own a pair of Tannoy D700, so I'm used to horn driven speakers - do I have to expect colorations to some extent? For professional reasons I have to listen to classical music from time to time.
The seller is quite far away from me, I'm in Germany, he in Spain, so I can't have a listen myself.

This leads to the second point, which questions should I ask the seller? He claims, that the speakers are fully original, the surroundings of the bass and midrange drivers are undamaged and that he is the first, original owner. What else is important, what are the general weak points of JBL 4343?

The seller claims that all speakers are AlNiCo-drivers. The serial-no. is 001423 (and 001424, I assume) - were all drivers still AlNiCo then? In this context, I have read somewhere on the net these drivers should / could be re-magnetized - is this true?

A lot of questions, so I save the other ones for a later posthttp://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon7.png ...

Thanks in advance for your help in advance,
Kai

The Tannoys you have are a nice hifi loudspeaker

The differences are the Jbl 4343 is a monitor meaning you will hear recordings warts and all because they are more analytical.

The jbls won’t imagine like the Tannoys but on the plus side they project a reality like few other systems of the era.

Regards classical music �� they are a bit live sounding with the original D16R2420 aluminium diaphragm. Great in jazz.
(The stock 4435 is better on classical music)

With some carefully executed modifications and setting up which you can implement over a period of time they will thrill you on classic music particularly piano.

Treat them as a long term investment.

As to the question of proceeding there are always risks. But with risk there is opportunity.

I would ask for a pic of all drivers front and rear that way you will know if they are the original drivers (Alnico or SFG Ferrite)with the stock factory design or swapped out by a trader on Ebay.

I have 35 year old JBL 2231 Alnico drivers and they are fine. The problem is big turn on thumps.

I would budget for a compression driver and 2405 service (€150 see what diaphragm is installed) and take it from there. The woofers provided they don’t rub are what they are as are the 2121’s. The Lpads might be scratchy but that can be remedied.

Generally speaking a prior owner may not be aware of a compression driver requiring a new diaphragm or cleaning of the voice coil gap because they are used to listening to them over a period of time.

Ask why he is selling them? If the reason sounds legitimate fine.
BTW No original driver has not been reformed or reconed due to age.
Ask him to send a pic with a recent newspaper in the image (fraud)

Options:
You could build pair of 4343 diy clones with later iteration drivers like the 2235H, 2123H, 2425 , 2405H and an improved network for the same or less outlay. But it won’t be the 4343 “look” and the building takes time and is challenging.

Either way you will need to put some work in but the result is worthwhile.

[dn92]

The 2231 have also been refoamed by an amateur.
as Ian is writing there are also nice clones with checked and renewed components. I know two sources in EU, Behringer Electric already mentionned but also Restaur'Audio located in France but shipping in EU. For this latest I've seen with my eyes and listen to some of these clones, as beautiful as new from the box, at the quality of the ones made by KRS.

[Kai]

HI Kai,

You contacted the seller again but what does he say now?

Assuming original recone kits are still available, which may not necessarily be the case, from the top of my head, not knowing Germany prices, I would think in parts and labour you're in for a good 1K+ Euros for the four cone drivers reconing.

And I haven't touched the other issues you mentioned about crossovers.

Personnaly, I wouldn't pay more than 1K Euros, if they work, for the pair of speakers considering the money you may well have to spend to bring them on par all around, and my previous post. Plus you may find other issues later... Regards,

Richard

Thank you all for your comments - very helpful indeed. What Richard suggests is exactly what we now agreed on: I pay €1000 upfront and the second €1000 when the speakers have arrived here and everything is as the seller claims. I guess I have to change the drivers all over anyway. Either they are indeed original, then due to age, and if they are not original, then anyway. As suggested I contacted Behringer for pricing. Upon arrival I dismantle the speakers to check the drivers - is this possible from the front or do I have to unscrew the baffle?
In any case, this looks like a nice project for the awful winter time in our area!

[Kai]

... me again ...

As suggested, I contacted Guido from Behringer Electric, and it does not look good. He says that he only could recone the bass drivers with original parts, all other drivers not with original parts, the midrange not all. Is this common sense? And is this the end of the story or has somebody expierence with 3rd party replacements which work equally well?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Without a better high resolution pic l think the midrange driver might have been reconed because the dust cap glue suggest this is the case. Note the dust cap requires removing and replacing with either the original or a new dust cap when reconed or refoam as the voice coil needs a shim to centre the coil in the gap.

After market 2121 cone kits are available. I have not compared them to a factory recone

What some people to us put the 2123H in which can be acquired off Ebay (they are quite common and a superior transducer)

Some reworking of the network is required but you end up with a better spec system if you also replace the compression driver diaphragm. This is path of the course in the improvements mentioned earlier.

The original networks are specific to the drivers in the 4343, the 4344 and the 4344mk11.

This includes not just the midrange but the compression driver diaphragms. The JBL D16R2420 (aluminium in the 4343,4343b), D16R2425 (titanium 4344) and the Acquplas dusted D26R2425 exhibit different frequency response signatures that require specific voltage drives.

[macaroonie]

The cones look a bit sus to me mainly because of a slight shiny appearance , not only on the cones but also on the surrounds.
Usually cones of this age are very dull looking.
However the OP seems to have a deal with the seller ie !k euro down and 1k later if he is satisfied that all is well.
If everybody plays ball this will work out and we will have a new member to guide through the refurb.

I say go for the deal , lets have a look at the drivers , and it seems he is in touch with Guido so help is on hand.

Good luck Kai.

[RMC]

Hi Kai,

Re: "...to check the drivers - is this possible from the front or do I have to unscrew the baffle?
The cone drivers you can remove from the front. As for the compression driver and tweeter you may very well have to remove the top front panel since there are separate chambers for 10" and 15" drivers, so there seems to be no access to high frequency drivers through a mid or woofer hole for example because of those separate chambers (see 4343b data sheet, enclosure section).

RE: "He says that he only could recone the bass drivers with original parts, all other drivers not with original parts, the midrange not all. Is this common sense? And is this the end of the story or has somebody expierence with 3rd party replacements which work equally well?"

This is the cruel reality of purchasing older speakers (1980 or so)... Original parts aren't available forever. And aftermarket parts quality varies from good to bad and ugly... It will work, the issue is how well? Unfortunately, its not written in the sky which is what, though experienced speaker repair people may know more than others about that.

