Charge coupled passive crossover networks

[tjm001]

I continue to see claims inferring that charge coupling capacitors of passive crossover networks significantly improves the sound quality. To be specific, I recently constructed a pair of the Nelson Pass modified L300 crossovers (http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_l300.pdf) for my L300 clone system. The system has now been up and running for a few weeks of testing and I have to say sounds pretty darn good to me. However since, like most of us, I’m always looking for something a little bit better. Therefore, I was toying with the idea of putting together a pair that was charge coupled to see if there would be any perceptible improvement in the sound. To be candid I am quite skeptical that there would be any perceptual or measurable differences in sound to anyone other than bats or young dogs (to paraphrase my LH friend Wagner). I think I have a basic understanding of the charge coupling concept relative to the bad effects due to dielectric absorption and mechanical resonance/microphony of capacitors, but can anyone really hear this stuff?

I’m anxious to get the opinions of those that have actually done this. Thanks.

Tom

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Tom

I posted a link in the recent thread you will find interesting.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?8111-Charge-Coupling-on-the-Cheap

[4313B]

I think I have a basic understanding of the charge coupling concept relative to the bad effects due to dielectric absorption and mechanical resonance/microphony of capacitors, but can anyone really hear this stuff?No. It's total bullshit. I've built dozens of these nonsensical networks for various JBL loudspeaker systems and the only differences have been increased cost, complexity and physical size.

JBL came up with this little ploy to help sell their "top of the line" <snicker>, "state of the art" <who's art is the real question> loudspeaker systems. :skeptical:

Seriously, who doubles capacitance and then hooks it all up to a battery? :screwy: :applaud: :rotfl: Capacitors suck so let's put twice as many of them in and make them twice as big, two wrongs make a right right?

A link to the system that started all this idiocy: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500.htm

JBL has a very long history of propaganda... take the L300 for example. Have you ever read all the horseshit JBL printed about that hiss and boom box? Nelson Pass lost the last shred of respect I had for him when he wasted his time trying to make that system sound good using a different filter design. :rolleyes: Talk about throwing good money after bad!

How about we all stop this madness and drop this inane subject once and for all eh? :dead_horse:

[gcarlberg]

:banghead:

[tjm001]

No. It's total bullshit. I've built dozens of these nonsensical networks for various JBL loudspeaker systems and the only differences have been increased cost, complexity and physical size.

JBL came up with this little ploy to help sell their "top of the line" <snicker>, "state of the art" <who's art is the real question> loudspeaker systems. :skeptical:

Seriously, who doubles capacitance and then hooks it all up to a battery? :screwy: :applaud: :rotfl: Capacitors suck so let's put twice as many of them in and make them twice as big, two wrongs make a right right?

A link to the system that started all this idiocy: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500.htm

JBL has a very long history of propaganda... take the L300 for example. Have you ever read all the horseshit JBL printed about that hiss and boom box? Nelson Pass lost the last shred of respect I had for him when he wasted his time trying to make that system sound good using a different filter design. :rolleyes: Talk about throwing good money after bad!

How about we all stop this madness and drop this inane subject once and for all eh? :dead_horse:


Thanks. Kinda thought so. Amen.

Tom

[tjm001]

:crying: Sorry! I didn't know the history of this topic.

Tom

[grumpy]

http://youtu.be/-fNvi6xG-5Y

[Fitero]

OK, I'm just an enthusiast who knows next to nothing, but I'll put forth my 2C for what it's worth.

A couple of months ago, I set up a pair of K2's for a friend and listened to them over a number of days for an hour or so each day.

One day, I was Moving papers around and stumbled across a couple of 9V batteries with the rest of the JBL stuff. I asked my buddy, and neither of us knew what they were for, and had a good laugh at how addled we were to have assembled his speakers without the necessary batteries. Obviously, neither of us thought that the batteries were for the K2's.

I had been doing some reading regarding crossover options for the L300's of another friend and had run across the term "Charge Coupled" and that came to mind after our laughing session. I mentioned this to my friend, who knew nothing. I wondered if his K2's might be charge coupled, and looked up the manual. OK.... Duh!

So, I installed the batteries, and we sat down to listen. After a few seconds, we turned to one another with surprise and both blurted out that the sound was clearer and more enjoyable. This last from two middle aged dopes that both suffer from tinnitus and had no preconceived ideas regarding Charge Coupled crossovers.

I'm a believer.

[tjm001]

http://youtu.be/-fNvi6xG-5Y
I got a CHARGE out of that!

