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View Full Version : How to attach the badges on big 43's?



martin2395
01-24-2016, 01:25 PM
Can anyone tell me how are the original "Model 43XX studio monitor" metal badges attached to the front grilles? I know that the there are metal lips with holes in the frame itself but the badge itself doesn't have any adhesive.

BMWCCA
01-24-2016, 01:30 PM
The originals had metal tabs attached to the frame of the grilles behind the fabric and the badges had posts that went through the grille cloth and into the metal tabs and were secured with nuts, I believe. I can't tell because mine are Kenrick clones and my badges as supplied have nothing on their backs. I tried neodymium magnets behind the cloth with ferrous metal plates glued to the badges but I didn't like it.

I'd love to hear other solutions but actually in my living room I'm liking my 4345s without badges.

martin2395
01-24-2016, 01:35 PM
The badges look original, the metal tabs are present too but the badges have a smooth surface on their backs. No signs of broken off bolts or whatsoever.
Previous owner used a piece of double sided tape to attach two flat head pins to the badges and which then went through the holes in the tabs - not the best looking solution.

Sticking a piece of ferrous metal to the badges sounds like an idea but they may be tricky to align properly.

1audiohack
01-24-2016, 02:50 PM
I will have to look back but I thought they used tie pins like tie tacks no?

Barry.

martin2395
01-24-2016, 03:25 PM
Mine indeed had a kind of tie pins attached but that double sided tape just did'n look right.

They looked like this but of course without the chain and with a plain flat head pin

69518

quindecima
01-24-2016, 06:18 PM
I think I have figured out a way to do this with a screw back attachment but I need a little time to figure it out. I need to attach my 4345 foilcaps so this is a priority.

speakerdave
01-24-2016, 06:40 PM
The original grille frames had drilled metal tabs on specially placed struts to nowhere. Pins were glued to the back of the badges. The pins went through the holes on the metal tabs and were held in place by spring loaded clips such as are found on tie tacks and award pins. In my view no method which hangs the badges on the cloth will be satisfactory since in the long run the fabric will pull and/or sag, maybe just a little, but that would be enough to be visually noticeable, even if they hang straight to begin with, which I doubt. Using magnets that way will just add weight. If it were me doing it, I would use struts with magnets glued to them and light pieces of steel glued to the back of the badge. Then they could be left off most of the time, and only brought out for Show and Tell. It's possible the gripping of the magnets will make an impression on the grille cloth fibers, but it might brush out.

quindecima
01-24-2016, 06:45 PM
My idea is to use narrow (3/8) light gauge metal strips off of the grill with holes drilled in them to accept small drill stock that is jb welded into the back of the foilcals. I am going to look into this method to see if I can use it. There is no way you can attach the foilcals to the grill cloth and have it come out acceptable.

BMWCCA
01-24-2016, 07:42 PM
Speed nuts

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21OD3mkVAcL.jpg

quindecima
01-25-2016, 09:29 AM
I was thinking of screw back fasteners but those would work just as well.

1audiohack
01-25-2016, 11:30 AM
Speed nuts

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21OD3mkVAcL.jpg


As long as you never want to get them back off.

Barry.

Wagner
01-25-2016, 12:52 PM
I have a box of Made in the U.S.A. exact fit for the pin size as used on the L96, L112 etc ubiquitous cast square badges - EXACTLY what JBL used (at least on every pair from that era that have owned) Small round type easily removed with a pick and a steady hand

That spring type as shown above this post is what they used back in the day of the brass "Signature" type badges, late '50s thru the early '60s (and I don't recommend trying reusing them, or any of them for that matter, they're too tight and the spring steel makes it hard to cut them off) Fiddling around trying to get them to release after decades isn't worth the risks or the hassles, just cut them off and use new ones if you insist on metal

I've done it both ways; every time you slide that thing over the pin you cut a new groove - LONG TERM USE ONLY

The gentlest method if you want to use the pins is to use small rubber discs, either homemade or store bought

I prefer homemade as I can cut to the size and shape needed to do the best job

Small O-rings will work too but may not provide the back support you may need (a heavy badge might sag)

Goldjazz
01-25-2016, 11:01 PM
Looks like a rivet with a flat head on the grill side that must have been bonded or spot welded to the badge. Mine had come off and a previous owner had tried to rebond them then hide the ugliness if the glue with gaffe tape. This repair detatched again at some point and I havent repaired it as I dont use the grills.

martin2395
01-26-2016, 04:49 AM
I don't use the grilles too but the speakers are listed for sale and It would've been nice to make them look as good as possible :)

BMWCCA
01-26-2016, 04:50 AM
Thanks for the pictures.
How many tabs/posts per badge?

