JBL speakers ain't no good for classical music?

[johnhere]

Hi folks, several friends warn me JBL is best for jazz & rock, classicals will sound like hell, I'm not sure about this.

[Doctor_Electron]

Hi folks, several friends warn me JBL is best for jazz & rock, classicals will sound like hell, I'm not sure about this.

I think that the characteristics of Classical Music, as well as those of JBL speakers, are "painted with a broad brush" by someone making that argument. I suggest you take a well recorded piece of classical, find a listener with a good system playing through some of the more excellent examples of JBL's. Then consider your own experience with that.

When I had, ca. 1973, AR 3a's near all four corners of the room with an AR amplifier driving a pair each, I could crank up the volume and handily dismiss the notion that they sucked for rock. Because they were "East Coast"?

Good thing I didn't know that at the time.

Happy Listening ! - "DE"

[Ian Mackenzie]

That statement applied to the Decade L36/ Century L100.

Not so the Pro 4315

[BMWCCA]

JBL speakers ain't no good for classical music?

Hi folks, several friends warn me JBL is best for jazz & rock, classicals will sound like hell, I'm not sure about this.

Sure, and Fords only work as taxi cabs!

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[DavidF]

Hi folks, several friends warn me JBL is best for jazz & rock, classicals will sound like hell, I'm not sure about this.

Ehhhh, what people say. I listen to symphonies, concertos, quartets, everything with my Array 1400 mock ups. No chesty males or shrieking violins, great soundstage, fantastic dynamics. All very well done.

[speakerdave]

'Nother one of those false binaries aka over simplifications. A better binary might be speakers for parties vs solitary meditative listener, i.e. dynamic mid-rangy vs compressed flat frequency response. Also, any edginess in the treble is merciless on violin, so paper or metal domes, metal diaphragms and horns can be a problem. Phenolic in AR domes and EV horns definitely made for a voicing that worked better for symphonic and chamber music. The JBL brand became associated first with a certain sound coming out of the fifties when the development of small three-way speakers came first in New England, and later with certain of its successful models. People cling to their categories. Why throw away a perfectly serviceable stress- and confusion-easing organizing principle and expose yourself to an unpatterned data field? Mix in a little cultural snobbery and Yankee vs. cowboy, and what you have is another ineradicable delusion.

[Earl K]

<<<<SNIP>>>>,,,, and what you have is another immovable delusion.

( That there is a ) Lovely Bit of Prose!

:)

FWIW, I listen to a set of custom Altec/JBL MTM's & they excel at Classical, Opera & Jazz ( mind you, I don't want my classics played through a Muzak filter ) .

[speakerdave]

( That there is a ) Lovely Bit of Prose!

:)



Thanks, but then I went and changed it!

[Ed Kreamer]

I'm sure that most of us here have gone into an audio salon (that's all that is left ) and heard something like "....oh JBL, well they are just PA speakers after all. what you really want are these English speakers, made by Englishmen who are so SUPERIOR to us.".......or something like it.
There have been some JBL's and Altec's in the past that were somewhat less than accurate, but then there are some other brands today that are somewhat less than accurate. The B&W 804d3 comes to mind. they have a rising mid and highs beginning at about 3k or so. As a classically trained musician I have played in many local orchestras and wind ensembles over the last 40 or so years, and my aged 4410,s sound just fine.
I have not heard any newer offerings from JBL, so I'm not qualified to comment on them. I did hear the LSR 6332 in a music store so it was hard to tell exactly what it sounded like.
So your friend is probably a victim of audio snobbery. Listen carefully and read Floyd Toole's book and you can find him on youtube. JBL's compare very well to the high price spread and cost thousands less.

[Mr. Widget]

So your friend is probably a victim of audio snobbery.Or the echo chamber.

Silver wire sounds bright, tubes sound mellow, mosfets sound tube like, vinyl sounds more real... all of these can be proved and disproved with the right examples, but a lot of people hear these phrases which sound reasonable and they get repeated over and over again.


Widget

[hsosdrum]

Accuracy comes in many flavors. Although we tend to think of accuracy as first being neutral frequency balance, equally (if not more) important is dynamic accuracy: the ability of a speaker to faithfully reproduce both the very large and very small volume contrasts that are a vital aspect of a musical performance. This is where JBL speakers have always excelled, especially at getting the smaller dynamic nuances (microdynamics) right. By that I mean (amongst many, many things) the texture of a finger against a guitar string, or the quality of breath as it passes over a flute's mouthpiece. Many speakers that are prized for having neutral tonal balance simply do not convey these subtle but vital aspects of a musical performance. For me, these are the things that transport me away from listening to a recording in my living room to being in the same space/time in which the music was created.