[gasfan]

Oh those Canadians! They sure do leave you guessing, eh? ;)

[tjm001]

Oh those Canadians! They sure do leave you guessing, eh? ;)
Yeah, I worked up there in Toronto years ago. Yeah got to watch em close, eh? Good people though. Very much like my native born Cheesehead brothers and sisters from Wisconsin.

[gasfan]

Gotta love those Packers. What is it with Brett Favre anyway? At first I thought he misspelled his own name on this football I've got. Orange carsh anyone?

[Fitero]

Any of you work here? I worked at the Downsview plant in 85.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think if Greg was able to post a few words it would provide some equilibrium between the throng of JBL haters coming out of the closet and the would be new believers.

I dont think closing the book on any of the legacy topics is the answer.

We are all here to have fun even into our twighlight years.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I recall Earl discussing varying the dc bias voltage once. Does 18 volts make a difference over 9 volts?

If its any consequence Giskard hated the 2311 and 2307/2308 and cursed they sounded terrible while he waxed lyrical of 4430 black bum horn.

That was before we started to have a hard look at eqivalents of the old vintage networks, dusted diaphragms and charge coupling.

The 43xx series has since had overwhelming popularity among forum members.

[4313B]

I think if Greg was able to post a few words it would provide some equilibrium between the throng of JBL haters coming out of the closet and the would be new believers.He already did:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23070-The-continuing-saga-of-the-charge-coupled-network&p=230317&viewfull=1#post230317

And then it was copied to other forums...

And here it is again: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?37060-Charge-Coupling-vs-non-CC-with-boutique-caps&p=376526&viewfull=1#post376526


We are all here to have fun even into our twighlight years.It is fun to keep going over this? Last week someone wanted to argue about it.


It is really simple, try it or don't, like it or don't.

I just ordered the parts to charge-couple my three M2 clones. I guess that makes me one of those people that tried it and likes it.

[johnlcnm]

I recall Earl discussing varying the dc bias voltage once. Does 18 volts make a difference over 9 volts?

If its any consequence Giskard hated the 2311 and 2307/2308 and cursed they sounded terrible while he waxed lyrical of 4430 black bum horn.

That was before we started to have a hard look at eqivalents of the old vintage networks, dusted diaphragms and charge coupling.

The 43xx series has since had overwhelming popularity among forum members.

Yep, I came across an old neglected 4333B's last year. A little TLC and finally joined them up with a good DSP amp. Crap, I can't believe how good these old dogs sound. The detail is absolutely amazing. Best system I have ever had in my place. Stereo imaging is hypnotic.

[SEAWOLF97]

Yeah, I worked up there in Toronto years ago. Yeah got to watch em close, eh? Good people though. Very much like my native born Cheesehead brothers and sisters from Wisconsin.

I was an analyst at Consolidated Sawmill Machinery International, a subsidiary of Kocums Cancar of Vancouver B.C. (itself owned by Hawker Siddley). Being one of the few 'Merkcans there among all the Canucks and Brits, sometimes their humor went past me, but they were a fun group. Everybody was friendly (we were paid well , that may have helped) and accepting. Miss those days, good memories.

[tjm001]

You all have definitely convinced me to go ahead and build the charge coupled version of the Nelson Pass Modified L300 crossover. (http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_l300.pdf) My only question at this point is if anyone has previously done this, I'd like to hear from them. The non CC version I have in there now takes up quite a bit of space and is not exactly a work of art aesthetically speaking. It's just a whole bunch of single terminal strips pop riveted to a 12 X 16 piece of 1/4 plywood. It's not pretty. So any advice as to circuit boards, layout, etc. would be appreciated. Thanks.

Tom

[tjm001]

You all have definitely convinced me to go ahead and build the charge coupled version of the Nelson Pass Modified L300 crossover. (http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_l300.pdf) My only question at this point is if anyone has previously done this, I'd like to hear from them.
Tom

Since no one has responded I can only assume it has never been done. I will let you know how it sounds. It will take a few weeks. Thanks.

Tom

[tjm001]

Maybe this should be transferred to the DIY forum?

[badman]

No. It's total bullshit. I've built dozens of these nonsensical networks for various JBL loudspeaker systems and the only differences have been increased cost, complexity and physical size.

JBL came up with this little ploy to help sell their "top of the line" <snicker>, "state of the art" <who's art is the real question> loudspeaker systems. :skeptical:

Seriously, who doubles capacitance and then hooks it all up to a battery? :screwy: :applaud: :rotfl: Capacitors suck so let's put twice as many of them in and make them twice as big, two wrongs make a right right?

