New Project : DIY 4438

[Ralf]

I think at present about a possibility of achieving deepest frequencies, max. pressure and natural sound .
I could be inspired from the 4435.

Here is a first study with two 2242H, one 2234H and the 2344A/2426...

[dancing-dave]

I can just hear that speaker going "WHUMP!"

[Hofmannhp]

....with two 2242H, one 2234H and the 2344A/2426...
Hi Ralf,

nice idea.....but what's the job for the 2234? When crossing the woofer section to the 2344 with about 1 kHz, for my opinion the problem may be the 800 - 1kHz. I would prefer a 10" or 12" for the lower mids, with less cone distortion in this frequency area... think about to use a 2441 with a good horn and try to set the crossover frequency to the woofers to 700-800 Hz. An additional 2405 maybe also give a fine and "crispy" sound.

(only my "1 cent")

HP

[Ralf]

Hi Ralf,

nice idea.....but what's the job for the 2234? When crossing the woofer section to the 2344 with about 1 kHz, for my opinion the problem may be the 800 - 1kHz. I would prefer a 10" or 12" for the lower mids, with less cone distortion in this frequency area... think about to use a 2441 with a good horn and try to set the crossover frequency to the woofers to 700-800 Hz. An additional 2405 maybe also give a fine and "crispy" sound.

(only my "1 cent")

HP Hi Hans-Peter,

I would cut off the both 2242 at 100 Hz or less. So it makes sense with an additional driver for the lower mids. Why you thing it`s a problem to cut the 2234H at 1k? it`s the same situation as in your 4435...

[Ralf]

The 2344 isn`t available on the market. I have only one at the moment.

Is it possible to get the new OASR horn? Driver should be 2417???

Or what is with the 2451H? What horn could be used? Questions over questions...

:confused:

[TimG]

I'm currently waiting for an adapter so I can measure the P Audio pseudo clone of the 2344 with a 2426H and should have results in about a week. I'll simulate a modified 4430 crossover to use it with my 2234H and I can post a schematic. The 2451 has a 1.5" throat so any of the horns used with the 2430 could be used with this driver. You can get a 2381 or 2383 horn directly from JBL to use with this driver http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Horn%20List/04%20Horn%20Parts%20List%20.pdf but it does not have response all the way to 20kHz. You would probably want to add a supertweeter above 10kHz. I also know where you can buy some barely used 2451s for $450.

[Ralf]

ok. what we have now:

2 x 2242H
active Network for the 2242: modified 5235A with BX6 tuning

1 x mid bass driver ??? Guido has suggested the 2123H?

1 x 1,5" horn ??? maybe with 2451 neodymium driver

1 x 2405 passive network starting from 10kHz


@TimG: isn`t it that the 2344 clone is a 1,5" horn?

@all: has anybody hear the OASR horn?
What you think about this idea?

[Hofmannhp]

[QUOTE=Ralf]...... Guido has suggested the 2123H?
......1 x 2405 passive network starting from 10kHz ....
QUOTE]

Hi Ralf,

that sounds fine to me.....

for my opinion the 2234 in your first assy has not very much to do in the frequency range it is built for and the 2123 can handle the lower mids a lot better. Congratulations for your decision to take an additional 2405 (in this frequency range also the 4435 needs assistance)

HP

(PS: next weekend (sat 7:00pm and sun from 2:00pm )we celebrate a small xmas fest in my garage, opened for all to come .....if you like, ...and please tell it to Guido)

[Zilch]

Mid-bass? 2206, of course. Gotta keep up with those dual 18's. :D

I, too, am hoping Tim will find opportunity to try the 2344A clone with a 1.5" driver like the 2451 suggested. Does it provide any VHF extension?

It is, indeed, 1.5", but adapts down to 1" for 2426.

I KNOW y'all like the 2405 for UHF, but 2404 would be a better match for 2344 mids, no? The one occasion I have seen 4435 "enhanced" with a supplemental UHF drivers, that's what was used....

[Guido]

ok. what we have now:

2 x 2242H
active Network for the 2242: modified 5235A with BX6 tuning

1 x mid bass driver ??? Guido has suggested the 2123H?

1 x 1,5" horn ??? maybe with 2451 neodymium driver

1 x 2405 passive network starting from 10kHz


@TimG: isn`t it that the 2344 clone is a 1,5" horn?

@all: has anybody hear the OASR horn?
What you think about this idea?
Low Mid 2123H or 2012H

1,5" PAudio PH-316 (2344 clone), see:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2519&page=2&highlight=316
I would go with the 2430

I would suggest only on active xover. Low mid, mid and high should be passive!

