My latest 515B's with 511B/802/N-500-D I'm happy!

[bruno13]

These as every build I do are a labor of love. To bring dance partners together and by that I mean bringing components together. I think the most overlooked component in any system is the conductor...I mean the crossover. My analogy is the woofers, mid range, tweeter/horn, and horn driver are the musicians. No matter how great the musician and you could have a room full of them, it will sound like chaos...until the Mistro or conductor steps into the room. He will delegate how and when each instrument comes in. I found this out, but I had to find out by trial and much error. But with patients, I overcame the inherent problems vintage speaker builder encounter, or at least I encountered. But I found the sweet spot! And when I use my ultimate bass test album War with Eric Burden the song "Low Rider" I get earth shattering, sharp, concise bass that is capable of rattling my dual pained windows and wake the cows! But for some mysterious reason these new (new to me that is) Altec 515B's in cabinets I built to Altec 612 specification...well sorta, you could actually just barely squeeze a 612 cabinet into mine with a quarter in here to spare and a half inch there, not to mention I used 1inch wood that I made with 3/4in MDF and a 1/4in hardwood...we'll call it vernier, glued and screwed to make the 1in wood I would use. Anyway I paired the 515B's with the 511B horns and the 802's for horn drivers, and tied this all together with some (believe it or not) NOS Altec N-500-D crossovers. And even though they sound great, they could not hold a candlestick to my first build which were a little bit larger cabinet 34X30X24inches stuffed with 2 woofers Altec 416's and Altec 803's (a 416 and 803 in each cab) woofers with 1004B 10 celled horns driven by Altec 288 drivers, tied together with Altec's N-800-D's, and I was to say the least...disappointed. Oh and did I mention that all of the components with the exception of the crossovers, 1004B/288 and 515B's are all Heathkit by Altec, I don't think Heathkit ever did a 515, at least not that I'm aware of. but they did do 511B horns with much nicer welds and finish work and also in my opinion built a much tighter spec'd 416 and 803. So I now know that the 515B's are not that much more of a woofer than the little brothers 803 and 416 and in that order 515, 803, 416, and the 803/416 beats hands down.7173071731717327173371734

[gdmoore28]

Those are some attractive, interesting builds, Bruno. I have a few questions beyond your description, if you don't mind. Please don't take any of these questions as criticism of your builds. That's not my intention. I'm simply curious as to the directions that we all make in designing our speakers. I'm not an expert - not by a long shot - so I take every opportunity I get to discover the reasoning that we use to build what we build.

1) I know that you based your latest build on the Altec 612 - with a little room to spare. Respecting the low bass response you describe, have you tried entering the actual dimensions of your cabinet into one of the on-line calculators to determine the recommended port size? It is probable that using the 515 in the 612 cab will require port size adjustment.

2) Your comments on the Onken-type build leads me to believe that you have hit your sonic target. Was this cabinet - using two different woofers - based on published specifications? If so, could you provide a link? Are the two woofers living in independent sub-enclosures inside the boxes and taking advantage of their individual responses? Are the individual speakers rated at 8 or 16 ohms?

3) Your crossover choices are not unusual. In fact, I would guesstimate that most Altec builds retain the factory crossovers - usually with cap replacements. There is no doubt, assuming the bass enclosures are delivering typical Altec response characteristics, that the original crossovers are ensuring that the overall system performance and tone is relatively true to the originals. I that's your preference, why change it?

My ears, though, object a bit to the pronounced midrange accentuation allowed by the stock crossovers. My build will involve building crossovers that will shape the horn's tone to my liking. There's no right or wrong, just personal preference.

4) Regarding the build quality of the Altec-manufactured Heathkits components, I think you may be right, but only as regards the horn castings. Based on close-up photos of the Heathkit horns and my own 511Bs, it seems Altec may have been a bit more picky about the casting quality/welding on the horns provided to Heathkit. The reasons are, I think, obvious.

Thanks for posting the description and pics of your two speaker builds. I would love to hear them. They certainly look good.

