TAD 2404 Build

[richluvsound]

Its been a while folks ....

Many of you know Ari .... He's helped many of us get those components we've drooled over . He helped me get my 1500AL a few years ago .

Ari and I talk on the phone quite a bit and during one of these conversations he declares ownership of TAD's rare and highly prized parts for the 2404 studio monitor . I've been trying to help him sell the parts after he decided to go another direction ,but after 6 months no one has shown any serious interest ..... So then we decided to put them in cabinets to try and sweeten the deal . Now he's seen them he's not so sure he want s to part with them .

Theres still the grills to make and the stands ( in the same design and material as the speaker ) Some labels made by the Paolo in Italy . He did a wonderful job of the TAD 2251 project I did last year .

[Earl K]

Nice Rich!

I love the skid rails on the back of the cabinet ( protecting the crossover parts ) .

How about some more pics ( please ) ?

:)

[Mr. Widget]

Yes, beautiful!

More please! :bouncy:


Widget

[grumpy]

Good to see evidence you're still at it :)
Cool project!

[richluvsound]

A few more of the build .

I don't think I have them hooked up correctly .... and no schematic .Any ideas would be greatly appreciated .

[pos]

Very nice indeed Rich!
The 2404 is the pinnacle of TAD technology and know-how :bouncy:

[Earl K]

A few more of the build .

I don't think I have them hooked up correctly .... and no schematic .Any ideas would be greatly appreciated .

Hi Rich,

I think your message is a bit too cryptic ( as a proper cry for help ).

Descriptions of ( initial impressions/disappointments ) are helpful ( assuming you can't provide any response captures ).

Ian ( Macka ) at one time had a network schematic for the double woofer model ( I'd suggest contacting him ).

Did you build the horns ( or are they someone elses handiwork) ?

:)

[richluvsound]

Hi Rich,

I think your message is a bit too cryptic ( as a proper cry for help ).

Descriptions of ( initial impressions/disappointments ) are helpful ( assuming you can't provide any response captures ).

Ian ( Macka ) at one time had a network schematic for the double woofer model ( I'd suggest contacting him ).

Did you build the horns ( or are they someone elses handiwork) ?

:)

The horns are original Earl .... The crossover is completely different to the TN 4 ... I've emailed GT sound for advice . I don't understand why they stopped making them .....even with the hook up issue I can hear what they do .

[grumpy]

In the category of "I saw it on the Interwebz, so it must be true"...
Googling for 2404 images to compare, the upper/inset panel terminals may be missing some jumpers.
Having a valid schematic/wiring-diagram would indeed make things simpler.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi

The TN4 is a 36 Db low pass on the Tad woofer

The high pass is 12 Db

The horn has a series and a parrellel trap and a Lpad fixed

There is a mild bump in the horn response

I never had a chance to test it on live drivers

There are other ways to set up the horn

I would look at an active DSP these days

Beautiful work as always

Rich, you are a true craftsman

[richluvsound]

Hey ,

how can the diaphragm measure correctly and sound like its fried ? HELP ?


Richard

[Ian Mackenzie]

Have you checked the voltage drive of the crossover on the Tad driver?

It might be going too low

Suggest you inspect the diaphragm.

Are you the original owner?

[hlaari]

Bad news!

there look´s like on of the Td-4003 diaphragms is broken, there is a hole in the surround:(

I was going to sell the speakers and get some profit but it look´s like now I will get a big hit out of this
I have ask Speaker Exchange about the price for new Td-4003 dias and the price is 2200 USD for single and more than 3600 USD for single Td-4003 driver

this is very bad because Richard have made a great job in his work on the the enclosure

there is unlikely at I will sell them now, the most likely is that at I will get all the parts shipped back to me with the beautiful 2404 enclosures and the project will go on hold until I have got new diaphragms for the Td-4003 drivers

[hlaari]

I have send mail to the seller who sold me the driver parts
he said at all the parts he sold to me were 100% in good shape

the best way for him is to send me two new Td-4003 diaphragms

[Ian Mackenzie]

If you were my neighbour you could borrow mine (4003) so you could at least hear those beautiful loudspeakers go after all the work that has been done.

[hlaari]

If you were my neighbour you could borrow mine (4003) so you could at least hear those beautiful loudspeakers go after all the work that has been done.



thank you for good offer:)
we wait and see what the seller of drivers will do


are you using them in your system and what kind of speaker are you using them in?

[hlaari]

here are the answers from the seller GT-sound http://www.gt-sound.com/



HI Ari Oskarsson

Is it alright for a while, how are you?

