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NWCgrad
12-07-2016, 03:49 AM
Based on what I have learned from this forum (and others) I built a rather large, JBLish 3-way speaker. Design goal was to have horn loading from 200 Hz up. The midhorn is the one designed by Wayne Parham (Pi Speakers). Thanks to Speakerdave I will shortly have a pair of JBL2012H's for the midhorn (currently using 20123H's which are not optimal for this application).

Computer Drawing of the speaker concept:
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Enclosure Design:
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The numbers to the left of the concept speaker are the center-to-center distances and the height from the floor to the midpoint between the MF and HF drivers.

Temporary XO/DSP is provided by a Peavey VSX26 unit. I added a protective capacitor (39 uF, ~510 Hz 1st order) and L-pad attenuation circuit (-6 dB) to the HF driver. The Peavey VSX26 is known to add hiss if used to attenuate the signal, thus I provided most of the required attenuation passively (remainder is added at the amp).

I will be working on the XO/DSP settings, which is likely to be continual learning process. Goal of the design is for my ability - somewhat limited as I am electronically challenged - to dial in the speakers to be the weak link.

Thanks for looking.

NWCgrad
12-07-2016, 03:54 AM
A few construction photo's:
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I pilfered the 22242 drivers from the 4645B cabinets shown in the picture above. I shot for a net cabinet size of 8 cu ft for the build so I could match the tune of the 4645B cabinet which are fantastic in my view (especially for music). I am not chasing single digit bass, I am happy for solid performance to 20 Hz when coupled with a pair of DIY subs feature Eminence Lab12 drivers.

NWCgrad
12-07-2016, 03:58 AM
Close-up of the midhorn (with a JBL 2123H driver):
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Initial position in the room, will play with toe-in as I optimize:
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I went with a blue color (Behr marquis "Real Navy") as a spur of the moment decision in Home Depot. I was tired of standard black speakers. The Real Navy color seemed appropriate as the speakers are my gift to myself for making 06 in the navy.

NWCgrad
12-07-2016, 04:42 AM
A few more construction photo's to cap off the build portion, Baltic birch was used exclusively (except for a couple of 2x4 braces).
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Note: The ports are not blocked by the material used to secure the insulation. I used small pieces of hardboard and a nail gun to secure the fabric to the braces to ensure they do not sag over time and block the ports.

srm51555
12-07-2016, 05:47 AM
Nice build, thanks for sharing.

NWCgrad
12-07-2016, 06:04 AM
Nice build, thanks for sharing.

Thanks...my wife was getting tired of the stacked speakers dominating the front of the home theater/family room. These speakers, while rather large, take up much less visual space than the stack they replace.

JeffW
12-07-2016, 07:32 AM
Heck of a concept, I bet those really get up and boogie!

NWCgrad
12-08-2016, 04:28 AM
Heck of a concept, I bet those really get up and boogie!

They surely do! Listening to Bela Fleck and the Flecktones "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" is really something!

Here is adown and dirty measurement from the listening position (13.5') of the speakers with two subwoofers (20 hz tuning, Lab-12 drivers):

It needs a LOT of work. Didn't have time to properly integrate the subs and it is clearly super hot down low, not really ready for prime time. I toned down the bass based on listening sessions but have not yet had time to break our REW and measure. Will be swapping out mid drivers soon, will then really start to dial in the system.

daveschott
12-08-2016, 06:16 AM
They surely do! Listening to Bela Fleck and the Flecktones "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" is really something!



Be careful when playing that tune, those may damage your houses's foundation!

1audiohack
12-08-2016, 07:16 AM
Looks like my kind of loud speaker! Nicely done.

Barry.

NWCgrad
12-09-2016, 05:32 AM
So far I have found them to be very enjoyable.

I hope they sound even better soon. The 2012H drivers arrived yesterday from speakerdave. They were packaged to survive the rigors of shipping and arrived in perfect condition. I cannot wait to get one installed so I can measure how it performs compared to the 2123H.

1audiohack
12-09-2016, 06:06 AM
I have a pretty good idea of how this will turn out. :)

I like 2123's quite a bit but a 2020 on a horn is a marvelous thing!

Barry.

