I freaked out! Why Everest doesn't do 20Hz?

[johnhere]

Ain't no ability to achieve 20-20kHz +/-2dB for a $60,000 pair of speakers when my friend's $600 ear buds that can easily do that?


Why?


Not cool. Very not cool.

[Mr. Widget]

Really? I guess you are easily freaked out.

FWIW: I was recently running a test CD with a sliding low frequency scale. In my room my DD66000s were reasonably flat at 30Hz and still surprisingly loud at 20Hz where the test stopped.


Widget

[Mctwins]

Ain't no ability to achieve 20-20kHz +/-2dB for a $60,000 pair of speakers when my friend's $600 ear buds that can easily do that?


Why?


Not cool. Very not cool.

It is your room acoustics that is the problem. Can you provide with some measurements or what kind of measurements did you do?

[mech986]

Ain't no ability to achieve 20-20kHz +/-2dB for a $60,000 pair of speakers when my friend's $600 ear buds that can easily do that?


Why?


Not cool. Very not cool.

Well, a $600 pair of earbuds has the advantage of being almost directly connected to the ear and sealing the ear canal. It can probably play at insanely loud levels but almost certainly would be breaking up quickly. the one thing earbuds cannot do is give you soundstage. It can give you spatial clues right and left, but nothing front, back, up and down. And you cannot share them with anyone, nor hear a lot more of the recording space. And while you're at it, you have to listen to whatever you can plug your earbuds into, much of which might be lacking in some level of sound quality.

As for the room, you or your friend might have a very poorly set up room with plenty of room nodes that can cancel or enhance low bass depending on your listening position or speaker placement. If you're listening in a demo room, chances are its a compromise.

But I can guarantee you, the Everest will get down to probably 20Hz at -2db with authority, given a proper amplifier and source, and provide you with soundstage and imaging that the earbuds could not touch.

[4313B]

Ain't no ability to achieve 20-20kHz +/-2dB for a $60,000 pair of speakers when my friend's $600 ear buds that can easily do that?


Why?


Not cool. Very not cool.You're not cool.

The system wasn't designed for Internet trolls.

Virtually all the people that mattered bought a pair.

[audiomagnate]

Ain't no ability to achieve 20-20kHz +/-2dB for a $60,000 pair of speakers when my friend's $600 ear buds that can easily do that?


Why?


Not cool. Very not cool.

pa•thet•ic (pə-thĕtˈĭk)
►


adj.
Arousing or capable of arousing sympathetic sadness and compassion: "The old, rather shabby room struck her as extraordinarily pathetic” ( John Galsworthy).

adj.
Arousing or capable of arousing scornful pity.

[BMWCCA]

I suppose it wouldn't be hard to reproduce a 50-foot wave form in your ear-canal since you'd only need a tiny bit of it but it would still seem to need some extreme excursion on the part of the in-ear transducer to even begin to get there. Not sure I've ever heard an in-ear that could produce 20Hz. I've seen plenty that claimed it, but since you generally feel anything in that range in your whole body rather than "hear" it, I'd call such claims bogus. Even my "Nakamichi" ear-buds (purchased at K-mart for $9.99) only claim 50Hz—20KHz, and they lie about everything else on their packaging!
Now I seen an $800 pair of Sennheiser in-ears claim 8—41,000 Hz (-3dB)!

[dezmond]

That is what subwoofers are for.

[JeffW]

Maybe you could re-design the crossover for them :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVZh4WcdC3s

[audiomagnate]

I suppose it wouldn't be hard to reproduce a 50-foot wave form in your ear-canal since you'd only need a tiny bit of it but it would still seem to need some extreme excursion on the part of the in-ear transducer to even begin to get there. Not sure I've ever heard an in-ear that could produce 20Hz. I've seen plenty that claimed it, but since you generally feel anything in that range in your whole body rather than "hear" it, I'd call such claims bogus. Even my "Nakamichi" ear-buds (purchased at K-mart for $9.99) only claim 50Hz—20KHz, and they lie about everything else on their packaging!
Now I seen an $800 pair of Sennheiser in-ears claim 8—41,000 Hz (-3dB)!