As for aftermarket parts maintaining same specs and performance as original ones, this remains a big question mark. Welcome to the world of older speaker restoration. Regards,

Richard

[RMC]

RE post # 17

"That all is well" and "I say go for the deal" seems easy to say when you're not the one who has to go through all the work involved AND PAY for it! Regards,

Richard

[RMC]

Hi Kai,

An afterthought, and a possible money saving idea for you. I generally try to think about value for my colleague's money instead of just easily throwing good money at a problem.

If, and only if, the cones on the the woofer and mid are actually original JBL stuff and in good condition, it may be worth it to have these re-surrounded properly only (not reconed $), thereby saving a good amount of cash which you may well need anyway for the high frequency devices as mentioned by another and crossovers... That should be done with driver model specific material instead of simple generic surrounds to increase the chances of driver similar performance afterwards. This idea is based on the following.

D.B. Keele has indicated, in his sixth-order LF alignment paper, "The relative insensitivity of vented-box frequency response and cutoff frequency to changes in the driver's suspension compliance..." (1974, P. 354).

Ten years later, Electro-voice reaffirmed that idea in these terms: "... Thiele's model shows that system performance is relatively insensitive to variations in certain speaker characteristics, e.g. suspension compliance." (E-V, Pro Sound Facts, No. 7, Oct. 1984, P. 1).

What this means in practice is that even if new surrounds aren't perfectly identical, within limits, to original ones in terms of compliance (assuming spider is good), then the chances of noticing a difference or deterioration of sound from original ones would be slim. This may be worth a try.

One fellow here even tried it on JBL 15" woofers with Butyl Rubber surrounds (there's a thread here on this) and he was delighted. He added he could not hear the difference from before and after. Food for thought...

Regards,

Richard

[ivica]

Hi Kai,

An afterthought, and a possible money saving idea for you. I generally try to think about value for my colleague's money instead of just easily throwing good money at a problem.

If, and only if, the cones on the the woofer and mid are actually original JBL stuff and in good condition, it may be worth it to have these re-surrounded properly only (not reconed $), thereby saving a good amount of cash which you may well need anyway for the high frequency devices as mentioned by another and crossovers... That should be done with driver model specific material instead of simple generic surrounds to increase the chances of driver similar performance afterwards. This idea is based on the following.

D.B. Keele has indicated, in his sixth-order LF alignment paper, "The relative insensitivity of vented-box frequency response and cutoff frequency to changes in the driver's suspension compliance..." (1974, P. 354).

Ten years later, Electro-voice reaffirmed that idea in these terms: "... Thiele's model shows that system performance is relatively insensitive to variations in certain speaker characteristics, e.g. suspension compliance." (E-V, Pro Sound Facts, No. 7, Oct. 1984, P. 1).

What this means in practice is that even if new surrounds aren't perfectly identical, within limits, to original ones in terms of compliance (assuming spider is good), then the chances of noticing a difference or deterioration of sound from original ones would be slim. This may be worth a try.

One fellow here even tried it on JBL 15" woofers with Butyl Rubber surrounds (there's a thread here on this) and he was delighted. He added he could not hear the difference from before and after. Food for thought...

Regards,

Richard

Hi Kai,

I think this is good suggestion.
Regards
Ivica

[Ian Mackenzie]

The local Jbl service agent in Germany would be able to confirm that with a sweep using a Woofer Tester or other Test apparatus such as Liberty Audio Suite. Most agents offer the service of new surrounds these days.

[martin_wu99]

... me again ...

As suggested, I contacted Guido from Behringer Electric, and it does not look good. He says that he only could recone the bass drivers with original parts, all other drivers not with original parts, the midrange not all. Is this common sense? And is this the end of the story or has somebody expierence with 3rd party replacements which work equally well?
Hi kai,don't think too much,just ask the seller again to send you hi res. pics of all drivers,the fronts and the backs,then it is easy to judge(this need the seller to dismentle all drivers),this is a rightful claim.
if some drivers are not original,tell the seller directly,and ask him to reduce the price,make sure this is a good deal.if he is not willing to reduce the price,think over if it is still a real bargain.
BTW,except the 2121h,other drivers are not so difffcult to be reconed or replaced:D

[Robh3606]

If, and only if, the cones on the the woofer and mid are actually original JBL stuff and in good condition, it may be worth it to have these re-surrounded properly only (not reconed $), thereby saving a good amount of cash which you may well need anyway for the high frequency devices as mentioned by another and crossovers... That should be done with driver model specific material instead of simple generic surrounds to increase the chances of driver similar performance afterwards.


If they are indeed original cones I wouldn't be to quick to do that. Whoever re-foamed them was way to generous on the glue and if they were recently done it is going to be very hard to cleanly remove the foam without damaging the cones. The 2121 cones are thin and light and if the FS is screwed up it simply won't matter in a sealed enclosure crossed over at 300Hz. If you tear or delaminate the cone your done. Better off just letting them age and re-foam them again down the road.

The 2231/35 all you need to do is verify Fb with a simple impedance sweep to see where it is and again if reasonably close within a Hz or 2 just leave them be. The 2231/35 cones are much heavier but the will peel apart if the glue and foam is fresh.

I recently did re-foams on my 2235 and 2122 drivers in my 4344 clones and you really have to be careful even when the stuff if falling apart as the 2122's are so thin it takes very little to damage the cones. When you re-foam the glue stays on the cone, you can't get it off only the foam comes off.

Rob:)


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?469-Resurround-Step-by-step

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yes they are delicate.

Btw l thought we had a forum member in Spain.(alpina)
Perhaps he can be of assistance given all the help he’s received recently.

[more10]

The most important part is the cabinet. The drivers are approximately worth 1600€ if in good shape. The bass and midrange are rare. I believe a pair of 4343B in good condition are worth 4000€. So a pair of good cabinets are worth at least 2000€, if my calculation is correct.

This is a good deal, if it is for real. You will have to make shure the cabinet is original JBL and not a DIY thing. You will have to make shure the cabinet is nice.

If the cones and voice coils are ok, a good repair shop can replace the foam and the spider. As long as they sound without any bad sounds, they can be refurbished. If not you will have to look for second hand drivers.

It could be a scam. You have to go there to make shure the cabinets exist. Strict pay on delivery!

