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herve M
04-22-2003, 10:30 AM
Hello
I build new project 434x style:
woofer k140
medium 2123h
compression driver 2430h and horn 2332(from DMS1)
ultratweeter :NO
WHERE CAN TO BUY ULTRATWEETER 045Ti FROM K2S5800 and 4348??????????
Regards
herve M

Don McRitchie
04-22-2003, 11:34 AM
I'm not aware of the 2430/0435AL or 045ti being for sale as a raw component. The 2435/0435be and 045be are available in Japan. There was talk of them being sold in the US, but I've heard nothing more.

herve M
04-22-2003, 12:42 PM
I have the 2430h ! (jbl proservice.com, transducer list)
one pair : 400 dollars!!
regards
Hervé M

4313B
04-22-2003, 01:03 PM
I've searched Harman America, no 045Ti available it seems...

Earl K
04-22-2003, 01:09 PM
Hi Herve

Can you clarify these questions about your purchase ?

Did you buy the 2430h drivers from JBL Pro France ? or US ?
Did you pay $ 400. each ? or $ 400.00 for the pair ?
Is that $ 400.00 euro dollars or US dollars ?

And finally the big question, what do you think of them ?

Thanks !

regards <> Earl K

herve M
04-23-2003, 03:36 AM
Hello,
JBL USA.
the price is for pair! Dollar or euro? identical!
The sound ? I build enclosure type 4348;I build passive filtre.(it isn't end ).
however, 2430 seem better versus 2421/2425/2426
Regards
Herve M

sa660
04-30-2003, 07:42 AM
Herve,

Your project is very interesting.
Have you more info on this driver 2430.

What loudspeaker does it equipped from the JBL range?

Where are you in France.
I would like to come and here your system.


Thanks,
I am from Lyon.

sa660
04-30-2003, 07:46 AM
Don,


Do you mean that the 2430 is the same as the 0435 drivers?

1.5" neodynium magnet compresion drivers.
Is is again the same as 2450sl?

Thanks,

herve M
05-01-2003, 02:52 AM
Hello,
Yes, the 2430 is the industry's smallest, lightest large-format compression driver: new motor structure, maximum flux (20kiloGauss), neodymium motor, aluminium diaphragm, and only 1,2 kg !!
Difference between 2430 and 2450SL ?
2430: 3 in. diaphragm alu
2450sl: 4 in diaphragm titanium
and motor structure, and price!!!!!!

Yes, 2430 = 435 al
2435= 435 Be

Hervé M
France (Toulouse)

sa660
05-01-2003, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by herve M
Hello,
Yes, the 2430 is the industry's smallest, lightest large-format compression driver: new motor structure, maximum flux (20kiloGauss), neodymium motor, aluminium diaphragm, and only 1,2 kg !!
Difference between 2430 and 2450SL ?
2430: 3 in. diaphragm alu
2450sl: 4 in diaphragm titanium
and motor structure, and price!!!!!!

Yes, 2430 = 435 al
2435= 435 Be

Hervé M
France (Toulouse)

Can you please send pictures and/or datasheets of these compression?

Thanks,

herve M
05-02-2003, 03:49 AM
Hello Richard,
Datasheet : NO EXIST
Photo: 2430 and 2435 identical: www.audioheritage.org/images/misc/2000-tour/northridge/nterior04.JPG


regards, Herve M

herve M
05-02-2003, 06:03 AM
components image: k140, 2123, 2430, 2332, network

herve M
05-02-2003, 06:08 AM
components image

herve M
05-12-2003, 10:53 AM
Hello,
I've just finished my 434x 3 way. The enclosure is similar to the new 4348:
1080mm x 600 mm x 400 mm
finish: blue and black, MDF box, noyer color.
The sound ? I LOVE THE SOUND !
The sound is very different between 4430 and 434x
the new 2430 compression driver sound very better: no harsch,no distorting.

