JBL by HARMAN Introduces Updated, Iconic JBL L100 Loudspeaker at CES 2018

[Odd]

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180108006125/en/JBL-HARMAN-Introduces-Updated-Iconic-JBL-L100



https://mms.businesswire.com/media/20180108006125/en/633758/4/JBL_L100.jpg?download=1

[SEAWOLF97]

The L100 Classic will be available in Spring 2018 at an MSRP of $4,000 per pair.

[1audiohack]

Maybe this will increase the availability of the 1200FE.

Barry.

[aardvarcus]

I wonder if their grill foam would fit the original frames...

[grumpy]

Maybe this will increase the availability of the 1200FE.

:rotfl:That's been the only positive thing I could think of. "L100"... $4K ... Samsung... Crumbling foam grilles...
Seems I'm not the intended demographic... though you'd think I would be. Must be getting grumpier.

[tom1040]

Price is up there but I think this to be a very interesting speaker. Love to hear it!

[rusty jefferson]

......Seems I'm not the intended demographic... though you'd think I would be. Must be getting grumpier.
I think our age group is the intended demographic, but maybe a couple of income brackets higher.....;)

[Titanium Dome]

This L100 remake was done by Chris Hagen, the guy behind the L Series (1990s): L-1, L-3, L-5, L-7. He's done a lot of designs for JBL and others, including the JBL L100t3. He's a member here--or was back in 2007 when the L Series thread was running hot.

Naturally, all of us old farts will balk at the $4k price tag since we remember the 1970 price tag of $273 each. No doubt this new model will eat the original's lunch. It's decades ahead in components, has a real crossover, an honest-to-goodness tuned port, much improved connectors, and (hopefully) a grille that will last much longer than the original. Congrats to Chris!

Full Disclosure: My original L100s aren't going anywhere.

[grumpy]

In that rough price range, and still being a JBL fan of sorts, I’d be seriously comparing the 4429. I could see folks going either way in that runoff. Admittedly, I’d have a bias going in, but it would make for a fun listen.

[BMWCCA]

This L100 remake was done by Chris Hagen, the guy behind the L Series (1990s): L-1, L-3, L-5, L-7. He's done a lot of designs for JBL and others, including the JBL L100t3. He's a member here--or was back in 2007 when the L Series thread was running hot.
Congratulations to Chris who was always very congenial and forthcoming in his participation on this forum. :applaud:

[1audiohack]

:rotfl:That's been the only positive thing I could think of. "L100"... $4K ... Samsung... Crumbling foam grilles...
Seems I'm not the intended demographic... though you'd think I would be. Must be getting grumpier.

You read me right brother. :)

Barry.

[speakerdave]

$273 1970 dollars is $1735 today.

Buy two, add a $30 million per annum CEO--the math works.

[svollmer]

$273 1970 dollars is $1735 today.

Buy two, add a $30 million per annum CEO--the math works.

I was going to balk too, but I also went to the CPI calculator before seeing your post and got the same answer. So.....$4,000 per pair isn't all that crazy. It's only $530 off per pair from 1970 prices; assuming the calculator is accurate.

They sure look sexy!

[SEAWOLF97]

I was thinking these were maybe the most expensive 3 way, 12 incher JBL bookshelves,
but no, the Century Golds retailed at $5000 , dont know the year :dont-know: ,
but trace that year down and plug into your inflation calculators.

Oh wait, found it online. 1996

$7,863

[hjames]

"The original L100 production run included the L100, along with the subsequent L100A and L100 Century evolutions that quickly followed and ran thru the end of production in 1978. That fundamental compact 12-inch 3-way design is maintained in the L100 Classic with improvements made to the transducers, enclosure tuning, and crossover network design. Designed by Chris Hagen, the same acoustic system engineer that created the L100T3 in 1988, the L100 Classic benefits from decades of JBL engineering prowess along with the world’s most advanced acoustic engineering resources available in HARMAN’s Northridge, California design center."
Optional black metal floor stands are available with included adjustable carpet spikes. The walnut wood frame grille is available with the iconic Quadrex foam insert in a choice of black, orange, or blue. The L100 Classic will be available in Spring 2018 at an MSRP of $4,000 per pair.

