Are their any legit sonic reasons why 70s JBLs and paragons gone through the roof?

[vinny]

Jbls may have surpassed tannoy prices..dont get the hype. Is it the big drivers or the sound. jbl does go big and heavy in their older stuff but just dont understand the insane prices these days. It better sound out of this planet for 10, 15 or 50grand . Bottom line for me. The pricetag paid better translate into incredible sound not just beefy build.

[honkytonkwillie]

The sound is one important factor, but lots of other things add to the escalating prices these vintage speakers fetch. I'll touch on one.

In my own opinion, very much related to the sound is all the research and documentation that these speakers have (always?) had available. It's really easy to see that the sound was engineered - their design choices were not an accident or coincidence or convenience.

Growing up in the 1970s and 80s, my dad's speakers were Pioneer and Sansui from 1972 or so. While they looked really nice, like furniture even, I always thought they sounded pretty bad. After studying speaker building in the 90's and reading some texts by Martin Colloms, Vance Dickason, David Weems, Robert Bullock, et.al., I opened up my dads speakers to see what they were built from. They never had a chance.

I'm convinced that - at the time - electronics manufacturers built speakers just to round out their product offerings as complete systems.

[JeffW]

Iconic halo product? Classic design elements? Beauty in the eye (ear) of the beholder? Why is a (crappy) self portrait of guy with one ear worth more than a private jet?

I just don't understand.

[grumpy]

Enough woulda, shoulda, coulda folks now have some pocket change to relive their past...
nostalgia with perceived quality and status (then and now). Add a level of rarity (in nice condition)
and it blows up.

[vinny]

i understand the build is top notch but in the end isnt it all about sound that counts? How does one justify paying 10gs for L300s to fom rotting drivers? 2 years ago giving them away for 2gs or less..thats insane increase.

[rdgrimes]

I wouldn't lump the Paragon in with all the 70's era models. Certainly not sonically.

[JeffW]

i understand the build is top notch but in the end isnt it all about sound that counts?

Probably not to people looking to buy a Paragon. It's a lot like classic cars, some are really nice to look at but handle like a log wagon, have crappy brakes, touchy carbs - but people still crave them. At one time I had a '64 Corvette. It was beautiful, but suffered from the other maladies mentioned above. A new Toyota sedan would probably run circles around it in most "driving" circumstances - but which do you think people would be clubbing each other over the head for at Barrett-Jackson?



How does one justify paying 10gs for L300s to fom rotting drivers? 2 years ago giving them away for 2gs or less..thats insane increase.

I don't think many people are paying $10K for ragged out L300s. There may be some sellers asking that for them. I have a pocket comb I'll take $1 million for. Doesn't make pocket combs worth $1 million.

[vinny]

not sure can compare sound to physical mechanical parts as to comparison in newer vs older cars? Cars dont make music. A vintage stradivarius does

[JeffW]

not sure can compare sound to physical mechanical parts as to comparison in newer vs older cars? Cars dont make music. A vintage stradivarius does

Sure you can. I just did.

And I've read articles where violin players (not collectors) aren't that enamored with the Strad.

The Paragon is a collectible piece of vintage furniture that plays music. It's no longer the absolute pinnacle of sound reproduction - if it ever was. It's value is in its iconic status as a collectible piece of furniture that plays music. You can buy collectible furniture that costs much, much more than a Paragon and doesn't even play music. You can buy speakers that cost much, much less than a Paragon and sound better - but they aren't classic, iconic pieces of audio furniture.

I seriously doubt that anybody purchasing a Paragon today is doing so because they believe it is currently the best sounding speaker available at that price point. They are buying it because it is a classic, iconic piece of furniture that also plays music.

[mech986]

i understand the build is top notch but in the end isnt it all about sound that counts? How does one justify paying 10gs for L300s to fom rotting drivers? 2 years ago giving them away for 2gs or less..thats insane increase.

