A larger room, a pair of 4313B and maybe the need to upgrade?

[Malefoda]

Hi gents,

my brother who have, like me, a pair of 4313B, is now enjoying a 45 square meters room, add to that that its ceiling is at an average of 3 meter high. Quite a large room to fill with a bookshelf like the 4313B. Receiver is a Yamaha R-S700.
I wonder if the bass reflex works at its best with that very deep room which is in fact much deeper as another room is straight after with no door and a large opening. You guessed it, bass are shy.
Can the 4313B play at their best in large rooms or should we start looking for say a L65 or another big gun?

Thanks!
Matthieu

[gasfan]

That's a rather large room for a bookshelf speaker. You could implement anything out there. The larger the better :).

[Mr. Widget]

The 4313B is a wonderful speaker... sitting atop a meter bridge in a control room or at home in a smaller room. You need a full sized speaker for your full sized room.

As to recommendations? That is too wide a question. But as gasman suggests, look at big. The L65 wouldn't be on my short list in your situation.


Widget

[grumpy]

I'd go 15" on the low end, L300/4333x/4430 or larger, top end type perhaps dependent on what else is in the room (more directional if hard walls, then you have some chance of control... less directional ala 443x if there is some room control/absorption)

Certainly M2s or Everests would be fun.

[BMWCCA]

Budget??

My usual answer is L7 but not sure how many made it across the Atlantic. Cheap, fun, accurate, cheap, room-filling sound.

[Malefoda]

So everyone agrees about the small 4313B vs real big room (mine does wonders in my 20sqm room). And the need of real big speakers...
AFAIK L7 weren't sold here. Maybe TI6K or TI10K? Or even another brand...
No budget right now, he won't buy it next week but we can think about the future if we win the lottery ;) We keep in mind 15" then. But let me guess, these need beefy amps...

[hjames]

So everyone agrees about the small 4313B vs real big room (mine does wonders in my 20sqm room). And the need of real big speakers...
AFAIK L7 weren't sold here. Maybe TI6K or TI10K? Or even another brand...
No budget right now, he won't buy it next week but we can think about the future if we win the lottery ;) We keep in mind 15" then. But let me guess, these need beefy amps...
Kind of depends on what you buy, and what level of volume you prefer.

I had a pair of customized L200s - 15 woofer, horn based midrange, 2405 slot tweeter - and while they were not deafening, I did enjoy them with a 65w/ch Jolida tube amp ... Most folks would go 150/200w/ch just for the firm solid bass, even if they don't crank it "stupid loud", as Zilch would say ...

[BMWCCA]

We keep in mind 15" then. But let me guess, these need beefy amps...
I run my 18s (4345) on a 200-watt Crown PS-400. They never break a sweat and I've never seen the IOC lights even blink when I play them "stupid loud".

[Mr. Widget]

We keep in mind 15" then. But let me guess, these need beefy amps...This is a common misconception. Large speakers are typically more sensitive than more compact models and therefore often will work better with smaller amplifiers than their more compact cousins.

I don't know much about your Yamaha amplifier, but it is rated at 100 wpc. It will likely do reasonably well with most JBLs.


Widget

[martin_wu99]

So everyone agrees about the small 4313B vs real big room (mine does wonders in my 20sqm room). And the need of real big speakers...
AFAIK L7 weren't sold here. Maybe TI6K or TI10K? Or even another brand...
No budget right now, he won't buy it next week but we can think about the future if we win the lottery ;) We keep in mind 15" then. But let me guess, these need beefy amps...

For such big room,15'' is a nessary,to play JBL 15'' well,you need at least 200w/ch amps, push harder, get more:D

[Malefoda]

This is a common misconception. Large speakers are typically more sensitive than more compact models and therefore often will work better with smaller amplifiers than their more compact cousins.

I don't know much about your Yamaha amplifier, but it is rated at 100 wpc. It will likely do reasonably well with most JBLs.


Widget

Hi Widget, yep I did not notice that they were more efficient. Anyway a 15" cheaper than a L300 is the L200... Pro versions 4333 and 4320?
Have to read about these and find used ones cheap, which can be impossible. Here in France we have a contender for theses classic JBLs, the brand Cabasse... will look there also.
Anyone heard some big ATCs and how they compare?