Holy moly - the L100-Century speakers were $600 a pair from Sound Gallery in Wheaton Plaza back in 1976 -
beyond my budget, so I bought some L36 Decades for $400!

yay, Paliwali - and yay SampySung!

So - made in China or Hecho en México?



https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180108006125/en/JBL-HARMAN-Introduces-Updated-Iconic-JBL-L100



https://mms.businesswire.com/media/20180108006125/en/633758/4/JBL_L100.jpg?download=1

[rusty jefferson]

Not to derail this thread about the new speakers, but....

I purchased a pair of 4311b in (I think) 1976. I was still in high school, I know that, with money from my 1st part time job. I paid $550 and purchased from a dealer. According to the CPI calculator, that's equivalent to $2450 for a pair as of 2 months ago. You can see the loss of buying power in just a few years in the 70s.

Also, there isn't a consumer wage calculator that I see to tell us how much less money hourly wage earners are actually making based on our wages and benefits (lost insurance, pensions, etc) of that time to today. Anyone who has worked with their hands in the craft trades or manufacturing since that era will confirm the loss of buying power, though.

And, I assume, these speakers are completely manufactured in another country by folks aspiring to have an American(ish) middle-class lifestyle someday too. Nothing wrong with that, except in the 70s the money paid for a pair went to working Americans who could have probably afforded a pair and the money stayed in their local economy, blah, blah, blah.

You have to compare apples to apple, not apples to oranges. I'm sure they're fine speakers. If there was a corporate profit calculator on the interweb, I imagine we'd see the new speakers contributing more profit than the old ones.:)

[SEAWOLF97]

Holy moly - they were $600 a pair in 1976

I first heard a pair of L100's in '72, they were $273, no discount. I was in love, but a single unit was almost my monthly check. :eek::eek:

So I soldiered on with my PX bought Pioneer CS-77a's ($63 ea.) . Did get my L100's in the late 80's/early 90's for $4 the pair at a thrift. They didn't quite measure up to my memories but now my son loves them. His friends remark about his cool audio system. (Kenwood monster receiver, L100's, Technics SL-1200 mk1 TT)

In researching the Century Gold production year, I found a review online -in French- which I don't much comprehend (and the translation is terrible) , where I THINK the poster says he has them and recommends the 120Ti as a fine alternative.

I do have 120's and really like those. Also have 250ti's and I guess that the 044Ti HF in both is appealing to me. :)

120's are very happy on the 130wpc "new class A" Technics integrated amp.

[LowPhreak]

Someone at Harmin' has gone nuts (yet again). Make them somewhat affordable like the L100 was.

[speakerdave]

The thing a lot of us are feeling right now is a microcosm of the place working people have had in this economy over the last forty or fifty years. A pair of L100's were, say, half a month's salary then, and the commemorative edition more than half a month's salary now. Still can't afford or make sense of buying them. For a lot of people the picture is more grim. It's a debate whether it was avoidable or not in a world where there are billions of people aspiring to a bigger slice of the pie. Two things are not debatable, I think; one is that US government policies have accelerated the change so that it has happened more quickly than one would have imagined; the second is that capital has seen an opportunity to roll back the gains of labor and social values (i.e., decreasing pollution) made in the US over the previous century, and has grossly improved its position relative to everything else, to a point, in fact, that has historically led to cataclysmic effects. The significance of this is demonstrated by Thomas Piketty in Capital in the Twenty-First Century, which I am presently chipping away at. Not a light read, the prose will put you to sleep, but the anxiety of its import will keep you awake all night.

[BMWCCA]

Someone at Harmin' has gone nuts (yet again). Make them somewhat affordable like the L100 was.
Just wait for the tent sale.

Weren't the Studio 590s recently available for under $500-each?

[DavidF]

Sooo, wait, it's not wireless??:blink:

[Mannermusic]

The thing a lot of us are feeling right now is a microcosm of the place working people have had in this economy over the last forty or fifty years. A pair of L100's were, say, half a month's salary then, and the commemorative edition more than half a month's salary now. Still can't afford or make sense of buying them. For a lot of people the picture is more grim. It's a debate whether it was avoidable or not in a world where there are billions of people aspiring to a bigger slice of the pie. Two things are not debatable, I think; one is that US government policies have accelerated the change so that it has happened more quickly than one would have imagined; the second is that capital has seen an opportunity to roll back the gains of labor and social values (i.e., decreasing pollution) made in the US over the previous century, and has grossly improved its position relative to everything else, to a point, in fact, that has historically led to cataclysmic effects. The significance of this is demonstrated by Thomas Piketty in Capital in the Twenty-First Century, which I am presently chipping away at. Not a light read, the prose will put you to sleep, but the anxiety of its import will keep you awake all night.