NWCgrad
12-10-2016, 03:56 AM
I installed one of the 2012's yesterday and made a lot of measurements with REW at a microphone distance of 33.5" (this distance was based on a 36" aluminum bar pushed up against the front of the speaker and my microphone stand placed at the end of the bar, this allowed me to move from speaker to speaker and have repeatable measurements). I was surprised to find that neither driver really performed better than the other, and using 4 DSP equalization points was able to get both +/- 1 dB across the required frequency range.

Things that make you hmmmmm and what the heck!

grumpy
12-10-2016, 09:06 AM
I would call this a good result, as FR is only one of many measurements...
Then there is the listening :)

NWCgrad
12-10-2016, 11:48 AM
Listening is always the final word!

I need to change the thread title, just ordered a pair of the STX/VTX 90x40 waveguides and JBL 2453H-SL drivers. The Speaker Exchange has a ridiculous prive on the 2453H-SL drivers, at less than $280 ea brand new I couldn't justify going with one of the older (yet higher quality) drivers.The aquaplas coating is critical for home usage in my view, raw titanium is to much for up close listening (13 ft distance from speaker to the primary listening position).

Will require lots more measurements and tweaking. Now i will be able to crossover to the midhorn around 1 kHz. Hard to do that with the B&C DE250.

Earl K
12-10-2016, 01:05 PM
I would call this a good result, as FR is only one of many measurements...
Then there is the listening :)

I use both the 2012 & the 2123 in small SR cabinets ( delay +/or front-fill boxes that don't handle much below 100hz ).
- In that capacity, I find the two models interchangeable ( & audibly, mostly indistinguishable, once EQed ) .

Ultimately though, (at the end-of-the-day PLUS all those other tired cliches ) the 1/2" deep gap ( of the 2012 ) should offer the listener, a higher resolution listening experience .

The trouble is, there are countless different ways to derail arriving at that audible benefit .
- For instance; nothing turns great audio quality ( quicker ) into some piss poor sounding ( MP3-like ) listening experience, than lousy acoustics ( which is normal in my work experience ).

Anyways, Good Luck NWCg with your project !

:)

rusty jefferson
12-10-2016, 03:58 PM
.....The aquaplas coating is critical for home usage in my view, raw titanium is to much for up close listening (13 ft distance from speaker to the primary listening position).....

Yeah, I gotta disagree with that. Titanium is fine. I sit in the near field (7-8 feet), and my system is very smooth on top. It's what you feed it that matters, imho. :)

NWCgrad
12-10-2016, 04:54 PM
Yeah, I gotta disagree with that. Titanium is fine. I sit in the near field (7-8 feet), and my system is very smooth on top. It's what you feed it that matters, imho. :)

Well, I'm sure not going to disagree with your experience!!!!

gdmoore28
12-11-2016, 05:57 PM
Your new speaks look great, NWCgrad! They have a very functional and muscular look to them that is sure to stimulate the appropriate "Look Here" neurons. I especially like the horn loaded midrange speaker. Based on the components alone, those puppies are sure to sing quite a siren's song.

And thanks for posting pics of the build in process. You have a very keen sense of order and precision that is exemplified by your attention to detail - even where the sun don't shine.

Surely you need more bracing, though! ;) ;)

Well done, sir.

GeeDeeEmm

NWCgrad
12-12-2016, 11:30 AM
Your new speaks look great, NWCgrad! They have a very functional and muscular look to them that is sure to stimulate the appropriate "Look Here" neurons. I especially like the horn loaded midrange speaker. Based on the components alone, those puppies are sure to sing quite a siren's song.

And thanks for posting pics of the build in process. You have a very keen sense of order and precision that is exemplified by your attention to detail - even where the sun don't shine.

Surely you need more bracing, though! ;) ;)

Well done, sir.

GeeDeeEmm

Thanks for the kind words. I am pretty sure I could find a way to wedge more bracing into the cabinets. :bouncy: I spent about a year dreaming/scheming on the project before starting, took awhile to gather all the drivers.

JeffW
12-12-2016, 01:32 PM
I think he was going for ironic, they look to be well braced.

dezmond
12-12-2016, 09:29 PM
You did a real nice job. The 2242 is one sweet bass driver. Keep us posted how the tuning goes.

NWCgrad
12-15-2016, 05:23 AM
My order of the waveguides and compression drivers should arrive tomorrow. I ended up ordering the JBL 2452H drivers instead of the 2453H-SL (backorder, worried it could take forever to fill the order). I will be ordering the appropriate SL diaphragms for the 2452's ASAP. My understanding is that any of the aquaplas coated 4" diaphragms will work in the 2452's. I will probably order the part number for the 2452 unless I find an exceptional cost differential. I really want the Truextent beryllium, but that will have to wait at least 48 months.