Did you finish the Speaker box?

TD-4003

① DC-7, 5 Ω is normal value.
AC measurement will result in 12 to 13 Ω.

② I checked the sound at the time of shipping, but there was no
abnormality.

We opened the back chamber of DRIVER UNIT of TAD, GTS, and diaphragm
I will not remove it.

1. It does not have jigs that make precise height adjustment when
setting again. I have a TAD service.

2. The material of the diaphragm is beryllium and it seems there is a
danger to the human body.

Best regards
K.Goto


I am 100% sure he did not opened the back cap

[richluvsound]

The back had not been opened for a few years .... It wasn't opened last year . GT.Sound ....

[johanwholst]

How would a damage like this occur? It does not look like the typical over excursion.

Anyways, I would expect that used drivers with a price tag like this to be seriously tested with tone generator and distortion measurements before shipping.
Hope the seller is resolving this issue..,

[Ian Mackenzie]

thank you for good offer:)
we wait and see what the seller of drivers will do


are you using them in your system and what kind of speaker are you using them in?

I prefer not to publicise my lunicy too often ....LOL

Edit : Diy version of this
(Image C/- Oswald Mill Audio)

[hlaari]

I prefer not to publicise my lunicy....LOL


No problem:)

I think at the best way for me is to send my TAD Td-4003 to this company http://www.hornstudio.de/tad.htm in Germany for repair
I will not sell my TAD 2404 monitors they are going to cost me to much so I will not sell them

[dn92]

How did I miss this thread !


TN-4 has nothing to do with DN-2404 network. TN-4 was for the range of TAD PA loudspeakers, crossing at 800Hz 36dB/oct for LF and 12dB/oct for HF with no EQ at all for the horn (we can then expect that the corresponding TH-4371 horn did not require any EQ). There are low variation in TAD crossover network design, TN-4 is almost a shifted to 800Hz version of TN-1. Furthermore TN-4 is ONLY for twin bass unit versions of TAD speakers and unlike the documentation cannot be used with a single woofer. I had the opportunity to play (and do some measurements of the components) with TN-4 and I know what I'm talking about.

It can be nice to have more information about the 2404 network, LF section being probably close to TN-2 LF network. TL-1601c can be seen as a modern version of TL-1601a. Is it possible to get values and schematic ?

In TSM2 (seems to be about the same volume), bass reflex port is tuned to 32Hz. 28Hz from formulas is a bit lower especially because the three inductances of the LF crossover (look to the shaped plastic of the network, on the right is the LFpart with three inductances and the long box is the place of capacitors such as in TN-4) will have a resistance value that will modify a bit Qts of 1601c and you'll have to adapt port length to get what you want in terms of tuning frequency. The best is to measure the impedance for adjusting.

I ordered TAD recone kits to Phase Akustik (Hornstudio.de), and the service was OK.

PS: We have plans one day to spend vacations in Iceland, this will probably place this higher in the trip priority list if there is a possibility to visit

[dn92]

I will not sell my TAD 2404 monitors they are going to cost me to much so I will not sell them

These are speakers for life. I've no intention neither to sell my TAD 2402/TSM2 replicas.

[hlaari]

These are speakers for life. I've no intention neither to sell my TAD 2402/TSM2 replicas.


Actually I need to choose between my S9900 project and the TAD´s I can´t keep both :(
there is nearly impossible to sell the S9900 but my TAD 2404 with new Td-4003 dias easier to sell for good price

[Dr.db]

@ richluvsound:

It would be very kind of you if you could help me out with some informations on your build :)

Your bass enclosure has an internal net volume of 171 liters with two ports with 10cm diameter and 10cm of length, correct ?
Which woofer-modell have you mounted inside?

I own a pair of TAD TL-1603 and have a very similar enclosure size.
But my simulation-programm WinISD tells me I need a portlenght of 30cm!
Do our woofers differ that much or is my simulation-programm rubish?


Thanks a lot for your help,
Olaf

[dn92]

When trying to calculate the TAD 2402 port length by using WinISD I never succeeded to find the port length used by TAD 105mm for a 100mm diameter (fb 32Hz for 135L for a single TL-1601a).

Instead I did as it was in the plan, measured Fb, and it was working perfectly

The proposed formula written in a previous post, should be tried on my example to see if it allows to get the right port length.

[Dr.db]

Thanks a lot for your reply!

