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Tube Radio
05-13-2017, 12:14 PM
I have been djing at a rink for a few months.

They use several QSC K8 powered speakers and four Yorkville LS1208 subs.

I have adjusted the system as good as I possibly can, but the subs just aren't good enough.

Here's what I was thinking.

Four JBL 4520 cabinets with one in each corner for 100-40Hz.

Two larger bass horns one at each end of the rink for 40-20Hz.

I chose the 100Hz frequency as the QSC speakers have a switch for external subwoofer which inserts a high pass at 100Hz and that would simplify things as I wouldn't need an active crossover. Also the QSC speakers have a low frequency response of -6DB at 61Hz.

I plan on using Yamaha PX8 power amps with one for two 4520 cabinets and one for each bass horn due to those amps having built in DSP which will allow me to make the speakers sound their best.

Here's a couple pictures of the rink.

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab196/jmcinvale/Skating%20rink/0513170159.jpg (http://s863.photobucket.com/user/jmcinvale/media/Skating%20rink/0513170159.jpg.html)

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab196/jmcinvale/Skating%20rink/0513170159a.jpg (http://s863.photobucket.com/user/jmcinvale/media/Skating%20rink/0513170159a.jpg.html)

The subs are in only two corners which is part of the problem.

grumpy
05-13-2017, 12:26 PM
Unfortunately, the photobucket linked photo also leads to pop up scam ads.

-_-

Mr. Widget
05-13-2017, 02:06 PM
Why bass horns? They were really practical when a Crown DC300 was a big amp. Today's drivers handle gobs of power and Crown and others offer gobs of power at reasonable prices. I think you'll find, like everyone else has, that the modern crop of high powered bass reflex cabinets will give you superior performance.


Widget

Tube Radio
05-13-2017, 02:58 PM
Grumpy those are ads photobucket uses unfortunately.

Mr. Widget, sheer power isn't always the best way to go.

Ever seen a proper horn loaded woofer/subwoofer putting out insane levels of bass with the speaker cone barely moving?

Also efficiency is another reason as I can cover the area properly with less power than I could with bass reflex cabinets.

Mr. Widget
05-13-2017, 03:03 PM
Mr. Widget, sheer power isn't always the best way to go.

Ever seen a proper horn loaded woofer/subwoofer putting out insane levels of bass with the speaker cone barely moving?

Also efficiency is another reason as I can cover the area properly with less power than I could with bass reflex cabinets.Ok, let us know how it turns out.


Widget

Tube Radio
05-13-2017, 03:19 PM
I'm sure it will be good with help from those who have dealt with the horn loaded speakers.

KCCT82
05-14-2017, 01:52 AM
Grumpy those are ads photobucket uses unfortunately.

Mr. Widget, sheer power isn't always the best way to go.

Ever seen a proper horn loaded woofer/subwoofer putting out insane levels of bass with the speaker cone barely moving?

Also efficiency is another reason as I can cover the area properly with less power than I could with bass reflex cabinets.

It's gonna cost you a lot more money, space, and time to set up proper bass horns. I'd go with widget's idea.

Ruediger
05-14-2017, 03:41 AM
Can you post pictures of the 4 corners, so that one can estimate the available space.

Ruediger

cooky1257
05-14-2017, 05:11 AM
Can you post pictures of the 4 corners, so that one can estimate the available space.

Ruediger

Yes as Widget, reflex all the way plenty of plans for 2x18" available online.

http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=gsub
or a few of these...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/subwoofers/44513-coupled-cavity-sub-184sub.jpg

Tube Radio
05-14-2017, 07:21 AM
It will be Friday before I can get any more pictures.

I prefer not putting gobs of power into sealed cabinets when there's great sounding horn loaded cabinets which can do the same and more on less power.

If you've ever seen the posts from a few years ago a form member made about the El Dorado Bumper Cars he owned before he passed on or have been there to hear the sound system you will know how good bass horns used properly cap sound

KCCT82
05-14-2017, 11:10 AM
Yes, efficiency is a good thing.

Yes, I'm pretty sure most if not all the members contributing to this thread have heard low frequency horns.

BUT, is it really necessary in your case? Is it worth the trouble? Of perhaps even feasible? So far, the general opinion is no.

Also, if you really want "proper" bass horns, then forget about the 4520, I don't see how a tiny 3-4ft scoop is gonna give you proper horn loading down to 40hz.

"Proper bass horns" - Harder to design, harder to build, unpredictable results.

Reflex/Sealed - Easier to design, easier to build, almost guaranteed to be successful, especially if you build sealed boxes.

Lee in Montreal
05-14-2017, 11:48 AM
Why bass horns? They were really practical when a Crown DC300 was a big amp. Today's drivers handle gobs of power and Crown and others offer gobs of power at reasonable prices. I think you'll find, like everyone else has, that the modern crop of high powered bass reflex cabinets will give you superior performance.


Widget

Well. You'll need 3 or 4 times the power and twice the number of drivers if going to a bass reflex system.

In his previous post, I suggested TubeRadio to go to a modern bass horn such as Mog Mogale 18" Super Scoopers for more response below 60 Hz. The 4520 being technically quite outdated. Not to mention that the volume of that rink is huge. He will need more than 4 bass cabs for people to start feeling the bass, not just hearing it. :D

Lee in Montreal
05-14-2017, 11:53 AM
It will be Friday before I can get any more pictures.

I prefer not putting gobs of power into sealed cabinets when there's great sounding horn loaded cabinets which can do the same and more on less power.

If you've ever seen the posts from a few years ago a form member made about the El Dorado Bumper Cars he owned before he passed on or have been there to hear the sound system you will know how good bass horns used properly cap sound

Tiny. It is how I would describe the volume that Scott had to pressurize... You probably have 20 times that volume, requiring 20 times the equipment...

In my younger days, I would go to a club with a 40' x 40' dance floor with low ceiling. Four corners w/ two 4520 cabinets per corner. That's eight 4520s for a tiny fraction of the volume you have.

Tube Radio
05-14-2017, 01:11 PM
Yes, efficiency is a good thing.

Yes, I'm pretty sure most if not all the members contributing to this thread have heard low frequency horns.

BUT, is it really necessary in your case? Is it worth the trouble? Of perhaps even feasible? So far, the general opinion is no.

Also, if you really want "proper" bass horns, then forget about the 4520, I don't see how a tiny 3-4ft scoop is gonna give you proper horn loading down to 40hz.