If you google "Jewelry findings tie-tack post" you'll find lots of stuff like this which should be easy to attach with some JB Weld or other:

http://www.esslinger.com/tie-tacks-clutches-and-cuff-links-1/

(Probably find similar at local Michaels)

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-iic0hc/products/39679/images/50366/64205yellow__37904.1410303273.500.500.jpg?c=2

martin2395
01-26-2016, 07:53 AM
I suppose you could use some epoxy glue to attach them?

BMWCCA
01-26-2016, 12:31 PM
Sorry, here in America JB Weld is a do-it-all two-part epoxy structural repair solution for anything from engine blocks to JBLs. I've even seen people make whole parts out of it. Works on anything that's not flexible.

Wagner
01-26-2016, 01:24 PM
Sorry, here in America JB Weld is a do-it-all two-part epoxy structural repair solution for anything from engine blocks to JBLs. I've even seen people make whole parts out of it. Works on anything that's not flexible.
Not true, neither the "anything" part nor the "not flexible" part

As far as two parts go it is almost a quaint relic today when compared to the advances made in epoxies and adhesives in general (although it does continue to sell extremely well, thanks in large part to name recognition and the lore surrounding it, born long ago when it was indeed a relatively superior product)

Compared to what is available today at a good shop it's as primitive as a stick and a rock

BMWCCA
01-26-2016, 02:38 PM
Not true, neither the "anything" part nor the "not flexible" part

As far as two parts go it is almost a quaint relic today when compared to the advances made in epoxies and adhesives in general (although it does continue to sell extremely well, thanks in large part to name recognition and the lore surrounding it, born long ago when it was indeed a relatively superior product)

Compared to what is available today at a good shop it's as primitive as a stick and a rock

Thank you for your usual contribution. Do have anything constructive to add?

When did you last use JB Weld?

martin2395
01-26-2016, 05:33 PM
Sorry, here in America JB Weld is a do-it-all two-part epoxy structural repair solution for anything from engine blocks to JBLs. I've even seen people make whole parts out of it. Works on anything that's not flexible.

Oh well, I just learnt something new :)
At first I thought "Huh, this guy is going to weld a small pin to a piece of aluminium, what's wrong with him??" :D:D

You guys have so much stuff (tools/materials) for DIY we can only dream of.

BMWCCA
01-26-2016, 06:35 PM
Oh well, I just learnt something new :)
At first I thought "Huh, this guy is going to weld a small pin to a piece of aluminium, what's wrong with him??" :D:D

You guys have so much stuff (tools/materials) for DIY we can only dream of.I'm not endorsing this as a proper repair technique, but if it can successfully keep a cracked cylinder head operating, it can probably hold a tie-tack to a grille badge!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/a2/34/0c/a2340c8107438abead6747c256e71b33.jpg


https://youtu.be/JksxJX6M6qA

Wagner
01-26-2016, 09:57 PM
Thank you for your usual contribution. Do have anything constructive to add?

When did you last use JB Weld?
The last time I used JBL was to repair a piece of costume jewelry for my Wife a few years back which is about all it's good for (re-setting a stone and re-attaching a band) I needed the grey color

Before that, to repair a piece of cracked pot metal on an old Columbia Grafonola's arm base (again, I needed that grey color)

I was, and still am, a master certified automobile mechanic, ASE Master, L1 Advanced Emissions, ASE Service Consultant, hold an unlimited Kalifornia SMOG test and repair license and I still hold 3 current automobile manufacturers' master certifications (you may also enjoy the fact that I was a certified BMW tech back in the '80s)

For 40+ years I have worked on machinery (and JB Weld has been (unfortunately) in my life for all of that time as the dozens of hack and shade tree "mechanics" I have known/encountered through the years all just loved f'ing things up with it after they had initially f'ed things up with their air hatchets
I am intimately familiar with JB Weld in all of it's forms as well as it's many shortcomings

The stuff sucks

The fact that the well worn cracked block anecdotal testimonial which has appeared on it's packaging for decades has endured and proven so endearing to so many for so long, doesn't change the fact that it is bull shit, if not an anomaly at best. Maybe it did patch some piece of shit together for some farmer decades ago, so what?