Are you certain the original ports used in the TAD 2402 are 105mm in length and 100mm in diameter? Is the internal net volume really as low as 135liters? The enclosure looks bigger and my guess would have been around 150liters or more...
Have you owned this enclosure or where did you find these info´s? :)

My TL-1603 seems to have pretty similar TSP´s to the TL-1601a in the 2402 enclosure according to TAD´s specs. So it should behave similar in the same enclosure I guess...

[dn92]

TL-1603 TS parameters are the same as the 1601b which requires a bit larger volume than 1601a.

Two ports 100mm diameter and length of 105mm is was is written on plans available on Internet. Taking the Port length formula from the previous page, makes Vb of 129L matching two ports of 100mm diameter and 105mm length for 32Hz.
135L is the volume I estimated from the plans, some people are talking about 125L, so 129L is a credible value, between the two of them.
I tried two ports of 100mm length of 105mm this on my exact clones of 2402 (missing dimensions can be easily deduced, panels thickness is 22mm, bracing 44x60mm) and it was working well, unlike port length found using WinISD.

[dn92]

Actually I need to choose between my S9900 project and the TAD´s I can´t keep both :(
there is nearly impossible to sell the S9900 but my TAD 2404 with new Td-4003 dias easier to sell for good price

Keep the TADs, otherwise you'll regret.

Why is it impossible to sell the S9900 ? Should be easier, anyone knows (even my kids know JBL, isn't it the name of a small bluetooth cube playing the music from phones) the brand name JBL.

[Dr.db]

First of all, sorry for asking these things again, I hope I don´t misuse this thread!



In TSM2 (...), bass reflex port is tuned to 32Hz. 28Hz from formulas is a bit lower especially because the three inductances of the LF crossover ..... will have a resistance value that will modify a bit Qts of 1601c and you'll have to adapt port length to get what you want in terms of tuning frequency.


So the formula didn´t take the three inductances into account, right? So the 28hz tuning is without the crossover and in reality tuning frequency will raise from 28hz to 32hz because of the resistance of the inductors?
If I run the woofer without the passive crossover, I would have to shorten the ports a bit to reach a 32hz tuning, right?

.

Sorry if I might mix up on things, but the thread-starter used a volume of 171 liters in the formula rather than your 135 liters.
That´s why he gets 28hz tuning and you get 32hz tuning with the same port-length?
Or does the 2404 enclosure uses a different woofer-type?

.

I´ve looked at this page for the specs on the TAD woofers:
http://www.technicalaudiodevices.com/lf-units
QTS is 0,34 for TL-1601a and TL-1603, but is 0,31 for TL-1601b. FS and VAS is very similar on all of them.
That´s why I was thinking 1603 is closer to 1601a than to 1601b...

Btw; can I simply copy the value of the End correction factor or how do I determine this figure for the formula for the 1603 ?

.

Subtracting the panel thickness of 22mm from the outside dimension, I get 202,5 liters for the internal volume for the 2402 enclosure. Of course bracing, driver displacement and midrange-horn displacement has to be subtracted of that 202,5 liters, but my guess would´ve been this could result in 20-30 liters. To result in a netvolume of ~130 liters the insides must occupy nearly 70 liters! Is the 2402 braced that heavily?
Don´t get me wrong, I do not want to argue with you or doubt knowledge as you have build a copy yourself, I just want to understand.

[dn92]

First of all, sorry for asking these things again, I hope I don´t misuse this thread!



So the formula didn´t take the three inductances into account, right? So the 28hz tuning is without the crossover and in reality tuning frequency will raise from 28hz to 32hz because of the resistance of the inductors?
If I run the woofer without the passive crossover, I would have to shorten the ports a bit to reach a 32hz tuning, right?

.

Sorry if I might mix up on things, but the thread-starter used a volume of 171 liters in the formula rather than your 135 liters.
That´s why he gets 28hz tuning and you get 32hz tuning with the same port-length?
Or does the 2404 enclosure uses a different woofer-type?

.

I´ve looked at this page for the specs on the TAD woofers:
http://www.technicalaudiodevices.com/lf-units
QTS is 0,34 for TL-1601a and TL-1603, but is 0,31 for TL-1601b. FS and VAS is very similar on all of them.
That´s why I was thinking 1603 is closer to 1601a than to 1601b...

Btw; can I simply copy the value of the End correction factor or how do I determine this figure for the formula for the 1603 ?

.

Subtracting the panel thickness of 22mm from the outside dimension, I get 202,5 liters for the internal volume for the 2402 enclosure. Of course bracing, driver displacement and midrange-horn displacement has to be subtracted of that 202,5 liters, but my guess would´ve been this could result in 20-30 liters. To result in a netvolume of ~130 liters the insides must occupy nearly 70 liters! Is the 2402 braced that heavily?
Don´t get me wrong, I do not want to argue with you or doubt knowledge as you have build a copy yourself, I just want to understand.