"Proper bass horns" - Harder to design, harder to build, unpredictable results.

Reflex/Sealed - Easier to design, easier to build, almost guaranteed to be successful, especially if you build sealed boxes.


The spec of the 4520 is 42 Hz so that would handle the bass nicely then some larger horns specifically for 40-20Hz for the lower bass.

I've heard bass reflex subwoofer cabinets before (mostly car audio) and they sounded ok...

I've heard the 4520 cabs at another local rink and they sounded much more natural.

In the end it depends on what the owner wants to go with.

I doubt very seriously he is going to want to shorten the rink any for installing big horns for 40-20Hz and I don't know if there's room for the super scoopers either.

Its tempting to get some of those 3 cu ft 15' sealed sub boxes parts express sells and stick in the recommended Dayton Audio driver, but that would require gobs of power.

The current subs do ok and would have been much better if they either put one in each of the four corners or put one pair in each of the two remaining corners.

I can tell they lack in output under 40 Hz though and I have the 30Hz HP filter on the amps turned on so the subs don't unload the drivers and damage them.

In a way I'm wondering if it is ok to have the best of both worlds using the 4520 down to 42Hz and some sealed subs for 42-20Hz.

How low will the mog mogale Super scoopers go?

I myself would tend to use sealed cabinets, but I can only imagine how many drivers it would take to fill up that space properly not to mention the extra amplifiers needed. Would wind up using much more power than a good set of horn loaded subs which would equate to more money spent by the owners.

Another thing to consider is there is a bowling alley there right next to the skate floor separated by a wall so I don't know if the sheer vibration a bunch of sealed cabinets would produce will affect the lanes. That's where horns are nice. Not nearly as much cabinet vibration, yet they go louder than any sealed sub could ever dream of doing plus there's way less excursion of the driver in a horn loaded system.

Mr. Widget
05-14-2017, 01:41 PM
If you've ever seen the posts from a few years ago a form member made about the El Dorado Bumper Cars he owned before he passed on or have been there to hear the sound system you will know how good bass horns used properly cap soundThis is what Scott ultimately used for bass in his Eldorado Bump Your Ass Off venue:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?9812-2242H-Subs-for-Big-Bass


Widget

Tube Radio
05-14-2017, 06:29 PM
Looks like he used those for the bass under a certain frequency as he still had corner loaded 18" horns.

This is primarily why I don't want to deal with modern subs


Ill tell you this, one thing the speakers of yesteryear, the great ones, had over todays speakers, is transient response. Todays subs take more power, but they dont have that fast snap that used to make bass come to life. In my opinion. I find most of todays sub woofers too garbled sounding, yeah they go down deep, but they have no articulation, and speed, that nimbleness that lets you visualize the instrument and player...

I honestly think that has a lot to do with the more modern subwoofer drivers typically used in modern subs having stiffer suspensions and heavier cones to withstand the higher power thrown at them which causes the drivers to not respond as quickly as the older subs would.

I figure perhaps using some super scoopers as the subs and if they go low enough then that will be all I need.

Given the space I need to fill I'd need the longer throw ability of the horns.

As it stands now with the Yorkville subs the bass is much louder by the subs and decreases in output as you move away from them.

That said I've heard the 4520 cabinets at another rink of similar size (maybe slightly smaller) and the bass seemed to not decrease as much moving away from the subs, and even though the low bass under 40Hz was not really there what was there sounded so natural and present.

Mr. Widget
05-14-2017, 07:33 PM
As it stands now with the Yorkville subs the bass is much louder by the subs and decreases in output as you move away from them.

That said I've heard the 4520 cabinets at another rink of similar size (maybe slightly smaller) and the bass seemed to not decrease as much moving away from the subs...While sound theoretically falls off at -6dB per doubling of the distance, line arrays fall off at only -3dB. I do not know if a properly implemented "long throw" horn will approach the fall off of a line array or not... or subjectively what you may have experienced in that scenario, but it is possibly related. That said the 4520 is considered a "short throw" horn so I'm not sure.

I'm not anti horn, not at all, but to have a well made horn that will properly couple with the air and provide an fc below 40Hz, it must be gigantic. The actual size will depend on the expansion rate you choose, but they are all extremely large.

As for what will sound best in your venue, that's subjective. Keep us posted on your progress.


Widget

Lee in Montreal
05-14-2017, 07:40 PM
You gonna have to start experimenting by yourself, and see what type of bass cabinets suits better which type of music. Set aside of a few hundred $ and build some cabinets. See how they sound. Perhaps you can event rent bass cabs for testing. See what outdoor shows use, and in which quantities. What is your personal DJ system?

KCCT82
05-14-2017, 08:47 PM
Go for tapped horns. It's a horn, good efficiency, very small footprint, easier than building a proper exponential horn, fairly easy to design 20-100hz , and doesn't need an expensive driver.

edgewound
05-14-2017, 10:39 PM
Sounds like a scenario where some good room acoustics analysis might be a good idea before throwing resources at the sound system and hoping for the best.

Not all rooms are created equal. Some are impossible to get good, even coverage at all frequencies...especially low frequencies that are prone to peaks and nulls due the room's geometry and resonance frequencies. Move a foot or two either left or right, forward or back, and your head might explode from too much bass. Move again and it seems to disappear until you move again.

Maybe hanging sound absorbing baffles from the ceiling, and installing some on the walls would help. Movie theaters have soft walls all around for good reason.

When I first heard the Everest II at CES some years ago, I told Greg Timbers there was a problem with lots of bass in the hotel suites' entry way and not enough in the listening area. He kind of shrugged and knew there wasn't much he do about it in that scenario because it was out of his control, being a hotel room. On the other hand, Glenn Phoenix of Westlake Audio...when the CES Show was at the Sahara... would sometimes go bonkers and line the entire hotel room with acoustic foam to isolate the speakers from the room...because he could.

Ruediger
05-14-2017, 11:16 PM
25 Hz or 20 Hz to 100 Hz can be covered by one type of horn,you don't need to split that frequency range into two.

I estimated the dimensions, the horns wouldn't become unmanageably large.

But first we need more information about the available space.


Ruediger

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?26878-Four-way-disco-system-with-huge-basshorn

Tube Radio
05-15-2017, 04:43 AM
In a way I can see why most modern pro audio subs only go to 40Hz. To build ones that go to 20Hz with any sort of efficiency will mean they are larger cabinets making them harder to carry around.


I had forgotten about the 4520 horns being short throw.

