Would you use this wire for L-pads?

[David24x7]

I'm building some new crossovers for my 4333 using Nelson Pass design - but modified for bi-amp. Based on how the original 3133 crossovers were built, I'm running wires from crossover board to the L-Pads and back to the crossover board before running final wires to the individual drivers - so I wanted to have a single multi-conductor wire rather than lots of individual wires.

Anyway, the only thing like this they had a home depot was this 18/7 irrigation wire which I can only assume means 18 gauge / 7 conductors. The wire is solid, not stranded. Do you think this wire is acceptable with regard to sound quality? My other option would be to shrinkwrap multiple single 18 gauge stranded wires into a single bundle.

What would you do?

72411

[just4kinks]

If you're biamping, you only need one lpad per speaker, right? Why not just twist a pair? I use an electric drill, takes about 5 seconds. For three-four conductors you can braid them if you're patient.

[quindecima]

I would use stranded. It will carry more current and is much easier to work with than solid core. If you want a single strand enclose it in a length of heat shrink tubing.

[300_Summit]

If you're biamping, you only need one lpad per speaker, right? Why not just twist a pair? I use an electric drill, takes about 5 seconds. For three-four conductors you can braid them if you're patient.


Actually, the 4333 has two L-pads per speaker; one for the 2420/2421 and one for the 2405

[300_Summit]

I'm building some new crossovers for my 4333 using Nelson Pass design - but modified for bi-amp. Based on how the original 3133 crossovers were built, I'm running wires from crossover board to the L-Pads and back to the crossover board before running final wires to the individual drivers - so I wanted to have a single multi-conductor wire rather than lots of individual wires.

Anyway, the only thing like this they had a home depot was this 18/7 irrigation wire which I can only assume means 18 gauge / 7 conductors. The wire is solid, not stranded. Do you think this wire is acceptable with regard to sound quality? My other option would be to shrinkwrap multiple single 18 gauge stranded wires into a single bundle.

What would you do?

72411


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=63743&d=1417833611

Personally, I would use 2 sets of 16/4 stranded. One loom for the 2420/2421 l-pad and one loom for the 2405 l-pad. IMHO, It'll be less confusing that way. You would need 3 wires total for each l-pad. One wire coming from the crossover to post 3 of the l-pad. One wire for the positive side of the speaker and one wire for the negative side of the speaker. These would be post 1 & 2 of the l-pad

[Joseph Smith Jr]

I'm building some new crossovers for my 4333 using Nelson Pass design - but modified for bi-amp. Based on how the original 3133 crossovers were built, I'm running wires from crossover board to the L-Pads and back to the crossover board before running final wires to the individual drivers - so I wanted to have a single multi-conductor wire rather than lots of individual wires.

Anyway, the only thing like this they had a home depot was this 18/7 irrigation wire which I can only assume means 18 gauge / 7 conductors. The wire is solid, not stranded. Do you think this wire is acceptable with regard to sound quality? My other option would be to shrinkwrap multiple single 18 gauge stranded wires into a single bundle.

What would you do?

72411
To answer your question, yes it is perfectly fine with regard to sound quality
Kind of heavy and stiff, but fine as for sound
I use building supply store wire all the time for audio purposes
Copper is copper

Joe

[just4kinks]

Actually, the 4333 has two L-pads per speaker; one for the 2420/2421 and one for the 2405

Maybe I shouldn't have assumed that "modified for bi-amp" meant "biamp-only". If biamp-only then it would be pretty standard to remove one of the lpads and reduce attenuation on the other to compensate. Then you can run a smaller amp on the top end.

Also, why not just run a pair from the crossover to the lpad, and another pair from the lpad to the driver? Quite a bit less wire that way...

[David24x7]

Maybe I shouldn't have assumed that "modified for bi-amp" meant "biamp-only". If biamp-only then it would be pretty standard to remove one of the lpads and reduce attenuation on the other to compensate. Then you can run a smaller amp on the top end.

Also, why not just run a pair from the crossover to the lpad, and another pair from the lpad to the driver? Quite a bit less wire that way...