I'm about 1/2 through Piketty and it just gets too numerical/dry. Not sure even Janet Yellen would make it through. I thought The New Depression by Richard Duncan was actually more useful / readable in a historical sense - how we got into this mess. My Uncle Bob survived "The Battle of the Bulge" (I was 3) which anchors the reality of the whole thing. One big sweep of continual foolish macro policies in a desperate attempt to keep the economy charging following WWII. Thing is, you cannot recover from this stuff - headed for a new paradigm. Agree with your analysis. Mike

[LowPhreak]

Just wait for the tent sale.

Weren't the Studio 590s recently available for under $500-each?

Yes, something like that. I guess JBL hasn't noticed that average Joe who might be looking at a L100 type of speaker can't afford $3-4k, nor wants to spend it even if he/she can.

[jpw retired]

It will be interesting to hear how much of the original L-100 sound was left in the new replacement.
I doubt if JBL will take out all the color they can. They will probably leave at least vestiges of the originals sonic signature.
The stands looked a bit short to me for optimum imaging etc. Perhaps it was an aesthetic choice.

Given over a 70 year history of building speakers, I have often wondered why JBL does not or has not resurrected other famous models from the past.
Ford, Chevy and Chrysler presumably make a fortune doing resto-mods on Mustangs, Camaro's, and Challengers.
Several JBL models come to mind as good candidates including the Hartsfield, L-300 and various 43 series monitors.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I wonder what GT is thinking about this?

[Don C]

These are 11K less expensive than Yamaha's 12 inch three way monitor. A bargain.

[Thomax]

Found these pictures : https://www.phileweb.com/news/audio/201801/10/19388.html

Build quality does not seem worth 4000 $ (first picture look at the foam of the grill on the edges) and the woofer doesn't look like the usual 1200FE (or did they put another model in it) ?

[svollmer]

Found these pictures : https://www.phileweb.com/news/audio/201801/10/19388.html

Build quality does not seem worth 4000 $ (first picture look at the foam of the grill on the edges) and the woofer doesn't look like the usual 1200FE (or did they put another model in it) ?


Yes, I noticed that on the picture in the beginning of this thread. Look at the right side of the orange Quadrex; it looks squiggly (technical term). https://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...conic-JBL-L100 (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180108006125/en/JBL-HARMAN-Introduces-Updated-Iconic-JBL-L100)

[Thomax]

Yes, I noticed that on the picture in the beginning of this thread. Look at the right side of the orange Quadrex; it looks squiggly (technical term). https://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...conic-JBL-L100 (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180108006125/en/JBL-HARMAN-Introduces-Updated-Iconic-JBL-L100)

Exactly and at the bottom there's a gap between the foam and the wood. Never owned an original L100, were they better made ?

[rdgrimes]

Image from Synthesis on FaceBook:

79690

[Mannermusic]

It will be interesting to hear how much of the original L-100 sound was left in the new replacement.
I doubt if JBL will take out all the color they can. They will probably leave at least vestiges of the originals sonic signature.
The stands looked a bit short to me for optimum imaging etc. Perhaps it was an aesthetic choice.

Given over a 70 year history of building speakers, I have often wondered why JBL does not or has not resurrected other famous models from the past.
Ford, Chevy and Chrysler presumably make a fortune doing resto-mods on Mustangs, Camaro's, and Challengers.
Several JBL models come to mind as good candidates including the Hartsfield, L-300 and various 43 series monitors.

Ford is doing another Mustang "Bullitt" - will be at the auto show this month.

[Oldmics]

So the real question is will these new grills retrofit onto the original L100 cabinets. :bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

If so JBLs gonna sell more grills than speakers. :eek:

Oldmics

[Mr. Widget]

They at least used real walnut veneer on these like the originals! Most of JBL’s other current offerings use “manufactured” veneers that are not all that wonderful in my opinion.