Thinking about it the bass did seem s little louder by the 4520s, but perhaps how they had them arranged pointing towards the middle of the rink made the effect of the bass lowering as one goes away from the horns less noticeable.

Looking at the super scooper plans it recommends a high pass of 30Hz as the driver unloads below that frequency.

http://speakerplans.com/index.php?id=18superscooper

This youtube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72huQJDXJnw

Used an Eminence Omega pro 18A driver for the super scooper.

Is that a good choice, is there a better driver or is there a currently manufactured JBL driver that is better?

Those may work and I could perhaps use two in each corner. I then may not have to replace the amps as they use two QSC RMX2450 amps I think (can check model number Friday to be sure) in bridged mono mode for the four Yorkville subs and have a built in selectable 30Hz HP filter.

The rink owner owns a construction company as well so could easily have the cabinets built.

Lee in Montreal
05-15-2017, 05:22 AM
18" drivers have more potential than 15" ones. Definitely the way to go. Could be new PD1850, or maybe used JBL 2242

Start with two Superscooper per corner. And add more along the way. Remember that your rink is huuuuge. ;-)
Check if your amps or crossovers have 48db high pass filters.

edgewound
05-15-2017, 11:17 AM
18" drivers have more potential than 15" ones. Definitely the way to go. Could be new PD1850, or maybe used JBL 2242

Start with two Superscooper per corner. And add more along the way. Remember that your rink is huuuuge. ;-)
Check if your amps or crossovers have 48db high pass filters.

21" drivers have even more potential than 18".

I don't understand the need to get all the way down to 20Hz when 30Hz is perfectly sufficient for a music playback system, unless you want to knock down the building and the people within it.

Bottom line...way too much bass is just obnoxious and actually can be abusive to patrons of the venue.

In my not so humble opinion, anyway ;).

Lee in Montreal
05-15-2017, 02:22 PM
21" drivers have even more potential than 18".

I don't understand the need to get all the way down to 20Hz when 30Hz is perfectly sufficient for a music playback system, unless you want to knock down the building and the people within it.

Bottom line...way too much bass is just obnoxious and actually can be abusive to patrons of the venue.

In my not so humble opinion, anyway ;).


I agree totally with you that getting it down to 30Hz will be enough. An nice boost from 70Hz down and you can get some lively bass. Not to mention than to get under 30Hz, a lot of power is needed. But that cab must have a good response from 30 to 70Hz, where it counts. Unlike the 4520 that starts falling down from 70Hz... Let's not forget that today's music has a lot more deep bass content that 1970s disco... ;-) Therefore, the cabinets that were designed for that type of music might no longer be efficient for EDM.

BTW I don't think I mentioned going down to 20Hz ;-)

Tube Radio
05-15-2017, 02:29 PM
The idea for 20Hz is that a lot of modern rap, hip hop ETC... Has bass that low and doesn't really sound right if that low bass isn't there.

30Hz would be sufficient though.



Unfortunately I cannot find that driver for sale on any website in the USA. Would have to order from the UK and have them shipped here.

At the price they go for I seriously doubt the rink owner would want to spend that much unless it is proven those drivers will make a huge improvement.

Far as I know I think the HP crossover is 24 db/octave.



Lee, you didn't, but I did.

Lee in Montreal
05-15-2017, 02:35 PM
Looking at the super scooper plans it recommends a high pass of 30Hz as the driver unloads below that frequency.

http://speakerplans.com/index.php?id=18superscooper

This youtube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72huQJDXJnw

Used an Eminence Omega pro 18A driver for the super scooper.
Is that a good choice, is there a better driver or is there a currently manufactured JBL driver that is better?

Is the Eminence driver a good choice? I dunno, but it is cheap. Maybe worth testing. Qts might be a tad high for a horn loaded cab at 0.31
Also, looking at the response graph, you can see it starts falling from 100Hz.

I suggest you keep on looking or just get a set and test it. Can you borrow a variety of drivers and do tests and measurements?

BTW It is a good thing that the owner could build these cabs. Start with two, just to practice the building process and test them with various drivers.

@ Edgewound. Yes, you're correct. 21" might be cool too. Almost flat down to 30Hz... But the mop guy will be busy cleaning up just in front of the scoops... ;-)

http://speakerplans.com/images/21Scooppl.jpg

Lee in Montreal
05-15-2017, 03:38 PM
The idea for 20Hz is that a lot of modern rap, hip hop ETC...

if you want that much meat below or round 30Hz, then look for Bertha's and Levan horns. They'll make you puke your bowels ;-)

Seeing that you have contractors to make some wood work, might well be worth testing one. They would use the same 18" drivers as the scoop. Each cab takes four 4'x8' ;-)

Lee

Tube Radio
05-15-2017, 06:56 PM
Once the owner gets some other projects finished around the rink and the whole complex (expanded restaurant, water park ETC...) I'll mention to him about upgrading the subs and maybe see if he can build one. That means I may have a few months yet to plan this all out.

I may try searching the internet and seeing what drivers others have used with the super scoopers and what results they had.

Far as I'm concerned going down to 30Hz should be good enough.

I could still use the QSC amps as each driver is 8 ohms and it will be two in parallel for a 4 ohm load.


I wonder something. Would it be possible to make a double 18" super scooper and gain more LF response or would the cabinet be a good bit larger than the single 18 super scooper?

Lee in Montreal
05-16-2017, 07:16 AM
A single cabinet will be stiffer than a double one. Just cluster them side by side. Two cabs will go lower as you will combine their mouth areas. I think that to actually fully use the 30Hz capability, you'll need four side by side. ;-) But placing two in corners will help boost the bottom octave as the walls become part of the cabinet. Sort of. ;-).

Lee

Tube Radio
05-16-2017, 08:18 AM
Oh ok. I'll research the super scooper more and when I have enough information I'll present the proposal to the rink owner and see what he wants to do.


That said I did adjust the crossover this past weekend and the current subs seemed to blend in better, but still aren't good enough as on some songs that have a lower bass note that varies down in frequency I can hear the bass start to drop off and start to feel the vibration of the subs themselves.

Ruediger
05-16-2017, 08:22 AM
The plotted Scooper's frequency response does not look like what you would expect. The typical peaks and dips at higher frequencies, when output from cone and horn mouth cancel each other, are missing.

The solid angle into which the speaker(s?) radiated is unspecified. The plot shows the output 3 dB down at 30 Hz, but as stated elsewhere, that requires a group of 4 cabinets.

