2216Nd, how does a DVC driver work in this case?

[johnhere]

I haven't find any clear photos show that how does a dual voice coil driver work. How do the two VCs arrange, does one have slightly bigger diameter and other smaller (in diameter) so the bigger one could "embrace" the smaller one?

it says in this datasheet, http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33565-2216Nd
VC section, 0.8" each coil and 0.3" apart, what does that mean

Thanks folks

[Robh3606]

Hello

Page 2 of the referenced EDS has a cross section of the driver You can see the arrangement of the coils in the drawing.

Rob:)

[johnhere]

Hello

Page 2 of the referenced EDS has a cross section..

I know that in the first place, problem is that image doesn't help anything.

Cheers

[Robh3606]

???? These are the coils. Both coils are on the same voice coil form of equal diameter. The coils are wound in opposite directions

Rob:)

[ivica]

???? These are the coils. Both coils are on the same voice coil form of equal diameter. The coils are wound in opposite directions

Rob:)

Hi Rob,

It is regrettable that 2216nd VC is 3-inch diameter, instead of 4-inc VC, that have been applied on lot of 15-inc JBL bass drivers. I can imagine that 4-inc dual voice coil solution would be much better solution (as in 2269H), with not so huge production costs. I think that the result would be much better, relative to THD, then 2226 dual-layer VC, so VC length round double 0.75-inch section would produce almost the same BL factor as in 2226, and would reduce 2-nd HD, as on 2269H.

regards
ivica

[Ian Mackenzie]

Interesting comment

The 2216 does have low distortion according to the EDS.

A 3 inch VC to me means lower mms and lower inductance than a 4 inch coil

In a mid bass driver the lower mms of a long 3 inch former used in differential drive could be an important consideration for the mid band.

The power PE is divided across two coils and the negative coefficient wire means lower power compression over a single 3 inch vc

[hsosdrum]

If you replaced the 2216Nd's 3-in VC with a 4-in version you'd lose the midrange magic that is at the heart of why this driver sounds so wonderful. Remember, it was designed for use up to between 800Hz and 1kHz in 2-way systems. If you're looking for a woofer to use in a 3-way system, I'd look elsewhere.

[edgewound]

I haven't find any clear photos show that how does a dual voice coil driver work. How do the two VCs arrange, does one have slightly bigger diameter and other smaller (in diameter) so the bigger one could "embrace" the smaller one?

it says in this datasheet, http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33565-2216Nd
VC section, 0.8" each coil and 0.3" apart, what does that mean

Thanks folks

This type of dual voice coil driver/motor topography is much different that the typical dual voice coil driver, say for for car audio, where the dual coils are wound together on the former, have separate lead outs for multiple impedance options with two sets of terminals and share the same voice coil gap.

This is in the family of "Differential Drive" transducers that have two voice coils wound separately on the same former and have two voice coil gaps.

The idea is to separate the travel of each coil and magnetic field into two separate entities. When the one voice travels toward the direction of the opposite gap, a braking force is applied to that coil while the opposite coil is charged to move in the reverse direction. This is said to reduce motor induced distortion. Ferrite magnet models have a third coil that sets in between the drive coils and acts as a magnetic braking system to help stop the movement of the entire coil assembly before it reverses direction.

Hope the explanation helps. Here's the tech note on the technology.

https://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/JBL_TN%201-33%20rev3.pdf

[ivica]

Interesting comment

The 2216 does have low distortion according to the EDS.
A 3 inch VC to me means lower mms and lower inductance than a 4 inch coil
In a mid bass driver the lower mms of a long 3 inch former used in differential drive could be an important consideration for the mid band.
The power PE is divided across two coils and the negative coefficient wire means lower power compression over a single 3 inch vc

Hi Ian Mackenzie,

If You compare Mms or BL factor data for 2216Nd, 2226H, 2235H, 2234H it can be seen that they are not so different each others.
I can imagine that dual VC construction due to its 'symmetrical' construction could reduce THD, but it wold be the same results using 4 inch VC,
especially in the drivers where 2 layers VC are used (I think as 2241, 2226, or 2206).
Using 15-inch drivers over, say 800Hz, would introduce a kind of beaming, due to the geometry characteristics, so I can not see real reason why
JBL have not apply dual VC construction using 4-inc VC (except 2269).

regards
ivica

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Ian Mackenzie,

If You compare Mms or BL factor data for 2216Nd, 2226H, 2235H, 2234H it can be seen that they are not so different each others.


regards
ivica

A 4 inch version of differential drive is good for some applications but as advised above not all applications.

I think you are saying it’s a cost cutting issue.