4313B
05-12-2003, 10:59 AM
Cool! :)

What networks did you use?

Can you post pictures?

herve M
05-12-2003, 01:11 PM
Hello Giskard,

I have a problem to attach jpeg image to a new post (see 5.02.03 post reply)!!!! I have HP psc2110 , my image to exceed 160000 bytes ! What can I do ?
The network? passiveproduction by craftsmen computer aided manu-facture!(inspired by 4344, 4622 and K2 schematics network).
Hervé

Don McRitchie
05-12-2003, 02:50 PM
Always convert to JPG's. JPG's use a compressed file format. As a simple explanation, JPG's eliminate redundancy in colors to result in a smaller file size. In the graphs that Giskard posts, the white background makes up 90% of the image. An uncompressed GIF or TIF format would store the numerical value of "white" for every one of the hundreds of thousands of white pixels that make up the image. Conversey, the JPG file would store the value of "white" only once for a block of pixels that are the same white color. It is not uncommon for a GIF or TIF image shrink 10 times when converted to a JPG format, as Giskard discovered.

When using JPG's you should find that the 160kb limitation is not a problem. I regularly reduce 1600 x 1200 pixel images to less than 150kb. That large an image would be impossible to view on the vast majority of computer monitors without having to scroll.

BTW, please do not post images that large even if they are less than 160kb. I would suggest nothing larger than 800 x 600. Once you get larger than the resoultion of most browsers, the fomatting of an entire thread will get screwed up trying to accommodate an image wider than the browser pane.

Just to be clear, do not convert JPG's to GIF's. In some cases, this can result in a 10 times increase in the file size.

herve M
05-13-2003, 09:16 AM
Image OK!!!
Components:K140
2123h (from 4344mkII)
horn 2332 (from dms1)
compression 2430 (from 4348)
passive network
:) :) :)

herve M
05-13-2003, 09:38 AM
Image1:right right
Image2,3,4:

Earl K
05-13-2003, 10:51 AM
Hi Herve

Nice pictures , a little big for my screen , but nice nonetheless .
And congratulations on being the first person I'm aware of to have bought some 2430 drivers .
Did you have to "take hostages" to get JBL to sell them to you ?

regards <> Earl K

4313B
05-13-2003, 10:54 AM
You can order them from Pro Parts Earl.

All they want for them is money :)

$219.49 each.

Earl K
05-13-2003, 11:28 AM
Hi Rob

- Gee , that's a great price point.
- Now I have to see what I can sell to finance that acquisition .

regards <. Earl K

herve M
05-14-2003, 10:01 AM
Sound of my 434x and 4430DIY:

434x: Médium and high frequency: transparency, more détails than the 4430. The reponse is flatter with less distorsion and great dynamics.Phasing plug coupled directly to the horn throat: less distorsion.
The JBL/Urei 6260 is good amp for the 434X.
The CROWN DCA2 is good amp for the 4430 ,but is so "hard" (high medium) for the 434x.

4430DIY : The three-dimensional stereo imaging of the 2344 is supérior (imaging in the middle of the two speakers)
But médium and high frequency there are "more sage" and "colored". The bass réponse is superior, bass is BIG.
But bass reponse in the 434x is lighter and flatter!!

Regards
Herve M
PS: Friday: pictures of system 434x

herve M
05-16-2003, 11:35 AM
Hello,
Pictures 434x;

herve M
05-20-2003, 10:21 AM
Hello!
Image from 434X and 4430DIY.
Network434X: 250Hz, 1000Hz
Network 4430DIY: 1200Hz

Ian Mackenzie
08-23-2003, 08:45 PM
Herve M,

I just went to your thread, wow what a system.

Those 2430 drivers look cute....

The DMS 1 horn is a CD right? Have you used passice or elextronic EQ for the horn?

Ian

Alex Lancaster
08-23-2003, 09:36 PM
Hi Herve:

Why the K140's?, I would use 2235H's, less impressive but more deep bass, truer sound in my opinion.