Just to be clear, I was working for Nakamichi shortly before they went under, and that was back in the 90's. Those earbuds have as much to with Nakamichi as the banana I ate for breakfast this morning. Apparently anybody can slap the Nakamichi name and logo on anything these days without fear of reprisal. A quick check of the website reveals it hasn't been updated in nine years.

As far as the bottom on Everests goes, I'm pretty sure they were "voiced" with the Asian (mostly Japanese) market in mind, where bass into the low twenties and the proximity of neighbors don't mix well. They do however, respond EXTREMELY well to a bit of EQ in that region, as my friend and infrequent LH poster Greg Burns at Home Audio Sound (who has sold a prodigious number of Everests through the years) can attest to. I'm an absolute sub "freak" myself, living with a 2245 infinite baffle setup no less, but EQ'd Everests can do very well in the extreme bottom. They are one of the very few speakers I could live with without a sub (as long as EQ was an option).

[SEAWOLF97]

It is your room acoustics that is the problem. Can you provide with some measurements or what kind of measurements did you do?



As for the room, you or your friend might have a very poorly set up room with plenty of room nodes that can cancel or enhance low bass depending on your listening position or speaker placement. If you're listening in a demo room, chances are its a compromise.


Could be wrong, of course ...but to me it looks like OP is just quoting from the spec sheets, not from doing room measurements :dont-know:

[grumpy]

Lol. I was 1/2 expecting a rickroll... (@JeffW)

I have to wonder if any of the opinionators have heard a well setup pair
in a reasonable sized room.
Sub shmub. More bass (quite a personal thing) would not be for the
music's sake in my opinion. Thrilling perhaps.

[1audiohack]

Agreed, looks like spec shopping.

It seems to me that many people think a two-15" box must be a pro sub box. Since many consider an 8 or 10" a sub and a 6.5 with a 1" dome a full range, this is to be expected.

Barry.

[BMWCCA]

Just to be clear, I was working for Nakamichi shortly before they went under, and that was back in the 90's. Those earbuds have as much to with Nakamichi as the banana I ate for breakfast this morning. Apparently anybody can slap the Nakamichi name and logo on anything these days without fear of reprisal. A quick check of the website reveals it hasn't been updated in nine years.
Of course that's why I put "Nakamichi" in quotes. As the original owner of Dragon cassette deck, I find the history lesson included in the packaging of the current "Nakamichi" product line, laughable. Just like Harman touting the legendary JBL sound and engineering for their current Bluetooth crap.

As a 4345 owner, I can't imagine why any one would need a sub with a JBL system with two fifteens. I sure don't need a sub with one eighteen! And the specs for the 4345 show a frequency range of only "32Hz to 20kHz +3, - 6dB". Right!

Even as a sub, the 2245 in a B460 only shows 24Hz as the bottom in the JBL specs. Maybe I should get some ear buds if I want to enjoy full frequency response?

[Ian Mackenzie]

If you are born when the only hifi rag was Stereophile you would know you can't get low bass "Sock" from ear buds.

How can ear buds "flap" your jeans not to mention your clacka?

It's like turning up to an open class tractor pull and hoping to win with a Mini!

It ain't gonna happen.... Lol

[boputnam]

Virtually all the people that mattered bought a pair.:applaud:


...I can guarantee you, the Everest will get down to probably 20Hz at -2db with authority, given a proper amplifier and source, and provide you with soundstage and imaging that the earbuds could not touch.:dancin:



Now I seen an $800 pair of Sennheiser in-ears claim 8—41,000 Hz (-3dB)!I've tried them - the IE 800 is truly phenomenal, with no EQ correction on the Walkman or Droid. Truly staggering - but they are not noise cancelling.


As a 4345 owner, I can't imagine why any one would need a sub with a JBL system with two fifteens. I sure don't need a sub with one eighteen! And the specs for the 4345 show a frequency range of only "32Hz to 20kHz +3, - 6dB". Right!The 4345's, properly refurbished and deployed are a constant source of amazement. I cannot imagine ever moving to anything different. :nutz:

[BMWCCA]

The 4345's, properly refurbished and deployed are a constant source of amazement. I cannot imagine ever moving to anything different.
Maybe a pair of DD67000 when they hit under $15k? :dont-know:

[boputnam]

Maybe a pair of DD67000 when they hit under $15k? :dont-know:Dood... I'm quickly approaching the "no green bananas" age range...