Ruediger

Tube Radio
05-16-2017, 09:27 AM
Here's the current subs specs.

http://yorkville.com/subwoofers/elite/product/ls1208/

3 db down at 35Hz with a single cabinet.

Using two side by side is better which is how they are currently set up.

Now using two scoopers side by side will there be enough of an improvement over the Yorkvilles?

If not then I need something better than the scoopers as whatever is done needs to be noticeably better than the current subs.

Ruediger
05-16-2017, 11:02 AM
I do not think that the frequency response plot belongs to the Super Scooper. It looks like a simulation. The specs are contradictory and/or incomplete.

I do not say that the Super Scooper is a bad design. It simply is not a quantum leap when compared to the 4530, 4520.

Ruediger

Tube Radio
05-16-2017, 11:29 AM
Also the final specs would be affected by the driver that is used.

cooky1257
05-16-2017, 11:34 AM
With all respect to all previous posts as a number of his designs have been mentioned you could do well to join http://forum.speakerplans.com forum-it's Roger Mogale's site and this kind of stuff is bread and butter to the guys over there.

Tube Radio
05-16-2017, 01:16 PM
I looked at his designs for horns and subs and the only ones that go low enough are the 18" and 21" scoopers.

cooky1257
05-17-2017, 12:04 AM
I looked at his designs for horns and subs and the only ones that go low enough are the 18" and 21" scoopers.

Indeed but the membership are mostly very experienced PA guys-ie they don't just use Roger's designs-lots of knowledge and advice available if you care to tap into it..

Lee in Montreal
05-17-2017, 02:57 AM
Indeed but the membership are mostly very experienced PA guys-ie they don't just use Roger's designs-lots of knowledge and advice available if you care to tap into it..

There are indeed other horn loaded bass bin designs that will out perform the Super Scooper. Like the Terra horn.

http://forum.speakerplans.com/super-bass-horn-v-02-by-startec-quad-acousticsf_topic20503.html

http://metaacoustics.com/images/front-below.jpg

http://www.metaacoustics.com/terra.html

http://www.metaacoustics.com/images/0b-terra-prediction-.jpg

Tube Radio
05-17-2017, 04:11 AM
Indeed but the membership are mostly very experienced PA guys-ie they don't just use Roger's designs-lots of knowledge and advice available if you care to tap into it..

Oh ok will have to check there.


Lee, I'll have to check that horn out.

Can't view that website at work, but I can take a look at lunch when I go to my car to use my phone.

Tube Radio
06-21-2017, 01:50 PM
An update.

Found out from their tech guy that they are going to upgrade all the sound when they finish a new edition which will be later this year.

The skating rink area is 10,000 sq ft.

So whatever subs that are used will need to go down to at least 30Hz fairly flat and fill that space with bass.

I'm thinking that money isn't too much of a thing they are worried about, but I still want to keep the cost reasonable and I'd like to be able to present the benefits of whatever subs are chosen basically selling the idea of the better subs to the rink.

Personally I think the powered QSC speakers they use on the wall are ok as they seem to reproduce the midbass-highs rather well and fill the space with sound without any issues. No echo or any other issues commonly seen with speakers set up like most rinks have them which I think is because none of the wall speakers are actually directly facing each other given they are on swivel mounts and are positioned to where the speaker front is facing the skaters somewhat in the normal skate direction.


I do plan on using those new Yamaha amps for whatever subs are chosen as the DSP will be beneficial for the subs and if those amps do have an output that can be set to high pass that will be even better.

Tube Radio
06-27-2017, 09:14 AM
While getting help at the speakerplan forums I decided to look at some cinema subs

I found a JBL 4645C sub

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/subwoofers/4645c (http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/subwoofers/4645c)

and figured I'd ask the JBL experts here if that would be a good choice.

It is small enough to where I might be able to disperse more of them around the rink than I could with any scoops, G sub or dual 18" subs.

Lee in Montreal
06-27-2017, 11:39 AM
While getting help at the speakerplan forums I decided to look at some cinema subs

I found a JBL 4645C sub

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/subwoofers/4645c (http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/subwoofers/4645c)

and figured I'd ask the JBL experts here if that would be a good choice.

It is small enough to where I might be able to disperse more of them around the rink than I could with any scoops, G sub or dual 18" subs.

So. No longer going with bass horns?

Tube Radio
06-27-2017, 12:22 PM
They sort of steered me away from bass horns.

They said go with the G sub after giving reasons why the horns wouldn't be very good.

I saw a QSC GP-218-SW sub that was similar ti the G sub with better specs.

They also said that what I'm after which is at minimum a -3dB point of 30Hz wasn't possible and to try for 40Hz while using some EQ around 60Hz where the chest thumping bass is.

That wouldn't work for hip-hop that often has bass well below 40Hz.

The problem with the current subs is this.

If the frequency goes below 35Hz the bass output drops rapidly until the subs are just vibrating with no real acoustical output.

Someone over there did just say that with those Yorkville subs in that big of a room I wouldn't get much sub 50Hz bass given they are front horn loaded subs which explains perfectly what I am hearing.

Now question is will the JBL subs I posted here actually fit the bill or will I need a lot of them to do the job or is there something better that will work?

In a way they are getting on my nerves trying to say the idea is not really possible versus trying to figure out what it will take to do it and then figuring out what can actually be done due to space.

Now if horns are the best way to go given the large space I'll go that route as the cost would be much less due to needing less cabinets and less amplifier power.

Doing calculations if I used 8 of the QSC subs 4 per corner including four QSC RMX-5050A amps I'm at a total of $27,439.96 and they recommended doing 8 double stacks of that sub.

If I go with the JBL cinema sub I linked here with 8 subs (two per corner) and one QSC PLD4.5 I'm at $13,623.99

I know going with scoops will get the cost down to under $10,000

Lee in Montreal
06-27-2017, 01:26 PM
Have you visited a few clubs or outdoor events to see what "others" are doing?

BTW Flat-to-30Hz is not that easy to do on a home system. Imagine what it takes for a rink. :D

http://www.sbsslammer.com/images/press_images/188a434fcc3212702561e674326cf6b3.jpg

Tube Radio
06-27-2017, 01:43 PM
I haven't visited other places other than other rinks.

The one rink which uses the JBL 4520 scoops has nice sounding bass and what the cabinets cannot reproduce seem to be negated by how good what the cabinets can reproduce do sound.