Alex.

herve M
08-24-2003, 03:42 AM
Hello Ian and Alex.
Passive network for compression driver ( § images)
Actually, I have difficulty to perfect my 434X.
The efficiency 2332+2430 vs 2344+2425 is terrific ( +7 or +8dB!!!!). I have difficulty to adjust 2332/2430 level.
Level minimum: medium is good
high frequency bad

level control medium: agressive medium
good high frequency

SOLUTION ? 4 way with ultratweeter????

Woofer K140 ? Is not a choice, but a opportunity ( nice price)
K140 or 2235 ? The 4 way system 434x don't sacrifice of the low end. It's problem. It's makes not very difference. The level of low frequency to change with records. No problem for 2 way system (I love my 4430 with coloured bass )

Herve M

Ian Mackenzie
08-24-2003, 03:56 AM
Herve,

level control medium: agressive medium
good high frequency

SOLUTION ? 4 way with ultratweeter????

Not necessarily my friend. Persistance to the key here.

Please refer to the DMs 1 marketing literature, they refer to a Point Source Solution based on further development of the 4430 bi radial Horn.

Your driver has mass rolloff above 4-5 k hertz, and requires a degree of eqalisation to flatten the response out to 20 k herts.

JBL provide the EQ curve for this, you could try the 4430 passive network for starters and the tweek it to suite. (you will need an analyser like Winairr for this)

The newer phase coherent drivers such as yours have a lighter diaphrapms to extend the response out to 20 k hertz.

Try and exploit this improvement before buying a UHF driver!

Ian

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
08-24-2003, 04:09 AM
Here is the Eq curve for the DMs1 horn:

Ian

boputnam
08-24-2003, 11:22 AM
Hey, Ian...

Is that document a .pdf? If so:
1) open it in Acrobat, and zoom it to your desired size. This is a neat feature of Adobe, you can zoom the document to a larger size and there is no degradation to the image.
2) Open Paint.
3) Window back to Adobe and using the "snapshot" tool button, select the area you wish to steal. Then CTRL-C (or right-click and "copy")
4) Window to Paint, and Ctrl-V (or "paste"). If Paint ask to size-up the background, say "yes". Save the image as .jpg
5) Under "Image/Stretch/Skew, "stretch" both the Horizontal and
Veritical identical percentages (i.e., 75%, which will reduce the image). Save and check for size (<= 30 kBytes).
6) import into LansingH Country Club.

boputnam
08-24-2003, 11:30 AM
Like this:

Hope that helps! ;)

herve M
08-25-2003, 02:07 AM
Thank you Ian and Bo,
My schematic network is inspired by 4344 (for 2123h) ,
k2 s9800 and 4622 (for 2430h).
Here :

Ian Mackenzie
08-25-2003, 03:13 AM
Thanks for the tip Bo.

Herve, here is an add on eq crossover schematic (from the 4435) which may assist with the extension of the 2430H to at least 16.5k hertz.

The alteration is simple enough and consists the high pass filter and additional HF bandpass filter and attenuation Pads for Mid and high adjustment.

If you would like to try this out and need a coil 0.04 mh let me know. For ease of implementation I would add the parts external to the existing board on a small daughter board.

Ian

Earl K
08-25-2003, 06:36 AM
Hi Ian / anyone

In a manner of fortuitous timing , you mention some of the 4435/4430 circuit that I've been mulling over this weekend. I usually answer these things for myself by buiding them up on my test bench - but I don't have any 30 ohm Lpads to play with.
I was going to start a new thread for the topic but - you've provided a time & place for my question, so;

(a) Electrically;
(i) What's the purpose of the .04 mh inductor ?
(ii) Is it to prevent UHF oscillation from building up in the twin LPad loop ?