GeeDeeEmm

[bruno13]

Hi GD, Let me see if I can clarify, and answer your questions. First off I would like to comment on one of your comments, you said, "there's no right or wrong, just personal preference" In my opinion no other words ring more truth. You can hook up the latest in technologies sine waves, graphs till the cows come home, but when all the smoke and mirrors fall to the wayside your ears will be the final judge. That being said, I will start with your question number
1) The 612 cab on steroids port size. I just looked for my 612 spec sheet couldn't find it so I'll try from memory. First I believe it was created for a 515, 416, and a few other LF drivers. and had a port size (without an actual chamber) of 7 3/4" X 5 3/4" X 3/4" (thickness of the baffle). And in my limited experience that wasn't going to work, but I wanted my options open, so I built more of a chambered port that had the 612 port hole opening to size then flared to about 2 3/4" larger both in width and height, being 8" deep. A structure that I could modify of even remove if it didn't produce my "sonic target" but by the luck of the Irish I think I did, and truly by shear luck. The crossovers I chose were Altecs N-500-G's, again I looked hi and low for the N-500-B's but either too pricey or too beat up. The G's were never ever installed before me. Lastly, I have what I call "tuned cabinets" If you can visualize this, I start with a 4"X4" for bracing internally. I cut said 4X4 to be 1/2" smaller than the interior of the cabinet both width and height and make like a cross inlaying the two pieces together at the center. Then screw into all four ends of the cross with metal 1/2" X 1" long inserts with inside threads of 3/8", then on the outside of the cabinets in the center of the floor, the top and the center of the 2 sides drill a 3/8" hole. I use the flat pancaked about the size and thickness of a dime with an allen head 2inches long (cab thickness 1" + 1/4" gap + 1" insert totaling 2.25in) leaving me my adjustment room.

2) No my audio friend I do not have a link. This Onken style cabinet that started it's life to be a single 15in woofered internal horned (811B) was an attempt to recreate a lost luv for a pair of Altec Valencia's I had as a young man of 22yrs dating a dancer in Phoenix who sold me her boyfriends (who was in prison) beautiful speaker....oh hell, that's another story in itself, so back to the question, no...no link I started this build with nothing more than the desire to have music in my home again, because after Owning the Valencia's for over 20yrs I sold them because I didn't want to store them for 2yrs while me and 2 buddy's sailed the world, but that too is another story. I could never just have a stereo...I had owned Altec's, and unless I could have Alec's I wouldn't have anything less, so consistently raising kids and all that goes with that I didn't have music. So the build stated with a 416 (Heathkit) an 811B horn and 802 drivers,
N-800-F...NOT satisfied. Then I tried 511B which barely fit the designated horn compartment which by the way was it's own compartment separate from the woofers spec'd CF compartment. And with the vertical vents I could adjust with...are there any girls in the room...I found that Kotex ya know the big ones fit perfectly into my slots and wound up using only 2 and a half of the 4-slots per side for hitting my "sonic target"! I also incorporated my "tuned cab" technique on this. But alas I still was not satisfied. So back to the drawing board I went, and what emerged was this...I had found a very nice pair of 1004B horns so I bought some 288 drivers and hung them, keep in mind my 511's and 802's are still in the cab not being used, and the horns have taken over, way too over powering for my dinky little 416's, that when it hit me...I need to make a new baffle, a 2-holer! So my friend who does custom cabinets the kitchen type has a CNC machine and cuts my wood. The cabs would just barely fit 2-16in hole vertically, but it worked! So now the cab is a one compartment 2-woofer cabinet...will it work? I'm still running the N-800-F's remember, the day came when it was ready to do a test run, and...damn. Yea it's okay, just not how I remember the Valencia's sounding. so for two weeks I was...okay with it, and one day I'm sitting there with an empty house and thought, I wonder...I had these very nice N-800-D laying around, and I had had these thing torn apart so many times that it was no big deal to pop the backs off and get the soldering iron out, if I didn't like it I could change it back....so off they came, the D's were hooked up and set in the floor of the cab and...a CD was inserted, Low...Ry...Der was chosen and to my bewildered surprise the heavens opened up and angels were floating about my ears, because I have struck it solid!!! This surpassed my wildest expectations for quality of sound, I still get goose bumps when I think about my....luck in this audio matter...wow.

3) What...what? Original what?? To my knowledge Altec never did anything so utterly unorthodox as to put a 416 and 803 in the same cab, no my fried I was in uncharted territory here, there were no links, no old archived Altec notes, I was on my own. But again, I didn't hit my mark easily. It took many tries, and many nights going to bed with my tail between my legs not to mention the countless boxes of Kotex...but in the end I satisfied the only customer that matters...my ears! And if you were to come to Arizona, you are more than welcome to hear my "Gentle Giants". For some reason it all came together, and my 416/803 kicks the you know what out of my 515B's, and that makes no sense, I have wanted the infamous 515B since...well since forever. And now that I finally own a pair...I'm thinking they might be for sale soon, because I don't need second best, I have the best, and wound up using NO Kotex to do it!!!

and lastly,
4) well, you might change your mind on that. You see, I have 2 511B horns, that's not true, I supposedly have 2-Heathkit 511B's horns. I have more Altec 511B horns too, and the finish on the one I bought with an Heathkit 802 driver and the one I bought from a guy who claimed it was an older version of Heathkit...I don't know, maybe he found the sticker but I never really thought it was Heathkit. ON the one I'm certain about however came to me without mounting holes drilled, all of the welds are cleaned up unlike Altec, and when you run your fingers through and around the inside of the throat areas it's as smooth as a new born butt, something I've never seen before. So I would probably have to disagree with you on your number 4 comment about Altec being a cleaner job, but hey, when you come out to hear what I'm saying, I'll let you run your hands over the 60degree disbursement areas!