A link to the system that started all this idiocy: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500.htm

JBL has a very long history of propaganda... take the L300 for example. Have you ever read all the horseshit JBL printed about that hiss and boom box? Nelson Pass lost the last shred of respect I had for him when he wasted his time trying to make that system sound good using a different filter design. :rolleyes: Talk about throwing good money after bad!

How about we all stop this madness and drop this inane subject once and for all eh? :dead_horse:

Nicely done :applaud:

[Ian Mackenzie]

He already did:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23070-The-continuing-saga-of-the-charge-coupled-network&p=230317&viewfull=1#post230317

And then it was copied to other forums...

And here it is again: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?37060-Charge-Coupling-vs-non-CC-with-boutique-caps&p=376526&viewfull=1#post376526

It is fun to keep going over this? Last week someone wanted to argue about it.


It is really simple, try it or don't, like it or don't.

I just ordered the parts to charge-couple my three M2 clones. I guess that makes me one of those people that tried it and likes it.

Make this thread a sticky so it's top of mind for anyone new looking to investigate charge coupling.

The issue is not the validity but finding the origin or source of the idea.

They can then decide for themselves if the want to do it.

[4313B]

It was done a long time ago:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3555-Bypassed-and-Biased-Capacitors

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3555-Bypassed-and-Biased-Capacitors&p=32732&viewfull=1#post32732

[rusty jefferson]

It is really simple, try it or don't, like it or don't.

I just ordered the parts to charge-couple my three M2 clones. I guess that makes me one of those people that tried it and likes it.

As it happens, one of the members of my local DIY audio club was building speakers and asked opinions about capacitor preferences for the passive networks. Several brands of capacitors were purchased and in double blind tests, the least expensive caps were preferred by the majority of listeners including the builder.

This week after following the renewed topic here I suggested to the builder trying the biased vs non biased capacitors in another round of double blind tests. He's agreed, and we've ordered the needed parts. Naturally, the engineer types in our club are sure there'll be no difference. Should be able to pull this together in a few weeks and will report.

[rusty jefferson]

By "engineer types" I mean the guys in the club who tend to trust measurements more than their hearing. No disrespect to the engineers among us. :)

[4313B]

As it happens, one of the members of my local DIY audio club was building speakers and asked opinions about capacitor preferences for the passive networks. Several brands of capacitors were purchased and in double blind tests, the least expensive caps were preferred by the majority of listeners including the builder.

This week after following the renewed topic here I suggested to the builder trying the biased vs non biased capacitors in another round of double blind tests. He's agreed, and we've ordered the needed parts. Naturally, the engineer types in our club are sure there'll be no difference. Should be able to pull this together in a few weeks and will report.To what end? JBL already established that it makes a difference and something tells me they know a wee bit more about WTF is going on than a bunch of Internet asshats who have been giving this the thumbs down for years and years.



JBL charge-couples their top of the line passive networks. Period.

Like I said before, if someone can't hear the difference in their DIY whatevskis then great! They just saved some money. They can buy more MP3's with the cash they saved. :)

[rusty jefferson]

To what end?


To see if I have a similar experience as you. For me, this is an expeiriential hobby. It's an indication I think enough of your opinion to be willing to spend money on it. For years people have been telling me the wires in my system don't/can't make a difference. I've exposed people to them and now some of them are experimenting with wire in their systems.

[tjm001]

It was done a long time ago:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3555-Bypassed-and-Biased-Capacitors

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3555-Bypassed-and-Biased-Capacitors&p=32732&viewfull=1#post32732

I'm the original poster of this thread. All I was looking for was factual information. I had no axe to grind. It was an honest and sincere question. But instead of going through all of this, why did you not give me the above information at the time of my original post????????????? No! You had to pontificate about your great knowledge and experience and what an idiot that I and others are. ("Internet asshats" to be exact) But I agreed with your technical analysis! WTF?

Tom

[Ed Zeppeli]

As it happens, one of the members of my local DIY audio club was building speakers and asked opinions about capacitor preferences for the passive networks. Several brands of capacitors were purchased and in double blind tests, the least expensive caps were preferred by the majority of listeners including the builder.

This week after following the renewed topic here I suggested to the builder trying the biased vs non biased capacitors in another round of double blind tests. He's agreed, and we've ordered the needed parts. Naturally, the engineer types in our club are sure there'll be no difference. Should be able to pull this together in a few weeks and will report.