You are right, I forgot the resistance of the coils (around 0.6 ohm in TN-2 network). This is lowering the Fb value repectively to the port length. This is meaning port has to be shorter than the computed value.

There should be something wrong as TS of 1603 are the same as the ones for 1601b (same cone, and magnetic field), while 1601c as used in Exclusive 2404 has similar TS as the 1601a

TL-1601a/b/c takes about 6L of volume. TH-4001/TD-4001 takes about 30L, Bracing parts are huge with 44x60mm sections

[Dr.db]

Thanks a lot! ;)

[richluvsound]

Hi ,

you can't compare 04 and 02 ... 4003 and 4001 aren't the same to start with. 1.5" and 2" respectively . The 2404 use 1601c woofers ... and yes ,more like the A TS than the others .

My internal volume 183 ltrs subtract 12 for 1601,horn and bracing left me 171 .... there is more bracing in my copy, as that was an issue with the original . There is also no 18mm MDF in my build on 25mm BBP . The final tuning is spot on , more by luck than judgement . I have made a few changes . I never intended to build an exact copy, only that they were in the spirit of the original . These small changes were to get around copyright issues . And yes , I'll build another pair in the future and run them actively .


Richard .

[dn92]

Hi ,

you can't compare 04 and 02 ... 4003 and 4001 aren't the same to start with. 1.5" and 2" respectively . The 2404 use 1601c woofers ... and yes ,more like the A TS than the others .

My internal volume 183 ltrs subtract 12 for 1601,horn and bracing left me 171 .... there is more bracing in my copy, as that was an issue with the original . There is also no 18mm MDF in my build on 25mm BBP . The final tuning is spot on , more by luck than judgement . I have made a few changes . I never intended to build an exact copy, only that they were in the spirit of the original . These small changes were to get around copyright issues . And yes , I'll build another pair in the future and run them actively .


Richard .

I thought these 2404 were in Iceland, are they in London ? If yes I'll send you a PM, I'm free this evening to listen to them :bouncy:

[dn92]

Hi ,

you can't compare 04 and 02 ... 4003 and 4001 aren't the same to start with. 1.5" and 2" respectively . The 2404 use 1601c woofers ... and yes ,more like the A TS than the others .

My internal volume 183 ltrs subtract 12 for 1601,horn and bracing left me 171 .... there is more bracing in my copy, as that was an issue with the original . There is also no 18mm MDF in my build on 25mm BBP . The final tuning is spot on , more by luck than judgement . I have made a few changes . I never intended to build an exact copy, only that they were in the spirit of the original . These small changes were to get around copyright issues . And yes , I'll build another pair in the future and run them actively .


Richard .

To go active is the best route with these TAD loudspeakers. I did this on my 2402 clones, and will never come back.
If you can, mesure the frequency response at the output of the passive crossover and clone them in a digital crossover. This is what I did with a TN-2 network.

[richluvsound]

I'm waiting for new diaphragms .... hopefully they'll be hear new week .

Richard

[dn92]

Then next time I'll be in London, if not sold before :crying:

[Dr.db]

The final tuning is spot on , more by luck than judgement . I have made a few changes .

What is your final port length in your enclosures? :)

[richluvsound]

What is your final port length in your enclosures? :)


10.001 cm or 100 cm :D

R

[dn92]

Can you explain from where your port end correction factor is coming from as it is far from the usual 0.783 used in simulation software, while providing tangible results for these TAD speakers

[richluvsound]

Can you explain from where your port end correction factor is coming from as it is far from the usual 0.783 used in simulation software, while providing tangible results for these TAD speakers


I used this calculator .... http://www.calculatoredge.com/new/ventlength.htm

Tangible results meaning what ?

[richluvsound]

Can you explain from where your port end correction factor is coming from as it is far from the usual 0.783 used in simulation software, while providing tangible results for these TAD speakers


Hold on ... why am I feeling like I have something to prove to you ? What simulation software are you using ..... ? what info did you put in to get that figure ? What is your point of reference ? what TAD components are you measuring ? :D

R

[dn92]

Hold on ... why am I feeling like I have something to prove to you ? What simulation software are you using ..... ? what info did you put in to get that figure ? What is your point of reference ? what TAD components are you measuring ? :D

R

You are misunderstanding, I'm not doing any criticism.