Mårten

[Kai]

Don't want to be slimy - but thank you so much to all of you! The learning curve was very steep for me the last week.
And as fas as the purchase of these speakers on Tenerife are concerned - this seems to be cancelled. As mentioned, we agreed on half payment upfront and the rest upon arrival of the speakers. I told him that I'd pay as soon as I have pictures of the ready-to-ship pallet plus a written confirmation of the forwarder that they in possession of the consignment. I haven't heard from him since.


However, this does not worry me too much. Now, that I have licked blood, I'm currently in negotiations with a seller in Torino, Italy. Still 15 hours to drive, but at least manageable. He has no idea about the speakers, bought them himself 3 years ago, didn't change anything since, and invited me to come personally. Sounds much better than my first try.


From the pictures I'd guess that the midrange again had been re-foamed/-coned, but I assume this will be the feat of every 4343 one can buy today.
I'll have a telecon with Guido tomorrow, I'm a little worried about the 2121H since I believe this is most important unit in the system and defines the whole character of the speaker.

[ompdiburi]

Just my opinion, to be in Europe 2000€ is a very good price, but it suonds strange to me that the seller accept to receive the second half of the payment after you receive the speakers, be sure that he really have the speakers, ask him a copy of his I.D. and be carefully in general, good luck!
Giuliano

[RMC]

Hi Kai,

RE: Post # 24

RE: "... if they were recently done it is going to be very hard to cleanly remove the foam without damaging the cones.(...) "Better off just letting them age and re-foam them again down the road." Pretty clever idea in my view, just in case. Quite possible refoam done recently in order to sell the boxes... The drawback is that you have to keep looking at the damn sloppy job previously done for a while, unless putting the speaker grille on... Though still better than damaging the cones with too early refoams: "all good things come to those who wait" then...

BTW I was thinking these would be sent to Guido to do that work (he's presumably competent), not to do it yourself. Additionally, since it was mentioned here by the same fellow (who also rightly said HF devices may need some love too) that 2231 recones are no longer available, I assume when Guido said he could only recone the woofers with original parts then he probably had in mind 2235 recones (not 2231). Oups, another bit of "non-originality", but then one does what he can. 2231/2235 T/S not the same but not too far off, compliance quite different but less sensitive or critical to performance, as shown by Keele/EV. EDIT: See also Bullock on P.24.

On the other hand the same fellow told us in another thread (Deeper bass...) that 2235 recones were getting more difficult to find... This not to show any issue here, but rather to illustrate this is getting like the dog chasing its tail for older speaker restoration with original parts! Moreover, It does tend to show the more you wait here the less original parts your likely to find... NOT "all good things come to those who wait" in matters of "original" recones availability though... So a decision has to be made about wait (refoam) and don't wait much (recone woofers).

RE: "When you re-foam the glue stays on the cone, you can't get it off only the foam comes off." I certainly cannot agree with that statement however. I have done it (removing the old glue) on back of cones of my 2214H with Isopropyl Alcool 91% sold at Wallmart (not the usual 70%), as indicated by Simply speakers, and it worked fine, though a monk's job! I guess i'm more courageous or work harder than others then. I didn't want to leave that sticky stuff there and add more on top of it to glue the new foams on the back side of cones, even if it can't really be seen when driver mounted. For two reasons that follow.

First, I would have felt like doing a sloppy job and I like my things proper, as original as I can.

Second, since I cut the dustcaps 90% around just above the old glue line, except where the wires are, to also remove foam rot inside the drivers (another monk's job), I felt the dustcap's new black glue line would already add a little cone mass and I didn't want to add more of that on the back side of the cone where surrounds are glued. Plus I preferred to keep, if possible, the original dustcaps, which I did.

EDIT: On the driver frame where the other end of the surround is glued, with my cleanup I'm down to the black original paint all around, not a drop of old glue nor anything else left, just the black paint with metal under.


Naturally, soaking the cone's edge with 91% alcool is a no go, to avoid defeating its chemistry. So I put alcool on a soft rag and using a finger in the rag went around patiently and slowly MANY times avoiding touching non-glued surfaces, turning the rag with again some alcool, even using cotton swabs with alcool for hard to reach places. Yes, its time consuming but I wouldn't have it any other way (i.e. as original as I can). Proud of job done!

Regards,

Richard

Edit:

Still have another pair of drivers to refoam, this time small woofers I like, if I can find proper surrounds locally. Then, hopefully, refoaming work is over for ever?

I've been trying for a few years now to avoid foam surround drivers like the Ebola disease, running away from them. They don't last long enough for me and way too much work to refoam, when doing it properly...

Among the six pairs of woofers I purchased in the last four years, NONE has foam surrounds. Only rubber or treated cloth surrounds, that's it.

[Triumph Don]

What is the price in US dollars? If both woofers work, they can be re foamed to work, sound, and look fabulous. I have done many over the years-just need very sharp tools [razor blades, exacto knives] good eyes steady hands, and patience. The real tough ones have already been "repaired" with anything from silicone to electric tape. These look to be perfect candidates. Looneytune2001 on eBay has the best kits IMO.

[PoulM]

Please thread very carefully when considering an item selling for less than one third the price in this corner of the World. I concur very much with Guiliano above. Strictly pick up only and even then be very aware of remote locations for that.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Don't want to be slimy - but thank you so much to all of you! The learning curve was very steep for me the last week.
And as fas as the purchase of these speakers on Tenerife are concerned - this seems to be cancelled. As mentioned, we agreed on half payment upfront and the rest upon arrival of the speakers. I told him that I'd pay as soon as I have pictures of the ready-to-ship pallet plus a written confirmation of the forwarder that they in possession of the consignment. I haven't heard from him since.


However, this does not worry me too much. Now, that I have licked blood, I'm currently in negotiations with a seller in Torino, Italy. Still 15 hours to drive, but at least manageable. He has no idea about the speakers, bought them himself 3 years ago, didn't change anything since, and invited me to come personally. Sounds much better than my first try.


From the pictures I'd guess that the midrange again had been re-foamed/-coned, but I assume this will be the feat of every 4343 one can buy today.
I'll have a telecon with Guido tomorrow, I'm a little worried about the 2121H since I believe this is most important unit in the system and defines the whole character of the speaker.



That could more promising but any second hand loudspeaker purchase is a leap of faith.

Guido has a lot of hands on experience and is very professional. If you look at his web site he has numerous examples of JBL restorations and construction.