Nice. Looking forward to hearing the results!


I'm the original poster of this thread. All I was looking for was factual information. I had no axe to grind. It was an honest and sincere question. But instead of going through all of this, why did you not give me the above information at the time of my original post????????????? No! You had to pontificate about your great knowledge and experience and what an idiot that I and others are. I agree with you! WTF?

Tom

Don't sweat it Tom. I've found this thread interesting if it's any consolation. I think it's just been a touchy subject around here lately.

[4313B]

I'm the original poster of this thread. All I was looking for was factual information. I had no axe to grind. It was an honest and sincere question. But instead of going through all of this, why did you not give me the above information at the time of my original post????????????? No! You had to pontificate about your great knowledge and experience and what an idiot that I and others are. ("Internet asshats" to be exact) But I agreed with your technical analysis! WTF?

TomReally? I had to pontificate? From my perspective this entire thread was a troll thread coming off the other troll thread on this subject from last week. In any case, I am done justifying anything to any of you. This thread is proof positive that all the other threads, including my Techbot section, were a waste of my time. This forum is a complete waste of my time. It offers me virtually nothing but grief.


I think it's just been a touchy subject around here lately.It has been a "problem" since ~ 2004... so yeah... I should have stopped responding after the first thread way back then.

[BMWCCA]

Really? I had to pontificate? From my perspective this entire thread was a troll thread coming off the other troll thread on this subject from last week. In any case, I am done justifying anything to any of you. This thread is proof positive that all the other threads, including my Techbot section, were a waste of my time. This forum is a complete waste of my time. It offers me virtually nothing but grief.

It has been a "problem" since ~ 2004... so yeah... I should have stopped responding after the first thread way back then.

I would suggest that many here enjoy the fruits of your labor and are listening to their CC systems in blissful ignorance to the tempest-in-a-teapot created by this "discussion". Please don't judge the value of your time and efforts by the loose talk of those who haven't taken time to understand. The overwhelming majority here appreciate both your and GT bringing these innovations to our attention.

I find the details and data collected on this site to be an invaluable resource, not only for those here currently but especially for those sure to follow our interest in JBL systems in the future—particularly since they will be going forward without any reasonable expectation of support from the manufacturer, given their current goals and actions.

Let's try and keep this group together for the sake of the JBL heritage, which I always figured was the point of this enterprise in the first place.

All who agree with me, please feel free to post in support of the sharing of legacy system information—and ways to improve them.
No more shooting the messenger!

[gasfan]

+1

[badman]

Really? I had to pontificate? From my perspective this entire thread was a troll thread coming off the other troll thread on this subject from last week. In any case, I am done justifying anything to any of you. This thread is proof positive that all the other threads, including my Techbot section, were a waste of my time. This forum is a complete waste of my time. It offers me virtually nothing but grief.

It has been a "problem" since ~ 2004... so yeah... I should have stopped responding after the first thread way back then.

It'd be a shame to lose you. People are bad about pre-searching- at DIY audio there's a function where the new thread asks you to check a box saying that you've searched, and alongside that shows some likely topic matches. Not sure how effective it is, but at least it's something. Part of the challenge of forums is that threads blow up quickly, meaning sorting through tons of posts for tiny 'lil nuggets of info, and search functions, for whatever reason, aren't very good on any forum I've used.

[Ed Zeppeli]

Part of the challenge of forums is that threads blow up quickly, meaning sorting through tons of posts for tiny 'lil nuggets of info, and search functions, for whatever reason, aren't very good on any forum I've used.

Agreed. Not to mention the off-topic stuff that comes up. I've gleaned lots of info from seemingly unrelated threads about a product that had nothing to do with the OP topic. It makes searching at times difficult but also makes this place interesting.

[BMWCCA]

People are bad about pre-searching- at DIY audio there's a function where the new thread asks you to check a box saying that you've searched, and alongside that shows some likely topic matches. Not sure how effective it is, but at least it's something. Part of the challenge of forums is that threads blow up quickly, meaning sorting through tons of posts for tiny 'lil nuggets of info, and search functions, for whatever reason, aren't very good on any forum I've used.

On nearly any forum I use Google Advance Search which allows my search to be restricted by domain name.
This is how it works in Chrome:
Enter what you want to search for in Google.
When the results page opens, click the little "gear" button in the upper right to open "options" and choose "Advanced search"
Enter "audioheritage.org" in the site or domain box and search again.