[Ralf]

Mid-bass? 2206, of course. Gotta keep up with those dual 18's. :D

I, too, am hoping Tim will find opportunity to try the 2344A clone with a 1.5" driver like the 2451 suggested. Does it provide any VHF extension?

It is, indeed, 1.5", but adapts down to 1" for 2426.

I KNOW y'all like the 2405 for UHF, but 2404 would be a better match for 2344 mids, no? The one occasion I have seen 4435 "enhanced" with a supplemental UHF drivers, that's what was used....

Hi zilch,

look at my avatar. I tested both the 2405 and the 2404 with 2344/2426J and what you think is inside now?
Right! The 2405. It has the "crispy" (HP`s definition) sound and that is what I prefer. But everybody has an other taste...

For the mid bass: this is the most important part of the system. I use the 2206 in my blue tops for party employment because I wanted most power compression. But in this system we need a driver which is more linear...

[Earl K]

Hi Ralf

If it was my project, I'd focus on upgrading all the chosen cone drivers to JBLs' 1/2" deep-gap types. To my ears they offer "truer and tighter" resolution .

The challenge if you go this route will be to design in circuit compensations to deal with the typically "rising" frequency response curves that these newer drivers have . It's a hassle - but I believe it's well worth the effort .

I prefer 10" drivers over 12(s) so that would have me chosing the 2012H or the 2251j. I usually match 1, 18" to a 10" or 12" to give you an idea of how many components I might be looking at .

For my ears, this much "paper down below" might excuse the 3" diaphragm, for a substitution by the 4" driver and its' extra midrange resolution. . Yes, a tweeter of some sort would be required . This would end up being more of an evolution of a higher resolution 4-way ( 4345 ), rather than a build up of a super 2.5 way, ( such as the 4435 ) .

In my opinion , it's all about matching the subjective resolutions of the various components .

regards <. Earl K

[lfh]

What about 2202 for mid bass? Together with the dual 18" bass drivers, a 2441/2311/2308 combo and the 2405, one could build a "super 4355" (possibly with another baffle layout, though). :nutz:

Just my EUR 0.02

[Ralf]

I`ve read the data sheet of the 2123H and compared it with other drivers.
Mmmmhh...that could be a fine choice for this project or not???

Earl has suggested e.g. the 2251j. But I can`t find spec sheets for this new drivers...
Has somebody more informations?

So here is the provisional update:

2 x 2242H ???
active Network for the 2242 A : modified 5235A with BX6 tuning 20-80Hz
active Network for the 2242 B : modified 5235A with BX6 tuning 20-350Hz???

But what is with the 2243??? I've seen the thread about it in the moment....the specs are interesting:

JBL 2243H
The 2243H uses the 2242H basket and has a foam surround.

Fs = 30 Hz
Qms = 5
Vas = 338.1 liters
Cms = 0.155 mm/N
Mms = 0.182 kg
Rms = 6.854 mohms
Xmax = 5 mm
Xmech = 10 mm
P-Dia = 397.4 mm
Sd = 0.124 sq.m
P-Vd = 620.1 cu.cm
Qes = 0.2
Re = 5.2 ohms
Le = 1.4 mH
Z = 6.24 ohms
BL = 30.2 N/A
Pe = 700 watts
Qts = 0.19
no = 4.401 %
1-W SPL = 98.58 dB
2.83-V SPL = 100.5 dB

...we should discuss about it....


1 x 2123H??? active low cut 350Hz - ~1200Hz or maybe a newer one with neodymium ???

1 x 1,5" horn ??? maybe with 2451 ??? neodymium driver passive network with EQ 1200Hz - 10kHz

1 x 2405 passive network starting from 10kHz

urgggh...now I know nothing but we want to have a dual 18" with a 10 or 12" mid bass driver, a mid horn and a super tweeter

I am pleased about further suggestions.
It would be also nice from you, if you have some links to the appropriate data sheets. Some new driver specs are hard to find...

[johnaec]

To keep things current, I think you'll find lower distortion in the 2012H than the 2123H, (I've also heard it rumored that the 2123H curve is not as flat as published), and maybe the 2332 horn with the 2451H driver?


John

[Guido]

I've also heard it rumored that the 2123H curve is not as flat as published
John
The 2123H curve on the spec sheet is JBLs wish :(
The reality differ within +-3dB
No Idea why the heck they didn't measure it for the spec :banghead:

[Ralf]

Just in the moment I presented the telephone. I had a straight longer discussion with Guido over the composition of the drivers for our new project.

But now we have the finally compilation. .... Drum roll ....