For now, I am bi-amp only. Looking at the schematic for the Nelson Pass mod, i simply didn't build the circuit for the woofer as that signal will come straight from the bottom amp. I did build the full circuits for the mid and hi end. Which of the lpads would you have removed?



I could just go directly from lpad to the speakers. I thought it might be cleaner with the bundle like the stock 3133. I guess you don't see the insides anyway. BTW - I did find an 18 gauge / 7 stranded conductor bundle at a specialty electronics store so I can use that instead.

I'm running a Dynaco ST-75 (35wpc) tube amp for the top end which I think should be enough. Currently using a Sansui AU-7500 (32 wpc) solid state for the bottom end but I probably want to get something a little more powerful later (like maybe a Crown D-150?).

On a side note, for your lpad knobs - are they flush with the face of the speaker or do they stick out a bit?

[Joseph Smith Jr]

I would use stranded. It will carry more current
Explain that statement for me if you would, assuming we are talking the same gauge because I think you are mistaken
I also think that solid core is superior for any static application as it much less susceptible to corrosion than stranded and makes for a better solid connection with screw type terminations

Joe

[quindecima]

Explain that statement for me if you would, assuming we are talking the same gauge because I think you are mistaken
I also think that solid core is superior for any static application as it much less susceptible to corrosion than stranded and makes for a better solid connection with screw type terminations

Joe

Electricity does not travel thru the wire it travels around it, hence stranded wire has more area than a single strand. Skin effect but really it's such a small amount to be hard to measure it's really the insulation that is the limiting factor. At 60hz I don't think the cross sectional area means squat only when the wire gets really large (it's made hollow then) does it matter. Some terminations are better with stranded and some are better with solid.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Electricity does not travel thru the wire it travels around it, hence stranded wire has more area than a single strand. Skin effect but really it's such a small amount to be hard to measure it's really the insulation that is the limiting factor. At 60hz I don't think the cross sectional area means squat only when the wire gets really large (it's made hollow then) does it matter. Some terminations are better with stranded and some are better with solid.
You still haven't told me how and why you made the statement that a stranded wire can carry more current than a solid core wire of the same gauge, because it can't
Stranded wire of a given gauge is bigger in diameter than it's solid core counterpart because there is air between the strands, but as for current carrying capacity they are exactly the same
Now the subject seems to have changed to skin effect
Skin effect pertains to current density and frequency, not quantity, and that is not what you stated
There may be some minute effect on higher frequencies in the audio bandwidth but that is a debate that has raged forever, the debate being whether you can actually hear the effects of it or not

[quindecima]

You still haven't told me how and why you made the statement that a stranded wire can carry more current than a solid core wire of the same gauge, because it can't
Stranded wire of a given gauge is bigger in diameter than it's solid core counterpart because there is air between the strands, but as for current carrying capacity they are exactly the same
Now the subject seems to have changed to skin effect
Skin effect pertains to current density and frequency, not quantity, and that is not what you stated
There may be some minute effect on higher frequencies in the audio bandwidth but that is a debate that has raged forever, the debate being whether you can actually hear the effects of it or not

O.K. My assumption is that more surface area of the wire enables it to carry more current as opposed to the solid core that has less surface area, that's what I said and that is skin effect I haven't changed anything. that being said I can't prove it but I challenge you to prove different.

[just4kinks]

Guys, check out this gauge chart, page 3:
http://www.calmont.com/pdf/calmont-eng-wire-gauge.pdf

Every stranding configuration is shown along with its cross-sectional area and resistance. The interesting thing to me is that cross-sectional area is not the same for all types of 18g. Also resistances range from 5.74-7.45Ω / 1000ft and solid is right in the middle at 6.51Ω.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Guys, check out this gauge chart, page 3:
http://www.calmont.com/pdf/calmont-eng-wire-gauge.pdf

Every stranding configuration is shown along with its cross-sectional area and resistance. The interesting thing to me is that cross-sectional area is not the same for all types of 18g. Also resistances range from 5.74-7.45Ω / 1000ft and solid is right in the middle at 6.51Ω.
That's due to whatever way it is that company "Calmont" has manufactured their wire
Stranded wire is manufactured to different compression factors and specs to meet the needs of the end user
Also insulation can differ for various reasons and to meet specific ratings

Joe

[just4kinks]

For now, I am bi-amp only. Looking at the schematic for the Nelson Pass mod, i simply didn't build the circuit for the woofer as that signal will come straight from the bottom amp. I did build the full circuits for the mid and hi end. Which of the lpads would you have removed?