[edgewound]

Hi Ian Mackenzie,

If You compare Mms or BL factor data for 2216Nd, 2226H, 2235H, 2234H it can be seen that they are not so different each others.
I can imagine that dual VC construction due to its 'symmetrical' construction could reduce THD, but it wold be the same results using 4 inch VC,
especially in the drivers where 2 layers VC are used (I think as 2241, 2226, or 2206).
Using 15-inch drivers over, say 800Hz, would introduce a kind of beaming, due to the geometry characteristics, so I can not see real reason why
JBL have not apply dual VC construction using 4-inc VC (except 2269).

regards
ivica

Hi ivica,

None of the JBL drivers you mention have dual layer voice coils. All edgewound voice coils are single stack, single layer.

I believe B&C has some drivers that have "inside/outside" coils where the former is sandwiched between the two layers of windings.

[ivica]

Hi ivica,

None of the JBL drivers you mention have dual layer voice coils. All edgewound voice coils are single stack, single layer.

I believe B&C has some drivers that have "inside/outside" coils where the former is sandwiched between the two layers of windings.

Hi edgewound,

Many thanks for the info. I was thought that 2226H has 2 layers VC as it has un-expectable large Le, relative to its size, and if compared to 2235H VC.

Regards
Ivica

[toddalin]

Hi edgewound,

Many thanks for the info. I was thought that 2226H has 2 layers VC as it has un-expectable large Le, relative to its size, and if compared to 2235H VC.

Regards
Ivica

Seem like it would be the J who's values (RE and LE) are twice that of the H. Also note that the J has the second highest BL of any of the JBL woofers.

[badman]

This type of dual voice coil driver/motor topography is much different that the typical dual voice coil driver, say for for car audio, where the dual coils are wound together on the former, have separate lead outs for multiple impedance options with two sets of terminals and share the same voice coil gap.

This is in the family of "Differential Drive" transducers that have two voice coils wound separately on the same former and have two voice coil gaps.

The idea is to separate the travel of each coil and magnetic field into two separate entities. When the one voice travels toward the direction of the opposite gap, a braking force is applied to that coil while the opposite coil is charged to move in the reverse direction. This is said to reduce motor induced distortion. Ferrite magnet models have a third coil that sets in between the drive coils and acts as a magnetic braking system to help stop the movement of the entire coil assembly before it reverses direction.

Hope the explanation helps. Here's the tech note on the technology.

https://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/JBL_TN%201-33%20rev3.pdf

The description you use here seems inaccurate- the two coils are not in opposition to act as a braking force, but the shorted turns do, and act to prevent driver damage. With the actual voice coils, one is pushing, one is pulling, working together, not opposed. It's entirely possible I'm misinterpreting your meaning so apologies if so.

I'm a driver geek but I'd entrust you with JBL bits for service 100x out of 100 compared to my own hamfisting.

[toddalin]

An interesting thing about the dual voice coil models is that they create no effective inductance (LE) that serves as a low pass filter. The two coils cancel each other out.

[edgewound]

The description you use here seems inaccurate- the two coils are not in opposition to act as a braking force, but the shorted turns do, and act to prevent driver damage. With the actual voice coils, one is pushing, one is pulling, working together, not opposed. It's entirely possible I'm misinterpreting your meaning so apologies if so.

I'm a driver geek but I'd entrust you with JBL bits for service 100x out of 100 compared to my own hamfisting.

My mind tells me that this topology is analogous to a see-saw action in respect to the sinewave. Push-Pull with regard to pushing the cone outward with one coil while the other coil reverses the motion to pull inward as the sinewave swings from positive to negative. The two gaps act to repel the force of the other coil which would result in a "braking effect".

BTW...thanks for the compliment;)

[toddalin]

I came across this when considering the 2251Js. Everything you wanted to know about JBL differential driver right from the horse's mouth.


https://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/JBL_TN%201-33%20rev3.pdf

[ivica]

My mind tells me that this topology is analogous to a see-saw action in respect to the sinewave. Push-Pull with regard to pushing the cone outward with one coil while the other coil reverses the motion to pull inward as the sinewave swings from positive to negative. The two gaps act to repel the force of the other coil which would result in a "braking effect".

