KM2 [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

Anti K

01-19-2021, 12:30 AM

... was thinking. And reading this forum, got knowldges from members here.

Idea was pairing 4'' dia with M2 lens, 2216 for midbass.
Member Rob nicely proved this conf, 2-way monitor without tweeter nicely works (476+2216). Rob also proved it takes time :)
Inpired by huge fullrange like 4345 plan add a 2269 too.

Hope HiEnd producers sooner or later realize there are people out there who actually want to see as well, what they listen (in stereo). I'm oldschool. 35y back hold the cover of LP while listening, today I'd like to see this cover on TV (this is a instrument for visuals, quite nice picture, with some un-understandable things inside as receiver and speakers...).
Shortly, why there is still so few preamps on market with HDMI ARC. Rob found Emotiva.
All my stuff is in my laptop ...
8810488105

Anti K

01-25-2021, 01:23 AM

Drawing MDF details for enclosure.
Does anyone know exact measures of woofers, mm, pls...?

grumpy

01-25-2021, 12:41 PM

sebackman

01-26-2021, 12:41 PM

Except for the impressing front view of those monsters I would stay clear of such combination. There is really no need for a 15" over a 18", even if it looks cool.

I like the K2 S9800/9900 cabinet idea.

2226 cannot really be compared to the 2216Nd woofer. The latter sounds clearly better in the midrange. JBL has made many good woofers and many excellent mid-woofers but 2216 is unique in combining both services in to one driver. -And it took JBL 20 years to get there.

If you do decide to go subwoofer (18” or other) I would clearly recommend 2206 or 1400PRO that are both very capable mid-woofers at the cost of low VLF output.

IMHO the 2216 does not need any additional VLF driver or a subwoofer even at high listening levels ( add a little PEQ at the bottom in the DSP). Go listen to them if you have not yet had the chance. Many friends have sold their SUB18’s as they do not need them, except for high volume cinema use (LFE).

There are M2 drivers (2430K) with both Yellow and Silver labels (I have had both). Some of the Vertec D2's are not the same impedance. The correct M2 D2's do have a label on the side and are marked in the back with part no #5032754. Are there any difference? That has been debated, but it is likely that JBL labels those production units with the best tolerances M2. I have not had any non M2 D2’s so I can’t compare.

I prefer the 4” drivers to the D2’s and you can use 2450SL or 2451SL with very good results. Not sure about the 2452 as they are thinner and may sport a different phasing plug. 2453 does not work so well in these WG’s but can be helped by introducing a spacer. However, that does not produce the same result as the others. 476 in all forms would also be an excellent choice.

You can use Mg (if you find them) or SL diaphragms in a two way set-up with very good results. Or you can use Be’s (what I do in one system) but then I would recommend adding an UHF driver. I use 045’s on K2 S9900 horns. They are CNC’d into the M2 WG’s as you have drawn.

Regarding XO there are really not any alternatives to DSP. JBL 4367 are passive but to get to that level in a DIY is probably very difficult. Mind that JBL even had to make a different WG to pull it off.

Of all alternatives available I would recommend using a BSS Soundweb unit. They are cheap second hand and extremely flexible. The algorithms used in them are better than most, even if the HW probably is similar to other high quality units. Skip Hypex, amp build in DSP’s and MiniDSP. Not for the HW but for the algorithm implementation. Pricing is reasonable the same and neglectable in the build you seem to be planning.

88163

My 25 cents
//Rob

Anti K

01-27-2021, 01:44 PM

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33565-2216Nd

I’d expect the frame (other than depth) to require something very close to other current JBL 18” drivers. If you -really- need measured values, let me know.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?22679-2269h

Yes, please, if You can measure.

I think too, the frame is close to previous 18'' but if CNC already does the work and then later it does not fit ... :-(
This time I do vice-versa: starting with enclosures, the most expensive and time consuming part.

Anti K

01-27-2021, 02:08 PM

Except for the impressing front view of those monsters I would stay clear of such combination. There is really no need for a 15" over a 18", even if it looks cool.

It not for reason it's cool. It's cool also, sure. A hint: my 'listening room' is 5000 sq.feet...
A facility, We do our work and listen sometimes some backround music.
And often I stay alone in the evenings there and ... make some noice. No wifes, no neighbors.

I prefer the 4” drivers to the D2’s and you can use 2450SL or 2451SL with very good results. Not sure about the 2452 as they are thinner and may sport a different phasing plug. 2453 does not work so well in these WG’s but can be helped by introducing a spacer. However, that does not produce the same result as the others. 476 in all forms would also be an excellent choice.

Agree. Read this forum long time and 4''Be is the target for sure. First choice is of cause 476 but I'm not too optimistic to get them. Next choice - like fellow Ivica recomended that fellow Guido recomended: get Radian 951 :) . Well, I'm like JBL-biased...
Will see, enclosures take time.

Anti K

01-27-2021, 02:33 PM

Sry, not ivica, pos comment it was:

Guido recommends the Radian 950PB driver which is supposed to be better thanks to its 5-slit phasing plug.

One thing is unclear for me: 66000, 67000 have UHF crossed at 20kHz. I'm capable listen somewhere 15-16...

read somewhere that they Marketing and Engineering Depts argued over adding the tweeter. Marketing wanted it for the Japanese market, and Engineering didn't feel it added anything to the system acoustically 62027

Plan is (now)
4''Be / M2 lens.
2216 / closed box ca 2 cubic feet.
2269 / box 7,5-8 cub.feet.
Cross ca 800-900 / 80-90. Active.
The question is closed box for 2216. Did it somebody before? Is there any risk of overheat? As it's well damped: it means it keeps heat as well in the box 'nicely'?

Andy

Anti K

01-27-2021, 02:37 PM

66000 (and 6700 btw)

62027

Paul

pos

01-27-2021, 03:14 PM

Hi Andy,

If you want more SPL another solution is to use two 2216nd per speaker, in a 2.5-way arrangement similar to the 4435 or DD66000:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?37659-Project-M2-DIY-Thread&p=401465&viewfull=1#post401465
This is a modular design, with two boxes. The two grills are the original M2 ones and do fit the waveguide on both sides.

The EQ/filtering is super simple and can be adapted from the M2 settings: you simply have to alter the shelving filter a bit and add a 95Hz 1st order low pass on one woofer and you are done.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?37659-Project-M2-DIY-Thread&p=405011&viewfull=1#post405011
This can even be done with a simple cap in front of the amp, no need for extra DSP power.

Compared to a 2216+2269 it is a more elegant solution, IMHO, and you get to use the 2216nd for its indented purpose.
You get a better phase response out of the box (no more subwoofer crossover), and a chance to trigger room modes from two different locations (per speaker) in the range where the two woofers play together, which is of course a good thing if you want to get an even response at different locations in the room (vertically in the example above, which is often the important plan to consider for home use). This might be the single most important benefit of that design.

You also get +6dB of SPL capability in LF compared to a single 2216. I don't know how this compares to a single 2269 for a given box size and distortion limit (ie not max excursion).
You probably get a lower power compression / thermal distortion (namely dynamic!) with that special "TCR" VC material the 2216 is using.

At this point the weak point in term of SPL might end up being the compression driver on that wide and constant directivity horn.
A 4" Be diaphragm might be a good choice there compared to a SL Ti as it has a higher mass breakpoint frequency, which results in more SPL capabilities above ~1.5kHz : http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=52647&d=1314552764

I don't know how it compares to a D2430K in that regard though: this one has two VC and is meant for serious SPL...

As a side note, if you buy a 4" diaphragm you might want to choose a 16 ohm one, as it will be a better match for most amps out there in terms of noise, distortion, and power.

Robh3606

01-27-2021, 05:33 PM

Regarding XO there are really not any alternatives to DSP. JBL 4367 are passive but to get to that level in a DIY is probably very difficult. Mind that JBL even had to make a different WG to pull it off.

Hello Rob

The M2 waveguide with a 245X/476 is actually very well behaved. A passive network is certainly a possibility providing you want to put the work into it. Agree that DSP is a lot easier and quicker to implement but it is entirely possible. Not sure about a passive with the 2430.

4''Be / M2 lens.
2216 / closed box ca 2 cubic feet.

Hello Anti K

Look real hard at using Be option. All of the Be roll off above 10K. The MG doesn't and the coated Ti don't but the Ti is not as clean 10-20K

2216 in a closed box?? Just add a bit of EQ and they really don't need a sub.

Rob:)

Anti K

01-28-2021, 02:45 AM

IT'S A DISCUSSION, OK. Not argue - for my side.
Saying that because I have respect to all of You senior members here, have read what You know and what You have done...

Look real hard at using Be option. All of the Be roll off above 10K.

DD66000 and DD67000 use 4'Be and they are crossed at 20kHz. Above (!) that comes UHF...? And passively, hell, it's a science!
I plan make it make active and 4'Be cut of with LP filter (or Dirac Live) somewhere 16kHz - where the dia may act not quite well anymore.

Question here is maybe more, like, philosophical? One point of view is to make 'perfect' graph +/- 0,5dB : science. Like You do here, clones and stuff.
I have target to make them to myself - for listening :-)
Knowing, at age 50 I do not listen much above 15kHz (and my son's cats hates these :p ) but I DO ENJOY 'cristals' (you know the sound knocking with fork to glass of champagne);
percussions, brass...
As the Beryllium is lighter than Aluminium and tighter than Titanium - and cannot forgive myselt if I refuse Be...
Question only is: or 476, or 2450/2451 core rebuilt (new back cap with better damper, maybe longer throat with 1,4' hole, have to measure then), or just simpliest way just purchase radian 951

macaroonie

01-28-2021, 03:16 AM

Anti K , something that might help you with construction.

Baltic Birch plywood can be had with pre formed curves. Think of drum shells.

http://www.aitwood.com/StoreFront.Asp?WoodType=POPLAR&CATID=10&Section=HALFCYL&wDesc=Half%20Cylinders%20(180%20degrees)

http://www.aitwood.com/StoreFront.Asp?ItemID=5800&wdesc=Half%20Cylinders%20(180%20degrees)

These folks are in California , I couldnt tell uou if they are doing the forming themselves but since you are in Estonia you may be able to find some supplier in your part of the world.
Good luck with your project.

M

srm51555

01-28-2021, 07:51 AM

Look real hard at using Be option. All of the Be roll off above 10K. The MG doesn't and the coated Ti don't but the Ti is not as clean 10-20K

I never got my 2450sl's with be's to sound right, even though they measured ok. I ended up going with the same route as sebacman with much better results.

Thanks,
Scott

Robh3606

01-28-2021, 11:30 AM

I never got my 2450sl's with be's to sound right, even though they measured ok. I ended up going with the same route as sebacman with much better results

Hello Scott

Did you stick with the SL's?

Between the roll off and the DI changing on the horn the power response can take a hit. What I think is happening is instead of the continuation of the gradual roll off you get an audible step like drop off in the last octave in the room. I had that issue 2435'435Be in my active set-up on PTH1010's. The measurements didn't look bad at all but just didn't sound quite right. Had to redo the compensation networks to get out more last octave of them. Then they were good!

The SL's/Mg's are rising or linear and not falling so they work out quite nice using a passive comp!

Rob:)

srm51555

01-28-2021, 12:25 PM

Did you stick with the SL's?

I did. It's the best sounding combination I tried and ironically the cheapest. After I got it to sound correct, I swapped systems out to workout an older amp. I really appreciate sebacman's threads on his waveguide work. I wanted the be's to sound right but it just didn't happen even as good as it measured

The SL's/Mg's are rising or linear and not falling so they work out quite nice using a passive comp!

Rob:)

Yup, they behave quite nicely. EarlK took some data found in your and sebackman's thread and was nice enough to make a starting point schematic on building a passive crossover using the 2451 with 2450sl's that I'd like to get to some day as well. This may have to wait now after Thomas's post of the dual 2216nd's, since I do have a pair laying around waiting for a project.

sebackman

01-28-2021, 03:09 PM

Dual 2216's would be a very good combination and very loud. Enough LF to kill a small Rhino at 20 feet... :-)

I agree with all above, to go dual 2216 as opposed to a built-in 18". If you want/need the extra power I suggest stay with one 2216 and build 4 stand- alone SUB18 clones (no need for 2269 in this application to save a few $), one on the middle of each wall and XO real low (<60Hz). Harman has posted a SUB evaluation doc, pls see link, that is good reading for everyone contemplating or using subs.
Microsoft Word - whitepaper10.doc (harman.com) (https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf)

Just a few comments. The older WG's are not very similar to the newer (VTX F12, M2 aso) The newer does behave much better upwards. They may look similar to the PTxxxx but the do not measure or sound the same. I have not tested the 4367 WG (it is so wide) but I do think it is available.

I agree with Scott, I never got the two-way to work with Be's even if I always use a BSS DSP. Theoretically I can compensate for the drop in UHF, but it does not sound as relaxed as with the 045's. I bring them in from about 10k as it seems to give a more agreeable beaming pattern. All drivers has their own identical amp channel.

I never got any of the 243x drivers to work on the M2's or VTX's WG's (Be or not). The phasing plug or exit must be different. 2453 does not work right out of the box either. The exit is different and need a spacer between the driver and WG to work. I think I have tried 2452's also in th epast but did not get the same result as the 2450SL/2451. Need to dig in the files if of interest. Most of the 2450SL/2451 driver/dia combinations I do have in the shop.

The subjectively best combination I have tested so far are 2451 cores with felt back-caps and 475Nd diaphragms. I know, I know, the 2451 and 2450SL cores should sound the same, but they don't on the M2. And all the SL diaphragms should also sound similar, but guess what, they don't. Small differences but audible side by side.

I have no idea why the combination 2451 core with 475Nd dia's work so well on the M2 but they measure smoother and sound more "relaxed". Very similar to the Be's actually and especially notable on piano and female voices. And that comes from someone that hate feelings based reviews. My somewhat bombastic motto is always, if it measures right it sounds right.

All these driver/dia combos can be EQ'd with a DSP to measure very well but stil sound slightly different. It may well be that age has killed my hearing or my preference is damaged by my Genelec references :-) . -And I think a fully active M2 setup does sound very good indeed.

I use 2451 SL's on VTX WG's in a two way system, or quite a number of systems as they sound so good and can be made reasonable small compared to M2 based designs, and 2451Be's with 045's in the main system.

I do have two brand new NOS 475Nd dias left and a set of M2 horn on order so who now what is next.

Knowing what I know today I would not have bought Be dias. I have put many additional hours to get the 3-way to work in comparison to the 2-way, even when using a clone of the K2 S9900 UHF setup. I would go SL any day of the week, just as Scott points out, to avoid the extra work with getting 3 drivers to get along with each other.

Enough rant. Sounds like a fun project

Kind regards
//Rob

jmpsmash

01-28-2021, 06:10 PM

I have not tested the 4367 WG (it is so wide) but I do think it is available.

Where to find the 4367 WG?

If available, it will be easy to make a 4367 clone with the 2216ND1 and 2430K also available. There are no plans per se, however, the white paper has a internal diagram and detailed description of the construction. crossover schematic also can be found here.

grumpy

01-28-2021, 07:29 PM

2269H

diameter: 18.25" 464mm measured/confirmed same as 2245 spec
flange depth: 7/16" measured
depth (12.5") from online spec
bolt circle diameter 17 3/8" 441mm from 2245 spec
baffle cutout 16 13/16" 427mm from 2245 spec a pain to measure directly/accurately, but maybe I'll do the circumference and some maths or find a big set of dividers ;)

Edit: baffle cutout spec is fine. 429mm would be generous... a very small chamfer would accommodate the frame/flange radius if needed. Front of flange to rear of driver is indeed 12.5"

Anti K

01-29-2021, 02:39 AM

2269H
My tape measure isn't metric, but if you go 1mm over the exact conversion for clearance, you should be good.

Thanks grumpy for the measures!

What sebacman made, is superior, for sure. There is SO FEW people out there who are able to do something with own arms. To finish things, even the back side of product...
I like the concept: 4'' dia with M2 lens + 15'' low. Because IMHO proper 15 'sings right' below the CD part (I have 4429 at moment and I miss the authority of 15''.)
___________________

My project and 'philosophy' :
Why 'torture' same woofer with so much of octaves; 6-7 octaves simultaneously?
Why not to give lowest octaves to handle for the bigger boy like 2269, to what it's intended to. Cross 60...80Hz and below.

Did You even try to make two things simultaneously - drill a hole to wall with left hand and paint the wall with right hand same time? :-)

If 2216 is right now 'busy' with lowest part of male and suddenly comes in some a synthesized waves at 30hz, and thousands of another el.mgn.waves , simultaneusly...
Logic says, if cut of some part from low end, it 'releses' lot of energy and makes easyer to deal with higher waves.
When I started my first projects when I was 14, remember one rule - leave one woofer ca 3-4 octaves, if You can...

So: my discussion is: (not a argue),
why 2216+2216 is better than 2216+2269 ?

According what I have in mind:

- just want to pay attention, the listening room would be a'bit bigger than usual living room. It's a lounge area of production plant. Picture below.
Red line is planned thick curtains. Green arrows direction of sound (there is a quite damped wall behing the speakers). Orange area would covered with thick carpet.
Room is 4,5m high, 40 metres long...
The lounge (listening area) would be some 8x8 metres, covered with carped in the middle and surrounded with thick curtains.
I thing if I'm sitting in this geen circle, curatin behing me, basically like open air situation...

- With no exceptions I read everybody says, the M2 is good. Very good.
And JBL made a SUB18 too.
Why they made it?

- SUB18 is a box and a 2269. Right? If I take now a pair of M2 and and a pair of SUB18 (pair, because room is big) , like they are, originally, then everything is OK. Right?

But if I take lot of, for example, epoxy glue and connect M2 and sub18 together, the only difference I see : it's impossible to transport these two items separately, never, anymore :-)
So, how does it concern the sound?

Basically, my plan is 'glue' them together, simple as that!
And yes, 4'' dia instead D2.

jmpsmash

01-29-2021, 03:09 AM

You have a very nice room. Very lucky to have such a huge room. But even with huge room, there will be room modes to deal with. And from my experience dealing with a much worse room than yours, you might find the low low frequencies need a different treatment than mid low frequencies.

You might end up finding that the "SUB18" are more suited to some locations in the room in order to deal with room modes, but these locations won't be ideal for mid/high frequencies.

So if you have the option, separate out frequencies below 150Hz and have the "SUB18" handle them. and then place your "M2" in places where it will form a nice stereo image with the mid/highs.

1audiohack

01-29-2021, 10:30 AM

Hillbilly Caliper

8818288183

Barry.

macaroonie

01-29-2021, 10:58 AM

Hey billy bob , what be 17 13/16 ? Is that hogs ? :confused:

Anti K

01-29-2021, 01:05 PM

(no joke)

jmpsmash

01-29-2021, 01:11 PM

Where to find the 4367 WG?

If available, it will be easy to make a 4367 clone with the 2216ND1 and 2430K also available. There are no plans per se, however, the white paper has a internal diagram and detailed description of the construction. crossover schematic also can be found here.

Inquired. They are available.

Looking at the cost. To buy the parts and put together a DIY 4367 clone will cost around $3700 for the electronics alone.

~$1500 for 2216ND1
~$700 for D2430K
~$1000 4367 horn
~$500 crossover

Anti K

01-29-2021, 01:25 PM

Inquired. They are available.

Looking at the cost. To buy the parts and put together a DIY 4367 clone will cost around $3700 for the electronics alone.

~$1500 for 2216ND1
~$700 for D2430K
~$1000 4367 horn
~$500 crossover

Do You suggest me to make 4367 clones?

jmpsmash

01-29-2021, 01:37 PM

Do You suggest me to make 4367 clones?

I don't think anyone has done direct comparison between the sound of the M2 and 4367 waveguide. There are many M2 WG out there, but never seen anybody who has gotten their hand on the 4367 waveguide alone.

However, as my mom says (she owns the 4367), the 4367 WG look way better than the M2 butt hole.

So if that's a factor in decision, that's a possibility.

