Another sad day for JBL

[gtimbers]

JBL (Harman Luxury) laid off 3 more employees yesterday. Their seniority totaled over 70 years. The big hit was Jerry Moro. Jerry's work is legendary and his transducers have been featured in most of my designs for years. He also has done transducers for Revel, JBL automotive product, some really fine subs used by Synthesis and JBL Pro just to name a few of his many, many accomplishments over the years. His latest products, not yet to market, are a pair of stunning in wall systems using a compression driver and horn. They still fit into a standard 4" wall. I worked with him on these products a bit before my demise. They are absolutely outstanding.

So this brings an end to any world class engineers at JBL. Jerry and I were the last two. There are only 3 guys left and although they are competent, they are no where near the knowledge, success or capability of what they just dumped. The senior Model maker left last week to go elsewhere which means that Consumer no longer has any model making capabilities, either.

It appears that this is the end for JBL was we have known it. The Lab equipment is in total disarray with much of it not working properly. If it weren't for Professional's need for and use of the lab, I doubt that it would function at all. There will be no more internal transducer development, no world class engineers, no more internal model making capabilities and no more real JBL product. It is just going to be me-too product copied from somebody else and designed and manufactured in China or equivalent.

Hold on to your Vintage products and hope that you can find a way to get parts when things wear out. None of this will involve Harman any longer!

[1audiohack]

Grrrrr.

How this makes me feel is not fit to print.

My appreciation for you guys is sincere. I cast my vote with my wallet.

What was it Ronald Reagan said? I didn't leave that party, it left me. Yup.

My best to you and Jerry.

Barry.

[pos]

So sad, so stupid...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34253-Second-Annual-Lansing-Heritage-Awards&p=347332&viewfull=1#post347332


Jerry has acquired 6 patents, with 2 more pending, and he has received many product awards. Here's a list of his more notable low, mid and high frequency transducers designs (with associated systems).

List in reverse chronological order:

JBL transducer models (and systems): 1501AL-2 (Everest DD67000), 1501AL-1, 045Mg (Everest DD65000), 100FE-12, 139Nd (S3900), 2216Nd (S4700 and JBL Pro M2), 540J, 553H, 553J, 565J, 580J, 5110G, 5120G (Studio 5 series), 1501FE (4365), 2213Nd-2, 105H-1, 054ALMg (4312E), 2213Nd-1, 105H-2, 054ALMg-1 (4319), 1500AL-1, 476Mg (K2 S9900), TS6H, TS6J, TS8J (TS Series systems), LE14H-4 (S4600), 1501AL, 476Be (Everest DD66000), Synthesis 6 (Synthesis SAM3VA and SAM3HA), Synthesis 8 (Synthesis SAM2LF), W1500H (HB5000, 1500 Array Subs), Array 8, Array 8C and Array 10, 175Nd-3 (Array Series), 1500FE (4338 and 4348), 2213Nd, 105H (4312D and 4318), 1200FE-8 (4428 and 4429), 1200FE-12 (K2 S5800), 1500AL (K2 S9800), LE14H-3 (Performance Series PS1400, Array 1400), 1200H (4425MKII), Studio10, Studio8, ME60JS, ME50JS (SVA Series systems), Century1200, Century500 (Century Gold), 726GS (Synthesis Two).

JBL Car Audio subwoofers and component systems: 660Gti, 560Gti, Power Series, GTO Series, C508Gti, C608Gti, W10Gti, W12Gti, W15Gti, GTX Series, 08Gti, 400Gti, 404Gti, 408Gti, 500Gti, 504Gti, 508Gti, 600Gti, 800Gti, 1000Gti, 1200Gti.

JBL Systems developed: HB5000 Powered Subwoofer System, TS600 system, Synthesis S1S-EX

Revel Transducer models (and systems): B110LDW, B112LDW (B110 and B112 Sub system), RP18G (Ultima Rhythm II), RU15G, RU15R (Ultima Sub 30 and Performa B15a), C32R-4, C32R-5, F32R-5, F32R-6, M22R-6 (Performa Series), RP10GS (Performa F30), RU5G (Revel Studio) Revel 15 (Ultima Gem Sub 15).

Infinity Transducer models (and systems): B380 (HPS1000 powered sub), Omega12 (Omega system).

Let's hope his knowledge and talent will not be wasted (and same goes for you Mr Timbers!).

[JeffW]

This thread needs a theme song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHh0V7UjVXI

[hjames]

Right - this kind of garbage is why I sold off all my legacy JBLs -
its one thing to pay a premium for gear you are proud of,
but when the brand is no longer supported by Corporate - well ...
Harmin' Corporate can go pound sand, in my book.

Indeed Greg, another very sad day for JBL fans worldwide ...

[grumpy]

Nuts and nuts.

[bubbleboy76]

Please wake me up from this nightmare!

[LowPhreak]

I suppose no one is surprised after the childish stunt Harmin' pulled on Greg. This was the other shoe waiting to drop.

Nice going, imbeciles. *1-finger salute

[badman]

*Sigh*.

QSC seems to be doing a fine business- maybe they would like a couple old-school bigbrains to get into a new space and refine existing?

[1audiohack]

Right - this kind of garbage is why I sold off all my legacy JBLs...

I feel the opposite. Sadly now it is possible that I have some of the best stuff JBL will ever make.

Barry.

[jpw]

Right now I am shocked, angry and also sad for those who have lost their jobs. I feel cheated of what brilliant speakers might have come our way in the future that we will now not know. How incredibly short sighted of Harman. Even if down the road they realize their error and try to re-hire, engineers like Greg and Jerry don't grow on trees. Will talented people even want to work for Harman in the future given they way they treat their employees? Right now I am waving at Harman with out all 4 of my fingers.

[4313B]

Why am I not the least bit surprised...

They're such a thoroughly disgusting organization.

[300_Summit]

Sad to say, but things like this happen across Corporate America everyday. Those with YEARS of experience get booted, and they bring in unqualified personnel and pay them peanuts. It's all about the bottom line with these Corporate types. They could care less about the quality of the product they put out. As long as it makes a profit.


Lamont

[4313B]

"100 per cent of our company's manufacturing was in Germany and United States, 87 per cent of engineering was in Switzerland, Germany, United States; three countries.

I said, off the bat, we need to have 60 to 70% of our engineering workforce from growth countries, 90% of manufacturing in BCC or best cost countries."

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-01-03/news/57633931_1_turnaround-ceos-brands

Total Calculated Compensation $13,967,163 As of Fiscal Year 2015

He's probably just playing catch-up: 2008 Total compensation: $30.4 million

Regardless, I certainly have zero interest in the brand anymore.

[Ed Kreamer]

I had the very good fortune to meet Dr. Sidney Harman in 1974. I found him to be a charming energetic man, who valued hard work and performance. He also valued ( as far as I could tell ) honesty and integrity and loyalty. When things didn't go as they were supposed to he would what to know why, but did not hold that against you unless you screwed up again. Judging from what I knew of the man, I can't help but think that Dr. Harman would be livid at what has happened to the company he worked so hard to build and to maintain. So what the hell is going on? It makes me sick to observe these tiny brained misanthropes destroying an iconic American company.

[Wagner]

................that LOUD SUCKING SOUND when you next pull the lever............AND who's friends with this pig...........just sayin':
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Jane_Harman,_official_portrait,_111th_Congress.jpg/220px-Jane_Harman,_official_portrait,_111th_Congress.jpg
The writing was on the wall with the move to mexico

[Wagner]

Sorry, sincerely, for the way in which you have been treated Mr. Timbers, your talents have brought much joy to my and my family's life

Sincere regrets and good luck to you,
Thomas Wagner

[mech986]

Much of this is because Paliwal is not America centric but more global in his thinking. I'm not against that, but he stated in the article that 4313B linked that his ambition was to completely change the way Harman worked and behaved globally, which thinly meant that current and legacy US and American knowledge, expertise, and manufacturing was much less important than globalizing all 3 of those factors - moving them to other countries where the market and growth was going to be, as well as cheaper labor and larger workforce pool.

The sad part of all this is that Harman prided himself originally on American based companies which had some legacy in American manufacturing and engineering. But this CEO believed it was and is important for him to shatter and literally remove all of that, moving to less than 30% America involvement. Some other quotes from that article:

"We had a clear five year plan. We had to take $400 dollar permanent cost out for a small company of our size; we were less than $3 billion.


http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/images/pixel.gif
This year, we are a $6 billion dollar company. Our profit has tripled. Goal was $400 million. We took out $500 million dollars permanent cost, which means it will never creep back in the company. I had to shut the first plant in Los Angeles. Now you may say "did you really have a factory in the middle of Los Angeles?" Yes I did, a large factory.
That was the constituency of the founder's wife. She was a Congresswoman so that was the most difficult thing for any CEO. I said I'm going to shut that factory first just to send a message that I'm here in all seriousness."

"I discovered a great company with the most iconic brands in audio and a very good reputation in the auto industry. We were working exclusively with German cars and Lexus. Sidney Harmon was a founder who had been running the company for 40 plus years. He was 88 year old, very active and he had tried three CEOs in the last two years before I came in. So the number one thing I discovered was here's a man who needs to be shown very clearly what's not working but with courage. I needed to invest in these brands and take these brands where they've never been to. We had no growth story so we needed to go to the growth markets like China, India. We needed to innovate. We needed to design the cost without sacrificing quality. I have always said you cannot be a sustainable profit leader if you don't have the sustainable cost advantage."


"I have a very clear bias for people who have lived in different countries. They have a whole new mindset: Cultural diversity, different needs, new consumer insights. If you have a bunch of white males from America, how do you expect them to know Japanese cultural differences? What really ticks with Chinese or Indians or even Europeans.
So I have a German, a Korean, an Indian, a Brazilian, and a woman CFO on my team. This is a global leadership team. So, my board was a very colloquial 73 plus Americans. I ended up bringing a Scotsman, a Hungarian, a Chinese, and a German on board. Why? Because I wanted to have unique competencies in the board in the retail, the emerging market knowledge, and the people side of skill."

"I was very lucky to have the opportunity to work for people like Jurgen Dormann who came from the pharmaceutical industry. He was the CEO of Hoechst and then Sanofi Pharmaceuticals and he was the Chairman, CEO and President of ABB for the last 5-7 years of my time. He had one word: pipeline.
He said invest in your pipeline; pipeline of people, pipeline of product innovation. If you don't have these two you have no future. That's exactly what I did. I had to hire talent from outside. I told myself, that won't happen again in this company. I'll start to develop talent in this company."

Yep, cut the cost of talent and expertise and innovation you already have, and then depend on new, young, and in some cases, relatively inexperienced engineers. But that's a conglomerate bean counter mentality. I don't doubt Paliwal will continue to push Harman into the areas of growth he knows will be there. But JBL as a cutting edge loudspeaker company based on American Engineering has come to an end.

The only way we will ever see this again, if ever, is to have new driven private companies run by single-minded individuals who want to see their vision succeed. But that is likely a dream these days.

Sad, sad, sad.

[jpw]

After a brief pause from the shock of the news, I would also add that I do not feel these events devalue what designs JBL has done in the past or is doing now. In fact it may make the current models more valuable going forward.

It's hard to be positive right now about what remaining engineering capability JBL will have going forward. But I think it is important to remember that we do not have a complete picture on what JBL is planning or may have in the pipeline for talent. My best hope is that, like a major league baseball team selling off their aging stars (sorry Greg and Jerry), they have good prospects in their farm system somewhere for down the road. If you aren't buying this right now, I can't blame you.......

[DavidF]

I have mixed feelings on what I perceive to be happening at Harman. Companies have to grow or they die. Some of the old brands formed around one individual’s tenents may well linger on after they pass on or retire. With new stewardship those firms can hold to the same core values but those companies are most often privately held and subject to a different return-on-capital expectations by the owners (Klipsch, Harbeth).

