JBL 2360 Compression Driver?

[oks81]

Hello! :)

I have JBL 2360 with 2446 compression driver, playing together with 2x2226.
My question is; has any of you any recommendations on other compression driver?
Maybe Altec/GPA 288?

TAD is to expensive...

Best
oks

[gibber]

Hello! :)

I have JBL 2360 with 2446 compression driver, playing together with 2x2226.
My question is; has any of you any recommendations on other compression driver?
Maybe Altec/GPA 288?

TAD is to expensive...

Best
oks


Had 6 of those horns in parallel in several locations when on assignment until 10 yrs ago.
- 2440 with Radian 8 Ohm fram (later re-magged and with a 2441 fram)
- 4001 (later 4002)
- 4590P (later 4592 with ML LNC2 active X/O)

Tell you what: you need the TAD, sorry. Preferably the 4002. In most instances, this is the inferior driver to the 4001, but on this horn, the main 4002 drawback does not materialize all that much. It is the subdued "chest" in singers (as in males and females) that the 4002 shows on many horns. The 2360 is solid/large enough to allow the advantage of the 4002 (better treble) to outweigh the leaner singing voices. Not that i am a TAD (or even generally a Be fan), but on that horn highly recommended.

The GPA 288H could work, too. Again, typically inferior to the "G" version due to the exact same drawback/advantage mix as in the TADs, but here maybe OK to use the tangerine 'plug. Adaptors readily available, if you try it, please report back !

Charah,
Ralph

74400

[oks81]

Thanks for reply Ralph! :)

So, rob a bank and get TADs..... ;)

I have adapters on its way in mail for mounting GPA on 2360.
The 288 is interesting, and not so expensive, so maybe a way to go...? Alnico is tempting...?

In the mather of sound I prefer Smooth over Crisp


How about the two other GPA drivers, 390 and 399?

I have no experience so every input is welcome!

Wath is a tangerine plug?

Best oks

[dezmond]

I put the 2450sl diaphragms on my 2446,s mounted on the 2360's . Smoother sounding and less fatiguing on the ears.

[gibber]

I put the 2450sl diaphragms on my 2446,s mounted on the 2360's . Smoother sounding and less fatiguing on the ears.

Sure, definitely true and in fact a price-friendly alternative now that these large format 1st Gen neo drivers are so cheap. I have such frams in 2450SL and 2451H/J motors, but problem on 2360 is that the 2450SL is not 2" but only 1.5 -- means it's likely that for a 2360 use you need to get 4 divers and swap the aquaplas frams into 2445/46H/J or 2450H/J motors from the 2450SL.

Never tried 390/399. Tangerine is the name of the Altec radial phase plug (see web or Henricksen papers or this site for details)

[ivica]

Hello! :)

I have JBL 2360 with 2446 compression driver, playing together with 2x2226.
My question is; has any of you any recommendations on other compression driver?
Maybe Altec/GPA 288?

TAD is to expensive...

Best
oks

Hi oks81,

If using UHF driver for over 10lHz, then 2450sl, or Be diphragm would be possibe solution, but without UHF driver , I would suggest 2441 Aluminum diphragm, or even 2445 Ti (no ribs) diaphragm.
Regards
Ivica

[audiomagnate]

74400

:confused: Could you explain this picture?

[oks81]

Thanks guys! :)

Seems like nobody have tested Altec in 2360 so I will probably be on my own.

Diaphragm:
Googlegoogle... :)

Know that Radian have the alu.
Truextent have the be, but to expensive.

I have no tweeter.

With 2446 and standard titan I have the well known resonant 12kHz peak.


So lets see:
2450SL = D8R2450SL, titanium with aquaplas, sounds smooth. Reading this diaphragm sounds good.
But no good over 10kHz....

2441 = D16R2441, alu
2445 = D16R2445, titan, no ribs.

lots of number to remember :blink:

[gibber]

:confused: Could you explain this picture?


Well, the 2360s are a bit long for yer avg audio nirvana, so the aircon install guys with those heavy-duty drills for doing 3 or 5 inch holes through 20cm concrete were happy to do a few more for me. Saved 45 cm of living room real-estate...

The neighbours were scared a bit about 15 pounds of BMS a 100 feet above them, but after inviting them for a cup of Longjing were convinced full metal 2360T throats were up to the task. Pictured is driver model 4590P with the passive crossover taken inside for protection from Shanghai's elements (and pollution). The other side just came straight out of the 10th floor wall -- no A/C "balcony" there.

[oks81]

Nice tweak gibber! Everything for good sound!! Like it!



Can u guys recommend seller for diaphragm?
ebay maybe?

[JeffW]

Sure, definitely true and in fact a price-friendly alternative now that these large format 1st Gen neo drivers are so cheap. I have such frams in 2450SL and 2451H/J motors, but problem on 2360 is that the 2450SL is not 2" but only 1.5 -- means it's likely that for a 2360 use you need to get 4 divers and swap the aquaplas frams into 2445/46H/J or 2450H/J motors from the 2450SL.

I think he meant just putting the coated 2450SL diaphragm into a 2" exit driver - the 2450 driver (and the 2446 he mentioned) are 2" exit drivers, and the 2450 is neo magnet. They will take the 2450SL diaphragms just fine. But the 2450SL driver is the 1.5" exit neo magnet "pancake" driver. I have 2450 & 2450SL drivers, as well as 2450SL diaphragms. You can purchase 2450SL diaphragms without buying the motor assembly.

[JeffW]

Nice tweak gibber! Everything for good sound!! Like it!



Can u guys recommend seller for diaphragm?
ebay maybe?

These came up recently, 16 ohm

http://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-d16r2451sl-diaphragm/

Here''s an 8 ohm

http://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-d8r2450sl-diaphragm/

[gibber]

I think he meant just putting the coated 2450SL diaphragm into a 2" exit driver - the 2450 driver (and the 2446 he mentioned) are 2" exit drivers, and the 2450 is neo magnet. They will take the 2450SL diaphragms just fine. But the 2450SL driver is the 1.5" exit neo magnet "pancake" driver. I have 2450 & 2450SL drivers, as well as 2450SL diaphragms. You can purchase 2450SL diaphragms without buying the motor assembly.


Hi Jeff, the first part was understood on my end.
However, i did not realize you can easily buy these individually without getting them as part of 2450SL drivers.
Wasn't aware they were used outside the DSL studio monitors, hence my feeling they'd be tricky to get.
Nice price, too !

Ralph

[JeffW]

OK, I figured it was just a simple misunderstanding, you seem pretty well versed on these things.

And some guys actually prefer the coated titanium to the more expensive Be diaphragms, especially for a little extra extension on the top - say a two way system.

And yes, that is a very good price. Not sure how the shipping will impact the price to EU, but it's been mentioned that JBL is cutting the price on at least some things, maybe a EU distributor can get a similar price break.

[gibber]

OK, I figured it was just a simple misunderstanding, you seem pretty well versed on these things.

And some guys actually prefer the coated titanium to the more expensive Be diaphragms, especially for a little extra extension on the top - say a two way system.

And yes, that is a very good price. Not sure how the shipping will impact the price to EU, but it's been mentioned that JBL is cutting the price on at least some things, maybe a EU distributor can get a similar price break.



Yes, i agree they are very nice. I prefer the 16 Ohm SL over the 8 Ohm version. In fact, i find 16 Ohm sounds better most of the time in any compression driver (even HT371-16 tweeters better than -8). Haven't compared 2450SL to Be as i am looking for a second 476Be for at least two years now.
==> Do you have have access to the 476 fram by any chance?

For the 2360 which have a mellow-ish treble tone, i would likely (have never tried it) prefer the TAD. Only guess, never tried. But given OKS has 2446 magnets already, and at the new low D16R2451SL price, a combination with the aquaplas fram seems very difficult to beat...

[oks81]

Thanks to all of you guys!!

Have now ordered D8R2450SL aquaplas :)
Understanding 99bucks is cheap!

Gibber was a little to late, else maybe would have tried 16ohm..?
Since I'm having active XO it would function.

Best
oks

[gibber]

Sorry for that, we don't get up early on Saturdays here in O'fest-Central
But you can try to write in to change your order, perhaps ?
I believe JeffW is at least affiliated to the seller he linked to
Ralph

[JeffW]

Sorry for that, we don't get up early on Saturdays here in O'fest-Central
But you can try to write in to change your order, perhaps ?
I believe JeffW is at least affiliated to the seller he linked to
Ralph

No, no affiliation. I didn'the even know of that particular link until it was posted here by others.

[oks81]

No need for sorry gibber! ;)
Think I'll go for the 8ohm first, else I need new L-Pad and protect cap.

Use L-Pad instead of minidsp for level down horn because of noise from cheap dsp

[gibber]

Sorry Jeff,

for conveying the wrong impression to OKS
Anyways, the price is fantastic for the 8 ohms even more so than for the sixteen

Ralph

[oks81]

Will take 8ohm and go from there.Maybe 16ohm sound in your way better because of amp/driver combo? :)

[gibber]

Will take 8ohm and go from there.Maybe 16ohm sound in your way better because of amp/driver combo? :)

No idea why, just an observation.
Let us know how it turns out on your 2360s. Talking of them, which version of the horn do you have?

There are four i know of (and perhaps some more i did never see) :
2360 (throat ends in fibreglass horn bell, hence visible from front)
2360A (1st ver) thick black cast throat with 2360A label in fibreglass horn bell
2360A (2nd ver) thinner but arguably a little more precise grey cast with 2360T sticker, 2360H sticker on fibreglass horn bell
2360B vertically-cut two-piece precision-molded plastic throat, two-piece vertically cut horn bell of same "auto-dashboard" plastic

Ralph

[oks81]

I'm not quite sure what version I have.
Here is a picture:

74411

[Odd]

Looks better this way

74412

[oks81]

Thnx Odd!! :)

Stupid phone pictures!

[Mr. Widget]

I'm not quite sure what version I have.
Here is a picture:
That 85" TV sure is dwarfed by the speakers. ;)


Widget

[oks81]

Hehe!

Almost like a stamp ;)

It's an old 42" plasma LG :)

[oks81]

Just got home.
Two more pics for gibber :)

74414

74415

[gibber]

I'm not quite sure what version I have.
Here is a picture
(pic removed by gibber)

Hey OKS, that's a 2360A, if it says 2360T on the metal throat, then it's 2360A 2nd ver.
But the rounded appearance of the throats and dark colour lets me think it likely is 2360A 1st version.

Doesn't matter; both sound the same and both can have issues at the transition from metal throat to fiberglass horn bell.
These issues can sometimes be ameliorated by carefully pushing the bell into place before fastening the screws.

Here's a pic of the original 2360 courtesy of buddy Alex who has this "vintage" pair (while Alex could indicate a female the legs are not his):
74416
source: ak-tubes.de



Looks better this way
(pic removed by gibber)


Yes it does, but it mostly sounds better the way OKS posted, see my earlier picture with driver through the wall.

Having the slot horizontal, as in Don Keele did in his earlier (otherwise not very dissimilar HR9040 horn) sounds better if you are mostly at same height (i.e. seated) and especially if others at same height are sitting along the horizontal radiation pattern.

Not a big difference, but in the same league as the 8 vs 16 ohms earlier. Need to take care of floor reflection if no carpet.

Ralph

[oks81]

Ok! Thnx for info!
There is no number on throat si its probably 2360A.

Just have to ask :)

How about D16R2482 phenolic diaphragm?
Know it will need tweeter from 5kHz, but how does it sound?
Or better to go metal diaphragm?

[JeffW]

I think the phenolic diaphragms take a specific, compatible motor.

[Lee in Montreal]

The benefit of using a 2360 horn is that it becomes possible to run a simple two way system. Using a phenolic diaphragm means you'll need to run a tweeter, and therefore run a 3-way system. There are more convenient horns then if you want to run as a 3-way.

I think that your next step is finding the best diaphragm you can afford. I run my 2360 w/ a 2445 and original Ti diaphragm. After all, they were designed to be used together... ;-) But, if I could find a "cheap" set of TADs... ;-)

Lee

[gibber]

Very true, Jeff & Lee and what a coincidence you mention this OKS,
as i have bought four "no knowledge if they work but they all look OK" diaphragms from the local Craigslist equivalent.
Turns out three of the four are open and it's my Sunday activity (first snow outside today) to get them perhaps fixed.

74417


The 2482 fram is the best of the best in phenolic (find the advance JBL made on the 2480 fram in those data sheets). And they are the best independent of manufacturer (yes, i tried 290s), but as said by Lee -- why go for a good tweeter if you can do the job from your 2446 core with suitable fram ?

The dome and coil are same dia as in 244x/5x, but as Jeff indicated, the 248x motors have different centring pins & screw locations to hold the wider mounting ring that in turn resulted from the wider suspension used on the phenolic frams. By the way, Radian did a replacement in Alu for the Phenolic sizes (1282-16) for some time.
Ralph

[oks81]

Thanks guys! :)

Just had to ask about phenolic, I`m not going to buy!
For the time beiing I`m keeping it as an easy and simple two way system.
I`m not adicted to tweeter.
Maybe tweeter in the future.

So will go with the SL, and think it`s going to sound good! :)

Reading and understanding TAD is the ultimate driver for 2360, maybe some day if I get rich.... :)

[oks81]

The forum should have "likes" button, same as facebook and norwegian hifisentralen!
Gibber get three Likes for pictures! :)

[Lee in Montreal]

Anyone has graphs comparing response of a 2451SL diaphragm compared to a 2445 Ti or 2241 Al diaphragm ?

[oks81]

Have this one found from page in Norway: :)

74426

Normal Ti vs Aquaplas.

Maybe you can get the page tranlated through google?
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/diy-og-utvikling-ha-yttalere-forsterkere-etc/52289-en-liten-byggetra-d-om-et-par-jbl-2360-horn.html

I have read some about 2360 before I opened this thread, just wanted to know what u guys think! ;)


On the measure, the drivers are laying on table without horn, mic 30cm away.
Notice Aquaplas has about 1dB less efficiency, increasing to 2dB up to about 10kHz. Notice also resonance at 350Hz is lower on the aquaplas.
The aquaplas should be less resonant, so shows the measure.
Think this is an 2445 driver.

Hope grelv is ok with me sharing this info! :)

Best oks

[oks81]

Think this is in 2446.

744377443874439


The measurements are done by Materion, not quite sure where the correct link is, sorry for that.
https://materion.com/

[dezmond]

The 2450sl diaphragms sound very good using the 2446h cores. I am using the jbl dsc260a to biamp the 4675 and they handle 392hz and up just as good as the non coated diaphragms.

[oks81]

Thanks for info dezmond! :)
It will get interesting to test! :)

got email from reconingspeakers that store was out, but more aquas are on order from JBL.
Just have to wait 1-2weeks more + shipping.
But thats fine! Nice tweaking diaphragms at christmas! :)

What xover do you have on your 4675?

oks

[dezmond]

Thanks and hello . I got my settings for the jbl dsc260 processor here - https://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/cinedsgn.pdf .
Scroll to the bottom of the page and it shows the settings. Its 392hz for the 2360 horn and 482hz for the dual 2226h's. The only thing I changed was the last eq at 12.9khz they want 13.5 of gain I use gain of 6.
I used a jbl m552 before I got the dsc260 and they both sound good but I like the dsc better. Plus it has more options for settings and eq and makes it easy to add a uhf horn or tweeter.

[oks81]

Ok! Did not know it existed such manual! :)


I use miniDSP 2x4 and measure with UMIK1 and REW.

Xover is 550Hz 48dB/oct on both.

Also highpass the 2226 bass drivers @20Hz, so don`t use power from amp on tones that don`t hear anyway. :)


Also have som EQ tuned in to get nice curve.
On 2360 I have these numbers:

1650Hz -8dB 1Q
2450Hz -1,5dB 2Q (High Shelf)

On bass I have five EQ points, but it`s dependent on room, so no good info putting in here.

I choose not to try to extend treble/high frequencies as the driver is mostly resonant and it will probably not make so good sound.

This is ongoing progress, and just as far as I have got at this moment :)



Have tried lower xover, down to 350Hz, but do not sound to good. Missing punch in mid section than!
Thinking 550Hz is abolutely minimum for my ears. :)

[oks81]

What JBL Alnico 2" compression driver do exist?
Just find 2440 and 2482.

[JeffW]

2441

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2441.pdf

[oks81]

Thnx Jeff! :)

Thinking these JBL Alnicos are hard to get and expensive...
Maybe look the TAD way is better..?

Remagnatize is maybe an issue on old Alnicos..?

Just talking, not buying! ;)

oks

[JeffW]

I don't have any experience with the old Alnico drivers, but JBL made improvements in the drivers over the years - things like the coherent wave phase plugs come to mind - that probably influence the sound more than what the magnet is made of. I wouldn't get too hung up over "only the old drivers or TAD".

[oks81]

No, I wont get hung up :)
Its to expensive. Family needs food on table ;)

Will start with 2446 + aquaplas and take it from there!

[ivica]

Anyone has graphs comparing response of a 2451SL diaphragm compared to a 2445 Ti or 2441 Al diaphragm ?

Hi Lee,
I have shown here ,applying 2450-1.5 with 2332 horn an mentioned diphragm.
As I have remembered SL can be used up to 11kHz, while AL (JBL for D16R2441) can be used up to 20kHz, while D16R2445 something up to 15kHz.
Regards
Ivica

[dezmond]

I doubt that the 2441 goes higher then the 2450-51 sl .

[oks81]

Thinking changing and testing different diaphragms is most about minimizing resonances in higher frequenzies, not acually extend the the frequency range.
Beryllium is mentioned to be the best with lowest distortion/resonances, but also highest price.

But will also be a mather of taste I think. :)

20kHz? Dont think so! Maybe 15 is a reasonable number?

Don`t use rallycar for formula1.
Don`t use 2" compression driver in big horn for tweeter duty, tweeters are made for that.
Both will function, but not the best :)

Best
oks

[Mr. Widget]

No, I wont get hung up :)
Its to expensive. Family needs food on table ;)
Really?

Personally I think food is overrated. :D


Widget

[oks81]

:D

Choice 1:
Oks buys TADs -> Dearest finds frying pan -> big bump in oks poor head.... :bash:


Choice 2:
Keep 2446, try cheap aquaplas -> Dearest happy and oks still get family pizza on Saturdays :banana:

[oks81]

Trying to read on GPA page, just for fun :)

What 1.4" drivers will you recommend for 5-15kHz?
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/vintage_altec.html

Don`t know anything of these drivers....just read a little about the 288.
But then again B, C, D, G, K....... :blink:

[ivica]

I doubt that the 2441 goes higher then the 2450-51 sl .

Hi dezmond

I would You to do some measurements, just to insure yourself.
In order to remember You AL is lighter then Titanium, not to mention the weight of the "aquaplas"....

reagrds
ivica

[oks81]

Do this page help maybe?

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30412-Truextent-White-paper-for-Large-Format-Diaphragms&p=305351#post305351

[oks81]

D8R2450SL Aquas in position! :)
Smoother, nicer, bether than standard diaphragm! :)

Less treble then standard, but that is because standard diaphragm is quite resonant, specially around 12kHz.
Aquas also less sensitive then stndard.

But for hifi use, no question about it, aquas sounds bether!

I`m happy!

Thanks for all the help guys!! :)

[Lee in Montreal]

D8R2450SL Aquas in position! :)
Smoother, nicer, bether than standard diaphragm! :)

Less treble then standard, but that is because standard diaphragm is quite resonant, specially around 12kHz.
Aquas also less sensitive then stndard.

But for hifi use, no question about it, aquas sounds bether!

I`m happy!

Thanks for all the help guys!! :)

Interesting. Two weeks ago, I swapped the 2445 w/ original titanium diaphragms on my 2360s for 2440 w/ Radian diaphragms. The sound was quite different. Less harsh, softer, and had to raise the attenuators by a several dbs to match the previous output. Overall, it was a good move.

[oks81]

Wow! 2440`s with Alnico! Sweet! :)
Don`t know how aquas will be in those, but maybe in the 2445 you can try aquas?

I don`t have to much experience with this, only heard 2446 with standard and aquas.

[ivica]

Interesting. Two weeks ago, I swapped the 2445 w/ original titanium diaphragms on my 2360s for 2440 w/ Radian diaphragms. The sound was quite different. Less harsh, softer, and had to raise the attenuators by a several dbs to match the previous output. Overall, it was a good move.

Hi Lee,

As I have remembered, 2445 Ti (JBL orig) diaphragm can work almost up to 20kHz, with some ringing over 10kHz, but Radian can not reach not even 14kHz. I have been them testing with JBL2441 core,
(with 2311 horn) so Your results are expect-able for me. with Radian diaphragms I would expect to use 2405 as UHF driver....
with SL diaphragm, over 10~12Khz, almost nothing, but 2441-JBL ALuminum, different story (20kHz, no problem).

Regards
Ivica

[oks81]

I use miniDSP 2x4 on my system.

On the standard ti diaphragm I had the following setting:
1650Hz -8dB 1Q
2450Hz -1,5dB 2Q (High Shelf)

With aquas I use this:
1800Hz -7,5dB 0,5Q
8000Hz 1,5dB 1Q (High Shelf)


With this settings I have about the same treble, but the aquas not so resonant around 12kHz. Sounds cleaner.
It`s playing to about 14-15kHz before it drops.
20kHz..?? Ok, maybe, but think its most resonances..? maybe with Truextent be..?

To get it all clean in the top thinking treble is the best. It`s made for the high frequencies, something the 2446 and 2360 is not so much. :)

[oks81]

I use miniDSP 2x4 on my system.

On the standard ti diaphragm I had the following setting:
1650Hz -8dB 1Q
2450Hz -1,5dB 2Q (High Shelf)

With aquas I use this:
1800Hz -7,5dB 0,5Q
8000Hz 1,5dB 1Q (High Shelf)


With this settings I have about the same treble, but the aquas not so resonant around 12kHz. Sounds cleaner.
It`s playing to about 14-15kHz before it drops.
20kHz..?? Ok, maybe, but think its most resonances..? maybe with Truextent be..?

To get it all clean in the top thinking treble is the best. It`s made for the high frequencies, something the 2446 and 2360 is not so much. :)

Sorry! I ment tweeter! :)
Best oks, not in front row in english class.....

[emilime75]

I use miniDSP 2x4 on my system.



Searching Aquaplas info brought me here, but I have a question about the MiniDSP. I've used them for years before switching to high efficiency speakers, and the noise floor was huge once I placed my JBLs in the system. The MiniDSPs are now bypassed and the system is silent(noise wise).

Which MiniDSP are you using? I was using the 2x4 balanced, my pre and amps are all balanced in/out.

[Lee in Montreal]

I've used them for years before switching to high efficiency speakers, and the noise floor was huge once I placed my JBLs in the system.

You need probably to reduce the input gain and raise the output. This is a common occurence on wrongly set-up DSPs ;-)

[toddalin]

I had a pair with 2445 drivers in my living room. Sounded fantastic and the music was just sort of "there in the room." They were almost as tall as my L200 cabinets.

[oks81]

Hello! :)

I use miniDSP 2x4, simplest and cheapest there is.
Dead silent on 2360s but have some hum on the 2226s....don`t know what that is.

I use 68uF protection cap on the 2446 as both my poweramps has huge power on thump.

I also use 4channel preamp between miniDSP and the two poweramps.
The preamp (Norwegian brand Musical Innovation) has 50ohm output impedance, instead of the miniDSP that is 560ohm.
The preamp then function as buffer and volume control.
To use preamp between miniDSP and poweramps made better sound :)
When volume control is on zero, no hum in basses, thinking it is miniDSP in som way...
But no big issue.


By the way, the EQ settings i have mentioned is changed. Don`t use them. Try to find your own settings.
I now used target curves in REW to setup the system. Sounds more correct :)

Best
oks

[sebackman]

Hi all,

A couple of things.

There is absolutely no sonic difference between the 8ohm and the 16ohm diaphragms. The only thing is that the higher impedance reduces audible noise from the amp due to lower sensitivity at the same voltage (-3db). Potentially, if the amp is doing something weird due to the higher impedance, there can be a perceived difference but my 25 cents go to change of level as the ear is very sensitive and can detect as low differences as 0,1db.

The 8ohms and 16ohms can of course not use the same passive network and of you have an attenuator and/or protection cap those will also behave different if the impedance changes.

Regarding frequency response the SL’s is in fact better/flatter, rolls off less, that the Be dia’s above 10k. Hence you will do just fine with SL’s in a two way where you may need UHF with Be’s. Alternatively you can use an EQ/DSP to compensate, but remember that JBL themselves always used a UHF above the 476Be’s/476Mg’s (albeit I have never measured the 476Mg and only Truextent Be’s). I find the 2-way easier to set up than the 3-way.

Contrary to what was mentioned above there is not “Less treble then standard” in the SL’s and there is no significant difference in sensitivity given the same impedance. For sensitivity JBL may have compensated potential loss with a few more turns on the voice coil, resulting in little, if any, real life difference.

The maybe perceived lower treble output in the SL’s is only due to different sound, less ringing above 8k. When measured the SL’s are equally good or better dependant on horn/waveguide. I think I have most combinations up and running except Mg.

The limiting factor here seem to be the 2” exit driver which have much less HF output than the 1,5” drivers. That can easily be verified by using a 2450 which is really a 1,5” driver core with a detachable bolted snout that makes it a 2” driver. If you measure them with and without the snout the difference become visible.

I may be possible compensate some of it via EQ/DSP but there is a significant difference in design of the exit and the 2” horn mouth that has nothing to do with the diaphragms.

The Be’s does in fact roll off earlier than both Ti’s and SL’s but have less ringing and can be EQ’s harder without problem. However I don’t think any of the 2” drivers can go all the way regardless of diaphragm without serous EQ that in it selves can cause new issues. Around 15k seems to be the limit.

I’m not familiar with the 2360 horn except for what I have read here and in other places but it seem rather beamy above 10k and may be perceived down on treble outside a very narrow sweet spot.

You should be just fine with 2446 and SL’s plus some DSP or EQ magic. If not enough “sparkle” just add a 2405 above 10k.

Kind regards
//Rob

[Lee in Montreal]

I’m not familiar with the 2360 horn except for what I have read here and in other places but it seem rather beamy above 10k and may be perceived down on treble outside a very narrow sweet spot.

I never noticed my 2360s were any beamy. That's the advantage of CD horns.

[1audiohack]

I never noticed my 2360s were any beamy. That's the advantage of CD horns.

Agreed. If you can see even one side of the diffraction slot you are in the coverage zone.

Barry.

[sebackman]

From the JBL spec it looks like there is at least some directivity above 10k. But maybe that is so little that it in reality it does not really affect perceived treble level.

I have never used that horn so I stand corrected. :-)

Kind regards
//Rob
75480

[1audiohack]

The plots posted are of the 60 degree 2365. The 90 degree 2360 is much better.

It takes a lot of HF driver output to play reasonably flat on a 2360. If one is using it at domestic levels it's pretty easy to EQ an SL or 2441 but if you use it really loud, the old 2450 gets that done the best. Otherwise you EQ about 18dB of headroom out of the driver.

Barry.

[sebackman]

Sorry for the confusion. 2360 added.

Kind regards
//Rob

[oks81]

All interesting! :)

Keep on writing guys!!

About aquas sensitivity, I tested when just changed one, so standard Ti in left and aquas in right.
The aquas was quite a bit lower in sound level.

Don`t know how beaming sounds like, so can`t say on my 2360`s.

I use some EQ to get some level up to about 15kHz before drops down.

[sebackman]

Hi oks81

"About aquas sensitivity, I tested when just changed one, so standard Ti in left and aquas in right.
The aquas was quite a bit lower in sound level."

Check color coding on the diaphragm, red is 16ohms and green is 8 ohms. Were these factory SL dia's? -Or "dusted", ie plain or ribbed?

Do you have measuring capabilities with reasonable resolution?

If they were factory SL's with the same DC resistance you probably have a faulty core or diaphragm. I had some difference on two SL dia's and turned out to be 7 ohms on the one and the other was 8 ohms DC, ie 16ohms impedance. I have no idea why they were different but the difference was clearly audible. I got a new SL from SE i Florida and tested again and they were spot on.

Sorry to be a party pooper. They do sound different no doubt (less ringing in the SL) but they measure almost the same sensitivity.

There are many members here with more experince than me so maybe they can share their experience.

I'm located rather near you so we can have a chat over the phone if you like. Baldrik knows how to find me.

Kind regards
//Rob

[1audiohack]

Sorry for the confusion. 2360 added.

Kind regards
//Rob

Ha no worries.

Barry.

[oks81]

You aren NOT a party pooper! :)

Color is green (on wire connection for red wire) on both SL and TI.

My SL diaphragms are working great! And they do sound great!
But they beiing less sensitive is not so weird actually as the aquaplas coating do make the diaphragm heavier.
Had to increase a little gain compared to the TI`s.
But not much :)
No issue for me as it plays loud enough for my living room!

I bought my SL`s from reconingspeakers.
http://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-d8r2450sl-diaphragm/

Are you from Norway?

[1audiohack]

All interesting! :)
Don`t know how beaming sounds like, so can`t say on my 2360`s...

It may be hard to hear indoors with all the reflected energy most rooms have but as you walk off axis at some point you will hear the HF drop dramatically, like someone turned it off.

You may have to drag one outdoors to really hear it.

Barry.

[oks81]

Ok! thnx!

Don`t think I bother to bring outside... Yes, the HF drops at som point sideways of course.
But reading the 2360`s is good in normal living room as it spreads quite well.
I don`t know as it`s the only horns at all I have experienced.. :)

[oks81]

Well..
Maybe this is swearing in the church... :)

Anyway, now I`m playing with BMS 4590 coax drivers in the 2360`s
Crossover is 400 24dB LR.

The BMS fixes the tweeter quite well up to 20k.

Finding this to be a really good driver actually! :)

Best
oks

[Lee in Montreal]

Well..
Maybe this is swearing in the church... :)

Anyway, now I`m playing with BMS 4590 coax drivers in the 2360`s
Crossover is 400 24dB LR.

The BMS fixes the tweeter quite well up to 20k.

Finding this to be a really good driver actually! :)

Best
oks

That driver has always intrigued me. Maybe my next step. The only glitch is that driver is a two-way by itself. ;-)

[Hoerninger]

That driver has always intrigued me. Maybe my next step. The only glitch is that driver is a two-way by itself. ;-)
two-way but coax. :)
____________
Peter

[Lee in Montreal]

two-way but coax. :)
____________
Peter

Yeah. But that's another crossover point. ;-)

[Hoerninger]

Yeah. But that's another crossover point. ;-)
Of course, but thinking about horn systems, too little numbers of crossover points means more directivity (longish horns)

For example
two-way: 40 Hz - 900 Hz - 20 kHz (Factor 22,5)
three-way: 40 Hz - 320 Hz - 2,560 kHz - 20 kHz (Factor 8)
four-way: 40 Hz - 188 Hz - 884 Hz - 4,2 kHz - 20 kHz (Factor 4,7)

Klangfilm always used two-way systems devided at 500 Hz. But for the better systems they took two ore more speaker/horn combinations above 500 Hz. which I would like to avoid (personal choice).
____________
Peter

[oks81]

Compared to using a tweeter like 2404 is that with the BMS coax you get a point source.

But I never heard an 2446/2360/2404 combination so I can`t tell what sounds best.

Also maybe a matter of taste :)

[oks81]

Some facts :)

For crossover between mid and high I only use a 3,3uF cap.
Supid? Maybe...
But fact is that mid in BMS don`t play high enough and tweeter don`t play low enough to meet in a perfect way to form a good filter.
The standard filter that comes with the BMS4590P actually has an EQ function on the lowpass section to make the drivers sum better.

Measure of the BMS mid in 2360, crossover 400 24dB LR

76375


Measure of high with a 4,3uF cap, later changed to 3,3 for good protection of tweeter.

76376


Both together:

76377


The rest I fix in DSP.

[oks81]

The BMS 4590 can be used down to 300hz.

I have tested both 300 and 350 crossover, but it sounds bad in the 2360.
Crossover should be 400 or higher.

[oks81]

After EQ

76379

400 24dB LR Highpass.

Phase Measure i straight on crossover point @6khz.

[oks81]

Question about Radian 1245 diaphragm:

When I used both the standard ribbed Ti and aquaplas Ti diaphragms I found crossover at 600 to be the best.

If swapping to Radian 1245 alu diaphragm with mylar surround, does this diaphragm maybe sound better trying to crossover at 500, maybe as low as 400 compared to the TI?
Any of you guys maybe tried?

[johanwholst]

Question about Radian 1245 diaphragm:

When I used both the standard ribbed Ti and aquaplas Ti diaphragms I found crossover at 600 to be the best.

If swapping to Radian 1245 alu diaphragm with mylar surround, does this diaphragm maybe sound better trying to crossover at 500, maybe as low as 400 compared to the TI?
Any of you guys maybe tried?

I have said it before, and say it again:
your woofers will do a better job in those frequencies than a compression driver.
Oks, you will never escape my yapping about those resonant cabinets.

Stop thinking and start building!

[oks81]

I have said it before, and say it again:
your woofers will do a better job in those frequencies than a compression driver.
Oks, you will never escape my yapping about those resonant cabinets.

Stop thinking and start building!


God damn johan!! Following me here also for making feel bad about those cabinets ;)
Yes, I will build new! :)

Thanks for yapping! You are right about those old simple boxes!

Reason for asking about Radian alu is not for me, only me and "Hornlyd" talking about them.
I will stay with the BMS and probably ending up at 450-500 I think when new boxes arrive.

[oks81]

Hi!

Do maybe some of you guys have impedance curves for 2360?

[Lee in Montreal]

I run a 15" 2226 below my 2360 w/ 2441 and Radian diaphragm. I cross at 500Hz. Sometimes I move the point up to 600Hz. 24db L/R filtering. I also fitted another set I had, 2445w/ original diaphragm. And also cross at 500-600Hz. But when I switch to an 18" 2240, I may have to cross at 400-500 Hz as I don't think the 2240 can play nice and clean up to 500Hz.

[oks81]

You mean 2441 with Radian diaphragm in 2360?

After some testing I find that 2446 do absolutely best crossed at 600hz 24dB/LR with either standard ti or aquas.
The BMS 4590 can go lower.
Can be crossed 450hz 24dB/LR in 2360. But that is the absolutely lowest I will recommend running 2360.
At 400 the horn do not sound good.
The BMS can go down to 350.


Actually now I`m testing old 2410 with adapters in the 2360 :)
Crossed at 1khz.

[Lee in Montreal]

You mean 2441 with Radian diaphragm in 2360? Yup. My mistake.

[oks81]

No worries :)

On top you use 2405?

[Lee in Montreal]

No worries :)

On top you use 2405?

No. Just the 2360 for midrange and highs

[more10]

2360 w/ 2441 and Radian diaphragm. I cross at 500Hz.

Did you try to cross lower?

[oks81]

Did you try to cross lower?

I have tested the 2446 in 2360 all the way down to 350hz.
In hifi the driver is fine with 350 without diaphragm crash.
BUT it sounds bad!
The 2446 should be crossed at 600hz or higher is what I find out. :)

[oks81]

After testing BMS 4590 and JBL 2410 1" with adapter in the 2360, I ended up on using the 2446 aquaplas and 2405 tweeter.

This is how the final system looks like.

77698

2360, 2446 aquas, 2405 alnico tweeter, 3 x 2226 in open baffle.



Find the BMS driver to be the best if not using tweeter and can be crossed at 450hz after some testing.

The 2410 1" was also ok, crossed at 1khz and some EQ in the top range. The driver has some ringing under 1500hz, this makes an uncorrect, but cool sound (like growl).

Only crazy people put 2226 in open baffle :)
But it sounds good to me.
It`s crossed half way. Upper bass crossed at 600.
The two lower 2226`s crossed under dipole peak.

[oks81]

Maybe for inspiration.. :)

This is how this system is today.

79191

-JBL 2405 (can also use 2402, 2404 not tested)
-JBL 2360
-2327 adapter
-2410 1" compression driver with Radian 1225 16ohm diaphragm
-Midbass JBL 2220H 8ohm
-Lower basses JBL 2226H 8ohm


Open Baffle.
130cm high, 80cm wide.
Wings are 40cm.



Passive filter, crossing at about 1500 between 2220 and 2410.
79192



Passive filter if using 2446, crossing at about 750.
79193


Both filters can probably be made a little better, as always :D

[1audiohack]

2220’s and 2360’s are two of my favorite things.

Nicely done!

Barry.

[oks81]

Thanks! :)

This is just bringing an idea of making an JBL Open Baffle.
It works fine down to about 40hz placing the front baffle about 1m from front wall.

Yes the 2220`s and the 2360`s ar addictive :)

It can be done with three 2226s just removing the 10ohm/100w resistor with 2446 drivers.
Have not tried with the 2410 as the 2226 probably will not sound to good into 1500hz.

[oks81]

Update.

2446 playing with original ribbed Ti diaphragms D8R2450.
When using tweeter crossed 7k don`t find so much advantage using aquaplas.
It`s just a bit different.

Aquaplas adds weight to the diaphragm.

If not using tweeter aquas are best.


Also now use 2404 as tweeters.


Must change filter when changed diaphragm from aquas to Ti.
Freq.response is different.

80158

80159

[macsic]

Hello! :)

I have JBL 2360 with 2446 compression driver, playing together with 2x2226.
My question is; has any of you any recommendations on other compression driver?
Maybe Altec/GPA 288?

TAD is to expensive...

Best
oks

Hi,
(First I'm french speaking)
I got JBL 2440J and 2441J I have both and i use 2441 it on my 2360. For Hi-FI use the most important thing is the diaphragm you will put in these drivers, forget Ti. Use 2441 Aluminium diaphragm is a must.
With these drivers 2405 are great tweeters I love it.
I have Altec 288c also and they are great also but JBL 2441 are easier to find in good shape.

(Sorry, I Can't put photo)

[oks81]

Thanks for responding Macsic! :)

Yes, the 2441 i read is very good.
Alu diaphragm, beside beryllium I have not tested.
Beryllium is to expensive.
Alu, maybe some day I buy and try. :)

But I think the original ribbed TI sound quite good as long as use tweeter from 6-7k.
Over 7k the TI diaphragm sound really bad with a lot of resonances.

I have the 2405, and it`s really good!!
2404 is just a tiny bit better with the 2360, but it`s not by much!


I will not test the Altec 288 as it needs adapter.
Adapter makes the already long throat of 2360 even longer...not good.

But, yes, I read and people tell the 288 is really good driver!!
And it can be bought new from GPA! :)

[macsic]

Hi,
I did not test Berrylium Diaphragm but If I will want to update, the choice of Berrylium in 2441 is cheaper and better choice than buying a TAD after some reading.
Anyway go with 2441-40 with your 2360, it's a great match.
I also try JBL 2395 lens and I prefer the 2360

Titanium has a hard sound compared to aluminum, the silky sound of aluminum is really obvious. I have original diaphragm titanium and aluminum, I have listened to both in the same configuration with JBL 3105 crossover and believe me the Di aluminum are really better for Hi-Fi use. My Titanium 16ohms diaphragms are for sale
since ;-)

For 288c I prefer to use an Altec horns 1005B (very good) and keep the JBL2360 for my 2440 or 41 drivers :)

Bye,

[ivica]

Thanks for responding Macsic! :)

Yes, the 2441 i read is very good.
Alu diaphragm, beside beryllium I have not tested.
Beryllium is to expensive.
Alu, maybe some day I buy and try. :)

But I think the original ribbed TI sound quite good as long as use tweeter from 6-7k.
Over 7k the TI diaphragm sound really bad with a lot of resonances.

I have the 2405, and it`s really good!!
2404 is just a tiny bit better with the 2360, but it`s not by much!


I will not test the Altec 288 as it needs adapter.
Adapter makes the already long throat of 2360 even longer...not good.

But, yes, I read and people tell the 288 is really good driver!!
And it can be bought new from GPA! :)

Hi oks81,

I would not compare TAD 4" diaphragm driver with JBL 244x loaded with Be (Truext) diaphragm, may be with 476Be only would comparable, but if 2405 is applied, I think that JBL SL diaphragm would be acceptable solution too, as it is not 'ringing' over 10kHz.
Using JBL 4" AL diaphragm (2441) under 800Hz have to be done with more care, especially if not too steep HF network is applied. May be even 2445 Ti diaphragm is not so bad solution too.

regards
ivica




H

[oks81]

Sorry for late reply :)

Think I will keep as is with the ribbed Ti, it sounds nice as long as lowpass it at 7k.
Maybe try the 2441 dias one day... we will see.

TAD, or Truextent be is to expensive I think.
But, of course the best!


Yes, if using 2405 and want to cross at 8-10khz the aquaplas will be better than ribbed Ti as the Ti starts ringing above 7k.


Have read that 2445 TI dias is i a bit more "harsh" than ribbed Ti. But never heard.

oks

[jbl4ever]

I liked the 2482's on the 2360 horns at 400hz using the 24db/octave M553 crossover. The highs were done with the little 2407j ring radiator between 4.6 and 4.8 Khz

81078

[oks81]

Wow! Thats a nice setup! :)
Like the idea of using 2482 with phenolic!
About the same crossover point as I used with BMS4590, used 450hz in the end.

How does 2407 compare to the 2404?

[oks81]

Some changes :)

87053

[oks81]

Well, the obvious is new boxes with bassreflex.
Four boxes with one JBL 2226 in each. Volume is about 140 litres ++ and tuned to 28hz.
It does require some EQ to get the 2226`s to play bass with this low tuning and volume.

Saved som money and got a nice pair of TAD 4002 for the 2360`s.

87057


The 2405 tweeters will be mounted later.

I have also thrown away all the passive filters and have invested i a DSP, DEQX HDP-3.
Only passive parts left is safety caps on the TAD`s.

87058


For the bass speakers, Midgard Audio Oberon 4.1

87059

[Kreativlos]

:applaud::applaud::applaud:
We want -no we need- sound Impressions!:D

Best regards

[oks81]

The sound is quite good enough by my own standard. :)
The TAD 4002 is a bit bether than 2446, not to much, but some, in everything.
So was also the price...

[oks81]

87730

Changed for JBL 2220 in upper and 2227 i lower box.
Testing 2405 tweeters playing backwards.

Sounds good enough for playing Black Metal... :)

[Mr. Widget]

Sounds good enough for playing Black Metal... :)Great! How does less energetic music sound?

I thought I'd preserve your photo for posterity... linked photos have a habit of disappearing and I think your rig looks pretty cool, especially with that rear firing 2405. It'd be a shame to lose it.


Widget

[oks81]

Thanks Widget :)

If you think of heavy music with bad recordings it is as good as it gets.
But in general heavy music sound really good in big horn speakers as they have attack and dynamics.

The tweeter firing backwards was just an idea and a test. Easy to put them there, just using an 0,5uF cap as crossover for them.
Can`t really say to much, but maybe it give some ambience and helps the 2360`s beaming over 10k.

Edit: Tested at same song with tweeters on and off, there is a little difference, more air in the top.

[Mr. Widget]

I think your system looks badass and I bet it sounds pretty darned good.

I’m familiar with the 2220s and the 2360... both can kick butt. No experience with the 2227, but I am sure they help flush out the bottom.


Widget

[oks81]

Think the 2227 was mostly sold in the european market?
They do sound nice.

Both 2220 and 2227 being more like midbass drivers, they do need some EQ to play bass.
Their short stroke specs I do probably have quite a bit of 2.nd and 3rd. harmonic when turn up the volume.
2220 has an Xdamage of 16mm peak-peak but at this stroke a big part of the voicecoil is out of the gap.
Probably hard to damage since made this way, and with high distortion if driven this hard.

Find both drivers being bether than the 2226`s in the midrange.

Have tested crossing from 370hz and up to 1000hz.
Didn`t play loud with low crossing, beryllium quite expensive....
Do actually cross at 1000hz.
A bit loss of 2360`s big image but with a bit cleaner sound.

Som people love, som hate the 2360.
I like it :)
Big image but with some coloration and growl.
Tried to find the reason for it`s coloration by simulation in hornresp.
When put it in hornresp don`t get the shape, but it`s expantion at must see the horn as two segments.
Both the throat and mouth is exponential, the throat loading harder than the mouth.

The result showing quite a bit of variation in the acoustic impedances.

[oks81]

The Frequency response.

87738

The simulations ar not all correct, but maybe gives an image on what`s going on.

For the driver I just used som data on JBL 2440 found on diyaudio.

[Mr. Widget]

It doesn’t surprise me that you would like a higher crossover frequency. I’d probably go with 800Hz. I think I would want a proper bass driver in the mix. Perhaps even a VLF capable driver.

How loud do you play back music measured dBC at your listening position when you really crank it up?


Widget

[oks81]

Could probably go a little lower with the crossover yes. :)

I have not measured how loud....
Loud enough :)

For the bass yes could go with drivers with higher mms.
As I say, it`s not that big this system, it`s only two 15" midbasses.
So probably som guys would prefer something more in the bass section.

I have in my room ok level to about 25hz.

The boxes size are built for that they will fit these basses mentioned in this thread:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?41838-New-versions-of-old-classics/page3

[oks81]

One of the 2405 got broken :(
So bought a pair of JMLC 1400 and Celestion CDX1-1430 as backward ambient tweeters.

Also have done som work with DEQX and got a nice crossover at 500hz between woofers and 2360.

88135

[oks81]

Reconed a pair of E140.
Used black gaskets and black dustcap.
Playing with them now :)

88900

88901

88902

[RMC]

Nice work!

Do you still consider them as "E140" without alu dustcap, or what else?

[oks81]

Thank`s :)

The alu dustcap maybe has some kind of ringing very high in frequency?
I use the bass up to 600hz, so don`t think there is any difference with the paper black dustcap.

E140 is probably some of the bether drivers of the old JBL generation to use in home audio.
When got the baskets I looked at all the drivers that can be reconed into same SFG basket.
2225, 2234, 2235 and E130 cone kit will fit.

The 2225 has a bit low Vas for what I wanted. It also has an alu voicecoil former that lowers Qms.
The 2234 also has alu VC former. The foam surround probably bether these days maybe, but I prefer cloth surround.
E130 is extreme, but the equal hight voicecoil/gap will probably give high distortion very fast when used in bassreflex.
The E140 has kapton VC former that give it Qms=5. It has what I will call "ok" Xmax with 3mm.

Smaller the voicecoil, bether the sound, but shorter the stroke :)

88907

88908

[RMC]

How does LF sound? Satisfied with the "hybrid" E140 results?

I prefer cloth surround also for their very long life, and today cloth can provide even larger excursions than foam did in the past. Less foam drivers in the JBL Pro lineup in recent years, and i won't complain about this.

Alu dustcap extends driver response higher but you don't need it in your LF application, so not a problem.

Home audio usage of E140 is unconventional for an MI driver but as they say what works, works, since you use only the driver's bottom part.

Some E140 T/S (Fs, Qts and Vas for example) are comparable to those of the 2205H i have, but you have a stronger motor.

Low Qts drivers like E140, 2205, 2220, etc. have a reputation of having nice transient response, and i agree with that, the main reason i kept the 2205 so long is simply i like its sound, its a fast driver.

I assume it is the same for your E140 and 2220 combo. As i recall, it may be the first time i see the E140 used as bottom end to a 2220. Its a different application than mainstream, and may explains my curiosity. You sort of open a new door with this idea.

Nice audio setup you have, and like your Avatar picture, its fun. Regards,

Richard

[oks81]

Glad you like the setup! :)
I`m happy with it and play a lot of music!

Oh! So you have the 2205! Thats nice!
The specs are not far from mine E140.
I actually looked for 2205 recone kit to put in my E140 baskets, but it seems the only sell 2225 kit as replacement.

I`m quite happy with the LF from E140.
Of course as it is low Qts it needs EQ from DSP.
But it`s no problem as the low Qts comes from low Qes.
If having a passive crossed system, Qes can be raised by putting resistors in series.

Of course if playing loud, and used also for LF, these short stroke 15" drivers the 2nd, 3rd and THD will be high.
But 2nd and 3rd harmonic are ear friendly.

The real enemy that sucks life out of music is intermodulation distortion.
These high flux and short VC (low Le) are bether at intermodulation distortion than example JBL 2226.
2226 has lower flux, bigger coil and gets higher Le.
I can`t get 2226 to sparkle and shine in the midrange.

If wanting something more, even higher flux and shorting rings on these old drivers would be nice :)

[oks81]

Well..
Got som GPA 515 LF :)
So E140 on top and GPA 515 in the lower boxes.

88959

[RMC]

Nice. Which model 515 did you get? 515B, 515-8C, 515-8G, etc.

And you didn't have to retune the enclosures you're using going from E140 to 515?

[oks81]

Thanks :)

It is the GPA 515 LF 16ohm with ferrite magnet.
No, I have note retuned in any way, I just changed setting in DEQX DSP.

E140 is 8ohm, but putting 5ohm resistor in series with it increases Qes and Qts.

So it simulates lik this:

88970

Green is E140 with 5ohm resistor in series.
Yellow is GPA 515.
Orange is E140 without resistor, it should be 5-6dB higher in the simulation.

[RMC]

The way i understand it you down tune your LF enclosures and make up for the lost bass response (about -10db at 30hz) with DEQX DSP settings?

Since the 515 is 16 ohm and you added a series resistor to the 8 ohm E140 then i assume you might be driving both woofer pairs in parallel considering the new E140 impedance?

The 5 ohm series resistor with the E140 should also increase resistance and therefore reduce driver sensitivity. Have you had issues in matching the sensitivity of an LF pair vs the other LF pair, and then both LF pairs vs the horns, even though you're probably using active xo? The question comes to mind in view of the following.

The E140 has rated sensitivity of 100 db/1w/1m, measured 500-2500hz (rather high), 4.9% efficiency (5% = 99 db, per Eargle).

The Altec 515 LF such numbers are 99-102 db at 4' depending on box used (add 1.7 db for distance correction to 1 m, so 100.7-103.7 db corrected), measured 100-1000 hz, 6.7% efficiency (6.3% = 100 db, closest per Eargle).

Therefore not a direct sensitivity comparison specially in view of your usage (LF cabs) and the E140 higher range measurement than usual for a bass driver. I assume you might have set the levels by ear or a sound level meter?

[oks81]

Correct, the boxes are tuned to 28hz, so extra bass adjusted in DEQX.

Yes, the 5ohm resistor takes down the voltage sensitivity on the E140 (8ohm) so it`s more comparable to the 515 (16ohm).
Have only used Winisd simulation to find resistor value and calculated Re, Qes and Qts and to get about the same bass responce.

Both basses are connected to the same amp.
Wish to have all four bass of same brand, but I don`t so use what I have :)

There is probably still some difference between the E140 and 515 but I have not measured.
Your calculations seems correct!


Crossover between basses and horn is active in DEQX.
DEQX has dipswitches for gain adjustment, the horn is 8dB down by switches.
The rest is corrected by the automatic adjustment in DEQX.

88983

88984

Use setting 4 (second highest) for bass output and setting 1 (lowest) for the horn, if I remember correct.. :)
Both amplifiers have the same gain, about 27dB.

[RMC]

RE "Wish to have all four bass of same brand, but I don`t so use what I have"

Nothing wrong in using what you have, its still a nice system. I think i saw before in your cabs 2220 and 2227? Plus now E140 and 515. That's a good woofer assortment. Personnaly like the idea of trying different things, not limiting myself to one brand or model.

RE "There is probably still some difference between the E140 and 515 but I have not measured."

Each speaker has its own "personnality" so differences would be normal. One question keeps coming back in my mind and maybe you have or not mentioned this before.

Have you tried the E140 pair alone with the horns? Also the 515 pair alone with the horns? Similar sound? Which do you prefer and why? Plus when you drive both LF pairs together with the horns, does one LF pair seems to stand out a little more than the other?

RE "Correct, the boxes are tuned to 28hz, so extra bass adjusted in DEQX."

I have some interesting material about cab stacking and down tuning/EQ as you do. There's a little known side effect to this. I will post that in the near future in my own BGW thread, so it won't be highjacking your thread.

But first need to finalize a post due soon in my BGW thread about Scandinavian horn tweeters. Then box stacking etc. issues will follow... :)

[oks81]

Yes, one pair of each: 2220, 2227, E140 and GPA 515.

No I have not tried one pair alone.
Can`t really tell any big difference between them, except the 2220 is the most efficient.
The easiest to tell difference is looking at specs, measure close up and have control of bass curve.


I think using EQ is bether then using heavier woofers. Interesting if you now of any side effects.

[Eaulive]

The 2225 has a bit low Vas for what I wanted. It also has an alu voicecoil former that lowers Qms.

Well, no. The 2225 has the same material former as the E140 (Kapton?) I've reconed enough to know that, no offense.
I think the only difference between the E140 and the 2225 is a longer voice coil for the 2225 and an aluminum dustcap for the E-140.

[oks81]

Sorry, my mistake :)
I have just been lookin at Qms=2,5 on 2225 and thought it came from alu former.
Actually one of mine E140 was probably reconed with 2225, it had longer VC then E140, and it had capton former.

[oks81]

Testing JMLC 270 :)

https://scontent.fsdn1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/309576879_773001840449027_5753461346809863962_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=DL6tPEkYFhAAX_DAkso&_nc_ht=scontent.fsdn1-1.fna&oh=03_AVIhwipoB5opzVBerZZsdzdm_TUhN-36lx6B4xq0_7uBoA&oe=63629004

[RMC]

Hi oks,

And? No comment yet? Not even preliminary impressions about horn change?

Your artist friend has done another fun Avatar sketch for the new horn, he's pretty good. Though the one he made for 2360 is hard to beat...

Richard

[oks81]

:)

JMLC is smoother and nicer sounding. But they do beam.
I only use ambient tweeters, have not desided yet if put tweeters forward.

Listening position is 4m and there is 2,2m between the speakers so beaming is not so bad.

2360 is bether if listening closer and have a bit bigger sound stage.

I like both JMLC and 2360, they have both qualities that I like very much!

2360 I will keep, Im not selling them!

[Mr. Widget]

I like both JMLC and 2360, they have both qualities that I like very much!

2360 I will keep, Im not selling them!Nice!

Thanks for the mini review.


Widget