BTW...thanks for the compliment;)

Hi edgewound,

I am sure that each VC (connected in series) would produce the some motion in the same direction, depending of the current direction. As You have said that one VC has wound in one direction, while the other one in the opposite direction, as the magnetic field in the top and the bottom plates are in opposite directions.It would be expected that such construction would reduce even harmonics.
I believe that due to the opposite VC wounding directions would reduce mutual inductance (as JBL sid: "since the reversely wound coils will havenegative mutual inductance between them.", and relative long VC length (0.8") of each VC, and small (3-inch) VC diameter would give small Le.


http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Air-Core-Inductor-Calculator.phtml

regards
ivica

[edgewound]

Hi edgewound,

I am sure that each VC (connected in series) would produce the some motion in the same direction, depending of the current direction. As You have said that one VC has wound in one direction, while the other one in the opposite direction, as the magnetic field in the top and the bottom plates are in opposite directions.It would be expected that such construction would reduce even harmonics.
I believe that due to the opposite VC wounding directions would reduce mutual inductance (as JBL sid: "since the reversely wound coils will havenegative mutual inductance between them.", and relative long VC length (0.8") of each VC, and small (3-inch) VC diameter would give small Le.


http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Air-Core-Inductor-Calculator.phtml

regards
ivica

I humbly stand corrected on the operation of the Differential Drive Transducers and how the electromagnetic braking effect works. I found this article by Doug Button...the inventor...of how this driver topology works in practice. He explains in language that makes it pretty understandable.

Hard to believe this is almost 20 years ago.

https://www.svconline.com/news/jbls-differential-drive-technology-365983

JBL's Differential Drive technologyHistorically, the pro sound industry has gone to larger diameter voice coils and more massive magnet structures to increase loudspeaker output capability
Doug Button (https://www.svconline.com/author/doug-button)Apr 1, 1999










JBL's Differential Drive technologyApr 1, 1999 12:00 PM, Doug Button
Historically, the pro sound industry has gone to larger diameter voicecoils and more massive magnet structures to increase loudspeaker outputcapability within desired degrees of linearity. AT JBL, we are addressingadditional challenges in areas of driver fit and function as we strive tomake them smaller and lighter with no compromise in performance. JBL'sDifferential Drive technology is a step in this direction.
Differential Drive technology uses a pair of separate, reverse-wound voicecoils on a single voice-coil former and cone. The two coils operate inopposing magnetic fields to accomplish performance similar to aconventional design but in a considerably smaller and lighter structure.Although the dual-coil approach is not new, JBL has improved on the designthrough the application of two new features.
I will first explain how Differential Drive works by comparing the newdesign with the standard approach. For the sake of making anapples-to-apples comparison, assume that both designs have the same totalflux density in the gap and that the amount of copper and moving mass isthe same in each design. In the traditional JBL structure, magnetic flux Bcrosses a gap in which a coil of copper has a total electrical resistanceof R[e]. These quantities establish the value of the electromechanicalcoupling coefficient, (Bl)2/Re.

In Differential Drive topology, there are two magnetic gaps with opposingflux. The two voice coils are connected in reverse polarity so that themechanical forces they produce will add. For the moving mass to remain thesame, the two voice coils must have the same height and half the thicknessas in the standard design. The value of B will remain the same.

When these changes are made, the total length of the voice coil wire willbe doubled, and the resistance per-unit length of wire will be halved. Thetotal resistance of both voice coils in the series will then be four timeswhat it was with the standard approach. Since the length has doubled, thequantity (Bl)2 will now be four times what it was in the standard approach.This results in a coupling coefficient value of 4(Bl)2/Re. Canceling outthe fours yields the previous value of (Bl)2/Re.

In other words, we have exactly the same coupling coefficient as before,but we have picked up several important advantages relative to thetraditional design. The new voice coil assembly now has twice the surfacearea of the traditional one, and this means that it will have twice theheat dissipation of the traditional single coil, which translates directlyinto twice (+/-3 dB) the power input capability for a given operatingtemperature and observed amount of power compression. The new dual voicecoil structure will have less effective inductance than the standard onebecause the reverse-wound coils will have negative mutual inductancebetween them. This translates into a flatter impedance curve at higherfrequencies, producing more output for a given drive voltage. Finally, thenew design is generally more compact, and when used with neodymium magnets,it requires less steel to complete the magnetic circuit assembly.Consequently, it is much lighter. The design, however, is not limited tonew magnet materials and can be used with standard ferrite magnets withbenefits one and two above still applicable.


The two important design features referred to earlier deal with overallsystem linearity. First, the two voice coils are not placed at the axialcenter points of their respective magnetic gaps; they are symmetricallydisplaced axially outward so that the overall net distribution of fluxdensity in the combined gap space is most linear. This ensures maximumsystem displacement linearity for the moving system.
In high-level operation, low-frequency high-displacement signals often tendto drive the voice coils out of their linear operating region. Whiletraditional designs rely on progressive suspension designs to constrainthis motion mechanically, the Differential Drive transducers makeadditional use of a shorted electromagnetic braking coil. This is shown inFigure 1. The coil is located mid-way between the two driving coils, and atnormal excursions, it is virtually inert. On high excursions, the shortedcoil enters each magnetic field alternately, and current is induced intothe coil. That induced current, by Lenz's law, acts to oppose the motionthat causes it. The result is additional braking on cone motion, resultingin lower distortion.