As Rob (another highly experienced user) mentioned earlier if you are experienced and have a good understanding of re-foam procedure you might tackle it at home. There are specialist after market re foam suppliers who will provide some guidance of the closest reform kit for your 2121. If you are not confident locate a technician to do it. There is nothing simple or easy about the process and once you start the process there is no turning back.

There are also after market re-cone kits for the 2121. Its useful to appreciate that JBL (Northridge) out sourced the cones used in their drivers from loudspeaker component part manufacturers like Hawley in the USA. Every paper cone assembly is made from metal mould where the paper pulp is injected into the mould and later dried. The 2121 had a specific mould and the cone has specific geometry, mass and stiffness ect. Assuming the mould has not been destroyed its sitting on a shelf in the plant where the cones were made.(The situation might have changed with JBL taking over the Selenium factoryhttps://www.prosoundnetwork.com/pro-sound-news-blog/1560 ).

The best case scenario is the after market re-cone kit comes from the same mould. The unknown is does the re-cone kit meet the JBL specifications such as power rating. When it get around to it I will compare the after market kit to the original 2121 which I have access to.

This assumes the driver(s) need repair. Until you have the system in you own environment and have had the drivers evaluated you won't know whats required beyond any obvious problems like crumbling foam surrounds.

Concerning JBL genuine re-cone kits unless JBL have softened up on their policy you cannot buy a re-cone kit as an end user. It must be installed buy a JBL authorised agent/technician. This is for warranty reasons. The re-cone kits are not always as accessible they once were and you might wait 6-10 weeks before the re-cone can be installed.

[RMC]

Hi Kai,

RE: Post # 32

Though some people would like you to believe that speaker restoration (refoam/recone) is only a matter of "experience", its not necessarily the case, far from it. "Experience" appears more like a smoke screen when taken alone...

2 years ago on the web site of a known local Pro shop claiming to be "experienced" in doing nice speaker repairs, they had a picture of a 15" woofer they refoamed, this showed quite similar deficiencies to the 10" driver picture in this thread! Seeing this, I never gave them work. Later they took the picture down...

I was speaking a couple of years ago with an owner of Solen I know since I'm a customer there for 25+ years, regarding who does a nice refoam/recone job because I had a few to do. I mentioned names of known possible places (even authorized JBL and others). Solen did sent numerous speakers outside for repair, to very "experienced" and known shops, because they sell/distribute a LOT of brand name drivers from low to very high-priced items.

Interestingly, he said my shop names with most "experience/expertise" here were the places where the work done for him was the worst quality, that they should know better that, he even added he threw some repaired drivers in the garbage when getting them back, as they couldn't sell them in that condition! Also interesting are the places used for repair.

For refoam/recones, a one-man show shop, guy not even a technician, but rather a guitar player who started by repairing amplified lead guitar/bass guitar cabs, etc. He's conscientious and takes his time to do it right. Refoam turnover time a month! (has other jobs too), but Solen swears his work is top notch...

For electronic repairs, again not one of the major "experienced" shops, but a loner doing this in his home basement shop, he's an electronics technician from airplane avionics repair. He cares and does it right.

Many "experienced" professionnal refoamers/reconers do this by habit, on cruise control, since not rocket science, they go fast (claim 1/2 hr refoam), even rounding corners in order to attack the next jobs waiting. Some videos on the net are revealing. Quite understandable, business has to make money, time is valueable so can't spend too much and refoam work prices are even seen at a flat rate per size. So to be profitable no time to waste, doing it the fastest way. Some don't shim, therefore don't cut the dust cap saving time, when they do cut it many glue a new larger cap to cover their traces (adding mass) and its faster. The frame, cone and/or old surround clean-up is done quickly, sometimes barely, even seen foams glued on front side of cones instead of back side as original since its easier and faster, claiming its the same, then why JBL glued it on back side? That from "experienced" people! Yet, attention to details his important here, since the evil is in the details...

One person here says "I have done many over the years-just need very sharp tools [razor blades, exacto knives] good eyes steady hands, and patience." I certainly agree with the eyes, hands and patience (the latter of which businesses rarely have). As for the list of supplies needed, apart from the refoam kit, that list seems markedly short (shims, alcool, etc.), with all due respect.

My neighbor hired an "experienced" contractor to do a fence, long balcony and a large pool deck. The number of deficiencies on these is high (he had even installed two VERY twisted boards right in the middle of balcony!). Plus elementary mistakes related to ground freezing here in winter (often -20° to -30°C) and thaw (contraction and release, ground moving), which may well damage his pool! An "experienced" contractor living here should do better than that...

Its evident that "experience" isn't THE key to it all. The ASSUMED correlation between years exp. and quality work is very shaky in my book. Experience should rightly bring useful knowledge from having done something before (even by trial/error), but in NO way does it GUARANTEE how well this knowledge will be used nor the quality of work done. Those recurrent "experience" mentions in posts don't really mean much the way they're boasted. Probably not even in the top three or four requirements to get the best job here e.g.: conscientious, meticulous/care, strong desire to help YOU succeed, etc. Once you have such personnal qualities, knowledge from experience will sure help, but if those qualities are not there, then "experience" steers things the cruise control way... Skills can be learned, having the right set of personnal values or the proper mindset is much more difficult to knit.

Hiring someone who's sole or main pretention or asset is experience is a risky investment, more than that is required for great work, as shown above and elsewhere. I have always rejected such candidates, as employees, contractors or project vendors. Simply because it misses the point or hides something else.

So if I were you, I wouldn't give too much weight to this "experience" thing initially, as this can be quite deceptive. First, go for such as above personnal qualities with a set of indirectly related questions to assess the person, make him talk, get his project vision first, etc., if you feel he/she really has what it takes, then consider the experience as a plus. As for the budget question often asked, the bait to make it easier/more profitable for vendor, don't fall into that trap, let HIM put numbers on the table for work you want, then YOU decide if it suits you. Manage the project yourself (budget, work involved, prices quoted, execution time, etc.), business decisions. A budget given up front is fast depleted... Globally, are his interests aligned on yours, the customer? They all claim to be the best, you're job is to cut through the sales pitch... Regards,

Richard

P.S. BTW the best car mechanic I've ever had wasn't the most "experienced" of the dealership, instead he was the most conscientious and cared to do it right time after time, and he did! That's why I kept him.

[grumpy]

Not sure why post #32 was highlighted for reference, but sure, demonstrated proficiency is a big plus.
A 'speakers is speakers' volume shop may not be the best for restorations.

Several persons and businesses have demonstrated quality work and been highlighted in these forums.
Always nice to hear of one nearby (vs shipping and crossing fingers).

[SEAWOLF97]

Though some people would like you to believe that speaker restoration (refoam/recone) is only a matter of "experience", its not necessarily the case, far from it......

Well you covered a lot in that post.

I came to this forum as a FNG abt 12 years ago. Since then have done approx 100 refoams (no recones tho).
Got started as our local "expert shop" rather botched a job on my first JBL's (L26's) . I was unhappy about the sloppy glue all over (owner jokes that they "put the glue on with a firehose") and the wrong dustcap.

Studied the LHF tutorial and was doing so many that on our trip to Asia I stopped at the factory and filled my suitcases with all needed sizes. I have only 1 case where my refoam didn't work out and that was on a driver that I didn't fully check out before starting. It ain't rocket science.

My only trick was starting out on cheap throwaway drivers before graduating to JBL's. And yes, it can take 2 days or so for me to do a pair, but I do it right.

It's a great skill to have in your tools bag, I suggest that you start on something of low value and take your time.

[RMC]

Hi Grumpy and Seawolf,

Great to read your inputs. Two Cali fellows then. Hope its not burning close to you guys, really terrible what I've seen on the news...

To Grumpy:

I agree with your volume shop re restoration. Problem is too many of those these days, refoaming and reconing has become an industry within the industry. High gear production!

RE: "Always nice to hear of one nearby (vs shipping and crossing fingers)." Just so that I get this right does the finger crossing apply to shipping (that scares the hell out of me shipping drivers) or does it apply to one nearby, or to both? One nearby would be nice if the guy is conscientious and cares. There use to be one 15 min. from home (authorized EV and others) but the guy retired years ago, he gave me a handfull of different sizes woofer gaskets free when he closed shop, which I keep well wrapped and use as needed! BTW original 2214H gaskets are cheap, thin cardboard (a shame), never used them they're in a bag somewhere, I used instead nice ones the retiring fellow gave me!

To Seawolf:

Great post for me. My first JBLs bought new were also L26 in late 70s or early 80s can't remember for sure the year way too long ago. Kept them a few years then got tired of their "west coast sound" as it was called back then, sold them, purchased others more in line with the so called "east coast sound" which I still own, came back to the "west's sound" with Vega, dumped these, purchased the JBLs of my avatar which I still have, along with KLH, Polk and Britain's Mission, plus numerous others I built, and counting.

RE: "expert shop" rather botched a job", that's exactly what pisses me off. I agree its not rocket science but lots of details to do a nice job, takes time that many shops don't have or don't want to take, production...

RE: "My only trick was starting out on cheap throwaway drivers before graduating to JBL's (...) I suggest that you start on something of low value and take your time." Perfectly makes sense to me, however I initiated myself the hard way and graduated at the same time on... my 2214H! which are NOT throw away drivers for me. Believe me I was damn careful, took my time and even made myself some "tools", plus had to remove rotten foam inside from back vent to voice coil. Quite an initiation it was. But I learned a lot and did my best all the way. It took me much more than two days working on and off on these. Nice to hear from someone else who takes the time to do it right. Regards,

Richard

[Ian Mackenzie]

Well I don't think de-railing the thread with ones own poor experience on the subject of driver repairs helps the user.

Anyone with any sense knows finding a reliable and qualified trade is as much about the customer determining if the trade has the goods or not?

Just ask for his qualifications and referees?

You you can't do that what do you expect?

[SEAWOLF97]

To Seawolf:
RE: "expert shop" rather botched a job", that's exactly what pisses me off. I agree its not rocket science but lots of details to do a nice job, takes time that many shops don't have or don't want to take, production...

Richard

I brought home way more foam rings than I can ever use and so started selling them on CL. Have a deconstructed driver (Infinity) that I can use for a demo for buyers. I spend a little time with them and have made quite a few friends.

Finding that they can revive their "old friends" who have sat unused for years (and for a reasonable cost) is a revelation for many people. NEVER had any reports back that the person was unable to rescue the speakers.

I stopped shimming long ago and now do it by feel, but I do teach how to shim in case clearances are too tight (or confidence too low). Can claim no special abilities.

Currently have a pair of L19's (4301's ?) waiting for refoam, but that's a foul weather project. I just cant squander great bike riding weather while we have it. ;) (Oregon, where the smoke is starting to clear)


Hi Grumpy and Seawolf,
Great to read your inputs. Two Cali fellows then. Hope its not burning close to you guys, really terrible what I've seen on the news...
Richard

Grew up down there, moved North long ago

[Triumph Don]

Hi Kai,


One person here says "I have done many over the years-just need very sharp tools [razor blades, exacto knives] good eyes steady hands, and patience." I certainly agree with the eyes, hands and patience (the latter of which businesses rarely have). As for the list of supplies needed, apart from the refoam kit, that list seems markedly short (shims, alcool, etc.), with all due respect.

I don't use shims. Play a constant 30hz tone through the woofer moves the cone. Adjust the cone while glue is drying to center the coil. Works every time [well over 100 now]. With very sharp tools I never have a need to use solvents!

[Ian Mackenzie]

That’s one approach but someone new to all this may have no idea what that entails.

On a forum it’s an informal situation and it’s entirely up to a user what they do.

The problem with offering advice is if they ask you for instructions / advice (even if you tell them exactly what to do) they may not have given you complete information on the issue and they may not execute the instructions correctly.

In the situation where you have agreed to offer to the user advice and in instances where it doesn’t work out you are seen to wear the liability.

By referring the user to a JBL authorised Agent the risk to transfered to the Agent. They put a warranty on the work and the user is happy.

As Edgewood has explained numerous times there is a distinction between between a loudspeaker repair shop, a Jbl Authorised Agent and the user attempting to do a repair at home.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I prefer to let people fight their own battles.

Solen are in receipt of post 33.

[cooky1257]

I prefer to let people fight their own battles.

Solen are in receipt of post 33.

OK. Lesson learned.

[RMC]

Seems that "ones own poor experience " has done a better refoam job than some others, even some claiming "experience"...

Checking the comments about the refoam/recone fellow's name I was given, what comes out of it are meticulous, cares and takes the time to explain, not seen a mention of confidence because he's "experienced". Looking at a driver picture I didn't pick-up any flaws, contrary to another shop mentioned earlier.