I went to one rink in Atlanta that was using several old Electrovoice (I think) speakers which used some sort of aperiodic vented midrange which had the cleanest clearest sound I had ever heard in a skating rink, but the bass was lacking due to only using one dual 15" sub cabinet.

Another used two dual 15" ported JBL cabinets, but they either weren't set up right or didn't go much below 40Hz.

I think a lot of places don't try for the extremely deep bass because they either don't see a point or the necessary space isn't there or they don't want to spend what it will cost ETC...

cooky1257
06-28-2017, 05:41 AM
Sorry to hear they are getting on your nerves, you've been given good advice, the pro install guys over there(including one from QSC) have made some excellent suggestions, such as a mono centrally flown cluster/array or individual subs under/over the existing full range cabs, that you will need multi channel DSP to control eq, time alignment etc, you just aren't listening-they've explained issues you'll face with delay, issues with a wall of subs at one end beating up skaters as they go past,the inescapable physics of trying to fill that space at 30hz when 40hz and good kick at 60-80hz is what you really need. I recommend the owner engages a pro install company.

Tube Radio
06-28-2017, 06:30 AM
They are giving good advice, but I feel they aren't necessarily exploring all the options such as scoops or other larger format horns.

What I would like to see is all possible options no matter how expensive just so I can see why some things are not practical as I often have to be shown why an idea won't work.

That said knowing from experience dealing with my dad (auto mechanic and I'm not) some people who are very knowledgeable at what they do sometimes think others know it as good as they do and may explain things very technical thinking the person surely understands or explain things not quite good enough thinking the person should surely know the rest. For me it's got to be explained in a way that this non-expert can easily understand.

All that said it is a great forum over there and that QSC employee did provide some very useful information concerning the tops I am using at the rink.

The rink I used to skate at uses four JBL 4520 cabinets with one in each corner and the bass seems to sound ok across the whole floor. It was lacking in the deep bass for sure, but they seemed to do a reasonably good job of covering the floor with what bass they could reproduce.

The 18" super scoopers will of course go a little lower and might be the more reasonable choice for better bass than what I have now even if I cannot get a -3dB point of 30Hz. Suppose I could use one of the QSC 4 channel amps with DSP to power the scoops and the DSP will allow me to make the scoops sound their best over the frequency range they can reproduce. Perhaps just like with the JBL 4520 scoops if I get the scoopers sounding very good, the bass they cannot reproduce won't be missed by me or anyone else.

Lee in Montreal
06-28-2017, 06:50 AM
Don't forget either that you will also have to shape the sound to your liking. Most of the bass happens between, say, 35Hz and 80Hz. Then you get that round "comfort" bass around 40 to 60Hz. Obviously, you also need to have cabs that can reproduce the range you want. ;-)

My take is that you will need to experiment, not just take comments for face value. First try analyzing the material you want to reproduce. Does the music you play really have that much 30Hz content? In these days of MP3 and earbuds, you will be surprised. What about borrowing a pair of 4520s or any other bass bins and play with them for a day at the rink while there's nobody? See what these cabs give you in raw form, and then shape the sound to your liking? What about spending a few hundred bucks and build one or two big bass horns? Some of them are designed for cheap 18" Eminence woofers, which you can also probably borrow.

BTW Who knew that Richard Long did the install at the Empire Skate rink in 1980? Bass bins (looks like four Waldorf) in the center.

https://massappeal.com/empire-skating-rink-10-year-anniversary-closing/

https://massappeal.com/wp-content/uploads/empire-skating-rink-sound-system.jpg

Tube Radio
06-28-2017, 07:37 AM
Unfortunately I don't know of any bass bins I can borrow at the moment.

Perhaps I can build the scoopers then use a larger bass horn somewhere in the rink for the lower bass or perhaps two scoopers per corner will reach 35Hz better than the current subs and be enough.

What was mentioned on the other forum is the current subs how they are configured with them being in such a large space I wouldn't get much bass response under around 55Hz. So perhaps that is what I am actually hearing and not getting anywhere near flat response as I go lower in frequency as it does seem like the bass is stronger as the frequency of the bass goes higher.

I could always do the scoopers and later on if I should find it necessary add a larger bass horn for the lower bass.

I know from listening to some hip-hop on my car stereo, home stereo and hearing others car stereos a lot of it does have strong low bass. Down to 20Hz, maybe not as much, but definitely to around 30Hz.

That said once I present a design and the cabinets are built and installed I have to go with whatever sound I get, but if it is any improvement over what I have now I will be happy.

Think they are doing the sound system sometime late this year so I still have a few months in which to work it all out.

Shaping the sound to my liking would work as I do have good ears and know when something sounds right and when it don't, but I also will get the opinions of others once it is set up and tweaked properly to see what they think.

For a skating rink the sound system is very important as the sound quality can determine if people skate or think about how bad the sound is.

My goal is to provide the best possible sound system within reason.

1audiohack
06-28-2017, 09:14 AM
This is a response given a friend of mine by the mighty Geo. A.

"You are trying to develop a speaker system that sounds good to you rather than conforming to a set of test specifications. Any advice I give you is only guesswork."

The main difference in the above pet project and yours is that the above is self financed. It looks like you would like your pet project financed by the rink owner. You obviously know what you want to do so it is up to you to sell it.

While not knocking scoops, there is a myriad of reasons why they have fallen from favor in the proaudio arena. It's not suprising that you are met with resistance in trying to get them implemented. As for getting a sound company to provide you a study on all options including obsolete systems and explaining it all to you on your level of understanding seems an aweful lot to ask.

If you can't buy a takeout system or duplicate one you like, you are not only swimming up stream but are faced with a waterfall. Currently there are horn loaded subs and horn loaded full range boxes that will smoke anything made less than a decade ago.

As for (relative term warning) inexpensive power, I am horsing around with a UK made tour grade 20,000 watt two/four channel amp that is only 2u tall, yeah 3.5" tall with on board DSP, and it sounds great.

This isn't given with any intent to offend. Honestly I held to the old ways pretty strongly but in the last several years have seen a new light. It shines brightly.

All the best,
Barry.

Tube Radio
06-28-2017, 10:54 AM
It's more along of wanting to know what ways there are of doing the bass and a brief explanation of the pros and cons of each method.

In my opinion going with more modern high powered subs and the amps to drive them can be a rather expensive way to do it especially when it will take more than a few cabinets to achieve a frequency response of at least 40Hz in such a large space.