I am to be allowed to present proudly our new concept: The ultimate double 18" monitors: :D


By suggestions from your row we will take the following drivers:

right and left satellite speakers:

1 x 2405
1 x Horn PT-H1010HF (if we will get it...alternative: PH316) driven by a 2430 neodymium
1 x 2012
Passive network, cutoff 2012/2430 1.200Hz, 2430/2405 10.000Hz

Subs:
4 x 2242H (separately cabinets) optimized to 30Hz
active network 5235A A, cutoff 2 x 80Hz
active network 5235A B, cutoff 2242/2012 2 x 200-300Hz (we`ll see)

This speakers will give us a mix of best sound, lowest possible power compression and with smallest possible cabinets.
And the best is: the systems are transportable
On next sea party in spring we will test two systems of it (Guido`s and Ralf`s). Can anybody imagine what 8 2242s can do???
:smthsail::banana::banana::banana:

[lfh]

You guys are obviously completely out of your minds!

:D

[Ralf]

Hi Guido,

here are my first results about the cabinets:

1 x 2242H :
260l / 9.18 cf vented
3 ducts 100mm / 4" tuned to 30Hz

1 x 2012H :
1,4l / 0,05 cf closed

What we see is, that the second 2242 should get a cutoff about 80Hz....

[tomp787]

Hello,

Yesterday I ordered two JBL horns that were not previously available (to me anyway): 126-00013-00 which is 100x100 OASR for 1 inch driver and 338786-001 (pt-f1010hf ) which is 100x100 for 1.5 inch drivers. The oasr horn was recently shown in a post here on the forum and the pt horn was discovered by guido some time ago but wasn't available then. I will let you know when (if) they arrive, which is promised in about one week.

Regarding your low-mid/upper-bass driver you could also consider e145 in a sealed box. It has a good reputation here and it would allow you a lower crossover to your 2242s.

Regards,
Tom

[TimG]

I think you are going to run into integration problems between you 2012H and your 2242H. The 18s will work best if you cross them over around 70-100Hz so you will be free to place them for best bass response. The 2012H will be best used above 300Hz, so that leaves with with a gap between the subwoofers and the midranges. Since you are 75% of the way to building Drew Daniels horn system, why not just build the whole thing? (2) 2242Hs 25-75Hz, (2) 2226H 75-300Hz (since 2227H are discontinued), (1) 2012H 300-1200Hz, (1) 2430H 1200-10kHz, and (1) 2405H 10-20kHz. http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/1-intro.html

[Ralf]

Hello,

Yesterday I ordered two JBL horns that were not previously available (to me anyway): 126-00013-00 which is 100x100 OASR for 1 inch driver and 338786-001 (pt-f1010hf ) which is 100x100 for 1.5 inch drivers. The oasr horn was recently shown in a post here on the forum and the pt horn was discovered by guido some time ago but wasn't available then. I will let you know when (if) they arrive, which is promised in about one week.

Regarding your low-mid/upper-bass driver you could also consider e145 in a sealed box. It has a good reputation here and it would allow you a lower crossover to your 2242s.

Regards,
Tom
Hi Tom,

that are maybe good news. It isn`t possible to order such horns in germany because it isn`t in the JBL parts list (neither Europe nor USA) and we got some informations that the only one of PT-H1010HF which is available in the whole company lies in a safe and will be guarded from human corrosive dogs.... :D

What is the difference between the PT-F1010HF and the PT-H1010HF?

I have heard about a price of 79$ for the PT-H1010HF. Is it right?

the e145idea: my first choice was a 2234H (same idea: lower crossoverpoint...), but everyone advised against to me. We make some testboxes and then measurement decides....

Thank you

Ralf

[tomp787]

Hello,

Here are the links to the horns:

1) horn parts list
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Horn%20List/04%20Horn%20Parts%20List%20.pdf

2) PT waveguide document.
http://www.jblpro.com/ae/pdf/PT_WaveGuide.pdf
The "F" version is rectangular and supposed to be lower distortion according to the pdf above ($83). I will try it with 2430. The "H" version is said to have better pattern control.

3) OASR horn
http://www.jblpro.com/srx/srx_product.htm
the sr4702x and sr4722x use the oasr horn ($57). It appears to replace 2342/2344 at a good price. I will try it with 2410 and altec 802

I don't know the exact prices as I have only left a deposit. I expect a discount from the retail price.

Best Regards,
Tom

[Ralf]

I think you are going to run into integration problems between you 2012H and your 2242H. The 18s will work best if you cross them over around 70-100Hz so you will be free to place them for best bass response. The 2012H will be best used above 300Hz, so that leaves with with a gap between the subwoofers and the midranges. Since you are 75% of the way to building Drew Daniels horn system, why not just build the whole thing? (2) 2242Hs 25-75Hz, (2) 2226H 75-300Hz (since 2227H are discontinued), (1) 2012H 300-1200Hz, (1) 2430H 1200-10kHz, and (1) 2405H 10-20kHz. http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/1-intro.html

What a project....

[Ralf]

Hello,

Here are the links to the horns:

1) horn parts list
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Horn%20List/04%20Horn%20Parts%20List%20.pdf

2) PT waveguide document.
http://www.jblpro.com/ae/pdf/PT_WaveGuide.pdf
The "F" version is rectangular and supposed to be lower distortion according to the pdf above ($83). I will try it with 2430. The "H" version is said to have better pattern control.

3) OASR horn
http://www.jblpro.com/srx/srx_product.htm
the sr4702x and sr4722x use the oasr horn ($57). It appears to replace 2342/2344 at a good price. I will try it with 2410 and altec 802

I don't know the exact prices as I have only left a deposit. I expect a discount from the retail price.

Best Regards,
Tom
Hi Tom,

if you really will get the horns let us know....and also the results with pt/2430
Compared with the old horns the new ones are affordably....:p

Thank you
Ralf

[tomp787]

Hello,

The rectangular PT horn (100 x 100) has arrived. It is 304 (w) x 164 (h) mouth x 74 (d) with a 38mm throat. Unfortunately I am quite busy and may not test it until after the first of the year. The retail price is about $87 USD.

The 100 x 100 OASR horn also arrived, It has a 25mm throat with a screw on mount The retail price was $57 USD. I don't have any screw on drivers so I will have to find an adapter.

I think the OASR horn is the more interesting of the two visually. The low price of $57 should make all the 4430 diy people very happy.

Regards,
Tom

[Guido]

Good News Tom!

But I was mainly interested in the 100x100 Horn that is 304x304mm. Can't remember the exact name at present.
Do you know if this is also available?
I don't think the OASR Horn is suitable for use down 1kHz.

[Ralf]

Good News Tom!

But I was mainly interested in the 100x100 Horn that is 304x304mm. Can't remember the exact name at present.
Do you know if this is also available?
I don't think the OASR Horn is suitable for use down 1kHz.
Hi Guido,

look on my previous answers. This is the PT-H1010HF...

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think you are going to run into integration problems between you 2012H and your 2242H. The 18s will work best if you cross them over around 70-100Hz so you will be free to place them for best bass response. The 2012H will be best used above 300Hz, so that leaves with with a gap between the subwoofers and the midranges. Since you are 75% of the way to building Drew Daniels horn system, why not just build the whole thing? (2) 2242Hs 25-75Hz, (2) 2226H 75-300Hz (since 2227H are discontinued), (1) 2012H 300-1200Hz, (1) 2430H 1200-10kHz, and (1) 2405H 10-20kHz. http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/1-intro.html
You are right, unless they want a PA system it would be better to use a single 2245 up to 300hz which (1) is entirely adequate for home use.

Alternatively a JBL sub 1500,then a mid bass 12 or 15. This would control box size

Ian

[subwoof]

Agreed on the 2012H - simply the best sounding high power 10 I have ever used. 15's just do *not* do well at 1000hz due to beaming.

And use the large format drivers - the one inch stuff just has too much distortion no matter what you do.

If you want to remove plaster, and sterilize the cat, you might as well enjoy it for more than one song.

In progress:
(2) 1400Nd
(1) 2012H
(1) 2435Be
(1) 2332
(1) 2405
In solid ash cabinets inspired by the 250Ti

In a matching rack:
Modified urei 525
Modified urei 539A (2)
Modified urei 6505 (6)
( modules from 6500 amplifier w/ lead compensation )
stay tuned for pictures in march / april....

sub

btw - the sub is a 4688 w/ 2242's in da closet with a modified MA10,000...:)

[stevem]

Hello,

The rectangular PT horn (100 x 100) has arrived. It is 304 (w) x 164 (h) mouth x 74 (d) with a 38mm throat. Unfortunately I am quite busy and may not test it until after the first of the year. The retail price is about $87 USD.

The 100 x 100 OASR horn also arrived, It has a 25mm throat with a screw on mount The retail price was $57 USD. I don't have any screw on drivers so I will have to find an adapter.

I think the OASR horn is the more interesting of the two visually. The low price of $57 should make all the 4430 diy people very happy.

Regards,
Tom
Hey Tom, did you get a chance to do any testing with these waveguides? I am particularly interested in trying out the pt-f1010hf with my 2450SL drivers. I think I read in JBL's description of this wavequide that they were testing it with the 2451, which is almost identical to my drivers, except for the bolt pattern. Anyway, please let us know what your impressions are. Thanks!

[Guido]

Yeah!

Don't keep us waiting too long :D