You just said "giving them away" 2 years ago for $2K. That was with the then supply and demand, back in the early 2000's the L300 was bouncing between $1500 to $3500 for really prime examples, and occasionally one would sell for $4K. The 2003 and 2008 recessions reduced demand and brought out some supply as people scrambled to convert speakers to cash. In 2013-2014 most still believed the economies were to be stagnant, but the Chinese economy perked along with many new middle and upper class folks looking for stuff to spend on. Today the world economy is working for a lot of people so demand is up for desirable products, new and old, and where supply and demand intersect, price changes accordingly. Shipping for international clients now is just part of the overall costs, and many are resellers to particular clientele who can afford it. Lots of people around the world who now have much more disposable income and they have heard, seen, or were told about how great USA made JBL speakers are, and how some have become iconic speakers for many reasons besides just sound quality.

justify paying $10K? Well those who can spend $10k usually will pay that for top notch restored versions that need nothing but careful shipping to land in a multimillion dollar home. If they have a couple of upper level cars in the garage, the $10K cost is trivial to them. Are they overpaying? That's a judgement call because the line between good to great sound is blurred with the investment aspect of desirable products. A $2K pair of speakers now selling for $6-10K is a pretty good investment return, so if in 5 years that $10k L300 goes to $20k, not a bad return.

since there are no more original L300's being made, supply is capped, and demand continues to grow for the right speakers in the right condition. Look at what Kenrick Sound in Japan can sell stuff for in refurbished or reproduction versions.


not sure can compare sound to physical mechanical parts as to comparison in newer vs older cars? Cars dont make music. A vintage stradivarius does

If you're believe cars don't make music, then you, IMHO, aren't listening. The sound of a rumbling V8 in a Shelby GT350, a Camaro RS 305, a Porsche aircooled Flat 6, or the 12 cylinder Porsche or Ferrari just revvingsitting still or moving is music to many. If you happen to be driving, the rest of the physical and aural experience is blended into one. Whether one gets around the track or road better than the other depends on many many things, and of course the driver's skill and experience. The same happens with speakers, the driver being the music selected and the skill of the musicians and recording engineers, and the owner's skill in creating a system that gives rise to a great aural experience. Which speaker is worth spending huge money on depends a lot on what you like and listen for.


Jbls may have surpassed tannoy prices..dont get the hype. Is it the big drivers or the sound. jbl does go big and heavy in their older stuff but just dont understand the insane prices these days. It better sound out of this planet for 10, 15 or 50grand . Bottom line for me. The pricetag paid better translate into incredible sound not just beefy build.

How does one justify paying the $10K and up (some up to $100K) prices for new speakers like Wilsons and the like? Yeah, they have tremendous build quality too with modern materials and such, but most don't build their own drivers, and most are built in very limited quantity, thus very limited supply. Based on some reviews, they sound fantastic, but to some not worth the price, unless you're very well heeled.

vintage speakers have emotional factors like nostalgia, pride of ownership, appreciation for the company or people building the speakers, and the fact that many vintage designs really actually work pretty well and have stood up to the test of time. There are many many cost effective vintage solutions, but there are also many hi-buck options mainly due to demand, sometimes driven by real listening, some by hype, some by mystique, sometimes by bragging rights.

if you were to audition modern speakers behind a dark but acoustically transparent veil, you and I would probably be hard pressed to correlate price and sound.

[Ed Kreamer]

Vinny;

A good primer on this subject is the Antique Road Show. Watch it some time. It is astounding what an ugly piece of pottery is worth to some people, that I would use for target practice. Same with old Cars, lamps, tables and what ever else. Sometimes things are worth what they are worth only because that is what some putz will pay for it. As for cars there is, nothing like a Ford GT 40 MkII at 200+MPH, and as for Wilson's; that I truly do not understand.