Whereas doing something with horns which are more efficient would mean less boxes which equates to less amplifier power needed and less overall money being spent.

Thing is I don't know how much money the rink wants to spend on the sound system so whatever I do has to work reasonably well and not be extremely expensive.

emilime75
06-28-2017, 03:23 PM
Have to ask, what's the point of all this without a definitive goal and budget?

Any and all suggestions are useless until you know what the client is willing to spend, and an actual goal set.

Did the owner of the rink even engage you in upgrading their system? Or is this something you're doing on your own and hoping they go for it?

Tube Radio
06-28-2017, 04:57 PM
They are planning on upgrading their system later this year and I explained the deficiencies and said I'd ask around on forums for the right subs that should be used. They did agree.

The budget goal far as I'm concerned is getting the best bang for their money.

If for instance I could achieve the same goal with 8 scoopers as i could with 16 dual 18 QSC subs I'd choose the scoopers as the cost would be less.

Mr. Widget
06-28-2017, 06:29 PM
In my opinion going with more modern high powered subs and the amps to drive them can be a rather expensive way to do it especially when it will take more than a few cabinets to achieve a frequency response of at least 40Hz in such a large space.I think you'll find that building high quality low frequency horns will prove that making them is far less inexpensive than it may appear on the surface. If you have a weekend warrior building the horns for fun they may become cost effective, but paying for professionally built horns will make factory built bass reflex cabinets with large amps seem like bargains.


Widget

Tube Radio
06-28-2017, 07:12 PM
If I did go with horns the rink owner also owns a construction company so it wouldnt cost him much to build them.

emilime75
06-28-2017, 08:06 PM
Good, they're on board and realize the need to upgrade. You still need a budget. Everyone wants "best bang for the buck", but 5 bucks, $500, $5000...it makes a big difference. Find out what they are willing to spend on the entire upgrade, and if that budget includes them building whatever cabinets you decide on. Once you know that, you can start looking at the gear necessary to achieve(or come as close as you can to) your goals.

Having them capable of building cabinets is great, but it will still cost money. A large bass horn can easily take 4-5 sheets of good quality plywood, compared to maybe 1-2 sheets for a typical, bass reflex enclosure of suitable size. Baltic Birch would be ideal, not the "cabinet grade" stuff found at Home Depot/Lowe's/Menards...whatever you've got in your parts. BB plywood costs roughly $80-100/sheet. So, as an example, let's say you want to build 4 large bass horns, you're looking at roughly $2k in materials alone.

Tube Radio
06-28-2017, 08:27 PM
Oh ok didn't know materials were all so expensive.

Plus factor in having to pay the employee to build the cabinets.

It may be cheaper to find some 4520 cabinets and try them.

Perhaps 8 of them with a pair in each corner will work good enough.

Radley
07-02-2017, 01:58 PM
Hello,
I looked up the Yorkville subs and they don't look too bad. Sensitivity is 105dB with 139dB peak. They want a 4,000 watt amp per cabinet. Yorkville calls the design a "basspipe multiple flare horn".

I'm guessing the subs aren't getting 4,000 watts at 8 ohms to each cabinet?

I'm also curious about the 100Hz crossover point between the 8" QSC's? One might want to bump that up to 150Hz?

Tube Radio
07-02-2017, 03:18 PM
Each of the two QSC amps are run in bridged mono with two subs in parallel.

I've found that when I lowered the crossover to 70Hz the bass was a bit better and the overall sound quality improved a good bit.

It also told me that I really didn't need anything exotic like large horns or a load of regular subs and that adding one sub in each of the other corners will be enough.

Last night it became blatantly obvious that the mids and highs aren't very clear.

Based on that I recommended this option to the rink.

One JBL SRX828SP per corner

Some JBL SRX812P for the tops.

The nice thing there is they can be connected to a computer via Ethernet which permits me to get the sound dialed in just right. I can even use a tablet and be in the middle of the rink while I dial in the sound.

Here's some pictures. How many other tops will I need with one hanging above each sub and where should the other tops be hung and how high?

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab196/jmcinvale/Skating%20rink/20170701_002219.jpg (http://s863.photobucket.com/user/jmcinvale/media/Skating%20rink/20170701_002219.jpg.html)

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab196/jmcinvale/Skating%20rink/20170701_002210.jpg (http://s863.photobucket.com/user/jmcinvale/media/Skating%20rink/20170701_002210.jpg.html)

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab196/jmcinvale/Skating%20rink/20170701_002158.jpg (http://s863.photobucket.com/user/jmcinvale/media/Skating%20rink/20170701_002158.jpg.html)

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab196/jmcinvale/Skating%20rink/20170701_002147.jpg (http://s863.photobucket.com/user/jmcinvale/media/Skating%20rink/20170701_002147.jpg.html)

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab196/jmcinvale/Skating%20rink/20170701_002139.jpg (http://s863.photobucket.com/user/jmcinvale/media/Skating%20rink/20170701_002139.jpg.html)

Also given the speakers are powered I thought about using a wireless audio transmitter and receiver to reduce the chance of a ground loop.

Is that a good idea or will it be ok to connect them via regular audio cables?

Lee in Montreal
07-02-2017, 03:19 PM
Isn't it interesting that 3 or 4 years ago Pioneer Pro Audio has included in its catalog the 40 years old Bertha and Levan horns designs from Richard Long & Associates ? :eek:

http://pioneerproaudio.com/en/products/gs_wave/wav_sub.html
http://pioneerproaudio.com/en/products/gs_wave/wav_horn.html

http://www.lightsoundjournal.com/2016/11/08/berlin-nightclub-magdalena-chooses-pioneer-pro-audio/

http://ziogiorgio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/magdalena_photo_01-e1478723448701.jpg

Even using the famous tweeter pods as designed by RLA

http://ziogiorgio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/magdalena_photo_03-e1478723499488.jpg

Tube Radio
07-02-2017, 03:42 PM
Very nice.

Didn't know Pioneer was into pro audio.

Goes to show that some designs are stil good today.

Don't know if the rink would have enough for a pioneer system put together by pioneer, but that would be the way to go.

EDIT: I liked what I saw on Pioneer pro's website so much that I decided to present that as an option to the rink.

Lee in Montreal
07-02-2017, 08:52 PM
Very nice.

Didn't know Pioneer was into pro audio.

Goes to show that some designs are stil good today.

Don't know if the rink would have enough for a pioneer system put together by pioneer, but that would be the way to go.