1audiohack

01-29-2021, 01:40 PM

2269H... 2245 specbaffle cutout 16 13/16" 427mm from 2245 spec a pain to measure directly/accurately, but maybe I'll do the circumference and some maths or find a big set of dividers ;)... Sorry for the brevity on the Hillbilly caliper set. I just grabbed a round thing (paint can) and the squares on the way through the shop on my way to work and took a quick pic. Just thought nearly everybody likely has a pair of framer squaresBarry.

Anti K

01-29-2021, 01:51 PM

grumpy

01-29-2021, 01:51 PM

@hack Haha... thought the same. Square or point to point. I’d have to go into the garage... ��☔️ :D (Apologies for the potentially unreadable emojis... spiderwebs and bats)

that calculator is great! :)

Anti K

01-29-2021, 01:57 PM

I don't think anyone has done direct comparison between the sound of the M2 and 4367 waveguide. There are many M2 WG out there, but never seen anybody who has gotten their hand on the 4367 waveguide alone.

However, as my mom says (she owns the 4367), the 4367 WG look way better than the M2 butt hole.

So if that's a factor in decision, that's a possibility.

Yep, the 4367 WG may 'work' better for me ; as the project isn't so called near-field or reference.
4367 WG is way deeper and wide!

Robh3606

01-29-2021, 02:45 PM

It's all here

https://jblpro.com/en/products/sub18

Rob:)

Anti K

01-29-2021, 04:06 PM

It's all here

https://jblpro.com/en/products/sub18

Rob:)

According to this data don't see why not to add 2269 for low end.
- Data from this JBL site
- Graph 270ltr total -> 225ltr ported 2269 Red / 45ltr sealed 2216 Green

Anti K

01-29-2021, 04:15 PM

2269 has 3x2216 peak ?

Isn't it why it's used in Vertec.

grumpy

01-29-2021, 05:09 PM

1) finished off 2269 dim measures (post edited)... appears most JBL 18"ers will drop into the same hole (front mounted), caveat being cabinet depth requirements.
2) separate/modular enclosures seems like a good idea for reasons already stated.
3) I know at least one person that has augmented their M2s with SUB18s... I believe there was no remorse. :) Necessary? perhaps for some. That's a pretty large space.

Anti K

01-30-2021, 04:18 AM

they are available.
4367 horn

where?

Robh3606

01-30-2021, 08:25 AM

Take a look at this

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-m2-audiolense-digital-crossovers-w-subs.2369/

Rob:)

Mr. Widget

01-30-2021, 10:33 AM

Take a look at this

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-m2-audiolense-digital-crossovers-w-subs.2369/
Interesting. I imagine he has a very good playback system, but geez, I wouldn't want to sit on that interrogation chair and listen to music in that environment.

On the science however, I think he has gone down an interesting rabbit hole. In my experience the importance of time coherence hasn't trumped other playback issues, but once you get everything else right, if you can also correct the time/phase response then go for it.

That said, I wonder if he ever tried rotating the room orientation 90°? In my last two rectangular rooms of roughly similar proportions to his, I have found going with the typical audiophile "deep room" didn't work as well as going with a "wide room".

Widget
.

Mr. Widget

01-30-2021, 10:43 AM

My listening room is basically like small club room.
Difference is, I do not stand (or jump) but just sitting in the first row.
Green rectangle is 'the listening' area (have to separate with curtains) and red line is 'the band'. Same time want to keep the clean look. No cahins and metal and scrached front grilles.
That's why I'm thinking of veneered monsters.
When there is a usual day, the curtains are hidden and the monsters play easy. The Volume-knob would be as well a part of plan...

Started the thread for some advise ... have people experiences with SUB18, how they are implemented with M2. If the M2 does not play all the way down - SUB18 does this part - maybe there is no need such of big enclosure for 2216 then ... etc.Very cool project!

I can't speak to the use of SUB18 with the M2s, but I have used a pair of JBL ASB7118 subs (same driver in a slightly different cabinet and tuning) in an actual barn. They were able to fill the place with powerful and dynamic bottom end. I'm sure the addition of the SUB18s will help support your M2s in your large space.

I agree 100% with your idea of using the heavy curtains to frame out the listening area for more intimate or critical listening. Since the curtains will be invisible to lower frequencies, I think your idea of adding reinforcement here is very valid.

Widget

Anti K

01-30-2021, 02:21 PM

Very cool project!

Thanks Widget!

Anti K

01-30-2021, 02:42 PM

Take a look at this
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-m2-audiolense-digital-crossovers-w-subs.2369/

a pair of JBL ASB7118 subs /.../ in an actual barn /.../ were able to fill the place with powerful and dynamic bottom end.

grumpy gave 18'' measures and Rob and Widget gave me bit more confidence; my 'barn' gets 2269s too.
Widget's hint ensures me that 2269 may easily fit in smaller encl. as well, ASB7118 seems less than 200ltr. Do not want to go lower from 30Hz, will cut off lower anyway.
For healthy reasons :-)

Rob, fellow member 4313 had 476Be in 9800 horns(?) and wrote once - they play so good that has no motivation mess up with 476Mg and M2 WG-s, they just lay on shelf...
Just curious, have You tried 476Be (or Radian 951Be)? There has to be a logic explanation, it's physics! Be is LIGHTER than ALU and TIGHTER than TITANIUM!
Maybe just 2451 core does not fit? Phase plug(s), back cup. Or cups damping or...?

#memberGuido

Anti K

01-30-2021, 03:31 PM

K2 9900 use 476Mg, works up to 15kHz , there 045 takes over
K2 67000 uses 476Be up to 20kHz , 045 starts somewhere far beyond, after 20k...

Is anybody in this forum, who listened both of them?

Because, I think, 67000 is not made just for dumb rich people.
Be is inside just for marketing reasons (!?) , one of the rarest metal, it costs!
Then 67000 had also enormous wide lens-lips from massive polished gold, sounds more like a deal for oil-billionaire.

I know already, I get standard answers the 476 is a completely different anymal, etc.
But, in my best understanding, fans of Jim's heritage, didn't then nobody look inside?

Then, new topic: 476
What is so special in there? Or is it a desecration of holiness to peek inside :-)

Dr.db

01-30-2021, 04:22 PM

I´m not an expert on these specific parts you are asking about, but just some thoughts:

If Im not mistaken the 476 has a copper shorting ring which the 2450/2451 don´t have...

I like your idea of using 18" subs per sides. But if you need the woofer just to play above aprox. 80hz, why use the 2216? Wouldn´t it make more sense to use a dedicated midwoofer? This should have a higher efficiency, less powercompression, a lighter and even better sounding midrange cone.
Maybe the 2216 is that well designed, that it is even better sounding in the midrange allthough it is a mid-low-woofer?
How about the JBL 1400pro, JBL 2217H, JBL 2227, or some high sensitivity 12" ?

Robh3606

01-30-2021, 05:26 PM

K2 9900 use 476Mg, works up to 15kHz , there 045 takes over

If you look at the schematic the 476Mg runs all the way out no low pass. I use them in my passive M2 and they run out past 22k and they are very clean looking on a waterfall. No hint of break-up you would normally see in a typical Ti diaphragm. No tweeter needed and they work great in the M2 waveguide. Unfortunately they are hard to source.

The only Be drivers I have and use are 435Be and 045Be in my "Array clones".

Read the white paper the 476 is highlighted in it.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?24086-K2-s9900

Rob:)

Mr. Widget

01-30-2021, 07:45 PM

Is anybody in this forum, who listened both of them?
I have had both in my home. Actually the DD66000s which use the same HF components as the DD67000 that I later upgraded to DD67000 and I had a pair of the K2-S9900 in my home as a demo for a period of time. I actually prefer the top end of both to that of the M2, but that may be a personal bias. I have listened to many different systems using many different technologies. I have heard many that are good and a few that have really impressed me.

My favorite systems are mostly well designed systems using a 4" compression driver and horn. From JBL I like their systems that use the 476Be and 476Mg, and from Meyer I like their systems that use their own 4" driver with an aluminum diaphragm. Though the TAD 6 1/2" coaxial beryllium cone and dome is pretty darned great too.

Beryllium is not the flavor of the decade or a bunch of marketing hype, it is the best material to use in a conventional driver, whether it is a cone, dome, or compression driver. Its naturally internally dampened and yet it is super stiff and is crazy light (look at it's atomic number). That said, simply putting a Be diaphragm in a JBL or another driver does not make it the best driver. The 476Be and the 476Mg are great drivers. I would take a 476Mg over most other compression drivers. I would take the 476Be or the TAD TD-4003 over the 476Mg, but that is about it.

Widget

Anti K

01-31-2021, 02:21 AM

Read the white paper the 476 is
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?24086-K2-s9900
Rob:)

Thanks, Rob.
The 3D draft is interesting, gives lot hints why 476

And respect to Your work!

Anti K

01-31-2021, 02:25 AM

I have had both in my home /... /DD66000s /... / K2-S9900

Then I have a reason to belive You. Interesting, what You say...

My favorite systems are mostly well designed systems using a 4" compression /... /

Beryllium is /... / naturally internally dampened and yet it is super stiff and is crazy light
(look at it's atomic number).

I would take the 476Be or the TAD TD-4003 over the 476Mg

Exactly!
All I need to hear is nicely gathered together in Your post!

TAD-suggest is a good suggest.
I excuse it to myself as a temporary solution until I find (or able to purchase) 476Be. Just because a worship to Jim's heritage (as Steve's, as Daimler's etc)

Anti K

01-31-2021, 03:12 AM

I like your idea of using 18" subs per sides.
/... /
why use the 2216? Wouldn´t it make more sense to use a dedicated midwoofer /... / 12" ?

For 3 reasons:
1) I can
2) Already have a dedicated 12''. Monitors 4429 have probably one of the best 12'' inside. 4429 is very good. Very, friend just borrowed for reference to mix their new album.
But they does not makes me goosebumps. They do not make me feel that Matt Belsante (not a fan) or Warhaus stand in front of me.
3) 4365, 4367, M2. ALL reviews I have read talk about differences on high section (that's why I prefer 4''CD, and Widget just cement it) but NOBODY talked the low part is somewhat lazy or something. 15'' rules.
And understood; the differential drive is something.

Anti K

01-31-2021, 05:05 AM

I like your idea of using 18" subs per sides

why use the 2216? Wouldn´t it make more sense to use a dedicated midwoofer?

Talking about sound is talking about physics.
Piston moves the air.

Piston area, piston movement:

Two examples.
1) Piston area S , movement length L.
2) 1/2 smaller piston -> so, it has to make twice length movement =2L.
To move same amount of air.

Now comes in a very exciting discipline like physics!
Einstein formula: E = mv2
1/2S piston has to make 2x longer distance in same timewindow (same Hz), it means it has to move itself basically 2 times faster.
Rise 2X speed takes 4x energy!
(3X speed takes energy rise 9X!)

12'' has just 60% of area of 15'' imho
Math is another funny discipline. 2X bigger area has just 1,4X bigger dia (square root of 2)

Same story why most experienced people prefer 4'' Dia to smaller siblings...

Yes, bigger is heavier as well, but in my best undertandigs, Einsteins v2 is a key question comes first...
And secondly - longer 'walk' brings in problems with motors homogenous area of magn.field.

...somehow people who are musicians itself, or sit in studios; at the most sensitive area of human ear there is nothing but 4''CD+15''W . Today. Period.
And physics explain why.

PS: not try make a wise-talk here. It's just the way I'm thinking. The physics way.
PPS: but agree with You Dr.db, reinforcement of big arenas, open air concerts - Vertec stuff - I do not reach there in my head. there are 10'' woofer packed like CD's into additional enclosure, waves are 'kicked out' from narrow slits. This is already beyond my understandings and didn't research it as well...

pos

01-31-2021, 07:06 AM

Period.
Not quite.

Anti K

01-31-2021, 01:26 PM

Not quite.
:)
yes pos, have to agree, there is always a taste-thing (what is too often not even affected from taste itself, but wife, friends, money, nomoney...)

But let imagine for a moment:
A huge stuff-rental company decides advertise himself.
And gives for young studios an unimagible opportunity: With some rules and pre-advertising they pic up between thousands of them just 10 studios, and then these 10 can choose freely (and make some pre-test-listening) some speaker-stuff for $0/0€ for unlimited time.

In the 'menu' are M2, Yamaha-stuff, Genelec etc.
Interesting, what would be the choice(s)?

Dr.db

01-31-2021, 02:35 PM

These are some good arguments you have made.

I have owned the 12" woofer of your 4429, the 1200fe. It is an awesome woofer, for shure. But it is not specific what I had in mind.
The 1200fe as the 2216 both are very well designed woofers. But both are designed to deliver great mids AND bass.
Just imagine the same effort was put into a woofer that was designated to the mids only!

If you want the woofer to produce a decent amount of bass, the q-factor cannot be to low. QTS should be around 0,3... So the magnet strength of the motor cannot be too strong, otherwise you end up with a QTS < 0,2 and the woofer will roll off pretty fast in the bass teritorry.
What Im trying to say, when you want a woofer to deliver decent bass response you have to compromise in the midrange performance.
You cannot use a very strong motor...
You cannot use a light cone...
Im just wondering, if you won´t use the woofer in the bass region anyway, why would you compromise and stuck with a heavier cone, less sensitive driver in the mids?

But maybe the 2216 still sounds better in the midrange than the other high sensitivity woofers, as it was specifically designed for studios. The high sensitivity woofers are puplic adress woofers and probably not as sophisticated for sound quality...

Another example:
I own TAD 1603 15" woofers and JBL E-145 15" woofers.
I use the TADs, because they play great mids and lows. But if I had subwoofers, I would use the JBLs as these sound better in the midrange.

The 1200fe...
A very very good sounding woofer. But it has a relativly low sensitivity. It is more a hifi-woofer in that respect. It won´t be able to keep up with a 18" woofer spl-wise...

Comparing 12" to 15"...
You are correct with your assumptions, no arguments with that!
But if you use a high sensitivity 12" with a 4" voicecoil crossed above 80hz, it will keep up with the 18" sub very well.
Using a 15" woofer would be needed if you where to use double 18" woofers...
With that 80hz crossover or higher, you would reduce cone-movement a lot which further reduces the need for a 15" woofer e.g. more cone area.

Robh3606

01-31-2021, 03:51 PM

In case you have not seen this it's a good reference. Might give some ideas and there is quite a bit of good info that you may find useful.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/drews-clues.htm

Looking at the vintage 4 ways the best part of those systems in my mind were the 10" drivers used. With such a large space you could do a Drew's Clues like system or do a close smaller space system and go with a distributed music system as fill if you ever want to use the entire space and not cook the people up front to reach the guys in the back.

Another example:
I own TAD 1603 15" woofers and JBL E-145 15" woofers.
I use the TADs, because they play great mids and lows. But if I had subwoofers, I would use the JBLs as these sound better in the midrange.

The 2216 is really impressive for it's clarity and dynamics. Especially the clarity. The best woofers I ever owned were my E-145's but they always needed subs. Imagine a driver with the clarity of an E-145 and the reach of 2235's down low. That's what you have in the 2216nd.

Rob:)

Anti K

02-01-2021, 01:58 AM

Looking at the vintage 4 ways the best part of those systems in my mind were the 10" drivers used.

Yes. And, thats why, if You take a look at waterfalls then even best CD-s does not look so nice below ca 1200Hz. It makes you quicly think that there has to be a crossover at 1,2kHz region and then it's already obvoius: need a 10'' mid.
One more cross, one more phase mess, how to make it all sing like one element?

Like You sayd Yourselt, Rob, when You buid Your stuff. Several CD-s measured same but sounded differend. Some nicely, effortless, some not - same graph.

I think ... I do not why but have such a strange feeling, there is a tiny possibility: JBL made some prototypes before they sent 9900 and 66000 into production line. I think this is a tiny possibility they listened them a'bit before, Yo

Thanks, but no thanks. Fellow Rob and Dr.db, I'll pass the 10'' part. Not because it's a bad suggestion but;
Two reasons:
- have in mind build up full system from zero: enclosures, drivers (buyable ones, new ones), dsp-board, Purify boards for higher, nCores(as they are bridgeable) for lows, all these all in my own-made racks. Plenty of fun ... I'd stay with 3-way this time.
- another reason (a good one): if JBL itselt already placed 15'' below CD in ones of their best contemporary systems, in ones best systems on the Planet, than I do not want to try be smarter (I'm not crazy) but just try to clone - or not even clone - but rather take hints from there, the arrangement.

The exercise I took is ALREADY higher than me. If I want to play it Ok I have to do nothing but avoid mistakes. Simple!
But mathematics says: the probability of errors is related to the square of the number of elements.
The speaker. One cross, on error-possibility. Two crosses - 4 possibilities. 3 crosses (4-way) = 9 possibilities of errors. Simple!

I think I'm not able to make it right. I'll go basically 2-way. Low end is supportive - in the region cannot be heard the direction of sound. And Dirac Live probably helps me as well with the last one...

These 'veneered monsters', is a 'calculated simlicity' however they look like comlicated monsters. if take it in 'molecules', it's a simpliest way system with fewest possibilities of mistakes - one important cross: a two-way system. 4CD+15W.

Andy

ivica

02-01-2021, 02:37 AM

...........

Then, new topic: 476
What is so special in there? .......

Hi Anti K,

I think the main difference between 476Be driver and (vs) 2450-1.5 or 2451 equipped with Be(TruExtent diaphragm) is Be diaphragm suspension, as on 476Be the suspension is Be made in the shape as can be seen on other JBL 4" diaphragm ("diamond-shaped" 2441,2445,2446,2450, 2451...), as it has been explained in JBL Technical Notes
can be seen on the attached picture:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?36518-FS-(2)-JBL-2446J-Large-Format-Compression-Drivers-*Immaculate-Condition*&p=370262&viewfull=1#post370262

when D16R2441 has been introduced, such suspension would allow better ultra high frequencies response,
look at fig.4 on the JBL_Tehn_Notes_Vol.1_No.8 (explanation sec.4. A and sec.4.B)

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?4410-JBL-Technical-Notes-Volume-1-Number-8

especially if applied copper short-ring in the driver magnetic path (just to reduce the influence of the voice coil impedance in high frequency). Unfortunately the availability of the JBL original Be diaphragms is a problem, and its price would be something that is "over budget".

On my opinion, thinking about JBL_476Be application, would be finding proper horn that would be applied, as most of them (while neglecting M2 horn) would pronounce ultra high beaming over 12kHz. I think that only M2 horn would overcome such problem, but as can be seen M2 horn has not good driver loading under 1200Hz, but for "home listening applications", may be, M2&476Be can be used from about 700Hz applying sharper network ( LR-4_order ). Fortunately, JBL 2226Nd can be used in such combination as very good mid-bass driver.
For sure sub-buss up to 100Hz, would be welcome (I would prefer 18" bass driver there).
May be "helper bass" combination 2226Nd-1 and 2226Nd is possible solution too, as MR_Widget (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?3-Mr-Widget), has been experienced

Regards
ivica

grumpy

02-01-2021, 10:35 AM

2226Nd? ... say after me, 2216Nd... 2216Nd... 2216Nd ;)

Anti K

02-01-2021, 01:22 PM

M2&476Be can be used from about 700Hz applying sharper network ( LR-4_order )

Yes.
This is a part of plan, a sharp slope both of them, LP and HP

If compare, the DD66000 has 476Be crossed at 750Hz and newer DD67000 the crosspoint is rised to 850Hz.
For me it talks, if give to the driver some 'space' or 'vacation' in lower part, same 'item' works better at high section.
For same reason I plan 'free' the 2216Nd from lowest 3 octaves.

Was thinking one more thing:
In these stellar systems AL1500 Woofer has go as high as 850 (even 900Hx in K2S9900). No matter it's AlNiCo or what, just, 140gram of matter has to vibrate almost thousand times in second, sinusoidally.
So: 1500AL Fs is 19Hz and it has to work 20-900Hz.
2216Nd has 2X higher Fs, 36Hz and would work ca 80-850Hz.
Both Woofers have same Moving mass.
And Neo magnet is tough and differential drive a wise construction. Sounds promising (to me).