[martin_wu99]

Hi Widget, yep I did not notice that they were more efficient. Anyway a 15" cheaper than a L300 is the L200... Pro versions 4333 and 4320?
Have to read about these and find used ones cheap, which can be impossible. Here in France we have a contender for theses classic JBLs, the brand Cabasse... will look there also.
Anyone heard some big ATCs and how they compare?
Big ATC is not so easy to drive as JBL do,ATC is more smoother than JBL,its mid-rang is the best ,very suitable for playing vocal and volin:D

[Ruediger]

... in the same house? Bass transmission can lead to troubles. This can limit the allowed playback volume.

Ruediger

[Malefoda]

Stand-alone house! Lucky him... BTW, he said he is using the room in half: half kitchen and half living room, meaning that his listening couch is at 3m from the 4313Bs wich are at about half a meter from the back wall. No need to stuupid-high levels in the kitchen part, just loud enough on the couch.
Maybe I'm wrong but I understand that bass response, even at 3m, is linked to the ability of the 10" driver/front port and enclosure to load the huge mass of air there, and a 15" will be at ease on that. True? I also understand that perceived volume at listening position is less because less reflections and more loss in air far away.
If all my statements are true then 15" is required. If at a close 3m from speakers it is less problematic then maybe a punchy 12", à la 4312A, can add what is missing. Or a sub...

Anyway we will try to measure and correct room response, start savings...

[Malefoda]

We've narrowed the choices to:
L200/4320/4325/4331, L300/4333, S3100 MkI/MkII and Array 1400.
Price wise the 4320 say the S8 are the cheapest, then cheap also the S3100. Other a double the price. As for me I then feel the S3100 is the bargain here.
BTW, are some in need for complex amping to sing and other easy load to drive with an classic integrated?

[Malefoda]

Hi gents,
we've also been advised that L150A will fill the bill, is this a sleeper?

[grumpy]

If you were particularly fond of the 4313, the L150A isn’t nearly as much of a change as some of your other candidates. This was my first real/new JBL set and I still have them. They have a nice unexaggerated low end that is also extended (perhaps not as much “punch” as some like). They do wake up with a larger amp (100-200w).

They also require maintaining four foam surrounds and the foam plug behind the tweeter dome.

I like them more than the L112 and maybe as much as the L96 (I may well be biased in my fondness for the L150A and that series)

[BMWCCA]

Hi gents,
we've also been advised that L150A will fill the bill, is this a sleeper?
Well, they certainly won't eclipse the 4333 or the 1400 Array. Should be considerably cheaper though.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Stand-alone house! Lucky him... BTW, he said he is using the room in half: half kitchen and half living room, meaning that his listening couch is at 3m from the 4313Bs wich are at about half a meter from the back wall. No need to stuupid-high levels in the kitchen part, just loud enough on the couch.
Maybe I'm wrong but I understand that bass response, even at 3m, is linked to the ability of the 10" driver/front port and enclosure to load the huge mass of air there, and a 15" will be at ease on that. True? I also understand that perceived volume at listening position is less because less reflections and more loss in air far away.
If all my statements are true then 15" is required. If at a close 3m from speakers it is less problematic then maybe a punchy 12", à la 4312A, can add what is missing. Or a sub...

Anyway we will try to measure and correct room response, start savings...

It’s more about your brothers expectations ?

Is he going to play loud rock music or background music?

The location of the listening position and the loudspeaker is going to dominate any subject differences overall if he is going to be listening at 3 metres .

The larger woofers will go louder but not always lower.

Bigger amps and bigger loudspeakers are going to sound more dynamic but not necessarily clearer.

A bass reflex design is not room dependent unless it’s rear ported but will nearly always sound more dynamic than a similar size sealed design.