EDIT: I liked what I saw on Pioneer pro's website so much that I decided to present that as an option to the rink.

You won't have the money for it. But you can replicate it somehow. Especially if you have access you carpenters / woodworkers.

cooky1257
07-03-2017, 01:32 AM
Very nice.

Didn't know Pioneer was into pro audio.

Goes to show that some designs are stil good today.

Don't know if the rink would have enough for a pioneer system put together by pioneer, but that would be the way to go.

EDIT: I liked what I saw on Pioneer pro's website so much that I decided to present that as an option to the rink.

Have you read this? in particular page 8/9. ;A practical guide to bass arrays. http://www.voidaudio.pl/attachments/article/147/A%20Practical%20Guide%20To%20Bass%20Arrays%20%28an gielski%29.pdf

and this from JBL;https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/140110_AE_Series_Array_Guide_v06.pdf

emilime75
07-03-2017, 06:26 AM
I would highly suggest not going wireless. Get bulk, shielded, 2 conductor + ground cable and connectors to build your own balanced interconnects...XLRs are better if both source and end devices accept them, TRS is next down in line.

If you choose to go with passive, instead of active cabinets, place the amplifiers as close to them as possible to avoid long speaker cable runs. The longer the speaker cable run is, the larger the guages has to be i.e. more expensive, adds resistance, lowers damping factors...

Tube Radio
07-03-2017, 03:52 PM
Don't know how much the rink can spend, but I do know the owner owns an apartment complex across the road, owns a construction company and also is building a water park on the same property as the rink.

So perhaps they would have the money if it can be proven that the benefits will outweigh the cost.

Thinking about it I wouldn't go wireless.

I'm so used to ground loops being a potential issue with unbalanced connections that I automatically assumed balanced connections had the same issue.

That one article by Roger Mogale I had sen previously as someone on the other forum had posted it.

Was eye opening at how difficult it can be to get the bass just right.

That said based on the experiment of lowering the crossover frequency and getting better bass I feel that four of the JBL subs with one in each corner will be good enough.

Using the JBL tops and a lower crossover frequency will help as well.

So I'm thinking one top over each sub and one between two columns angled down towards the skate floor so that no two tops directly face each other.

That would give a total of 12 tops.

Tube Radio
09-05-2017, 06:55 AM
Getting back to this.

I would love to use these speakers

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/installed-sound/marquis-dance-club

namely the sub, but at nearly $7,000 each I doubt the rink will buy any and I'm sure the other speakers in that series are expensive as well not to mention none of it being self powered so amps would be required, but if the owner wanted to go all out I believe that's the series I would go for.

If going with that series I'd want a pro to decide how many of what speakers were needed and where to put them.

Perhaps 1-2 subs and one MD3 per corner with 8 MD2 speakers around the rink and some MD1 speakers dispersed around to fill in the high frequencies.

Or 8 arrays of one MD7 sub and one MD49 each.

Would be some serious cash needed though.

The previous part of this post is basically just some what ifs.


Now the real plan is to start out with four of these subs one per corner with the ability to add one more per corner at a later date if it is found that more are needed.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/portable-market/srx800-series/srx828sp

and 8 of these tops with one hanging above each sub and two each on the long walls

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/portable-market/srx800-series/srx812p


On a side note I did notice a huge improvement in clarity Saturday night when I moved the left channel of the computer input to the adjacent stereo input channel which then allowed me to have a mono signal out of the mixer so I could remove a stereo to mono combiner that the mixer fed which I think may have used two transformers.

Before the upper midrange sounded a bit muddy and quite harsh with some music. Now it sounds much better to the point where I'd almost consider keeping the QSC speakers in place and just do the JBL subs, but other factors such as the 8" woofer size demand I replace them.

I myself try to avoid using transformers for anything pro audio related as they often can and do negatively affect the sound quality and are usually just a quick cheap fix instead of doing it right.

Tube Radio
10-22-2017, 04:06 PM
Time for an update.

I got the current system tweaked as good as it could be and removing a stereo to mono adapter (uses transformers i think) from the mixer output cleared up the upper midrange and treble.

Just when I thought it couldn't get any better I connected a USB sound card to the computer used for the music.

If my jaw could have hit the floor it would have as I was dumbfounded at how much better the bass sounded.

The subs simply disappeared and only the bass was heard. In fact the bass seemed to be better distributed across the whole skate floor.

The integration of the subs and wall speakers is now much better.

Only thing I can figure is that there was some sort of phase shift in the bass coming from the onboard sound.

I ordered the cables and connectors to build a pair of balanced cables so that I can run a balanced line to the mixer which will eliminate a ground loop isolator I built with a pair of EDCOR 15K-15K transformers.

That may clean up the sound even more.


On a side note I skated at the rink with the JBL 4520 cabinets and realized they really aren't a good choice for modern hip-hop and R&B given they don't reprodce the low bass at all with any real authority, but would have been fine for the music out when the rink was built.

Tube Radio
10-31-2017, 11:21 AM
I am hoping that soon the sound system upgrades will start.
They had delays with their water park which I'm sure put the restaurant addition behind and also put the sound system upgrades behind as they are going to be done when the restaurant is almost finished.
The current Yorkville subs have a peak SPL of 139 dB. Now with two side by side does that increase at all?
The JBL SRX828SP subs have a max SPL of 141 dB

The Yorkville is rated at 2000 watts (4000 peak / 1000 continuous)
The JBL is rated at 2000 watts peak (1000 watts X2) 1500 watts continuous (750 watts X 2)
Given I will have one JBL sub in each corner is that going to be enough or should I do two per corner?
The JBL has the same -3 dB point as the Yorkvilles which is 35Hz, but I suppose a little eq could help that and the built in amp in the JBL subs may have a setting for that.
I'm also thinking about adding an extra JBL SRX812P in the DJ booth fed from one of the aux sends of the mixer which will serve as a monitor speaker. That way I can make it to where the mic doesn't feed that speaker so there's no chance of feedback.

When the system starts to be redone I'm going to recommend they do a complete rewire far as the balanced line to each speaker input.

Now should I have a stereo feed to each speaker since the mixer does have a couple of stereo channel inputs or is a mono feed good enough?

I'll also recommend that instead of how they have it now with connectors spliced into the cable for each speaker (can possibly cause hum pickup as the splices are unshielded) that they use the line output jacks which are in parallel with the inputs to feed the next speaker with the only split in the cable then having to be the sub by the DJ booth which can be done in the booth itself as I don't see a point in routing the main signal wires to the sub then back in the booth to go up the wall.