JeffW

02-01-2021, 01:57 PM

Unless you have a source for these esoteric drivers like the 476Be and any of the 1500/01/AL/AL-1 etc, I'd use what's more commonly available. The 2216Nd is the 2235 of today, they are used in consumer and pro and should have support for a while at least. 2451 motors are plentiful used, stuff a decent diaphragm in one of those and go on down the road. Both are nice pieces of kit and can actually be purchased.

Robh3606

02-01-2021, 02:11 PM

I think that only M2 horn would overcome such problem, but as can be seen M2 horn has not good driver loading under 1200Hz, but for "home listening applications", may be, M2&476Be can be used from about 700Hz applying sharper network ( LR-4_order ).

Hello Ivica

Why do you think the loading is not good below 1200Hz with the M2 horn?? I had no problem at all crossing at 700Hz 18db electrical slopes. Above 10K the M2 has directivity issues just like any other horn with a 1.5" throat. The knuckles help but the DI goes up and when doing measurements you can see this. Look at the power response curve.

Rob:)

ivica

02-02-2021, 09:44 AM

Hello Ivica

Why do you think the loading is not good below 1200Hz with the M2 horn?? I had no problem at all crossing at 700Hz 18db electrical slopes. Above 10K the M2 has directivity issues just like any other horn with a 1.5" throat. The knuckles help but the DI goes up and when doing measurements you can see this. Look at the power response curve.

Rob:)

Hi Robh3606,

Looking at the measurements, shown by our forum member sebackman ( http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?600-sebackman )

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?36789-Compact-monitor&p=373896&viewfull=1#post373896
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=65087&stc=1&d=1428338852

it seems to me that the LF driver loading by M2 horn is not so good, but as I have said, using sharp network and so called "home listening application" I would not expect any problem about diaphragm suspension, especially if it is not metal made.
Some of my "observations" were shown in:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?36789-Compact-monitor&p=375970&viewfull=1#post375970

We have to be aware that for twice lower frequency the diaphragm amplitude would be 4 (four) times larger, under the same driver&horn combo. If the sensitivity is less for lower frequencies, then even larger diaphragm amplitude would be in order to produce 'flat' response.
Due to that "fact" using JBL 476Be/Mg diaphragm ( our friend 4313B has) with 'diamond-shape suspension' under 1kHz can be a (destructive) problem on high levels, but for the D2430K, Radian-AL or Truextent-Be with a polymer suspension, I believe, would not be a problem. I think that even GT had mentioned some kind of THD rise in the lover mid of the M2&D2 combo on M2 speakers.

It would be nice if You can show us THD measurements for driver&horn (M2) combo You have been applied.

Regards
ivica

Robh3606

02-02-2021, 02:34 PM

it seems to me that the LF driver loading by M2 horn is not so good, but as I have said, using sharp network and so called "home listening application" I would not expect any problem about diaphragm suspension, especially if it is not metal made.
Some of my "observations" were shown in:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post375970 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?36789-Compact-monitor&p=375970&viewfull=1#post375970)

Hello Ivica

Thanks for posting that.

Something is not right?? We must be measuring under different conditions. I don't show any significant roll off until about 700Hz. I got the same measurements on 2 different calibrated measurement systems. I am wondering if he had a protection cap or some network in place when he did the measurement.

Looking at the measurement I can understand why you said that. I did mine with no protection cap.

ivica

02-03-2021, 01:38 AM

Hello Ivica

Thanks for posting that.

Something is not right?? We must be measuring under different conditions. I don't show any significant roll off until about 700Hz. I got the same measurements on 2 different calibrated measurement systems. I am wondering if he had a protection cap or some network in place when he did the measurement.

Looking at the measurement I can understand why you said that. I did mine with no protection cap.

Hi Robh3606,

From Your measurements, it can be concluded that You are absolute right to use it over 700Hz. May be the differences are in the diaphragm type, as Yours are JBL 476Mg type.
Can You show us horizontal dispersion data, if You have ?

Regards
Ivica

Ivica

Earl K

02-03-2021, 05:27 AM

Hi Robh3606,

From Your measurements, it can be concluded that You are absolute right to use it over 700Hz. May be the differences are in the diaphragm type, as Yours are JBL 476Mg type.
Can You show us horizontal dispersion data, if You have ?

Regards
Ivica

Ivica

Perhaps you should simply ask "sebackman" about what you're seeing to help straighten this out.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=65087&stc=1&d=1428338852

My guess it's a simple case of one using too small a window with the measuring software ( justMLS ).

From the same thread ( you referenced ), here's the same horn and driver measured with a 20ms window ( I'll bet the picture above that you like to refer to, used something like a 5ms window ).
- Some simple shelving EQ has been added here ( according to the posted info ) to flatten the raw response.

M2 waveguide with 2451SL/475Nd 20ms XO 544Hz LR24 100cm out with crude light eq (12db HS). Not too shabby

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=72085&d=1465934040

:)

sebackman

02-03-2021, 07:34 AM

Here I am :-)

Earl is right. From the post after the one you quoted Ivica there is data on the measure posted. I used a 4ms window which does not contain much data below 1k. A short window is used to reduce interference from the room in MLS measuring.

My findings show that the M2 WG provides good coupling down to about 700Hz and can probably be used lower with EQ. However I don't know how it sounds that low. I typically XO at 8-900Hz. -And about 1k for the VTX WG which sound surprisingly similar, at a fraction of the cost. I'm not saying they are interchangeable but it's a real good run for the money in a smaller cabinet that can be raised to listening height.

JeffW, I would argue that 2216 is not the new 2235. It is a new breed of 15" that can do LF and Mid up to 1k in a good way and we have not really had that before 2216. Maybe in (LE1400Nd/LE1400H, 14" I know) AL1500 or 1500FE.

There are several drivers that can measure up to 2216 in LF, I would argue that there are also drivers that can keep up in Mid. But none than can do both with the same panache. This gives us the opportunity to create a 2-way that sounds excellent, be it the M2 or the 4367 (or home brewed). Wonderful. A bit like JBL tried with DMS-1 with limited success.

Anti K, M2 is a "system" where every part is part of the success. If you start altering things (even little things) it will not be an M2, and in most cases not even close. The beauty of doing so anyway, is that you can chose any combination of drivers and cabinet that suits your ears and wallet. That is what I do.

Having listened to M2 and had them here (albeit clones) I can say that there is huge amounts of work and time going into getting a different combination (drivers, cabinet and DSP settings) to work as well together as in M2. If you are skilled with designing and measuring acoustics you can get there or at least close (enough). But if not, I suggest to "copy" a proven design of your liking to safeguard some kind of return on investment of time and money.

The time where we could assemble our own DIY set of drivers and create a system that is as good (or better) as what is available on the market has passed with these new complex system designs.

Manufacturers like JBL invests a lot of time and money to build systems like M2 and alike. It takes even them years to get there. -And then they have access to large anechoic chambers with computer aided measuring systems for consistency, an army of skilled and experienced people, unlimited access to driver units to try out and not least access to rapid prototyping.

Most of us have none of that, except for some, not least active here on LH, that do have a long experience and lots of knowledge.

Many people here (and elsewhere) have made wonderful DIY systems that no doubt produce excellent results but they have been experienced individuals from the start and have spent a lot of time to get it right.

Regarding subwoofers I would look at having at least 4 woofers spread out in the listening room (placed at the middle of each boundary/wall) to avoid room nodes. I also agree with Widget to investigate the possibility to turn you listening space 90 degrees in either direction. Pref away from the windows.

Regarding drivers, some of us prefer 4" drivers for various reasons. M2 is designed with a D2 driver and if you deviate from that you are on your own to develop XO/EQ settings. Be's are very transparent but I would sacrifice that to build a 2-way to avoid the UHF tweeter (cost and complexity). Mg is no doubt an excellent driver for a 2-way if you can find drivers and you wallet concur with the choice. I would argue that you can get to a similar level with a good set of 2451 cores, felt back cap and professionally installed (measured) SL diaphragms by using a good DSP.

I keep getting into these long rants. Sorry.

In short. Accept a "good enough system" with the drivers/cabinets of your choice or use a proven design. If you chose the first route, make sure you have lots of time available. And good measuring tools.

Kind regards
//Rob

Earl K

02-03-2021, 07:37 AM

Thanks Rob for all the clarifications.

It's very much appreciated!

:)

JeffW

02-03-2021, 08:31 AM

JeffW, I would argue that 2216 is not the new 2235. It is a new breed of 15" that can do LF and Mid up to 1k in a good way and we have not really had that before 2216. Maybe in (LE1400Nd/LE1400H, 14" I know) AL1500 or 1500FE.

I meant the new 2235 in context of a pro 15" being deployed in good numbers. The other 14 and 15 inch drivers you mention - are they readily available for purchase new and have replacement part support? The 2216 is and does. The 4430 was a 2-way 15" that used a 2235 and was in production for quite some time, so 15" 2-ways aren't new. I don't claim the 4430 is equal to the M2 or that 2235 is equal to the 2216, it's just that unless I had a set of drivers and a set of spares, I wouldn't design a system around limited production drivers with no after sale support.

The 2216, like the 2235 before, is being produced in large enough numbers on the pro side that it should have some support down the road, that was the reason for my comparison - not the sonic attributes.

Mr. Widget

02-03-2021, 09:29 AM

The time where we could assemble our own DIY set of drivers and create a system that is as good (or better) as what is available on the market has passed with these new complex system designs.
+1

It can be very satisfying and rewarding to tackle a modern DIY project, but short of building an accurate clone, the likelihood of matching the performance of a modern JBL or other top flight system is unlikely without a lot of work, prototyping, and a bit of good luck. Even with the excellent test equipment we have available these days, most of us do not have the test facilities that Harman and the other big boys have.

Many people here (and elsewhere) have made wonderful DIY systems that no doubt produce excellent results but they have been experienced individuals from the start and have spent a lot of time to get it right.
I have built my own system that I prefer over the M2, but I wouldn't pretend that it is a universally superior system. FWIW: It is also a more costly system than buying factory built M2s.

Widget

sebackman

02-03-2021, 01:14 PM

JeffW, with that I totally agree. With all of it.

Spending a lot of money and time, I would definitely follow your suggested path and get the best current (available) driver my wallet can withstand. :-) -And that is no doubt 2216Nd and not to forget the 2216Nd-1, that also can be found.

To Anti K, if a DIY construction/design is contemplated I still argue that, if subs are used, there are alternative configuration that may make sense to ears, room and wallet.

Widget, your designs don't count! You and a handfull others do have access to parts and knowledge most of us can dream about. No wonder your TAD's can give the M2 some stiff competition. That damn near cheating. ;-)

Kind regards
//Rob

macaroonie

02-03-2021, 04:28 PM

+1

It can be very satisfying and rewarding to tackle a modern DIY project, but short of building an accurate clone, the likelihood of matching the performance of a modern JBL or other top flight system is unlikely without a lot of work, prototyping, and a bit of good luck. Even with the excellent test equipment we have available these days, most of us do not have the test facilities that Harman and the other big boys have.

I have built my own system that I prefer over the M2, but I wouldn't pretend that it is a universally superior system. FWIW: It is also a more costly system than buying factory built M2s.

Widget

Very true at every level missing one thing which is that the room is the most significant contributor to the overall sound. This is where DSP is yer buddy.
I think JBL went down a wrong path with the 2235 with it's mass ring. Flippant comment but why not add an extra 30g to the HF dia so that they would sing together. Just kidding.
Betcha 2234 is not too far away from 2216 in many parameters as is oddly enough 1400pro / nd.
JBL have made some dogs over the years. We all know that and the why.
I hope our new friend from Estonia can develop his systen to his great satisfaction.

Regds M

Kreativlos

02-04-2021, 05:55 AM

+1

It can be very satisfying and rewarding to tackle a modern DIY project, but short of building an accurate clone, the likelihood of matching the performance of a modern JBL or other top flight system is unlikely without a lot of work, prototyping, and a bit of good luck. Even with the excellent test equipment we have available these days, most of us do not have the test facilities that Harman and the other big boys have.

I have built my own system that I prefer over the M2, but I wouldn't pretend that it is a universally superior system. FWIW: It is also a more costly system than buying factory built M2s.

Widget

Hey Mr. Widget,

What System is your own system?;)
Because the trend today is, that 2 way is the way to go and that super tweeters are not necessary for true to life reproduction and I cannot really agree with it. I guess the M2 is a very very good speaker, still need to hear it though, but there is no way that the D2 can reproduce triangles and cymbals like a proper tweeter like the JBL 2405 can...it's just physics imo. Even tho I've got to admit the quality of the tweeter is not nearly as important as the quality of the midrange driver and the woofer... those really have to be as close to perfect as possible... would love to hear your opinion on that:)
Btw I think 4 ways with a mid cone is a compromise I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice for the benefit. Too many problems with integration for too little improvement. In my mind ideal would be 15" Woofer top notch plus 2" Comp driver down 500hz and a tweeter of ones taste. I would also insist on good directivity across the fq range but that is also up to the room behavior and taste...

Best regards

Mr. Widget

02-04-2021, 08:36 AM

Hey Mr. Widget,

What System is your own system?;) My system is a more traditional system somewhat along the lines that you suggest as an ideal. While I am very pleased with the performance of my own system, on a theoretical level, I actually agree with the direction that JBL has taken.

The main reason I have followed the path I have is that I wanted to maintain a fully analog system. To do so at a very high level becomes quite costly though and you have to accept certain performance trade offs. That said, I would submit going the route I have taken you avoid other performance trade offs. As many others have said, loudspeaker design is all about juggling the compromises.

To answer your question though, here is a link to my Project Widgets (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?41842-Project-Widget).

Widget

Kreativlos

02-04-2021, 03:46 PM

My system is a more traditional system somewhat along the lines that you suggest as an ideal. While I am very pleased with the performance of my own system, on a theoretical level, I actually agree with the direction that JBL has taken.

The main reason I have followed the path I have is that I wanted to maintain a fully analog system. To do so at a very high level becomes quite costly though and you have to accept certain performance trade offs. That said, I would submit going the route I have taken you avoid other performance trade offs. As many others have said, loudspeaker design is all about juggling the compromises.

To answer your question though, here is a link to my Project Widgets (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?41842-Project-Widget).

Widget

Wow very very nice speaker! The initial try would be my kinda ideal Setup, maybe a different comp driver and bass, since td-4003 is just unobtainable and I like the looks of the TAD 1601x a lot but hey that's just cosmetics right. Would also go active analog. Thanks for sharing the information!!

Best regards

Anti K

02-04-2021, 04:15 PM

sebackman: I would argue that 2216 is not the new 2235
JeffW: The other 14 and 15 inch drivers you mention - are they readily available for purchase new and have replacement part support? The 2216 is and does.

Exactly!

Anti K, M2 is a "system" where every part is part of the success. If you start altering things (even little things) it will not be an M2, and in most cases not even close. The beauty of doing so anyway, is that you can chose any combination of drivers and cabinet that suits your ears and wallet. That is what I do.

Exactly!
What makes You think I'm doing that for any other reason but 'beauty of doing' ?
I didn't say never I'm doing M2. Or Everest. Or better :D:D:D

I hope our new friend from Estonia can develop his systen to his great satisfaction.

Thanks macaroonie!

_____________________

Just to be clear: All I'm saying is, plan purchase some drivers with good reference : what ARE ACTUALLY IN SALES as well!
Like JeffW pointed nicely.
The M2 lens are in sales, too. Nothing criminal.
... And put things together, trying avoid mistakes (the big ones). What depends on highs, then reading this forum it seems to me - integrate a 4'' with good reference is easyer than D2.
And to be honest, like 4'' CD too.

Thread name KM2 is just collecting hints from ones of the best systems, which obviusly are the M2 and K2 IMHO.
That's what I'm talking about. I'm not thinking over M2 or K2, but vice-versa.
Trying not to overthink!

PS: Mr. Widget's speakers are nice indeed, especially appreciate things are polished to the last bolt...

JeffW

02-04-2021, 05:02 PM

I'd advise jumping on in there and building something! These threads can go on and on, competing opinions weighing in on various aspects - but you seem to have a decent grasp of what you're after. If Design A doesn't cut it, go to Design B. I guarantee you those Widget speakers weren't his Design A. A journey of a thousand miles starting with the first step and all of that...

Anti K

02-05-2021, 09:21 AM

macaroonie

02-06-2021, 05:47 AM

A little off topic but some of you might find this interesting. I locked on to this guy a couple of years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ltZR9IWXaE

Obviously there are plenty of vids about Tallinn , this is an alternative view.

grumpy

02-06-2021, 01:03 PM

An interesting mini-tour. A reminder of places I've been. Thanks Mac.

Anti K

02-06-2021, 04:44 PM

But we have spectacular old down mostly from 11-16 century. UNESCO world Heritage List!
One fact: at about 1500 was built one tower of church, it was in this time World's Highest! 157,8 metres. (Cheops pyramide was this time 146,6, now 137 metres)
Ansient Greek myth describes how Sun-god Helios dropped part of Sun. Because if was seen in the sky of Greek that Sun's part is falling down - a metheor. Far later Greek sailors tryed to sail as north as possible. In some point they survived - this is the edge of land, rough seas and nothing.
End of Land : ULTIMA THULE. And there they found some people 'who arrested a Sun's part, put it under ground!' . The meteorite was seen in the sky in Greek and dropped down here... ca 1500 plus/minus 30y.
____________________

This paricular video shows our sadest part of our country. I personally don't want to go places like that, it reminds me times when there was only one sausage (item, not variety) in regular shop.
Was even times, to purchase food was allowed when You got 'tickets'...

Who was thinking other way, even got different haircut, was arrested. To go out with black leather jacket with rivets was sure thing to spend a night in concrete chamber...
Sallary was couple hundreds of Rub and $1 was 100 Rub on black (secret) market.

But somehow people smuggled in Vinyl LP-s (You can imagine the 'price' of this LP then...) and there were half-secret 'marketplaces' where audiofan's gathered together every sunday and changed Vinyls for recording. And of cause police (Milicia) made raids there and peole run like CRIMINALS. Because they have Vinyls... !?

It's so stuped I'm writing now this, and it's even to me unbelivible unless I've seen all this...
That's why I do not like these kind of videos.

And this time mid'80 I made my Highlight. I was ca 14Y old. Started my audio journey. Got somehow Sony-Walkman-type player with radio.
And from this time I name my journey of building stuff: player was so expecive (relatively) and also headphones - it was out of question to break something. And for recording from radio (our neightbor contry was free Finland) I was recording music from their some Rock Radio. But - I didn't have additional plug!!!???
I made a 3,5mm plug handmade, with handfile, under zoomglass, all contcentric rings and 3 wires and insulators, pronze parts material from ... pen.
The body made from casette plastic with soldering iron. Ugly but worked.
Had to!
I thank my father despite hard times got me best possible soviet amps, speakers etc...

Sorry about offtopic but I cannot otherway but react.

macaroonie

02-06-2021, 05:24 PM

@AntiK Sorry if that touched a nerve , it wasn't intended to .

The guy that does these vids is quietly critical of the crazyness of the Soviet era.
For me it was interesting to see this. I have not been to Estonia / Tallin but I have been to Riga and was really pleased with the welcome from the people.
Amazing place and Tallinn is on my list for sure.
I strongly recommend any members here to visit the Baltic states. You will not regret it.

M

Mr. Widget

02-06-2021, 05:33 PM

Sorry about offtopic but I cannot otherway but react.Thank you for sharing. You have further filled in the color of the image of Estonia for us.

In 1970 as a young American tourist traveling with my parents I was able to visit Moscow and what was then called Leningrad. It was very eye opening. Seeing large stores with mostly empty shelves, grand boulevards with almost no cars being swept by old women sweeping with brooms made of twigs and people lined up outside of shoe shops exchanging shoes to get a matched pair that fit their feet because the store had such a limited supply left me with a lasting impression.

No country is perfect or has a past to be completely proud of, but it seems Estonia has done a pretty fine job. With luck the young people in Russia today will eventually take power away from the corrupt oligarchs.

Widget

srm51555

02-06-2021, 07:58 PM

Yes, thank you for sharing.