(b) Electrically; Why is the drain or ground side of the 30 ohm Lpad in the 4430/5 - not connected to ground ?
( Urei used this no ground approach with their 811c circuits. )

(c) Practical;
(i) What are the consequences of running this HF "bypass circuit" without the 30 ohm Lpad "control" in place and instead resorting to a simple "load" resistor ( a la the 4331 / L 200B approach ) ?
(ii) Do any of you who use this circuit topology actually have this 30 ohm Lpad dialed back ?

(d) Practical; How does the implementation of this circuit compare to the more traditional approach of HF shunting as found in the S3100, 4331, L200b ? ( ie RC combinations, parrallel or series style )

regards <> Earl K :)

4313B
08-25-2003, 06:46 AM
It's a 30 ohm rheostat or variable resistor, not an L-pad.

If you desire I will post voltage drives showing the effects of the 30 ohm var res. Let me know.

Earl K
08-25-2003, 07:40 AM
Hi Giskard


It's a 30 ohm rheostat or variable resistor, not an L-pad.

Thanks - that clears things up. No need to post the voltage drives - I can dig up a 30 ohm rheostat to test.

regards <> Earl K :)

Ian Mackenzie
08-25-2003, 07:49 AM
Okay,

I must get some sleep, but...

A The 0.04 is crucial to the tuning of the 16.5Khertz bandpass filter, the values of the capacitor/inductor and lossy effect of the variable 30 ohms resister combine to effect the Q of the filter.

B The 30 ohms variable resister is not acting as a voltage divider here.

C. Dialling back the 30 ohms lowering the resistance raises the HF extension, raising the resistance lowers the response.

D I have not studied the HF shunting of other designs in detail, this is another form of response contouring. If you look at the 2344 data you will see the curve for the EQ is not linear, but plateau's out at higher frequencies so you need a Hump shapped filter, hence the bandpass.

Likewise the Mid Pad is also essential to add fill to frequencies below 4 kherts and flatten the drive voltage for a flat response.

The practical implementation of such filters in passive networks is messy, the the JBL guy have done swell job here.

Ian

Earl K
08-25-2003, 08:38 AM
Thanks Ian


The practical implementation of such filters in passive networks is messy, the JBL guy(s) have done a swell job here.

Yep, I'll agree to that. In fact , for light reading , I find studying JBLs' passive circuit design quite enlightening. Coming from the SR side of things, I feel I've gotten pretty used to what many of these transducers sound like uncompensated. One of my favourite comments from this or past forums is about the "homogeneity" achieved within the S3100 system . That's indeed high praise for the somewhat maligned 2426h ( I take my share the blame here ) when coupled to a big horn. I find the S3100s' circuit design interesting in that it shows some of JBLs' initial steps towards the full blown surgical use of series LCR circuits ( strapped in parallel across the load ). Full blown seems to mean maybe One per Octave. ( Don't understand the fuse in the S3100 LCR )


<> Earl K:)

herve M
08-25-2003, 01:15 PM
Thank you,
To take things as they come:
I can to use 4348 schematic network for 2430h and woofer to change ( TO SEARCH for rare 2235H !!!!)

herve M
08-26-2003, 02:35 AM
Here is 4348 sch.network for HF compression driver:

Earl K
08-26-2003, 05:44 AM
Hi Herve

Now, I'm confused .

Are you asking if it's a good idea to use the 4348 HF network for your project ? If your asking, then my opinion is no, it's not a good idea.

My reasoning;

- The 4348 hf network is tailored to the specific response characteristics of the 2430 with the 4348 horn. The network has no HF tailoring or midrange suppression and as such is meant to be used with a tweeter. Also, more importantly, those series LCR portions are most likely not going to be applicable to your 2332 horn /driver combo. They are "tuned" to a different horn/driver combo.