I hope to install them over the weekend, but my wife's 50th birthday is coming up and she may have other plans for the weekend.

Will post measurements soon, waiting until I get the new drivers installed. I am hopeful that the JBL drivers will perform better than the B&C DE250's in this configuration.

Any thoughts on the lowest XO setting that the VTX/STX waveguide will support? I am shooting for 800 Hz, but that may be to low. Measurements and distortion data will be useful for this determination, but if more experienced users could chime in I would be grateful.

Preliminary XO settings (theoretical):
LF: BW-12, 25 Hz / LR-24, 200 Hz
MF: LR-24, 200 Hz / LR-24, 800 Hz
HF: LR-24, 800 Hz / Flat

Will play around with actual XO slopes, theoretical rarely survives measurements and listening tests.

allen mueller
12-16-2016, 03:31 AM
Will post measurements soon, waiting until I get the new drivers installed. I am hopeful that the JBL drivers will perform better than the B&C DE250's in this configuration.


In my experience with the DE250 and other 1" exit drivers vs larger compression drivers is is they can't compare to the dynamics and less distortion you get out of the bigger drivers. The smaller drivers may have the advantage on HF extension but personally I always find my self gravitating back to the bigger drivers even with out the use of a UHF driver. Of coarse this is all personal preference but I think you'll be happy with the switch.

Al

NWCgrad
12-24-2016, 11:40 AM
I returned the 2452H drivers, ordered three 2453H-SL drivers in their place. For less money than the 2452H + the 2452H-SL diaphragms I was able to get three drivers allowing me to have the same waveguide/compression driver across the front.

Ordered a new Dbx VENU360 and three Crown XLS1500 amps to go with my new Crown CT4150 amp. Will have all Harmon products for the LCR'S, from DSP to amplification and drivers.

Once all the materials come in I will be in full dial in mode. Will be taking a lot of measurements in what will likely be an iterative process.

NWCgrad
01-28-2017, 05:58 AM
Everthing has arrived, the 2453H-SL drivers were on backorder.

Because the waveguides are rebated into the cabinet, and the JBL ones are slightly larger than the ones they are replacing, I need to make a new jig for routering the recess. Not looking forward to manhandling these brutes. I can't see getting them outside, will router the new waveguide recess in the house. Not a good option, but only removing around 1/8" material on each end of the HF horn rebate.

Hopefully by end of weekend will be 100% complete with construction and can then focus on dialing them in with the dbx unit (which is a great 👍 piece of gear)!

Flodstroem
01-29-2017, 01:05 PM
Hopefully by end of weekend will be 100% complete with construction and can then focus on dialing them in with the dbx unit (which is a great 👍 piece of gear)!

Nice speaker build NWCgrad and thanks for posting all the good picture of your project.
Btw, Hey, They are really good the Bela Fleck and the Flecktones Thanks for making them visible to me :p

NWCgrad
01-30-2017, 11:17 AM
I am glad you like Bela Fleck and the Flecktones, I listen to a wide range of music and this CD is always in the rotation.

grumpy
01-30-2017, 01:18 PM
When I'm in the right mood, the several BF&F recordings I have are great :)
Looking forward to your system progress!

NWCgrad
02-02-2017, 07:34 AM
Finally prepared the VTX waveguide and 2453H-SL drivers for mounting. Due to the physical differences between the 2453 and 2452 drivers a 1/2" spacer wad added between the CD and the waveguide.
7580575806


Third midhorn waveguide for future center channel build:
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NWCgrad
02-02-2017, 07:43 AM
Another view of the third midhorn:

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I will modify the horn a bit to make the mouth 3.5" x 3.5" vice the standard 4.5" x 4.5" because I am going to use a new JBL Pro 2169H 8" mid driver for the center channel speaker. This driver was designed for a 4" mouth horn. A 4" circular opening is essentially the same area as a 3.5" x 3.5" mouth. I doubt the 2169H driver will reach 300 Hz, but if it can get to 350 Hz I will be happy.

JeffW
02-02-2017, 08:03 AM
Is that bamboo, or what am I seeing here?