It is a grand testimony to the power of good marketing (tell a GREAT story that holds forth HOPE) and the stupidity of the gullible (the story just sounds so GREAT, same as shit that'll stop a worn out rear main from leaking or a block with cracked rings from burning it) People looking to avoid spending money on legitimate repairs just eat that sort of shit (product and promise) up, anything to avoid paying or effecting what is actually indicated to be done. Take a stroll through the aisles of any good parts store; the shelves are filled with the crap.

To suggest JB Weld as a possible (good) solution for the task being discussed here in this thread is akin to using duct tape to repair a burst radiator hose, ie: a hack repair/approach

It's the same as Marine-Tex, a temporary, emergency solution at best (for cracked engine parts) And if you insist on using these sorts of cures (or must, as in no other choice), for what it's worth, Marine-Tex is a superior hack

JB Weld is a coarse, extremely viscous, crude epoxy from a time gone by. Sure, it'll stick things together (some things) fairly well, but that's about it

There are far superior epoxies with much greater efficacy and "application appropriateness" on the market today than JB Weld

I'll ask you: when was the last time you effectively repaired an engine block with JB Weld? A crack or flaw subject to full operating temperature and pressures ? On anything you'd drive yourself beyond the end of your driveway?

Don't peddle and spread irresponsible bull shit fella (especially about things you know zip about except maybe what someone's told you or you heard or read somewhere)

BMWCCA
01-27-2016, 04:29 AM
Don't peddle and spread irresponsible bull shit fella (especially about things you know zip about except maybe what someone's told you or you heard or read somewhere)
Once again you've managed to be offensive without providing any constructive solution.

We're talking about attaching a tie-pin to a piece of near-weightless sheetmetal. I think it will work just fine, and it's easy to find in inexpensive small quantities. The rest of the JB Weld story was for the benefit of our non-USA members confused by the reference.

If you want to make a suggestion for a specific product that you think may be better suited to the task, then please, do so. Maybe you can find a way to do so without your superior attitude or purposely aggravating everyone else here?

Frankly, I don't know how the moderators let you continue with your divisive commentary, which really ruins the friendly tone of this forum for many of us.

FWIW, when I was service manager of a BMW, Porsche, Audi store maybe 45-years ago, I required all my techs to take the ASE certification tests. To lessen their disdain for wasting their time, I told them I'd go with them and take them, too. I've never worked as a tech, only learning and working on my own cars and bikes since 1971. Still I passed the test and have a certificate from them (somewhere) to prove it. Point being when multiple-choice questions such as "what is this blue wire in a Ford ignition system" determine whether your mechanic can hang out a shingle from a "non-profit" accrediting group, I am unimpressed by such credentials. I remember missing one question because it showed a scored cylinder bore and I couldn't believe anyone would actually run a car without an air-cleaner long enough to do such damage, or that such a vaunted testing organization would bother which such a question in "certifying" technicians.

Wagner
01-27-2016, 10:03 AM
We're talking about attaching a tie-pin to a piece of near-weightless sheetmetal. I think it will work just fine, and it's easy to find in inexpensive small quantities.
If you want to make a suggestion for a specific product that you think may be better suited to the task, then please, do so.
You're the one that called me out on it, my "experience" that is

As for suggestions? I did, take a look at page one (I misunderstood the full scope of the task(s) at hand initially I believe) All the speed nut related type posts led me to believe the challenge simply was attaching the whole assembly to the frame tabs/cloth, and which I believe still is. That is the problem I was initially speaking to and no JB Weld required as it is still not

In post #1, the OP said nothing of pins, the smooth back of his fascia strip only came up further down, leading me now to understand he has TWO issues to solve, yes?:

Can anyone tell me how are the original "Model 43XX studio monitor" metal badges attached to the front grilles? I know that the there are metal lips with holes in the frame itself but the badge itself doesn't have any adhesive.

I could not see the full extent of the challenges posed from the photos provided by others and I do not own this particular model up for discussion, but I am familiar with repairing things

If what the poster wants/needs to accomplish is to attach the decorative fascia to a mounting back WITH PINS, I would advise going a route similar to the way that the old long style AR badges were assembled, the decorative brass front on a steel back, and then I have a suggestion for that too (which is far superior to JB Weld in all ways and is reversible if need be)

Contact cement, which can be brushed on in a very thin film, provides an instant bond and doesn't require mixing or clamping

If you don't want to go that route, then some wood worker's grade double sided tape would be a possible choice (with NO chance of fouling the work piece) but the adhesive may leach out and migrate over time compromising the bond, possibly spoilng his grille cloth as well as being to thick initially to produce an attractive result

And last but not least, a thin film, brushed on or applied with a finger, of any good PVA like Elmer's Glue-All with work just fine on any low shear/no shear factor application. If a PVA is used then definitely allow a full 24 hours cure before attaching the assembly to the frame

So, if I am now understanding things thoroughly, again his answer resides in mimicking how AR did it; use one of the suggested adhesives (preferable the contact cement) and attached the required number of these to the back of the decorative fascia, problems solved:
http://www.simplexnails.com/Catalog_SquareCap.jpg
They're called square caps and are used for many roofing and flashing jobs. On well made ones, the shank and the head are welded together so the head can be ground down even thinner if he wants/needs for a nice flush fit. The slight protrusion of the head will pose no problem with attaching if contact cement is used. The large square head also provides greater surface area for bonding and will prove more effective than the smallish head of a craft store pin, stud or rivet

They do make them with no head protrusion but are more difficult to find

They also come in several sizes and the head can easily be trimmed down to size if need be. Any of the tacks available at craft stores are too flimsy, I know, I tried to acquire some suitable ones there in order to assemble a shadow box type display of my Father's WWII dog tags and various regalia (same sort of off the shelf engineering challenge as this one) I would avoid them for this job as the square caps shanks offer the benefit of long term durability and strength and are able to withstand multiple removal/re-installs without breaking if the need be

I know they have rooves and flashing in "Europe" so the OP should have no problems finding these at any store that sells roofing or construction materials, as well as a small bottle of contact cement

The shanks can then be secured after they pass through the grille frames' mounting tabs with any of the options suggested on page one of this tread, including the speed nuts. I'll even mail him enough of my JBL type stash (the small round ones I described on page one) if he's interested in trying those. It would probably be wiser to pick them up where he bought the nails though thus ensuring a proper fit if that's the choice that is made Still, he's welcome to try some of what I have, just provide me an address

I would (strongly suggest) however, using a large thick neoprene or rubber washer or similar, another basic hardware store item (or however many thick small ones if you can find them), cut up into pieces to fit (cut carefully and make them look nice, professional) just pierce the pieces with a needle and let friction hold the assembly to the grille tabs. This method allows for a secure, snug fit but is easy to remove if ever the need be
You can even use the small hard rubber bumpers they sell for putting on the bottom of heavy objects that are going to come into contact with surfaces like wood that you don't want scarred; just pierce them with a large pin or needle and push them onto the shank

SEAWOLF97
01-27-2016, 10:27 AM
I suppose you could use some epoxy glue to attach them?

The 8 Egyptians used it, now they're in court.

Had to bring in Germans to do it right :)

http://www.history.com/news/beard-on-king-tuts-mask-snapped-off-glued-back-on
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/24/africa/king-tut-broken-mask-charges/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/fixing-tutankhamuns-beard-unfortunately-they-used-epoxy

Wagner
01-27-2016, 10:50 AM
Frankly, I don't know how the moderators let you continue with your divisive commentary, which really ruins the friendly tone of this forum for many of us.
And "frankly" I do not understand why you insist on tacitly calling the moderators' attentions to any post in which I disagree with you or call you out on your :bs:, bragging, bravado and one-upmanship, hiding behind the pretense of speaking for "many of us"
"Divisive commentary"? "Offensive"? http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/wtf.gif You have got to be kidding me! :nutz: Sounds like some liberal politician, pretty presumptuous of you if you ask me, kind of like "a MAJORITY of Americans" want or believe "x,y or z"! Too funny! :rotfl:

You resort to, and display this behavior frequently; you may THINK your frequent digs on and about others are clever or subtle but they're not, your air of arrogance shines through, whether it's about your superior equipment (both past and present), your name dropping, how much money you have, how brilliant you are......even the cars that you drive

Then when someone (like me) calls you on it, you feel uncomfortable about it and cry and complain

If you do not care for my posts or my personality, then don't read my posts. Use the ignore feature and don't be a little tattletale

Very unbecoming of an allegedly grown man, just make your own arguments and defend your own positions on things, that's what forums are supposedly all about

Nothing wrong with a heated, passionate debate or discussion as long as it refrains from becoming profane

Wagner
01-27-2016, 11:45 AM
The 8 Egyptians used it, now they're in court.

Had to bring in Germans to do it right :)

http://www.history.com/news/beard-on-king-tuts-mask-snapped-off-glued-back-on
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/24/africa/king-tut-broken-mask-charges/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/fixing-tutankhamuns-beard-unfortunately-they-used-epoxy

I saw that story on television, hilarious if it wasn't so f'ing STOOOOOOOOOPID and sad

Yeah, "over the counter" "epoxy" in general is one of the most misused, misapplied, misunderstood adhesives ever made
Became an established hit for domestic use, as in DIY, in the '60s when it became available on a widespread basis to the general public (big time stuff, I was into building flying models at the time)

BIG BIG favorite with a lot of the Fisher guys (EVERY TIME someone has a "it's broken!" problem, right out of the gate it's "well, I used epoxy"
Makes me wince when I hear some of the things they use it/recommend it for

Epoxy, especially the structural and marine types, are great for CERTAIN things, but sucks out loud for others

And to make matters worse, the majority of it sold in places like ACE (on a blister pack) is over priced and a very poor grade with less than predictable results

Clearly, not all created equal

I sure spayed about a million gallons of it when I did my brief boat building stint; that's the shit that probably assisted with helping to get the game started treating me to the joys of cancer (the catalyst we used)! World wasn't so smart back then about protective clothing and the like! :confused:

Rubber gloves for mechanics and machinists came a little late for me too! :o:

Ah well, the good old days! :spin:

BMWCCA
01-27-2016, 06:09 PM
You resort to, and display this behavior frequently; you may THINK your frequent digs on and about others are clever or subtle but they're not, your air of arrogance shines through, whether it's about your superior equipment (both past and present), your name dropping, how much money you have, how brilliant you are......even the cars that you drive

I have no idea where you get such an opinion. Where you looking in a mirror when you wrote that??
Those here who know me understand everything you claim is bunk. This is neither the time or place to debate personalities. I'm comfortable in my shoes. You apparently are not.

But to the point of the thread, you've misunderstood the question and the application. Check out the photos of the frame with the tabs attached and then maybe your learned response could actually be almost on-target as a solution.

hjames
01-28-2016, 09:49 AM
Its probably not the "right" glue, but I've had good luck with RTV silicon adhesive for attaching dissimilar pieces together.
Commonly available at Home Despot or whatever for $3-4 bucks a tube for the bathroom caulk version of it -
just put a dab on the back of the JBL logo, face down, and stick the head of one of those tie tack into it,
and let it stand that way overnight to cure. Doesn't need a lot of strength to work, and you can peel it apart
pretty easily without damaging the logo/badge at some point if you want to do something else ...

Wagner
01-28-2016, 10:17 AM
Its probably not the "right" glue, but I've had good luck with RTV silicon adhesive for attaching dissimilar pieces together.
Commonly available at Home Despot or whatever for $3-4 bucks a tube for the bathroom caulk version of it -
just put a dab on the back of the JBL logo, face down, and stick the head of one of those tie tack into it,
and let it stand that way overnight to cure. Doesn't need a lot of strength to work, and you can peel it apart
pretty easily without damaging the logo/badge at some point if you want to do something else ...
You are absolutely correct
RTV is an excellent suggestion/solution and they make readily available mixes of it that are indeed intended for not just caulking but "gluing" as well

In fact, my "square caps" used with RTV would probably be better from a financial perspective. I only buy contact cement by the pint can at minimum (and it's expensive) as the little brown bottles "for around the house repairs" at "ACE" always seem to be covered with dust and well beyond their expiration date (and anyone that's ever used it knows that contact cement that's old doesn't work, or brush out, worth a shit) Gets stringy and impossible to apply properly
A pint can goes a long way with DIY projects but unless you're going to use it up within a year or so it'd be money wasted for so small a job. I can easily go through a can every 6 months though as it's just so damn useful for so many things

I just like working with it as it allows for fast assembly and the bond becomes stronger over time