WOW! I do go on, don't I? That is a standing invitation for you to come to the cool pines of northern Arizona, kick off your shoes, and check em out. If I didn't answer everything, please let me know.

Regards,
Mike

[gdmoore28]

WOW! I do go on, don't I? That is a standing invitation for you to come to the cool pines of northern Arizona, kick off your shoes, and check em out. If I didn't answer everything, please let me know.

Regards,
Mike


Yes, you do! But that's fine. So do I. My wife retires soon - hopefully - and I've been needling her to make Arizona one of our first destinations when we start traveling. So, your invitation may be accepted!

I think you misunderstood what I wrote about the quality of the Heathkit horns. I was actually agreeing with you. I've had Altec horns that were very sloppily welded. I've even seen gobs of weld that had run down and pooled inside the horn. In the pics of horns provided to Heathkit, I've never seen that sloppiness. The Heath horns seemed to have been hand-picked by Altec. I'd be interesting to know for sure.

It will come as no surprise to anybody that, when it comes to building speaker enclosures, the online calculators take the guess work out of it. I'm an old guy and came late to the game of learning about T/S parameters and using them to build boxes that rarely fail to wring the most out of a given speaker. That's why I asked whether you had modeled your boxes before building them (not hard to do - just enter T/S numbers into the online calculator and the computer does it for you. Thank goodness. Pencils, calculators, and algebra are NOT my forte!).

I've just begun to research the Onken design for my next 416-based build. I'm into the visual impact that a design makes, and the Onken is really impressive to look at. Unfortunately, the dimensions I've found for my particular build are quite large. I simply may not have room for them.

Well, thanks again for posting your pics and your text. I've enjoyed the banter!

GeeDeeEmm

[bruno13]

When you talk your wife into the Arizona trip are you planning on Phoenix? I live in the cool pines in a ski resort town called Show Low. It's in the north central part of the state less than an hour south of I-40 from Holbrook. I have 2 extra bedrooms too! One is full of LP's but the other isn't so I leave the light on for you! I'm saying this jokingly, but at the same time I am serious, like minds...hard to find sometimes. My phone # is (928) 242-9853 give me a week or so heads up, and I'll have the mints on the pillows! Hey also I found the picture that I robbed design ideas from, you had mentioned the "Onken design" here's a picture of an Onken that my next build will resemble...
Regards,
Mike

[bruno13]

When you talk your wife into the Arizona trip are you planning on Phoenix? I live in the cool pines in a ski resort town called Show Low. It's in the north central part of the state less than an hour south of I-40 from Holbrook. I have 2 extra bedrooms too! One is full of LP's but the other isn't so I leave the light on for you! I'm saying this jokingly, but at the same time I am serious, like minds...hard to find sometimes. My phone # is (928) 242-9853 give me a week or so heads up, and I'll have the mints on the pillows! Hey also I found the picture that I robbed design ideas from, you had mentioned the "Onken design" here's a picture of an Onken that my next build will resemble...
Regards,
Mike

71816

[gdmoore28]

Mike,
Your offer is very generous, and I'm taking it quite seriously. Talked to my wife about it last night, and she's game. Don't know when this will happen, but I truly appreciate the offer.

I've had a chance to copy the information you've provided, so please go back and edit your post to delete your telephone number. The folks here are good people, but you never know when somebody with ill intentions will take advantage of the information. Just be safe about this.

I've seen that picture of the Onken cabinet before somewhere. That's a beautiful design. I'm wondering what the internal dimensions are once that bass cab horn sucks so much real estate from inside? Seems the cab dimensions would need to be huge to accommodate that horn.

Except for the crossover, I now have on hand the components to build some sort of speaker incorporating the 416 woofs, 511b horns, and 802D drivers. I've considered so many potential cabinet designs that I've simply stopped progress on the build due to indecision. I have a large pile of mahogany-veneered mdf that I salvaged from several very large desks. All of it is either 3/4" or 1 3/8" thick - and heavy beyond imagination. I've been doing measurements of the pieces to see exactly what size corner cabinet I can get out of this supply. Looks like 5 cu ft will be no problem, but I think that by adding a couple of additional sheets of 3/4" mdf I can get them up to 7.5 cu ft. We'll see.

GeeDeeEmm