I had already found the online calculator you used. In the picture you posted there is a correction factor you choose as by default there is nothing in the calculator. I just want to know why you used this one and from where it is coming.

I'm usually using WinISD that gives different results than your calculation due to a different correction factor. The correction factor you used allows prediction and reality to closely match for my TAD 2402
clones. Therefore I've interest in understanding.

[richluvsound]

All in good fun DN .... note the :D that software does everything ... . what components are you using in your clone ?

Rich

[dn92]

TAD units of course (TL-1601a and TD-4001 on an IWT TH-4001 horn), otherwise it is not a TAD 2402 clone :D but another loudspeaker.

In case this can be usefull for someone (At least for Dr dB):

I decided to do again the calculation of the internal volume, and I don't know why I did it wrong the first time.

Raw volume 200L (22mm panels, and considers volume taken by the space behind the crossover plate).
Calculated Vb=155L
Bracing takes 20L
Horn takes 10L (approximation made to two trapezium/trapezoid, and taking into account the horn round/rectangular adaptation piece)
Woofer takes 6L
TD-4001 takes 3L
BR tubes takes 1L
The rest is taken by cables and passive crossover .

Using a port end correction factor of 0.846 (Jorg Panzer) and considering that there is a port coupling effect (K becomes 0.954), that damping increases Vb by 33% (more than the traditional 20% given by books), I got a port length of 105.04mm.

A bit of lecture illustrating differences between practice and theory for this subject: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/vent_tuning.htm
Troel is considering in practice that port length is around 0.6 of the computed length, using Vb value not augmented by considering damping material effect.

With WinISD computed length for 100mm BR tubes, with K=0.732, applying this 0.6 factor, the result is 115mm. A bit too long in practice for Fb=32Hz. Originally I used tubes of 120mm length and got (from impedance measurements) 30Hz for Fb, a bit too low (targeted Fb=32Hz). My correction factor given from my experimental results would be 0.54.

Applying this to 171L volume and targetting Fb=32Hz, Troel's approximation with 0.6 correction factor gives 100mm length for two tubes of 100mm diameter. Applying 0.54 correction factor for tube length, it gives a length of 91mm.

In practice what I do for tube length adjustment, is to cut the ports at a length I consider to be too much and then using impedance measurements to get the real Fb. Then I use the theoretical formula to determine the proportionality in terms of length between the actual and targeted length. There is just to cut the ports to the obtained length.

[Ian Mackenzie]

The better way is to run a small signal sine wave and check the minimum real motion of the woofer cone at Fb once you have the approximate port length


A number of factors can influence the Fb in reality

(The density and amount of Fill, QL losses - leaks, port air turbulence and location to boundaries
I would then confirm the bass subjectivity in your room

Subtle adjustment of the port output can modify the response to compensate for room placement

The online simulator uses assumption

[Dr.db]

The better way is to run a small signal sine wave and check the minimum real motion of the woofer cone at Fb once you have the approximate port length


That´s a very convenient way to do it without the need for measuring equipment, thank you :)
But I can´t do this on a sunday evening, my neighbours would kill me...



In case this can be usefull for someone (At least for Dr dB):


Indeed, thanks a lot!

[hlaari]

Keep the TADs, otherwise you'll regret.

Why is it impossible to sell the S9900 ? Should be easier, anyone knows (even my kids know JBL, isn't it the name of a small bluetooth cube playing the music from phones) the brand name JBL.

K2-S9900 are not small bluetooth for kits:D
My S9900 are custom build not original, but I think at they are also great like the TAD´s
there is possible at I will use the with my 476Be and go active, K2-S9900 are very well build speaker they look also great

I have bought two new diaphragms for my Td-4003 driver so I hope at my TAD Exclusive 2404 will be ready very soon:)

[Doctor_Electron]

here are the answers from the seller GT-sound http://www.gt-sound.com/



HI Ari Oskarsson

Is it alright for a while, how are you?

Did you finish the Speaker box?

TD-4003

① DC-7, 5 Ω is normal value.
AC measurement will result in 12 to 13 Ω.

② I checked the sound at the time of shipping, but there was no
abnormality.

We opened the back chamber of DRIVER UNIT of TAD, GTS, and diaphragm
I will not remove it.

1. It does not have jigs that make precise height adjustment when
setting again. I have a TAD service.

2. The material of the diaphragm is beryllium and it seems there is a
danger to the human body.

Best regards
K.Goto


I am 100% sure he did not opened the back cap

Only if you breathe particles in the air, or get a splinter in the skin and not remove it.
Unlikely conditions when inspecting or replacing a driver diaphram.