These are likely similar to the retro Ford T-Bird of a few years back. They will appeal to a certain market segment but not be a huge seller.



Widget

[Titanium Dome]

They at least used real walnut veneer on these like the originals! Most of JBL’s other current offerings use “manufactured” veneers that are not all that wonderful in my opinion.

These are likely similar to the retro Ford T-Bird of a few years back. They will appeal to a certain market segment but not be a huge seller.



Widget

Good analogy!

The retro 2002 to 2005 T-Bird appealed to me until I sat in one and drove it. At least in that case I had the real-world experience to justify changing my original enthusiasm for the car. From that time forward, I viewed them quite differently when I saw someone driving one.

I loved the '55 to '57 T-Birds a lot, and wish I would have hung onto one. It's certainly a nostalgia thing, because even the most mundane car today is far superior to those beautiful 'Birds in virtually every practical way.

At least in this JBL case, I've still got the original straight-line L100 (two pairs) and I won't have too much desire for the new "Classic." But if I ever get the chance to sit in a seat and hear a "Classic," I wonder if I'll lose the nostalgia for the old and long for the new?

Off the cuff opinions are wonderful, but experience usually trumps it for me.

[martin_wu99]

What's the differences between L100 and 4312 series?:blink:

[jpw retired]

What's the differences between L100 and 4312 series?:blink:

Obviously there will be the differences in the drivers, crossover, tuning etc that somebody will eventually post here. In regards to the sound we will just have to wait to compare them. I had a pair of 4312's for awhile and was not impressed. A dull persistent thump in the mid bass, a rather opaque midrange, some metal dome fizz, just not very natural sounding overall. I did not have a pair of original L-100's to compare them with to see how closely the 4312 mimic's the L-100. Personally I do not want the obvious colorations of either the L-100 or 4312 built into the new L-100 Classic. To me the good things about the L-100 were their high output capability, and good for the time clarity and definition, all in a fairly compact enclosure. Improve upon those traits, then smooth the response for low coloration, and finally give me a little more extension down low and up high and it will be a winner if the price does not scare people away. The vertical array should improve imaging too.

On a side note, it's true that $273 each was the most remembered retail price for the original L-100. From memory I think they started out at $264 and over the 8 years they were offered went up into the $315-$317 each area. Using the cost of living calculator those final retail prices would end up putting the L-100 Classic pretty close to $4000. Remember too that discounting on JBL was very limited in the early to mid 70's. Today is a different story, so maybe the value is not as bad as some people may think.

[martin_wu99]

Obviously there will be the differences in the drivers, crossover, tuning etc that somebody will eventually post here. In regards to the sound we will just have to wait to compare them. I had a pair of 4312's for awhile and was not impressed. A dull persistent thump in the mid bass, a rather opaque midrange, some metal dome fizz, just not very natural sounding overall. I did not have a pair of original L-100's to compare them with to see how closely the 4312 mimic's the L-100. Personally I do not want the obvious colorations of either the L-100 or 4312 built into the new L-100 Classic. To me the good things about the L-100 were their high output capability, and good for the time clarity and definition, all in a fairly compact enclosure. Improve upon those traits, then smooth the response for low coloration, and finally give me a little more extension down low and up high and it will be a winner if the price does not scare people away. The vertical array should improve imaging too.

On a side note, it's true that $273 each was the most remembered retail price for the original L-100. From memory I think they started out at $264 and over the 8 years they were offered went up into the $315-$317 each area. Using the cost of living calculator those final retail prices would end up putting the L-100 Classic pretty close to $4000. Remember too that discounting on JBL was very limited in the early to mid 70's. Today is a different story, so maybe the value is not as bad as some people may think.
L100 is consumer version of the 4311, which sells over 125,000 pairs in the 1970s.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think a 3 way system that size is what it is no matter what they do to it.

I do like the look of it though.

Modern vintage decor is on trend so l imagine Jbl want a slice of that market

[Mannermusic]

I think a 3 way system that size is what it is no matter what they do to it.

I do like the look of it though.

Modern vintage decor is on trend so l imagine Jbl want a slice of that market


1st sentence - A-men.