Ed

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Your comments couched as seemingly benign conversational questions has sort of the same vibe to them as the ALTEC 604s suck thread
Then bashing L300s AND Paragons both in the same thread

As for Paragons and what people are willing to pay for one? There's more to it than just intrinsic value vinny, a whole lot more
Note the key word in the top billing for example Lansing "Heritage"

The Paragon was statement piece and still is on a number of levels

Some people find that appealing to own and are willing to pay the freight to do so

I am also interested to know just how many Paragons you've actually had the experience of seeing, touching and hearing, up close and personal?
youtube videos don't count

Joe

[vinny]

sorry still cant compare a mechanical automotive item to a music reproducer. Can only compare a musical reproducer to itself. Thats how i see it. Sound is a unique animal and has many nuances.

[vinny]

Sure you can. I just did.

And I've read articles where violin players (not collectors) aren't that enamored with the Strad.

The Paragon is a collectible piece of vintage furniture that plays music. It's no longer the absolute pinnacle of sound reproduction - if it ever was. It's value is in its iconic status as a collectible piece of furniture that plays music. You can buy collectible furniture that costs much, much more than a Paragon and doesn't even play music. You can buy speakers that cost much, much less than a Paragon and sound better - but they aren't classic, iconic pieces of audio furniture.

I seriously doubt that anybody purchasing a Paragon today is doing so because they believe it is currently the best sounding speaker available at that price point. They are buying it because it is a classic, iconic piece of furniture that also plays music. so everyone is buying paragons primarily for its furniture value and not for sound?

[grumpy]

Did you not get any digestible responses?
Curious what you're looking for...

[JeffW]

so everyone is buying paragons primarily for its furniture value and not for sound?

Furniture that makes sound.

Think about it. There are better sounding speakers (at least more accurate, I have never heard a Paragon) that cost less than a Paragon. By many accounts, it is not the best sounding speaker in the $30K range. If sound reproduction was the only criteria, why would somebody buy a Paragon if not for the aesthetic appeal?

Cars are out, let's try guns.

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/adams-mark-ii-model-1867-revolver-ah3993/

There's an old revolver, it was carried by the Northwest Mounted Police - The Mounties! It's listed at $4500. OK, so it's obviously a much superior firearm to this $1299 pistol

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=SIG-Sauer-P226-Legion-Handgun&i=967758

It's less than 1/3rd the cost, must be inferior, right? Why would anybody buy the inferior SOTA $1299 pistol when the vastly superior $4500 antique revolver exists?

Do you really think anybody shelling out $4500 for that old revolver is buying it because it is a superior firearm the a Sig Sauer P226 Legion? No, they are buying it because it is a rare and iconic trinket that also shoots.



At any rate, I'm done trying to reason with you. Trying to explain the value of art to someone who doesn't appreciate art is an exercise in futility.

[rdgrimes]

so everyone is buying paragons primarily for its furniture value and not for sound?

That's an over-simplification. Its a collectors item, and bit of audio history that represented the pinnacle of "high-end" home audio in its day. Its a lot of things besides a piece of furniture.

[Doctor_Electron]

Why is a (crappy) self portrait of guy with one ear worth more than a private jet?

I just don't understand.

Hmmm Always with the ear, eh? ( from a funny gogurt TV commercial a few years ago )

But seriously folks, I think that quite a few dudes ( and some gals ) really dug and appreciated the very cool esthetically and very hot sonically, big and awesome JBLs when they were young, but could not at the time afford to own them. Now with successful careers and discretional financial assets, they can afford to own and enjoy music with their dream systems, JBLs included.

Add to this the (to my taste) unpleasant and continuing trend of thowaway East Asian dreck that has come to proliferate in the audio marketplace and overall consumer culture. Chalk up another good reason to spend the money on the high quality, superbly engineered, American made classic JBLs.

Same goes for audio electronics, although 60's and early-mid 70's Japanese gear could be at least as good as their made in USA cousins.

In any case it's obvious the prices will only be going up, up, up.