1audiohack

02-06-2021, 10:04 PM

....But - I didn't have additional plug!!!???
I made a 3,5mm plug handmade, with handfile, under zoomglass, all contcentric rings and 3 wires and insulators, pronze parts material from ... pen.
The body made from casette plastic with soldering iron. Ugly but worked.
Had to!...

I cannot express, even in my own language how much I am impressed and appreciate this! Amazing and astounding are a couple of words that come to mind.

Thank you for sharing.
Barry.

Ian Mackenzie

02-06-2021, 10:59 PM

I think ... I do not why but have such a strange feeling, there is a tiny possibility: JBL made some prototypes before they sent 9900 and 66000 into production line. I think this is a tiny possibility they listened them a'bit before, Yo

Thanks, but no thanks. Fellow Rob and Dr.db, I'll pass the 10'' part. Not because it's a bad suggestion but;
Two reasons:
- have in mind build up full system from zero: enclosures, drivers (buyable ones, new ones), dsp-board, Purify boards for higher, nCores(as they are bridgeable) for lows, all these all in my own-made racks. Plenty of fun ... I'd stay with 3-way this time.
- another reason (a good one): if JBL itselt already placed 15'' below CD in ones of their best contemporary systems, in ones best systems on the Planet, than I do not want to try be smarter (I'm not crazy) but just try to clone - or not even clone - but rather take hints from there, the arrangement.

Andy

One of the biggest mistakes you can make buy coming here is to draw conclusions or predict outcomes of a proposed loudspeaker project based a observations of a Jbl commercial system.

Jbl makes a number of prototypes and the industrial design is very much a part of the end acoustic result. Because the consumer has to like the look of it and it’s voiced to work in a variety of listening situations that some compromises into the final consumer design.

Take for example the DD67000 and prior DD66000. They were designed for triamp operation according to Greg Timber’s and the rear terminal plate has extra holes under the foil cap. But it had to be packaged as a full passive/ Biamp system for marketing purposes.

The Everest woofers are not as light or as fast as a pro mid bass driver. But a pro mid bass driver does not have the ultra low distortion or bass of the 1500 AL series soa drivers. I think the Everest woofer blends very well when the system is properly set up but not all users agree!

Do you are best to make some modules for the woofer , horn and uhf drivers and swap around until get get what works in YOUR environment. The room, where you put the enclosure and where you listen from is the single most influential factor of what you hear.

There are some basic rules. A simple two way system will never match the linearity of a multi way system at the lowest and highest frequencies. This is why Jbl added a helper woofer and a uhf driver in the Everest.

If you like solid deep bass your looking at either an additional sub woofer, an extended bass woofer and a multi way system or a helper woofer. If you want crystal clear highs and wide dispersion you will need a uhf driver. Don’t fall for opinion and glorious after market beryllium diaphragms that fall off above 10,000 hertz.

Frequency response measurements are not the be all and end all. Listen and keep listening.

Be prepared to be flexible. No successful loudspeaker is set in stone online or on the drawing board.

ivica

02-07-2021, 01:09 PM

Hello Ivica

Thanks for posting that.

Something is not right?? We must be measuring under different conditions. I don't show any significant roll off until about 700Hz. I got the same measurements on 2 different calibrated measurement systems. I am wondering if he had a protection cap or some network in place when he did the measurement.

Looking at the measurement I can understand why you said that. I did mine with no protection cap.

Hello Robh3606,

I do know how I have not seen Your nice work presented here:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?40537-Which-horns-for-JBL-2451-Be-drivers&p=412387&viewfull=1#post412387

Nice Work.

Regards
Ivica

Anti K

02-07-2021, 02:03 PM

PEACE! Thank You all for support.
The video didn't touched as much my nerve as I was worried; showing just one side of view doesn't show whole picture.
Fortunately I see folks here are very well informed, appreciate.

Don’t fall for opinion and glorious after market beryllium diaphragms /... /

I try :D

Lets leave the money-talk for a moment. Lets play game we do not know the costs, compare things as they are. And no opinions what neighbour's friend sayd...
I see basically 3 options. JBL476Be, TAD4001, Radian951Be.
First one is not in sales, purchase is a gamble, and if even, not new. Next two are on market, both have 5 split phase plug (476 has 4 split). Last one has surround made from extemely durable, strength, light, dumping material: Mylar.
I think if choose no matter which one from 3, no regrets.

But seems I cannot ignore the UHF anymore - got too many advises already.
(and I have an option if i install it and still not like - all active - just turn OFF :D)
And THAT'S a question, which one. Here is even less options, both not available, TAD073 and JBL045Be.

Anti K

02-07-2021, 02:20 PM

....But - I didn't have additional plug!!!???
I made a 3,5mm plug handmade, with handfile, under zoomglass
Had to!...

I cannot express, even in my own language how much I am impressed and appreciate this! Amazing and astounding are a couple of words that come to mind.

Thanks 1audiohack !
Appreciate You appreciate.
A bit more difficult was later project I was older. Made drafts and ordered from Germany moulding forms for round-shape speakers.
6,5'' / 12'' /15-18''. They still are in my warehouse. Moulding form for enclosure for 18'' was 3 feet diameter monoblock 'stump' from pure Aluminium. Actually 2 'stumps'. Wasn't allowed any tiny bubble inside material. Milled empty, sanded as smooth as possible inside (outside of enclosure).
In one thread here was a problem with saw the M2 lens. 'Material is a bitch', sayd master. Some abrasives where added into plastic. I added sand to polyehylene anno 2000 make it more rigid.
My avatar is one of them. Hi-gloss paint.
Stand is stainless steel; upper part cross of it is water-cut from 2'' thick stainless sheet and legs 0,5'' thin, 5 elements welded in one piece, sanded, polished...

What I'm saying. Form versus content. I'm more on content now. Want to hear as well, not just watch :)

But now: What UHF I add to my veneered monsters? I see 2 options: 045 or yes?

Anti K

02-07-2021, 03:19 PM

Have one more idea.
Lot of people had opinions about setup, the layout or...
Qeuss why is there a round carpet in lounge (listening) area. On draft up is my desk, on right is working area.

Ian Mackenzie

02-07-2021, 03:28 PM

There are some very good alternatives for uhf.

If you need high sensitivity look at some small Heil drivers or Ribbon drivers.
Fostex make some small horn UHF but they are expensive and may not appeal subjectively.

Ian Mackenzie

02-07-2021, 03:39 PM

Kreativlos

02-07-2021, 06:41 PM

18Sound also has a very good be driver if you want to go Be.

There was a review in Voice Coil a pro loudspeaker industry journal comparing a Radian Be driver to a Radian Ai driver. They both scored very high performance. If l were you l would look at lower cost options to begin with.

I would also look at Joseph Crowe new Horns from Canada. They are next generation and and have very good attributes.

The Joseph Crowe Horns look really promising! Designed for 2 way mainly tho. Sure you could ask him to develop custom horns for you.
Btw you should ask yourself do you want a slot or a ring style of uhf. Has to do with personal taste your room and system integration, I would go for slot (beyma still builds something like a 2405) but the bullets like Fostex T925A do sound pretty sweet too!!

JeffW

02-07-2021, 07:26 PM

But now: What UHF I add to my veneered monsters? I see 2 options: 045 or yes?

If you can find them, that's another driver with likely no support from JBL. Fostex makes some nice tweeters, if I was in the market I think I'd look at some of their higher-end offerings. At least you can buy them!

And now I see Kreativlos has already mentioned the Fostex line.

Ian Mackenzie

02-07-2021, 07:41 PM

Joseph Crowe has 600, 800, 1200 and some uHF horn designs.

Design of a truly great 2 way system is in fact more difficult if better results are to be obtained than a 3 or 4 way system.

This is because each driver is being asked to do more outside of its optimal operating range.
Obtaining the optimal tonal balance is more difficult as the response of the 2 drivers will very likely require EQ in 2 or even 3 areas to voice the overall system. This is beyond what most diy audio amateurs can achieve with their skills and resources at home. Success can depend on an optimal response within a range +0.5 - 0 - -0.5 dB.

It is far simpler for an audio amateur to achieve this with individual level controls for the midrange, horn, uhf drivers relative to the woofer.

It’s also generally more cost effective to have a specific driver for each frequency range and there are far more options available than soa drivers that promise good results in a 2 way design.

Jbl tends to make variations of specific drivers to serve a particular role in their soa consumer systems.

Again you have far more control and flexibility in a multi way system of your own design which is often an evolving design.

This could be a sub and a uhf driver added to augment a conventional 2 way system or a classic 3 or 4 way system with deliberately restricted driver operating ranges.

In terms of practical results most diy users identify with (1) grouped
system linearity (low dynamic compression at all frequencies) tonal balance and low THD more readily than (2) grouped esoteric time alignment and flat power response attributes. These attributes are more useful in a highly optimised acoustic environment. This is rarely the case in a domestic consumer setting.

If you can’t achieve the former (1) first the later (2) is pointless.

It’s surprising that many diy audio amateurs focus on the later (2) without giving the former (1) real attention.

An emotional connection requires the former (1) attributes which are the hallmarks of many of Jbls project systems.

If you have ever compared a Dahlquist DQ10 or a Vandensteen
Model 2CE to a vintage Jbl 4344 or a more recent Jbl consumer 4467 you will appreciate the distinction.

ivica

02-08-2021, 01:35 AM

......

But now: What UHF I add to my veneered monsters? I see 2 options: 045 or yes?

Hi Anti K,

may be BMS 4540 is one candidate too, as UHF driver.

Regards
Ivica

Anti K

02-08-2021, 03:16 AM

But now: What UHF I add to my veneered monsters? I see 2 options: 045 or yes?

If you can find them, that's another driver with likely no support from JBL

Yep. Seems that way unfortunately.
Seems JBL moves the high section to dual-dia. Which seems logical though - HF and UHF both from same decent lens...
Small sibling they have now is D2415.

Anti K

02-08-2021, 12:58 PM

There are some very good alternatives for uhf.

... or Ribbon drivers.

Have a Aurum Cantus G3.

macaroonie

02-08-2021, 03:04 PM

Have a Aurum Cantus G3.

That was in my mind also. Max output might be of concern. Fountek also a possibility.

Ian Mackenzie

02-08-2021, 03:24 PM

Anti K

02-08-2021, 03:30 PM

Have a Aurum Cantus G3.

That was in my mind also. Max output might be of concern.

I don't know. Double then :D

macaroonie

02-08-2021, 03:38 PM

I don't know. Double then :D

That won't work. However if you are handing over at 15k + then the gross power envelope will not be that huge. Some of the AC and Fountek drivers rate at 60 watts. A single driver should be fine.
If you use a horn you should have ample spl.

JeffW

02-08-2021, 03:46 PM

Some of the ScanSpeak dome tweeters have sensitivity of 95 dB. If you attenuate the horn back this this alternative would work. A small diameter dome or a ring radiator type with dimple will have improved dispersion at high frequencies.

The other thing you can do is move by the dome in a small wave guide.

I think it was badman who did some testing of dome tweeters in small waveguides, so I mounted a ScanSpeak 9700 into a little 1" Parts Express waveguide. Holy smokes, that thing came alive - way too much for the little 2 way I was planning, but a fun test.

There are also some well regarded beryllium dome tweeters out there, SB and ScanSpeak both make some I think, if the OP wants Be

Anti K

02-08-2021, 03:47 PM

That won't work. However if you are handing over at 15k + then the gross power envelope will not be that huge. Some of the AC and Fountek drivers rate at 60 watts. A single driver should be fine.
If you use a horn you should have ample spl.

wait a minute, this AC G3 rates 60W, 100dB sensitivity. Or I misunderstood something.

Anti K

02-08-2021, 04:02 PM

I think it was badman who did some testing of dome tweeters in small waveguides

:)

I think it was badbadman. They are tested without waveguides IMHO.
Maybe that's why I never heard any dome tweeter I liked.

Ribbons ... graphs sometimes are almost 'boring'. Just stight lines...
Well, vertical dispersion is't good.

JeffW

02-08-2021, 04:54 PM

:)

I think it was badbadman. They are tested without waveguides IMHO.
Maybe that's why I never heard any dome tweeter I liked.

Ribbons ... graphs sometimes are almost 'boring'. Just stight lines...
Well, vertical dispersion is't good.

Here's the article, FWIW (the author posts as badman here)

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0311/supertweeter.htm

Anti K

02-12-2021, 07:17 AM

Wow, look what's written here! :D

... or, put the 476Be in the M2, use the 2216nd in the 80Hz-800Hz decade, and /... / subs

(just kidding)
06-13-2015, 08:35 AM
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33972-JBL-Master-Reference-Monitor/page51

Anti K

02-12-2021, 07:23 AM

Could somebody please have the (exact) dimensions of this WG

Anti K

02-14-2021, 01:43 PM

Port or Noport, that's the question.
K2 and Everests have rear ports. Why?
(i make curved back, if it makes any difference, in terms of port tuned to 27Hz)

M2 has front-mounted ports, obviously, they are used often in Theatres as well, while installed directly to the wall, same with Sub18, there is no question.

While drawing CNC files got opportunity reduce the height of monsters significally and measures overall, just inside construction went complicated.
Especially mounting long front ports.
Rear mounting allows install straight ports with ease, looking spead like DD60000.

Or go to sealed (!?) - what I get is minus 6db at 32Hz.

Ian Mackenzie

02-14-2021, 02:16 PM

The M2 is a equalised bass reflex system. The K9900 and the DD67000 are not.

The later rely on the proximity of room boundaries to augment the bass extension and bass output below 100 hertz. The rear placement of the port supports this function as the rear ports are closer to the room boundaries than a front firing port.

Anti K

02-15-2021, 12:00 AM

The later rely on the proximity of room boundaries to augment the bass extension and bass output below 100 hertz. The rear placement of the port supports this function as the rear ports are closer to the room boundaries than a front firing port.

Replacement of speakers is more complicated?
Or doesn't matter, front- or rearported, away from the wall there is a 'mess' at low section anyway...?
DSP room correction is a friend.

Mr. Widget, You made Yourself a sealed, measures of speaker wasn't only reason :) ?

Mr. Widget

02-15-2021, 08:43 AM

Mr. Widget, You made Yourself a sealed, measures of speaker wasn't only reason :) ?For my “Project Widget” project, since I was attempting to create an ultimate system, I mocked up everything prior to the final build.

I mocked up baffle shapes around the mid horn, relative driver placement, and I built both sealed and ported enclosures of different sizes for both the 10” TAD midbass driver and the JBL Sub1500.

For my drivers in this application, sealed was the way to go for the Sub1500.

Widget

ivica

02-16-2021, 06:37 AM

For my “Project Widget” project, since I was attempting to create an ultimate system, I mocked up everything prior to the final build.

I mocked up baffle shapes around the mid horn, relative driver placement, and I built both sealed and ported enclosures of different sizes for both the 10” TAD midbass driver and the JBL Sub1500.

For my drivers in this application, sealed was the way to go for the Sub1500.

Widget

Hi Mr. Widget,

Any kind of LF correction has been applied ??

Regards
Ivica

Anti K

02-16-2021, 11:48 AM

Got the internal structure in place.

Measures are not monsters anymore; If compared to the real beasts.
Maybe Fountec UHF ribbons, maybe even round shape to keep options open, vertical or horisontal.

Mr. Widget

02-16-2021, 01:13 PM

Hi Mr. Widget,

Any kind of LF correction has been applied ??

Regards
IvicaYes.

Ian Mackenzie

02-16-2021, 11:22 PM

Replacement of speakers is more complicated?
Or doesn't matter, front- or rearported, away from the wall there is a 'mess' at low section anyway...?
DSP room correction is a friend.

Mr. Widget, You made Yourself a sealed, measures of speaker wasn't only reason :) ?

The point is if you are going the diy route you are more likely to achieve the optimal bass response with some low frequency EQ using a 2216nd woofer. Being reliant on enclosure placement with a rear port to achieve optimal bass is very much a hit and miss affair. You might sacrifice imaging for good bass or visa versa.

The 2216nd will take a stack of power and has ample cone excursion for electrical EQ.

In my own experience using room boundaries to obtain a satisfactory bass response requires movement of the woofer in a 3D axis. Moving an enclosure back and force and or sideways can work but the distance of the woofer from the floor can also effect boundary coupling and impact on higher frequencies.

Anti K

02-17-2021, 10:42 AM

Question:

coming back to tweeter 045.
Tech spec says the sensitivity is 87dB (!). Is it mistake or does the JBL OR tiny wavequide rise as high as 96dB: sensitivity of DD67000.

pos

02-17-2021, 12:08 PM

There is a typo indeed: it should read 1V instead if 2.83V, as confirmed in the curve page 8 of the EDS: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=57200&stc=1&d=1350657541

There is a 9dB difference when going from 1V to 2.83V, so 87dB becomre 96dB...
Also note that this is the 045Mg. The Be version might possibly be a bit more sensitive in that frequency range.

Anti K

02-17-2021, 01:42 PM

sebackman

02-17-2021, 02:16 PM

Anti K

02-17-2021, 11:16 PM

They are very low sensi but also 4 ohms so in reality they are about 91db. And they do add some gain from the horns. I use K2 S9900 horns.

//Rob

That surprises me.
At least these are compression drivers...

That horn, visually same?
https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-dd66000-uhf-horn-361861-002/

sebackman

02-18-2021, 04:36 AM

They appear to have different part numbers.

The K2 S9900 seem to use 365181-002 (93db system 045Be-1 XO 24db @ 15kHz) whereas the DD66000/DD67000 (96db system 045Be-1 XO 24db @ 20kHz) is stated as 361861-002.

The UHF filters differ slightly between DD66000 and DD67000 even if the specs are the same. Odd.

K2 S9800 uses 337106-002 (94db system 045Be XO 24db @ 10kHz)

Slightly more UHF damping in S9800 than S9800 and lower XO suggest earlier sensitivity numbers are reasonable with beaming in the WG compensation for drop off in sensitivity.

I have no idea what the difference might be in the WG's. I XO mine @ 12kHz.

As you are building your own DIY system you can combine as you see fit. IMHO there are is limited lessons to learn from the "factory systems" when it comes to details, you just have to build, measure and listen. That is where the fun is.

I also use SUB1500, as Widget, and in sealed boxes as subs as they were designed for. Works fine if you have lots of power to them. However, I would recommend ported designs with the drivers you have identified.

I still say skip UHF and go for a pair of 476Mg if you can find them. Or settle for a nice pair of 2451SL, which listening wise comes to a very similar level . -Less complicated, fewer power amps and saves money & time.

With high quality DSP power available at low costs there is really no need to go 4-way anymore, as the M2 has made very evident. And if the output of the 2216 is not enough use two, as many have suggested. Or put a 2269 sub below as you seem to like.

Unless designed for cinema use with lots of LFE I would go dual 2216 before 2269.

Kind regards
//Rob

pos

02-18-2021, 06:19 AM

Hi Pos.

No typo. They are very low sensi but also 4 ohms so in reality they are about 91db. And they do add some gain from the horns. I use K2 S9900 horns.

At least that is what my measures shows on mine.

//Rob
Hi Rob,

There is a typo: the table shows 87dB/1m at 15kHz for 2.83V, whereas all the graphs show that same 87dB value at 15kHz for 1V.
If the voltage value found in the curves is the right one (which is most probably the case), then this driver's sensitivity at 15kHz is:

87dB for 1V
93dB for 2V, which is 1W for the nominal 4 ohm load here
96dB for 2.83V, which is the voltage value at which the DD67000 sensitivity is calculated (as well as pretty much all JBL loudspeakers using the 045)

The curves also indicate that the measurement is taken with the S9800 UHF waveguide.
I doubt the choice of waveguide makes any meaningful difference at 15kHz.

Robh3606

02-18-2021, 06:36 AM

When I built my Be Arrays I used the 045Be and it was in the upper 90's as far as sensitivity. I had to pad it down to meet the LE-14H-3 so it is definitely not 87Db. That documents seems a bit messed up. If you look at the high level measurement it looks a bit closer to the 045Be measurements we have.