[jblwolf]

I read the new L100 was 25.5×15.5×13.75 vs old L100 23.5×14.5×13.625.
new grills are made of Quadrex.
Sounds like their just using the name plate.

[SEAWOLF97]

Remember too that discounting on JBL was very limited in the early to mid 70's. .

back then JBL maintained their MSRP price through a BS "Fair Trade" scheme.

here's an interesting google books article about JBL demanding $200K from LaFayette Radio for selling JBL under MSRP

https://books.google.com/books?id=MigEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=fair+trade+price+jbl&source=bl&ots=fvDjUZHhJK&sig=uor53k0HBSpO6Lcm0HQMSGLZUNg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg1YbohdjYAhUS7mMKHf7HD-MQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=fair%20trade%20price%20jbl&f=false

There is also reference to FT prices in the John Eargle book .... https://books.google.com/books?id=oHNMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT42&lpg=PT42&dq=fair+trade+price+jbl&source=bl&ots=N49HSyEWdH&sig=XOzSJyOH6Mufd8BHCXqW0sG0hho&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg1YbohdjYAhUS7mMKHf7HD-MQ6AEIOTAD#v=onepage&q=fair%20trade%20price%20jbl&f=false

page about "Clark kent & The Super Shelf"

[LowPhreak]

^ LaFayette selling the L100 for $199.88 instead of MSRP $297. Oh the horror!

[hsosdrum]

back then JBL maintained their MSRP price through a BS "Fair Trade" scheme.

here's an interesting google books article about JBL demanding $200K from LaFayette Radio for selling JBL under MSRP

https://books.google.com/books?id=MigEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=fair+trade+price+jbl&source=bl&ots=fvDjUZHhJK&sig=uor53k0HBSpO6Lcm0HQMSGLZUNg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg1YbohdjYAhUS7mMKHf7HD-MQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=fair%20trade%20price%20jbl&f=false

There is also reference to FT prices in the John Eargle book .... https://books.google.com/books?id=oHNMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT42&lpg=PT42&dq=fair+trade+price+jbl&source=bl&ots=N49HSyEWdH&sig=XOzSJyOH6Mufd8BHCXqW0sG0hho&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg1YbohdjYAhUS7mMKHf7HD-MQ6AEIOTAD#v=onepage&q=fair%20trade%20price%20jbl&f=false

page about "Clark kent & The Super Shelf"

Yeah, the FTC killed that whole "Fair Trade" scheme by around 1980.

[jpw retired]

Yeah, the FTC killed that whole "Fair Trade" scheme by around 1980.

I sold JBL during the Fair Trade era. It was widely ignored as it should have been. Creative ways could always be found to discount.
Inflate the value of a trade-in or it was a display model etc. JBL did have less markup than many of the brands back then so when a discount was given it was not as large.

[edgewound]

I posted this in another thread, "4367 first listen". Harman has their work cut out for them.

I listened to the 4367 at CES along with the new L100 Classic.

I preferred the midrange voicing, soundstage and imaging of the L100 Classic over the 4367. I preferred the effortless bass response of the 4367.

The midrange...voices, sax, piano, guitar...retreated into the box with the 4376, whereas with the L100 Classic it was nicely set in front of the speakers in the room. The high end was actually nicer with the 4367, more detailed and present. The build quality on the L100 Classic is suspect with the front baffle vinyl covering peeling off the left demo speaker. The quadrex grille foam will not fit the original L100 as the new model is significantly larger. Not worth $4,000.00/pair. It's not built in the US with US craftsmen, so you can throw the inflation calculator out the window. The build quality of the 4367 is excellent as it should be for $15,000.00/pair, but the walnut veneer is nowhere close to the old days. It's looks are "non-organic. Same with the L100 Classic. The Logo plate/L-Pad mount on the L100 Classic is also pretty cheesy looking.

Down the hall at ELAC with Andrew Jones, I heard a phenomenal new series named ARGO. A super compact, actively triamped, diminutive system that puts anything to shame Harman currently offers, all for a price of $2,000.00/pair coming mid-year.

[martin_wu99]

I posted this in another thread, "4367 first listen". Harman has their work cut out for them.

I listened to the 4367 at CES along with the new L100 Classic.

I preferred the midrange voicing, soundstage and imaging of the L100 Classic over the 4367. I preferred the effortless bass response of the 4367.