Harman can certainly show muscle in the capital markets in which few audio companies can compete. Pioneer, Panasonic and similar have all pretty much moved to the audio-as-an-appliance approach and away from the consumer HiFi end of themarket (I know….the Technics brand is peeking out of its rabbit hole again). It became all about brand merchandising and out-sourcing and less about nurturing long-term customer relationships.

So as an owner of Harman (and I might be in some IRA fund or other!) I could be satisfied that the company is out there building marketing channels and providing inexpensive goods that people consume world-wide…for a profit. On the other hand, as a mature consumer grounded in the sense of value in a product- and in confidence of quality of the brand- I rue the way Harman is exorcising JBL’s legacy of quality, care and sound engineering that was critical in building a long-term customer relationships.

When Greg was so rudely asked to leave I wasn’t sure if was an isolated case of bad judgment or part of some overall top-down change in the division. I think the consultants like to call it a “new paradigm”. The company has to become a living organism, able to quickly adapt and adjust, not relying upon older industrial-era conventions. Yeah, well, can’t say for sure but evidence of continued change must have been in the air. Jerry and the others must have of sensed something was changing that would affect them. Not necessarily that their positions were at risk, but more like what their role in the firm may become and how satisfying would it be to remain with JBL? Whatever, it wasn't their choice and that sucks.

One thing seems obvious, those days of testing drivers on the roof of Northridge in the cool of the morning must seem like ancient history to the remaining few that were around in the day.

[SEAWOLF97]

are there any shoes left to drop :dont-know:

[SEAWOLF97]

Right - this kind of garbage is why I sold off all my legacy JBLs -
.

maybe for you , but I will listen to them tomorrow and bet they sound same as today.

maybe classic JBL was akin to Camelot ... a great period in time that has now disappeared. That may make the classics even MORE valuable to me.

didn't you switch to other brands before the Harming legacy suicide ?

[BMWCCA]

I have mixed feelings on what I perceive to be happening at Harman. Companies have to grow or they die. Some of the old brands formed around one individual’s tenents may well linger on after they pass on or retire. With new stewardship those firms can hold to the same core values but those companies are most often privately held and subject to a different return-on-capital expectations by the owners.

I can't see any rationale for the apparent policy of dumping those who brought you to the dance. Even if you look at it in the most charitable way for Harman, and agree that they have to "grow or die", what would the actual cost have been to have kept Greg and Jerry in their positions? I would hope those two gentlemen would have been compensated nicely for their brains, their experience, and their contribution to JBL, but even if they approached seven-figure salaries, what percentage of Harman's budget would it have cost just to keep them on?

I don't believe these decisions were based on the bean-counters but they are symbolic of a shift in corporate mission that is so contrary to what made JBL the great pioneer they had been, to a shell of a company with an iconic name that is just an embarrassment to those currently in-charge to the extent that they didn't want any reminder of former greatness around to remind them of what they'd accomplished in gutting a venerable old firm. Once all sense of creativity and invention is gone, they can justify simply counting those beans with no corporate conscience to remind them of their former mission. I wonder what dollar-value they actually put on the JBL name? Or how soon they figure they will have succeeded in devaluing the name to the extent that they'll simply sell it to someone interested in re-establishing the old JBL, with renewed purpose?

:dont-know:

[mech986]

are there any shoes left to drop :dont-know:

Oh, sure. The entire professional parts department for example. I know a few folks there, one who has been there at least 15-20 years and who plays music and knows the drivers and parts for all the vintage speakers too.

If JBL ever decided to abandon the professional market, or outsource all to offshore, they'd be the first to go.

Reminds me of HH Scott when they were sold off to Emerson. IIRC, a number of semis with all of the literature, records, parts, history, tooling, equipment of HH Scott was moved in the late 60's or early 70's to consolidate with Emerson, and the vast majority of it was essentially put into dumpsters. I had heard there were some private individuals who wanted to save it, buy it, or at least find a way to make it usable for Scott fans and previous owners, but Emerson decided there would be too much liability, plus probably confusion of who exactly was Emerson's new owners.

[mech986]

Personally, I'm surprised that JBL consumer still exists in NY. You'd expect them to get booted down to a no income tax state.

[gtimbers]

I can assure you that neither of us even approach a 7 figure salary, or even $200k for that matter. What is interesting, and sad, is that both of us are still top of the heap in the engineering department. So the idea of getting rid of the old dogs for younger more up to date engineers is just not correct. None of the guys left have any skills we don't have and we have talents beyond what any of them do not even factoring in experience. It looks to me like pure dollars and cents plus a desire by the guy in charge to purge all JBL people. Jerry and I probably account for 80% of the IP within engineering. Things just don't add up if keeping the department open for the long haul is really in the plans.

[LowPhreak]

"... invest in your pipeline...", and the rest of the drivel Paliwal is peddling there. No doubt you've heard it all before. What the hell does that vague, soaring, MBA/sales pitch crap even mean? I'm sure if you asked any 5 of these clowns in the hallway at CT or Northridge you'd get 5 (or 7 or 10) tangential replies, none of which would make any more sense than the others.

Well they did get to sing multi-cultural Kumbaya and that's always a plus, right?

You wonder if they all get the same but slightly rehashed, refried spiel from the U. of Chicago School of Economics, in reality just another Dale Carnegie rah-rah speech with a few modernized terms tossed in to sound edgy. Similar to the Christmas fruitcake that gets passed around every year that no one ever wants or eats, they just keep giving the same (but ever more stale) fruitcake again the next year.

To quote a Joe Jackson lyric: "We don't have rocks in our heads!" :banghead:

Is this all you get for paying a $13 million annual CEO package?

[Alobar]

I really despise what has happened to my beloved speaker manufacturer, but somehow in the wake of its demise I love my old JBL's all the more. At this point I'm going to try to hang onto them for the rest of my life.

[mech986]

I can assure you that neither of us even approach a 7 figure salary, or even $200k for that matter. What is interesting, and sad, is that both of us are still top of the heap in the engineering department. So the idea of getting rid of the old dogs for younger more up to date engineers is just not correct. None of the guys left have any skills we don't have and we have talents beyond what any of them do not even factoring in experience. It looks to me like pure dollars and cents plus a desire by the guy in charge to purge all JBL people. Jerry and I probably account for 80% of the IP within engineering. Things just don't add up if keeping the department open for the long haul is really in the plans.

Is Toole involved in any or all of this, or is he gone or outside (consultant) the company? As an older guy, would he also be vulnerable to being outsourced?

I don't doubt this is mostly a cost cutting move, probably because they don't want to build anything remotely expensive, or accurate, high tech, cutting edge anymore, figuring JBL can basically live off its reputation and sound like BOSE to the uninitiated. It certainly seems they are pushing hard on the automotive connectedness front if their press and corporate initiatives are to be believed.

I suspect that JBL will be "good enough" and that's all.

What do you think will happen to JBL professional and product development there? That area does not suffer fools or poor performance / reliability for very long, word gets around fast.

the only saving grace in all of this is likely, in the not too distant future, the management guys who terminated you all will themselves be let go once the purge is completed. And they will probably be let go via email or text, along with an escort by the last remaining security person.

[4313B]

The writing was on the wall with the move to mexicoThe article outlines what his master plan is. He tells why he moved the plant to Mexico and why he is making large changes to manufacturing and engineering.


the management guys who terminated you all will themselves be let go once the purge is completedIt would be nice to know who they were.

[Horn Fanatic]

This should come as no surprise. Sid Harman began pissing on the JBL legacy 25 years ago. The JBL we grew up with was abandoned long ago.
Soon will come a time when JBL products will be fodder for land fills. Eventually the company will suffer the same fate as ALTEC Lansing,
sold off to the highest bidder to people who have no interest in audio products other than market share and to make a quick buck off a legendary name.

Perhaps if Harman had focused his attention on JBL, rather than buying up as many audio and musical instrument product manufacturers as he could,
his company wouldn't be in shambles. I lay the blame for the demise of JBL at his door step.

[hjames]

maybe for you , but I will listen to them tomorrow and bet they sound same as today.

maybe classic JBL was akin to Camelot ... a great period in time that has now disappeared. That may make the classics even MORE valuable to me.

didn't you switch to other brands before the Harmin' legacy suicide ?

I did try other brands for the home theater, (and sold them off).
The TV room has UREI 809s as mains and side surrounds,
(they were bought by JBL and have concentric JBL drivers) plus,
I still have L20T in the office, and L19s by the treadmill downstairs ...

Remember, even when I had other speakers,
my pride and joy was the L200Bs upstairs - until this silliness started.
I sold them for a fair price and we both were happy with that deal.

But - this is not about my choices - its about Harmin' taking a dump on their legacy ...

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Greg, and All,

Personally, I was already disgusted with the current crop of idiots that run JBL, so this news was expected, though still very sad. I agree with those to believe that owning Legacy systems is more important than ever, and I am exceedingly happy that I have the different systems, and components I own, all made during the Halcyon years at JBL!!! People who listen to our JBL's are awestruck, and can't believe what they are enjoying is coming from a set of speakers! So, we'll keep our quality JBL's until they can no longer be maintained, and will continue to enjoy them, every single time we listen to music played back through them!!! I always think of you, Greg, when even LOOKING at our L300's, L250's, and the other systems that are in the works!! I'm sure that others do that, too. So, though you and Jerry are no longer with JBL, and the eventual and total demise of that once great company is rushing headlong to it's sad conclusion, your "presence" will continue to live, through all the wonderful products and systems you designed!!!! Thank you, so very much, for your talents, skills, and love of what you do, and what you will do in the future!!! I'm PROUD to own, enjoy, and love some of the wonderful systems that you designed!! Best of luck, and God Bless you in what whatever you decide to do in the future! Take care, and again, God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Flaesh]

.. products, not yet to market, are a pair of stunning in wall systems using a compression driver and horn. They still fit into a standard 4" wall. I worked with him on these products a bit before my demise. They are absolutely outstanding..
Mr. Timbers, can you tell more about this systems?..

[Ian Mackenzie]

What l find ethically wrong is that they are using the legacy as a cover story to drive the JBL consumer brand but the business now has nothing in common with the legacy now.

The story is much about the work the Greg, Jerry and others did and the culture that evolved.

I really don't see how you can run that story with the way the business operates now and without the key people who delivered the legacy. I recall a You tube video of the JBL hall of fame and a JBL engineer saying this is how we do stuff.

That needs to be edited to the way we used to do stuff.

The passion, the talent and the years of engagement form a big part of your life and when this happens its devestating.

Meanwhile the CEO is having his self styled orgasm over how he turned the business into something bigger and better.

The simple reality is that in the consumer markets the brand ended and it would have been better if it ceased but he needed the name to push the corporate growth.

It's fine to be opportunistic but many would liken this change to stealing a brand?

[sebackman]

I am very sad to see this era of JBL excellence being dismantled bit by bit. Hearing about fantastic experience, creativity and knowledge just being wasted is indeed discouraging. It is especially disappointing to hear about the way this is being done and the apparent lack of insight in the JBL brand value & heritage at Harman Group. That is where it all started.

It is brilliant that Mr Timbers does take the time to help us out here on the forum. Such help/ information is invaluable, especially for us that make our living in completely other areas and have started to understand that the more we learn the less we know. Hat’s off.

I’m an investment banker by trade & profession and I took a look at the Harman Group’s numbers . The story becomes brutally clear when reading them. The other business areas are growing rapidly with increasing earnings while “Professional” is more or less at a standstill since several years. If this is due to that the group resources have been allocated to the other divisions or the fact that there are more car & mobile phone owners in the world than audiophiles is difficult to se. The acquisition in the group lately has also been targeted towards the other divisions. In 2015 the “Infotainment ” now “Connected Car” division grew beyond 3 times the size of “Professional” and with an nominal EBITDA growth of 33% while “Professional“ only had 8%. “Lifestyle”, where “Luxury Audio” is a piece alongside automotive and others, is about twice the size of “Professional” and when looking at the presentations there is no doubt that the “automotive” & “portable” part seems to be where the growth is . The writing has been on the wall for some time it appears.

However, as sad it may be for us die hard JBL fan’s, it is crystal clear where Harman Group is moving and why. Shareholders in general and passive investors as funds in particular have no “feelings” and there is limited room for pricing historic achievements when driving share price. For the CEO’s of today, the quarterly earnings philosophy rules. It used to be “quality is everything” but now it is “growth is everything”. History will show us if that is the right formula, I personally have my doubts.

How that will turn out in the long run is of course difficult to predict. Some companies have managed to re-invent themselves and keep the old customers and gain new ones. Others have slowly faded away as they lost their heritage.

Nothing in the corporate story above does justify the way Mr Timers, and apparently others subsequently, were treated. On the contrary, employees that have brought so much value for so many years deserve to be treated with respect and gratitude, regardless if their position is changed or terminated. Good old decency seems to be a currency in decay, too bad.

One can only hope that somewhere down the timeline there is a newfound understanding of the values that made the brand strong and where it all started. Maybe JBL/Harman eventually decides to follow the path of many other companies that live off of their historic achievements & brand recognition and start a separate “vintage” division/unit to care for and cherish the values that made them great.

This has become common in auto industry and both Porsche, Mercedes and Ferrari have over the last few years started their own “in-house” service and restore business to service the customer who still live and breathe all the old values that made them great. It has become evident that products are in most cases rather short lived but the perceived brand value among customers can be very stable if well managed.

Maybe the “rights” to the vintage JBL products could be bought or licensed from Harman and a JBL vintage company could be formed to serve all the “vintage” JBL products owners globally. There should be a large “installed base” with enough paying customers to run such small scale speciality operation. With brilliant resources as mentioned above (GT, JM and others) no longer restricted by NDA’s to Harman there is invaluable resources to consult for insights and experience. Crowd funding?

These are of course just observations blended with plain dreams. However, with the alternative being a possible slow death of one of the great names in audiophile market such dreams where talented people, experience and knowledge can again be put to valuable use, to the delight of us JBL nut’s, are truly worth dreaming

Kind regards and best of luck to the JBL icons mentioned above to find new prosperous hunting ground

//RoB

[4313B]

That needs to be edited to the way we used to do stuff.:yes:

This guy "discovered a great company with the most iconic brands in audio and a very good reputation in the auto industry" and stole it.

[Ian Mackenzie]

This guy "discovered a great company with the most iconic brands in audio and a very good reputation in the auto industry" and stole it.

That about sums it up

[Ian Mackenzie]

Makes you wonder if a crowd funding would be the way to bring the authentic JBL brand back to life?

Something along the lines of Great Plains Audio.

The other option might be for Greg and Jerry walk right up to TAD front door and finish what Bart started.

[spkrman57]

I'm glad I have older JBL drivers since there is no future hope JBL will be as great as the old days!

Ron sends..

I'm glad I was there for some if the glorydays!!!

[jlyons]

The forced departure of Jerry, and that of Greg earlier constitute a great cultural (counter)
revolution at Harman/JBL. We have seen foreshocks of this in the move to machilidora manufacturing. The product development at JBL has been brilliant, lead by these two genius engineers, and now even their recent efforts have become legacy. The new CEO level leadership did not steal the company, rather turned it into a capitalist dream of monetary return. The mba speak is honest, if deplorable, and contrary to my belief of the basis of value. It does not sound like music to me, rather like a burned voice coil.

[NWCgrad]

Another body blow to a once great company. The MBA mentality is very shortsighted as it erodes the existing consumer support base for new consumers in higher growth areas. The problem is the high growth areas today are all about portability, convenience and style....three trends which are fluid and hard to maintain consumer loyalty.

Globalization is not the future, it's the now and this is a small microcosm of the effect. Instead of maintaining current operations with expansion into new developing markets it is easier to move production from higher cost countries to countries with low cost. The CEO's closing of the LA facility to send a message is damning in my view.

One supposedly unforeseeable aspect of this is an actual decrease in global wages as countries compete to win new facilities by reducing labor costs. Instead of being a force raising living wages often in countries like Cambodia the wages for people have not increased (but on the flip side there are a lot more jobs). I am not an economist, howevert lived for two years in Cambodia working in the US Embassy and it was an eye opening experience.

Reading the link from the first page made me sick.

[gmarascortt]

I hate corporate America.....so very sad and disgusting. Thanks Greg and Jerry for all the great precision products you and others engineered!
I will cherish all of my vintage JBL speakers for as long as I live! Thank you for the memories and future listening pleasures....

[Wagner]

The forced departure of Jerry, and that of Greg earlier constitute a great cultural (counter)
revolution at Harman/JBL. We have seen foreshocks of this in the move to machilidora manufacturing. The product development at JBL has been brilliant, lead by these two genius engineers, and now even their recent efforts have become legacy. The new CEO level leadership did not steal the company, rather turned it into a capitalist dream of monetary return. The mba speak is honest, if deplorable, and contrary to my belief of the basis of value. It does not sound like music to me, rather like a burned voice coil.
"maquiladora"

[Wagner]

I hate corporate America.....so very sad and disgusting.
What a stupid remark..............if you need a target to "hate" on then try the sheeple with their voting and buying habits...........along with their THEIR "sad and disgusting" ignorance and gullibility

No one (not many anyway) wants to think long term anymore and no one wants to pay the price of good stewardship, so there you have it

A great deal of over analysis here and deep philosophical :bs:-this began long long ago, JBL simply was able to resist the inevitable longer than many

It was and is the stupidity of the majority of Americans that is responsible for this decline in our manufacturing base-we have no else to blame but ourselves....................that and the "digital narcotic" that's rotting the brains of the current generation

Thomas

[jlyons]

Wagner, thank you for correcting my spelling of "maquiladora"... it is good to be relaxed with one's friends and able to take criticism, and so be able to learn. In that spirit, when I reflect on who I want to be "hating on" or not, your comment to Gmarascort seems hasty, even in this emotionally charged thread. So I wondered about these sheeple and the withdrawal of educational and cultural supports, and diminishing share in the wealth, which might contribute to the condition you describe. If they don't hear live music, and cannot afford good music boxes, then who is to blame? Income inequality and denialism about the future are more trickle down than up from the sheeple. If someone equates MBA technique (expressed against our cultural American hero engineers) and "Corporate America" perhaps they might not be stupid. I suggest deeper listening, as well as careful spelling.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I have no doubt Don and Steve have been watching events closely.

It would be interesting if Don did a podcast interview with Greg and Jerry on the before and after the recent events and loaded a link in the Library.

[LowPhreak]

What a stupid remark..............if you need a target to "hate" on then try the sheeple with their voting and buying habits...........along with their THEIR "sad and disgusting" ignorance and gullibility

No one (not many anyway) wants to think long term anymore and no one wants to pay the price of good stewardship, so there you have it

A great deal of over analysis here and deep philosophical :bs:-this began long long ago, JBL simply was able to resist the inevitable longer than many

It was and is the stupidity of the majority of Americans that is responsible for this decline in our manufacturing base-we have no else to blame but ourselves....................that and the "digital narcotic" that's rotting the brains of the current generation

Thomas


How bourgeois of you. :rolleyes:

I won't get started on ridiculous much of this post is.

[Horn Fanatic]

*Sigh*.

QSC seems to be doing a fine business- maybe they would like a couple old-school bigbrains to get into a new space and refine existing?


Funny you should mention QSC. QSC was contracted to build amplifiers for JBL some time ago. Harman industries tried to buy QSC, but Pat and Barry passed on the deal. That was when Harman bought Crown.

If anyone had wondered why all of a sudden QCS began manufacturing light weight amplifiers, it is because the company hire the same guy Bob Carver hired to design his light weight amplifiers. Business makes strange bed fellows.

[Horn Fanatic]

[QUOTE=Ian Mackenzie;388578]Makes you wonder if a crowd funding would be the way to bring the authentic JBL brand back to life?

"Something along the lines of Great Plains Audio."

I agree, but GPA was started with Bill's money. TELEX was gracious enough the sell Bill tools, parts, and machinery to continue the ALTEC legacy. Bill also bought a noisy contraption that Jim Lansing built. The machine that stamps out compression driver diaphragms. That machine is still working after nearly 80 years. I used to hear it chugging away as I passed through the speaker department at ALTEC.

"The other option might be for Greg and Jerry walk right up to TAD front door and finish what Bart started."

Interesting concept. Unless TAD isn't hiring, the company would be foolish not to entertain the idea of taking Greg and Jerry on board.

[Ed Kreamer]

Colleagues;

I don't blame corporations, I blame supidthink and the kind of shortsightedness that is being taught at the finest ivy league business schools. In my different careers, I have worked for several corporations. Some good some not so good.
It is always dictated from the top, and the top is run by people. After all, corporations are a legal fiction created by lawyers. I don't mean to get philosophical here, but there are those who would kill the goose to get to the golden eggs. And in my observation our present business practices seem to be going in that direction. I believe that even B&W are having their products built in China. That being said.........

I can't help but believe that whomever is behind this stupidity is a small minded individual of envy and ambition who takes glee in ruining other peoples lives. What goes around comes around. Whomever is behind this will get theirs, and I hope that it will be soon.

For now I will keep my L-20's 4410's and my ancient Altecs and lust for my acquisition of the LSR 6332, which I think Greg and Jerry had a hand in.

[Radley]

Funny you should mention QSC. QSC was contracted to build amplifiers for JBL some time ago. Harman industries tried to buy QSC, but Pat and Barry passed on the deal. That was when Harman bought Crown.

If anyone had wondered why all of a sudden QCS began manufacturing light weight amplifiers, it is because the company hire the same guy Bob Carver hired to design his light weight amplifiers. Business makes strange bed fellows.


QSC did make thousands of amplifiers for JBL (UREI). Sadly, most of QSC's products are now made in China.

I remember a rep told me about being given a tour of the loudspeaker factory at Northridge. They had racks and racks of speakers being burned in and it was all being driven by the QSC/ Urei's, except when they got to the low frequency 15"s & 18"s. There they were using Crest 8001's.

[Wagner]

your comment to Gmarascort seems hasty, even in this emotionally charged thread...........diminishing share in the wealth, which might contribute to the condition you describe...............Income inequality and denialism about the future are more trickle down than up from the sheeple.
Nothing hasty about it friend, these trends started long long ago-started with our criminally inept business dealings with the Japanese (which in that case, wiped out the lion's share of our once prolific and cutting edge Audio industry)

Speakers only survived here as well as they did thanks in large part to the enormous costs of shipping and our (at the time) seemingly endless supply of timber; if large speakers SYSTEMS could have been shipped cheaply, in competitive quantity I think the Japs would have probably wiped out JBL long ago (think the power and resources of a Pioneer, and off shoot divisions like TAD as well as engineering behemoths like SONY), even before Mr. Timbers was a part of the JBL scene (and great success)

I am NOT comparing the Jap speaker "industry" to ours or JBL in particular, only the history of it's development or lack thereof (as for market share). I AM saying that they certainly had and still have the resources, both financially and intellectually, to give us a run for our money. It was only distance and other logistical factors that kept them from wiping us out on that one as well.

There is NO SUCH THING as "income inequality" except in the minds of Marxists (imaginary, a rallying cry for the useless and lazy) and those suffering at the hands of socialists or fascists (which in this case is not imaginary but real as extreme "progressives" will ultimately and always subjugate the sheeple, witness Cuba (and now we're skirting too closely to politics so this will stop here)

IT IS NOT A ZERO SUM GAME in a small "r" republic; the sooner people realize this the better off we all will be

You must be very young judging from your reliance on such stale socialist buzz words and cliches............and the fact that you missed my point entirely

And lastly, what people are or are not buying (and what freedoms, options and choices they are willing to forgo), whether it's ears buds or red communism is ALL a product of marketing, i.e.: salesmanship

But there is one inarguable truth with all of the above, people who really know how to THINK won't buy into any of the :bs: but will and do ultimately suffer as a result of it................can you say NAFTA boys and girls?

I know Jane can

[Wagner]

Colleagues;

I don't blame corporations, I blame supidthink and the kind of shortsightedness that is being taught at the finest ivy league business schools. In my different careers, I have worked for several corporations. Some good some not so good.
It is always dictated from the top, and the top is run by people. After all, corporations are a legal fiction created by lawyers. I don't mean to get philosophical here, but there are those who would kill the goose to get to the golden eggs. And in my observation our present business practices seem to be going in that direction. I believe that even B&W are having their products built in China. That being said.........

I can't help but believe that whomever is behind this stupidity is a small minded individual of envy and ambition who takes glee in ruining other peoples lives. What goes around comes around. Whomever is behind this will get theirs, and I hope that it will be soon.

For now I will keep I will keep my L-20's 4410's and my ancient Altecs and lust for my acquisition of the LSR 6332, which I think Greg and Jerry had a hand in.
Absolutely!!!

EXCEPT, I think the "small minded individual of envy and ambition", although possibly guilty of what you suggest, is in all likelihood more interested in making as much money for himself as he possibly can while saying "F you" to everyone else and the rest of the world to boot.
You hit the nail right on the head, and it's funny, the goose that laid the golden eggs popped into my head just as soon as this thread got going (while reading some of the pontificating on the great philosophical dilemmas and "social" struggles against all of this "inequality" of our times :barf:)

Thanks for having a good common sense mind, everything in this world doesn't have to be the result of some ideological struggle between the forces of good and evil........................sometimes things are simply the result of greedy douche bags f'ing folks over for their own personal gain..........that, and laziness, stupidity and the addiction to instant gratification (and wanting it all for "free" or as close to it ass possible)

Best regards,
Thomas Wagner

[JeffW]

Thanks for taking one of the most profound and serious threads in recent history . . . right down the rabbit hole.

I just hope we don't scare Greg away from our forum. I truly appreciate his contributions here.


Now back to your regularly scheduled drama . . .

:banghead:

My thoughts exactly. I even came very close to posting the same, but wanted to avoid kicking the hornet's nest.

https://www.xonitek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Train-off-the-rails.jpg

[Wagner]

My thoughts exactly. I even came very close to posting the same, but wanted to avoid kicking the hornet's nest.

I think (in fact I am sure of it) that both of you either do not or cannot understand my posts.......................they are absolutely relevant to the topic......................the death of American manufacturing

If you want to whimper about me, do it via PM and spare us all self-important, conscience of the forum lectures

Again, your whining is very tiresome

Thomas

[Mr. Widget]

JBL (Harman Luxury) laid off 3 more employees yesterday. Their seniority totaled over 70 years. The big hit was Jerry Moro. Jerry's work is legendary and his transducers have been featured in most of my designs for years. He also has done transducers for Revel, JBL automotive product, some really fine subs used by Synthesis and JBL Pro just to name a few of his many, many accomplishments over the years. His latest products, not yet to market, are a pair of stunning in wall systems using a compression driver and horn. They still fit into a standard 4" wall. I worked with him on these products a bit before my demise. They are absolutely outstanding.

So this brings an end to any world class engineers at JBL. Jerry and I were the last two. There are only 3 guys left and although they are competent, they are no where near the knowledge, success or capability of what they just dumped. The senior Model maker left last week to go elsewhere which means that Consumer no longer has any model making capabilities, either.

It appears that this is the end for JBL was we have known it. The Lab equipment is in total disarray with much of it not working properly. If it weren't for Professional's need for and use of the lab, I doubt that it would function at all. There will be no more internal transducer development, no world class engineers, no more internal model making capabilities and no more real JBL product. It is just going to be me-too product copied from somebody else and designed and manufactured in China or equivalent.

Hold on to your Vintage products and hope that you can find a way to get parts when things wear out. None of this will involve Harman any longer!Thank you.

Thank you for all your years of service to our hobby and passion and thank you for keeping us abreast of what is going on at JBL.

Tragically I'm afraid you're right that this is very likely the end of JBL as a design and quality leader. Mr. Paliwal has honestly told us and the shareholders of Harman exactly what his plans are. They may increase profits in the short term, but ultimately it will take these industry leading companies that Sidney Harman assembled over a lifetime and turn them into producers of lackluster commodities. While it makes me sick, I find solace in the amazing JBL systems that I am privileged to own and enjoy.


Widget

[JuniorJBL]

Thank you.

Thank you for all your years of service to our hobby and passion and thank you for keeping us abreast of what is going on at JBL.

Tragically I'm afraid you're right that this is very likely the end of JBL as a design and quality leader. Mr. Paliwal has honestly told us and the shareholders of Harman exactly what his plans are. They may increase profits in the short term, but ultimately it will take these industry leading companies that Sidney Harman assembled over a lifetime and turn them into lackluster commodities. While it makes me sick, I find solace in the amazing JBL systems that I am privileged to own and enjoy.


Widget


I would also like to echo Widget's statement here.

While we may not get to enjoy any further high quality designs from this once held in high esteem company, I will in fact continue to enjoy some of Greg's finest designs and Jerry's finest drivers for quite some time to come. At least I will know the effort and pride that had driven these designs to the final detail so that we could enjoy the hobby that we all love.

Thanks to all those that have worked tirelessly to bring us such wonderful products and may you find happiness in any future en devours that you seek. My Thoughts, Prayers and Thanks go out to you.

Shane

[1audiohack]

26 years and see ya.

It's pretty cool that many here see engineers as heros of sorts. It's been my experience that up in "cooperate" engineers are often thought of as tools like calculators to the effect that if you need one, you hire one and when your done, down the road they go.

I haven't looked back but how long have the 2226, 2446, 2450 and the like been "current" products? Several years ago some pretty major improvements have yielded a new family of drivers that will possibly be "current" for 20-30 years. I can see the argument where someone says "Hey we can ride these horses as long as anyone of us will be here". When we need enginerring we'll just grab some new talent.

Good luck with that.

One other thought if I may:

America became THE manufacturing super power after WWII, largly impart because the rest of the worlds manufacturing facilities lay in absolute ruin. Remember we were the only manufacturing nation who by great fortune, the battle front never came home save Pearl Harbor.

By the end of the war, we were the only manufacturing country still operable and we were in high gear in support of our military. This placed us in the very enviable position where the entire world was our market, all of it. We ran like we owned the world for 30 plus years before there seemed to be any possibility that we could ever not hold that position. That was a bubble. We are now in a position where we have to fight for our share of the pie, and we are just re-learning how.

Like it or not, for the record I don't, the way we do/ have done things are changing. I want my GM economy back, that was home. This new way is very foreign to me. Maybe it's true, you can never go home.

Barry.

[Alobar]

26 years and see ya.

It's pretty cool that many here see engineers as heros of sorts. It's been my experience that up in "cooperate" engineers are often thought of as tools like calculators to the effect that if you need one, you hire one and when your done, down the road they go.

I haven't looked back but how long have the 2226, 2446, 2450 and the like been "current" products? Several years ago some pretty major improvements have yielded a new family of drivers that will possibly be "current" for 20-30 years. I can see the argument where someone says "Hey we can ride these horses as long as anyone of us will be here". When we need enginerring we'll just grab some new talent.

Good luck with that.

One other thought if I may:

America became THE manufacturing super power after WWII, largly impart because the rest of the worlds manufacturing facilities lay in absolute ruin. Remember we were the only manufacturing nation who by great fortune, the battle front never came home save Pearl Harbor.

By the end of the war, we were the only manufacturing country still operable and we were in high gear in support of our military. This placed us in the very enviable position where the entire world was our market, all of it. We ran like we owned the world for 30 plus years before there seemed to be any possibility that we could ever not hold that position. That was a bubble. We are now in a position where we have to fight for our share of the pie, and we are just re-learning how.

Like it or not, for the record I don't, the way we do/ have done things are changing. I want my GM economy back, that was home. This new way is very foreign to me. Maybe it's true, you can never go home.

Barry.
Wonderfully stated!

[Ian Mackenzie]

I looked at the Harman corporate web page and it tells much of the future direction.

JBL synthesis (JBL Luxury)is but a postage stamp on the overall conglomerate.

My impression is that the JBL synthesis is a small flagship line that won't need much further development in the near future while JBL home speakers will be trickle down tech from JBL professional (M2) like a line extension umbilical.

It seems this was a "done" deal with the arrival of the M2wave-guide.

So why did they need a consumer engineering department? Not at bean counter level.

It sucks as everything in the me too consumer line tools like pub AV equipment with vinyl veneer wrapping. A far cry from the decade series, the L300 and the Ti line.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the JBL monitor line?

[pos]

My impression is that the JBL synthesis is a small flagship line that won't need much further development in the near future while JBL home speakers will be trickle down tech from JBL professional (M2) like a line extension umbilical.

It seems this was a "done" deal with the arrival of the M2wave-guide.

So why did they need a consumer engineering department?
The 2216nd actually comes form consumer, it is Jerry Moro's design.
As are those synthesis small monitors, too...

[cooky1257]

It's a shame but a pattern repeated across the world as corporate growth and maximising share price is a the obsession/legal responsibility of every CEO.
What galls me is the myopia, the brain dead money blind short-termism that ignores the essence, the source of the innovation, the inevitable trickle down into the broader consumer lines that will be lost when those areas of traditional R&D excellence are abandoned. It's voracious capitalism at its worst.

[Wagner]

It's voracious capitalism at its worst.
I disagree and it certainly did not start out that way.
What we are dealing with today (and paying the price for) are the unintended consequences of The Marshall Plan, aka: nation building by economic means
The intent was positive in nature and early on it's purpose was to prevent militarization, the rise of communism and to antagonize the Soviet Union

All good things, right?

Although technically The Marshall Plan did not extend to Japan (in name and by legislation), similar activities were conducted there under the guidance of General Douglas MacArthur

The Korean War solidified our entanglement in the Pacific sphere of economic activity even further

Japan and Germany both enjoyed strong industrial bases, good infrastructure and an educated population BEFORE the War
Japan still exerted strong economic influence over it's former colonies as well (where a lot of the consumer junk we enjoy today still comes from and comes from even more)

Many of us here are old enough to remember well the flood of German electronics into this country, then automobiles ever growing from the early '50s onward. And as for Japan? Their goods a bit later (remember Pearl Harbor, the buying public here resisted for a while) but eventually Americans got over that one, just take a look at Toyota for a good model/example..........and KENWOOD and Pioneer and JVC and SONY and on and on and on.............but it all started with cheap toys and pots and pans............the brunt of jokes during my childhood

It is a case of the best of intentions and at the same time growing complacent and being lulled into a false sense of security often enjoyed by the victors in any cataclysmic struggle. Without attempting to construct a doctoral thesis or tome, our best laid (geopolitical) efforts exceeded, I think, our wildest dreams, a Frankenstein's monster of sorts, and we have lived with it all of the decades following WWII..............and yes, by the 1970s greed may have certainly become a factor in some dealings but it was never the original intent.............one could say for example that the gas lines of the Carter years helped to solidify the Jap auto makers market here, or Iacocca opening the door for Mitsubishi built automobiles wearing Dodge and Plymouth name tags (that one still gets me the most)

Remember how initially, for the most part with the Japanese, it was more a matter of OUR technology and engineering married with THEIR execution? But that changed very quickly (think American automobiles, German cameras and eventually audio electronics) Semi Valley Marantz (starting with Superscope), Sherwood and "still headquartered in the U.S.A. Fisher products comes to mind...........and these examples are but a few

As for engineers? No Marshal Plan and back door visas for former Nazi employees, no Moon walk..............or ICBMs

A LOT of sharing and cross pollination but initially it was kept from public view (unless you were willing to dig really deep, deeper that the average consumer cared to)

Enough of this, but I just have to say that criticizing endlessly the evils of FREE market capitalism is an over simplification at best and simply plain ignorance at worst. What is happening at JBL (and a 100 other once great companies) is nothing more than a continuum of a series of events that started long ago, 1945 to be exact. Left as it was originally, things might have turned out differently (think Avery Fisher and his "Dutchmen")

What is happening at JBL TODAY is in large part the result of labor unions, the EPA and a myriad of other destructive domestic "progressive" GOVERNMENTAL (POLITICIANS and SPECIAL INTERESTS) actions as it is the fault of any "bean counter", CEO or board of directors

I'm not defending them (CEOs and Board Rooms), because in many instances they are the same scum bags who help elect the folks making up these rules of the "new game", because yes, they are greedy pigs. But my point is that who one elects to office in THIS COUNTRY does and will have long lasting effects eventually as well as short, and for the past 40 years or so, not so happy ones

That, and the fact that people's "wants" have been manipulated and changed through marketing and now this "group think" brought on by "social media" (the devil's eyeball) to the point of being unrecognizable

I started ranting about 25 years ago that the way things were going we'd soon be getting ALL of our news, entertainment, music and everything else under the Sun from the same (few) monolithic sources and via a handful of "providers" and through a singular device or delivery system technology

Not quite 100% there just yet, but for all practical purposes, that day is now

JBL and others hung on as long as they did thanks to the fact that much of their technology and innovation was proprietary and the environment they existed in at the time immediately following the War wasn't as yet so punitive towards their activities.................that and the fact that America enjoyed the lion's share of the greatest Audio minds there have ever been.................and location (my remarks regarding the costs related to shipping such heavy consumer ("luxury") goods and at the time an abundance of raw materials, namely a cheap and readily available supply of timber products)

I mean who the hell even sits around and grooves to a (good) STEREO system anymore anyway? In any sort of meaningful numbers from a manufacturing standpoint? The closest thing left is the "home theater" crowd, and 95% of them are perfectly happy with an all in one box of plastic shit "system" so there you have it, no engineering required just as long as it goes "tizz, BOOM" REAL LOUD..................and looks "cool"

It's over, and it's over in more ways than one

[SEAWOLF97]

Japan and Germany both enjoyed strong industrial bases, good infrastructure and an educated population BEFORE the War
Japan still exerted strong economic influence over it's former colonies as well (where a lot of the consumer junk we enjoy today still comes from and comes from even more)

I agree with a huge percentage of your latest post, but find the term "Jap" as offensive. They deserve more respect than that. Funny thing is ..internally they only use the name Japan for export. Their daily usage name in "Nippon"

Yes , Japan & Germany had superior industrial capacity before WW2 . The US played "catch up" for quite a while. Japans output was crippled by the war and they have very little natural resources. (The US blocking their importation of oil was one of the factors leading to the Pearl Harbor attack). And you are correct that they got back to manufacturing through toys and consumer goods.

An American businessman , William Edwards Deming used his skills to transform them

"Deming is best known for his work in Japan after WWII, particularly his work with the leaders of Japanese industry. That work began in August 1950 at the Hakone Convention Center in Tokyo when Deming delivered a seminal speech on what he called Statistical Product Quality Administration. Many in Japan credit Deming as the inspiration for what has become known as the Japanese post-war economic miracle of 1950 to 1960, when Japan rose from the ashes of war to start Japan on the road to becoming the second largest economy in the world through processes founded on the ideas Deming taught.

Deming made a significant contribution to Japan's reputation for innovative, high-quality products, and for its economic power. He is regarded as having had more impact on Japanese manufacturing and business than any other individual not of Japanese heritage. Despite being honored in Japan in 1951 with the establishment of the Deming Prize, he was only just beginning to win widespread recognition in the U.S. at the time of his death in 1993.[6] President Ronald Reagan awarded him the National Medal of Technology in 1987. The following year, the National Academy of Sciences gave Deming the Distinguished Career in Science award."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Deming's teachings and philosophy are clearly illustrated by examining the results they produced after they were adopted by Japanese industry, as the following example shows. Ford Motor Company was simultaneously manufacturing a car model with transmissions made in Japan and the United States. Soon after the car model was on the market, Ford customers were requesting the model with Japanese transmission over the US-made transmission, and they were willing to wait for the Japanese model. As both transmissions were made to the same specifications, Ford engineers could not understand the customer preference for the model with Japanese transmission. Finally, Ford engineers decided to take apart the two different transmissions. The American-made car parts were all within specified tolerance levels. On the other hand, the Japanese car parts were virtually identical to each other, and much closer to the nominal values for the parts – e.g., if a part was supposed to be one foot long, plus or minus 1/8 of an inch – then the Japanese parts were all within 1/16 of an inch, less variation. This made the Japanese cars run more smoothly and customers experienced fewer problems

wish he was around today for Harmin'

Ford Motor Company was one of the first American corporations to seek help from Deming. In 1981, Ford's sales were falling. Between 1979 and 1982, Ford had incurred $3 billion in losses. Ford's newly appointed Corporate Quality Director, Larry Moore, was charged with recruiting Deming to help jump-start a quality movement at Ford.[23] Deming questioned the company's culture and the way its managers operated. To Ford's surprise, Deming talked not about quality but about management. He told Ford that management actions were responsible for 85% of all problems in developing better cars.

In 1982, Deming's book Quality, Productivity, and Competitive Position was published by the MIT Center for Advanced Engineering, and was renamed Out of the Crisis in 1986. In it, he offers a theory of management based on his famous 14 Points for Management. Management's failure to plan for the future brings about loss of market, which brings about loss of jobs. Management must be judged not only by the quarterly dividend, but by innovative plans to stay in business, protect investment, ensure future dividends, and provide more jobs through improved products and services. "Long-term commitment to new learning and new philosophy is required of any management that seeks transformation. The timid and the fainthearted, and the people that expect quick results, are doomed to disappointment."

In the 1970s, Deming's philosophy was summarized by some of his Japanese proponents with the following 'a'-versus-'b' comparison:

(a) When people and organizations focus primarily on quality, defined by the following ratio,

Quality = Results of work efforts (divided by) Total costs

quality tends to increase and costs fall over time.

(b) However, when people and organizations focus primarily on costs, costs tend to rise and quality declines over time.


The Wiki entry is fascinating if you are interested in management or production/quality. :)

[300_Summit]

I disagree and it certainly did not start out that way.
What we are dealing with today (and paying the price for) are the unintended consequences of The Marshall Plan, aka: nation building by economic means
The intent was positive in nature and early on it's purpose was to prevent militarization, the rise of communism and to antagonize the Soviet Union

All good things, right?

Although technically The Marshall Plan did not extend to Japan (in name and by legislation), similar activities were conducted there under the guidance of General Douglas MacArthur

The Korean War solidified our entanglement in the Pacific sphere of economic activity even further

Japan and Germany both enjoyed strong industrial bases, good infrastructure and an educated population BEFORE the War
Japan still exerted strong economic influence over it's former colonies as well (where a lot of the consumer junk we enjoy today still comes from and comes from even more)

Many of us here are old enough to remember well the flood of German electronics into this country, then automobiles ever growing from the early '50s onward. And as for Japan? Their goods a bit later (remember Pearl Harbor, the buying public here resisted for a while) but eventually Americans got over that one, just take a look at Toyota for a good model/example..........and KENWOOD and Pioneer and JVC and SONY and on and on and on.............but it all started with cheap toys and pots and pans............the brunt of jokes during my childhood

It is a case of the best of intentions and at the same time growing complacent and being lulled into a false sense of security often enjoyed by the victors in any cataclysmic struggle. Without attempting to construct a doctoral thesis or tome, our best laid (geopolitical) efforts exceeded, I think, our wildest dreams, a Frankenstein's monster of sorts, and we have lived with it all of the decades following WWII..............and yes, by the 1970s greed may have certainly become a factor in some dealings but it was never the original intent.............one could say for example that the gas lines of the Carter years helped to solidify the Jap auto makers market here, or Iacocca opening the door for Mitsubishi built automobiles wearing Dodge and Plymouth name tags (that one still gets me the most)

Remember how initially, for the most part with the Japanese, it was more a matter of OUR technology and engineering married with THEIR execution? But that changed very quickly (think American automobiles, German cameras and eventually audio electronics) Semi Valley Marantz (starting with Superscope), Sherwood and "still headquartered in the U.S.A. Fisher products comes to mind...........and these examples are but a few

As for engineers? No Marshal Plan and back door visas for former Nazi employees, no Moon walk..............or ICBMs

A LOT of sharing and cross pollination but initially it was kept from public view (unless you were willing to dig really deep, deeper that the average consumer cared to)

Enough of this, but I just have to say that criticizing endlessly the evils of FREE market capitalism is an over simplification at best and simply plain ignorance at worst. What is happening at JBL (and a 100 other once great companies) is nothing more than a continuum of a series of events that started long ago, 1945 to be exact. Left as it was originally, things might have turned out differently (think Avery Fisher and his "Dutchmen")

What is happening at JBL TODAY is in large part the result of labor unions, the EPA and a myriad of other destructive domestic "progressive" GOVERNMENTAL (POLITICIANS and SPECIAL INTERESTS) actions as it is the fault of any "bean counter", CEO or board of directors

I'm not defending them (CEOs and Board Rooms), because in many instances they are the same scum bags who help elect the folks making up these rules of the "new game", because yes, they are greedy pigs. But my point is that who one elects to office in THIS COUNTRY does and will have long lasting effects eventually as well as short, and for the past 40 years or so, not so happy ones

That, and the fact that people's "wants" have been manipulated and changed through marketing and now this "group think" brought on by "social media" (the devil's eyeball) to the point of being unrecognizable

I started ranting about 25 years ago that the way things were going we'd soon be getting ALL of our news, entertainment, music and everything else under the Sun from the same (few) monolithic sources and via a handful of "providers" and through a singular device or delivery system technology

Not quite 100% there just yet, but for all practical purposes, that day is now

JBL and others hung on as long as they did thanks to the fact that much of their technology and innovation was proprietary and the environment they existed in at the time immediately following the War wasn't as yet so punitive towards their activities.................that and the fact that America enjoyed the lion's share of the greatest Audio minds there have ever been.................that and location (my remarks regarding the costs related to shipping such heavy consumer ("luxury") goods and an at the time an abundance of raw materials, namely a cheap and readily available supply of timber products)

I mean who the hell even sits around and grooves to a (good) STEREO system anymore anyway? In any sort of meaningful numbers from a manufacturing standpoint? The closest thing left is the "home theater" crowd, and 95% of them are perfectly happy with an all in one box of plastic shit "system" so there you have it, no engineering required just as long as it goes "tizz, BOOM" REAL LOUD,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and looks "cool"

It's over, and it's over in more ways than one


Well said.......you're dead on with your analysis


Lamont

[speakerdave]

I THINK I'm following some of this. I read Samuelson and had a course in the economic history of the US, both at the first college that opened after the ark landed. I remember German cars coming to America in the fifties, but I missed the electronics, unless Telefunken GIVING tubes to American amp makers is what is meant. I remember that during upswings, which was about half the time, in the early sixties you could walk in off the street in Buffalo NY and get hired at the Chevy plant, the Ford plant, Republic Steel, Bethlehem steel, Harrison radiator and a bunch of others and be issued a hat, goggles, gloves and a pair of work boots with steel toes and a metatarsal guard and go to work at a wage that would buy you a pair of flats in South Buffalo if you stuck with it. This was in the days before derivative instruments with elusive reality, when investment banking (capital formation?) was being done by gentlemanly types who were to a significant degree shepherding THEIR OWN MONEY into appropriate grazing. Around that time a farmer in Western New York commented in my hearing, "A 2% surplus can ruin any market." I've been busy with other things--Turn your back for five minutes!-- So I'm not sure how to think of the changes that have come about. With funds yellin' for only .25 to .50% and the banks taking a large proportion of that and buying government debt at 3%(?), is that exacerbating the real problem? How much of a surplus of capital might there already be in the world? I wonder if one were to look at capital as a commodity, if it could be argued that a gross surplus could have other bizarre effects besides the creation of tranks and swaps and colossal failures of common sense. I don't necessarily mean a global surplus. Capital is a moveable forager. Wherever an opportunity arises there is an immediate local surplus, driving down the value of other factors in wealth creation as it insists on its return. If anyone knows of reading that would help me approach this question sensibly, I would appreciate knowing about it.

[jlyons]

Wagner, "hasty" in name calling, eg 'stupid' regarding remarks about the history and present conditions at variance with your own analysis. Perhaps defiantly anti 'politically correct' re: racist pejorative "Japs" notwithstanding, we may differ on substance as well as form:
-Income Inequality is evidenced in this thread, where CEO Paliwel gets 13 million, and Greg Timbers less than 2 hundred thousand. Not equal?

Please do not hush those who prefer civil discourse, and don't take suggestion as personal attack.

[Wagner]

Wagner, "hasty" in name calling, eg 'stupid' regarding remarks about the history and present conditions at variance with your own analysis. Perhaps defiantly anti 'politically correct' re: racist pejorative "Japs" notwithstanding, we may differ on substance as well as form:
-Income Inequality is evidenced in this thread, where CEO Paliwel gets 13 million, and Greg Timbers less than 2 hundred thousand. Not equal?

Please do not hush those who prefer civil discourse, and don't take suggestion as personal attack.
We are all free to choose, and pursue, our own paths in the Country
What our "culture" and corporations place a value on, and how they measure it with money, rightly or wrongly so, is another subject altogether...............just take a look at the Arts (the record business comes to mind, the way it used to be anyway) or folks like the Kardashians

As for throwing around the terms "inequality" or "unfair" anytime a wrong, real or perceived is at hand, is in my opinion "stupid"

There is nothing in this World that would indicate that things (anything(s) are either "fair" or "equal"-they never have been and they never will be, that is Human nature

I agree, shafting people that got you to the dance is absolutely unethical-I believe I referred to some of those responsible for what was done to Mr. Timbers (and others) as "pigs" and douche bags" but that doesn't change the fact that that's the way it works (and I am not happy that things are that way)

I made a lot of money for a lot of people (a GREAT DEAL of money) during my working life; guess how many of them even said "thank you" and meant it, let alone compensated me appropriately financially?

My posts were made with regard to the annihilation of our manufacturing prowess and the subsequent (negative) ripple effect it is having on many of the people who helped make it all happen in the first place...............not a philosophical dissertation on modern "economics" which is little more than a philosophy than a discipline to begin with AND subject to constant change depending on the prevailing arguments and circumstances of the day (and the belief held by those holding the purse strings)

[Wagner]

I THINK I'm following some of this. I read Samuelson and had a course in the economic history of the US, both at the first college that opened after the ark landed. I remember German cars coming to America in the fifties, but I missed the electronics, unless Telefunken GIVING tubes to American amp makers is what is meant. I remember that during upswings, which was about half the time, in the early sixties you could walk in off the street in Buffalo NY and get hired at the Chevy plant, the Ford plant, Republic Steel, Bethlehem steel, Harrison radiator and a bunch of others and be issued a hat, goggles, gloves and a pair of work boots with steel toes and a metatarsal guard and go to work at a wage that would buy you a pair of flats in South Buffalo if you stuck with it. This was in the days before derivative instruments with elusive reality, when investment banking (capital formation?) was being done by gentlemanly types who were to a significant degree shepherding THEIR OWN MONEY into appropriate grazing. Around that time a farmer in Western New York commented in my hearing, "A 2% surplus can ruin any market." I've been busy with other things--Turn your back for five minutes!-- So I'm not sure how to think of the changes that have come about. With funds yellin' for only .25 to .50% and the banks taking a large proportion of that and buying government debt at 3%(?), is that exacerbating the real problem? How much of a surplus of capital might there already be in the world? I wonder if one were to look at capital as a commodity if it could be argued that a gross surplus could have other bizarre effects besides the creation of tranks and swaps and colossal failures of common sense. I don't necessarily mean a global surplus. Capital is a moveable forager. Wherever an opportunity arises there is an immediate local surplus, driving down the value of other factors in wealth creation as it insists on its return. If anyone knows of reading that would help me approach this question sensibly, I would appreciate knowing about it.
Plenty of German electronics but not as destructive to our industry as the Japanese Invasion of the late '60s through the '70s; Telefunken, SABA, Blaupunkt, Studer-Revox (Swiss), and the family tree (now defunct) of BASF-Magnetophon-AEG and on and on......................much more than those "give away" tubes you referred and held in high regard by those who could afford them.

The Japanese were never founders of technological culture, rather the "bearers" of ideas borrowed from conquered and colonized peoples in that they have an innate ability to take anything and improve upon it to the point that it is superior in performance as well as cost to produce* and inevitably consuming/assuming the identity of the original design (think Samurai swords, meaning the blades; chinese creation but perfected by the Japanese
What happened to our automotive, electronics and optical industries was simply an ironic "shoe on the other foot" reversal of roles
Quite the ramble, still a good read:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ik793cAAL._SX312_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
*The tables have turned on Japan (and others) regarding this age old inherent ability, tradition and reality thanks to the same forces and propaganda that we as a nation and the E.U. have bought into, the "global" economy "new world order" nonsense, widening the gap between the "haves" and have nots" to proportions never imaginable before.............these experiments only work out for a little while and once the "wow" factor wears off (DVD layers for only $19.95) you wind up with even more folks so angry with their lives that the collapse of the whole rotten edifice is right around the corner
Just look around the World today

It is nothing more than Colonialism all dressed up in new clothes, implemented with worthless currencies and promises, rather the barrel of a gun or shackles

[Ed Kreamer]

Colleagues;

For those who might want to look into some readable and understandable books, ( Economics can be arcane) Free to Choose, by Milton and Rose Friedman and Economics in One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt. These were required reading ( along with the Samuelson book) when I was in college when dinosaurs ruled the earth.

Ed

[Wagner]

Colleagues;

For those who might want to look into some readable and understandable books, ( Economics can be arcane) Free to Choose, by Milton and Rose Friedman and Economics in One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt. These were required reading ( along with the Samuelson book) when I was in college when dinosaurs ruled the earth.

Ed
"Economics" is little more than another religion all dressed up as a discipline at institutions of "higher" learning

And 99.9% of it is based on hindsight (the "digital age" is proving that quite well)

Sometimes some of them ("philosophies" or "schools") work for some, other times not so much

None have proven very durable, let alone universal and all subject to often unintended consequences without constant tinkering

I subscribe to common sense and simply observing the deals and trends going down around me

It's all about logistics

[Ed Kreamer]

In response I would say that free markets work better than anything else, no matter how reprehensible some business practices are. I rest my case.

[Wagner]

In response I would say that free markets work better than anything else, no matter how reprehensible some business practices are. I rest my case.
I thought I was agreeing with you................and I am, when they are truly "free" and not the result of government interference, manipulations and subsidies but rather conducted by the actual parties involved with the creation of the goods

Thomas

[hsosdrum]

The 2216nd actually comes form consumer, it is Jerry Moro's design.
As are those synthesis small monitors, too...

And when Charles Sprinkle designed the Image Control waveguide he was also part of JBL Consumer; he wisely moved over to JBL Pro soon thereafter (and they wisely snapped him up).

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think they share intellectual property. But l guess if you were not under the Pro cost centre on DDay you might be ear market for the front door.

[Ian Mackenzie]

The historical account of post war Eco re construction is interesting but more recent events; the rise of China's economy and it impact on global trade; then the GFC and its epicentre in the US banking system; the sharp fall off in USA manufacturing employment that followed with the recession in 2009 paved the way for what is the 5 year plans most large business and CEOs look at with floated company's. Most of them are around for that long and it takes that long to implement large scale change. Given the technologies under the Harman banner a global market makes sense as does capitalising on the strong auto markets. The entry into lifestyle markets is more a "me too" effort in an already crowded market.

Interestingly l watched a documentary on the 2015 Mustang last night. They are on sale here (Aust) as Ford has dropped the Falcon which has been in manufacture in Aust for 40 years. There are no doubt job losses as a result.

The decisions of what goes on and where are much the same with Ford and Harman. The CEOs probably share a game of golf.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing it was going to happen (Norhridge- that is not the point) it's the "How" it was done given Greg and more recently Jerry held the batton of the Iconic Brand over such a long tenure.

The current CEO has stolen the brand and left structural unemployment of highly skilled engineers in its wake.

Will JBL transducer development continue remains to be seen but in the absence of Greg the continuance of the statement system is unlikely.

[Ed Kreamer]

Originally posted by Wagner
I thought I was agreeing with you................and I am, when they are truly "free" and not the result of government interference, manipulations and subsidies but rather conducted by the actual parties involved with the creation of the goods

We do agree Thomas. All the Government can do is screw things up. Friedman and Hazlitt think so also. I once read a great piece by Mona Charon "If the Government was put in charge of the Sahara in two years there would be a sand shortage and in five years they would run out of sand".

Back to the thread: These yahoos are free to treat Greg and Jerry anyway they choose, but there is a price for everything. They eventually will pay it.

Ed

[BMWCCA]

If everyone has had their off-topic say in this thread, I'd suggest the Mods perform a clean-up on aisle Another sad day for JBL (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?38066-Another-sad-day-for-JBL).

This is, after all, in the Lansing Product Forum/Lansing Product General Information Forum. This thread has degenerated into not even General Audio Discussion but in fact should be in the Non-Audio Forum under "Off Topic".

Please let's get back to our JBL discussion and our new ex-Harman-employee friends.

This is not a rhetorical statement open for debate or snarky reply. Consider it a plea for sanity, if nothing else. :banghead:

[Ian Mackenzie]

Okay

Let ask Greg how many no "Tie days" he had during his career at JBL?

[Mr. Widget]

This is, after all, in the Lansing Product Forum/Lansing Product General Information Forum. This thread has degenerated into not even General Audio Discussion but in fact should be in the Non-Audio Forum under "Off Topic".
You are absolutely right. I was thinking the same thing earlier today, but it takes a fair amount of work to untangle twisted threads like this. If another moderator has time to take this on that would be great... if not, I'll try to take this task on later.



Widget

[1audiohack]

OK BMW;

Should we all just line up and say "aint life a bitch!" Boring.

Many of us see this as tragic and are just trying to make sense of the nonsense. Some of us are aquainted with these people and this is upsetting.

If one of them were taken out by a drunk driver do you think we could avoid a discourse on impaired driving?

Barry.

[Ducatista47]

Every corporation that creates things needs someone who reads the Wall Street Journal. That is one employee, and not in charge. It seems Harman and by ownership JBL and Revel have not fit this model for decades. When their structure began to resemble an insurance conglomerate, they were lost but fortunately the actual death was a slow motion affair. I can imagine it was not fortunate for all. It can’t be pleasant to work in a death by a thousand cuts situation. On its best day it would be like working on a line with a foreman looking over your shoulder 24/7, admonishing “If you don’t make production, you can be replaced by someone who can.”

In five plus decades of the working life my favorite jobs have involved very small companies that created things or offered services to creative people. My favorite job was fine art level photo reproduction with a concern that had eight employees including the owner and his wife. In my universe once a corporation segues from creating to financial and market manipulation as its primary thrust, it has lost its soul. The corollary is that any company that creates nothing but wealth has no soul to begin with. Making cool stuff cannot be its own reward if you do not make stuff at all.

I do know of one corporation that had a system that worked in both office and goods departments. Honda was founded by a passionate man. In his time at the helm everything they made had an engine so they never left their core reason for existence behind. R & D was autonomous and connected to corporate with only one string. Their budget was a fixed percentage of sales. Think about it. No one looked over their shoulders or meddled with phone calls or meetings with bean counters. If they designed things that were not practical, their budget dropped. Also, their less experienced engineers were sent to work in the racing division, the opposite of their competitors. Another touch, Mr. Honda toured every facility from time to time. Worldwide. He personally met every employee hired since his last visit and planted a tree on the grounds with him. He was the one who coined the term associates, not Walmart, and everyone in the plant wore the same overalls.

As to the future endeavors of engineers late of Harman, I don’t know how many speaker companies in the US aside from Eminence make their own transducers, but there are some who create and sell designs, are small, and don’t try to get rich with each sale. Unfortunately they tend to avoid California. More like Green Bay and St Louis, when it comes to transducers. I think it may be time to bring back kit or build your own cabinet speakers. That would be refreshing after years of unobtainable replacement transducers.

“Hold on to your Vintage products and hope that you can find a way to get parts when things wear out. None of this will involve Harman any longer!”

This quote from Greg does simplify things for owners. We can hopefully reach, without acrimony, consensus on what aftermarket parts are closest to spec and concentrate on helping each other out and being a positive community. It should be easier to be positive having been freed from loyalty to the present and future versions of Harman.

The way to civilize the discourse here could be as simple as writing as if you are face to face with someone instead of on Facebook. Then again, I have been accused of being too nice sometimes. Trusting people to do the right thing and all that.

[LowPhreak]

Well said.......you're dead on with your analysis


Lamont


No, Wagner is dead wrong in several areas. For example:

"...one could say for example that the gas lines of the Carter years..." is an attempt to inject a certain ideological spin on a situation that existed well before Carter took office in Jan. 1977. The gas shortages actually began during Nixon's last term, before he resigned in August 1974:


The 1973 oil crisis began in October 1973 when the members of the Organization of Arab Petroleum Exporting Countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Arab_Petroleum_Exporting_Countries ) (OAPEC, consisting of the Arab (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab) members of OPEC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC) plus Egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) and Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria)) proclaimed an oil embargo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embargo). By the end of the embargo in March 1974,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis#cite_note-USstate2ndCrisis-1) the price of oil had risen from $3 per barrel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_%28unit%29#Oil_barrel) to nearly $12 globally; US prices were significantly higher. The oil crisis, or "shock", the embargo caused had many short-term and long-term effects on global politics and the global economy.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis#cite_note-cbc-2) It was later called the "first oil shock", followed by the 1979 oil crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_oil_crisis), termed the "second oil shock."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisisAs)

I remember waiting in gas lines as a kid in my grandparent's 1960s Pontiac Catalina in upstate NY, but only on the odd or even calendar dates (whatever number their license plate ended with), and it was before anyone outside of Georgia had heard of Jimmy Carter. Here's a chart from the wiki:


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Oil_price_chronology-june2007.gif


Notice that acquisition costs and hence prices at the pump spiked again during Reagan, following the "second oil crisis" of 1979 near the end of Carter's term. It's all in the wiki.

I don't mind someone having a political viewpoint, even if it is not particularly germane to the topic at hand, but don't try to revise history to conveniently fit your spin.

[JeffW]

So THAT's why Jerry got laid off :applaud:

[Alobar]

What a stupid remark..............if you need a target to "hate" on then try the sheeple with their voting and buying habits...........along with their THEIR "sad and disgusting" ignorance and gullibility

No one (not many anyway) wants to think long term anymore and no one wants to pay the price of good stewardship, so there you have it

A great deal of over analysis here and deep philosophical :bs:-this began long long ago, JBL simply was able to resist the inevitable longer than many

It was and is the stupidity of the majority of Americans that is responsible for this decline in our manufacturing base-we have no else to blame but ourselves....................that and the "digital narcotic" that's rotting the brains of the current generation

Thomas


No, Wagner is dead wrong in several areas. For example:

"...one could say for example that the gas lines of the Carter years..." is an attempt to inject a certain ideological spin on a situation that existed well before Carter took office in Jan. 1977. The gas shortages actually began during Nixon's last term, before he resigned in August 1974:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisisAs)

I remember waiting in gas lines as a kid in my grandparent's 1960s Pontiac Catalina in upstate NY, but only on the odd or even calendar dates (whatever number their license plate ended with), and it was before anyone outside of Georgia had heard of Jimmy Carter. Here's a chart from the wiki:

Yes this is how I recall it as well, oil "crisis" starting in the Nixon years. That doesn't mean Nixion had a hand in it either however. Presidents often have less control than we give the office credit for. As far as spin goes, both left and the right do it to sell their ideology. It almost always involves a gross oversimplification of the issue being spun in order to make it sound logical to an electorate eager to justify support for the candidate of their political party. This mindless party politics seems to play heavily on the need for hot button issues and supports the need that people have to belong to something bigger than themselves. I tend to be sensitive to spin because for some strange reason I try to understand both sides of an issue before making up my mind, and even then remain open to new information, sort of like the scientific method is supposed to do (when politics doesn't have it by the balls such as "global warming" for instance). Because of this I am constantly being shot at from both sides, appear to be wishy washy or don't seem to take a strong stance on anything. I am always amazed by how firmly people grip their own beliefs on how the world works. To some, government is always bad and yet it appears some of the best educated, wealthiest and healthiest countries in the world are socialized. Speaking on these lines it isn't too terribly far off before machines, robots, artificial intelligence and what have you are going to be taking everyone's job and then (much to the dismay of right wingers) we'll all be out of work and on public assistance. If a computer can set down an airliner on a runway with a few hundred zillion lines of code it wont be long before some machine can do brain surgery or some robot will care for us in the old folks home. Like Dylan sang, "Oh the times they are a changing" has never been more true.

I hope I haven't crapped on this thread. Just want to say that the reason for these seemingly immoral and idiotic decisions and directions that corporations make are not cut and dried and to oversimplify them is never very accurate.

[hsosdrum]

Okay

Let ask Greg how many no "Tie days" he had during his career at JBL?

I don't recall ever seeing Greg (or Jerry either, for that matter) wearing a necktie during my four years at Harman. Perhaps they did when doing dog-and-pony shows for visiting big-shots, but I was never invited to any of those. (Harman wisely kept the cranky tech writer out of public view.)

[JeffW]

As far as spin goes, both left and the right do it to sell their ideology. It almost always involves a gross oversimplification of the issue being spun in order to make it sound logical to an electorate eager to justify support for the candidate of their political party. This mindless party politics seems to play heavily on the need for hot button issues and supports the need that people have to belong to something bigger than themselves ... I am always amazed by how firmly people grip their own beliefs on how the world works.

That's why, in the entire history of the internet, no argument concerning politics has ever been "won" on a message board. Argued endlessly? You bet. But both sides want to win, so neither concedes, and the argument continues. Many message boards ban discussions of politics and religion for this very reason, or have a sandbox forum for the combatants to occupy - out of the main body of the discussion forums. The endless, unyielding arguments breed animosity, dividing the board members who presumably joined the board for a common cause. It never ends, and it never ends well.

Who knows, maybe this board will be the first in history to solve all the world's problems in a peaceful manner. Bets, anyone?

[JuniorJBL]

I don't recall ever seeing Greg (or Jerry either, for that matter) wearing a necktie during my four years at Harman. Perhaps they did when doing dog-and-pony shows for visiting big-shots, but I was never invited to any of those. (Harman wisely kept the cranky tech writer out of public view.)


No, but Greg did wear some really cool JBL socks to one GTG!! :applaud:

[Alobar]

That's why, in the entire history of the internet, no argument concerning politics has ever been "won" on a message board. Argued endlessly? You bet. But both sides want to win, so neither concedes, and the argument continues. Many message boards ban discussions of politics and religion for this very reason, or have a sandbox forum for the combatants to occupy - out of the main body of the discussion forums. The endless, unyielding arguments breed animosity, dividing the board members who presumably joined the board for a common cause. It never ends, and it never ends well.

Who knows, maybe this board will be the first in history to solve all the world's problems in a peaceful manner. Bets, anyone?

Now that would be something I'd be proud to participate in! :spin:

[Robh3606]

Can we refrain from the geopolitical and just stick with JBL. I would like to clean this up but it might just be best to just close it. It's a bit of a mess in there.

Rob:)

[Horn Fanatic]

Can we refrain from the geopolitical and just stick with JBL. I would like to clean this up but it might just be best to just close it. It's a bit of a mess in there.

Rob:)

I agree.

[LowPhreak]

Yes, let us get back to the OT. I just wanted to point out a thing or two since I saw Wagner going off the wall there, as he is prone to do on occasion. To some extent I do too sometimes. No harm, no foul IMO.

On the other hand, as a professor once said to me: one definition of "politics" is - "who gets what". I thought it sounded trite at the time...too simplistic...but later it started to make sense. It caused me to consider that in most areas of life, we all engage in some form of "politics" every day - such as at work, in public, even at home with family & friends. Do we not?

In the case here with the engineers and the situation at Harmin', it was definitely a political move in that sense. It's inevitable that some of us would discuss it in that context.

[BMWCCA]

In the case here with the engineers and the situation at Harmin', it was definitely a political move in that sense. It's inevitable that some of us would discuss it in that context.
Discussing it in the context of the original topic is one thing. Deteriorating to the point of simply hearing yourself speak, pontificate, and demean others has been the hallmark of threads here recently. That's what needs to stop.

In case this thread gets locked, I'd like everyone to remember that JBL's loss here is the brilliant contributions of Greg and Jerry and we've enjoyed the unprecedented benefit hearing this news and reaction from Greg himself. I fear the rest of this thread has betrayed and potentially lost the trust that Greg put in this group as shown by his willingness to share his thoughts with us. I'd hate to lose that source of learned contribution going forward—simply because we screwed-the-pooch!
:banghead:

[brutal]

IBTL

Sad to hear of more shenanigans at Harman Mr. Timbers, truly sad.

I'm going to go hug my 250Ti's again before turning in.

[tomee]

I am very sad to see this era of JBL excellence being dismantled bit by bit. Hearing about fantastic experience, creativity and knowledge just being wasted is indeed discouraging. It is especially disappointing to hear about the way this is being done and the apparent lack of insight in the JBL brand value & heritage at Harman Group. That is where it all started.

It is brilliant that Mr Timbers does take the time to help us out here on the forum. Such help/ information is invaluable, especially for us that make our living in completely other areas and have started to understand that the more we learn the less we know. Hat’s off.

I’m an investment banker by trade & profession and I took a look at the Harman Group’s numbers . The story becomes brutally clear when reading them. The other business areas are growing rapidly with increasing earnings while “Professional” is more or less at a standstill since several years. If this is due to that the group resources have been allocated to the other divisions or the fact that there are more car & mobile phone owners in the world than audiophiles is difficult to se. The acquisition in the group lately has also been targeted towards the other divisions. In 2015 the “Infotainment ” now “Connected Car” division grew beyond 3 times the size of “Professional” and with an nominal EBITDA growth of 33% while “Professional“ only had 8%. “Lifestyle”, where “Luxury Audio” is a piece alongside automotive and others, is about twice the size of “Professional” and when looking at the presentations there is no doubt that the “automotive” & “portable” part seems to be where the growth is . The writing has been on the wall for some time it appears.

....

//RoB

very well said! Thank you for putting the time into that post.

IMHO without "JBL Pro" the other divisions have little or no reputation! Having the link to pro-sound is what helps buyers looking at high profit gizmos and gadgets, like blue-tooth speakers, take JBL seriously!!! I know this because that is why my daughter wants one of these things - she recognizes the JBL logo. Everyone does because they see it at concerts and movie theatres!!!
Maybe they think they'll do all pro-sound development in Brazil, at Selenium?

I hope that everyone being let go by JBL can find challenging work with people that value them for their knowledge and skills.

[Ed Kreamer]

So, With all this taking place at jbl, is it also taking place at Revel? If not, why not?

[4345]

Thanks for keeping us up to date and informed. Too bad Harman could not keep a small manufacturing facility in the USA to service vintage products and produce a high end retro-line. Instead of Mr. Paliwal getting millions, it would have been wiser to invest in their reputation and brand. Mcintosh still produces in the USA, and probably profitably. I am sure by keeping their production here, it helps their brands' status immeasurably. Maybe a group of us can buy back the JBL brand once Harman goes into bankruptcy in a few years!

[edgewound]

I have had the pleasure of meeting and speaking extensively with Greg Timbers a few years ago at the unveiling of Everest II at CES. Jerry Moro was there, too. Both exceeding talented engineers. The man that designed the VGC technology, Doug Button, had left a few years prior.

Never in my life have I met a more unassuming, humble, down-to-earth engineer that absolutely lived for what he does...and did. It was pretty clear back then that the future of JBL in the USA was cloudy at best. Upper management had no plans to introduce the best of JBL Consumer to the US market that was readily available in Japan. I asked why? He simply shrugged. Wasn't his job to market....just design great stuff.

The Professional Division has been putting out product for the last ten years that is absolutely unworthy of the brand to the working musician... to the absolutely most expensive high-end that only top touring sound companies and theaters can afford. No middle ground, work-horse systems anymore like the bullet-proof Cabaret series of the 1980s-90s.

This unceremonious, insulting, escort-out-of-the building, dismissal of such talent that built the brand over decades is plain criminal to investors as well as consumers. At some point, the JBL brand marketers will not be able to rely on "JBL Professional Sound at Home", because the R&D guys have been kicked out the door, the technology will not exist at JBL, Dinesh Paliwal will take his fortune...laughing all the way to the bank...to "turn around" another multi-national conglomerate he knows nothing about, except an 8 figure payday....and strip it's heritage as well.

New Harman management has left a wake of destruction in it's path...and nobody there cares anymore.

Sad days at JBL, indeed.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Every brilliant invention had a beginning.
HARMAN is dedicated to providing hands-on, real-world work experience to help students and recent graduates like you who are in the beginning career stages prepare for the next step in the professional world. As an intern, you are an integral part of the team and relied upon to share your unique perspective. The ability to apply original thinking to solve problems and create opportunities is something we embrace. With newly acquired knowledge and skills, our recent graduates are ready to make their mark on the world.

Explore all of our opportunities and find a role that will help you showcase your potential.

Audiophiles from every generation call on HARMAN to deliver the best in sound in the studio and on the stage, at home and on the go. HARMAN’s portfolio of legendary audio brands includes AKG®, Harman Kardon®, Infinity®, JBL®, Lexicon®, Mark Levinson®and Revel®. More than 25 million vehicles on the road today enjoy an enhanced driving experience, thanks to HARMAN audio and infotainment. We extend the same spirit of innovation to the world’s leading performance and sporting venues, providing everyone with the best seats in the house.
Seizing the rich opportunities of today’s global markets requires more than legendary sound.


http://www.harman.com/careers

A glance at the Harman Corporate careers pages and then reading the opening post of this thread one cannot help but think what went wrong leading to the demise of Greg and more recently Jerry.

It takes time to create talent and who could be more appropriate to inspire, lead and mentor a team than Greg and Jerry.

It's also very un American what happened but then given the leadership what would you expect.

If the nut case that did this is reading this and thinks he is being shamed you are correct.

[DS-21]

So, With all this taking place at jbl, is it also taking place at Revel? If not, why not?

The Revel Performa3 line uses lightly-modified SB Acoustics drivers rather than parts designed in house. All ceramic magnets rather than neo, too.

[JuniorJBL]

If the nut case that did this is reading this and thinks he is being shamed you are correct.

Well put Ian!

[SEAWOLF97]

At some point, the JBL brand marketers will not be able to rely on "JBL Professional Sound at Home", because the R&D guys have been kicked out the door, the technology will not exist at JBL, Dinesh Paliwal will take his fortune...laughing all the way to the bank...to "turn around" another multi-national conglomerate he knows nothing about, except an 8 figure payday....and strip it's heritage as well.

New Harman management has left a wake of destruction in it's path...and nobody there cares anymore.

Sad days at JBL, indeed.

I'll bet Dinesh Paliwal doesn't even know who Andy Grove was ..

Andy Grove was the godfather of modern tech CEOs

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2016/03/25/andy-grove-was-the-godfather-of-modern-tech-ceos/

He was CEO at Intel when I was there. legendary , and made the atmosphere fun.

[Mr. Widget]

JBL (Harman Luxury) laid off 3 more employees yesterday. Their seniority totaled over 70 years. The big hit was Jerry Moro. Jerry's work is legendary and his transducers have been featured in most of my designs for years.I recently was fortunate enough to receive (4) 1501AL-2 woofers to upgrade my DD66000s to the DD67000s. Needless to say the months of effort required for me to acquire these was well worth it. Here is a case where Jerry Moro was able to take an amazing driver and further refine it making it even more amazing. The idea that there will be no more pushing the envelope to achieve impossibly great drivers and speaker designs at JBL is so sad. For me personally, I have a number of fantastic JBLs by this team and will continue to enjoy them I hope for many years... but for there to be no 75th Anniversary JBL or beyond is so shortsighted.

A successful company and a brand is more than a great P&L statement. It is great employees, satisfied loyal customers, and if you're lucky enough to last... an amazing heritage that you can build on. So sad.


Widget

[1audiohack]

Below is a link to a Ted Talk. This is a positive talk in what leadership is and is not.

I think this answers, for me at least why I/we deep down feel the way we do about the antics at Harman.

If you don't watch it all, start about 20 minutes in, the gist of this starts about 25 minutes in. Just watch it all. :)


https://youtu.be/ReRcHdeUG9Y

All the best,
Barry.

[4313B]

Thanks for the link. I thought it was worth watching the whole 45 minutes.

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks for that... I'll check it out soon.


Widget

[JeffW]

Interesting talk!

On a slightly related tangent, PBS (at least my affiliate) has their Series Premier of TED Talks tonight after NOVA.

[Steve Schell]

I recall what I now very much think of as the "good old days" of the early and mid 2000s when Don McRitchie and I were treated as VIPs at JBL and were granted interviews with such luminaries as Greg Timbers, Jerry Moro and Doug Button. How I wish I had video of every second of those encounters! My memories of those times are now a bit scattered, but full of admiration for those fine gentlemen as well as for Mark Gander and the late John Eargle who were passionate about preserving the history of JBL and saw to it that we were given access.

[Titanium Dome]

I recall what I now very much think of as the "good old days" of the early and mid 2000s when Don McRitchie and I were treated as VIPs at JBL and were granted interviews with such luminaries as Greg Timbers, Jerry Moro and Doug Button. How I wish I had video of every second of those encounters! My memories of those times are now a bit scattered, but full of admiration for those fine gentlemen as well as for Mark Gander and the late John Eargle who were passionate about preserving the history of JBL and saw to it that we were given access.

Steve

Those good old days lasted until 2014 when we had the last Lansing Heritage Awards. Think about the awardees and their attendance over three years.

2012 Greg Timbers
2013 Jerry Moro, Doug Button, Greg Timbers
2014 Mark Gander, Dan Ashcraft, Paul Bente, Jerry Moro, Doug Button, Greg Timbers (and Don McRitchie came, too)

Little did we know that the 2014 event in particular would be a last chance to see many of the greats of JBL heritage (the true spirit of James B. Lansing's JBL, not JBL the Harman brand) together and listen to their stories, get their opinions, and witness their camaraderie. JBL the Harman brand is extinct to many of us, but JBL still exists in the memories, hearts, and minds of these wonderful people and those of us who cherish the heritage.

The Lansing Heritage Awards were never about the JBL by Harman brand but about JBL the people who created the products we love. Now that the people are gone from Harman, who cares about the future of JBL the brand? As for the good old days, they can still be realized through the JBL heritage of living people.

I'm no longer in LA, but maybe it's time to look to the Central Coast or Bay area. Anyone ready for another Lansing Heritage gathering? That seems to be one way to keep the heritage alive.

[4313B]

who cares about the future of JBL the brand?I can't imagine a scenario in which I could possibly care less.

[JuniorJBL]

Steve

Those good old days lasted until 2014 when we had the last Lansing Heritage Awards. Think about the awardees and their attendance over three years.

2012 Greg Timbers
2013 Jerry Moro, Doug Button, Greg Timbers
2014 Mark Gander, Dan Ashcraft, Paul Bente, Jerry Moro, Doug Button, Greg Timbers (and Don McRitchie came, too)

Little did we know that the 2014 event in particular would be a last chance to see many of the greats of JBL heritage (the true spirit of James B. Lansing's JBL, not JBL the Harman brand) together and listen to their stories, get their opinions, and witness their camaraderie. JBL the Harman brand is extinct to many of us, but JBL still exists in the memories, hearts, and minds of these wonderful people and those of us who cherish the heritage.

The Lansing Heritage Awards were never about the JBL by Harman brand but about JBL the people who created the products we love. Now that the people are gone from Harman, who cares about the future of JBL the brand? As for the good old days, they can still be realized through the JBL heritage of living people.

I'm no longer in LA, but maybe it's time to look to the Central Coast or Bay area. Anyone ready for another Lansing Heritage gathering? That seems to be one way to keep the heritage alive.

Well I know a couple of guys from the Denver area who would be there! ;)

[srm51555]

Thanks for the link. I thought it was worth watching the whole 45 minutes.

+1

[Hoerninger]

Who cares about the future of JBL the brand?
Maybe there happened nasty things, that is not my point. Things come up and go down, that's life.
Once apon a time we had In Germany the important firm KLANGFILM for cinema equipment, sold in the seventies.
The knowledge about it and the name itself are nearly lost.
In this forum we had once a short discussion about the Klangfilm Kugelwellentrichter (spherical wave horn) which gave a slight boost in the web.
For those who are interested in in a historical review of the Kugelwellentrichter and who can read German you can find an anthologie made by me at VISATON: http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread.php?t=27995

We live with the memory of our good times.
__________
Peter

[badman]

I can't imagine a scenario in which I could possibly care less.

If they went somewhat similar to the Great Plains Audio way and Greg and Doug and others all started a "Retro JBL", I could care again about the brand. As long as they're on their current path, I'll be happy to spend my money with Beyma, 18sound, Faital, and others who are making top-notch products.

[Wagner]

I can't imagine a scenario in which I could possibly care less.
Agreed, the "brand" (and cash flow) will be just fine (for a while anyway)............................it's the PRODUCT that's being exterminated

I think people confuse the difference

[hsosdrum]

Steve

Those good old days lasted until 2014 when we had the last Lansing Heritage Awards. Think about the awardees and their attendance over three years.

2012 Greg Timbers
2013 Jerry Moro, Doug Button, Greg Timbers
2014 Mark Gander, Dan Ashcraft, Paul Bente, Jerry Moro, Doug Button, Greg Timbers (and Don McRitchie came, too)

Little did we know that the 2014 event in particular would be a last chance to see many of the greats of JBL heritage (the true spirit of James B. Lansing's JBL, not JBL the Harman brand) together and listen to their stories, get their opinions, and witness their camaraderie. JBL the Harman brand is extinct to many of us, but JBL still exists in the memories, hearts, and minds of these wonderful people and those of us who cherish the heritage.

The Lansing Heritage Awards were never about the JBL by Harman brand but about JBL the people who created the products we love. Now that the people are gone from Harman, who cares about the future of JBL the brand? As for the good old days, they can still be realized through the JBL heritage of living people.

I'm no longer in LA, but maybe it's time to look to the Central Coast or Bay area. Anyone ready for another Lansing Heritage gathering? That seems to be one way to keep the heritage alive.

That would certainly be worth my driving up from the L.A. area. :bouncy:

[mech986]

I'll be in Paso Robles next week Thursday through Monday for the L'Eroica bicycle event. Maybe we should consider holding near that time. Course it may conflict with tax time.

What part of the coast are you residing in now Ti?

[mech986]

requesting info on JBL capacitors - thread link below. I'm unable to send a PM to Greg so asking if he see this to comment, plus any other input from members welcome.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?38276-JBL-OEM-film-caps-used-in-L19-4301-and-other-70-80-s-era-paging-4313B-or-GT&p=390814#post390814