Rob:)

sebackman

02-18-2021, 10:34 AM

It seems like XO and horn does play an important role in usage/sensitivity of the 045 family (Ti, Mg & Be).

I agree that the spec says 2,83V and the graph (if level calibrated) seem to say 1V. Maybe you are right, I rest my case.

Here are the system sensitivities for some of the 045 systems

DD66000 & DD67000 are 96db XO20k, 0,47 ohms in series no other attenuation, 24 db
S9900 are 93db XO 15kHz, 0,47 ohms in series no other attenuation, 24db
S9800 are 94 db XO 10kHz, 1,5 ohms in series no other attenuation, 24db
1400 Array are 89db XO 8kHz, 7,5 ohm in series no other attenuation, 24db

The sensitivity drop with frequency and the higher the XO the less the attenuation. Makes me wonder how they manage to get the top end in the S9800 and 1400Arays wher they do have attenuation on the whole driver.

That seem to indicate that the sensitivity is about where you predict POS, dropping with frequency and mitigated by beaming.

I will look att my DSP settings later tonight.

Kind regards
//Rob

pos

02-18-2021, 11:27 AM

Makes me wonder how they manage to get the top end in the S9800 and 1400Arays wher they do have attenuation on the whole driver.
The impedance is rising from 7kHz up, so the series resistor will produce less and less attenuation at higher frequencies.

Anti K

02-19-2021, 02:58 PM

I'm confused:
Is thats why UHF is 'the must' for Be HF because it rolls off at higher section,
_______:and that's why is needed add a UHF what rolls off at higher section :blink:

JBL with unlimited resurces and best ears didn't have enough resourses and ears to deal with this hole at 20k?

A'bit more seriously, what would be a seriuos alternative into JBL original UHF horn instead 045.
The ScanSpeaks and stuff, the graphs are even more ugly. Just with that exception, less sensi and less power handling - Grandma 's things.

Or is - like strongly seems to me - the separate UHF time over, there comes one by one with dual ring radiators, the D2430, the D2415, all in new lenses.
Do they image so much better or is it just money, the production process...

Info from thread DD66000:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?32446-DIY-Everest-DD66000-finally/page6

JeffW

02-19-2021, 03:09 PM

If the supertweeter response has a hole at 20K where nobody can even hear it - does it matter other than graphs?

Anti K

02-19-2021, 04:08 PM

If the supertweeter response has a hole at 20K where nobody can even hear it - does it matter other than graphs?

EXACTLY!
But what if there would be another hole as well after 20k. A 'black hole'...
But, what we know, when best ears put these things together.
There is probably some delicious specified nuance we never reach in our lifetime, specially when listen music like that:
(special attention at 8:30)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4emogJU_pdA

Actaully I think DD66000 is weak for this.

Robh3606

02-19-2021, 04:23 PM

I don't see the worry. What media are you using?? If it's CD anything above 20K is a moot point!

Rob:)

JeffW

02-19-2021, 07:01 PM

EXACTLY!
But what if there would be another hole as well after 20k. A 'black hole'...
But, what we know, when best ears put these things together.
There is probably some delicious specified nuance we never reach in our lifetime, specially when listen music like that:
(special attention at 8:30)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4emogJU_pdA

Actaully I think DD66000 is weak for this.

Maybe JBL ears decided the supertweeter was too hot in the 20K range and engineered the dip?

Anti K

02-20-2021, 02:14 AM

I don't see the worry. What media are you using?? If it's CD anything above 20K is a moot point!

Rob:)

Worry is, I have now 3 options.
Or active DD67000 (original enclosures), or 'monsters' with 4367 lens , or M2 lens (made cabin's CNC drafts already, material didn't touched yet).

JeffW was right - there comes options. Came.

And as 476 is near-impossible to get then it's not a problem anymore either: Radian 951 (with another label of cause) is new 'official' 476 at Everest.
Only questionable thing is 045 ... if go Everest.

Anti K

02-20-2021, 05:07 AM

If that's true what shown on graphs, don't see any reason to avoid this...
Have heard ribbons before, and they sound.

For the UHF...

Mr. Widget

02-20-2021, 09:39 AM

And as 476 is near-impossible to get then it's not a problem anymore either: Radian 951 (with another label of cause) is new 'official' 476 at Everest.
Only questionable thing is 045 ... if go Everest.The Radian driver presumably will not have the JBL diaphragm, unless JBL has elected to give them the design and has wholly gotten out of the high-end driver business. There are a lot of unknowns there.

Widget

Robh3606

02-20-2021, 01:15 PM

The Radian driver presumably will not have the JBL diaphragm, unless JBL has elected to give them the design and has wholly gotten out of the high-end driver business. There are a lot of unknowns there.

Widget

That the there is a throat mismatch to the horn. They use mylar like the 2435/2431 435Be 435Al

Rob:)

Anti K

02-20-2021, 02:43 PM

That the there is a throat mismatch to the horn. They use mylar like the 2435/2431 435Be 435Al

Rob:)

Radian uses Be Dias and Mylar surround for 4inch as well. Light, dumping and durable.
Throats are same: 1,4 and 2 inch.

Not too boring reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoPET

JeffW

02-20-2021, 04:18 PM

Horns designed for D2 or 476 drivers have 1.5 inch throats.

Anti K

02-20-2021, 05:34 PM

Horns designed for D2 or 476 drivers have 1.5 inch throats.

MY BAD! 38 vs 35,56mm.
Saw a picture and was thinking is the flange's hole conical or do I see the pic just like that. Now here is the answer.
Yo, there is also 2inch version in radian standard, probaly JBL got the extra 1,5version then (+0,05inch radius)

However, Behringer-folks assembled 476 and 951 to same horn (9800 imho) and wrote:

Due to the 4 slit phase plug, the JBL shows a drop in height from approx. 15 kHz. The superelevation at 12-14 kHz is due to the diamond pattern suspension and is not a problem in terms of sound. Since the drop in height is not uniform, equalization in the crossover is more difficult. Without the ingenious linearization of impedance by means of a copper-clad pole plate, the drop to the heights would be more serious.
The radian falls through the 5 slit phase plug and the polymer suspension absolutely evenly up to 20 kHz and has up to 4 dB more "breath" above 17 kHz. This makes it very easy to rectify.

Jbl put the Radian in there for reason, seems to me, and Everest is better than ever(est).
My Merz has also Cont tyres, Bosch el.mech, thousand pieces from somewhere but combo rides smooth.

Maybe it's even good news, at least Everest is still there and even not Bluetooth-compatible...

Mr. Widget

02-20-2021, 07:05 PM

Jbl put the Radian in there for reason, seems to me, and Everest is better than ever(est).I would bet the only reason for the change is economics. I doubt the performance has improved with the driver change, but it is possible.

With all due respect to Behringer, I’ll trust the engineering done at Harman over attempts at reverse engineering.

Widget

Earl K

02-21-2021, 05:56 AM

Due to the 4 slit phase plug, the JBL shows a drop in height from approx. 15 kHz. The superelevation at 12-14 kHz is due to the diamond pattern suspension and is not a problem in terms of sound. Since the drop in height is not uniform, equalization in the crossover is more difficult. Without the ingenious linearization of impedance by means of a copper-clad pole plate, the drop to the heights would be more serious.
The radian falls through the 5 slit phase plug and the polymer suspension absolutely evenly up to 20 kHz and has up to 4 dB more "breath" above 17 kHz. This makes it very easy to rectify.

I would bet the only reason for the change is economics. I doubt the performance has improved with the driver change, but it is possible.

With all due respect to Behringer, I’ll trust the engineering done at Harman over attempts at reverse engineering.

Widget

His quote refers to Guido.

EarlK

Mr. Widget

02-21-2021, 09:34 AM

His quote refers to Guido.

EarlKYes, as in Behringer Electric. That’s why I said with all due respect. The other Behringer wouldn’t be afforded the comment.

Widget

macaroonie

02-21-2021, 11:15 AM

Yes, as in Behringer Electric. That’s why I said with all due respect. The other Behringer wouldn’t be afforded the comment.

Widget

With you on that one Widget. Sadly they own Tannoy now.

Robh3606

02-21-2021, 11:26 AM

Yes, as in Behringer Electric. That’s why I said with all due respect. The other Behringer wouldn’t be afforded the comment.

Widget

Look at the data sheet. Response drops like a stone from 10K

Rob :)

Anti K

02-21-2021, 02:51 PM

Look at the data sheet. Response drops like a stone from 10K

Rob :)

It is one of this weird drivers needs a crossover :)

The graph You attached - DD67000 is 96dB - the graph shows 951Be does EXACTLY 96db@20kHz.

Quite smooth graph IMHO to handle.
There is a impedance rise at 1+KHz, has to take passively down even if make an active system, I think.

Earl K

02-21-2021, 03:57 PM

Yes, as in Behringer Electric. That’s why I said with all due respect. The other Behringer wouldn’t be afforded the comment.

Widget

Oh Okay.

I really wasn't sure which entity you were referring to.

Guido has published a bunch of useful information on his website ( mostly about Be diaphragmed drivers ) << so >> he deserves credits for that ( IMHO ) .

:)

Anti K

02-23-2021, 02:28 PM

ivica

02-24-2021, 08:00 AM

here came new aspects... (not right time to publish it yet)

Am I crazy or is this possibility build up a 100dB-sensitivity system with 2x2216Nd + Ra951Be ?
40-18000Hz (-3dB)
In that case 045 is not capable anyhow (with it's '90dB hole')

Here was a topic about new D2415K, did someone measured it or has spec, how it acts at UHF area?

Hi Anti K,

May BMS 4540ND would be OK
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_4540nd
(http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_4540nd)or Ferrous 4538
https://www.thomann.de/gb/bms_45388_ohm.htm

and Slenium Horn HM-17-25
https://www.parts-express.com/Selenium-HM17-25-1-Bi-Radial-Horn-60x40-1-3-8-18-TPI-264-308?AID=10572100&PID=100035528&SID=69111X1517312Xa65e740b7e1ca791899d81caf070e578&cjevent=04b458fb76b211eb801b00f00a18050d&utm_source=CJ&utm_campaign=100035528

Features:

Horn Type: Bi-radial
Minimum Frequency: 1,500 Hz
Nominal Dispersion: 60o H x 40o V
Throat Diameter: 1.0″
Mounting Type: 1-3/8″-18 TPI
Dimensions: 6.34″ W x 5.16″ H x 4.16″ D

Regards
Ivica

Anti K

02-25-2021, 02:44 PM

Hi Anti K,

May BMS 4540ND would be OK
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_4540nd

... nice and quality built, has good feedback...
Probably I test it.

But could You (or somebody) please explain what's going on with that after 15kHz?

Or here:
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bms-data/curves_compression/neodymium/bms_4545nd_curves.jpg
Does really 2nd harmonic rise so much when turn the Volume Knob...?
The first graph 1W and second 10W. What is the actual level between voice and 2ndHD. And what it could be at 60W, and what happens after 10kHz?
I'm seriously asking...

Anti K

02-25-2021, 04:54 PM

Why there is so few Ribbons used in serious systems? Is that for they are so fragile?
Cannot even breathe on...

They do not play low well. But at near-UHF region they - seems to me - just superb. And logic: surface of element weigth is measured in milligrams (not grams...).
Low distortions, excellent waterfalls (above 5-10kHz).
And they do not just measure nice, they actually sound christal clean highs. Despite bullets or rings mostly screem. What is the phenomenom?

Why they are avoided. At stage, I understand - fragile. But in room. Fix install...

Mr. Widget

02-25-2021, 06:18 PM

I guess it depends on your application. Ribbons are mini line arrays and as such they typically have very limited vertical dispersion. This can be a boon or a limiting factor. Also most ribbons are not terribly sensitive.

But yes, I agree, a quality ribbon can sound exceptional.

Widget

Anti K

02-26-2021, 06:40 AM

ivica

02-26-2021, 11:28 PM

... nice and quality built, has good feedback...
Probably I test it.

But could You (or somebody) please explain what's going on with that after 15kHz?

Or here:
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bms-data/curves_compression/neodymium/bms_4545nd_curves.jpg
Does really 2nd harmonic rise so much when turn the Volume Knob...?
The first graph 1W and second 10W. What is the actual level between voice and 2ndHD. And what it could be at 60W, and what happens after 10kHz?
I'm seriously asking...

Hi Anti K,

if talking about THD, 2nd harmonic of 10kHz is 20kHz, so I will not pay any attentions about that.
Be aware that 1W would produce over 110dB level of sound, so 10W would correspond to 120dB....have You any expectations
of such levels of sound over 10kHz. What would be the sound level in low or mid frequencies of such "music program".

Regards
ivica

macaroonie

02-27-2021, 03:26 AM

https://stageaccompany.com/products/ribboncd.html

Epplerd

02-27-2021, 10:50 AM

https://stageaccompany.com/products/ribboncd.html

These are not ribbon transducers in the true sense of the word. They are planar transducers with a flat voice coil fixed to a substrate. A ribbon tranducer comprises a thin, usually pleated length of aluminium foil suspended between to magnets. It is by its nature a very low impedance device. Several lengths can be summed in series to raise the resistance or a matching transformer can be used. Due to their low mass and large surface area (compared to a dome tweeter) they have a fast rise time and low coloration. They are also used with horn loading to improve max sound level. See Decca Kelly ribbon.

macaroonie

02-27-2021, 01:24 PM

Thanks for that. Whatever they are Stage Accompany seem to want to call them ribbons. No matter , the do fit with our Estonian friends' requirements , good efficiency ,power handling and FR extension out to 30k.
They might be worth investigating since he is setting quite a high bar with the other proposed components.

M

Footnote , Whether he can integrate them with the rest of his proposed system remains to be seen. I'm pretty sure that SA will be able to provide appropriate DSP settings given that they use these drivers in many of their high power high resolution systems.

And of course the Beyma

Beyma TPL-150 AMT

Anti K

03-02-2021, 12:27 AM

Thanks for that. Whatever they are Stage Accompany seem to want to call them ribbons.
And of course the Beyma
TPL-150 AMT

Thnx macaroonie. Beyma is on radar (graph I posted some time ago was also TPL-150).
Have problems with placement, Beyma 150 seems last one in terms of measures, I can integrate.
SA8535 is a savage for sure, the power handling etc. As my intention is use the ribbon at quite high region then maybe I'm not able to use the benefit of SA.
Directivity of ribbons is a problem, i'm working on it. And that's why plan to use them only at very high as well.
As Mr. Widget abtly mentioned, they are like 'small arrays'

HAVE 2 QUESTIONs

pos posted here , and others too, suggested use 2x2216Nd. Another just as a supportive for low.
The Everest: 2 woofers work in one chamber. One is 'supportive' at low end. Why? Does it messes when waves sum at up to 800Hz?
Today we have DSP and stuff like that.
- But, when midbass works at higher than 100Hz region (when supportive is 'idle') , doesn't the supportive act like passive radiator at some messy phase? Both share same chamber: doesn't one affects another?
(imho 4435 has separated chambers)
- And then, which one (of Everest) is the mid-low and which one the low. The left one, right one, the outer ones? Or doesnt' matter at so low FR like below 800Hz.
- When they move simultaneusly, movement's length drops 2X and piston has to move way easyer...

Mr. Widget , You had 66000 and 67000. They are huge.
Let imagine for a moment, You didn't have any aspect but just sound, (no accomondation questions, WAF, and You hasn't also need for 'beauty of doing'). Did You moved them out?
(though, probably Your TAD 10' mid outperforms in terms of clarity in You Mr.Widget Project the Everest in that region)
But specially I'm interested Your opinion about the huge wide lens - You opinion, please?

Robh3606

03-02-2021, 07:45 AM

The Everest: 2 woofers work in one chamber. One is 'supportive' at low end. Why? Does it messes when waves sum at up to 800Hz?

It's a 2 1/2 way so both woofers share the same range from say 200hz and lower. The 4435 is a single shared box just like Everest. You really don't need 2 2216's unless it's a huge space.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget

03-02-2021, 12:41 PM

I guess you’re asking how the large wide horn affects imaging? According to Greg Timbers the horn width is actually mostly aesthetic. The functioning part of the horn is maybe a third of the total size.

As far as how well the Everests image, they image better than many speakers, but not as holographically as the 1400 Array or the M2.

Widget

Kreativlos

03-02-2021, 01:00 PM

I would go the single woofer route unless your space is way beyond 50sqm... no need for two woofers, one is plenty enough for ear damaging sound levels. And ofc more moved air is better, but if that's the goal I would pick subs anytime.
Also I would think the 2 way solution without a (real) super tweeter is better for imaging and with a proper super tweeter details might be better. Nonetheless imaging quality is highly depending on the horn/waveguide so keep that in mind

Best regards

Anti K

03-02-2021, 02:29 PM

I would go the single woofer route unless your space is way beyond 50sqm...
Best regards

A'bit. About 10x more

Anti K

03-02-2021, 02:31 PM

Anti K

03-02-2021, 02:59 PM

Have heard here suggestions, there are better choices for mid than 2216Nd.

What choices I have? Please suggestions, who knows. New models, purchaseable, like 2216, 2269 etc,
(not very interested bargain at second hand market with Vintage stuff)

Some re-arrangements came in. I'm surprised even myself.
For HF goes the Radian 951Be and for low will probably play 2PCS of 2216Nd.

There is a possibility to add a MF - if it makes a sense, some (10) 12 inch.
What about 2262? Neo, Dual...

Kreativlos

03-03-2021, 03:11 AM

Well if your space is that big I would go full unfolded horn anyways. That's the king route if the space is there...

Anti K

03-09-2021, 04:17 PM

Shortly - how many octaves is suitable for driver?

Had to rearrange things.
There would be (per channel) 2PCS of 2269s as SUBs separately.

Main enlosures 2x2216 and 4''BeCD.
(Ok, some ribbon at top too, probably Beyma 150, not important now)

Does somebody used 2262H or knows about it?
2216 and 2262 seems to be same 'family', both 3'' VC DiffDrive. Though 2262 is mostly used in PA.
Tech note says it's replacement for 2206... like, quite high points!?
Stage-folks write, 2262 sounds bit warmer ... but they weld them as hell as well, too.

Basically, this 12inch is 2x lighter MMS and 1,7x smaller SQ , roughly than 2216Nd (like a 12" version 2216Nd?)
Is there a point to assemble it as MID below 4''BeCD?
(one more cross, one more amp)

- My concern is, if CD starts as low as 750Hz, it has to cover quite many octaves . If rise cross frequency , then: is the 2216 able go clean as high as 900...1000Hz?
- Another concern is, due to height limitations, I can assemble 2x2216 side-by-side (below horn). It means one will play wider range up to CD and another one parallel just low part (up to where?) ; both in same enclosure, it's weird for me (however it's done even in Everest like this).
Maybe better cross
300/900/12000
(2x2216 + 2262 + 4CD + Ribbon)
15inch does max 3 octaves , 4CD does bit less than 4 octaves. Or isn't it a topic nowadays anymore...?

From the other side, today we have opportunity purchase decent amp-blocks as much as we want, make active 48dB slopes just clicking on screen, play with delays...

Anti K

03-10-2021, 12:48 AM

Is it desecration of holiness?
Or - it's been a while. Now we can go fully active.
Have read, even JBL wanted make them 3-amp compatible and today also 476 is replaced, so... don't hit me too hard, folks...

grumpy

03-10-2021, 02:10 PM

What happens behind the grille cloth, stays behind the grille cloth? ;) Good luck with that here.

I seem to recall Greg (at one point) had his system set up with 4 separate amps (one OEM/Pascal per woofer, Jadis on mids, and a 'vintage' integrated running the tweeter... that last part seemed to be almost a point of pride in being both good -and- sufficient).

It's only wood and a baffle board... If you change your mind later. Give yourself some modification space/options with the bracing.

Anti K

03-10-2021, 03:01 PM

Something happened:
I got a oportunity purchase E original cabinets :confused:
Last ones came out from EU factory. Was an auction years ago and now somehow a pair landed in my room.

Remember when I first time looked the pictures of these Everests, I was shocked because of the aestetics!
The logic! Round backwall eliminating standing waves, round frontwalls as well in role of horn.
I know, M2 lens today does probably better but...