As for the rest, well it shows how desperate one can be and that the posts touched worthy issues that were missing.

Thinks he's gonna scare me with sending post around? LOL. Simply mining right and left to try to find the slightest thing, as usual. Trying getting vendor to his recue to bolster his case with who knows what story.

He can e-mail the Pope, his buddies or wife, doesn't change anything to the factual reality, and being there.

Same old trick he pulled on Keele on another thread in trying to impress the gallery, where still hasn't shown the original e-mails sent/received, but rather preferred writing what HE wanted pretending to report on what HE claimed Keele might have said. Evident why. Not even quotation marks. Info had already been exposed by E-V 25 years before in Keele's own absence, on older data sheet HE had even posted! To what extent one will go in getting a "scoop"...

BTW, for some others, with regards to the "refoaming shops" discussion held, I still have my notes on that, with the shop names discussed and short assessment, whom I talked to, and even wrote on the back of his business cards I have the references given to me (that I didn't know and keep), plus still have another same day business card noting an offer made to me about purchasing one of two pairs of reconed new JBL 2245H he had (the other he said he kept). Naturally, I have the original invoice of the stuff I purchased on site that day, like all the other invoices from the first day, for all my gear and parts for that matter, even the gear given away free or sent to recycling. May be fun on the way.

He's more worried than anyone else about salvaging his posts and "experience" thing, whatever he pretends. Typical.

Sure he will write again, with same type of post as before, what HE wants to and claims (his own truth) to try to make himself look good. As far as I'm concerned, he can do HIS own ego's battle, as he needs that game to boost credibility...

No time to waste with "friends" like these, more valuable audio/speaker related stuff to do, contrary to him.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Everyone please use the ignore button on RMC Blurting

[Ian Mackenzie]

Okay,

We've heard some opinions.

Here is some product advice offered on the purchase of surround re foams.
This is a Canadian repair outfit.
They also offer an in-house repair service.

Note the re-foam instructions reference to experience of the end user.
https://www.santonaudio.ca/collections/foam-surrounds

Many older high-fidelity speakers have foam outer surrounds that are susceptible to rotting out over time, leaving ninety percent of the speaker in perfect working condition but un-usable because of the damaged surround. There are several factors that affect the life span of a foam surround such as climate, usage, and speaker location relative to sunlight (direct sun rapidly deteriorates foam surrounds).

If you bring your speaker into Santon Audio, we can replace the foam surround, restoring your speaker to almost-new condition for another 8 – 14 years. We also offer D.I.Y. Re foam Kits that you can purchase to complete the repair at home. Re foaming a speaker isn't terribly difficult, but it is time consuming and you only get one shot at it. Unless you have experience working with adhesives, we recommend bringing your speakers in for repair.

Next up a link to someone selling a JBL repair kit because he bought the wrong one!
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-speakers/markham-york-region/12-speaker-repair-kit-x2-new/1357372335?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Another loudspeaker repair business in Canada
https://www.iavscanada.com/speaker-repair-division/

Re-coning
The word reconing is actually a misnomer. I say this because it is actually a complete driver overhaul. You have to remove all the moving parts of a speaker driver and replace each with new parts. This may include replacing the cone, spider, voice coil, lead wires, dust cap and/or gasket. A full recone is usually necessary when really bad things happened and damage has affected the suspension, or the voice coil has started rubbing, the spider or cone is ripped. Original recone parts are often available and, when not, replacement or after-market parts are used.

(Probably in the search of DEEP BASS)

Surround Replacement

Ah yes, the bread and butter of the speaker repair business. First, 99% of all speakers with foam surrounds that are 15+ years old may be due for new surrounds. This isn’t ‘manufacturers’ defects’ it’s just the way things are. Foam surrounds usually have a life expectancy of 8-14 years depending on climate, usage and speaker placement (speakers placed close to windows in direct sunlight). Being near salt water or in a dry or humid climate will also have an effect on the speaker surround life. Often people believe that putting surrounds on speakers is easy and are quick to buy ‘surround kits’ that are – for the most part – generic ‘one kinda size fits all’ replacements. A few dabs of glue, a little time in the garage and Voila! The speaker is as good as new! This simply cannot be further from the truth. Care when replacing the surround is critical, and needs to be done properly to insure proper alignment, positioning, movement and using the right parts so the new surrounds fit exactly. There are those that that feel that with enough glue, ANY surround will work on ANY speaker – ouch! There are still others that will happily cut and trim a 12″ surround foams to fit a 6″ driver. Again, not good. Replacing a surround takes time, patience and skill. Done right speakers look and perform beautifully. Done wrong you will know it during the first song played through them.

Pertinent points:
A few dabs of glue, a little time in the garage and Voila! This simply cannot be further from the truth. Done right speakers look and perform beautifully. Done wrong you will know it during the first song played through them.

A word about our warranty:

We take pride in what we do and it shows. From the moment your speakers are dropped off to when they are picked up they will be treated right. Because we only use the best parts and proper technicians to do the job right we want to insure that you get many more years of enjoyment from your newly repaired speakers which is why we offer a full 3 year parts and labor warranty. This warranty covers all components and parts used for a needed repair. Cool, huh!

Exclusions

Abuse -Refer to Deep Bass thread posts by RMC

Improper use - Refer to Deep Bass thread posts by RMC

Modifications - Refer to Deep Bass thread posts by RMC

Believe it or not there are people out there that feel (after reading internet forums because if it was posted there IT has to be true!) that modifying a factory built component will make a speaker ‘sound better’. Yup, uh huh, you bet. If we repair something and you pull it out and ‘modify’ that repair – sorry Charlie, no warranty for you.


http://www.fabaudio.com
Surround Replacement
This is a repair usually used for hi-fi drivers as they are the most common speakers that use foam material for the outer cone suspension. The foam surround has a usual life expectancy of 8 - 14 years depending on climate, usage and speaker placement. Direct sunlight (ultra violet rays) as well as a very dry or humid climate will speed up the deterioration process. Being near salt water will also have an effect on the speaker surround life. At Fab Audio, we carefully select the surround type to match the original part. Mass and compliance are very important. We pay close attention to these details when restoring a speaker.


That's only a few loudspeaker repair centres in Canada but none of them seem like a business that will knowingly do the wrong thing by you. That and the tone of RMC's posts (in this thread and elsewhere) suggests he's pure Evil and just here to alienate those who come here for assistance.