It has been my experience that all other things being equal, the more electrically sensitive a speaker is (the larger the percentage of electrical input power it converts into air pressure variations) the better it is able to convey these very small dynamic nuances. To me this makes intuitive sense: the less power that is required to get the speaker to move, the more it will be able to react to the very small input power fluctuations that represent these small dynamic nuances. This is especially true at lower listening levels. We've all heard speakers that didn't "come alive" until played at louder volumes. This is because they don't begin to reproduce the microdynamics until we feed a fair amount of power into them. High-sensitivity speakers like vintage JBLs don't need to be played loud to sound "real" because they're sensitive enough to get the microdynamics right at lower volumes.

[Wagner]

Hi folks, several friends warn me JBL is best for jazz & rock, classicals will sound like hell, I'm not sure about this.
Try this: listen to some speakers, JBLs included, and decide for yourself if you agree with their bias/opinions (and be sure to ask then: based on what do they say what they say?), then you'll be "sure" if you agree on their assessment or not

Oh yeah, and reading about how speakers sound (versus actually listening to them with your own ears) also "will sound like hell" and maybe even take you there, especially with "classicals"

It's been my experience that that is a better way to go than listening to what "friends" read and then burp back up; better to listen to the actual speakers (as in loudspeaker systems, not talkers) Almost as bad as making broad based indictments and forming prejudices based on magazine reviews (or what friends and internet know it alls have to offer)

What JBLs do these several friends own and can share a listening audition with you (or do they/have they owned and lived with any) to make such a proclamation? Can they demo some of them for you?

[Ed Kreamer]

hsosdrum
Accuracy comes in many flavors. Although we tend to think of accuracy as first being neutral frequency balance, equally (if not more) important is dynamic accuracy: the ability of a speaker to faithfully reproduce both the very large and very small volume contrasts that are a vital aspect of a musical performance. This is where JBL speakers have always excelled, especially at getting the smaller dynamic nuances (microdynamics) right. By that I mean (amongst many, many things) the texture of a finger against a guitar string, or the quality of breath as it passes over a flute's mouthpiece. Many speakers that are prized for having neutral tonal balance simply do not convey these subtle but vital aspects of a musical performance. For me, these are the things that transport me away from listening to a recording in my living room to being in the same space/time in which the music was created.



Yes indeed.

[BMWCCA]

Phenolic in AR domes and EV horns definitely made for a voicing that worked better for symphonic and chamber music.

But, I also love my JBL phenolic-dome tweeters! Some of my favorites. And the key is they can be more forgiving on poor recordings, which maybe is what the OP here is reflecting. Garbage in, garbage out.

[speakerdave]

But, I also love my JBL phenolic-dome tweeters! Some of my favorites. And the key is they can be more forgiving on poor recordings, which maybe is what the OP here is reflecting. Garbage in, garbage out.

Yes, I agree. I was referring, perhaps not explicitly enough, to the period, the sixties and into the seventies when I think JBL was acquiring its skewed reputation, before the L166, 4313 and L212.

Edit: Not sure what other ones there are.

[Vahe Sahakian]

Hi folks, several friends warn me JBL is best for jazz & rock, classicals will sound like hell, I'm not sure about this.


My speakers are DIY 4350 and I am strictly into classical, myexperience with these JBL’s are exact opposite of what your friends are tellingyou.
Well recorded hi-rez classical SACD’s sound spectacular, Pop& Rock and any highly compressed recordings sound just awful, with thesemonitors garbage in garbage out.

Vahe

[gibber]

...We've all heard speakers that didn't "come alive" until played at louder volumes. This is because they don't begin to reproduce the microdynamics until we feed a fair amount of power into them. High-sensitivity speakers like vintage JBLs don't need to be played loud to sound "real" ...

Welcome to a small club. We're three now. Judging from previous footprint, Barry (1Audiohack) is in our boat, i presume

My avartar tells you where i'm at so far, short/light coil - deep gap, light cone.
Just got a brace of K151's and will report on those "early" 18" a.s.a.p.
Charah,
Ralph

[1audiohack]

Welcome to a small club. We're three now. Judging from previous footprint, Barry (1Audiohack) is in our boat, i presume...Ralph

Your presumption is correct! :)
Barry.