- To create a circuit that's inspired by what you see - then you'll need to determine the specific resonance areas that you want those LCR portions to dampen down. This could be done by carefully plotting or mapping out the motional impedance of your horn/driver combination. Carefully listening to Sine Wave tones will easily show up resonances you might want to dampen out. That is the easy part. The hard part is actually "tuning" each LCR circuit so it has just the right "Q" and attenuation. This is a DIY "tinkers" delight or nightmare depending on ones outlook.

- It's a lot easier ( if not as elegant ) to use JBLs' tried & true method of using "load" resistors strapped in parrallel with the driver to create ( among other things ) some broadband resonance control ( or to my ears ) compression. To find a value your ears like ( and if your amplifier can stand the low impedance load ) temporarily strap in a 6 ohm resistor across the compression driver. This much voltage division between the two elements ( driver & resistor ) should be audible as a form of broadband compression. Some of the dynamics of the driver should disappear. Increase the value of the resistor until there are no audible compression/loading effects ( you probably won't hear a 30 ohm resistor strapped in parrallel ). Then play with different resistor values in between the 6 and 30 ohm range. It's a lot easier to do this exercise with an tunable electronic crossover giving you your highpass point ( even if its just temporary or on loan ).

regards <> Earl K :)

Ian Mackenzie
08-26-2003, 06:34 AM
Herve,

Can I suggest the 3135 network EQ compensation will be the closest approximation to the eq required for the DMS1 CD horn.

I refer to this as the DMS1 voltage drive is surprisingly similar to the 3135.

Otherwise you are looking for a needle in a haystack

Ian:banghead:

Earl K
08-26-2003, 08:25 AM
Can I suggest the 3135 network EQ compensation will be the closest approximation to the eq required for the DMS1 CD horn.

Yes, I think that's a good suggestion. It's a very adaptable and usable circuit layout.

- Just this morning I used that hf circuit as a template for some CD horn compensaton (on an Italian driver ) - adapted for a stock, 16 ohm Lpad
- Worked well.

regards <> Earl K

herve M
08-26-2003, 08:43 AM
OK, thank you for posts.
The bass level is insufficient. Conclusion: imbalance.
This W-E , I have compared the K140 (tuned 40Hz) with my 2231A
(tuned 30 Hz) , identical network. It's not getting any better.

Robh3606
08-26-2003, 10:41 AM
Hello Herve



"The bass level is insufficient. Conclusion: imbalance."

Across the board 20hz to 300hz or say 40Hz and down?? Padding the mid/compression drivers down?? The 2123 is 101 compared to a 2231 much more sensitive. The K140 won't have the last octave but comporable sensitivity. I don't see any pads in your schematic. The 4430/4435 and 4345 all have pads on the 2420/2421's as well as the Lpads for level. Just a thought.

Rob:)

herve M
08-26-2003, 01:24 PM
"Across the board 20hz to 300hz or say 40Hz and down?? "

Robh,
40 hz to 300 hz !
See schematic : I use two L-pad 8 ohm 50 w MONACOR.


"- The 4348 hf network is tailored to the specific response characteristics of the 2430 with the 4348 horn. The network has no HF tailoring or midrange suppression and as such is meant to be used with a tweeter"

EarlK,
I would ultratweeter to buy. To take in consideration.

Robh3606
08-26-2003, 03:07 PM
Robh,
40 hz to 300 hz !
See schematic : I use two L-pad 8 ohm 50 w MONACOR.


I saw them but they don't provide enough attenuation. I mean a pad to match the driver sensitivities. Look at the schematic Ian posted R4 and R5 are the pad for the compression driver. R8/9 and R10/11 are the pad in the 4348 schematic for the compression driver.

Rob:)

Earl K
08-26-2003, 07:01 PM
Hi Herve

Just so you don't think I'm ignoring your dilemma .

I'm away till the weekend. When I'm back, I'll check in to see what progress has been made here.