The larger XPL series if you can find one is a possibility

They are more refined than most of the JBL consumer systems

Otherwise if a classic look and sound is preferred the L300 a contender

There are always some nice systems on the Japanese auction sites

[Ed Kreamer]

Greetings from the far flung marshes of Washington State,

Have you considered adding a "sub woofer" ( I dislike that term! )? Particularly if you like the 4313b? The 4313b is a great speaker and if augmented with two well designed and placed 15 inch very low bass units, it would probably fill

the bill. You could use your present amplifier or better yet, a separate mono amp. You'd retain the performance and sound of the 4313b and free it from vlf duty. I have done this with 4410,s and two Altec 411's for low bass, crossing over

at 40 Hz. My room however is not as large as the one being discussed,and you may require a higher crossover point.

I pose the query: Is there such a thing as too much bass??

Have fun

Ed

[badman]

I pose the query: Is there such a thing as too much bass??

Have fun

Ed

There can be too much bass from a balance perspective. From a displacement available perspective, if you use heavy high-damping suspensions, then too many drivers/too large a driver can lower the excursion demands to the point that these drivers actually sound WORSE with less power, though with JBL pro style drivers that's not really an issue. Outside of poorly setup (unbalanced bass) or on overscaled bass system designed for high driver displacement but operated at low driver displacement, more capability is definitely impossible (disregarding domestic space/ feng shui issues)

I use a single sub with 4x12" and 2 additional subs with 2x12". It's capable of more than I ever use, but the drivers are not the car-audio looking types that sound bad at low level, so it's pretty amazing stuff.

[Ed Kreamer]

I was being facetious.

[Malefoda]

Well the idea of the sub does not seduce him, already asked ;)
A pair of speakers, hook it, move them a bit and voilà!
Maybe the 250Ti can be in the list, but rear port is a bit scary (how much from the wall?) and the need of a power plant for they are said to be greedy.

[Malefoda]

FWIW we settled to JBK S3100 and Infinity Kappa 9.2 now, far cheaper than L300, Array 1400 here.
And maybecYamaha P5000S as power amp.

[Malefoda]

Hi guys,
he's ready to pull the trigger on a pair of mint 4430. If I've ready what's to be read about, the only drawback is the lack HF, annoying for youngsters (which we ain't no more).
To be amplified with Hypex on the passive XO, but right now the 100W Yamaha.
Before money's vanishing, are there "flaws" we should be aware of?

Thanks!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Just be aware that if you have large flat walls or glass the 100 x 100 bi radial can make the presentation diffuse.

[Malefoda]

Hi Ian,
seller confirms that large "echoing" rooms does not cope very well with 4430. Time for room treatment!

[Ian Mackenzie]

It’s a nice system but was a pro monitor for a treated environment.

I’d try it and even put them in a corner and toe them in to the listening position.

I used the 2344 horn with a 2122H for a while and liked it.

Great on jazz. Brings back recent memories of the jazz clubs in a Paris.

Worth bi amping with a small class A amp.

[Malefoda]

Done, thanks guys for the help provided :applaud:

Side question for me, are these 4430's caps polyester/Mylar/MKT bypassed by polypropylene/MKP? If yes... room for future upgarde :D

[Ian Mackenzie]

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3134%20Network.pdf


Already bypassed.

You could do the charge coupled crossover which is an improvement.
That would entail a new build of the crossover network.

A Tad 2002/2001 compression driver has been substituted for the 2425 compression driver.
An expensive upgrade but the results are apparently impressive.

[martin_wu99]

Hi guys,
he's ready to pull the trigger on a pair of mint 4430. If I've ready what's to be read about, the only drawback is the lack HF, annoying for youngsters (which we ain't no more).
To be amplified with Hypex on the passive XO, but right now the 100W Yamaha.
Before money's vanishing, are there "flaws" we should be aware of?

Thanks!
I think 100W Yamaha can not match 4430,you may find more better and more powerful amp for 4430,don't waste your 4430,very good speaker.
How to match a speaker is a kind of art.

[martin_wu99]

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3134%20Network.pdf


Already bypassed.

You could do the charge coupled crossover which is an improvement.
That would entail a new build of the crossover network.