This purchase messed up my plans. Or, Universe made some 'corretions'.

Now I'm scraching my head what 'will stay behind the grill'. Or, like You said, some 'wood and baffle board' just changed a bit:
Tall Monsters transformed to Wide Monsters.
Easyest way (and imho not bad at all) is probably use 2x2216ND. And 4''Be of cause.
And add some SUB18 into DIY 'furniture'.
Not as much for make a crazy noise but because of separate bandwidth by intended drivers. Room is big too.

Anti K

03-10-2021, 03:39 PM

Give yourself some modification space/options with the bracing

I basically have excellent oportunity nominate as stupidest design.
Add a MID as 2262 in the middle there and later (if 2216 outperforms it) - fully active - 'tune' it mute...

one OEM/Pascal per woofer, Jadis on mids, and a 'vintage' integrated running the tweeter

... mmm, the 4'' CD has +110dB sensi at listenable area, yes You are damn right, some tube can run it with ease :) :)
Some 8000W peak DIY 'furniture', some 0,000%THD Eigentakt for Mid and some Tube for Beryllium; I think it's time to take my pills now...

macaroonie

03-17-2021, 03:04 PM

Am I reading you correctly that you managed to get a pair of empty E cabs DD66000
that came from the Hornslet factory in DK. WOW

Got any pictures for the people in the good seats ?

Anti K

03-19-2021, 09:40 AM

any pictures for the people in the good seats ?

I like that sports too. Sittin' & Watchin'

' for the people in good seats ! ' :)

macaroonie

03-19-2021, 12:38 PM

Here's the original wind up of Hornslet for anyone who didn't see it at that time.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?36169-Check-this-out!-original-everest-and-K2-cabinets-from-the-factory-in-denmark!&highlight=Hornslet

So Anti , what's your plan for these ?

Anti K

03-19-2021, 03:55 PM

So Anti , what's your plan for these ?

Very shortly: make them play.

Secondly, do it with respect and carefully because I admire so much the wise built and shape of these. The most beautiful speakers to my eyes.

Third, the wood needs repaire works anyway, so basically is same work to glue there new, or Walnut or Wenge or Teak - or, I have easy access to 'Rolls-Grade' paintwork; most probably they get gloss-paint-finish in the future.

But foremost, before I start anything, there is one crazy idea I do not want to split it out until I'm sure it works. It takes some time and work and measurements.

Do not go 1:1 clones. But do not want to make them ugly and naive as well...

Here is a interesting pal in Norway, made 2 pairs of Everests, firstly clones and second ones active. And then started add pair of 18'' subs because low end didn't hit enough...
Well, sure, what to expect from 4x15''. Weak, sure!
https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/threads/terjes-wall-of-sound.62948/page-6

Anti K

03-19-2021, 04:29 PM

Have heard here suggestions, there are better choices for mid than 2216Nd.

What choices I have? Please suggestions, who knows.

Meanwhile. I repeat my question. Got suggestions to think about better Mid-Opportunities than 2216Nd.
(yes, there is a point - a 140 gram cone is maybe too heavy for nearly 1000Hz)

Please, examples.
2262?
2169?

Both have same new motor structure. For 2262 is some info out there but for 2169 cannot find anything.

In other words, if recreate 4350 with less footprint.

Ian Mackenzie

03-19-2021, 07:17 PM

Meanwhile. I repeat my question. Got suggestions to think about better Mid-Opportunities than 2216Nd.
(yes, there is a point - a 140 gram cone is maybe too heavy for nearly 1000Hz)

Please, examples.
2262?
2169?

Both have same new motor structure. For 2262 is some info out there but for 2169 cannot find anything.

In other words, if recreate 4350 with less footprint.

There isn’t a better woofer than the 2216 provided you understand how to use it

Maximum crossover frequency 750 hertz.

So mate it with a 1.5 or 2 inch compression driver and a horn with loading to 650 hertz or below.

Mating a driver to a higher cut off frequency horn won’t work subjectively. It just wont work.

Either a Yuichi or Joseph Crowe 650 hertz horn and you are done.

If you want a 1500 crossover point think 2123 10 inch mid cone and an extended bass woofer like a 2245 or dual 2235H drivers. The 2216 would be wasted in that situation.

If you check out the vintage Westlake monitors that is exactly what they did.

But you need a reasonable size room.

18Sound do a nice elliptical horn and a one inch compression driver which is very nice. Trolls in Europe did a nice monitor along those lines.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/The-Loudspeaker.htm

Anti K

03-20-2021, 04:48 AM

There isn’t a better woofer than the 2216 provided you understand how to use it

Maximum crossover frequency 750 hertz.

So mate it with a 1.5 or 2 inch compression driver and a horn with loading to 650 hertz or below.

Thanks! I feel I already looking a'bit that way, too...

Please advise - Your opinion. Below is 4367 graph - shortly, just ugly in mid-region.
Of cause, if active, it's not a question to EQ these drops.

/ I'm confused about D2430 driver, how bad they measure raw, without EQ.
It's like low end - when there is no capabilities, You can rise actively as much as You want, it its not capable...
it's like the story: You can feed the wolf as you want, bear's d*** is bigger anyway. /

How You feel, is that drop of 4367 becuse of 2216Nd-1 (not 2216Nd), or because of HF D2430 (not a smooth 4inch CD), or why? Just Your subjective thoughts.
I'm gathering this 'puzzle' together in my head.

When old-school, passive, then basically we 'pushed' all down to the lowest sensi part of whole system; then we got nice graph. By reduce.
Now, active, if some driver has -6dB drop, nobody starts to 'push down' all bandwith. Despite, we rise this driver's this region 6dB = kick in 2X more energy! And good, if the drop is only 6dB, not 12... and we ask, why this thing doesn't sound not as effortlessly and so on..

And one more thing: You name old-good 2123 mid cone.
What about newer designs 2262 , 2250, 2169 ?

macaroonie

03-20-2021, 06:26 AM

Just a suggestion , JBL 2206H for your mid. Very nice flat response where you need it.

https://jblpro.com/en-US/site_elements/2206h-j-data-sheet

pos

03-20-2021, 07:18 AM

Anti K, using a lowmid can be rewarding, but it is pretty difficult to setup correctly, especially the crossover with the woofer(s).
3-ways are specially tricky to get right when it comes to phase tracking.

Here are a few points to consider when choosing such a driver:
- choose the diameter based on the directivity and crossover frequency with the horn
- choose the highest sensitivity driver that still has enough excursion to go down to the woofer crossover at your target SPL and distortion.
- choose a cone that does not show any major breakup artifacts up to 1/2 oct above your horn crossover (more or less, depending on the slope there)
- choose a good modern motor *or*, better still, use a current drive amp (transconductance) to reduce distortion in the mids

Robh3606

03-20-2021, 08:23 AM

Mr. Widget

03-20-2021, 10:36 AM

Anti K, using a lowmid can be rewarding, but it is pretty difficult to setup correctly, especially the crossover with the woofer(s).
3-ways are specially tricky to get right when it comes to phase tracking.

There is a reason JBL abandoned the 4 way in the studio decades ago.
I'll add my two cents here.

Adding additional drivers (three-way, four-way) makes it virtually impossible to design passive or analog active crossovers that will result in phase response, polar response and even on axis response (at the higher frequencies) that look good on paper.

As most of us know; a single full range driver is ideal, but beyond the use in headphones a full range driver is not practical due to a number of physical properties. This leads us to a two-way, or a three-way, or more... all of these are compromises.

I have experimented with all of the above. I have used full range drivers, augmented full range drivers, six foot tall electrostatic panels, multi-way cone and dome systems with DSP, with stepped baffles, and all had their strengths and their issues. At the end of this road, I have ended up with a four-way system with compression drivers up top. From an idealized perspective they are awful. They measure poorly in terms of phase response, and are not the most linear on axis or from a polar perspective... but I like them.

Beyond my liking them, which is the most important thing for the pair at my house, I have built two identical sets of these speakers. Over the years hundreds of people have heard the speakers. Average listeners, industry experts, and audio professionals have all heard the speakers and for the most part, the consensus is that the compromises made in the design are worthwhile.

The bottom line is that while spinorama, step response, waterfall plots, and basic frequency response plots are all extremely useful design tools, at the end of the day the speaker will either be pleasing or it won't be. My advice is to try to follow the best practices guidelines, and then choose your compromises based on your needs.

Widget

Ian Mackenzie

03-20-2021, 12:37 PM

Thanks! I feel I already looking a'bit that way, too...

Please advise - Your opinion. Below is 4367 graph - shortly, just ugly in mid-region.
Of cause, if active, it's not a question to EQ these drops.

/ I'm confused about D2430 driver, how bad they measure raw, without EQ.
It's like low end - when there is no capabilities, You can rise actively as much as You want, it its not capable...
it's like the story: You can feed the wolf as you want, bear's d*** is bigger anyway. /

How You feel, is that drop of 4367 becuse of 2216Nd-1 (not 2216Nd), or because of HF D2430 (not a smooth 4inch CD), or why? Just Your subjective thoughts.
I'm gathering this 'puzzle' together in my head.

When old-school, passive, then basically we 'pushed' all down to the lowest sensi part of whole system; then we got nice graph. By reduce.
Now, active, if some driver has -6dB drop, nobody starts to 'push down' all bandwith. Despite, we rise this driver's this region 6dB = kick in 2X more energy! And good, if the drop is only 6dB, not 12... and we ask, why this thing doesn't sound not as effortlessly and so on..

And one more thing: You name old-good 2123 mid cone.
What about newer designs 2262 , 2250, 2169 ?

Your over thinking it in your head at this point.

It’s a trap to idealise the end result based on measurement or selection of drivers of another design.

Things like the measurement technique, the baffle size, driver layout are all sensitive to the midrange response. Your own physical design will be different so don’t worry about those details at this stage.

In a commercial product the actual published curves are magazine curves to make the consumer feel good. The design is ultimately a set of complimentary compromises in terms of cost, complexity, industrial design. The result in a consumers home is a lot less predictable than a pro recoding studio and this is why you need to set up your project to deliver a subjective result that you are looking for in your own room.

How it all hangs together is not something you can predict on paper. Some of the best most technically correct designs don’t always work out.

Getting it together is going to take some work and a lot of perseverance on your part.

Subjectively its not about a particular aspect of a driver but well it voices overall with actual
program material you are familiar with.

The dynamic attributes of a loudspeaker are not something you can determine from a frequency response graph.

In the diy space audio amateurs often buy used drivers and unfortunately these drivers are not necessarily in best working condition. They hear that and become dismayed because they don’t know what’s wrong?

I would tend to start off with a simple set up if starting from scratch and learn grow with it.

Classic woofers like to Great Plains Audio 416 are likely to put a smile on your face more quickly than some of the Jbl drivers which require some work to get a worth result This is because Jbl often takes a driver from one application and to make it work in another application they pay specific attention to the voltage drive of the crossover network. As an audio amateur you won’t know that unless you are familiar with that particular driver. Then you need specific skills and measurement equipment to figure it out like Rob did with his passive monitor project.

https://greatplainsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Classic-Series-416-8B-Spec-Sheet.pdf

I have already mentioned the Joseph Crowe radial horns. Joseph can custom design the horn for a particular driver throat. These are next generation Tad horns. He can advise you on a driver as well.

And Jbl are conscious that the hifi loudspeaker market is not ready to accept a full dsp loudspeaker at this stage. A few players have put a toe in the water like Elac and Dynaudio. The industry mafia simply won’t let it happen because of the impact on other parts of the business.

Anti K

03-20-2021, 03:53 PM

What we do here, if we DIY:
- we clone, or
- some saw some veneer when they get bored, and kick randomly some drivers in there, no finish (thats the lifestyle, OK, Peace), and then comment (what's the value of these comments - how to saw?)
- some know, the speakers in sales are all for business = one more compromise component, money. DIY often do not have to think about that.
Not because a lot of money (!) but because we do not have intention to sell them!
Another $500 driver is not a deal-breaker beacuse there is not a deal at all. Just one thing - does it improve things (potentially).

There are DSPs, dead-silent ncore and eigentakt amps modules (each driver gets personal block).
I did lot passive different systems and I'm tired of this. F*** tired. Do what you want, there is ALWAYS some BUT. Then, srewdrivers, iron, kick off all sofas, floor is full of s**t. Cords everywhere. Familiar? Listening room (often living room) is like old attic. And then You and Your relatives (if they didn't left You yet) have to live with that.
DO NOT LIKE THIS!
Was about 10y away from this because I mess up with another el.magnetic waves... for business.

Now is 2021.
I'll pick up potential NEW drivers (even do not listen them, what it gives me if I listen widely respected 2216Nd RAW), put together a nice puch of furniture and amps, switch and hide all cords.
AND THEN!
I sit down into comfy sofa, open my laptop, click deep slopes, not so deep slopes, delays and ... wirelessly, even every Friday evening if I want...
Anno 2021.

Your over thinking it in your head at this point.
In a commercial product the actual published curves are magazine curves to make the consumer feel good.

In the diy space audio amateurs often buy used drivers and unfortunately these drivers are not necessarily in best working condition.

And Jbl are conscious that the hifi loudspeaker market is not ready to accept a full dsp loudspeaker at this stage. A few players have put a toe in the water like Elac and Dynaudio. The industry mafia simply won’t let it happen because of the impact on other parts of the business

These are good comments!

I do not overthink. I just thin about one cone, left in my 'puzzle'.
Just one driver - Between crazy light Beryllium CD and huge 140 gram moving mass cone(s). Is there a point?

MrWidget made a 'very bad' 4-way; didn't just pair his very capable TAD_BE_CD with some 15'' bass and done.

Anti K, using a lowmid can be rewarding
Thanks! Finally!

3-ways are specially tricky to get right when it comes to phase tracking.
Yep. Considering a 4-way then... :)

I have both my passive M2 Horn 2216nd 476Mg system and my original 4 way mains in my HT system.
Subjectively they are very similar

You didn't consider first one is basically top-notch components/lens ; another feature way older parts, but active, so, what we compare?

As most of us know; a single full range driver is ideal

I've tried to figure out what the fans are find in there. OK, if You listen only (ONLY) a 'girl with quitar', while girl is mostly mute...better both.
There are brand new dead-silent amp-modules out there. Fullrange - seems to me - is a perfect choice to liten this complete silence IMHO
(Yes, I know all the phase theories and things behind...)
:)

I have ended up with a four-way system with compression drivers up top. From an idealized perspective they are awful.

:p
And how it was possible? Answer is quite simple. Because top-notch drivers. Am I right?
My theory is (sorry: look who's talking, two who...) that THESE drivers (I know now which ones) are able cover each other at quite wide area... and there was possibility to find out the subjectively best compromised points for cross.

pos

03-20-2021, 04:34 PM

Thanks! Finally!keep in mind the 2216 is tough to beat though...

Yep. Considering a 4-way then... :)I guess that is a joke? :D
Adding a tweeter around 10kHz is easy, and you don't really care about phase coherency there as it is a lost cause anyway (nor is it a problem either, really).
But of course, it is in no way easier than a 3-way.
The hard part is the woofer to mid crossover in the 200-400Hz range: that range is tricky to measure with enough resolution and reliability, is not very forgiving (LF of vocals), and often interacts badly with the baffle size as well as the distance from the ground...

Good luck :)

Anti K

03-20-2021, 05:38 PM

keep in mind the 2216 is tough to beat though...
The hard part is the woofer to mid crossover in the 200-400Hz range:

Good luck :)
Thanks!

I do not want beat 2216
(knowing reputation of M2 is even bit weird to talk about that for me)
but slide aside 2216 something with same motor (tough to beat!) but way lighter moving mass cone. This name is 2262.

I read Horn-Heads dispute: Whaaat, this driver has 42gram moving mass, did You really think this heavy brick is some kind a MID!?
(tey argued some 10'' driver)
And we talk about here 140gram cones :) pushing them as high as 700Hz...900Hz
(both 2216 and 1500AL weight)

We can find phase coherency point and make a cross there. But phase changes while low goes higher and mid goes lower. As we know.
So, theoretically, smalller the overlap, smaller the problem?
What about 96db/oct slope?

Anti K

03-20-2021, 05:50 PM

I have just one question:

Did here, in the LH forum, the biggest community on planet of JBL nerds, somebody who messed around with
2169
2250
2262

?

pos

03-20-2021, 06:33 PM

And we talk about here 140gram cones :) pushing them as high as 700Hz...900HzOther things being equal, a higher cone mass simply means a lower mass breakpoint frequency.
I doubt this is the only factor to consider when going from a 2216 to a 2262.
The 15" variant of the 2262 is the 2265 by the way. Same motor, but different VC and cone compared to the 2216.

We can find phase coherency point and make a cross there. But phase changes while low goes higher and mid goes lower. As we know.
So, theoretically, smalller the overlap, smaller the problem?
What about 96db/oct slope?Phase coherency at and around the crossover point is paramount, there is no way around it if you want decent results.
Hiding summation errors with steep slopes is a recipe for disaster.

Mr. Widget

03-20-2021, 08:11 PM

:p
And how it was possible? Answer is quite simple. Because top-notch drivers. Am I right?
My theory is (sorry: look who's talking, two who...) that THESE drivers (I know now which ones) are able cover each other at quite wide area... and there was possibility to find out the subjectively best compromised points for cross.Top notch drivers certainly helped and some have fairly wide usable frequency response, but as POS points out, picking the drivers that allowed me to pick more forgiving crossover points was also part of the design.

I experimented with a variety of JBL, TAD, PHL, and other woofers and drivers, and played with different alignments and crossover frequencies. Ultimately I landed on a 75Hz crossover, a 750Hz crossover, and a 12KHz crossover. The crossover between the 10" woofer and the compression driver is the fussiest, but I feel I was able to make it work.

Widget

Kreativlos

03-21-2021, 02:34 PM

Ian Mackenzie

03-21-2021, 03:32 PM

the most important thing is to plan the speaker properly before you build it...
Consider what are the specifications you need and with what compromises can you get along
Afterwards you make your choices and think of a 2,3 or 4 way. Then you ask, which drivers could get the job done best in the considered frequency range and from there the planning can go on. Imo best would be to start with prototyping at that point...
Good luck, wish you the best with the project

Best regards

Post 71 sums it up.

The idea of coming up with a sensible diy system using best of class driver (available) in a modular format is going to be a more fulfilling audio amateurs journey than a painfully difficult attempt at an exact clone.

When l was in HK in 2019 l visited several local audio amateurs who had over a long period of time built larger than life diy systems. One was in a large photo shoot studio. The guy has changed his mind several times over the years with different configurations using Tad, JBL and other exotic drivers.
There were two 15 inch woofer per side.

But the thing is he was having a lot more fun than the guys who were tearing their hair out trying to accommodate the DD67000’s in less than ideal environments for practice reasons. They were at the point of blaming the design but frankly it was the circumstances and the belief that because it was the best Jbl system that’s how it should sound. Not so unfortunately.

The notion of making a clone or attempting a variation ramps up the risk considerably.

Giving yourself some flexibility and scope for change is far better approach.

Even Greg is busy with diy enclosures and horns to work in with his HT surround system.

ivica

03-22-2021, 09:28 AM

.......
The 15" variant of the 2262 is the 2265 by the way. Same motor, but different VC and cone comparedto the 2216.

........

Hi POS,

Have You any more info about the VC differences between 2265 VC and 2216ND VC ?

Regards,
Ivica

Ian Mackenzie

03-22-2021, 02:42 PM

https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-5047951x-model-728g-8-woofer-for-lsr708i/

I would be looking to evaluate this 8 inch driver used in the 708 studio monitors.

According to Jbl engineers the motor has additional components for reduced distortion and extended cone excursion for a monitor application. It’s available which is a key thing. Given availability of high power ncore power amplifiers the relative efficiency of these drivers can balanced out. It could be used as a mid bass or midrange driver in a system with the LF augmented by a subwoofer and have a bandwidth up to 1.8khertz.

250+250 watts focused in the mid bass is ample for domestic situations where sound clarity is the primary goal over very high sound levels demanded in the Vertec systems.