NWCgrad
02-02-2017, 08:20 AM
It is bamboo. Crazy hard material should be great for a horn. I did not make this one, it is being gifted to me. One of the best gifts ever in my view!

badman
02-02-2017, 12:23 PM
It is bamboo. Crazy hard material should be great for a horn. I did not make this one, it is being gifted to me. One of the best gifts ever in my view!

Whoever gifted that should talk w/wayne at Pi speakers and see if he would want to stock them- that's really attractive. I'd probably not pursue it personally as I'm sure they'd have to be several benjamins but there's a market for a really great looking horn like that.

Audiobeer
02-03-2017, 09:53 AM
Out PHUNKIN Standing! craftsmanship!

NWCgrad
02-03-2017, 05:08 PM
I installed the VTX waveguide and 2453H-SL drivers today. Have not had time to measure to optimize. For now I have set the HF XO at 1 kHz, LR-4th order; MF at 200 Hz and 1 kHz, and LF at 200 Hz. I am sure it's not optimal in regards to phase, measurements will tell the story.

I ran autoEQ on the dbx unit to equalize the volume of all the drivers and set preliminary PEQ. Sounds pretty fair for automated, no effort approach.

NWCgrad
02-03-2017, 05:10 PM
Front stage:

hsosdrum
02-06-2017, 01:28 PM
Outstanding! Howzit sound?

JuniorJBL
02-06-2017, 10:29 PM
Very nice NWC!! Those are reminiscent of the VS 3218-6's. Very cool speaker!:D

NWCgrad
02-07-2017, 03:05 PM
Thanks guys.. Right now they sound pretty good, just tweaking the XO/DSP a bit more. I will post some measurements once I get them off my crappy basement computer I use for measuring.

The inspiration for the build was the 4345, the Cinema 5732, and the VS 3218-6.

NWCgrad
02-27-2017, 04:36 PM
Now that this build is mostly done, I am starting on a new center channel build.

I do not have the room for a third one of these monsters, so am going with a similar three way design in a smaller footprint. Design will use a passive XO between the HF and MF drivers, active for the bass.

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As I don't yet have an acoustically transparent screen, the speaker will have a rotatable HF/MF section. Inspired by the AM7315/95 and the VP7315 designs but with the VTX HF waveguide based on I found from this website site. The 2453H-SL driver sounds great on this waveguide, I did add a 1/2 in spacer between the waveguide and the driver due to phase plug differences outlined in the VTX waveguide thread.

Ed Zeppeli
02-27-2017, 07:23 PM
Great project mister!

Looking forward to those measurements when you get around to it. Using REW?


Warren

NWCgrad
02-28-2017, 05:05 AM
I am using REW, I need to put the files on a memory stick and transfer them to my main computer so I can post them. Sometimes I get lazy.

NWCgrad
02-28-2017, 09:46 AM
A few pictures of the Midhorn assembly and one REW graph of the Midhorn in action (taken at ~24 in, unsmoothed)
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Looks like I can go out to 2 kHz with the CMCD-82H on this particular horn. I have purchased the components (inductors, capacitors, resistors) to build a variety of crossovers, starting with slightly modified JBL Pro designs (dropped the contour networks and notch filters as I will be running active PEQ to dial in the design).
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I plan to build all these, test via REW and hopefully listening later on once I build the cabinets. Trying to dial in the XO first, as I know I will get distracted once the cabinet is built.

Schematic of the center channel speaker:
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I am thinking of running the two big speakers HF/MF on the dbx Venu360 (along with the pseudo 2-way center) and the LF for the mains using the Peavey unit. The Peavey unit is very limited on PEQ filters (5 per output) and I think I will be better served using the better dbx unit on all the higher frequencies and leaving the Peavey for the bass. I may try to modify the final MF/HF XO I develop for use with the mains, so I would have three pseudo 3-way speakers that could all be ran from the dbx unit.

The idea for using a limited function XO for the MH/HF came from some of the newer JBL Pro designs that have a simple dividing network and rely on DSP for optimizing performance (JBL 7-series reference monitors, VTX M Series, and the VP7315 all come to mind). In fact, I modified a figure from the VTX M Series product literature for my schematic.