A Tad 2002/2001 compression driver has been substituted for the 2425 compression driver.
An expensive upgrade but the results are apparently impressive.
Very good suggestion!can 2425 be replaced directly without any modification of crossover?
Do you think that 4430 still need UHF(077)while replace 2420 with TAD2002?
Is there any even more better drivers than TAD 2002 for 2425 replacement?

[Ian Mackenzie]

The answer is yet to be determined.

None of this stuff us ever plug and play. It’s just isn’t and if you were going to spend $3000 plus on drivers you would want to optimise the response and the crossover.

The Radian Be 1 inch driver might fit the horn and it might work but how well is an unknown. I don’t think adding a 2405 driver is necessary or desirable in this type of system.

The thing is the 2425 is a diy friendly driver while l have heard the Tad2001 is not.

There is some conjecture on whether Be diaphragms work subjectively well in the top octave. I don’t have a problem there with my Tad4003 on my Bill Woods AH700 large conical horns but the AH700 is one of the best horns money can buy. A lot of this kind of discussion comes down to interpretation of what diy people are doing in their own space.

So when someone says you must do this and you do that l go really! An example is claiming the 2405 must be used on top of the 2344 bi radial.

[Malefoda]

So many switch contacts waiting to fail... thanks for the document Ian.
I see crossover's parts as important as the ones you'll find in previous gear: if your DAC and your amp have top quality filter/coupling caps, why keep lower quality (and nobody can deny a MKT does less than a MKP, that's a technical fact (one can deny hearing it I agree)) in the audio stream and -worst- as a bottleneck before the drivers? And I've experienced, each time, a real gain in swapping MKT and/or MKT//MKP with MKP and/or MKP//Polystyrene. And yes you're right, all that being CCed in my bluties, my 4313Ti ;)
Zonker wondering:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34407-Recapping-4430s
Seems these mexican-made caps are MKT. Will read more about them, maybe find used XOs and upgrade them so we can keep OEM ones. And keep the idea of the better TAD for my brother's next years of fun =)
Martin,
the 100W mass market Yamaha is just there to wait, will produce some music anyway. At the end (months coming) are planned an (an or a?) Hypex power amp (being a nCore 400/500 or at worst an UcD400/700, choice will depend on how much power needed, 180/300W...) and a home-brew DAC à la Weiss DAC202. That's why I want the last drop of juice not being wasted in some lesser Mylar caps ;)
Will share results here.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yep see my other posts in that thread.

I buillt my network for these 2344 horns with Hovland capacitors and was happy with the results. I use Pass Labs amps and a pro DAC so my subjective impressions may not necessarily align with others who use different equipment.

[Ian Mackenzie]

When you have done the passive crossover send me a pm and l will help you on the amp for the horn and an active crossover

[martin_wu99]

The answer is yet to be determined.

None of this stuff us ever plug and play. It’s just isn’t and if you were going to spend $3000 plus on drivers you would want to optimise the response and the crossover.

The Radian Be 1 inch driver might fit the horn and it might work but how well is an unknown. I don’t think adding a 2405 driver is necessary or desirable in this type of system.

The thing is the 2425 is a diy friendly driver while l have heard the Tad2001 is not.

There is some conjecture on whether Be diaphragms work subjectively well in the top octave. I don’t have a problem there with my Tad4003 on my Bill Woods AH700 large conical horns but the AH700 is one of the best horns money can buy. A lot of this kind of discussion comes down to interpretation of what diy people are doing in their own space.

So when someone says you must do this and you do that l go really! An example is claiming the 2405 must be used on top of the 2344 bi radial.
You think TAD2001 is the best solution for 2425?someone think 2425+2405 is better than TAD2001:confused::dont-know::blink:

[Ian Mackenzie]

Anyone is entitled to their opinion and what they do is entirely up to them.

But my comments above stand.

You have to appreciate the whole excerise is about creating an illusion of the original recorded event.

Everyone has a different view of what that illusion should sound like so it’s hardly surprising to hear about the add on modifications people make to a loudspeaker.

The thing is this system was in production for a long time and Jbl never sort to significantly upgrade the design. A lot of industry professionals use that system and l imagine Jbl would have received their feedback if the addition of a 2405 was required.