That provides flexibility for smaller horns or wave guides and the physical layout more stealth which is generally a less complicated loudspeaker implementations for diy.

The other consideration is has the user assessed the space and location with any loudspeakers at this stage? With the typical surfaces in a domestic dwelling the reflected sound and the length of the building may demand a relatively closer listening distance to reduce interference masking the direct radiated sound to the listening position. The curtains won’t necessarily provide a low enough noise floor from interference caused by longer time reflections. This will reduce the spatial clarity of the system considerably and defeat the purpose of high quality playback. I recommend to conduct some tests before proceeding.

Anti K

03-22-2021, 04:02 PM

GT's old 2123
10 inch / 101dB / 25gram MMS / 250W / 3inch VC
cannot find anything close ... or isn't just

Ian Mackenzie

03-22-2021, 04:24 PM

You have got to be careful how you crossover this driver.

It has a bump in the response around 1000 hertz that must be reduced in combination with the low pass crossover.

The point is it’s far from plug and play getting the blending with the horn and the woofer right. A PA stack attitude to crossover points will give you a Wall Of Sound if that’s what you want but nothing like what these drivers are capable of as a system. A lot of the tuning is trial and error. Not just measurements or an auto dsp program. To that end the effort put into making it work out weighs the time spent thinking and dreaming up the ideal drivers. It can take a long time. Years in complex systems.

macaroonie

03-22-2021, 06:38 PM

GT's old 2123
10 inch / 101dB / 25gram MMS / 250W / 3inch VC
cannot find anything close ... or isn't just

Get in touch with our esteemed member Edgewound , he should be able to construct a pair for you.
As new to you from his workbench.

JeffW

03-23-2021, 06:28 AM

Analysis Paralysis, don't let it derail your project.

Anti K

03-23-2021, 02:41 PM

Thanks all for advises.
I'm fortunately busy for a while with lenses for these DD66000 cabs.
Hope things settle down (in my head) while the time I'm busy.

One thing seems to be almost OK, 15s would be 2216Nd as JeffW also pointed they are in sales/production etc! And didn't heard any bad word in that forum, vice-versa only praises while decent setup. POS sayd they are hard to beat. If something goes wrong with these then it could be just because of me...
macaroonie, thanks for hint.

One think want to ask (hope comparison is OK, TAD drivers 1601 and 4001 are not toys):
But question is pros and cons of different switching of woofers (who knows, knows)
Keepeing in mind I'll add 2269s for lows additionally and 15inches will be 'free of charge' of the most horrible lowest, if that matters. I think it matters.

One picture says more than thousand worlds:

pos

03-23-2021, 03:14 PM

Have You any more info about the VC differences between 2265 VC and 2216ND VC ?
Hi Ivica,
No info, sorry. I assume it is not TCR but I might as well be wrong given the lack of public info on the subject.

pos

03-23-2021, 03:37 PM

One picture says more than thousand worlds:
The TAD and JBL are very different animals despite the visual similarities.

In the TAD 2401 both 15" play together up to 650Hz, whereas in the JBL DD66000 only one woofer goes up to the 700Hz crossover.
As a consequence the directivity of the JBL is much larger in the 300Hz-700Hz range, and similar to a single 15" loudspeaker.

This is still a compromise though: the woofer that plays the mids is not vertically aligned with the horn, contrary to the 4435 for example.
That is not really a problem at the intended listening distance, but still a technical compromise.

Using a mid woofer vertically centered with the horn as per your previous sketch would solve that particular problem, but would also introduce many other compromises. Potentially much more harmful ones.
With such big speakers, intended to be used from a respectable distance, the smoothness of the power response is very important, much more so than the "compactness" of the source.
The more drivers you add the more difficult it is to get the power response smooth.
Getting the on-axis response flat is fairly easy in an active setup, but the fun begins off-axis :D

Kreativlos

03-23-2021, 05:41 PM

Thanks all for advises.

Keepeing in mind I'll add 2269s

And why do you insist on 15 inch mid woofers then? They're far from ideal for the purpose of 70 hz to 700 hz... for that task a small midrange driver horn loaded can do the job or a 10 inch JBL in a closed box...

Anti K

03-24-2021, 12:08 AM

The TAD and JBL are very different animals despite the visual similarities.

In the TAD 2401 both 15" play together up to 650Hz, whereas in the JBL DD66000 only one woofer goes up to the 700Hz crossover.
As a consequence the directivity of the JBL is much larger in the 300Hz-700Hz range, and similar to a single 15" loudspeaker.

This is still a compromise though: the woofer that plays the mids is not vertically aligned with the horn

/ ... /

Using a mid woofer vertically centered with the horn as per your previous sketch would solve that particular problem

Now WE get there ! :)

I tried to explain and explain but one picture made it clear instantly.
Of cause I know Tad and DD are different anymals and 2xLF act by different philosophy. Which me personally is un-undestandable (directly saying should make one more sophistication, if not error) and thats why I drafted this 10'' mid in the middle there.

Considering move the MID from EXACT centre a bit sideways.
- eliminate mess a bit caused by identical reflections from cab faceplate
(or maybe helps cover the 'face' of baffle with some ugly dampener, just drivers 'look out'). Grill hides all anyway.
- To accommondate somewhere a big Ribbon, able make about 100dB sensi from 12+ kHz
Do not want to violate the aesthetics of upper horn.

Anti K

03-24-2021, 12:31 AM

And why do you insist on 15 inch mid woofers then? They're far from ideal for the purpose of 70 hz to 700 hz... for that task a small midrange driver horn loaded can do the job or a 10 inch JBL in a closed box...

One 'prosaic' reason is, I have DD66000 cabinets and they are like hungry for pair of 15 inch.

Another, more serious explanation is - if You put now the puzzle together:
Take a very good 8-10'' MID (because, what's a point to take a bad one?) and if it's really good MID, a bright fast one, it has:
extremely lightweight cone, Fs somewhere 80+Hz, around 100dB sensitivity. And it drops certainly below somewhere about 300Hz. Which, in theory, is a very good point to make a crossover.
If now take 18" savages, shakes your ears, your sofa, floor even, it is not able articulate at 300Hz. Because form 20 to 80Hz is already 2 octaves and these are most energy-hungry. There would be a insane magnetic field across the VC and if durin this 'session' insert to same VC some higher frequencies, it just 'ignores'.
Bear doesn't dance.
(even vintage freezer-size JBL monitors have bi-amp terminals backside, where is clearly written : if be-amp, cross actively at 290Hz)

Another thing is (f*** me) I have DD66000 emty cabinets and it would be just easy as Sunday Morning, assemble there JBL 15'' woofers. They fit into existing holes with precise as 0,5mm ( 10/508 inch - OMG Americans, my condolences :) )
But I have 'a barn' literally, as MrWidget named.

ivica

03-24-2021, 11:48 AM

One 'prosaic' reason is, I have DD66000 cabinets and they are like hungry for pair of 15 inch.

Another, more serious explanation is - if You put now the puzzle together:
Take a very good 8-10'' MID (because, what's a point to take a bad one?) and if it's really good MID, a bright fast one, it has:
extremely lightweight cone, Fs somewhere 80+Hz, around 100dB sensitivity. And it drops certainly below somewhere about 300Hz. Which, in theory, is a very good point to make a crossover.
If now take 18" savages, shakes your ears, your sofa, floor even, it is not able articulate at 300Hz. Because form 20 to 80Hz is already 2 octaves and these are most energy-hungry. There would be a insane magnetic field across the VC and if durin this 'session' insert to same VC some higher frequencies, it just 'ignores'.
Bear doesn't dance.
(even vintage freezer-size JBL monitors have bi-amp terminals backside, where is clearly written : if be-amp, cross actively at 290Hz)

Another thing is (f*** me) I have DD66000 emty cabinets and it would be just easy as Sunday Morning, assemble there JBL 15'' woofers. They fit into existing holes with precise as 0,5mm ( 10/508 inch - OMG Americans, my condolences :) )
But I have 'a barn' literally, as MrWidget named.

Hi Anti K,

I do not think that You would any needs to introduce 10" (or 12") mid-bass drivers if using JBL 2216ND or 2216ND-1 in Your DD66k cabinets.
Much greater problem would be to get good 476Be drivers to be used with the Dd66k horns.

About some low bass with DD66k....You can find something
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34672-Sub-for-Everest-DD66000&p=367950&viewfull=1#post367950
https://jblpro.com/en/products/5628

and the photo
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34672-Sub-for-Everest-DD66000&p=367259&viewfull=1#post367259

or contact our forum member Henrik, DynaMax (www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk) ) as he has some experience with 4x2269 as low-bass support for DD66k speakers

Regards
Ivicca

(http://www.dynamax.dk)

Anti K

03-26-2021, 12:50 AM

ivica

03-26-2021, 08:15 AM

Hi ivica

2216Nd is a excellent driver for sure, for 2-way.
It's not a question what this driver is able to.
It's a question what I am able to (or not).

As seen my previous sketches of Veneered Monsters, planned a 2216Nd vertically aligned below the horn (with large format CD).
I like 2-way concept and it's life-like sound, cross below human ears most sensitive area, somewhere around 700Hz.

With adding 'tiny' exceptions: some supportives to both ends.
Also, same philosophy: highs where ear is bearly able to , and from other end, where ear is not able to listen the direction.

Now (became a happy owner of Everest cabinets) changed
- vertical alignement (and sooo much) of HF-MF; I'm not familiar with that, never done before
- why is 'faceplate' broken into two fractions, is it for acoustics or for design
- the up-to-mid are the outer ones or inner ones?
- where to cut off the supportive, second woofer (I'd like to cut bit higher looking on graph of 2216Nd, to rise systems sensitivity)
- while using MID in the middle, sensitivity would be 100dB with ease (and so easy rises max SPL - I have a 'barn' not a living room with nervous neighbors)

And one more thing: I do not have mister Greg Timbers here neighborhood to ask advise :D

Hi Anti K,

As You will apply low-bass drivers (2269 mentioned), so You can put both 2216ND to work (in-parallel) so You can get +6dB in the sensitivity, so reaching over 100dB/2.8V. On the other side compression diver would be operating in its maximal level. You can see the THD data presented with JBL 2380 or PTH-95HF horns, so I think that drivers like JBL 2451 or 2447 can be used as "large horn loaded drivers, and over 10kHz D2430k, JBL 2408 driver can be used but proper horn for it would be a problem, if large off-axis dispersion in UHF region is "a must", may be even TWO UHF DRIVERS have to be used per each speaker box, I think (see Vertec VT4887A). Producing UHF frequency over 100dB/2,8V, wide off-axis spreadeagled, without large THD is very difficult to get.

Regards
Ivica

sebackman

03-27-2021, 04:44 AM

Anti,

There has been many good advise in this thread. You seem to want to go you own way and create "your " speaker as many of us have done. Good for you.

When you embark on that route there is really little advise "we" can give as we have not tried "your" configuration. We can support with experiences on certain drivers and on them i certain constructions (non factory) but how they would work in "your" system is impossible to predict. Remember you are not building a speaker your are building a system where all components interact. Or you can opt to just build a speaker to make life simpler.

An alternative, given you have two DD66000 cabinets, could be to get 4pcs 2216Nd or if you can find 4pcs 1500/1501AL and get the wave guide from 4367. It has a similar sound to M2 but may fit in your DD66000 cabinets which the M2 would not.

You could then use the D2 driver and just make your own 4367 passive filters or go active using the M2 settings as basis. Or you can get a nice pair of 2451/476 drivers and install a new SL diaphragm.

Many have stated that a 2-way system is easier to get "right" so a 2-way DD66067 might be a good combo.

And yes, the 4367 WG is available.

//Rob

macaroonie

03-27-2021, 12:57 PM

^^^^ He said with a 4 way in his avatar :p

macaroonie

03-27-2021, 02:06 PM

This is what I would do. You can throw stones later.

I'd go with the 2 x 2216.

I'd turn the box upside down leaving space above the 2 bass drivers to acommodate a 10 or a 12 , prob a 10
This would require some gentle carpentry to make a flat baffle. With a narrow band , maybe 400 -1000 the dog box need not be huge.
Here's the slightly more complicated part , extend the flares up the way as required to take the lips as per the original. Somewhere you have to doff the hat to the designer and to the great woodworkers at Hornslet in DK.
Super tweet IMO would be better between the 10 and the horn , if not then in the usual place above the lips.

Subs below 65 if he needs them , which I doubt.

If none if this is ok then join the queue for a Function 1 setup , coz thats really the next step up

Anti K

03-27-2021, 04:03 PM

macaroonie, after Your post I just have to replay one of my previous attachements :)
(actually, I went bit further but let it be at moment)
And thanks one more time for PS hint!

Rob, guess why the Lens-part is (was) hidden yet ;)
And it's very nice from You to be concerned how I'll manage crossover, passive, active, analog, paralog, whateverlog.
I just love and do this carpentry-work, as macaroonie sayd, gently.
(only HF and UHF get some caps and thats it)
Cuprum sausages come out from the box and every driver (actually way) gets his own amp.
And then there is some mechatronics works (familiar too) , assembling N-cores and Eigentakts into enclosures made from nice fat brushed aluminium.
I LOVE THIS JOB!
(I do similar basically every day)

And AFTER that I have freedom cross them or IIR or FIR

ivica, I do not see the point assemble TX dia into old 2451 core. There are new Berylliums with 5-split phase plug out there, at least same level as 476.

macaroonie

03-27-2021, 05:17 PM

Anti , this is an exciting AND challenging project. I suppose what you are attempting is a modern 4350 , in a nice box.
You biggest challenge of course will be to make that barn behave. From the pictures there is a lot of glass and hard floor. Lots to do there to make it good.
I'm certain you will make it happen.;)

Robh3606

03-27-2021, 06:17 PM

ivica

03-28-2021, 01:05 AM

macaroonie, after Your post I just have to replay one of my previous attachements :)
(actually, I went bit further but let it be at moment)
And thanks one more time for PS hint!
...............
ivica, I do not see the point assemble TX dia into old 2451 core. There are new Berylliums with 5-split phase plug out there, at least same level as 476.

Hi Anti K,

I have no idea what type of the driver is in Your mind, and what kind of Be diaphragm is installed into it, but if it is the same as JBL 476Be, then everything is OK. Using Be with not Be- suspension would not produce the same results as JBL BE.

Regrads
ivica

Anti K

03-28-2021, 03:04 AM

ivica

03-28-2021, 10:57 AM

Hi Anti K,

I think that You have to forget solution with mid-bass driver, and to put dual 2216nd to work 'in-paralleled', up to about 1kHz, as their THD in the region 100Hz to 1kHz is almost under 45dB while 115dB SPL level is applied. As their front panels are 'angled' so that would enhance horizontal plane dispersion. It would be expect-able to reach 100dB/1m SPL applying 2.8V. So on DD66K horn good 1.5" compression driver has to be applied and UHF very deficient [ like old JBL 2402, 2405, 2404 ] has to be applied over 10kHz. Do not forget that CD horn VHF driver compensation ( about +6dB/octave 'shelf' filter) has to be applied (I would expect about +10dB rise), so to operate on lower THD region proper compression driver would very important, not to mention UHF driver(s).
On attached figure from the JBL TN.no.31_vol.1 is THD shown with CD horn compensation.

Regards
Ivica

pos

03-28-2021, 02:58 PM

I think that You have to forget solution with mid-bass driver, and to put dual 2216nd to work 'in-paralleled', up to about 1kHz
Polars would be horrid, angled baffle or not

Mr. Widget

03-28-2021, 04:41 PM

Polars would be horrid, angled baffle or not :yes:

Why not use a pair of 2216-Nd in the box as is and try it with the original DD66000/DD67000/4435 helper woofer scenario? You can also build a small test box for your 10"/12" mid bass driver, set it up top centered above the horn. You could then field test both arrangements and see which you prefer.

If you prefer the 4-way, then build a new baffle that pops out enough to give you the needed cu ft and room for the mid bass. I think you will be happy with the 2216-Nd plus 2216-Nd helper with no mid bass driver.

Widget

ivica

03-28-2021, 11:34 PM

Polars would be horrid, angled baffle or not

Hi POS,

I have to agree with You. But having two drivers in angled baffle may be can help, especially if separately driven with the DSP support.

Regards
Ivica

Riley Casey

03-29-2021, 07:02 AM

Why give up on a cone midrange? A ten inch or so cone mid driver would allow the crossover point to move up to 1k2 -1k5 and allow the choice of a 1" or 1.5" high frequency driver that would provide good response to very close to 20k. A good three way solution.

Hi Anti K,

I think that You have to forget solution with mid-bass driver, ...

Regards
Ivica

ivica

03-29-2021, 08:25 AM

Why give up on a cone midrange? A ten inch or so cone mid driver would allow the crossover point to move up to 1k2 -1k5 and allow the choice of a 1" or 1.5" high frequency driver that would provide good response to very close to 20k. A good three way solution.

HI Riley Casey,

If operation over 110dB/1m SPL with low THD is expect-able, then 10" driver without horn loading would have some problem, I think.

Regards
Ivica

Robh3606

03-29-2021, 09:23 AM

HI Riley Casey,

If operation over 110dB/1m SPL with low THD is expect-able, then 10" driver without horn loading would have some problem, I think.

Regards
Ivica

Not really a 2123 could do that all day. It's 100db 1 watt and can handle 250 watts.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/2-horns.html

Rob:)

ivica

03-29-2021, 12:04 PM

Not really a 2123 could do that all day. It's 100db 1 watt and can handle 250 watts.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/2-horns.html

Rob:)

Hi Robh3606,

I can not find JBL 2123H THD data graph especially for high output SPL, but only for 2012H, and Beyma 10Mi100.

Regards
Ivica

Robh3606

03-29-2021, 05:43 PM

Hello Ivica

I could not find anything beyond the brochure and the 3rd page of the driver spec is missing in the library. Did you look at what I posted a link too? If you can use them in a system that could cover a 2-300 hundred seat theater and have to pad it down at home it's going to be fine. I use a pair in my active stereo pair and it's a great driver.

Rob:)

Anti K

03-29-2021, 11:17 PM

Why not use a pair of 2216-Nd in the box as is and try it with the original DD66000/DD67000/4435 helper woofer scenario?

DD66000s are defenitely excellent. And so is driver 2216Nd.
I'm wondering, if Mr. Greg Timbers knew the potential customes will have all these nowadays digital tools (despite a one fullrange amp) and full freedom to design, did he do same kind of Everest then? It's a stupid question, of cause. We never know.

Additional mid can be assembled vertically aligned with horn and another, more important thing in my mind is:
if same (kind of) motor drives not 140gram but 40-60gram cone
(with just 35% less surface area + 'released' of drag the energy-hungry lows) ,
it's potentially has to be more transparent?
In theory.

Thinking of 10-12'' 600W MID...

Why not use / ... / the box as is

Looking every day them and think the same thing... JBL 15'' fit there just perfectly!
They look stunning. Until I'll install the cover, like JeffW said - what stay behind the grill stays behing the grill :)

Assemble a new Horn ( and I have to do that) would be a very dirty work. I'll feel myself like barbarian.
Compared to that, assemble a new faceplate with epoxy below the horn is a piece of cake. And result would be - if someone sees it first time without knowledge of original - never notice it was othervise.

There is no 476Be in sales (fortunately are Radian and TAD), no 1500AL-2, 045 tweeter is a toy. Last but not least, today don't see the point make them passive as original.
SOME of changes has to be done anyway. Question just is, how many. But one thing is for sure - if I cange at least ONE thing, it not a clone anymore... So.

But I have to tell! DD66000 cabinets are built sophisticated and with care, all these inner structures etc.
And make changes are all truly difficult decisions for me. Out of respect what is done there...

Anti K

03-30-2021, 11:02 PM

Found a MID (possible candidate in term of needed features incl. match into cabinet)

Am I right (?) : Low(s) do in their cabinet 16,2 degrees phase shift at 300Hz by math (if it does more, the cycles repeats after 3,3ms and matters what is going on around zero).
Adding one 1st order LP at 300Hz causes 1/4 cycle delay.
Maybe adding a coil, adjusts resistance as well and 'bends' the left grapf shape even closer to the right one...
Shortly, result phase shift of low @300Hz is 286,2 deg.