I get the impression that the AV/computer guy there trusts me as he asked my opinion on how to feed the sound to the restaurant addition and outdoor bar.

What really surprises me is the fact that I'm getting decent bass response without resorting to the gobs of subs in clusters the other forum I posted on said to use.

I think that has a lot to do with the tops and subs being in proper phase now without the phase shift in the low bass that the internal sound card must have done.

Lee in Montreal
10-31-2017, 11:43 AM
Add 3db for a pair and another 3db for mutual coupling

Tube Radio
10-31-2017, 11:54 AM
Add 3db for a pair and another 3db for mutual coupling

That would be 145 dB max with the yorkvilles given there's two per corner.

Now because there's only subs in two corners will one JBL per corner sound louder across the whole rink or will I need two subs per corner?

emilime75
11-07-2017, 12:57 PM
Active speakers might negate this, as their DSP capability may be powerful enough to not need an external processor. Having said that, it's best practice to run a separate feed to each speaker from the control booth, or wherever the main system equipment will live. This way, if things need to be reconfigured down the line and additional processing becomes necessary, the wiring is already in place. Since you'll be pulling new wire anyway, it's a small cost difference(price of wire) to pull a few extra runs at the same time.

The audience will be constantly moving and facing in all sorts of directions...go mono.

I may be wrong here, but it's generally better to stack drivers producing the same frequency ranges, like subs, then it is to place them side by side. Stacked gives a wider(horizontal), but shallower(vertical) polar, while side by side gives a tall(vertical), but narrow(horizontal) polar pattern. Speaker manufacturers try to overcome this issue with trapezoidal boxes designed for horizontal arrays, but they're still not ideal.

Also, keep in mind that, although active speakers with built in amps may seem like the best thing since sliced bread, there are downsides. Mainly, if the amp module dies, and they do, you can't easily swap another amp in its place and keep the show going. Even if you bought spare modules, you'd have to do the repair out among the audience, and if your hi-tops are flown you then have the added difficulty of getting up there to do so. You don't want to drag out ladders/scaffolding/lifts to get up there while the place is full of customers.

Tube Radio
11-07-2017, 01:22 PM
The plan is to go mono.

Each speaker has two inputs so I had figured on using both so that I am not limited to a mono mixer or a mixer set to mono or only using one channel of a stereo mixer provided the mixing at the speakers won't cause any issues with sound quality.

emilime75
11-07-2017, 02:46 PM
The second input is intended to be used with a separate source. As an example, audio from an instrument/music player/mixer into input 1, and a local microphone into input 2. You don't want to run a stereo signal to the box and use inputs 1+2 for your L+R signals. If your mixer doesn't have a mono output, you'll want to use a summing device and only use 1 input per speaker. It's possible the DSP has a summing feature built in, but that's quite a waste to use up 2 cables and inputs to sum at the box. No benefit of running a stereo signal to 1 speaker. Stereo only works in pairs, with some distance between them and a stationary audience facing said speakers.

Tube Radio
11-07-2017, 06:11 PM
Hadn't thought of that. Had figured that would be a good way to sum a stereo signal to mono.

Now the tops do have a sum output which I suppose is used to feed other speakers if two sources are used at one speaker.

The way the current speakers are wired is one long cable with short cables spliced in to the main cable with plugs on each short cable to plug into the powered speakers. The issue there is each splice is out in the open so at each splice the signal wires are unshielded which is a good way to pick up hum which I do hear slightly if there's no audio playing.

I will recommend running wire to the first speaker which will be the sub then using the output jack (paralleled with the input) to feed the next speaker and so on and so forth until all are connected.

The only issue is the sub that will be near the booth. I'll just use a splitter in the booth to feed the line to that sub and the rest of the speakers.

Another option which will give the flexibility you mentioned is to use a rack mount patch panel with the jacks in parallel fed by the mixer with each speaker's signal wire going to the panel. I seriously doubt they will go for that as it will mean that much more wire being used.

Originally there was a stereo to mono box used, but it made the upper midrange sound quite shrill.

I knew the QSC powered tops were quality so I figured it was that box.

Removed the box and used just one output from the mixer and the sound cleared up quite nicely.

The way the sound card connects is to two mono channels since the card has a balanced output (necessary to clear up a ground loop) and the two stereo inputs are unbalanced while the line inputs on the mono channels are balanced. That works good as there is a mono feed to the output.

Overall the sound is much better than when I first started working with it, but the JBL speakers will make so much more of an improvement.

I use magic by Olivia Newton John as a test track as her voice is high enough to test the clarity of the upper midrange which on a proper system her voice should come through without any shrillness and you should hear every breath she takes. Also tests the midbass as there's a drum part that on a proper system is very easily heard, but if the midbass is not right or the crossover between the subs and tops isn't set right that drum part is very hard to hear.

Having ran the sound system at church for around 10 years I notice the small things others might miss and it is very easy for me to hear when something is not right.

Sometimes if I want to hear one speaker I'll cup my hands behind each ear and look at the speaker standing close to it.

emilime75
11-08-2017, 05:48 PM
Belden 9451 can be found as cheap as $179/1000 foot roll. It's thin, easy to pull, good quality cable widely used in commercial, fixed installations for line level audio signal.

If you're the rink's audio system advisor, I'd highly suggest "talking them into" running a dedicated line to each box.

A "patch bay" isn't necessary, use screw terminal strips to land all of the individual runs. Do it in a concise order and label things clearly. Run another cable from your head end, which it sounds like will be a mixing console of some kind, to the first terminal strips and then make short jumpers from there to each cable used. This is a cheap and effective method that does not require a ton of connectors and patch cables. Screw terminal strips are cheap. Just remember you'll need 3 poles for each run when you're designing your audio signal path and ordering the strips.

Tube Radio
11-08-2017, 06:06 PM
True the patch bay isn't necessary, but it will sure make things much easier than the terminal strips especially if something needs to be reconfigured.

Tube Radio
01-16-2018, 11:09 AM
Another update.

For the QSC speakers I switched the LF switch to norm on all speakers and I set the two way crossover to 70Hz and the sound is much better.

I am going to see about perhaps trying to get in a subwoofer upgrade.

I'm pretty sure they might not go for the JBL SRX828S given they are $1,600 each so would there be another comparable or better JBL sub that costs less or a better sub that costs the same?

At the moment all I am wanting is one sub in each corner.