The midrange...voices, sax, piano, guitar...retreated into the box with the 4376, whereas with the L100 Classic it was nicely set in front of the speakers in the room. The high end was actually nicer with the 4367, more detailed and present. The build quality on the L100 Classic is suspect with the front baffle vinyl covering peeling off the left demo speaker. The quadrex grille foam will not fit the original L100 as the new model is significantly larger. Not worth $4,000.00/pair. It's not built in the US with US craftsmen, so you can throw the inflation calculator out the window. The build quality of the 4367 is excellent as it should be for $15,000.00/pair, but the walnut veneer is nowhere close to the old days. It's looks are "non-organic. Same with the L100 Classic. The Logo plate/L-Pad mount on the L100 Classic is also pretty cheesy looking.

Down the hall at ELAC with Andrew Jones, I heard a phenomenal new series named ARGO. A super compact, actively triamped, diminutive system that puts anything to shame Harman currently offers, all for a price of $2,000.00/pair coming mid-year.
New L100 Classic is even better than 4367?unbelieveable:eek:

[SEAWOLF97]

New L100 Classic is even better than 4367?unbelieveable:eek:

Is that what you derived from EW's post ? :dont-know:

[edgewound]

New L100 Classic is even better than 4367?unbelieveable:eek:

Like has been stated before, this is all subjective.

Another gentlemen sat down and and listened for a few seconds...maybe a minute or two. When the speaker cables were changed to the 4367 after the L100 Classic, he immediately proclaimed them to be the "best speakers he's ever heard". After a few minutes of listening to him talk, I surmised he wasn't there as an "industry person", but someone that was looking for his home system. The immediacy of the increased bass response and sensitivity seemed to be the first thing that grabbed his attention from the significantly larger box and 15" woofer. It is impressive...at first. But when the actual music performance is sucked back into the box rendering very little image and soundstage, it's very disappointing. this wasn't a subtle difference, either. The Harman guy doing the demo even said to me...after I pointed out the difference..." I see what you mean by the midrange". I don't think that's an insignificant remark coming the guy doing the demo.

This, I think, is where "focus groups" come into play when doing market research on this stuff. I'm a musician. I prefer my music to be as it should sound when playing it live. Details...textures...colors..."seeing the music"...this kind of experience that makes the hairs on your arms stand up. It's a visceral experience that I think most non-musicians don't experience. Playing...feeling...music is such a sensory experience that I feel those that have never learned to play an instrument have a hard time equating...learning how to listen, and what to listen for. My friends and family that don't play ask me how I can learn a piece of music by just listening to it with out sheet music telling me what to play. I don't really read or sight read. How do I learn my parts? I'll put on a piece of music and have them concentrate on each instrument. Pick out the bass line. Listen to the chord changes/progression. Isolate that in your mind. Same with the kick drum that should follow the bass line. All of a sudden, it's like a light that goes on..."Oh wow! I never have tried that before! It was all just a bunch of sounds. Now I get". That's the simple version but I think it makes the point.

Speakers for the consumer market seem to voice the output to accentuate the bass response and high frequencies while ignoring the MUSIC which mostly resides in the midrange frequencies. This is why I prefer my speakers to unmask the music...warts and all...or gloriousness and all. It's an experience that can take you out of reality for a little while unlike anything else. Closing your eyes and "seeing the music" is what It's all about to me. How the speakers are packaged is very important as well with the consumer market and having a high WAF make it even more challenging to integrate as furniture.

So...that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Ken

That’s very insightful

A question of logic more than anything

As a musician you and the instrument are one.

But at the venue the audience not you are detached some distance away.

Therefore, your psycho acoustic is not the same as the audience

As a recording and the reproduction would the audience want to be sitting next to the instrument as a musician or as a member of the audience some distance away ?

What l am saying is you “may” have a strong association with the L100 for that reason.

Maybe the L100 has that presentation or presence on all recording?