[kelossus]

Stop listening to classical music.....Simple....

[johnhere]

What they said is Wilson and Magico do better than JBL in the case of classical music, but I ain't get no money to buy those Wilson. Only one of them told me JBL is good for classics, but he thinks PMC is certainly a better choice.

[JuniorJBL]

This is a very personal hobby so listening to some different speakers to get what you want is of the utmost concern.

With that said my JBL's play everything very well IMO. :D

[1audiohack]

I think it is pretty easy to make a violin sound good on a cone speaker and a sax sound good on a compression driver horn speaker. It is harder to do the inverse. There is no speaker that does it all best.

It is my experience and firm belief that the very well engineered speakers like 4365 and Everests do it all very well though.

Have fun while you are figuring out what you like.

Barry.

[Ducatista47]

This is a very personal hobby so listening to some different speakers to get what you want is of the utmost concern.

With that said my JBL's play everything very well IMO. :D
Since nearly all the distortion in an audio system comes from the speakers, auditioning speakers is a must. Listen to music you are familiar with and if possible with sources, and amps of similar power level to what you use at home.

My 4345s, while antiques, have no problem with Classical music. And they don't sound like Junk But Loud either.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Classical music is a very general term and it's a sweeping statement to just refer to JBLs

There are numerous varieties of classical.

The AR claim to fame was really the acoustic suspension principle that enabled a smallish box with descent LF extension.

The market likes small and AR were astute to corner the Jazz and classical music lover in New England.

This was along way from the mid west where country music in Naahville and Rock in LA and SF dominated.

The acoustic suspension principle was at a disadvantage in reproducing rock and country due to its lower efficiency.

But the relatively more sensitive JBLs and the poorer performing Souncraft while loud and punchy in the bass had pronounced mid range and a sometimes aggressive high frequency response.

The same division held true in the recording industry but it was acknowledged that horns were sweeter at very high levels than soft domes.

It's a myth that large loud monitors have to be all things to all people. They don't because the sound recording engineers know the characteristics of the monitor and they mix accordingly and they like familiarity.

In old studios in Memphis you can still find JBL 4320's and Altec 604 for this reason.

Back to the HIFI business in the past 15 years JBL has closed the gap on the two trains of thought with new technologies and listening evaluation techniques so that a loudspeaker can be both efficient and accurate.

My personal preference is for the 4435 over the AR and the JBL LRS6332 because the 4435 makes the other 2 sound like small speaker whether playing classical or rock music. The 9800 systems and more recent are significantly more accurate and dynamic than the vintage counterparts.

[hsosdrum]

It's a myth that large loud monitors have to be all things to all people. They don't because the sound recording engineers know the characteristics of the monitor and they mix accordingly and they like familiarity.

This. Right. Here.

The #1 most important characteristic of any studio monitor is the engineer's familiarity with the way it sounds. It does no good to record and/or mix on an unfamiliar monitor, no matter it's reputed quality, because you have no idea if what you're hearing is in your mix or is being caused by the speaker. That's why I use a pair of Klipsch Cornwall IIs that I've had for 35 years—I know exactly what they sound like on every conceivable type of sound, so I can tell if a problem I'm hearing is in my mix and needs to be fixed, or is a characteristic of the speakers and can be ignored.

[Ian Mackenzie]

But l guess we need to remind ourselves at home we are not engineers and the role of the loudspeaker is ideally accurate reproduction of any kind of music.

My personal view is that the 4350/4355 are accurate enough for classical music but they may not necessarily image as well as certain narrow fronted floor standing loudspeaker. Half the time imaging is a wank unless you listen with your head in a vice anyway.

They are in a different league to the L100's and the L150's of the 80's imho as they are flat and clean. You can trick them up with done enhancement like the CC crossover or even a Be diaphragm or a smith horn atop if you want more transparency (the law of diminishing returns applies).

If you want a big room filling presentation, low distortion and are not too fussed about imagining they are fine but would not compare to the HiFi diddle dee in terms of the last once of detail and transparency delivered by the 9900 or other recent soa JBLs but then again they are not a second mortgage either.

The compromise with efficiency is size so if you have a partner and l know my 4345 are destined for the boy cave, not the living room and l have no doubt the 4355s would be in the same boat.

The JBLs respond well to the best bi amp crossover you can afford (l recommend the First Watt B4)and or charge couple the passive crossovers. This will really close the gap in terms of the revealing the otherwise hidden low level detail that the JBL drivers can reveal.