[dn92]

If interest:

Exclusive DN-2404 LF crossover is a 36dB/oct, a bit (not so much) different from TAD TN-2 (to compensate a different delay from the compression driver that chould be lower than for TH-4001/TD-4001). HF crossover is of 12dB/oct, followed by an autotransformer, providing three levels positions from -1dB to +1dB. There is no EQ, which is quite logic from TH-4003/TD-4003 measurement graphic available somewhere on this forum, where the raw frequency response is already correct). A very simple HF network compared to TN-1/TN-2/TN-3.
This can be easily reproduced within an active crossover. If richluvsound or Ari send me impedance measurement files (.zma) I could simulate the frequency responses of the electric filters, the most difficult part to simulate being the autotransformer.

On DN-2404, the three cylinders on the right are coils of the LF filter, long rectangle contains all capacitors of the LF filter, on the left bottom rectangle box contains HF filter capacitor, the cylinder is the coil of HF flter, and remaining rectangle box the auto transformer. There are two resistor that are located elsewhere in the network plate.

[dn92]

K2-S9900 are not small bluetooth for kits:D
My S9900 are custom build not original, but I think at they are also great like the TAD´s
there is possible at I will use the with my 476Be and go active, K2-S9900 are very well build speaker they look also great

I have bought two new diaphragms for my Td-4003 driver so I hope at my TAD Exclusive 2404 will be ready very soon:)

I had the opportunity to listen to K2 S9900 last November and I agree that there are great loudspeakers. The best I listened during this hifi show in Paris.The best might be anyway to do a comparison side by side with 2404.

[richluvsound]

I had the opportunity to listen to K2 S9900 last November and I agree that there are great loudspeakers. The best I listened during this hifi show in Paris.The best might be anyway to do a comparison side by side with 2404.


Ive not heard the 9900 but I've heard the Everest - I'd stay with the 2404 .... Infact , having built this pair , I'll be building another pair for myself . The way the 4003 does Piano is worth the money in itself .

R

[dn92]

And also guitar, chords in general, female voices ... considering that 4003 is an improvement from my 4001s.
I didn'nt want to critisise JBL especially :D in this forum (not to be bannished :eek:) but I found my 2402 better than the K2 S9900 I listened (of course not in the same conditions).

[pos]

To put things in perspective, once precisely EQed to the exact same target I was not able to tell apart a TD4003 and 2450SL-Be on the same horn.
I guess the same would have been true for a 476Mg or 476Be.
Of course YMMV, and a passive system is a different story where the superior smoothness of the TD4003 can be a definitive advantage...

[Mr. Widget]

I'd stay with the 2404 .... Infact , having built this pair , I'll be building another pair for myself . The way the 4003 does Piano is worth the money in itself.Agreed on the piano comment.

Do you think you'll be able to find a pair of TL-1601Cs and TH-4003s? Both of those are so rare. It's likely easier to find factory systems out in the wild than the raw components.

On The JBL/TAD comparison. I've done my share of comparing. They are all pretty special. I think they each have their place and the right choice depends on the room, associated equipment, personal preference, :blah:


Widget

[dn92]

To find TD-4003 and TL-1601c is possible, there is almost one available on the market each two years. TH-4003 is more difficult. I've seen clones on Internet but I've no idea how conforming to the original they are. As T/S parameters are close, one can also start with 1601a waiting for two 1601c to be available. But the piece to get before starting is the horn. And even more difficult to find than the horns are the crossovers, but for them, the schematic is available and they can be replaced by an active crossover.

[richluvsound]

To find TD-4003 and TL-1601c is possible, there is almost one available on the market each two years. TH-4003 is more difficult. I've seen clones on Internet but I've no idea how conforming to the original they are. As T/S parameters are close, one can also start with 1601a waiting for an 1601c to be available. But the piece to get before starting is the horn. And even more difficult to find than the horns are the crossovers, but for them, the schematic is available and they can be replaced by an active crossover.


If you know where the schematic is ..... ? the horn is easy , and 4003 is ok if the money isn't an issue . The 1601C is more difficult to find ,but I'm a not adverse to using the 1601A rather than get stuck .

Pos also has a point , not being one for bragging rights and snobbery , 2450SL BE 9 ( on the th 4003 ? ) -1601A is not unacceptable .

I'll not buy used 4003 though ,unless the price makes new diaphragms worthwhile . I think we know that story .
Again , the Everest is a great speaker ,but not for my room .