[honkytonkwillie]

Could be wrong, of course ...but to me it looks like OP is just quoting from the spec sheets...

I'm rather sure it's a case of specs not matching expectations. The OP looks new here so we might give him the benefit of the doubt. Welcome to the forums, johnhere.

It's quite interesting how the 20-20kHz value, which started off as a generous estimate of the limits of hearing across a very wide range of measured humans; by rounding off each extreme to a single significant figure (the number "2"), became an easy-to-recall rule-of-thumb that eventually became enshrined as the de-facto minimum requirement for what sound recording and reproduction "should"be able to do.

JBL is fully capable of building speakers (or measuring them in such a way) to be able to claim 20Hz if they thought it was an important target to achieve for sound quality or marketing. With experience however, many of us decide on our own there's little practical difference between 20Hz and a few cycles higher - 24Hz? 28Hz? 30Hz?

[BMWCCA]

Dood... I'm quickly approaching the "no green bananas" age range...
Tell me about it. I could be at my 45th high-school reunion this weekend but I opted to spend time with a younger crowd!

[JeffW]

Lol. I was 1/2 expecting a rickroll... (@JeffW)



We aim to please :D

[Ducatista47]

In speaking of music, not soundtrack reproduction, I have to wonder if most newcomers have ever played 30hz on a test CD. I think everyone having the experience for the first time will be amazed how low it is. And wonder what of what musical use lower could possibly be. My 4345s are reputedly flat to 32hz. They satisfy my bass needs, what a surprise. They might need a sub when the alien battleship is blown up, but not for music.

I have a system good to about 40hz and I don't think it needs help either. I am sure if a 35hz system were cut off at 50hz few if any would notice. Now, about those supertweeters...

Addendum: I think my short answer, not that I was ever asked, is that reading speaker specifications is at best unhelpful in finding speakers that perform well playing music in real rooms. So your new speaker goes to 20hz but doesn't sound convincing? No surprise there, that was the most likely outcome. Many speakers do not sound convincing and almost all that advertise 20-20k with no further real qualifying data sound sub par. Playing down to 20 is in no way a criteria for how a speaker sounds. More like judging the handling of a car by how good the paint job is. In the end saying "But it doesn't go to 20" is remarkably similar in level of insight to "But it goes to eleven."

[Odd]

71292

[Ducatista47]

Of course, pipe organ - one pipe at least - and the last few keys of a piano have information below 30hz. So seldom used, so seldom noticed was my point. Another thing I was alluding to, given what most listeners use to play music and what they play, they would never have heard music below 40-50hz from acoustic instrument recordings. I enjoy having something flat down to 32hz, but a great deal of the time it is theoretical even for me. Do I hedge my bets? Of course! I sometimes use a sub with my 40hz speakers.

I am curious, it is a really nice graphic but what are the black areas in some of the bars?

[mech986]

Of course, pipe organ - one pipe at least - and the last few keys of a piano have information below 30hz. So seldom used, so seldom noticed was my point. Another thing I was alluding to, given what most listeners use to play music and what they play, they would never have heard music below 40-50hz from acoustic instrument recordings. I enjoy having something flat down to 32hz, but a great deal of the time it is theoretical even for me. Do I hedge my bets? Of course! I sometimes use a sub with my 40hz speakers.

I am curious, it is a really nice graphic but what are the black areas in some of the bars?

Black = subharmonics of the instrument?

I like the subjective comment on roughly where a perceived issue is in the frequency spectrum.

Would love to know where the following fall into the freq. range: chestiness, nasality, harshness, crispness, hash, etc. And I wonder a bit about whether transient attack and overhang play a role in the way a tone or music is perceived compared to a driver/speaker that has less or more of the attack.

[Hoerninger]

Test it :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8gjsefNYpE
____________
Peter

[dprice]

Maybe a pair of DD67000 when they hit under $15k? :dont-know:

That's only going to happen when, like the OP, the current owners learn they are overpriced and under performing. Spread the word ;)

[ngccglp]

Haha it's fun reading all these responses to a simple comment from John , which I read as " for the money that I'm paying for the Everest I want 20 hz. Nothing to do with ear buds or whether is there any real music at 20 hz or 32 hz is good enough etc.

i get it john

[Vahe Sahakian]

" for the money that I'm paying for the Everest I want 20 hz.

Well, if you can’t get 20Hz from Everest for all that money,don’t despair, get a B&W 802 D3, specs say frequency response is 17Hz to 28kHz!!!!!!!

Vahe

[speakerdave]

For music playback, if a speaker plays down to 20Hz or below and is not a subwoofer or does not include what is in effect a dedicated subwoofer, then it is almost a certainty that it is doing something else, something more important, poorly.

If you are truly a person who is going to be paying salon price or even street price for any K2 speaker you are not going to be whining about paying for a comparable subwoofer, if you want whale talk or those far left organ pedals. Ergo, somebody is blowing smoke up his own ___ .

This discussion has been done before in these forums at great length, in great detail, at a much higher level, fired up by a relevant person, i.e. someone who actually owned the speakers in question, and the thrust of his concern actually had more to do with the interface between audio engineering and marketing to potential buyers whose context is too highly conditioned by review reading and, what is worse, what their review-reading friends will think, and who therefore shop using their SPECtacles more than their ears.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

I am stupefied that at this point anyone even responds to this guy's posts

I mean absolutely flabbergasted that anyone still takes the bait

Just take two seconds and look at his post-thread history



Why?

Not cool. Very not cool.

Excellent question and point - I'd love to hear the answer

[4313B]

Excellent question and point - I'd love to hear the answerOne more time...
The low frequency response of the Everest II tends to integrate very well with the majority of the intended listening environments.
The high frequency response is a "requirement" of the intended primary marketplace - "if it doesn't do at least 40kHz then we won't even waste our time listening to it"

Given that the tuning frequency of the enclosure is around 30 Hz, the low frequency transducers will unload rapidly below that frequency. Most of the low frequency response around system resonance and below is from the vents. They are on the rear of the enclosure, this means that they will be somewhat attenuated in output compared to the 96 dB, W, m sensitivity of the dual low frequency transducers. So lets stick them in a corner and boost that vent action. That is very probably where they are going to end up anyway given the size of the rooms. I know! How about we tailor the low frequency response so that it interacts as ideally as possible in those rooms right out of the box! Yeah! That's the ticket! Anybody here understand the concept of boundary reinforcement? The concept of room rise and how low frequency "boost" occurs at higher frequencies in smaller rooms?

**** you ******* that think the specs need to say flat to 20 Hz... just **** off... seriously... Unless you have $60k and a desire to own these magnificent loudspeakers it just flat out doesn't pertain to you.

The performance of the system is superlative. Look the ************* word up if you don't understand its meaning... s-u-p-e-r-l-a-t-i-v-e There, I even spelled it out really slow for you...


Just take two seconds and look at his post-thread historyI'm fully aware of his post history as well as his PM's to me. My PM's are now shut off and he is on ignore.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

One more time...
The low frequency response of the Everest II tends to integrate very well with the majority of the intended listening environments.
The high frequency response is a "requirement" of the intended primary marketplace - "if it doesn't do at least 40kHz then we won't even waste our time listening to it"

Given that the tuning frequency of the enclosure is around 30 Hz, the low frequency transducers will unload rapidly below that frequency. Most of the low frequency response around system resonance and below is from the vents. They are on the rear of the enclosure, this means that they will be somewhat attenuated in output compared to the 96 dB, W, m sensitivity of the dual low frequency transducers. So lets stick them in a corner and boost that vent action. That is very probably where they are going to end up anyway given the size of the rooms. I know! How about we tailor the low frequency response so that it interacts as ideally as possible in those rooms right out of the box! Yeah! That's the ticket! Anybody here understand the concept of boundary reinforcement?

**** you ******* that think the specs need to say flat to 20 Hz... just **** off... seriously... Unless you have $60k and a desire to own these magnificent loudspeakers it just flat out doesn't pertain to you.

The performance of the system is superlative. Look the ************* word up if you don't understand its meaning... s-u-p-e-r-l-a-t-i-v-e There, I even spelled it out really slow for you...

I'm fully aware of his post history as well as his PM's to me. My PM's are now shut off and he is on ignore.
I don't know why you are talking to me this way?

Big disconnect with communication, maybe the better word would be meaning

I was only wondering why anyone (and like you like to say "anyone that matters") continues to take this guy's bait - his intentions are well documented and yet this most recent question has managed to generate TWO PAGES! I would expect a post or thread like this one to have a big fat "0" in the replies box? Guess I don't really understand Human nature?

I'd be willing to bet that whatever pleasure he gets out of this brand of trolling is intense right about now

I thought that my rhetorical request "I'd love to hear the answer" would have been self evident as for it's point, as is "johnhere"'s "Why?"

So there, now I've spelled it out for you

Sorry for the misunderstanding

Joe

[4313B]

I don't know why you are talking to me this way?I'm not, which is why I used quotes without names and didn't reply to you personally. ;)

Those that "matter" means the folks with $60k and the desire to own a pair. They are, literally, the only folks that matter. A bunch of whiny asses bitching on the Internet about specs are irrelevant. This has been going on since 2006 when the specs were first published. The specs match the intended marketplace and it isn't a problem in that context - the system functions as intended. Wow, ten years of this bullshit about the Everest II already? Time sure does fly!


I was only wondering why anyone (and like you like to say "anyone that matters") continues to take this guy's bait - his intentions are well documented and yet this most recent question has managed to generate TWO PAGES! I would expect a post or thread like this one to have a big fat "0" in the replies box? Guess I don't really understand Human nature?Agreed. I was thinking the same thing before I replied. My intense irritation got the best of me.

[Mr. Widget]

I debated posting as the original post shows a high level of ignorance on the subject of audio playback... the posting might stem from a genuine interest and ignorance or it may just be like the folks who offer $200 Corvettes on CL because they are bored.

I responded as I did to offer an alternative data point to the uninitiated Google searcher.

Wow... ten years. Time does fly! :D


Widget

[hjames]

Ain't no ability to achieve 20-20kHz +/-2dB for a $60,000 pair of speakers when my friend's $600 ear buds that can easily do that?

Why?

Not cool. Very not cool.

Just FYI - His entire 11 post arc on the site reads like a lesson in troll-baiting the folks here ...
plus a couple new "sock-puppets" seem to have arrived to add gravitas ...
Maybe waggonears?


Heather out!

[Joseph Smith Jr]

plus a couple new "sock-puppets" seem to have arrived to add gravitas ...
Heather out!
"sock-puppets" :confused:

Sad, very very sad :(

THREE pages now!

Joe

[hlaari]

I still don´t understand why people are still asking the same question why the new Everest models does not show in the information flat down to 20Hz!
everything matter about the room how the speaker will perform. I am sure in right room the new Everest model will play down to 20Hz

some said at the new B&W nautilus 801D3 (a great speaker) play down to 17Hz. I bet they will do that in best profile in great room




Ari

[JeffW]

I am stupefied that at this point anyone even responds to this guy's posts

I mean absolutely flabbergasted that anyone still takes the bait

Just take two seconds and look at his post-thread history



Excellent question and point - I'd love to hear the answer

He did seem to start up about the time Wagner went silent... ;)

[hjames]

Virtually all the people that mattered bought a pair.

Absolutely!
Its ludicrous to have folks pop in and "complain" about spec in gear they will never buy ...

John's not the market, hell, I'm not the market for Everest -
Harmonbadger don't give a $#it what non-buyers think ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg

[Ian Mackenzie]

+

I was not going to say it but l think we have a socket puppet or at least a troll who's only aim in life is to make us take the piss.

We had a similar incident some years back.

There is nothing to talk about.

Mr Widgetand 4313B have summed it up well.

This entire thread is only meant to waste our time.

Pls close this thread.

[grumpy]

Lol, I'd vote for a delete of the whole thing.

[boputnam]

I concur.

I'm going to close this thread until Mr. Widget get's a fair chance to review if there's anything of relevance before it's Deep Six'd...

:dont-know:

[Mr. Widget]

I considered deleting the very first post instead of posting... perhaps that would have been the right move. I guess I was hoping the idiocy of the post would be made clear through the thread and the embarrassed OP would rethink making such dumb posts in the future.

Then again look at the state of affairs in the "real world"... perhaps thoughtfulness has left the building.

Go for it Bo!


Widget