Particularly useful when searching for things like JBL or L7 which this site's search function completely ignores!

[Ed Zeppeli]

Interesting. Another way...

Go to the site you wish to search

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/

In front of the address type in your query plus site:

So for L7 it would look like;

L7 site:http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/

[BMWCCA]

Interesting. Another way...

Go to the site you wish to search

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/

In front of the address type in your query plus site:

So for L7 it would look like;

L7 site:http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/

:thmbsup: Correct. Same thing Google Advanced Search does. It looks like this in the search box: L7 site:audioheritage.org

[cooky1257]

I'll put my hands up and admit that my searching is usually pretty poor or unsuccessful so am guilty of posting questions that may have been answered a decade earlier.
Thankfully I've been met with courteous and helpful responses from a great community(including the man himself GT).
I'm sure the lifers here have seen it all before and can get irritated sometimes but it would be a shame if laymen folk got to feeling intimidated into lurking rather than partaking.

[Ed Zeppeli]

I'm sure the lifers here have seen it all before and can get irritated sometimes but it would be a shame if laymen folk got to feeling intimidated into lurking rather than partaking.

I sometimes feel it's my duty to respond to any question I feel fit to answer just to alleviate the old guard of the monotony. :)

[srm51555]

I would suggest that many here enjoy the fruits of your labor and are listening to their CC systems in blissful ignorance to the tempest-in-a-teapot created by this "discussion". Please don't judge the value of your time and efforts by the loose talk of those who haven't taken time to understand. The overwhelming majority here appreciate both your and GT bringing these innovations to our attention.

I find the details and data collected on this site to be an invaluable resource, not only for those here currently but especially for those sure to follow our interest in JBL systems in the future—particularly since they will be going forward without any reasonable expectation of support from the manufacturer, given their current goals and actions.

Let's try and keep this group together for the sake of the JBL heritage, which I always figured was the point of this enterprise in the first place.

All who agree with me, please feel free to post in support of the sharing of legacy system information—and ways to improve them.
No more shooting the messenger!

Agree 100%. The project history and performance evaluations on this site is invaluable, I mean heck the only reason I'm even documenting my M2 build is for someone's future reference. I already know what's inside:).

[johnlcnm]

4313B,

And all the super knowledgeable folks here. History in the making. I am sure a lot of this would be long lost in another decade or so. This is a historical document in the "21st century style."

Your knowledge is paramount to me and anyone else interested in the JBL heritage.

Regards,

John

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think it faircto say thatvin luxury goods industry called Hi End audio (that has has zero growth for 30 years) that is full of snake oil merchants people have every right to be sceptical particularly new members to the forum.

While charge coupled crossover is novel its not unique to JBL and JBL are not by any means lily while with their approach to marketing over the years.

Ie imaginary equivalent tuning
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?7564-Imaginary-Equivalent-Tuning

The JBL engineers know their stuff but with JBL marketing its the tail waging the dog at times.

[ivica]

I continue to see claims inferring that charge coupling capacitors of passive crossover networks significantly improves the sound quality. To be specific, I recently constructed a pair of the Nelson Pass modified L300 crossovers (http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_l300.pdf) for my L300 clone system. The system has now been up and running for a few weeks of testing and I have to say sounds pretty darn good to me. However since, like most of us, I’m always looking for something a little bit better. Therefore, I was toying with the idea of putting together a pair that was charge coupled to see if there would be any perceptible improvement in the sound. To be candid I am quite skeptical that there would be any perceptual or measurable differences in sound to anyone other than bats or young dogs (to paraphrase my LH friend Wagner). I think I have a basic understanding of the charge coupling concept relative to the bad effects due to dielectric absorption and mechanical resonance/microphony of capacitors, but can anyone really hear this stuff?

I’m anxious to get
the opinions of those that have actually done this. Thanks.

Tom

HI TJM,

We have to be aware that most of the electrical components are not ideal, so I belive that using CC network while applying DC polarization of the used capactors wolud be possible good solution, especially for midbass, VHF and UHF drivers.
Regards
Ivica

[tjm001]

Thanks. I have ordered the parts and I'll soon know for sure. After all the previous responses to this post I am quite confident it will to say the least!:o:
Tom

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am sure you will be pleased and if needed there is support here to resolve any questions along the way.

[tjm001]

I am sure you will be pleased and if needed there is support here to resolve any questions along the way.
Thank you!

[mech986]

:lurk: