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dennis j leisz
11-27-2004, 10:58 AM
Greetings, I am very pleased to report that I have purchased a pair of K2 M9500 speakers from a person in Norway:D . The speakers are in transit and should be arriving on the 3rd of Dec. I will be more than happy to provide any info the forum members desire, especially for the May project. Pics will be posted as soon as they are set up. I live in the Minneapolis area so if anyone is passing thru you are welcome to stop by and listen. I was giving some thought to loading them up and bringing them up to Dons in Winnepeg but the snowmobile and horse trails are currently closed due to bad weather. The trailer on the back of my snowmobile is too small for the load anyway. I will keep everyone posted as details emerge. Dennis

lfh
11-27-2004, 11:23 AM
Congratulations!!

:thmbsup:

We'll keep our fingers crossed that they'll arrive safely, and the condition is as expected (as is the sound, of course - but there's little doubt about that). If I were in your clothes, I'd be so excited that I'd have a hard time getting to sleep. We're (I'm sure I speak for everybody!) looking forward to see the pictures and read about your listening impressions!

:nutz:

Fredrik

4313B
11-27-2004, 12:01 PM
Excellent! :yes:

This is very exciting news indeed! :)

Guido
11-27-2004, 02:27 PM
Congratulations!

Cool :cool:

I just skipped my DIY M9500 project for another even more crazy one.

We'll see what your comments are.

Steve Gonzales
11-27-2004, 02:36 PM
yeah most of us are probably drownding in DROOL. What did you pay for them?

Earl K
12-02-2004, 03:38 PM
Nice acquisition Dennis :yes:

Hopefully, you'll soon be hearing your M9500(s) .

- regarding your initial post offering this system for R&D purposes ( okay! my interpretation ) ;

- I can think of a few "projects" for you to execute if you feel up to it . They should have Project May spinoffs.

- This is mostly predicated on you still having at least a pair of le14h woofers .
- I'd like to hear your observations on a few things - all with the purpose of adding to Forums members "personal experiences" when using "MTM" structures .

Some Thoughts:

(a) Replace the 1400nd woofers in the bottom ( 4.1 cu' ) cabinets with your le14h(s). I'd be interested in all your observations about any and all changes you may notice to the sonic landscape. One note ; both woofer models are operating in "underdamped system" - when used in this size of box. Also of interest, this volume is purported to be virtually the same as the effective volume in the 250ti .
- There should be positve spinoffs ( for MTM advocates ) if traditional woofers are found to give over ( say ) 80% of the resolution benefit when mated with a K2 style woofer operating in the upper enclosure .
- I'd like to hear if you think that imaging/resolution suffers ( and/or by how much )

(b) Replace the 1400nd woofers in the top ( 2.8 cu' ) cabinets with your le14h(s) and then run these smaller boxes as a pair on one chnnel. Retuning to a lower Fb might be nice - but not mandatory for this subjective test.
- I'd be real interested in how their bass performance stacks up against the 1400nd woofs operating in the larger boxes.

(c) I'd like to hear about your observations on "Imaging" when substituting in a pair of 500hz Edgar tractrix horns - instead of the stock JBL BiRadial .
This "wish" is obviously a bit off the wall and harder to immediately accomplish - but I think you can see the tangible benefits. Who knows - Dr. Bruce Edgar might be up for a temporary "loaner" if he feels he is going to see some sales for MTM projects . Obviously some crossover reworking would be necessary - but nothing here is impossible to the motivated .

(d) Some of this might be easier to execute with electronic crossovers since the M9500 passive crossover has likely had to deal with a rising midband response in the 1400nd that isn't present in the le14h - though this doesn't negate test (a) . It would effect test (b) more so .

(e) It would be nice to see some 1/3 octave pink noise studies of the above - if you can manage it .

What do you think ?

regards <. Earl K :cheers:

dennis j leisz
12-02-2004, 05:55 PM
Earl, Thanks for your ideas. The good news is that the speakers arrive tommorow, Friday, and my wife is out of town for the weekend; Heaven. Don't get me wrong but there are priorities. Once I set the speakers up and balance them in my listening room I will offer up my home site for experimentation. There are limits however. Taking apart a work of art such as the M9500 does seem a bit odd. But anything in the pursuit of science. I have a pair of McIntosh MC1201 mono blocks at the ready to push large quantities of air. We'll see. I will keep the forum posted as to the progress. Any and all are welcome to visit the Leisz household in Minneapolis. Our guest quarters are quite nice. My wife has removed more than one set of car keys from my nerd friends after a good nite of listening. Regards, Dennis

Earl K
12-02-2004, 06:32 PM
I will keep the forum posted as to the progress.