NWCgrad
03-04-2017, 12:36 PM
Ran a lot more REW measurements today:

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NWCgrad
03-05-2017, 05:33 AM
In my measurement frenzy yesterday I measured the performance of my mains using a slightly modified PD6212/95 XO for the HF and MF drivers. This XO has a crossover point of 850 Hz per JBL, but we all know that point is the final XO that includes the natural roll off of the drivers. The XO measured very well, so I ordered all the parts to build two of them.

I will be running all three front speakers as "two-way" using the dbx processor. Saves me three amp channels, but more importantly it allows me to manage all three speakers from the single dbx processor. The Peavey just lacks the DSP power to be of much use (only 5 PEQ/output).

NWCgrad
05-06-2017, 10:28 AM
Been busy with other projects.

After dialing in the delay's to my mains with dbx I have no plans to run them passive.

Final center channel concept:
76838

Center will be 48" W x 28.25" H x 16.6" D, each JBL 2226H woofer is in its own enclosure (tuned to 40 Hz w/ a 6" Precision Sound port from Parts Express)

Planned LCR Setup:
76839

MF Unit: CMCD-82H on the PRX735 Midhorn
HF Unit: 2453H-SL on the STX/VTX waveguide

emilime75
05-06-2017, 02:39 PM
Just curious, why dual 2226s as opposed to a single. If only for symmetry, why not something like dual 2206s?

Seems like the box could be smaller, since a center doesn't require the LF extension.

NWCgrad
05-06-2017, 05:47 PM
Just curious, why dual 2226s as opposed to a single. If only for symmetry, why not something like dual 2206s?

Seems like the box could be smaller, since a center doesn't require the LF extension.

The dual 2226H's is purely for symmetry. I have three from my previous LCR setup, so I figured why not just go total overboard. I have a height restriction of 30" unless I want to go with an acoustically transparent screen. Which I actually do, but not until I move into a house with a better footprint for a theater.

If I have an issue with destructive interference running dual woofers, I will likely add a big inductor to one to eliminate the interference.

NWCgrad
07-01-2017, 08:54 PM
Made some progress:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2213761&stc=1&d=1498963070
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2213769&stc=1&d=1498963070
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2213777&stc=1&d=1498963070
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2213785&stc=1&d=1498963070
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2213793&stc=1&d=1498963070

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2213801&stc=1&d=1498963070


This is going to be a very large center channel speaker.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2213905&stc=1&d=1498965781[/

maxwedge
07-31-2017, 05:57 PM
Nice build! How do you like the sound of the mid horn?
I'm thinking of doing something like yours but not sure if I should do the horn or a direct radiating 10". I have a few 2251Js to use.:bouncy:

NWCgrad
08-01-2017, 05:03 PM
Thanks, I really like the sound. Excited to finish the center channel build. I listen to two channel audio about 75% of the time and the speakers are very dynamic and detailed.

I don't have experience with the 10" drivers outside of the horn. I imagine they would still be pretty good.

maxwedge
08-03-2017, 05:34 AM
Thanks for the info!

NWCgrad
08-13-2017, 04:12 PM
Latest update, getting close to the finish line.:applaud:

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NWCgrad
08-14-2017, 05:24 PM
New front triad:
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1audiohack
08-14-2017, 09:24 PM
Man if that doesn't rock I don't know what would.

Great work!

Barry.

NWCgrad
08-15-2017, 07:28 AM
Man if that doesn't rock I don't know what would.

Great work!

Barry.

Thanks Barry! I still need to do measurements to set the XO and DSP. Digital crossovers sure make speaker building fun.

The mains do rock, but I think they particularly excel at acoustic music. Sounds almost live with the dynamics and lack of any distortion.

I love your signature, a Biotechnology Program Manager at a large research instution (>$1B S&T budget) it hits the bullseye for our basic research programs.

srm51555
08-15-2017, 08:48 AM
Nice work!

NWCgrad
08-18-2017, 05:24 AM
Nice work!

Thanks.

I have done a basic setup of the XO. The Peavey VSX26 absolutely sucks compared to the DBX Venu360 loudspeaker management system. I need to start saving for a second DBX unit.

Basic XO:
LF: 40Hz, BW-18 - 300 hz LR-24
Mid: 300 Hz, LR-24 - 900 Hz,
HF: 900 Hz, LR-24 - 20 kHz, Flat

maxwedge
08-19-2017, 06:36 AM
Lookin' good!

I have 3 of those Venu 360s and are a huge step up from the 260s that I was using. Sweet units!