Certain MID in certain tiny cabinet, with high Qms, very low Qts, very high sensi, I got (by adjusting cabinet) @ 300Hz = 286,2 deg

Both in result 286,2 @ 300Hz.
In theory, adding now 24LR LP and HP slopes (360 deg) they should be at 300Hz exactly in-phase? In theory.
Anorther thing is of cause
- fine tuning in reality by DSP (never get box inner volume and air resistant as precise)
- adjusting phase between HF and MID would be more challenge.

Thanks to JBL. Long time ago in past was thinking: in MID area in theory can go with cabinet as tiny, as it's physically not possible to build!? Now, especially models 2169 (or 2250 as well) show, it works actually in reality and how to do that...

Anti K

03-31-2021, 01:22 PM

Anti K

03-31-2021, 02:32 PM

Choosed 2261H as MID.

Had my doupts, but suddenly remind a lightig moment.

I'm engineer and producer. Last one means responsibility.
Changed some items inside my production some time ago - a Japanese ones to Austria ones. Last ones were same good on paper.

After a year of working the Austria items start little bit fail, finally - all of them. Nightmare warranty journey...
Despite the Japanese ones didn't fail NO ONE. Despite I used them even before and 10+ times more qty. NO ONE.
They firstly came out with certain tech, have longest experience (and certainly best brains as they came out first with THIS tech).
Simple as that.
This is not the only exaple i have...

I'm looking this DiffDrive drivers' basket, it reminds me military equipment. The ugly straight, therefore crazy rigid construction, compared someone's fancy curves, painted and patterned baskets.

Who wins battle on paper, who actually ? :D

jmpsmash

03-31-2021, 02:57 PM

JBL drivers are designed to be handled very rough. Those baskets, when not being used in a speaker, can probably take the place of a car jack stand when you need to change the car tire.

Having said that, one of my 2216ND-1 arrived DOA. The replacement did work and has been playing well and taken a lot of abuse since.

Earl K

04-02-2021, 06:14 AM

Choosed 2261H as MID.
Brand new buyable, in production. Used in Vertecs (power handle should be out of question)

Qms 4, MMS 49gram (1/3 of 2216Nd), strong 2x3'' VC = should move fast.
Heavily rigid alum.alloy basket.

(have experience with PHL 3430, on paper just like everything OK but cannot handle power , one BMS looked VERY interesting, on paper ...
... so let it be JBL , a savage. Period)

Turns out, the most informative area would be surprisingly tiny,
the rest of baffle is just 'supportive'

If you buy new JBL products make sure you have a clear avenue for return or replacement ( in case of defective product ).

JBL's Quality Control has been going down-hill for quite a while now. Given your location you don't want to be caught holding expensive "boat-anchors" .

Here's a screen grab shot of a 2261h for sale ( from Reconing Speakers > in Florida ).

88633

Notice the 2 very visible casting flaws ( cracks ) in the basket's rim ( as well as the annoyingly off-center sticky label ).

It's hard to believe that this retail company choose this example to post pictures of ( OTOH, maybe it's a good indication of their own lax attitude towards QC issues > IOW consider a different reseller ).

:)

Riley Casey

04-02-2021, 07:22 AM

Not sure what constitutes "quite a while now" but I've had seventy 2261s in portable service for almost twenty years without problems.

If you buy new JBL products make sure you have a clear avenue for return or replacement ( in case of defective product ).

JBL's Quality Control has been going down-hill for quite a while now. ... .

:)

Ian Mackenzie

04-02-2021, 07:23 AM

You will need to assess a close box yourself.

But this is what l would do.

Use the implementation from the M2 because it works.

You need higher sensitivity and more LF power so do a 4435 implementation.

4 x 2216nd is going to give you more kick if you blend the woofers correctly by running them up to 290 hertz. This can be done with an active crossover by cascading the 2nd woofer via the output of the main woofer filter with an additional low pass @ 290 hertz of 12 dB per octave and equalising the main woofer for a flat response with the horn. This is referred to as tri amping. When applied to the DD67000 is light years better according to Greg. So it should work with the 2216nd.

So you have two 2216nd woofers kicking really hard with their negative temperature coefficient Vic wire. The dual reflex loading with front ports will be significantly more dynamic with lower distortion as the cone displacement is 1/4 of a single 2216nd. The dual 2216nd will give you an additional +6 power handling and a +3 increase in sensitivity. That all adds up to a cleaner more effortless sounding system.

I think you will have a more difficult challenge blending the 18 inch sub to a sealed 2216 in practice.

The wider baffle is going to give you improved reflected acoustic output below 150 hertz into the room which you will associate with a bigger sound. Heck l might even try this myself.

pos

04-02-2021, 01:06 PM

When applied to the DD67000 is light years better according to Greg.
Did Greg specifically mentioned replacing the 6dB/oct passive filter with a 12dB/oct active one, one octave above the original one?
I would love to read about this if you have a link.

Ian Mackenzie

04-02-2021, 04:24 PM

Yes, not published on the LHS.

pos

04-02-2021, 06:14 PM

Now you have said too much Ian, I am genuinely interested :)
Was it a private discussion? No trace to be read/heard anywhere?

Anti K

04-03-2021, 01:41 AM

IOW consider a different reseller

can You advise some in EU

Earl K

04-03-2021, 01:23 PM

can You advise some in EU

Ask Guido at ( click the pic for a link );

https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=352x1024:format=jpg/path/s7a63f2c46e250b22/image/i078b8a64bef79362/version/1526463807/image.jpg (https://www.behringer-electric.de/lautsprecher-service/)

See if he can get those particular JBL parts you're after.

If he can, ask if he will open the boxes and test the components first ( to make sure they are up to spec ) before sending them to you .

Make sure you understand his return policy for damaged goods.

( Honestly, I have no idea if he can or will obtain the parts you seek ).

:)

Guido's a longtime member here at LHF ( though, he no longer posts here )

macaroonie

04-03-2021, 03:33 PM

Guido is in Germany.

Ian Mackenzie

04-04-2021, 01:35 AM

---End Quote---

- I do NOT use (I cannot if think a bit) M2 Lens in this project and do NOT use D2430K as well: how the M2 implementation could work?
- I You had 4350 boxes, did You screw in there 4435? And why. I see DD66000 cabinets can be executed as modern 4350. _I prefer if MF+HF are vertically aligned._ Supposedly not entirely stupid step.
- I talk about 2261 (not 2216) assemble in small sealed box as MID. Play down to 300Hz. Lower from there would be 2 x 2216 (think about even 2 x 2265 - not as low, lighter cones as well)

I have only one question: 12inch 2261H has ca3X lighter cone than 2216Nd, and it can be assembled vertically below horn.
Do You /everyone/ say that 2216Nd with its 140gram MMS - placed off-axis from HF - is wiser than fast MID exact below HF?

3 in 1.
- 2261 is lighter (59gram vs 140 gram)
- Vertically aligned with horn.
- MID not have to mess up with lows, below 300Hz

But *NO.*
*Why ?*

You seem to be hung up on cone assembly mass.

The mass of the cone assembly is only one of a dozen or more factors considered then designing a driver for a particular application.

Those 10 inch not 12 inch 2261H drivers used in pairs in jbls VTX V 20 are useful down to 80 hertz and -10 dB at 60 hertz in that design but of course you knew that.

https://jblpro.com/en-US/site_elements/v20-spec-sheet

The application notes for LF reinforcement are here.

https://jblpro.com/en-US/site_elements/application-guidelines-vtx-v20-s25

If you are interested in the 2261H buy a pair and evaluate them after determining a suitable design from the TL parameters. That is a good place to start. Only you can assess the suitability of the 2261H for your project.

As Robert pointed out in an earlier post you seem more interested in going down your own road (rabbit hole) than listening to recommendations from experienced members here.

Using these forums to sound out your strategy is at best risky as only you can make the relevant decisions, bite the bullet and then do the real work which can take quite a while.

It will go but as they say it won’t lick itself. You will spent quite a while getting it to sound listenable.

No one is suggesting your project will not be an interesting experiment but without clear viable design goals and a disciplined approach to implementation a lot could go wrong and it does. I recommend you read Drew’s Clues in the Library which carefully describes a similar system to what you might have in mind by a highly experienced Jbl employee.

Such large format systems require scale up.

This means everything including the venue and the listener distance like at least 5 -10 metres and preferably 10-15 metres. The acoustic power inside a solid structure without due attention to absorption or large bass traps can reach a point where the structure rings continuously according the reverberation time at specific frequencies. Bowel evacuation follows.

If that is what you have in mind JBL manufactures turn key solutions for clubs using the drivers you have mentioned. Would it make sense to consider a proven JBL engineered pro solution than spend time evaluating a myriad of options? Sometimes it pays to listen.

I wish you all the best with your project.

Anti K

04-04-2021, 02:37 AM

You seem to be hung up on cone assembly mass.

The mass of the cone assembly is only one of a dozen or more factors considered then designing a driver for a particular application.

Those 10 inch not 12 inch 2261H drivers used in pairs in jbls VTX V 20 are useful down to 80 hertz and -10 dB at 60 hertz in that design but of course you knew that.

https://jblpro.com/en-US/site_elements/v20-spec-sheet

The application notes for LF reinforcement are here.

https://jblpro.com/en-US/site_elements/application-guidelines-vtx-v20-s25

If you are interested in the 2261H buy a pair and evaluate them after determining a suitable design from the TL parameters. That is a good place to start. Only you can assess the suitability of the 2261H for your project.

As Robert pointed out in an earlier post you seem more interested in going down your own road (rabbit hole) than listening to recommendations from experienced members here.

Using these forums to sound out your strategy is at best risky as only you can make the relevant decisions, bite the bullet and then do the real work which can take quite a while.

It will go but as they say it won’t lick itself. You will spent quite a while getting it to sound listenable.

No one is suggesting your project will not be an interesting experiment but without clear viable design goals and a disciplined approach to implementation a lot could go wrong and it does. I recommend you read Drew’s Clues in the Library which carefully describes a similar system to what you might have in mind by a highly experienced Jbl employee.

Such large format systems require scale up.

This means everything including the venue and the listener distance like at least 5 -10 metres and preferably 10-15 metres. The acoustic power inside a solid structure without due attention to absorption or large bass traps can reach a point where the structure rings continuously according the reverberation time at specific frequencies. Bowel evacuation follows.

If that is what you have in mind JBL manufactures turn key solutions for clubs using the drivers you have mentioned. Would it make sense to consider a proven JBL engineered pro solution than spend time evaluating a myriad of options? Sometimes it pays to listen.

I wish you all the best with your project.

Thanks, Ian !

Anti K

04-04-2021, 02:47 AM

Dear Ian Mackenzie,

I have one question for You: YES or NO

Are You at position, the JBL models 4343, 4345, 4350 are all big messy mistakes.
Dolly Partons a'la 4430 etc are waay better.

One word?

Anti K

04-04-2021, 04:41 AM

Dear Ian Mackenzie, VOL 2

And I had another previous question as well, I pleased proper answer (as a advise from very experienced person)
but got just a politician's speech!?

So, I repeat my pervious question (and my bad, of cause 2261 is 10'', my typo) :

/ 2261H has ca3X lighter cone than 2216Nd, and it can be assembled vertically below horn.Do You /everyone/ say that 2216Nd with its 140gram MMS - placed off-axis from HF - is wiser than fast MID exact below HF? /

Did I make some addition typos (because english is not my native language) or is question itself in basics un-understandable (in this forum).
Or is M2 last and ultimative result the Human Being made in that civilization and here it ends
(when The Heavenly 2216Nd was used already in S4700 while ago)

What I'm thinking:
Coud You imagine that pig-killing noises all over the world studios, where people all have 2CH Crown amps and suddely JBL kicks on market a 3way!?
And why JBL had to even think about that - because folks in these studios sit at distance 10ft and these 2216s barely move.

If now put M2 into 'barn' or on stage, and keep 'melting' at 1000+W some hours (even not so long) , then...

Kreativlos

04-04-2021, 04:47 AM

As always it depends... not really a question you can awnser with yes or now.
From my POV and with my philosophy for my room circumstances I would say YES...

Ian Mackenzie

04-04-2021, 06:22 AM

My previous post was hardly political.

It was a polite way of saying it’s time to get you hands dirty and work out these unknowns yourself.

It’s the only way you will succeed.

Your a very arrogant in the present company btw. You remind me a someone from Texas who had acquired KenRick Sound monitors and proclaimed he was the new messire of JBL.

You need to come out and describe exactly what your proposed system is such as the horn specifically, the baffle layout, how far the compression driver is behind the horn?

This goes on from time to time and it’s a big freaking time wasting exercise for all concerned unless you give full disclosure.

You also need to elaborate on what sort of music you listen too, the source quality etc.

It’s not as simple as it might seem.

Where you are located and the environment relative to the loudspeaker has an overall impact on your design. A tight compact array is nearly always going to win out if you are seeking more than just a really loud wall of sound.

In a diy situation multiple drivers will give you accuracy but the listening window will be limited and balancing four drivers is an art.

If you are proposing to use a 2 or a 1.5 inch driver on 650 hertz radial horn a 10 inch driver is not going to do anything a 15 inch mid bass woofer can’t do.

If you are proposing a 10 inch mid bass driver or a mid range driver then it would be an advantage matching a 1200 hertz horn with a 1 inch or 1.5 inch driver.

The M2 wave guide is so far more evolved than a traditional bi radial horn that with its loading and coverage from about 700 hertz the crossover is seamless. The 2216nd by virtue of its cone profile, the pulp mix and the tech in the voice coil and the BL curve put it in a class of its own. The wave guide with this driver make a very coherent system with unique capabilities.

The older 70’s monitors were all multi way but they can’t match the M2 for its wide sweet spot which is important in studio mixing.

In diy you have more choices but you still have compromises such as more crossover points and the challenges that brings. If you don’t care about the listening window then continue to deliberate over your driver choices.

If $ is not an issue consider a Volt 2 or 3 inch dome midrange above the 10 inch driver and a Scan Be tweeter. You might consider a Volt 2500.4 10 inch driver which is one of the best 10 inch drivers available period. A number of studios in the UK and Europe use Volt based monitors and they are sometimes mixed with Jbl drivers. In fact a Jbl 2216nd would go nicely with a Volt 3 inch dome range driver.

https://voltloudspeakers.co.uk/loudspeakers/bm25004-10/

The hardest thing for you will be blending the drivers and no a dsp crossover won’t do all the thinking for you.

sebackman

04-04-2021, 07:13 AM

Ian is spot on.

Anti, you have received plenty of feedback and suggestions from very experienced people here in the LH forum.

Yet you return with new forms of the same question, namely how would your guesstimate driver combo perform. Those answers does not exist as no one have walked down exactly that isle. These are systems and the output is the sum of all the input variables just as Ian is pointing out.

It's not politics, it is science. And a little bit or art.

If you are interested in building a top-notch I suggest that you re-read this thread from the start. It's all there.

If you are interested in building cool furniture you are in the wrong forum.

Time to pay attention.

//Rob

Mr. Widget

04-04-2021, 10:46 AM

If you are interested in building cool furniture you are in the wrong forum.
While I am vaguely interested in speaker design, I think cool furniture might be far more interesting. Any ideas where I might find a “cool furniture forum”? Preferably one that isn’t dying a slow death of server crawl.

Widget

Robh3606

04-04-2021, 11:01 AM

Hello Anti K

You have to decide what you want to do, we can't do it for you. Looking at the size of your space you might be better off doing a normal size system to cover a small curtained area and then go with a distributed sound system to cover the balance of the area.

That said I have a feeling this is going to be another one of those threads to no where.

Hello Widget

Here you go!

http://www.myfurnitureforum.com/

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie

04-04-2021, 11:21 AM

Dear Ian Mackenzie,

I have one question for You: YES or NO

Are You at position, the JBL models 4343, 4345, 4350 are all big messy mistakes.
Dolly Partons a'la 4430 etc are waay better.

One word?

Your asking the wrong question.

The 4430 was the smaller sibling of the larger 4435.

Jbl introduced the bi radial configuration to regain market share of the Urei monitors which were dual concentric designs. The approach was about obtaining a more constant power response for the studio recording industry. At the time the studio market was evolving and JBLs product got the attention of that industry and it was in production for a long time.

Back in the 1970’s large multi way sofit mounted monitors were on trend in the recording industry. Mainly to impress clients. The HiFi customers aspired to those systems and so Jbl retained a strong cult following with their multi-way consumer blue baffle monitors till this day. Businesses such as KenRick Sound continue to recycle these systems by re conditioning vintage systems found on Japanese auction sites.

The blue baffle monitors as they become known retained strong popularity in Japan and throughout Asia and Jbl continued the 4 way monitors till the mid 1990’s. Three way blue baffle systems such as the 4367 designed by Greg are an important part of the consumer product line today.

As l said earlier buy some 2261 drivers and evaluate them with some proper measurements using a few different configurations. Listening tests are also very important.

You will find the baffle dimensions and the location of the driver on the baffle critical to obtaining a smooth response in the 300-1200 region. Ideally you want the midrange within +-2 dB.

Compare them with the 2216nd and decide for yourself the direction you want to go. Be prepared to make at least one prototype before settling on a final design. If you are pursuing the diy multi way system you will need to accept a dsp based active crossover such as the BSS. There is quite a learning curve to using these dsp based crossovers effectively. It might take 12 months to come up with adjustments you are satisfied with after you build your project.

The alternative is to clone a known design. The benefit to you is it’s been designed, tested and building it is relatively straightforward but it might take 12 months to complete.

Robh3606

04-04-2021, 11:49 AM

Jbl introduced the bi radial configuration to regain market share of the Urei monitors which were dual concentric designs. The approach was about obtaining a more constant power response for the studio recording industry. At the time the studio market was evolving and JBLs product got the attention of that industry and it was in production for a long time.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?4408-JBL-Technical-Notes-Volume-1-Number-15

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?7852-Improvements-in-Monitor-Loudspeaker-Systems

Required reading.

Rob:)

Anti K

04-04-2021, 03:55 PM

/.../ get you hands dirty
/... / Your a very arrogant
I will get my hands dirty asap the parts are here.
IF YOU , or someone else feel I’m ARROGANT ; I APOLOGISE!

Because I’m not and don’t want to be.
What I want, is advise.
copy-copy-copy is not advise.

consider a /…/ 2 or 3 inch dome midrange above the 10 inch driver and a Scan Be tweeter.

Ian is spot on ;
Anti, you have received suggestions
Wow. THIS IS THE SPOT. Scanspeak tweeter and 2inch dome -
... aside 4inch Beryllium CD + 2x15’’ bass. Everest cabinets. 2x18'' subs.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?4408-JBL-Technical-Notes-Volume-1-Number-15

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?7852-Improvements-in-Monitor-Loudspeaker-Systems
Rob
Thanks Rob! I was reading all this.
The most interesting part was of cause how implement two woofers into Everest cabinets.

Directly from text:
Both low-frequency drivers in the double system are identical to the driver in the single system except for lightened cones…

Second important says JBL made a horn:
… paying attention to power response and off-axis response, a monitor with fewer "coloration" and improved stereo effects can be realized. The use of a constant-coverage horn allows the designer to create a two-way monitor that surpasses three- or even four-way monitors in several of these important aspects.

First part desribes phenomenom I was paying attention here for a long time - mass matters

Second part shortly says: JBL GOT A HORN, better than old tricks, therefore result is more adequate and image wider.
OK. Good! I’ll install into EVEREST cabinet contemporary horns as well

PS. Thank You MrWidget and macaroonie, Your suggestions here and/or PM was supportive and constructive.

Ian, all the questions You placed me here, the location, room (I attached even detailed plan), the baffle layout, all answers are here in this thread.

One thing we in same exact position:
You suggested copy M2 with implementation as 4435 into Everest cabs. How You imagine that. Screw a M2 lens above one woofer of two, awry on the one wing? I'd say it would be ugly as F.
You are right - I do care cool furniture!