[ivica]

I humbly stand corrected on the operation of the Differential Drive Transducers and how the electromagnetic braking effect works. I found this article by Doug Button...the inventor...of how this driver topology works in practice. He explains in language that makes it pretty understandable.

Hard to believe this is almost 20 years ago.

https://www.svconline.com/news/jbls-differential-drive-technology-365983
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet (https://www.svconline.com/news/jbls-differential-drive-technology-365983)

JBL's Differential Drive technology

Historically, the pro sound industry has gone to larger diameter voice coils and more massive magnet structures to increase loudspeaker output capability
Doug Button (https://www.svconline.com/author/doug-button)Apr 1, 1999






JBL's Differential Drive technology

Apr 1, 1999 12:00 PM, Doug Button
Historically, the pro sound industry has gone to larger diameter voicecoils and more massive magnet structures to increase loudspeaker outputcapability within desired degrees of linearity. AT JBL, we are addressingadditional challenges in areas of driver fit and function as we strive tomake them smaller and lighter with no compromise in performance. JBL'sDifferential Drive technology is a step in this direction.
Differential Drive technology uses a pair of separate, reverse-wound voicecoils on a single voice-coil former and cone. The two coils operate inopposing magnetic fields to accomplish performance similar to aconventional design but in a considerably smaller and lighter structure.Although the dual-coil approach is not new, JBL has improved on the designthrough the application of two new features.
I will first explain how Differential Drive works by comparing the newdesign with the standard approach. For the sake of making anapples-to-apples comparison, assume that both designs have the same totalflux density in the gap and that the amount of copper and moving mass isthe same in each design. In the traditional JBL structure, magnetic flux Bcrosses a gap in which a coil of copper has a total electrical resistanceof R[e]. These quantities establish the value of the electromechanicalcoupling coefficient, (Bl)2/Re.

In Differential Drive topology, there are two magnetic gaps with opposingflux. The two voice coils are connected in reverse polarity so that themechanical forces they produce will add. For the moving mass to remain thesame, the two voice coils must have the same height and half the thicknessas in the standard design. The value of B will remain the same.

When these changes are made, the total length of the voice coil wire willbe doubled, and the resistance per-unit length of wire will be halved. Thetotal resistance of both voice coils in the series will then be four timeswhat it was with the standard approach. Since the length has doubled, thequantity (Bl)2 will now be four times what it was in the standard approach.This results in a coupling coefficient value of 4(Bl)2/Re. Canceling outthe fours yields the previous value of (Bl)2/Re.

In other words, we have exactly the same coupling coefficient as before,but we have picked up several important advantages relative to thetraditional design. The new voice coil assembly now has twice the surfacearea of the traditional one, and this means that it will have twice theheat dissipation of the traditional single coil, which translates directlyinto twice (+/-3 dB) the power input capability for a given operatingtemperature and observed amount of power compression. The new dual voicecoil structure will have less effective inductance than the standard onebecause the reverse-wound coils will have negative mutual inductancebetween them. This translates into a flatter impedance curve at higherfrequencies, producing more output for a given drive voltage. Finally, thenew design is generally more compact, and when used with neodymium magnets,it requires less steel to complete the magnetic circuit assembly.Consequently, it is much lighter. The design, however, is not limited tonew magnet materials and can be used with standard ferrite magnets withbenefits one and two above still applicable.


The two important design features referred to earlier deal with overallsystem linearity. First, the two voice coils are not placed at the axialcenter points of their respective magnetic gaps; they are symmetricallydisplaced axially outward so that the overall net distribution of fluxdensity in the combined gap space is most linear. This ensures maximumsystem displacement linearity for the moving system.
In high-level operation, low-frequency high-displacement signals often tendto drive the voice coils out of their linear operating region. Whiletraditional designs rely on progressive suspension designs to constrainthis motion mechanically, the Differential Drive transducers makeadditional use of a shorted electromagnetic braking coil. This is shown inFigure 1. The coil is located mid-way between the two driving coils, and atnormal excursions, it is virtually inert. On high excursions, the shortedcoil enters each magnetic field alternately, and current is induced intothe coil. That induced current, by Lenz's law, acts to oppose the motionthat causes it. The result is additional braking on cone motion, resultingin lower distortion.


Hi edgewound,

Many thanks for the presented explanation, I think it is much more clear. Only one thing here I want to impasse, using neodymium magnet in the middle of magnetic structure would heat-up the magnet, and as neodymium magnets are sensitive to the higher temperature it would be better to be used samarium-cobalt magnet type, but Asian production of such magnets are very expensive too.

http://www.magmamagnets.com/magnets-technical-information/permanent-magnet-stability/

I have not seen any JBL words about that.

regards
ivica