Just thoughts

Edit: Technicially l have not heard a horn sound like a cone yet. So it could be as simple as that. Jbl horns rely on diffraction from a place within. It could be that your musician ear is sensitive to. Bill Woods and Steve Schell are experts on that topic

[edgewound]

Hi Ian,

Live music/sound quality is very venue dependent, and whom is manning the mixing console. Small venues like a jazz club are great for hearing what live instruments sound like without the effects of a reverberant concrete and steel jungle like Staples Center or The Honda Center/Anaheim Pond. I haven't been to the Fabulous Forum in Los Angeles/Inglewood since it was converted to a concert venue only. Some musician friends of mine said the acoustics are quite good now, and a great place for a larger concert. The Greek Theater in Los Angeles is one of my favorite concert venues...an outdoor amphitheater with great acoustics. The Hollywood Bowl is pretty great to. Diana Krall is a fabulous show at the Hollywood Bowl...though it's just too crowded and the logistics can be a bit much to take anymore.

The M2 system is a professional studio monitor. The 4367 is purported to be the "consumer" version of the M2. The difference between these two system is something like $10,000. That's quite a difference when thinking that maybe just tweaking the voicing of the crossover would get way closer to the sonics of the M2. Hearing the tribute L100 soundstage and imaging with impressive room placement forward of the speakers, then hearing the same pieces of music retreat into the box was just plain disappointing...especially at these price points. The 4367 walked all over the L100 Classic in terms of low end and high frequency brilliance, but when it came time hear the music, the L100 walked all over it's bigger sibling.

The Everest DD66000 was closest passive horn system I had ever heard that didn't sound like a horn. The K2 was impressive as well. Midrange articulation and imaging excellent.

I'm not saying I have golden ears. I'm giving my perspective of what great speakers should present without trying to be polite. I want my speakers to be honest...warts and all...or gloriousness and all. JBL/Harman/Samsung has too much competition to simply rest on it's legacy reputation.

[rusty jefferson]

Hi Ian,
..... Hearing the tribute L100 soundstage and imaging with impressive room placement forward of the speakers, then hearing the same pieces of music retreat into the box was just plain disappointing...especially at these price points. .......

I'm curious about this comment on the soundstage. The "image" of a live recorded group/orchestra (simple 2 microphone method) should have all the performers "placed" behind the loudspeakers, with no sound appearing to be coming from the loudspeakers. The idea being the speakers were placed where the microphones were, and therefore the music is behind them.

My old 4311s had the classic "mid-forward center image" similar to the 604s (they were apparently designed to mimic) where you feel like the singer is 3 ft in front of the plane of the speakers, rather than behind them, or on plane with them. Is this what you're referring to? Just curious.

[edgewound]

I'm curious about this comment on the soundstage. The "image" of a live recorded group/orchestra (simple 2 microphone method) should have all the performers "placed" behind the loudspeakers, with no sound appearing to be coming from the loudspeakers. The idea being the speakers were placed where the microphones were, and therefore the music is behind them.

My old 4311s had the classic "mid-forward center image" similar to the 604s (they were apparently designed to mimic) where you feel like the singer is 3 ft in front of the plane of the speakers, rather than behind them, or on plane with them. Is this what you're referring to? Just curious.

Not really.

Mic placement has everything to do with soundstage and image. Two mics placed above an orchestra or small band will have very little "soundstage", other than left or right. Two mics placed in front of the performance can give a depth perception of the soundstage and an image of how the band is set up.

The voicing of two different speakers can alter this same soundstage, given the exact same amplifier and input source as I heard at the CES demo.

[Ian Mackenzie]

We don't often hear you speak your mind. I love it.

[rusty jefferson]

Not really.
......Two mics placed in front of the performance can give a depth perception of the soundstage and an image of how the band is set up.
Exactly what I'm talking about. Sorry if I wasn't clear. In this example, the music should be heard as coming from behind the loudspeakers, not from them, or in front of them. Here's a good test track for anyone interested.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/istereophilei-test-cd-3-tutorial-tracks-microphone-techniques



......The voicing of two different speakers can alter this same soundstage, given the exact same amplifier and input source as I heard at the CES demo.
Of course. That's what I was referring to with the 4311 example, which was designed to have the mid forward center image and the reason I asked if that's what you were hearing.


.... Hearing the tribute L100 soundstage and imaging with impressive room placement forward of the speakers, ......
This just sounded as if "all" the music was presented in front of the loudspeakers, not just a center image as with the 4311. I was just looking for clarity. I've never heard a loudspeaker present a complete soundstage image in front of themselves.