I'm not rushing out to buy the parts , but its a project to complete for my 60th - 4 years .

[pos]

In the meantime you still have your current speakers to enjoy :)
You could also upgrade their components (change the 2435 for some 2450SL-Be, or the ME150H for 2216nd or 1500AL...) and/or go active.

[richluvsound]

The system has changed a lot since you were here Pos .

I have the 1500AL , new passive networks . Thats why I'm thinking a new speaker .... I would cost the about the same .

Active is not a cheap up-grade either ....

But Im open to ideas ?

Rich

[dn92]

If you know where the schematic is ..... ? the horn is easy , and 4003 is ok if the money isn't an issue . The 1601C is more difficult to find ,but I'm a not adverse to using the 1601A rather than get stuck .

Pos also has a point , not being one for bragging rights and snobbery , 2450SL BE 9 ( on the th 4003 ? ) -1601A is not unacceptable .

I'll not buy used 4003 though ,unless the price makes new diaphragms worthwhile . I think we know that story .
Again , the Everest is a great speaker ,but not for my room .

I'm not rushing out to buy the parts , but its a project to complete for my 60th - 4 years .

I got few time ago the service manual of the DN-2404 (I had to pay for it on one of these bandits manuals web sites, where they are saling documents that do not belongs to them), I can't share it directly here for obvious copyright reasons, but even if I had to give money for it, I can share the schematic (for free of course, PM to me).

There is also the Exclusive 2404 service manual on this web site I found, but I did't get it ($20 each manual). Let me first find where it was on Internet (and if it is still existing).

Note: The web site for this manual is still there. In order not to do public advertisement for it, I prefer to give the link through PM/email.

TH-4003 seems specific to TD-4003, not sure a rapid flare 1.5" would go directly into it. pos what do you think about as you have experience with TD-4003 ?
But TAD TH-4371 made for TAD PA loudspeakers seems to have a similar design, asymetric in vertical, providing a response that doesn't require EQ, and was made for rapid flare version of TD-4002 (a.k.a TD-4002Z, the same but witout 1.5 to 2" adaptor).

[pos]

The system has changed a lot since you were here Pos .

I have the 1500AL , new passive networks . Thats why I'm thinking a new speaker .... I would cost the about the same .

Active is not a cheap up-grade either ....

But Im open to ideas ?

Rich
Glad to hear you upgraded the woofer! I suppose the improvement is substantial over the ME150H!
Active is not necessarily expensive with DSP plate amps (hypex and the like, with an autoformer to lower hiss and noises on the compression), and the H9800+2435 would sure benefit from some specific EQ.

Looking at the S9800 spinorama the axis/window/power curves are very well matched, and even a simple global stereo (digital and parametric) EQ would probably already bring good results.
Here is an experiment I made a few years ago, based on the EDS curves (with unknown passive adjustment settings), showing the effect a proper EQ of the listening window curve (à la M2) would have on the spinorama.

without EQ (simple transcription of the EDS spinorama) :
78783

with EQ, targetting a flat listening window curve:
78784

EQ settings, 12 constant Q parametric EQ points:
78785

[pos]

TH-4003 seems specific to TD-4003, not sure a rapid flare 1.5" would go directly into it. pos what do you think about as you have experience with TD-4003 ?
But TAD TH-4371 made for TAD PA loudspeakers seems to have a similar design, asymetric in vertical, providing a response that doesn't require EQ, and was made for rapid flare version of TD-4002 (a.k.a TD-4002Z, the same but witout 1.5 to 2" adaptor).
The TD4003/TH4003 is really meant to work together, as the TD4003 throat and TH4003 horn have the same specific expansion.
This relatively slow expansion in the throat also dictates a somewhat narrow final directivity pattern, whereas throat-less drivers like the JBL 1.5" or TD4002Z are pretty much open to any scenario.

[richluvsound]

Hi Pos ,


I cant see dumping £1500 worth of 3 year old passive networks to keep the 2435 .... I could if it was the 2450 BE ... :D
I don't want step sideways .

Richard

[dn92]

TN-2 LF (Blue) vs TN-2 LF simulated (Yellow, differences vs measured remains in impedance measurement and components modeling precision) vs DN-2404 LF simulated (Green, using one TL-1601a in 2402 enclosure impedance data as I don't have TL-1601c in 2404 enclosure impedance data), voltage drive.

78787

To do a correct simulation of 2404 I need real measurements of the drivers without their crossovers, first the impedance data. If someone can provide this it could be great.

[Ian Mackenzie]

The system has changed a lot since you were here Pos .