Regarding Kendrick, why isn't someone in the USA or Canada doing similar business? We damn sure know there's a market for that stuff here. Are their loudspeakers like the 4343 (sigh) considered Bona Fide? Do they work under a licensing agreement? Those big blue-faces are definitely the s***.

Well, there's my rant on the subject... I think I would feel better about it all with four or five of those
4343's (sigh) in my living room.

Regards, D_E

Beyond this I have no idea of such motivation other than serious fiscal based investment and possibly basic snobbery.

[JeffW]

Hmmm Always with the ear, eh?

If I hadn't mentioned the ear, would you have known who I was referring to?

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Did you not get any digestible responses?
Curious what you're looking for...
Yeah

[Doctor_Electron]

If I hadn't mentioned the ear, would you have known who I was referring to?

Of course not. But it was a good mention. Have you seen that commercial? It was a crackup. Might be on youtube.

Yes, it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2TzUt0zwao

Regards, D_E

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Regarding Kendrick, why isn't someone in the USA or Canada doing similar business? We damn sure know there's a market for that stuff here. Are their loudspeakers like the 4343 (sigh) considered Bona Fide? Do they work under a licensing agreement? Those big blue-faces are definitely the s***.
Because the lion's share of all the good stuff is over there now, not here
And the customers with the disposable income that want the old JBLs (and Macs and Fishers and Marantzs................)
As well as more people with the skill sets required that are willing to work on old loudspeakers versus doing something else

Joe

[Mr. Widget]

Because the lion's share of all the good stuff is over there now, not here
And the customers with the disposable income that want the old JBLs (and Macs and Fishers and Marantzs................)
As well as more people with the skill sets required that are willing to work on old loudspeakers versus doing something else

JoeSorta... there is simply far more demand over there. Take a look at the threads on this site about the HiFi stores over there. Does anyone in the US know of anything that can compete?

For the most part people are spending their disposable income over here on cars, boats, recreational vehicles of all manner and description. There is still some interest over here, but nothing like there was back in the "golden era".

As to the original poster's question:"Are their any legit sonic reasons why 70s JBLs and paragons gone through the roof?" The answer is simple. No.

The answer to why these vintage systems are going up in price is far more complex and have mostly been beaten into the ground on this thread and others.


Widget

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Sorta... there is simply far more demand over there. Take a look at the threads on this site about the HiFi stores over there. Does anyone in the US know of anything that can compete?
No kidding, that's why most of the good pieces have been bought up and shipped over there and businesses like KENRICK seem to be doing so well, demand
So it's not "sorta" it's exactly
Anyone here that has the interest and can afford KENRICK just pays the shipping and makes it a round trip

As to the original poster's question:"Are their any legit sonic reasons why 70s JBLs and paragons gone through the roof?" The answer is simple. No.
That's your opinion

Joe

[Mr. Widget]

The sorta comment was because I interpreted your cause and effect to be reversed by the way you worded your response. I guess it was my mistake.

As for my comment on the simple answer being no, it is an opinion... but one that can easily be substantiated by quantifiable objective fact.


Widget

[Joseph Smith Jr]

As for my comment on the simple answer being no, it is an opinion... but one that can easily be substantiated by quantifiable objective fact.
Widget
I'd like to see how that is done, how what is more appealing to a given set of Human ears, and therefore more valuable financially speaking to the owner of those ears, can "easily be substantiated by quantifiable objective fact."

After you show me how that's done we can move on to cuts of beef or cigars and wine

Joe

[Mr. Widget]

I'd like to see how that is done, how what is more appealing to a given set of Human ears, and therefore more valuable financially speaking to the owner of those ears, can "easily be substantiated by quantifiable objective fact."

After you show me how that's done we can move on to cuts of beef or cigars and wine

JoeThe question was not are they worth it, worth more, or anything of the sort. The question was "any legit sonic reasons". I suppose we could argue on the meaning of legit, but then I think WE could argue on the meaning of "the".