If someone thinks it needs a super tweeter they might be loosing hi frequency hearing or they might realise the 4430 is not for them.

[Malefoda]

Hi fellows,

back with few questions. It's all related with some harshness and annoying sibilance. The previous speakers, with a 066 and another with 035Ti had none. More or less highs but no harshness.
The amp is still the 100WPC Yamaha, I know this does not help, but that receiver (R-S700) is said to be "soft", no highs problem. But who know when stressed to death how it performs...
The room is still big, with large windows and not all the planned furnitures. It sounds (the room) on the bright and echoing side, does that bring the sound to be harsh? I thought I will just mess with the image.
The compression... here I don't know, aluminum or titanium... that last one is said "harsher", but does that mean "harsh" when the aluminum is not or just "brings a tad of harshness"? And worst, seems there is a foam dampener in there, if the driver is the same which left the factory more than 30 years ago, is it rotten and no more dampening?
I understand it can be a mix of all this, but what makes more sense to you?

Thanks!
Matthieu

[Ian Mackenzie]

Replace the foam in the rear cap. You can use foam or felt.

Provided the diaphragms are not old and fatigued there should be no harshness.

I suspect this cause is the 100 x 100 dispersion of six surfaces.

If the highs are spread across the wider area with equal level then this is a possibility where the room reverberation time, absorption and diffuse qualities vary with frequency. Conventional high frequency direct radiators start to fall off or narrow in dispersion at a wavelength equal to the diameter of the cone or dome typically.

[Malefoda]

Provided the diaphragms are not old and fatigued there should be no harshness.

Hi Ian,
you mean that can also be worn out? And lead to nasty sound? Oh my, sounds like there is some maintenance on the compression then. Are there any papers on that or JBL used to let them "degrade", à la 035Ti and was happy with a 10 years life span part, then trash and buy again?

Thanks

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yes or dirt in the compression driver voice coil gap.

Depending on where they’ve been used they diaphragms could need replacing and the gap cleaned.

Somewhere in the technical section this is an article on this.

I would pull the driver and find out what diaphragm is currently in there first?

Get the compression drivers serviced and possibly replace the diaphragms.

This is relatively common problem due to age. It might have the aluminium D8R2421 diamond surround diaphragms which were not as robust as the titanium version that replaced the aluminium ones.

If it’s one thing l have learned don’t assume anything is working 100 % with a used Jbl system or in fact any used loudspeakers or drivers.

[Malefoda]

Thanks for the informations and kind answers, much appreciated.

[Ian Mackenzie]

No problem.

It’s good to see the JBL legacy is alive and well in France.

[ngccglp]

Hi Widget, yep I did not notice that they were more efficient. Anyway a 15" cheaper than a L300 is the L200... Pro versions 4333 and 4320?
Have to read about these and find used ones cheap, which can be impossible. Here in France we have a contender for theses classic JBLs, the brand Cabasse... will look there also.
Anyone heard some big ATCs and how they compare?

While ATCs have models that uses one or two 15” woofers, they are voiced very differently from JBLs. If you are used to the jbl’s bass, the ATC might sound like there is no bass on first listen. But after you get acquainted with the ATC house sound, you will appreciate why they are studios’ choice for monitors. You really could hear bass notes clearly as individual notes.

[Malefoda]

TBH that's my own choice now, I use and love my 4313Bs (4313Ti...) for they are no 4311s which were not bad but not what I want. Tight and light-speed bass impact, no boomy, clear, neutral, dynamic. I want the same but faster and clearer. And that way leads me to ATC's SCM50... crazy prices even used. I guess I will enjoy my 4313B for years ;)

[Ian Mackenzie]

If you have a diy orientation you might be able to roll your own for considerably less.

In the uk 🇬🇧 the Volt brand makes a range of suitable drivers including a 2 inch and a 3 inch Dome midrange with high sensitivity and power ratings. They also make excellent woofers used in the top PCM studio monitors.