Okay, :wave:

Thanks Dennis ! <. Earl K :thmbsup:

Robh3606
12-02-2004, 06:47 PM
WOW

Can't wait to hear how they are!

Rob:)

Niklas Nord
12-03-2004, 01:43 AM
great, I wonder how they are compared with my s9500 :)

korgroenewoud
12-03-2004, 07:53 AM
Hi,

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/guitarra.gifhttp://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/guitarra.gifhttp://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/guitarra.gif (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=2#)

I have a pair of McIntosh MC1201 mono blocks at the ready to push large quantities of air. We'll see. I will keep the forum posted as to the progress. (Qoute)

With one of the finest power- amps in the wordld, your sound must be tremendous. Do you use the preamp C200?


Kor

dennis j leisz
12-07-2004, 12:36 PM
What a glorius day. The K2 M9500 arrived Monday afternoon . This was a few days later than planned. They spent the weekend in customs. It took three of us to unpack the two pallets and carry the speaker parts to my audio/video room for setup. It was very unfortunate that my wife was now home from her California trip. With each load we received an ever increasing amount of the Yukon stare. You know what I mean; cold as ice. Any way we assembled the three modules, put new batteries in the crossovers , connected the wires from the external crossovers and loaded up the soundtrack from Wag the Dog, Pushed start. It was and is the finest sounding JBL manufactured system I have ever heard in a home. As crystal clear and precise as I have experienced. Dynamic as well. They are very evenly balanced from top to bottom. Greg Timbers should be very proud. A fabulous piece of engineering. The low end extension is perfect to my ear. After an hour or so of listening I noticed that some of our art had been rearranged. The Yukon stares deepened. Sonically they exceeded my expectations. The only negatives are the very soft finish is easily scratched. I wonder if anyone knows how to secure a pint or so of this finish so I can restore them to like new condition. A back corner is showing slight damage during shipping.I will post photos shortly. Regards, Audioden

Earl K
12-07-2004, 12:46 PM
They are very evenly balanced from top to bottom.
Greg Timbers should be very proud.
A fabulous piece of engineering.
The low end extension is perfect to my ear. :rockon1: :rockon1: :rockon1:

:cheers: :yes: :cheers:

korgroenewoud
12-07-2004, 01:14 PM
Hello Dennis,

I wish you (and your wife) a very nice listening period.

Can you place some pictures of the M9500?


Kor

John
12-07-2004, 02:05 PM
Hi Dennis Congratulations on your purchase. When everything is tweaked and up to snuff i would enjoy a taste test. I am in the twin cities a couple times a month so it would be a breeze to stop in. I also might talk to Don about doing a road trip maybe next year when the arctic conditions subside.:D

korgroenewoud
12-07-2004, 02:26 PM
Hello,


G.T. recommends this system be bi-amped at some point for "full effect". ;)[/QUOTE]
These Mcintosh amps can handle that system all by themselves.
Bi-amping is not always the way to succes!!


Kor

Titanium Dome
12-07-2004, 04:42 PM
Excellent, and well worth the money, eh?

I've heard the K2 S9800 bi-amped and it was an amazing experience. JBL has some recommendations that include this:

Four identical amplifiers (or two dual channel units) may be used, although specialized low and high frequency amplifiers offer clear advantages. T h e P roject K2specialist dealer can recommend the amplification that will best suit individual needs. In all cases, the left and right amplifiers for each section must be identical. Make sure that the input sensitivity of the amplifier for each section is equal, or that input level controls are provided to maintain the proper low-to-mid/high balance. If two identical stereo amplifiers are used, one may he located near each loudspeaker and drive low and high frequency sections through short wire runs.

I did not hear the K2 S9800s driven conventionally without bi-amping, so I can't make a comparison. I was impressed enough not to ask the guy to rewire the system to satisfy my curiosity. It's definitely worth trying both ways. :)

4313B
12-08-2004, 08:41 AM
I just skipped my DIY M9500 project for another even more crazy one.D'oh! :screwy: :coolness:


The only negatives are the very soft finish is easily scratched. I wonder if anyone knows how to secure a pint or so of this finish so I can restore them to like new condition."No! They are Nextel which is illegal to paint in So. Calif. We had the enclosures painted in Arizona and shipped here for loading. We don't have anything to do touch-up."

See if you can get some of this Nextel Dennis.

non-glare and scratch-resistant Nextel ® finish

I guess they didn't use the scratch-resistant part on the M9500's?

http://www.nextelcoatings.co.uk/nextel.htm


Hello,

These Mcintosh amps can handle that system all by themselves.
Bi-amping is not always the way to succes!!While sometimes true, when the system designer says "It really comes alive when bi-amped." .....

Here is the loadout for the M9500 DX-1 card for those who are interested in such things. Note that - "It does not need the bass boost part because these things are really powerful in the low end."

dennis j leisz
12-08-2004, 10:12 AM
Thanks for the info Giskard, I will track this Nextel finish down. The listening sessions are getting better by the day. I will post some photos over the weekend. I need some assistence with unstacking the towers to better position for the photoshoot. My son has volunteered to come home from school to help.He also has my digital camera I found out this morning. The M9500 is a very clever design. I will try my best to capture the key aspects of the stucture and electronics from all different angles. Should be a fun weekend. I am planning on trying the biamp approach as well. Its hard to believe that they could sound any better that they already do. Dennis:D

boputnam
12-08-2004, 10:33 AM
With each load we received an ever increasing amount of the Yukon stare. You know what I mean; cold as ice. :yes: And I now recognize it as a quite useful metric (i.e. a positive indicator) of my serially improving audio system! :rotfl:


What a glorius day. Cool!

dennis j leisz
12-08-2004, 10:38 AM
Hi Bo, The ten inchers arrived in perfect shape. Thanks. I left you a glowing review in the feedback column. I'm considering the new LE10 , or the 2118 in a 3 way center channel between the M9500s". Still working on the design.Audioden

boputnam
12-08-2004, 11:12 AM
Hey, Dennis...

Don't forget - you promised some pics of those badboys many posts ago! :D

Ken Pachkowsky
12-08-2004, 01:30 PM
I am sure you are the envy of many forum members Dennis. Would love to see some pics and read your impressions as you tweak them.

Sure would love to A/B some of these more esoteric systems.

PS: I too have experienced (on quite a regular basis that cold and icy look)

Ken

herve M
12-08-2004, 02:04 PM
Good choice Denny :) congratulations !!

But patience, here picture from ebay, hifido..

herve M
12-08-2004, 02:05 PM
and:

herve M
12-08-2004, 02:06 PM
and the half (bass) :

boputnam
12-08-2004, 02:20 PM
PS: I too have experienced (on quite a regular basis that cold and icy look) Dood!!
What are YOU doing hanging around Dennis' wifey!! :bash:

Tom Loizeaux
12-08-2004, 05:19 PM
It's great to hear of your aquiring the K2s! We all share in your excitment. It's a great feeling to put together a system that impresses us with engineering, materials and attention to detail...only then to be bowled over when they start to play!
Please share you responses and feeling about these with the Forum here. Maybe it will generate enough interest for JBL to take notice.

Congratulations,

Tom

Ken Pachkowsky
12-08-2004, 06:02 PM
Dood!!
What are YOU doing hanging around Dennis' wifey!! :bash:
Be carefull BO!!!
You and I have a secret "remember?" :rockon2:

Ken

Mr. Widget
12-08-2004, 06:13 PM
Ken and Bo? I never would have guessed... and you both have such nice wives too.

Widget

boputnam
12-08-2004, 06:24 PM
You and I have a secret "remember?" :rockon2: Hell, dood, I exposed that some-time back!

Full Disclosure - see post numero Veinte y Cinco

Ken Pachkowsky
12-08-2004, 06:29 PM
Ken and Bo? I never would have guessed... and you both have such nice wives too.

Widget
Hmmm... I set myself up for that one!:banghead:

Ken

Ken Pachkowsky
12-08-2004, 08:38 PM
Hell, dood, I exposed that some-time back!

Full Disclosure - see post numero Veinte y Cinco
Hmmmm... Wrong Secret!

:hmm:= Bo wondering what secret Ken is talking about. By the way, ya have me wanting that damned pre-amp now. Damn you Putnam!

:p Ken

boputnam
12-08-2004, 08:43 PM
By the way, ya have me wanting that damned pre-amp now. Damn you Putnam! Ha! Me too!!
One here, another on the way... :rotfl:

Earl K
12-09-2004, 06:19 PM
Hi Dennis


Should be a fun weekend. I am planning on trying the biamp approach as well.

- Are you thinking of "biamping", this weekend or was that mentioned as future tense ? It would be nice to hear all about your biamping impressions . :thmbsup:

- Also, at some future point it would be great to see an RTA "screen capture", done on axis to the horn center , with fullrange pink noise fed into only the two woofers - ie fullrange pinknoise into the woofers , with the internal crossover bypassed .

- That RTA readout would greatly increase the local MTM knowledge base around here. For example ; it would be incredibly instructive to see what sort of midband "rise" a pair of 1400nd woofs possess ( 100 hz to a 1000hz ) within your MTM setup. This "rise" seems to be dealt with passively, by the M9500 lowpass. Since the M9500 filter settings are known - some extrapolated knowledge might be usefully applied to the redesign of the lowpass circuits in the Project May MTM . :hmm:

regards <. Earl K :cheers:

dennis j leisz
12-09-2004, 07:22 PM
Hi Earl and All,This weekend I intend to begin experimenting with some basic testing. A friend is coming over on Saturday with various test and measurement instruments to assist. So far I have only tried single wire and bi wire setups. Last evening we listened for about a half hour to music we were very familiar with. I then changed out the wire on one speaker for an A/B test. I used Audio Research Litzlink for the subs and Nordost Red Dawn on the hi freq. driver; A biwire setup. There was an audible difference in hi freq. clarity low end punch with better definition. We're not talking quantum leaps here, But enough of a difference that I would keep it hooked up this way. My friends at Audio Research are making Bi wire cables for me and I will pick them up tommorrow . I will try a tri wire setup . I do not have a crossover yet for biamping. Any suggestions?:smthsail: I have a new pair of McIntosh MC275s' I am anxious to use in biamp mode. My digital camera is being returned by junior so photos will shortly follow. As time permits I will provide any technical data I'm capable of. Someone inquired earlier as too which preamp I'm using. I'm playing around with three; Audio Research Ref2 mkII, McIntosh C2200 and a McIntosh MX135 pre/processor. I'm having some fun once again.Regards, Dennis

Mr. Widget
12-09-2004, 08:33 PM
I do not have a crossover yet for biamping. Any suggestions?

First choice would be the PassXVR-1 http://www.passlabs.com/preamps/xvr1.htm

Second choice would be from Marchand http://www.marchandelec.com/

I recently heard the DEQX, and while I have not been an advocate of digital, this unit is amazing. It is a three way crossover (or two way), preamp, room correction, and speaker correction. Yes, even the M9500 could be corrected a bit. ;)

http://www.deqx.com/dsp-product/PDC26P-Preamp.html

Keep the reviews coming!

Widget

Earl K
12-10-2004, 05:24 AM
Hi Dennis


I do not have a crossover yet for biamping. Any suggestions? Well, Giskard has posted the necessary RC values for the M9500 "personality card" in the quite workable DX1 ( which is hard to obtain ) - you could look around for one of them. The given RC values will set the "poles" to the designed frequencies .

I would't rush into the purchase of any electronic crossover for a K2 product. I doubt if a typical crossover, having only a single crossover area ( point ) will suffice in your K2 case.

As an example; a typical design "trick", found in the lowpass area, of most K2 stuff, is the implementation of multiple slopes/curves, all executed through quite "creative" pole-spreads ( your low-pass is a 3 pole type ).This is done to essentially "flatten the LF response" before actually implementing the crossover point. I did a low-pass "points" workup from the LC values posted in a M9500 schematic - the results are quite intriguing . Into a 3.6 ohm load ( and if my math/calculator is right ) , the lowpass portion of the M9500 has turnover points set at approx; 136 hz, 790hz and 950 hz ( all for a 650hz lowpass ??? ). Take these frequencies with a grain of salt - since I don't know the actual operating (AC ) impedance of the woofer circuit . The point is to notice the abnormal "pole-spread" .
These ( quite baffling) results are the reason I suggested you run pink noie through the woofers ( bypassing the lowpass ), to begin to get a handle on what passive EQ is actually being applied inside your M9500 network. An RTA curve will give some indication of the "true" response of those woofers and provide a benchmark, to proceed from . "Before & After" comparisons would tell some of the story .

Marchand, do make some crossovers that would allow for the necessary ( creative ) pole spreading.

regards < Earl K

PS , Oh I forgot to mention that the HiPass portion of your network is 2-Pole ( or approx. 12db per octave ). So, when researching specs. on various electronic crossovers for your M9500 - I would make sure any prospective crossover has the capabilities to execute all of these multiple pole ( spreading & number ) capabilities/tasks . Again, Marchand comes to mind .

Tom Loizeaux
12-10-2004, 07:35 AM
Earl,
What a great post! I love this forum.

I wonder why JBL hasn't come out with a crossover/ crossover set-up to optimize these K2s? Back in the '70s and '80s JBL made up crossover cards for use in their 5235 crossovers that were optimized for each of their high end studio monitors. If I had worked as an engineer on these, I would certainly have wanted to give the ability to correctly bi-amp these to the K2 customers... (and sell more JBL gear in the process).

Tom

Don McRitchie
12-10-2004, 07:45 AM
They did with the DX-1 and specific "personality" cards for the different K2 systems. Search this forum for that term and you should find lots of background. Unfortunately, demand was very low so that they are no longer in production and are exceedingly rare.

4313B
12-10-2004, 07:51 AM
Unfortunately, demand was very low so that they are no longer in production and are exceedingly rare.Yeah, I guess the people who think biamping is hogwash outnumber the people who don't.

Fortunately a person can build their own DX-1 with a bit of effort. Like Earl says though - just send the card information to Marchand and have them build it. The low pass is active and the high pass is passive. Marchand should be able to take the card information and construct the proper voltage drives. The main benefit in biamping the M9500 is that the 1400Nd "doesn't like inductors".

Don McRitchie
12-10-2004, 07:58 AM
The following question is asked out of ignorance on my part. I infer that the multi pole approach is a means of effecting EQ in the driver response. If so, why not just apply EQ directly since most electronic cross-overs have his feature? Is it an issue of analog vs digital? I know the feature rich electronic cross-overs are digital due to the ease of implementing signal processing in the digital domain. Is this multi pole approach just a means of doing something similar in the analog domain?

Don

Earl K
12-10-2004, 09:03 AM
I infer that the multi pole approach is a means of effecting EQ in the driver response.

- Yes, your understanding ( or some of it ) is correct. It's implementation is somewhat akin to using the broad tonal shapings of the bass and treble sections , as found on a hifi preamp.

- The "poles" in question are already present within any passive crossover. A "pole" is just another name for a passive "element or component". A 6 db crossover has a single "pole" or "component/element".

- If the desired filter is a "lowpass", then the single component ( pole ) is an inductor (L). A 12 db crossover has 2 connected LC components/elements ( or poles ) . An 18 db/octave crossover has 3 poles ( LCL elements ). etc. ("C" is the capacitor )

- These poles must be present to create the desired crossover slope. The creative circuit designer can ( and obviously sometimes does ), use these existing poles to create a bit of broad-band "EQ shaping" before the filter forms the circuit into its final slope/shape , down into the "Stop-Band" .

- Moving the poles about - in relation to each other while trying to maintain a 3 db down point at the chosen point, is definately an art. Move them too close together and they form a resonant circuit / move them far apart and they'll filter independant of each other .

- Once the passive crossover isn't there - then any compensatory (speaker ) EQ needs will have to come from somewhere. At this point, "somewhere" becomes the electronic crossover if it has this capability .



If so, why not just apply EQ directly since most electronic cross-overs have this feature?

- Actually, most electronic cross-overs don't have this type of EQ easily accessible .


Is it an issue of analog vs digital?

No, not really, its more an issue of the basic filter topolgies as implemented in the available, commercial products. Most electronic crossovers just don't have the ability to "cascade" the EQ sections to give these sorts of asymmetrical slopes. Only certain (rare) types of crossovers ( usually using "Sallen-Key" based topolgies ) are setup to afford this flexibility. Typically, crossovers that set the crossover point through plugin cards, might offer this capability of implementing these asymmetrical-slopes ( for example; the PassXVR-1/IanMacs DIY, JBL 5235 , DX-1, Marchands ). Analog crossovers whose filters are contructed via the "State-Variable" circuit topolgy, cannot very easily offer this flexibilty ( for example - newer Ashly(s) use State-Variable filters ) .


I know the feature rich electronic cross-overs are digital due to the ease of implementing signal processing in the digital domain. Is this multi pole approach just a means of doing something similar in the analog domain?

Many DSP based crossovers are just as handcuffed in the actual implementation of their powerfull features . Why ? The DSP "programmer" builds up a concept ( or Macro/Interface ) that is based on an emulation of some analog model. If he/she copies a limited "model" then that is the straight-jacket the user must live with ( DBXs' - DriveRack comes to mind ).

- Since cascading single pole sections is a pretty rare event in the line-level analog world - you can bet that this rarity has been emulated in a large percentage of available DSP devices .

- So, IME, for the casual user, its very hard to shop for a DSP based device. All the glizt and glamour of the "Product Pull-Sheets" usually mask some interface deficiency the user won't discover until its' too late . It's best to download the units manual in pdf form ( if available ) and then study it religiously - and then ask lots of questions before buying .


Does this make any sense ? If not, I'll try and rewrite it to be more succinct .

regards <> Earl K

dennis j leisz
12-10-2004, 10:25 AM
The first shots of the M9500s' in place .Dennis

Ken Pachkowsky
12-10-2004, 10:50 AM
Dennis

Where do you park the forklift for moving the rack around?:D

PS: Damned nice!

Ken

Mr. Widget
12-10-2004, 11:03 AM
Dennis,

I assume you are not 7' tall. The M9500s are not as physically threatening as I pictured in my mind! They actually look quite passable in a domestic setting, given the right domestic setting. Thanks for the photos and thanks for sharing!

Widget

John
12-10-2004, 11:38 AM
Hey Earl make sure someone calls up the army and let them know!!!:help:

korgroenewoud
12-10-2004, 11:46 AM
Hello,

This must be the ultimate experience.

All that discussion about biamping. Just try it. You have the possibility to do that. Put the 1201's on the low end and the MC 500 at the top end.


Kor

dennis j leisz
12-10-2004, 02:25 PM
This is getting more fun by the day. I just finished tri wiring the speakers with very good quality wire. Detail and resolution improvement. I also took a few measurements. Widget, I too was a bit surprised by the size. The JBL photos made them look 6ft tall. Thats why I put myself in the photo; a reference at 5'10. The speakers are comprised of three cabinets. The bottom cabinet is 29" h. The center horn is 7.25" h. The top cabinet is 18.625" h. Total height 55".The width is 25.125". Depth 16". The drivers are on center and are spaced 24.75" apart ,with the horn in the middle. The horn openning itself is 19.625" wide. The ports are 2.75" dia. and are all different lenghts according to my ruler. One is 8.25" while another is 8.5". If anyones interested I will open the crossovers and take a few pics. More to follow over the weekend. Regards, Dennis

4313B
12-10-2004, 02:27 PM
The ports are 2.75" dia. and are all different lenghts according to my ruler. One is 8.25" while another is 8.5".Which ports/ducts measure what? Lower left port/duct is? Lower right? Etc.

dennis j leisz
12-10-2004, 02:44 PM
I found a more accurate measuring tool, other than my eyes, and carefully measured the port lenghts . They are all four the same at 8.375" . My mistake. The ports are secured in the back of the baffle with the fronts nicely rounded. Excuse me now. I have to go listen to a new copy of Florence Hendersons "Song of Norway" cd. I'll bet my Bing Crosby and David Bowie singing Christmas duets will also be a hit.

Earl K
12-10-2004, 05:33 PM
Nice Dennis !

Again , Congratulations!

regards < Earl K

PS; oh yes, thanks for the pics . :cheers:

Earl K
12-10-2004, 06:07 PM
Hi John,


Storm is on the way!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Earl make sure someone calls up the army and let them know!!! :help:


Yep, As an expatriate "Westerner" , I could only hang my head in shame . :slink:

And I couldn't even help vote out "Mayor-Mel", since I actually reside north of the GTA . :sleigh:

That and too many other "stunts", eventually cooked his political goose, ultimately, the T.O. voters finally "retired" him. :dancin:

regards <> Earl K

boputnam
12-10-2004, 06:29 PM
Dennis...

Thanks for the pics, and for hiring that movie actor to pose with your K2's. No-one here looks like that - COME ON!! :rotfl:

Guess you and Widget have some catching-up to do - we now need a "Velvet Curtain" Forum... :coolness:

I look forward to your reports as you work through the set-up with all the great ideas you've been given. Lucky boy... :yes: (whatever you look like!)

John
12-10-2004, 09:36 PM
Ya And posing with that Hells Angels T-shirt on didnt help!!!:bomb:

Dave Zan
12-13-2004, 10:50 PM
Many DSP based crossovers are just as handcuffed in the actual implementation of their powerfull features . Why ? The DSP "programmer" builds up a concept ( or Macro/Interface ) that is based on an emulation of some analog model. If he/she copies a limited "model" then that is the straight-jacket the user must live with ( DBXs' - DriveRack comes to mind ).

- Since cascading single pole sections is a pretty rare event in the line-level analog world - you can bet that this rarity has been emulated in a large percentage of available DSP devices .

- So, IME, for the casual user, its very hard to shop for a DSP based device. All the glizt and glamour of the "Product Pull-Sheets" usually mask some interface deficiency the user won't discover until its' too late . It's best to download the units manual in pdf form ( if available ) and then study it religiously - and then ask lots of questions before buying .


Excellent summary of the situation that I just slowly worked out for myself!

So I don't "reinvent the wheel" _twice_ does anyone know of a DSP X/over where it is possible to specify the DSP code at a low level?

One option seems to be a PC sound card. I know the DSP maths but not the implementation specific details that are such a time waster. Any one checked this out

4313B
02-17-2005, 05:54 PM
Dennis, as per your request from G.T. :)

You can see why he suggested getting the connectors and making your own cards with larger traces spaced further apart. ;)

4313B
02-17-2005, 05:57 PM
Here's this information again

pasadena
02-18-2005, 11:33 PM
Dennis,

I'm happy to loan you a set of my DX-1 hf/lf cards for reference and testing.

As these cards are setup for XPL-200's you can plug them into your DX-1 and test them to drive your XPL-200's.

As you have such an excellent range of gear at your disposal I'd be interested how the XPL-200's perform with and without the DX-1 plugged using 4 mono amps if possible.

Let me know how you go? :)

Cheers
Pasadena

linear
05-11-2005, 02:00 PM
If anyones interested I will open the crossovers and take a few pics. More to follow over the weekend. Regards, Dennis

Did anyone ever follow-up on the details of the passive crossovers that come with the M9500 system. I know that active cross is recommended, and as a result, there was signicificat discussion and info (schematics, values, PCBs) on that approach.

I'm curious about those "massive" external boxes containing the N9500 networks. They look like they could be the "creme de la creme" of passive crossovers. It would be interesting to see the particulars of a JBL "cost no object" approach (relative to the K2 S9800 circuit). Anyone have any details?

regards,

Linear

4313B
05-11-2005, 02:34 PM
Maybe Dennis will shoot some pictures for us when he comes back.

Here's the voltage drive:

Not quite as "involved" as the K2-S9800.

ngccglp
10-25-2018, 12:04 AM
Finally I landed my dream JBL...

Bow to the Phantom Lord...

82602

pos
10-25-2018, 01:04 AM
Wonderful!
I really like the industrial look and massive impression these speakers enforce :)

ngccglp
10-25-2018, 03:18 AM
Hi Pos,

i was using 4350A before these. There is a sense of speed and tautness in the bass that the 4350A cannot match. The 1400Nd does hit you in the chest like a sledgehammer. The other major difference is the imaging, I Guess it boils down to the 2 way versus 4 way advantage.

Currently driving them with ATC P2 power amp.

Mr. Widget
10-25-2018, 04:07 PM
Congratulations!

Rare but cool beasts. Tell us more after you've had more time with them.


Widget

1audiohack
10-25-2018, 08:04 PM
Super cool!

I have one of those horns and drivers and it sounds very nice. I bet the whole system is awesome.

Congrats!

Barry.

Titanium Dome
10-25-2018, 08:28 PM
Hey! Hey! that's an impressive looking pair, and the 1400ND is a fantastic beast. Congratulations!

ngccglp
10-25-2018, 11:15 PM
Thanks guys.

Its a beast indeed, i've been playing with it for the last week and realised that it could swallow up the ATC P2 and more. At 4 ohms the P2 is 450 watts. I can feel the M9500 wanting more. I read somewhere that the recommended power is 800 watts. Would consider passive bi-amping with another P2 in the future, with the M9500X network it would be super convenient.

My recent JBL history included 4345 then 4350A. With the M9500, the immediate impression is that everything tightens up. bass and drums sounds faster, the kick in the bass department is a lot more pronounced, and bass lines can be easily followed. I'm really impressed with what JBL did to the compression driver and horn, it does not sound like a horn even at insane playback levels. I can really crank out Metallica without fear.

I see many M9500 owners adding tweeters. As of now I do not feel the need as yet as most of my test music sounded absolutely perfect to me ears and I do not feel anything is missing.

Cheers.

martin_wu99
10-26-2018, 02:44 AM
Congratulations!
Is it necessary that M9500 need a UHF like S9800/S9900?

Robh3606
10-26-2018, 07:40 AM
Nice! Glad you were able to get a pair in such nice shape.

Rob:)

ngccglp
10-26-2018, 08:33 PM
Hi Martin,

i read somewhere that adding a tweeter might cause the speakers to lose the IET benefits. Right now the imaging is really good and I do not wish to lose that. When I spread the speakers wide apart the image is still dead centre and solid. Amazing.

Hi Rob,

the only down side is that the nextel finish leaves behind many hand and fingerprints that cannot be removed. The good thing is that the woofers looks spanking new. And I know the foam surround are new. So it will need some running in.

martin_wu99
10-27-2018, 07:31 AM
Hi Martin,

i read somewhere that adding a tweeter might cause the speakers to lose the IET benefits. Right now the imaging is really good and I do not wish to lose that. When I spread the speakers wide apart the image is still dead centre and solid. Amazing.

Hi Rob,

the only down side is that the nextel finish leaves behind many hand and fingerprints that cannot be removed. The good thing is that the woofers looks spanking new. And I know the foam surround are new. So it will need some running in.
What is IET?:confused:
I think the most important thing of a HiFi system is balance! adding a UHF to M9500,of course will break the balance,but you can adjust it,untill it reaches a new balance.
I auditioned a set of S9500 which added 077 on it at local audiophile's home, it gives more details and airy indeed.
I suggest you may add JBL 045Be UHF,but how to position it on M9500 is a big problem.
We all noticed that today's JBL speaker all have UHF,such as S9900/66000/67000,it is a trend for modern audio format.

ngccglp
10-28-2018, 01:23 AM
Hi Martin,

indeed, and I think the JBL team did achieve the most optimal balance in the M9500. Adding anything might just ‘tilt’ the balance. I think users of S9500/M9500 would have to accept that they are not 9900/67000 and enjoy them for what they do extremely well and not worry about what they are missing with the super tweeters.

I had Tannoy Westminster Royal before, and tried adding the recommended Tannoy ST200 super tweeters. At the end I felt that it took away some of the coherence and imaging and depth from the excellent dual concentric driver.

There’s an interesting thread on Imaginary Equivalent Tuning (IET).

Cheers.

martin_wu99
10-29-2018, 11:19 PM
Hi Martin,

indeed, and I think the JBL team did achieve the most optimal balance in the M9500. Adding anything might just ‘tilt’ the balance. I think users of S9500/M9500 would have to accept that they are not 9900/67000 and enjoy them for what they do extremely well and not worry about what they are missing with the super tweeters.

I had Tannoy Westminster Royal before, and tried adding the recommended Tannoy ST200 super tweeters. At the end I felt that it took away some of the coherence and imaging and depth from the excellent dual concentric driver.

There’s an interesting thread on Imaginary Equivalent Tuning (IET).

Cheers.
If a product has defect why we tolerate it and not to improve it only in order to keep it original? :dont-know:
Since you'v just got your M9500,enjoy it first,perhaps after some time you may have some ideas:D

ngccglp
11-04-2018, 01:58 AM
If a product has defect why we tolerate it and not to improve it only in order to keep it original? :dont-know:
Since you'v just got your M9500,enjoy it first,perhaps after some time you may have some ideas:D

Haha Martin, it's interesting to imagine if you have mentioned this to GT when the M9500 was first released... The product has defect... ;)

Earl K
11-04-2018, 02:59 AM
Hi Martin,

indeed, and I think the JBL team did achieve the most optimal balance in the M9500. Adding anything might just ‘tilt’ the balance. I think users of S9500/M9500 would have to accept that they are not 9900/67000 and enjoy them for what they do extremely well and not worry about what they are missing with the super tweeters.

I had Tannoy Westminster Royal before, and tried adding the recommended Tannoy ST200 super tweeters. At the end I felt that it took away some of the coherence and imaging and depth from the excellent dual concentric driver.

There’s an interesting thread on Imaginary Equivalent Tuning (IET).

Cheers.

Hi ngccglp,

Congratulations on a great acquisition!

If I might ask you ( & since you've previously had Tannoys ), I'm curious how you're finding the imaging capabilities of your new M9500's ( specifically their ability to convey depth ) ?


:)

Champster
11-04-2018, 05:16 PM
Congrats Dennis! I've always loved the way those look. Never heard 'em but I'll bet they are fabulous.

ngccglp
11-04-2018, 09:58 PM
Hi ngccglp,

Congratulations on a great acquisition!

If I might ask you ( & since you've previously had Tannoys ), I'm curious how you're finding the imaging capabilities of your new M9500's ( specifically their ability to convey depth ) ?


:)

Hi Earl,

as you can see from the photo of my listening area, I do not have the space to pull out the M9500 from the rear wall, as such I may not be able to give an accurate assessment of their ability to convey depth.

However, the M9500 images very well and sounds seems to be emanating from all around (wall of sound) rather than from the speakers. It does a very good job at separating every instruments, and you can follow each instrument quite easily.

The Tannoys are marvellous speakers, if there’s such a thing as ‘beautiful sound’, I would use it to describe the Westminster Royals. At the end, I sold it because it does not favour pop rock music with its rear folded horn design playing below 300 hz.

martin_wu99
11-07-2018, 03:40 AM
Haha Martin, it's interesting to imagine if you have mentioned this to GT when the M9500 was first released... The product has defect... ;)
Becase it was designed in 20 years before:D