[Ian Mackenzie]

For the benefit of new members to the JBL 4343 - 4344 - 4345 space l have posted descent images of JBL drivers with original cones, reconed driver, refoamed surrounds of a reconed driver and compression driver diaphragms. I don’t have JBL 2121H here at the moment but will post an image one at a later stage. I will see if l can post impedance curves of the woofers.

The refoamed drivers were done by a business called Speaker Bits. I don’t recall the circumstances as it was a long time ago.

I will ask Edgewound if he wishes to comment on the work and what 43xx buyers should look for before and after purchase.


Image of refoamed 2231A driver with a JBL 2235H recone kit by local loudspeaker repair specialist.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Image of re-coned 2245H. I have several 2245H drivers.

The second 2245H does not have any Jbl markings on the rear of the cone but the glue on the rear of the cone at the surround is identical. There is a glue drip on the edge of the frame. Unfortunately l don’t recall the circumstances as the work was done 7 years ago. (Possibly re foaming)

Perhaps Edgwound can comment

[Ian Mackenzie]

Image of JBL 2122H recone by local JBL Agent

[Ian Mackenzie]

Image of original JBL 2123H driver

[Ian Mackenzie]

Image of JBL D8R2425 diaphragm

This particular diaphragm is acquaplas dusted.
Quality of construction superior to other aftermarket diaphragm posted.
Superb performance in an Alnico 2420 driver.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Image of aftermarket replacement for the D16R2420 (Speaker Exchange)

The dings were due to problems during installation. The guide holes were too big to be of any use. The overall construction is inferior to a JBL diaphragm.

[Robh3606]

A new and improved foam replacement method! Sorry couldn't resist will delete

Rob:)

[ivica]

A new and improved foam replacement method! Sorry couldn't resist will delete

Rob:)
HI Rob,

Seems to me one of the best way to destroy such nice drivrs.
Regards
Ivica

[Ian Mackenzie]

Some D&M posts in the subject of refoaming, reconing and JBL Authorised Service Centres.

It’s all been said before.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?15219-Another-bad-refoam-(L100T)/page3

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6212-Compliance-adhesive-potential-aftermarket-option-for-DIY

[cooky1257]

A new and improved foam replacement method! Sorry couldn't resist will delete

Rob:)
Is that genuine JBL shaving foam?

[martin2395]

Is that genuine JBL shaving foam?

Must be the newest Foamaloy(C) suspension :bouncy:
€2k was a laughable price (as in - very, very low for EU) but both the woofers and mids look bad. I'd smack them right out and replace with 2235H and 2123H anyway. The 2123 doesn't sound obviously bad with the 3143 networks. I'd rather have a pair of good 2123H's than those 2121's and 223x-something with what looks like aftermarket cones.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Below are links to images of the 2121 cone




http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3527-What-do-you-do-when-your-wifey-is-working-the-weekend

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30384-Advice-wanted-2121-Recone-or-Not&p=305196&viewfull=1#post305196

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30384-Advice-wanted-2121-Recone-or-Not&p=305062&viewfull=1#post305062

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?16962-Field-Guide-to-the-JBL-10-inch-Midbass-driver-2121-2122-2123

[RMC]

RE post # 52:

Thanks for that one, had a good laugh (great imagination). Btw the fellow was definitely more conscientious (a nice quality for refoams) on the left one than on right. Sorry and delete? isn't it fun? Relevant on what NOT to do unless scrapping. The other's "reserved space pictures" can't match this fun for sure.

EDIT: In post #30 Don even mentioned "The real tough ones have already been "repaired" with anything from silicone to electric tape." In the ditch, I guess all is fair when the show must go on, or on low value or beaten drivers to try to get some extra notes out of them.Though he hasn't specified in what context these were used. For sure shaving cream won't help much...

[RMC]

RE: the latest "prose" from my most faithful follower requires a reply.

Looking at the show he tried to put on, only confirms the posts hit the right issues, getting him going...

"Everyone please use the ignore button...", please, but not him! LOL and not on his own blurting! Amusing. Volontarily forgets where is own "ignore button" is to take the floor not wanting others see some other side of the coin... But he will keep checking for sure, day in day out!

"We've heard some opinions." Remember, other's are only opinions, HE is the one owning the facts.

Santon Audio? Already know them, am in contact with them. Has he tried them? Or just a CDN Net search name to appear relevant? He may be out of luck because I did try them, Aug. 12, as a matter of fact (or opinion?) enquiring about a specific driver's refoam kits (foam & rubber) on their site, giving them info on driver/foam dimensions. The reply came 4 days later- time to check? (without the numerous numbers not in dispute, e.g. price, tax, shippping, dimensions):

"Hey Richard, So based on your numbers it looks like the xxxx should work ... If you wanted to try a butyl rubber surround, the closest we have is xxxx, so it may be a bit tight?) ... Let me know if you want to move forward, I believe we would have to order the foams in ... we place a parts order roughly once every other week." Underlines reflect uncertainty, had expected a little more. I'll assume they haven't done yet such a woofer, may not really know about fit, should say so? That way, I'd be the "guinea pig" assuming the trial/error/$ risk, plus not in stock/needs to be ordered. Delay? Tried to encourage some Canadians but he seems so uncertain, then there's other places where it looks more promising.

Seems pretty evident his list of abuse, improper use, etc. volontarily omits his large number of these, plus insults, name calling, digressions and the rest. Yep!

RE Fabaudio: "Mass and compliance are very important. We pay close attention to these details when restoring a speaker." I've clearly indicated myself in a previous post here not wanting to add more cone mass than necessary when refoaming. Suddenly mass is quoted has being important! I guess "ones own poor experience" isn't that poor after all, isn't it. Do they actually measure compliance/how? Remains to be seen (e.g. Bullock P.24).

"pure Evil..."? One could only learn that from him, the master, can't get that anywhere else.

"... repair centres in Canada but none of them seem like a business that will knowingly do the wrong thing..." He knows very well that knowingly do it wrong isn't the issue at all, just playing his little smarty game, and probably never used a speaker repair shop in Canada.

He keeps arguing it desperately anyway possible (# 45), and hours later adds "It’s all been said before." naming older threads (# 54), BOTH OF THESE POSTS ON THE SAME DAY!

So, same old noise as usual when finding he painted himself in the corner. Nothing new.

Would have been so easy to admit from the start something was (or even might have been!) missing and case closed. Doesn't want to assume, correct and move on. He prefers to play in the mud... Fine then.