[Ian Mackenzie]

In terms of comparisons to other domestic loudspeakers a bi amped JBL 43XX it's not by degree frankly or needs a double blind test. It doesn't and never will. The sheer scale and reverberant quality of the presentation is over whelming and starts where even hi end domestic loudspeaker start to fall over.

The Late John Eargle (who recorded numerous classical recordings) in his book is very matter of fact about loudspeaker requirements for playback at levels close to the original performance and presents some examples using JBL drivers in biamp configuration and amplification. Don Davis made similar recommendations in his red book on loudspeakers and referred to using 2 15 inch woofers per channel to ensure bass distortion at 50 Hz was not compromised.

The AR and for that matter any domestic loudspeaker would be having a meltdown with massive amounts of amp power to compete with the 4355 running 10 watts peak. The simple reason is the JBL is in the realm of 10 Db more sensitive so it needs only 1/10 the power of the AR. Then build in a 6 db crest factor when biamping which makes the power amp look like 2 x their rated power in terms of dynamic range. So 2 x 150 amps biamp per channel would look a 600 watt amp. The AR would be crapping itself at 100 watts with like 86 db sensitivity while the JBL is just going with only 10 watts for the same volume level.

If you did have the AR side by side its a total
No brainer and the AR would be on the nature strip.

I forget the expression in the USA but it's like Game Over Man, Game Over we've just had our arses kicked.

This is why the real vintage JBLs that Greg reminds us we should hang on to are still to this day highly sort after.

[bbug]

JBL 4301Bs are pretty good with Jazz and Classical music. Try it if you have a chance. ;)

[BMWCCA]

The Late John Eagle (who recorded numerous classical recordings) in his book is very matter of fact about loudspeaker requirements for playback at levels close to the original performance and presents some examples using JBL drivers in biamp configuration and amplification.

For those trying to follow along at home, I believe Ian meant to type "Eargle". :dont-know:

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yep

Thanks

Damn auto spell-edited original post

[timc]

What they said is Wilson and Magico do better than JBL in the case of classical music, but I ain't get no money to buy those Wilson. Only one of them told me JBL is good for classics, but he thinks PMC is certainly a better choice.

This translates rougly into:

I am afraid of the high dynamics in classical music and needs a speaker that won't reproduce them fully. However i want the illusion of dynamics so the PMC is fines since they exagerate the high frequencies (they really do. Check measurements).


My advice. Try to audition a pair of Arrays. Preferrable the 1400's. They are very nice speakers for any music.

[Dave M]

I think there are a few reasons why JBL doesn’t have an excellent reputation for playing back classical music.

1. Classical music listeners usually listen to the live music in a concert hall, where the hall reflection blurs the direct sound from the instruments. Most of the classical recording is recorded in this way, and the engineers add digital reverb even on chamber music. Classical music listeners don't really need to hear the sharp transient and they prefer soft transient speakers. ( ie. Tannoy, vibrating cone=waveguide blurs the high freq transient) JBL speakers tend to project the sound of the instrument in your face, which is considered to be unreal.

2. Most classical music are recored with only 2 microphones (+ additional solo mics), and the quality of the phase response is very important to reproduce the atmosphere. Historically, the phase response had been a weak point of JBL, because of of the horn depth. Also, some monitors (4343 series) had too many units on the large plane. Properly phase aligned JBL is a different story.

3. Classical listeners loves violins, and they prefer soft dome or something extremely hard like diamond that doesn't sound metallic. It is not untrue that most high frequency horn drivers tend to sound somewhat metallic, except Be diaphragm sounds less metallic.

4. Most of the time, classical music are played back quieter than the other music genre. JBL really shines when the music plays louder. So Stravinsky actually sounds great with large JBL, but classical fans listen to them rather quietly, sadly.

5. People see JBL logo at rock concert, and they think JBL is for rock music. This is actually how JBL has been marketed.

[Ed Kreamer]

I think there are a few reasons why JBL doesn’t have an excellent reputation for playing back classical music.

1. Classical music listeners usually listen to the live music in a concert hall, where the hall reflection blurs the direct sound from the instruments. Most of the classical recording is recorded in this way, and the engineers add digital reverb even on chamber music. Classical music listeners don't really need to hear the sharp transient and they prefer soft transient speakers. ( ie. Tannoy, vibrating cone=waveguide blurs the high freq transient) JBL speakers tend to project the sound of the instrument in your face, which is considered to be unreal.