I would probably remove the lpad from the 2420 and add a small fixed attenuation instead.

Edit: On second thought, less is more and this leg already has 6dB of attenuation. So I'd start with just a single 16Ω 5W in parallel with the driver, connected directly to L3. This is no additional attenuation but L3 will still see 8Ω.

It's just an idea. I always prefer fewer moving parts if possible but maybe it's different if you already have the lpads installed in the speaker.


I could just go directly from lpad to the speakers. I thought it might be cleaner with the bundle like the stock 3133. I guess you don't see the insides anyway. BTW - I did find an 18 gauge / 7 stranded conductor bundle at a specialty electronics store so I can use that instead.

I'm running a Dynaco ST-75 (35wpc) tube amp for the top end which I think should be enough. Currently using a Sansui AU-7500 (32 wpc) solid state for the bottom end but I probably want to get something a little more powerful later (like maybe a Crown D-150?).

On a side note, for your lpad knobs - are they flush with the face of the speaker or do they stick out a bit?

Is that question for me? I have external crossovers.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

.....with a wikipedia article (easy and condensed), but there are plenty of scholarly writings (mathematics) on the net to validate my statement that your statement was erroneous. You can spend YOUR time digging them up and posting them here if you like:

O.K. My assumption is that more surface area of the wire enables it to carry more current as opposed to the solid core that has less surface area, that's what I said and that is skin effect I haven't changed anything. that being said I can't prove it but I challenge you to prove different.
"At high frequencies, current travels near the surface of the wire because of the skin effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect), resulting in increased power loss in the wire. Stranded wire might seem to reduce this effect, since the total surface area of the strands is greater than the surface area of the equivalent solid wire, but ordinary stranded wire does not reduce the skin effect because all the strands are short-circuited together and behave as a single conductor. A stranded wire will have higher resistance than a solid wire of the same diameter because the cross-section of the stranded wire is not all copper; there are unavoidable gaps between the strands (this is the circle packing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_packing) problem for circles within a circle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packing_problem#Circles_in_circle)). A stranded wire with the same cross-section of conductor as a solid wire is said to have the same equivalent gauge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge#Tables_of_AWG_wire_sizes) and is always a larger diameter."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire#Solid_wire

AND "skin effect" is FREQUENCY DEPENDENT and NOT a problem in audio, at least not with wiring up a speaker box, which is the subject that sparked this debate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect

But, with no disrespect, I will agree with you that for applications where frequency and signal transfer (line level and below, ie. phono) and protection (shielding) is a matter of concern and greater flexibility is a must, you will see multi-stranded cables employing expensive weaves and braids of conductors, like Litz patterns for example. Microphone cables, phono cables etc, but this has nothing to do with current carrying capability. The individual conductors are actually isolated from one another electrically to behave as small gauge individual solid conductors. But these cables, such as the fabled Klotz GY107 are a far cry from simple stranded wire like one would find at the building supply store:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litz_wire

[quindecima]

Yes, I see nothing productive coming from looking for that stuff so that's it for me.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Yes, I see nothing productive coming from looking for that stuff so that's it for me.
That's fine, I went further than I intended as well, and like I said, no disrespect, but I was only responding to YOUR invitation
There is nothing to look for, it was a suggestion for your benefit as you seemed to doubt my take on things, the facts are the facts, but you were the one who posted this:


O.K. My assumption is that more surface area of the wire enables it to carry more current as opposed to the solid core that has less surface area, that's what I said and that is skin effect I haven't changed anything. that being said I can't prove it but I challenge you to prove different.
You made a statement, on a technical forum, regarding current carrying capabilities of stranded wire that just was not true and then appeared willing to debate it when I disagreed, even issuing a "challenge" to that effect

That was my only motive here, I was simply responding to your request

Joe