I have the 1500AL , new passive networks . Thats why I'm thinking a new speaker .... I would cost the about the same .

Active is not a cheap up-grade either ....

But Im open to ideas ?

Rich

Hi Rich,

Be guided by your ears and your instincts


If you like the 4003/Tad horn cool

It’s all about the drivers to start with.

But a marriage requires some effort (trust me) so you can live with it over time

The technical side is really just access to the right people.

Leave the technical stuff to the boffins

I would talk to Guido about the 18Sound 1.5 inch Be driver?”

There is a man in Hungry making solid wood 4003 horns

You could evaluate your component options with support in Europe

Then assemble in London

A bit like a Jules Verne novel

I might be over in the UK later next year with my wife

[dn92]

Athos audio is the hungarian manufacturer of these TH-4003 "clones". The external shape looks different and is the metal adaptor provided ? Anyway the response has to be measured for check. I know no one who ordered a TH-4003 there but an Arai 290 and another one a TH-4001 clone.
Athos Audio is also danveyron on eBay.

[dn92]

Thanks Ian, I learned a new English term in my vocabulary that I didn't learned at school: boffin

[pos]

Athos audio is the hungarian manufacturer of these TH-4003 "clones". The external shape looks different and is the metal adaptor provided ? Anyway the response has to be measured for check. I know no one who ordered a TH-4003 there but an Arai 290 and another one a TH-4001 clone.
Athos Audio is also danveyron on eBay.
I know one person how ordered TH4003 clones from him, but was somewhat disappointed by the interior shape near the throat.
The only "good" clones that I know are Widget's ones (out of production unfortunately), and JMF Audio ones (probably only available through Roland Delacroix).

[Ian Mackenzie]

All it needs is to pitch up and pay for a new mould orclicense the CNC file to cut some wood horns

A bit of commercial Acumen would tell you if sold 50 or 100 licenses for $1000 you could put your feet up for a while

[richluvsound]

All it needs is to pitch up and pay for a new mould orclicense the CNC file to cut some wood horns

A bit of commercial Acumen would tell you if sold 50 or 100 licenses for $1000 you could put your feet up for a while

Hi Ian ,

I know a guy thats good with wood and has access to a CNC .... I have originals here and Ive worked with Widgets clones - the fit and finish was better on Widgets .

I have access to 2450'sl cheap ... I can get a good price on truextent but only for a group buy . And , you're spot on with the support here in Europe .... no need to bother old connections .

I really look forward to seeing you when you get here .

Richard .

[Ian Mackenzie]

It’s something to look forward to

Our last catch up on London with the boys was fun

When was the last time there was a uk re union?

I have some friends in Germany and Romania so maybe the wife can let me do my own “thing” on the way home ?

Sometimes l speak my mind so just ignore

Your pm box might be full

[richluvsound]

Hi Ian ,

it would be good to catch up . I've down sized though,but you're always welcome .

Rich

[richluvsound]

Few shots .... Just the grill badge to make . I'll use a 3D printer .

[hlaari]

Everything work good now:)
I bought pair of new Td-4003 diaphragms and the project are now close to be finish

[Mr. Widget]

Congratulations!
They look great... always even better when they sound good too!


Widget

[richluvsound]

Finished
Good Enough .... the sound is just gorgeous . At any volume they are genuinely captivating

[Ossanboy]

Halo All,

Will be better to use 1601b rather than 1601a?

I have never use TAD woofer before, which is the difference between the two as far as SQ?

Thanks

[dn92]

Are Richard and Ari still present on the forum? I've questions related to this Exclusive 2404 (some dimensions needed for helping a friend building its own 2404), I sent them private messages but without success (no answer from Richard and Ari has disabled the reception of messages). Does anyone here has a exclusive 2404 to help me getting these missing dimensions?

[Mr. Widget]

Sorry, can't really help.
Ari has left the building and I am not sure what Richard's status is, but it looks like he hasn't checked in for the last year.


Widget

[mattking52]

Are Richard and Ari still present on the forum? I've questions related to this Exclusive 2404 (some dimensions needed for helping a friend building its own 2404), I sent them private messages but without success (no answer from Richard and Ari has disabled the reception of messages). Does anyone here has a exclusive 2404 to help me getting these missing dimensions?

I’m still connected with Richard and might be able to get your questions to him.
He’s also active on some of the JBL-related Facebook groups.

Feel free to send me a PM.

[eso]

How did I miss this one? I've got the parts and planning to build a pair of 2401/TSM-1 monitors...

I'll need to come back when I have more time...

eso