Widget

[Joseph Smith Jr]

The question was not are they worth it, worth more, or anything of the sort. The question was "any legit sonic reasons". I suppose we could argue on the meaning of legit, but then I think WE could argue on the meaning of "the".


Widget
I am NOT arguing with you, only pointing out that your response is not to the question the OP posed which is all over the map and in my opinion yet another example of troll bait

I also believe that there most certainly are "legit" sonic reasons that people pay what they pay for some of the classic models, never mind how they compare to contemporary designs in a lab

"Legit" does not mean that they have to meet or exceed the objective measurements of today's models, that's my point

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that is why I jumped on your definitive answer of "no"

Joe

Are their any legit sonic reasons why 70s JBLs and paragons gone through the roof?
Jbls may have surpassed tannoy prices..dont get the hype. Is it the big drivers or the sound. jbl does go big and heavy in their older stuff but just dont understand the insane prices these days. It better sound out of this planet for 10, 15 or 50grand . Bottom line for me. The pricetag paid better translate into incredible sound not just beefy build.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

The question was not are they worth it, worth more, or anything of the sort.
It most certainly was brought up and into the mix as more chum was thrown in the water with post #5
Implying rather directly that those willing to drop serious coin for L300s are somehow "insane"?

Joe


i understand the build is top notch but in the end isnt it all about sound that counts? How does one justify paying 10gs for L300s to fom rotting drivers? 2 years ago giving them away for 2gs or less..thats insane increase.

[Mr. Widget]

We are going to have to agree to disagree… I have nothing more to contribute.



Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am NOT arguing with you, only pointing out that your response is not to the question the OP posed which is all over the map and in my opinion yet another example of troll bait

I also believe that there most certainly are "legit" sonic reasons that people pay what they pay for some of the classic models, never mind how they compare to contemporary designs in a lab

"Legit" does not mean that they have to meet or exceed the objective measurements of today's models, that's my point

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that is why I jumped on your definitive answer of "no"

Joe

Are their any legit sonic reasons why 70s JBLs and paragons gone through the roof?
Jbls may have surpassed tannoy prices..dont get the hype. Is it the big drivers or the sound. jbl does go big and heavy in their older stuff but just dont understand the insane prices these days. It better sound out of this planet for 10, 15 or 50grand . Bottom line for me. The pricetag paid better translate into incredible sound not just beefy build.



I don't think the question in the original post was framed correctly.

After numerous posts you decided to analyse the question.

I am not sure why you did not do that in the first place when it's obviously just a conversation starter.

The legitimacy is are they infact original with original parts and part numbers.

The 67000 is going to superior numbers to any of this old stuff but because the early stuff was uncompromised in design unlike a book shelf loudspeaker they are deemed to sound amazing if you can find one to listen to.

Why do you think the JBL statement system white papers refer back to these early systems?

I think you forgot to include a quantitative analysis comparing the number of JBL versus Tannoy in this category on eBay for example.

My own perception is that is not JBL or Tannoy but the very early Altec components that are fetching considerable returns.

Why? Because they are rare, there is a lot written about them by historians like Steve Schell and when restored by folks like OMA they are held in high esteem by the high end fratenitfy.

[JeffW]

Of course not. But it was a good mention. Have you seen that commercial? It was a crackup. Might be on youtube.

Yes, it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2TzUt0zwao

Regards, D_E

Ah, no I hadn't seen the commercial, the punch line whooshed right over my head. Thanks for the link!

[hsosdrum]

The 67000 is going to superior numbers to any of this old stuff but because the early stuff was uncompromised in design unlike a book shelf loudspeaker they are deemed to sound amazing if you can find one to listen to. Why do you think the JBL statement system white papers refer back to these early systems?

As the person who wrote the "statement system white paper" (the Product Commentaries and User Guide book) for what is currently JBL's most prestigious statement systems—the Project Everest DD65000 and DD67000, I think I can shed a bit of light on this.