2. Most classical music are recored with only 2 microphones (+ additional solo mics), and the quality of the phase response is very important to reproduce the atmosphere. Historically, the phase response had been a weak point of JBL, because of of the horn depth. Also, some monitors (4343 series) had too many units on the large plane. Properly phase aligned JBL is a different story.

3. Classical listeners loves violins, and they prefer soft dome or something extremely hard like diamond that doesn't sound metallic. It is not untrue that most high frequency horn drivers tend to sound somewhat metallic, except Be diaphragm sounds less metallic.

4. Most of the time, classical music are played back quieter than the other music genre. JBL really shines when the music plays louder. So Stravinsky actually sounds great with large JBL, but classical fans listen to them rather quietly, sadly.

5. People see JBL logo at rock concert, and they think JBL is for rock music. This is actually how JBL has been marketed.


Allow me to agree and to disagree:
1 True. However it depends on the hall, and where you are sitting. There was a story about AR's Roy Allison: he sat in a spot in Bostons Symphony Hall that had a null spot for the highs, and he designed his speakers to sound that way. According to my source it drove the other engineers nuts. in Seattle we have a great concert hall ( Benaroya ) that does not nullify the highs.

2. Not always, even though the best perspective is from the minimalist methods. Case in point, the Seattle Symphony is now being recorded using multiple mic's and on some recordings you can hear the signals go out of phase, and generally doesn't sound nearly as good as when the late John Eargle was recording them. It should be noted that all the recordings i have of the SSO Eargle used the 4410 and 4412 monitors.

3. Indeed. but the soft dome doesn't give the wave front the push it needs to give an SFZ the zap it needs for accurate reproduction. And while there is a possibility that metallic drivers to sound that way, I don't think that they always do. If they are adequetly damped anyway.

4. Not in my house, or any practicing classical musicians house whom I know, and I know quite a few. It was again John Eargle who said that classical music should be played back at realistic levels. That doesn't that people do though. And I agree that many don't. After all Beethoven can't be relaxing at fff. But then Beethoven isn't supposed to be relaxing.

5. Very true I think.

Well we're all different aren't we. My wife thinks that I listen to loud, but on a well recorded piece or really any piece it should be played at a realistic level.

Ed

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think the original perception comes from the uninformed who perhaps have only every heard one JBL or never heard a live classical performance.

The division of east versus west coast sound needs to be considered.

My own view is the east coast sound was largely the AR era where it was discovered that a small box with verylow sensitivity could bee made to produce extended bass with a heavy high compliance woofer (85 db. )

Nice HIFI sounding book shelf loudspeakers with cute scoft domes and Sensitivity in the Mid 80s fail to convey a realistic presentation when compared to a JBL studio monitor.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is wanking themselves or just does not know any better.

[Dave M]

Allow me to agree and to disagree:
1 True. However it depends on the hall, and where you are sitting. There was a story about AR's Roy Allison: he sat in a spot in Bostons Symphony Hall that had a null spot for the highs, and he designed his speakers to sound that way. According to my source it drove the other engineers nuts. in Seattle we have a great concert hall ( Benaroya ) that does not nullify the highs.

2. Not always, even though the best perspective is from the minimalist methods. Case in point, the Seattle Symphony is now being recorded using multiple mic's and on some recordings you can hear the signals go out of phase, and generally doesn't sound nearly as good as when the late John Eargle was recording them. It should be noted that all the recordings i have of the SSO Eargle used the 4410 and 4412 monitors.

3. Indeed. but the soft dome doesn't give the wave front the push it needs to give an SFZ the zap it needs for accurate reproduction. And while there is a possibility that metallic drivers to sound that way, I don't think that they always do. If they are adequetly damped anyway.

4. Not in my house, or any practicing classical musicians house whom I know, and I know quite a few. It was again John Eargle who said that classical music should be played back at realistic levels. That doesn't that people do though. And I agree that many don't. After all Beethoven can't be relaxing at fff. But then Beethoven isn't supposed to be relaxing.

5. Very true I think.

Well we're all different aren't we. My wife thinks that I listen to loud, but on a well recorded piece or really any piece it should be played at a realistic level.

Ed

Thank you for reading my long post. I agree with you. I was just guessing why JBL is considered not to be good for classical music "in general", so I understand my points would not apply to everyone, and of course, not all JBL products. Many new and vintage JBL are great for classical music.

I actually love to listen to classical music with my JBLs, and yes, I also play them louder than most people, I mean "at realistic levels". :)