BTW The driver pictures posted seem representative sample in that they show the varying quality levels of work one can expect with repairs: what seen, from real nice to less so (eg 2245 dustcap). Same reality as the driver restoration business generally, even Down Under. Though trying, can't always hit homeruns. Tough.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Richard

Before you get too ahead of your self cool your jets and carefully read this link.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?40531-DEEPER-BASS-D-B-KEELE-E-V-s-STEP-DOWN-MODE&p=416888&viewfull=1#post416888

Thank you for the confirming your understanding

Be polite and shut up if you can’t.

[RMC]

RE Post # 60

Threats and blackmail, are penal offences, even on the Internet. Can also give rise to civil remedy. Site Administrators who permit, tolerate or don't stop such practice may also incur liability. One should always think twice before making or getting into this...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Really. That's going to get you a long way around here buster.

BTW Craig from Solen wrote back concerning your waffling rant over the irrelevance of experience.(see quote below)

Talking about or retelling a conversation over 15 years ago or a 25+ year old paper by an academic doesn’t hold much weight around here. The thing to remember is next time when you feel so down and underwhelmed about what or who to sway your response with think of something current!. Go outside, breathe and be present. On that point it appears your only experience/exposure/understanding with JBL is to post regurgitating text references you have read on this or other audio forums or old AES papers, condescending emoticons, and quoting people like D.B Keele endlessly. Which by my interpretation means your understanding of JBL ends with an online bass reflex simulator program and uneducated guesses. >Go spend a month reading the JBL Library and stop giving people the shits. You might then be better placed to enter forum discussions and make a positive contribution.

Quote (with permission from Solen)

“Dear Sir,

Thank you for putting this to our attention.

The story this guy is talking about took place more then 15 years ago with the older owner who past way 5 years ago.

Most of it is right however the supposed "basement musician reconning specialist” is actually a well know Montreal speaker and amplifier repair shop, who does a very good job of reconning and reforming speakers with original parts on request.

https://lmoel.wordpress.com/category/coordonnees/

He as surpassed quality of work from other well know authorized repair shops in the Montreal and Toronto area. Will not name those however…”

I do hope this puts as much a smile on your face as it did mine.

[1audiohack]

Jeez come on guys.

Sadly the Lansing Heritage forum is widely considered to be anywhere from xenophobic to outright hostile, and for good reason. Do they now get to add childish to psychotic to our characteristics as well?

This thread should still be only in its second page.

Barry.

[RMC]

Hi Barry,

I fully agree with you that "This thread should still be only in its second page."

Richard

EDIT: Aug. 23rd, 23:55

Since I've fully agreed with you that thread should still be only in its second page, logically I will abstain for the time being adding more pages to it of documents showing date of discussion a couple of years ago, in absence of a Craig, as this would likely get the issue going again.

As for "however the supposed "basement musician reconning specialist”, must say that somewhat degrading description of this mostly self-made man isn't in my posts, instead (#33) "For refoam/recones, a one-man show shop,", hence the "is actually a well know Montreal speaker and amplifier repair shop," Having read a couple of years ago an interview re his story, day after reference, its fascinating (e.g. care for his $ guitars!!)

That his reputation of the nicest quality work includes "and Toronto area" is something to be proud of for a self-made person.

[SEAWOLF97]

Jeez come on guys.

Sadly the Lansing Heritage forum is widely considered to be anywhere from xenophobic to outright hostile, and for good reason. Do they now get to add childish to psychotic to our characteristics as well?

This thread should still be only in its second page.

Barry.

+1 ... boy do I agree with you Barry , childish talk of "evil" , aren't we adults ? How does this look to guests/newbys ? Living up to our LANSING HIGH SCHOOL rep again. :confused:

this is a hobby forum, no "life or death" issues here. I alerted the mods this AM, but .....:dont-know:

[cooky1257]

+1 ... boy do I agree with you Barry , childish talk of "evil" , aren't we adults ? How does this look to guests/newbys ? Living up to our LANSING HIGH SCHOOL rep again. :confused:

this is a hobby forum, no "life or death" issues here. I alerted the mods this AM, but .....:dont-know:

Well the place has definitely taken a turn for the worse though to be fair singling out the 'evil' comment ignores a shed load of personal ad hom garbage that has gone before it. I decided long ago not to engage and to leave the poster in his own echo chamber. It should have been moderated months ago.
Peace
Frank

[Ian Mackenzie]

I certainly didn’t start this particular issue and we are looking at it closely

Statistically the pattern is quite familiar.

Btw the OP has sought advice from me for the past week on the purchase

Go figure

Anyway get a life.

There is nothing to be gained by pickover this without a solution

The question is are you a Nuff Nuff being taken for a ride?

[alpina]

Hi. I have seen this publication recently ... in Spain there is very little or nothing of the 43 series ... although there are some 4315.
I think that ad is false and more with that price ..

[Kai]

I understand that the 4344 is the further development of 4343. However, can somebody tell me something about the sonic differences? Is the 4344 the more desirable product of the 434X-line, also in regard to the spare parts situation?

[Doctor_Electron]

All I can say about the 4343's is that of many, many, many great and not so great loudspeakers I heard since around 1957, the JBL 4343 is the best speakers I have heard when used in a very good room environment and with top notch electronics.

If I had the space available and fiscal wherewithal I would have three completely refurbished JBL 4343's and use them in a system with my Spread Spectrum Technologies Trinaural Processor.

Two LSR-32's in the rear of the space in a Dynaquad configuration, having its own two channel amplifier.

Do it! You will not regret the choice

Regards, D_E

[Doctor_Electron]

You need to actually see these speakers in person and audition them. Look for warn/damaged screws on all drivers. You can tell if they have been molested. Look for water damage to the cabinets rusted screws around the crossover panel might not meen anything but definately make sure the cabinets are in good condition.The foamed drivers have had their foam replaced. As long as it was only a refoam and the cones are original it might be just fine. Whoever did them was sloppy. Could just be cosmetic. Recones for 2231's do not exist you would end up with 2235's The 2121's are rare and no recone kits exist unless you get very lucky. With their age and depending upon use you may be looking at changing the 2420 and 2405 diaphrams if they already have not been. If they have been changed you want original JBL parts not aftermarket! Good luck!

Rob:)
Robh3606 hello, how are you? Good to see you are active again here. -Rich