Ian's comment quoted above is exactly correct. JBL's statement systems going all the way back to the Hartsfield represent a continuum of striving to create the best-performing speakers possible within the current state of the art, with almost no regard for common size and cost restraints. As time has passed and advances have been made in materials, in measurement and evaluation techniques, and in our knowledge of psychoacoustics, the performance of JBL's statement systems has advanced along with them. What makes them all statement systems, however, is not just their performance, it is that their performance has been the very best that was achievable by JBL at the time they were designed.

(Personally, I think the Paragon should be held to a somewhat different standard, since it is a stereo speaker system that was designed to fit into a living space that was typical for the mid-1950s, which imposed a rather substantial size constraint on the system. As such, it used reflections in an attempt to create a stereo soundstage larger than would be possible with non-reflecting speakers spaced the same distance apart. It was also a totally horn-loaded system, and as such, was unable to provide the kind of bass extension that was achievable at the time by bass-reflex systems. To do so would have required a pair of bass horns much too large to fit into any contemporary living space.)

Getting back to the OP's original question, if, after reading all of the well-written answers offered here explaining that an item's intrinsic value may be only marginally related to how well it performs its originally-intended function he still doesn't understand how early JBLs can be worth big money, he's beyond learning the concept. (Personally, I think he's just another troll.)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Outstanding insights.

If Steve and Don are around it would be great to read their insights too.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

(Personally, I think he's just another troll.)
Thank you
Sincere regards,
Joe

[audiomagnate]

i understand the build is top notch but in the end isnt it all about sound that counts? How does one justify paying 10gs for L300s to fom rotting drivers? 2 years ago giving them away for 2gs or less..thats insane increase.

I sold a pair of L300's three years ago for $4,500 btw, and the most recent "high" was $7,600 on eBay. I've never heard of a pair selling for $10,000.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-L-300-SUMMIT-SPEAKERS-MINT-CONDITION-/142053798894?hash=item211310f3ee%3Ag%3Aw4MAAOSww9V XhsEg&nma=true&si=SAcUe4idrjUUFwV%252FPfEgnXs%252FNFM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[vinny]

That's an over-simplification. Its a collectors item, and bit of audio history that represented the pinnacle of "high-end" home audio in its day. Its a lot of things besides a piece of furniture.

so based on the various responses the exhorbitant prices paid for the vintage jbls tannoys and altecs arent worth the prices paid today as the sound doesnt measure up to modern standards? Thats the vibe im getting from everyone at the moment.
Which altecs were being referred to that sell for big bucks? Not as much as jbls prices except maybe first altecs like the insanely priced and paid for a first generation altec dual concentric 604.

[grumpy]

Lol. Not worth it? In regard to state of the art sound no.
As a fun investment? Seemingly so.

Don't know about pricey Altecs, although anything with "voice of the theater"
on it seems to now bring bigger $$ than personally makes sense to me,
but see above. Some of the Laguna/Capistrano era Altec stuff looks nice to me
and is seemingly collectible, again with a vintage sound to go with.

[Ed Kreamer]

so based on the various responses the exhorbitant prices paid the vintage jbls arent worth it as the sound doesnt measure up to modern standards. Its the vibe im getting from everyone. Which altecs were being referred to that sell for big bucks? Not as much as jbls prices.

Not quite. You are, or maybe buying, a museum piece. For example: If I were to buy a Mercedes SSK for my every day driver it would make no sense. Yes it is a car and can get me from here to there, but not nearly as comfortable as a modern car. But as a collectible work of automotive art it might be worth it. Same as say the JBL L65. Sure it can go into my , mid century living room, but If I bought it to be used for critical listening to new recordings, I would be better served by the JBL LSR 6332. But as a piece of late mid century industrial art, it is very much worth it, and as long as I don't to something stupid to it, it will continue to increase in value as a collectible work example piece. If I did get LSR 6332's I'd better figure out how to wrap them in teak.

Altecs have never had the resale value as JBL's. Is it because they are inferior? or is it because collectors are willing to spend more for the L-300 than for the Altec 878.

Ed

[BMWCCA]

so based on the various responses the exhorbitant prices paid the vintage jbls arent worth it as the sound doesnt measure up to modern standards. Its the vibe im getting from everyone. Which altecs were being referred to that sell for big bucks? Not as much as jbls prices.

I suppose I should have chimed in earlier to perhaps change your opinion?

I have a pair of JBL 4345 clones using Kenrick cabinets and populated with new or refurbished-as-new drivers and charge-coupled crossovers. I will—and have—put these up against modern systems, and the vintage JBLs win every time. No need for subwoofers and a 200-watt amp is all that's needed to rattle the windows. I paid a fair price as asked in this group about eight years ago from a forum member. It was still far below the price good-furniture, wife-friendly JBLs go for but these also perform on a level quite a ways above your standard L300 or 4333. I truly think I'd expect to pay $30k, or more, for a new, modern speaker that could hope to compare with mine—and I have no reason to do it.

Maybe some day you'll be asking a similar question about DD67000 Everests when they hit the $10k mark. Ask me, because when they hit that level I won't be able to resist owning a pair just to make the comparison.

Essentially, I'd say the sonic reason is the performance, but the prices of the pro monitors aren't where the more home-friendly iconic models have hit, making them sonically competitive and economically viable.

Try them, you'll like them.

[grumpy]

May seem somewhat contradictory, but +1 :)

When old studio monitors got to the 10K point and M2s came around
it disturbed the equation for me.

[vinny]

I don't think the question in the original post was framed correctly.

After numerous posts you decided to analyse the question.

I am not sure why you did not do that in the first place when it's obviously just a conversation starter.

The legitimacy is are they infact original with original parts and part numbers.

The 67000 is going to superior numbers to any of this old stuff but because the early stuff was uncompromised in design unlike a book shelf loudspeaker they are deemed to sound amazing if you can find one to listen to.

Why do you think the JBL statement system white papers refer back to these early systems?

I think you forgot to include a quantitative analysis comparing the number of JBL versus Tannoy in this category on eBay for example.
Yes that aspect hasnt been touched yet.
My own perception is that is not JBL or Tannoy but the very early Altec components that are fetching considerable returns.

Why? Because they are rare, there is a lot written about them by historians like Steve Schell and when restored by folks like OMA they are held in high esteem by the high end fratenitfy.

I believe the reason for the earliest altecs fetch high prices is due to the transition from western electric going out of business and altec taking over and some could been late wes repackaged as altecs. And the asians go crazy for We.

[vinny]

The sound is one important factor, but lots of other things add to the escalating prices these vintage speakers fetch. I'll touch on one.

In my own opinion, very much related to the sound is all the research and documentation that these speakers have (always?) had available. It's really easy to see that the sound was engineered - their design choices were not an accident or coincidence or convenience.

Growing up in the 1970s and 80s, my dad's speakers were Pioneer and Sansui from 1972 or so. While they looked really nice, like furniture even, I always thought they sounded pretty bad. After studying speaker building in the 90's and reading some texts by Martin Colloms, Vance Dickason, David Weems, Robert Bullock, et.al., I opened up my dads speakers to see what they were built from. They never had a chance.

I'm convinced that - at the time - electronics manufacturers built speakers just to round out their product offerings as complete systems.

As a audio enthusiast trying to achieve and listen to great sound is the reason why i like this hobby so much. Styling construction is all good but if it dont sound good to me then theres no point of paying big bucks for it even if its a heritage piece. If one is buying audio for nostalgic historical significance, rarity, and and or to have their equipment sitting on a shelf or floor just to look pretty and never to be used and not care how they sound then thats a different kind of hobby. With all those amazing drivers in the paragon olympus or hartsfield Everest they must sound pretty good for people paying 30-40gs in America Japan Canada and China for them. Have any of you had experience listening to them?