- RobH(s) notes about additional fixed pads for the 2123h have merit. Also, the 2123h is a pretty low impedance speaker ( its not 8 ohms ) - you could probably get away with just adding some series resistance ( 3 to 5 ohms ) to that part of the circuit - in addition to the existing Lpad. This is another reason why JBL has started to incorporate "J" suffix midrangers into their newer 4 way speakers. Those J speakers can have a hard time getting beyond 11 ohms - which helps in balancing them in these type of hybrid style speakers .

- I'd also go back to the woofer section of the crossover to see if anything is stealing bass energy. FWIW, ( temporarily ) disconnect those 2 loading resistors that you have in there - and reconnect your 100uf capacitor . I'd also check the box tuning (Fb) for your woofer to make sure it wasn't "saggy" in the last octave - from a too low tuning.
- What is the box size & tuning ? ( forgive me if this is already posted - I'm now in a hurry here ). You mentioned this part of the circuit was inspired by the S9800 woofer circuit. Well, the K140 is not the 1500Al , so it has different electrical needs.

- I'd go with Ians' good suggestion of horn-compensation a la the n3155 circuit - even though you have plans to eventually acquire a tweeter. ( IME ) , all JBL compression drivers should be HF compensated (some ) when running without a tweeter .

regards <. Earl K:)

Earl K
08-26-2003, 09:48 PM
Hi Herve

I just realized ( had to get up out of bed ) - the capacitor value in the woofer section of your crossover is much too large - in should be in the 40 to 50uf area - not 100 uf - since I don't know the AC impedance of the K140 I can't be any more exact than a suggested 45uf.

What you have now ( for that 100uf cap ) works out to a second pole point of @ 150hz for your low pass circuit .

So I think all your cap values need accurate remodelling - especially those values derived/borrowed from the modern "Charge- Coupled" networks .

regards <>Earl K :)

herve M
08-28-2003, 01:38 AM
I going to study! thank you!Reply in few days.

herve M
12-07-2003, 03:17 AM
New replacement : 2231 with 2235h.
2235h very good ! The bass level is perfect and the medium/high level is balanced!
Actually, biamplification test with Behringer active crossover 2310.

Earl K
12-07-2003, 06:06 AM
Well , there ya go.

Another "happy customer" for biamping. Glad it worked out !

<> EarlK:)

herve M
12-14-2003, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
Herve,

Can I suggest the 3135 network EQ compensation will be the closest approximation to the eq required for the DMS1 CD horn.

I refer to this as the DMS1 voltage drive is surprisingly similar to the 3135.

Otherwise you are looking for a needle in a haystack

Ian:banghead:


Hello ian,
Can you to do a drawing (schematic) ?

Ian Mackenzie
12-14-2003, 04:27 AM
Well for an artist of my reputation I am sure I can assist,

A bottle of French wine to steady my hand of course would be nice....(joke).

Now where was that drawing


Ian:cool:

herve M
12-14-2003, 07:57 AM
Ha Ha ! "drawing"!!
Where modification for my HFnetwork????

PSS AUDIO
12-14-2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
A bottle of French wine to steady my hand of course would be nice....(joke)

Ian:cool:

Ian,

All our distributors receives a wooden box of 6 bottles of Baron Philippe de Rotschild "MOUTON CADET" (which is the result of a rigorous selection of wines from the most important Bordeaux names from grapes issuing from most noble strains: Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and Cabernet Franc; their blending, carried out by the Baron Philippe de Rothschild oenologists, give this wine force and vivacity, characteristics of a young wine; the tannins are frank without being aggressive) with each significant order!

Cheers ...

herve M
03-13-2004, 06:43 AM
Hello, Here project passive network modifications for HF (2430+2332) :
1. either he I use 4348 schematic and I disconnect L4 (0,1mH),c15 (2,4yF) C17 (2,4yF) and R24 . ( NO UHF!)

2. Or I use 4430/4435 schematic. However, I would uhf in the future...

Today, I prefer the first hypothesis project. :o

Hervé

herve M
03-13-2004, 07:12 AM
simplified schematic for hyph number one: