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oks81
11-03-2016, 01:48 PM
Hello! :)

I have JBL 2360 with 2446 compression driver, playing together with 2x2226.
My question is; has any of you any recommendations on other compression driver?
Maybe Altec/GPA 288?

TAD is to expensive...

Best
oks

gibber
11-03-2016, 02:23 PM
Hello! :)

I have JBL 2360 with 2446 compression driver, playing together with 2x2226.
My question is; has any of you any recommendations on other compression driver?
Maybe Altec/GPA 288?

TAD is to expensive...

Best
oks


Had 6 of those horns in parallel in several locations when on assignment until 10 yrs ago.
- 2440 with Radian 8 Ohm fram (later re-magged and with a 2441 fram)
- 4001 (later 4002)
- 4590P (later 4592 with ML LNC2 active X/O)

Tell you what: you need the TAD, sorry. Preferably the 4002. In most instances, this is the inferior driver to the 4001, but on this horn, the main 4002 drawback does not materialize all that much. It is the subdued "chest" in singers (as in males and females) that the 4002 shows on many horns. The 2360 is solid/large enough to allow the advantage of the 4002 (better treble) to outweigh the leaner singing voices. Not that i am a TAD (or even generally a Be fan), but on that horn highly recommended.

The GPA 288H could work, too. Again, typically inferior to the "G" version due to the exact same drawback/advantage mix as in the TADs, but here maybe OK to use the tangerine 'plug. Adaptors readily available, if you try it, please report back !

Charah,
Ralph

74400

oks81
11-04-2016, 06:27 AM
Thanks for reply Ralph! :)

So, rob a bank and get TADs..... ;)

I have adapters on its way in mail for mounting GPA on 2360.
The 288 is interesting, and not so expensive, so maybe a way to go...? Alnico is tempting...?

In the mather of sound I prefer Smooth over Crisp


How about the two other GPA drivers, 390 and 399?

I have no experience so every input is welcome!

Wath is a tangerine plug?

Best oks

dezmond
11-04-2016, 12:12 PM
I put the 2450sl diaphragms on my 2446,s mounted on the 2360's . Smoother sounding and less fatiguing on the ears.

gibber
11-04-2016, 01:20 PM
I put the 2450sl diaphragms on my 2446,s mounted on the 2360's . Smoother sounding and less fatiguing on the ears.

Sure, definitely true and in fact a price-friendly alternative now that these large format 1st Gen neo drivers are so cheap. I have such frams in 2450SL and 2451H/J motors, but problem on 2360 is that the 2450SL is not 2" but only 1.5 -- means it's likely that for a 2360 use you need to get 4 divers and swap the aquaplas frams into 2445/46H/J or 2450H/J motors from the 2450SL.

Never tried 390/399. Tangerine is the name of the Altec radial phase plug (see web or Henricksen papers or this site for details)

ivica
11-04-2016, 01:36 PM
Hello! :)

I have JBL 2360 with 2446 compression driver, playing together with 2x2226.
My question is; has any of you any recommendations on other compression driver?
Maybe Altec/GPA 288?

TAD is to expensive...

Best
oks

Hi oks81,

If using UHF driver for over 10lHz, then 2450sl, or Be diphragm would be possibe solution, but without UHF driver , I would suggest 2441 Aluminum diphragm, or even 2445 Ti (no ribs) diaphragm.
Regards
Ivica

audiomagnate
11-04-2016, 01:56 PM
74400

:confused: Could you explain this picture?

oks81
11-04-2016, 02:02 PM
Thanks guys! :)

Seems like nobody have tested Altec in 2360 so I will probably be on my own.

Diaphragm:
Googlegoogle... :)

Know that Radian have the alu.
Truextent have the be, but to expensive.

I have no tweeter.

With 2446 and standard titan I have the well known resonant 12kHz peak.


So lets see:
2450SL = D8R2450SL, titanium with aquaplas, sounds smooth. Reading this diaphragm sounds good.
But no good over 10kHz....

2441 = D16R2441, alu
2445 = D16R2445, titan, no ribs.

lots of number to remember :blink:

gibber
11-04-2016, 02:32 PM
:confused: Could you explain this picture?


Well, the 2360s are a bit long for yer avg audio nirvana, so the aircon install guys with those heavy-duty drills for doing 3 or 5 inch holes through 20cm concrete were happy to do a few more for me. Saved 45 cm of living room real-estate...

The neighbours were scared a bit about 15 pounds of BMS a 100 feet above them, but after inviting them for a cup of Longjing were convinced full metal 2360T throats were up to the task. Pictured is driver model 4590P with the passive crossover taken inside for protection from Shanghai's elements (and pollution). The other side just came straight out of the 10th floor wall -- no A/C "balcony" there.

oks81
11-04-2016, 02:41 PM
Nice tweak gibber! Everything for good sound!! Like it!



Can u guys recommend seller for diaphragm?
ebay maybe?

JeffW
11-04-2016, 03:23 PM
Sure, definitely true and in fact a price-friendly alternative now that these large format 1st Gen neo drivers are so cheap. I have such frams in 2450SL and 2451H/J motors, but problem on 2360 is that the 2450SL is not 2" but only 1.5 -- means it's likely that for a 2360 use you need to get 4 divers and swap the aquaplas frams into 2445/46H/J or 2450H/J motors from the 2450SL.

I think he meant just putting the coated 2450SL diaphragm into a 2" exit driver - the 2450 driver (and the 2446 he mentioned) are 2" exit drivers, and the 2450 is neo magnet. They will take the 2450SL diaphragms just fine. But the 2450SL driver is the 1.5" exit neo magnet "pancake" driver. I have 2450 & 2450SL drivers, as well as 2450SL diaphragms. You can purchase 2450SL diaphragms without buying the motor assembly.

JeffW
11-04-2016, 03:33 PM
Nice tweak gibber! Everything for good sound!! Like it!



Can u guys recommend seller for diaphragm?
ebay maybe?

These came up recently, 16 ohm

http://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-d16r2451sl-diaphragm/

Here''s an 8 ohm

http://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-d8r2450sl-diaphragm/

gibber
11-04-2016, 04:02 PM
I think he meant just putting the coated 2450SL diaphragm into a 2" exit driver - the 2450 driver (and the 2446 he mentioned) are 2" exit drivers, and the 2450 is neo magnet. They will take the 2450SL diaphragms just fine. But the 2450SL driver is the 1.5" exit neo magnet "pancake" driver. I have 2450 & 2450SL drivers, as well as 2450SL diaphragms. You can purchase 2450SL diaphragms without buying the motor assembly.


Hi Jeff, the first part was understood on my end.
However, i did not realize you can easily buy these individually without getting them as part of 2450SL drivers.
Wasn't aware they were used outside the DSL studio monitors, hence my feeling they'd be tricky to get.
Nice price, too !

Ralph

JeffW
11-04-2016, 06:51 PM
OK, I figured it was just a simple misunderstanding, you seem pretty well versed on these things.

And some guys actually prefer the coated titanium to the more expensive Be diaphragms, especially for a little extra extension on the top - say a two way system.

And yes, that is a very good price. Not sure how the shipping will impact the price to EU, but it's been mentioned that JBL is cutting the price on at least some things, maybe a EU distributor can get a similar price break.

gibber
11-05-2016, 02:33 AM
OK, I figured it was just a simple misunderstanding, you seem pretty well versed on these things.

And some guys actually prefer the coated titanium to the more expensive Be diaphragms, especially for a little extra extension on the top - say a two way system.

And yes, that is a very good price. Not sure how the shipping will impact the price to EU, but it's been mentioned that JBL is cutting the price on at least some things, maybe a EU distributor can get a similar price break.



Yes, i agree they are very nice. I prefer the 16 Ohm SL over the 8 Ohm version. In fact, i find 16 Ohm sounds better most of the time in any compression driver (even HT371-16 tweeters better than -8). Haven't compared 2450SL to Be as i am looking for a second 476Be for at least two years now.
==> Do you have have access to the 476 fram by any chance?

For the 2360 which have a mellow-ish treble tone, i would likely (have never tried it) prefer the TAD. Only guess, never tried. But given OKS has 2446 magnets already, and at the new low D16R2451SL price, a combination with the aquaplas fram seems very difficult to beat...

oks81
11-05-2016, 02:59 AM
Thanks to all of you guys!!

Have now ordered D8R2450SL aquaplas :)
Understanding 99bucks is cheap!

Gibber was a little to late, else maybe would have tried 16ohm..?
Since I'm having active XO it would function.

Best
oks

gibber
11-05-2016, 04:57 AM
Sorry for that, we don't get up early on Saturdays here in O'fest-Central
But you can try to write in to change your order, perhaps ?
I believe JeffW is at least affiliated to the seller he linked to
Ralph

JeffW
11-05-2016, 07:19 AM
Sorry for that, we don't get up early on Saturdays here in O'fest-Central
But you can try to write in to change your order, perhaps ?
I believe JeffW is at least affiliated to the seller he linked to
Ralph

No, no affiliation. I didn'the even know of that particular link until it was posted here by others.

oks81
11-05-2016, 07:41 AM
No need for sorry gibber! ;)
Think I'll go for the 8ohm first, else I need new L-Pad and protect cap.

Use L-Pad instead of minidsp for level down horn because of noise from cheap dsp

gibber
11-05-2016, 07:42 AM
Sorry Jeff,

for conveying the wrong impression to OKS
Anyways, the price is fantastic for the 8 ohms even more so than for the sixteen

Ralph

oks81
11-05-2016, 08:09 AM
Will take 8ohm and go from there.Maybe 16ohm sound in your way better because of amp/driver combo? :)

gibber
11-05-2016, 11:21 AM
Will take 8ohm and go from there.Maybe 16ohm sound in your way better because of amp/driver combo? :)

No idea why, just an observation.
Let us know how it turns out on your 2360s. Talking of them, which version of the horn do you have?

There are four i know of (and perhaps some more i did never see) :
2360 (throat ends in fibreglass horn bell, hence visible from front)
2360A (1st ver) thick black cast throat with 2360A label in fibreglass horn bell
2360A (2nd ver) thinner but arguably a little more precise grey cast with 2360T sticker, 2360H sticker on fibreglass horn bell
2360B vertically-cut two-piece precision-molded plastic throat, two-piece vertically cut horn bell of same "auto-dashboard" plastic

Ralph

oks81
11-06-2016, 01:12 AM
I'm not quite sure what version I have.
Here is a picture:

74411

Odd
11-06-2016, 01:58 AM
Looks better this way

74412

oks81
11-06-2016, 05:31 AM
Thnx Odd!! :)

Stupid phone pictures!

Mr. Widget
11-06-2016, 09:06 AM
I'm not quite sure what version I have.
Here is a picture:
That 85" TV sure is dwarfed by the speakers. ;)


Widget

oks81
11-06-2016, 09:17 AM
Hehe!

Almost like a stamp ;)

It's an old 42" plasma LG :)

oks81
11-06-2016, 10:25 AM
Just got home.
Two more pics for gibber :)

74414

74415

gibber
11-06-2016, 10:33 AM
I'm not quite sure what version I have.
Here is a picture
(pic removed by gibber)

Hey OKS, that's a 2360A, if it says 2360T on the metal throat, then it's 2360A 2nd ver.
But the rounded appearance of the throats and dark colour lets me think it likely is 2360A 1st version.

Doesn't matter; both sound the same and both can have issues at the transition from metal throat to fiberglass horn bell.
These issues can sometimes be ameliorated by carefully pushing the bell into place before fastening the screws.

Here's a pic of the original 2360 courtesy of buddy Alex who has this "vintage" pair (while Alex could indicate a female the legs are not his):
74416
source: ak-tubes.de



Looks better this way
(pic removed by gibber)


Yes it does, but it mostly sounds better the way OKS posted, see my earlier picture with driver through the wall.

Having the slot horizontal, as in Don Keele did in his earlier (otherwise not very dissimilar HR9040 horn) sounds better if you are mostly at same height (i.e. seated) and especially if others at same height are sitting along the horizontal radiation pattern.

Not a big difference, but in the same league as the 8 vs 16 ohms earlier. Need to take care of floor reflection if no carpet.

Ralph

oks81
11-06-2016, 11:29 AM
Ok! Thnx for info!
There is no number on throat si its probably 2360A.

Just have to ask :)

How about D16R2482 phenolic diaphragm?
Know it will need tweeter from 5kHz, but how does it sound?
Or better to go metal diaphragm?

JeffW
11-06-2016, 11:58 AM
I think the phenolic diaphragms take a specific, compatible motor.

Lee in Montreal
11-06-2016, 12:02 PM
The benefit of using a 2360 horn is that it becomes possible to run a simple two way system. Using a phenolic diaphragm means you'll need to run a tweeter, and therefore run a 3-way system. There are more convenient horns then if you want to run as a 3-way.

I think that your next step is finding the best diaphragm you can afford. I run my 2360 w/ a 2445 and original Ti diaphragm. After all, they were designed to be used together... ;-) But, if I could find a "cheap" set of TADs... ;-)

Lee

gibber
11-06-2016, 12:42 PM
Very true, Jeff & Lee and what a coincidence you mention this OKS,
as i have bought four "no knowledge if they work but they all look OK" diaphragms from the local Craigslist equivalent.
Turns out three of the four are open and it's my Sunday activity (first snow outside today) to get them perhaps fixed.

74417


The 2482 fram is the best of the best in phenolic (find the advance JBL made on the 2480 fram in those data sheets). And they are the best independent of manufacturer (yes, i tried 290s), but as said by Lee -- why go for a good tweeter if you can do the job from your 2446 core with suitable fram ?

The dome and coil are same dia as in 244x/5x, but as Jeff indicated, the 248x motors have different centring pins & screw locations to hold the wider mounting ring that in turn resulted from the wider suspension used on the phenolic frams. By the way, Radian did a replacement in Alu for the Phenolic sizes (1282-16) for some time.
Ralph

oks81
11-07-2016, 07:26 AM
Thanks guys! :)

Just had to ask about phenolic, I`m not going to buy!
For the time beiing I`m keeping it as an easy and simple two way system.
I`m not adicted to tweeter.
Maybe tweeter in the future.

So will go with the SL, and think it`s going to sound good! :)

Reading and understanding TAD is the ultimate driver for 2360, maybe some day if I get rich.... :)

oks81
11-07-2016, 08:20 AM
The forum should have "likes" button, same as facebook and norwegian hifisentralen!
Gibber get three Likes for pictures! :)

Lee in Montreal
11-07-2016, 08:37 AM
Anyone has graphs comparing response of a 2451SL diaphragm compared to a 2445 Ti or 2241 Al diaphragm ?

oks81
11-07-2016, 09:42 AM
Have this one found from page in Norway: :)

74426

Normal Ti vs Aquaplas.

Maybe you can get the page tranlated through google?
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/diy-og-utvikling-ha-yttalere-forsterkere-etc/52289-en-liten-byggetra-d-om-et-par-jbl-2360-horn.html

I have read some about 2360 before I opened this thread, just wanted to know what u guys think! ;)


On the measure, the drivers are laying on table without horn, mic 30cm away.
Notice Aquaplas has about 1dB less efficiency, increasing to 2dB up to about 10kHz. Notice also resonance at 350Hz is lower on the aquaplas.
The aquaplas should be less resonant, so shows the measure.
Think this is an 2445 driver.

Hope grelv is ok with me sharing this info! :)

Best oks

oks81
11-07-2016, 12:09 PM
Think this is in 2446.

744377443874439


The measurements are done by Materion, not quite sure where the correct link is, sorry for that.
https://materion.com/

dezmond
11-07-2016, 12:29 PM
The 2450sl diaphragms sound very good using the 2446h cores. I am using the jbl dsc260a to biamp the 4675 and they handle 392hz and up just as good as the non coated diaphragms.

oks81
11-07-2016, 12:50 PM
Thanks for info dezmond! :)
It will get interesting to test! :)

got email from reconingspeakers that store was out, but more aquas are on order from JBL.
Just have to wait 1-2weeks more + shipping.
But thats fine! Nice tweaking diaphragms at christmas! :)

What xover do you have on your 4675?

oks

dezmond
11-07-2016, 12:58 PM
Thanks and hello . I got my settings for the jbl dsc260 processor here - https://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/cinedsgn.pdf .
Scroll to the bottom of the page and it shows the settings. Its 392hz for the 2360 horn and 482hz for the dual 2226h's. The only thing I changed was the last eq at 12.9khz they want 13.5 of gain I use gain of 6.
I used a jbl m552 before I got the dsc260 and they both sound good but I like the dsc better. Plus it has more options for settings and eq and makes it easy to add a uhf horn or tweeter.

oks81
11-07-2016, 01:30 PM
Ok! Did not know it existed such manual! :)


I use miniDSP 2x4 and measure with UMIK1 and REW.

Xover is 550Hz 48dB/oct on both.

Also highpass the 2226 bass drivers @20Hz, so don`t use power from amp on tones that don`t hear anyway. :)


Also have som EQ tuned in to get nice curve.
On 2360 I have these numbers:

1650Hz -8dB 1Q
2450Hz -1,5dB 2Q (High Shelf)

On bass I have five EQ points, but it`s dependent on room, so no good info putting in here.

I choose not to try to extend treble/high frequencies as the driver is mostly resonant and it will probably not make so good sound.

This is ongoing progress, and just as far as I have got at this moment :)



Have tried lower xover, down to 350Hz, but do not sound to good. Missing punch in mid section than!
Thinking 550Hz is abolutely minimum for my ears. :)

oks81
11-08-2016, 09:53 AM
What JBL Alnico 2" compression driver do exist?
Just find 2440 and 2482.

JeffW
11-08-2016, 11:22 AM
2441

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2441.pdf

oks81
11-08-2016, 11:40 AM
Thnx Jeff! :)

Thinking these JBL Alnicos are hard to get and expensive...
Maybe look the TAD way is better..?

Remagnatize is maybe an issue on old Alnicos..?

Just talking, not buying! ;)

oks

JeffW
11-08-2016, 03:40 PM
I don't have any experience with the old Alnico drivers, but JBL made improvements in the drivers over the years - things like the coherent wave phase plugs come to mind - that probably influence the sound more than what the magnet is made of. I wouldn't get too hung up over "only the old drivers or TAD".

oks81
11-09-2016, 08:39 AM
No, I wont get hung up :)
Its to expensive. Family needs food on table ;)

Will start with 2446 + aquaplas and take it from there!

ivica
11-09-2016, 10:45 AM
Anyone has graphs comparing response of a 2451SL diaphragm compared to a 2445 Ti or 2441 Al diaphragm ?

Hi Lee,
I have shown here ,applying 2450-1.5 with 2332 horn an mentioned diphragm.
As I have remembered SL can be used up to 11kHz, while AL (JBL for D16R2441) can be used up to 20kHz, while D16R2445 something up to 15kHz.
Regards
Ivica

dezmond
11-09-2016, 12:00 PM
I doubt that the 2441 goes higher then the 2450-51 sl .

oks81
11-10-2016, 08:02 AM
Thinking changing and testing different diaphragms is most about minimizing resonances in higher frequenzies, not acually extend the the frequency range.
Beryllium is mentioned to be the best with lowest distortion/resonances, but also highest price.

But will also be a mather of taste I think. :)

20kHz? Dont think so! Maybe 15 is a reasonable number?

Don`t use rallycar for formula1.
Don`t use 2" compression driver in big horn for tweeter duty, tweeters are made for that.
Both will function, but not the best :)

Best
oks

Mr. Widget
11-10-2016, 11:46 AM
No, I wont get hung up :)
Its to expensive. Family needs food on table ;)
Really?

Personally I think food is overrated. :D


Widget

oks81
11-10-2016, 01:43 PM
:D

Choice 1:
Oks buys TADs -> Dearest finds frying pan -> big bump in oks poor head.... :bash:


Choice 2:
Keep 2446, try cheap aquaplas -> Dearest happy and oks still get family pizza on Saturdays :banana:

oks81
11-10-2016, 02:03 PM
Trying to read on GPA page, just for fun :)

What 1.4" drivers will you recommend for 5-15kHz?
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/vintage_altec.html

Don`t know anything of these drivers....just read a little about the 288.
But then again B, C, D, G, K....... :blink:

ivica
11-11-2016, 06:05 AM
I doubt that the 2441 goes higher then the 2450-51 sl .

Hi dezmond

I would You to do some measurements, just to insure yourself.
In order to remember You AL is lighter then Titanium, not to mention the weight of the "aquaplas"....

reagrds
ivica

oks81
11-11-2016, 10:21 AM
Do this page help maybe?

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30412-Truextent-White-paper-for-Large-Format-Diaphragms&p=305351#post305351

oks81
12-14-2016, 12:25 PM
D8R2450SL Aquas in position! :)
Smoother, nicer, bether than standard diaphragm! :)

Less treble then standard, but that is because standard diaphragm is quite resonant, specially around 12kHz.
Aquas also less sensitive then stndard.

But for hifi use, no question about it, aquas sounds bether!

I`m happy!

Thanks for all the help guys!! :)

Lee in Montreal
12-14-2016, 01:03 PM
D8R2450SL Aquas in position! :)
Smoother, nicer, bether than standard diaphragm! :)

Less treble then standard, but that is because standard diaphragm is quite resonant, specially around 12kHz.
Aquas also less sensitive then stndard.

But for hifi use, no question about it, aquas sounds bether!

I`m happy!

Thanks for all the help guys!! :)

Interesting. Two weeks ago, I swapped the 2445 w/ original titanium diaphragms on my 2360s for 2440 w/ Radian diaphragms. The sound was quite different. Less harsh, softer, and had to raise the attenuators by a several dbs to match the previous output. Overall, it was a good move.

oks81
12-14-2016, 01:55 PM
Wow! 2440`s with Alnico! Sweet! :)
Don`t know how aquas will be in those, but maybe in the 2445 you can try aquas?

I don`t have to much experience with this, only heard 2446 with standard and aquas.

ivica
12-15-2016, 11:06 AM
Interesting. Two weeks ago, I swapped the 2445 w/ original titanium diaphragms on my 2360s for 2440 w/ Radian diaphragms. The sound was quite different. Less harsh, softer, and had to raise the attenuators by a several dbs to match the previous output. Overall, it was a good move.

Hi Lee,

As I have remembered, 2445 Ti (JBL orig) diaphragm can work almost up to 20kHz, with some ringing over 10kHz, but Radian can not reach not even 14kHz. I have been them testing with JBL2441 core,
(with 2311 horn) so Your results are expect-able for me. with Radian diaphragms I would expect to use 2405 as UHF driver....
with SL diaphragm, over 10~12Khz, almost nothing, but 2441-JBL ALuminum, different story (20kHz, no problem).

Regards
Ivica

oks81
12-15-2016, 11:55 AM
I use miniDSP 2x4 on my system.

On the standard ti diaphragm I had the following setting:
1650Hz -8dB 1Q
2450Hz -1,5dB 2Q (High Shelf)

With aquas I use this:
1800Hz -7,5dB 0,5Q
8000Hz 1,5dB 1Q (High Shelf)


With this settings I have about the same treble, but the aquas not so resonant around 12kHz. Sounds cleaner.
It`s playing to about 14-15kHz before it drops.
20kHz..?? Ok, maybe, but think its most resonances..? maybe with Truextent be..?

To get it all clean in the top thinking treble is the best. It`s made for the high frequencies, something the 2446 and 2360 is not so much. :)

oks81
12-15-2016, 11:41 PM
I use miniDSP 2x4 on my system.

On the standard ti diaphragm I had the following setting:
1650Hz -8dB 1Q
2450Hz -1,5dB 2Q (High Shelf)

With aquas I use this:
1800Hz -7,5dB 0,5Q
8000Hz 1,5dB 1Q (High Shelf)


With this settings I have about the same treble, but the aquas not so resonant around 12kHz. Sounds cleaner.
It`s playing to about 14-15kHz before it drops.
20kHz..?? Ok, maybe, but think its most resonances..? maybe with Truextent be..?

To get it all clean in the top thinking treble is the best. It`s made for the high frequencies, something the 2446 and 2360 is not so much. :)

Sorry! I ment tweeter! :)
Best oks, not in front row in english class.....

emilime75
01-12-2017, 05:56 AM
I use miniDSP 2x4 on my system.



Searching Aquaplas info brought me here, but I have a question about the MiniDSP. I've used them for years before switching to high efficiency speakers, and the noise floor was huge once I placed my JBLs in the system. The MiniDSPs are now bypassed and the system is silent(noise wise).

Which MiniDSP are you using? I was using the 2x4 balanced, my pre and amps are all balanced in/out.

Lee in Montreal
01-12-2017, 06:15 AM
I've used them for years before switching to high efficiency speakers, and the noise floor was huge once I placed my JBLs in the system.

You need probably to reduce the input gain and raise the output. This is a common occurence on wrongly set-up DSPs ;-)

toddalin
01-12-2017, 10:54 AM
I had a pair with 2445 drivers in my living room. Sounded fantastic and the music was just sort of "there in the room." They were almost as tall as my L200 cabinets.

oks81
01-14-2017, 12:22 AM
Hello! :)

I use miniDSP 2x4, simplest and cheapest there is.
Dead silent on 2360s but have some hum on the 2226s....don`t know what that is.

I use 68uF protection cap on the 2446 as both my poweramps has huge power on thump.

I also use 4channel preamp between miniDSP and the two poweramps.
The preamp (Norwegian brand Musical Innovation) has 50ohm output impedance, instead of the miniDSP that is 560ohm.
The preamp then function as buffer and volume control.
To use preamp between miniDSP and poweramps made better sound :)
When volume control is on zero, no hum in basses, thinking it is miniDSP in som way...
But no big issue.


By the way, the EQ settings i have mentioned is changed. Don`t use them. Try to find your own settings.
I now used target curves in REW to setup the system. Sounds more correct :)

Best
oks

sebackman
01-16-2017, 12:47 PM
Hi all,

A couple of things.

There is absolutely no sonic difference between the 8ohm and the 16ohm diaphragms. The only thing is that the higher impedance reduces audible noise from the amp due to lower sensitivity at the same voltage (-3db). Potentially, if the amp is doing something weird due to the higher impedance, there can be a perceived difference but my 25 cents go to change of level as the ear is very sensitive and can detect as low differences as 0,1db.

The 8ohms and 16ohms can of course not use the same passive network and of you have an attenuator and/or protection cap those will also behave different if the impedance changes.

Regarding frequency response the SLs is in fact better/flatter, rolls off less, that the Be dias above 10k. Hence you will do just fine with SLs in a two way where you may need UHF with Bes. Alternatively you can use an EQ/DSP to compensate, but remember that JBL themselves always used a UHF above the 476Bes/476Mgs (albeit I have never measured the 476Mg and only Truextent Bes). I find the 2-way easier to set up than the 3-way.

Contrary to what was mentioned above there is not Less treble then standard in the SLs and there is no significant difference in sensitivity given the same impedance. For sensitivity JBL may have compensated potential loss with a few more turns on the voice coil, resulting in little, if any, real life difference.

The maybe perceived lower treble output in the SLs is only due to different sound, less ringing above 8k. When measured the SLs are equally good or better dependant on horn/waveguide. I think I have most combinations up and running except Mg.

The limiting factor here seem to be the 2 exit driver which have much less HF output than the 1,5 drivers. That can easily be verified by using a 2450 which is really a 1,5 driver core with a detachable bolted snout that makes it a 2 driver. If you measure them with and without the snout the difference become visible.

I may be possible compensate some of it via EQ/DSP but there is a significant difference in design of the exit and the 2 horn mouth that has nothing to do with the diaphragms.

The Bes does in fact roll off earlier than both Tis and SLs but have less ringing and can be EQs harder without problem. However I dont think any of the 2 drivers can go all the way regardless of diaphragm without serous EQ that in it selves can cause new issues. Around 15k seems to be the limit.

Im not familiar with the 2360 horn except for what I have read here and in other places but it seem rather beamy above 10k and may be perceived down on treble outside a very narrow sweet spot.

You should be just fine with 2446 and SLs plus some DSP or EQ magic. If not enough sparkle just add a 2405 above 10k.

Kind regards
//Rob

Lee in Montreal
01-17-2017, 08:27 PM
I’m not familiar with the 2360 horn except for what I have read here and in other places but it seem rather beamy above 10k and may be perceived down on treble outside a very narrow sweet spot.

I never noticed my 2360s were any beamy. That's the advantage of CD horns.

1audiohack
01-17-2017, 09:06 PM
I never noticed my 2360s were any beamy. That's the advantage of CD horns.

Agreed. If you can see even one side of the diffraction slot you are in the coverage zone.

Barry.

sebackman
01-18-2017, 03:49 AM
From the JBL spec it looks like there is at least some directivity above 10k. But maybe that is so little that it in reality it does not really affect perceived treble level.

I have never used that horn so I stand corrected. :-)

Kind regards
//Rob
75480

1audiohack
01-18-2017, 06:46 AM
The plots posted are of the 60 degree 2365. The 90 degree 2360 is much better.

It takes a lot of HF driver output to play reasonably flat on a 2360. If one is using it at domestic levels it's pretty easy to EQ an SL or 2441 but if you use it really loud, the old 2450 gets that done the best. Otherwise you EQ about 18dB of headroom out of the driver.

Barry.

sebackman
01-18-2017, 08:12 AM
Sorry for the confusion. 2360 added.

Kind regards
//Rob

oks81
01-18-2017, 10:15 AM
All interesting! :)

Keep on writing guys!!

About aquas sensitivity, I tested when just changed one, so standard Ti in left and aquas in right.
The aquas was quite a bit lower in sound level.

Don`t know how beaming sounds like, so can`t say on my 2360`s.

I use some EQ to get some level up to about 15kHz before drops down.

sebackman
01-18-2017, 10:54 AM
Hi oks81

"About aquas sensitivity, I tested when just changed one, so standard Ti in left and aquas in right.
The aquas was quite a bit lower in sound level."

Check color coding on the diaphragm, red is 16ohms and green is 8 ohms. Were these factory SL dia's? -Or "dusted", ie plain or ribbed?

Do you have measuring capabilities with reasonable resolution?

If they were factory SL's with the same DC resistance you probably have a faulty core or diaphragm. I had some difference on two SL dia's and turned out to be 7 ohms on the one and the other was 8 ohms DC, ie 16ohms impedance. I have no idea why they were different but the difference was clearly audible. I got a new SL from SE i Florida and tested again and they were spot on.

Sorry to be a party pooper. They do sound different no doubt (less ringing in the SL) but they measure almost the same sensitivity.

There are many members here with more experince than me so maybe they can share their experience.

I'm located rather near you so we can have a chat over the phone if you like. Baldrik knows how to find me.

Kind regards
//Rob

1audiohack
01-18-2017, 11:12 AM
Sorry for the confusion. 2360 added.

Kind regards
//Rob

Ha no worries.

Barry.

oks81
01-18-2017, 11:16 AM
You aren NOT a party pooper! :)

Color is green (on wire connection for red wire) on both SL and TI.

My SL diaphragms are working great! And they do sound great!
But they beiing less sensitive is not so weird actually as the aquaplas coating do make the diaphragm heavier.
Had to increase a little gain compared to the TI`s.
But not much :)
No issue for me as it plays loud enough for my living room!

I bought my SL`s from reconingspeakers.
http://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-d8r2450sl-diaphragm/

Are you from Norway?

1audiohack
01-18-2017, 11:53 AM
All interesting! :)
Don`t know how beaming sounds like, so can`t say on my 2360`s...

It may be hard to hear indoors with all the reflected energy most rooms have but as you walk off axis at some point you will hear the HF drop dramatically, like someone turned it off.

You may have to drag one outdoors to really hear it.

Barry.

oks81
01-18-2017, 12:11 PM
Ok! thnx!

Don`t think I bother to bring outside... Yes, the HF drops at som point sideways of course.
But reading the 2360`s is good in normal living room as it spreads quite well.
I don`t know as it`s the only horns at all I have experienced.. :)

oks81
03-16-2017, 10:09 AM
Well..
Maybe this is swearing in the church... :)

Anyway, now I`m playing with BMS 4590 coax drivers in the 2360`s
Crossover is 400 24dB LR.

The BMS fixes the tweeter quite well up to 20k.

Finding this to be a really good driver actually! :)

Best
oks

Lee in Montreal
03-16-2017, 11:19 AM
Well..
Maybe this is swearing in the church... :)

Anyway, now I`m playing with BMS 4590 coax drivers in the 2360`s
Crossover is 400 24dB LR.

The BMS fixes the tweeter quite well up to 20k.

Finding this to be a really good driver actually! :)

Best
oks

That driver has always intrigued me. Maybe my next step. The only glitch is that driver is a two-way by itself. ;-)

Hoerninger
03-16-2017, 11:31 AM
That driver has always intrigued me. Maybe my next step. The only glitch is that driver is a two-way by itself. ;-)
two-way but coax. :)
____________
Peter

Lee in Montreal
03-16-2017, 11:50 AM
two-way but coax. :)
____________
Peter

Yeah. But that's another crossover point. ;-)

Hoerninger
03-16-2017, 01:41 PM
Yeah. But that's another crossover point. ;-)
Of course, but thinking about horn systems, too little numbers of crossover points means more directivity (longish horns)

For example
two-way: 40 Hz - 900 Hz - 20 kHz (Factor 22,5)
three-way: 40 Hz - 320 Hz - 2,560 kHz - 20 kHz (Factor 8)
four-way: 40 Hz - 188 Hz - 884 Hz - 4,2 kHz - 20 kHz (Factor 4,7)

Klangfilm always used two-way systems devided at 500 Hz. But for the better systems they took two ore more speaker/horn combinations above 500 Hz. which I would like to avoid (personal choice).
____________
Peter

oks81
03-17-2017, 01:38 AM
Compared to using a tweeter like 2404 is that with the BMS coax you get a point source.

But I never heard an 2446/2360/2404 combination so I can`t tell what sounds best.

Also maybe a matter of taste :)

oks81
03-17-2017, 01:55 AM
Some facts :)

For crossover between mid and high I only use a 3,3uF cap.
Supid? Maybe...
But fact is that mid in BMS don`t play high enough and tweeter don`t play low enough to meet in a perfect way to form a good filter.
The standard filter that comes with the BMS4590P actually has an EQ function on the lowpass section to make the drivers sum better.

Measure of the BMS mid in 2360, crossover 400 24dB LR

76375


Measure of high with a 4,3uF cap, later changed to 3,3 for good protection of tweeter.

76376


Both together:

76377


The rest I fix in DSP.

oks81
03-17-2017, 01:57 AM
The BMS 4590 can be used down to 300hz.

I have tested both 300 and 350 crossover, but it sounds bad in the 2360.
Crossover should be 400 or higher.

oks81
03-17-2017, 06:41 AM
After EQ

76379

400 24dB LR Highpass.

Phase Measure i straight on crossover point @6khz.

oks81
03-19-2017, 09:29 AM
Question about Radian 1245 diaphragm:

When I used both the standard ribbed Ti and aquaplas Ti diaphragms I found crossover at 600 to be the best.

If swapping to Radian 1245 alu diaphragm with mylar surround, does this diaphragm maybe sound better trying to crossover at 500, maybe as low as 400 compared to the TI?
Any of you guys maybe tried?

johanwholst
03-19-2017, 11:27 AM
Question about Radian 1245 diaphragm:

When I used both the standard ribbed Ti and aquaplas Ti diaphragms I found crossover at 600 to be the best.

If swapping to Radian 1245 alu diaphragm with mylar surround, does this diaphragm maybe sound better trying to crossover at 500, maybe as low as 400 compared to the TI?
Any of you guys maybe tried?

I have said it before, and say it again:
your woofers will do a better job in those frequencies than a compression driver.
Oks, you will never escape my yapping about those resonant cabinets.

Stop thinking and start building!

oks81
03-19-2017, 12:43 PM
I have said it before, and say it again:
your woofers will do a better job in those frequencies than a compression driver.
Oks, you will never escape my yapping about those resonant cabinets.

Stop thinking and start building!


God damn johan!! Following me here also for making feel bad about those cabinets ;)
Yes, I will build new! :)

Thanks for yapping! You are right about those old simple boxes!

Reason for asking about Radian alu is not for me, only me and "Hornlyd" talking about them.
I will stay with the BMS and probably ending up at 450-500 I think when new boxes arrive.

oks81
07-17-2017, 05:15 AM
Hi!

Do maybe some of you guys have impedance curves for 2360?

Lee in Montreal
07-17-2017, 10:44 AM
I run a 15" 2226 below my 2360 w/ 2441 and Radian diaphragm. I cross at 500Hz. Sometimes I move the point up to 600Hz. 24db L/R filtering. I also fitted another set I had, 2445w/ original diaphragm. And also cross at 500-600Hz. But when I switch to an 18" 2240, I may have to cross at 400-500 Hz as I don't think the 2240 can play nice and clean up to 500Hz.

oks81
07-17-2017, 11:49 AM
You mean 2441 with Radian diaphragm in 2360?

After some testing I find that 2446 do absolutely best crossed at 600hz 24dB/LR with either standard ti or aquas.
The BMS 4590 can go lower.
Can be crossed 450hz 24dB/LR in 2360. But that is the absolutely lowest I will recommend running 2360.
At 400 the horn do not sound good.
The BMS can go down to 350.


Actually now I`m testing old 2410 with adapters in the 2360 :)
Crossed at 1khz.

Lee in Montreal
07-17-2017, 01:08 PM
You mean 2441 with Radian diaphragm in 2360? Yup. My mistake.

oks81
07-17-2017, 11:51 PM
No worries :)

On top you use 2405?

Lee in Montreal
07-18-2017, 05:25 AM
No worries :)

On top you use 2405?

No. Just the 2360 for midrange and highs

more10
07-22-2017, 03:42 AM
2360 w/ 2441 and Radian diaphragm. I cross at 500Hz.

Did you try to cross lower?

oks81
08-01-2017, 12:54 AM
Did you try to cross lower?

I have tested the 2446 in 2360 all the way down to 350hz.
In hifi the driver is fine with 350 without diaphragm crash.
BUT it sounds bad!
The 2446 should be crossed at 600hz or higher is what I find out. :)

oks81
08-01-2017, 01:12 AM
After testing BMS 4590 and JBL 2410 1" with adapter in the 2360, I ended up on using the 2446 aquaplas and 2405 tweeter.

This is how the final system looks like.

77698

2360, 2446 aquas, 2405 alnico tweeter, 3 x 2226 in open baffle.



Find the BMS driver to be the best if not using tweeter and can be crossed at 450hz after some testing.

The 2410 1" was also ok, crossed at 1khz and some EQ in the top range. The driver has some ringing under 1500hz, this makes an uncorrect, but cool sound (like growl).

Only crazy people put 2226 in open baffle :)
But it sounds good to me.
It`s crossed half way. Upper bass crossed at 600.
The two lower 2226`s crossed under dipole peak.

oks81
12-02-2017, 09:20 AM
Maybe for inspiration.. :)

This is how this system is today.

79191

-JBL 2405 (can also use 2402, 2404 not tested)
-JBL 2360
-2327 adapter
-2410 1" compression driver with Radian 1225 16ohm diaphragm
-Midbass JBL 2220H 8ohm
-Lower basses JBL 2226H 8ohm


Open Baffle.
130cm high, 80cm wide.
Wings are 40cm.



Passive filter, crossing at about 1500 between 2220 and 2410.
79192



Passive filter if using 2446, crossing at about 750.
79193


Both filters can probably be made a little better, as always :D

1audiohack
12-02-2017, 02:04 PM
2220s and 2360s are two of my favorite things.

Nicely done!

Barry.

oks81
12-02-2017, 04:12 PM
Thanks! :)

This is just bringing an idea of making an JBL Open Baffle.
It works fine down to about 40hz placing the front baffle about 1m from front wall.

Yes the 2220`s and the 2360`s ar addictive :)

It can be done with three 2226s just removing the 10ohm/100w resistor with 2446 drivers.
Have not tried with the 2410 as the 2226 probably will not sound to good into 1500hz.

oks81
02-17-2018, 04:38 AM
Update.

2446 playing with original ribbed Ti diaphragms D8R2450.
When using tweeter crossed 7k don`t find so much advantage using aquaplas.
It`s just a bit different.

Aquaplas adds weight to the diaphragm.

If not using tweeter aquas are best.


Also now use 2404 as tweeters.


Must change filter when changed diaphragm from aquas to Ti.
Freq.response is different.

80158

80159

macsic
02-17-2018, 08:05 AM
Hello! :)

I have JBL 2360 with 2446 compression driver, playing together with 2x2226.
My question is; has any of you any recommendations on other compression driver?
Maybe Altec/GPA 288?

TAD is to expensive...

Best
oks

Hi,
(First I'm french speaking)
I got JBL 2440J and 2441J I have both and i use 2441 it on my 2360. For Hi-FI use the most important thing is the diaphragm you will put in these drivers, forget Ti. Use 2441 Aluminium diaphragm is a must.
With these drivers 2405 are great tweeters I love it.
I have Altec 288c also and they are great also but JBL 2441 are easier to find in good shape.

(Sorry, I Can't put photo)

oks81
02-17-2018, 10:38 AM
Thanks for responding Macsic! :)

Yes, the 2441 i read is very good.
Alu diaphragm, beside beryllium I have not tested.
Beryllium is to expensive.
Alu, maybe some day I buy and try. :)

But I think the original ribbed TI sound quite good as long as use tweeter from 6-7k.
Over 7k the TI diaphragm sound really bad with a lot of resonances.

I have the 2405, and it`s really good!!
2404 is just a tiny bit better with the 2360, but it`s not by much!


I will not test the Altec 288 as it needs adapter.
Adapter makes the already long throat of 2360 even longer...not good.

But, yes, I read and people tell the 288 is really good driver!!
And it can be bought new from GPA! :)

macsic
02-19-2018, 07:58 AM
Hi,
I did not test Berrylium Diaphragm but If I will want to update, the choice of Berrylium in 2441 is cheaper and better choice than buying a TAD after some reading.
Anyway go with 2441-40 with your 2360, it's a great match.
I also try JBL 2395 lens and I prefer the 2360

Titanium has a hard sound compared to aluminum, the silky sound of aluminum is really obvious. I have original diaphragm titanium and aluminum, I have listened to both in the same configuration with JBL 3105 crossover and believe me the Di aluminum are really better for Hi-Fi use. My Titanium 16ohms diaphragms are for sale
since ;-)

For 288c I prefer to use an Altec horns 1005B (very good) and keep the JBL2360 for my 2440 or 41 drivers :)

Bye,

ivica
02-19-2018, 08:15 AM
Thanks for responding Macsic! :)

Yes, the 2441 i read is very good.
Alu diaphragm, beside beryllium I have not tested.
Beryllium is to expensive.
Alu, maybe some day I buy and try. :)

But I think the original ribbed TI sound quite good as long as use tweeter from 6-7k.
Over 7k the TI diaphragm sound really bad with a lot of resonances.

I have the 2405, and it`s really good!!
2404 is just a tiny bit better with the 2360, but it`s not by much!


I will not test the Altec 288 as it needs adapter.
Adapter makes the already long throat of 2360 even longer...not good.

But, yes, I read and people tell the 288 is really good driver!!
And it can be bought new from GPA! :)

Hi oks81,

I would not compare TAD 4" diaphragm driver with JBL 244x loaded with Be (Truext) diaphragm, may be with 476Be only would comparable, but if 2405 is applied, I think that JBL SL diaphragm would be acceptable solution too, as it is not 'ringing' over 10kHz.
Using JBL 4" AL diaphragm (2441) under 800Hz have to be done with more care, especially if not too steep HF network is applied. May be even 2445 Ti diaphragm is not so bad solution too.

regards
ivica




H

oks81
03-04-2018, 02:11 AM
Sorry for late reply :)

Think I will keep as is with the ribbed Ti, it sounds nice as long as lowpass it at 7k.
Maybe try the 2441 dias one day... we will see.

TAD, or Truextent be is to expensive I think.
But, of course the best!


Yes, if using 2405 and want to cross at 8-10khz the aquaplas will be better than ribbed Ti as the Ti starts ringing above 7k.


Have read that 2445 TI dias is i a bit more "harsh" than ribbed Ti. But never heard.

oks

jbl4ever
05-09-2018, 07:01 PM
I liked the 2482's on the 2360 horns at 400hz using the 24db/octave M553 crossover. The highs were done with the little 2407j ring radiator between 4.6 and 4.8 Khz

81078

oks81
05-22-2018, 12:29 PM
Wow! Thats a nice setup! :)
Like the idea of using 2482 with phenolic!
About the same crossover point as I used with BMS4590, used 450hz in the end.

How does 2407 compare to the 2404?