[vinny]

these days i dont think people are that stupid to pay crazy money for things that dont sound very good. If that were the case the price would drop quickly and resell value would be low. Marantz solid state 2200 series prime example. Prices have gone up and up more than original retail prices. Mac vintage solid state prices have dropped bit because people are realizing it doesnt sound so good and they are right they sound terrible. Old altec poweramps ss sounds much better but they are ugly looking but who cares if they sound great.

[JeffW]

these days i dont think people are that stupid to pay crazy money for things that dont sound very good.

And yet examples of people spending crazy money on other old items that are nowhere near SOTA have been given in this thread. People do it every day.

[rdgrimes]

these days i dont think people are that stupid to pay crazy money for things that dont sound very good..

Your premise that things that "don't sound very good" have less value is wrong. Also that someone would be stupid in any case, that's also wrong. People decide for themselves what has value, and your ideas don't enter into it.

[SEAWOLF97]

I think there are other factors here that have only been slightly touched on.

My THEORY is that many of the L300's, L100's..etc are being bought by baby boomers who could not afford those speakers NEW. Now they have time to enjoy and money to buy.
I lusted after L-100's in '73 , but at $273 EACH, they were way out of my price range.
Now ? pffft. ;) And even IF L-300's are going for $10K , current high end is more expensive than that. Plus, you generally are happy with gear you are familiar with.

Also feel that the nostalgia effect overpowers the lack of SOTA performance. Most in that age group don't have SOTA ears anymore either. Bang for the buck ..sufficing....why spend lots for capacity that isn't needed ?

And maybe listening habits add into the equation too. Maybe they are listening to classic recordings that sound better on vintage and are better suited than current high end speakers :dont-know:

My wife is Asian. I noted that many others are buying expensive houses although there are only 2 persons being housed. I asked her "whaz up wif dat" ??? Her answer surprised me..
"You have to show your friends that you are doing OKAY"

Lastly .... I'm seeing a slight trends towards building MONO systems , film cameras, typewriters, cassette tapes , etc. Their prices are rising :blink:

[1audiohack]

I have a question for vinny.

What exactly are driving at?

The only time I see a question mark in any of your posts is in the middle and it is always followed by a statement, where you answer your own question.

If you have come to tell us all that the money we have spent on our heritage equipment is stupid, then say it and be done.

Are you really trying to figure something out? If so, a little insight on why might help. It seems obvious to me that we are getting nowhere near helping you see this as we see it.

Sincerely,
Barry.

[vinny]

I have a question for vinny.

What exactly are driving at?

The only time I see a question mark in any of your posts is in the middle and it is always followed by a statement, where you answer your own question.

If you have come to tell us all that the money we have spent on our heritage equipment is stupid, then say it and be done.

Are you really trying to figure something out? If so, a little insight on why might help. It seems obvious to me that we are getting nowhere near helping you see this as we see it.

Sincerely,
Barry.
Topic for conversation, learning from one another, listening to others viewpoints. Audio is never black and white.

[1audiohack]

Hi vinny;

OK. It just seemed to me like we were on separate pages and not getting anywhere. We do like being helpful. :)

Thanks for the clarification.

All the best,
Barry.

[vinny]

I suppose I should have chimed in earlier to perhaps change your opinion?

I have a pair of JBL 4345 clones using Kenrick cabinets and populated with new or refurbished-as-new drivers and charge-coupled crossovers. I will—and have—put these up against modern systems, and the vintage JBLs win every time. No need for subwoofers and a 200-watt amp is all that's needed to rattle the windows. I paid a fair price as asked in this group about eight years ago from a forum member. It was still far below the price good-furniture, wife-friendly JBLs go for but these also perform on a level quite a ways above your standard L300 or 4333. I truly think I'd expect to pay $30k, or more, for a new, modern speaker that could hope to compare with mine—and I have no reason to do it.

Try them, you'll like them.
Your answer intrigues me i would like to build the ultimate vintage JBl system myself. I tried pmming you but your email is full need to make space lol