If it were me l would still want the Jbl bass so put a Jbl 2234 or better still a 2216 Nd woofer in a 140 litre Bass reflex enclosure with the 3 inch Volt dome mid and a Scan Revalator dome tweeter. Tri amp it up and enjoy. I have tested the 2216 Nd at home and it has many desired qualities you refer to.

The reason for the 15 inch woofer is there is only so much a 10 inch woofer driver can do before distortion becomes an issue and they invariably suffer from power compression. In other works a 90 dB spl loudspeaker will always sound like a bookshelf loudspeaker. Speed and transients can only co exist if the loudspeaker has sufficient sensitivity and low power compression. Increasing sensitivity mean less power is converted to heat which causes power compression. The 2216 Nd in addition to impressive dual voice call differential motor design has negative temperature co efficient voice coil wire. So the driver kicks hard which is what you want.

If your not going to play it really loud the 3 inch dome mid range maybe what you are looking for. The horns are generally regarded as cleaner and less harsh at high spls as used by many studio engineers for recording pop music. Given your in domestic situation a dome mid is an option.

[Malefoda]

OOT but I have no way to wood work and if I ask a carpenter here it will cost me the price of an ATC! BTW, I have no plan (read no money) to change right now. And some TOTL Troel Gravesen are very tempting... but again, wood work. My room is too small but I was in open baffle before, well done it's jaw-dropping. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/OBL-15.htm maybe back to that later...

[Malefoda]

Back to the harshness of the 4430, we will change the diaphragm and avoid the foam for some felt. Will cover the whole cup, but how thick the felt should be? We have plenty of 3mm thick one or 5mm.
Side note Ian, that DIY is bugging me now (damn you! ;)), and it seems this British kit does the job! https://www.wilmslowaudio.co.uk/k50-monitor-1619-p.asp

[Mikool35]

hi, did someone made a comparison between JBL D8R2425 and Radian 1225-8 ?

[Mikool35]

Is there anybody out there ?

[turnitdown]

Read Zonker's review for that diaghragm on the Parts Express site.

[Mikool35]

Turnitdown, thank you.

I report here zonker92's review :
If you have speakers that use JBL 2425 or 2426 horn drivers, you probably know that the diaphragms are titanium, and that the earlier 2421 Alnico drivers had aluminum diaphragms. The AL diaphragms are sought-after, and widely considered to sound smoother, with less distortion, than the Tis. But unfortunately, their surrounds are also AL and over time they fatigue and can fracture. They also handle less power, which is why JBL switched to Ti, following a very embarrassing public fiasco where a bunch of their PS systems failed at the Academy Awards (R), or so I have read.This situation would leave one with a choice of smoother, but weaker and more expensive (AL), or harsher, but more robust (Ti). Miraculously, though, Radian has stepped in with an AL diaphragm that has a robust Mylar (R) surround, combinging the best of both worlds. I just installed them in my JBL 4430s, with 2425 drivers, and the installation was a basic drop in. (word of warning: Control all ferrous metal fasteners and wires to prevent damage to the diaphragm from magnetic attraction, and replace the gooey foam in the back cap with felt. Also pay careful attention to the order in which the fasteners and terminals are stacked in terms of rubber and metal parts, and maintain the OEM polarity, with green or red indicating positive on the diaphragm).The DC resistance of the diaphragms is about 3.1 ohms (stock Tis was 4.1) but based on what I;m hearing and the graphs published by Radian, the output seems to be very equivalent. As compared to the Tis, though sound seems smoother and less compressed at high output levels; it really opens up these speakers and smooths them out. And if you call up Radian, as I did, you may be able to speak directly to the engineer who builds these things; he gave me tons of interesting details regarding their construction, and I gather that their team includes ex-JBL and Altec engingeers who continue to build drivers in Orange County, CA, and Radian claims that it it the only remaining US-based driver manufacturer in the world (!).In sum, I say, there are a remarkable value.

So, it seems to be a good alternative.

[turnitdown]

Yes, that's the one I referred to. They seem like a viable replacement and I'll be getting a pair of those to replace my aged/aging ones in the not too distant future.

[Mikool35]

Please, let us know if you replace them and what you think of the result.