View Full Version : JBL 4367 first listen
Just got them in today. The large packing containers insinuate the speakers are much bigger than they really are. They are easy to un-box and one person can do it although two is better. The multi-lingual owners manual is about 3/8's of an inch thick although only about 4-6 pages of it are in English. I did not check but finding setup instructions in Swahili toward the back might be possible.
Fresh out of the box with no break in time here is what I noticed after about of 1 hour of listening. I used a PS Audio Direct Stream DAC, ARC REF-5 preamp and Krell DUO 300 amplifier with the speaker baffles setup about 4.5 feet off the long wall in a 24 x 22 foot irregularly shaped room about 12 feet away. My initial impression was that they were boxy as well as muffled sounding and reserved in the midrange, unusual for a horn speaker. Also a low stereo image. Given that the center of the high frequency horn is only about 33 inches off the ground this did not surprise me. I was concerned about them being too low to the ground from the get go so I expected to have to improvise some sort of a riser for them. Getting them off the ground 3.75 inches (on 2x4's for now) made a very noticeable improvement reducing the above mentioned colorations. My guess is that a taller (TBD) riser will be better yet.
They have snappy effortless sounding bass with some extra emphasis between 150-250hz (my guess-not measured) that could go away or be reduced with some break in time. Although I did not have time to try it, a position slightly closer to the back wall, due to higher cancellation frequencies, might ultimately provide a more linear bottom end, say around 3.5 feet out. They do not "disappear" as well as the Array 1000/1400 probably due to the wider baffle. In this way they are more like the S4700 or the Everest. Very dynamic and other than the 150-250hz region they sound very balanced and extended. I am guessing that I will find this speaker pretty free of listener fatigue. Some sort of stand or riser will be mandatory with height to be determined by each individual listener.
One final note. I ordered this pair in the walnut finish which are supposed to come with the dark blue grilles as opposed to the black grilles if one orders the black ash finish. Lucky me I received one grille of each color! So I get to compare side by side before I ultimately chose a replacement blue or black grille. The blue grille has a lot of gray in it. It does not look obviously "dark JBL blue" like I thought it would. Either is handsome. Fit and finish was very good. The walnut grain had more texture and sheen than JBL's walnut cabinets from the 70's.
More comments to come after break in and more experimentation.
Thanks for the report!
What is the height of your ceiling?
audiomagnate
12-09-2015, 03:15 AM
So you listened to them sitting on the floor and then raised them up 3.75 inches? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure these aren't floor standing speakers. I think you need to get the center of the horn close to ear level to give them a fair evaluation.
bubbleboy76
12-09-2015, 04:21 AM
Thanks for the report!
4313B
12-09-2015, 07:50 AM
Yes, the horn goes at ear height when seated in the normal listening position. G.T. mentioned that nearly everyone preferred the "4367 slightly better than the 4365". I guess it would be kind of nutty if it sounded worse. :rotfl: The components are definitely less expensive than the 4365 components. 1501Fe versus 2216Nd-1, 476Mg and 045Ti versus D2430K. Regardless, both systems are very nice, especially if one doesn't want to "hassle" with the additional setup required with the M2.
srm51555
12-09-2015, 08:16 AM
Thanks for the review. I look forward to hearing more and possibly Picts?
I am still looking to find or make the proper stand/riser for them. I realize the horn needs to be at ear level and that the 2x4's are too short, but it was all I had at the moment and I could not wait to hear them.
I never heard the 4365 so I can't comment on the sound quality differences compared to the 4367's.
The ceiling height is a suspended ceiling at 9.5 feet as the room is in my audio store. Dozens of high end speakers have been auditioned in this room over the years, so despite it's problems, at least I am familiar with it's acoustics.
A couple of quick measurements with my Audio Control 3051 real time analyzer this morning showed a smoother response at 3.75 feet off the back wall versus the peaky 160hz range using the 4.5 foot where I started (where most speakers seem to work best). The 3.75 foot position was pretty linear from 50 to 400 hz but with a fairly sharp roll off of 6-8db at 40hz relative to the bass in the 50-100hz region. The overall bass response was elevated relative to the midrange (above 800hz) about 3-4db. I expect the proper height stand to mitigate most if not all of this.
The loss of bass at 40hz is more of a concern. Perhaps I still have not found the sweet spot for these in the room yet. However I have some concern that the 4367 may have been tuned/voiced for the Japanese market which favors a curve that smoothly rolls off the deep bass at some hinge point in the mid bass. If this is the case, EQ will be necessary for me to achieve the tonal balance I expected. Flat to 40hz is important as it is low E on the commonly used standard 4 string electric bass guitar.
4313B
12-09-2015, 04:22 PM
Interesting!
The M2 does have the +4 or +5 dB PEQ bump at ~ 22 to 24 Hz if I remember correctly and G.T. has always maintained that his newer systems can use a few dB of boost on the bottom end for the North American market. So a bit of boost on the bottom for the passive 4367 should work just fine. Some folks are going to EQ the system for a room anyway so it isn't a problem.
Ok. I finally bought a pair of moving carts (with casters) 7 inches tall that work well as temporary risers for the 4367's and also makes trying new speaker positions easy. The center of the midrange horn is now at 38 inches at the same height as my ears.
At least in my room, these speakers do not like to be pulled far into the room like a lot of audiophile speakers do. A lot of pro monitors are mounted near or in walls so maybe their design reflects this. I am now tinkering with between 36 and 40 inches from the baffle off the back wall and measurements from my 1/3 octave analyzer show a much smoother response overall. The risers contribute hugely to a smoother transition (both in listening and measuring) from the bass through the midrange. No surprise here but a welcome outcome.
I must say, the clarity, definition, snap and dynamics are impressive, in the same ballpark as my DD67 Everest's, although the effect is different. They clearly have low bass distortion as well which makes tolerating the below mentioned bass problem easier because the woofer is so incredibly proficient. Like a sports car with lots of horsepower that naturally wants to go fast, these speakers play loud effortlessly. They really boogie.
THE PROBLEM IS that even after lots of placement experimentation and utilizing the riser, the frequency response of this speaker is not flat in the bottom end. The range from 80-160 hz is up 4-6db compared to 50hz and 200-250hz on either side. The output at 40 hz has come up from where it was earlier with the speakers further into the room, but it is still 6 down from 50hz. There is a spread of at least 10db or so between 40hz and 100hz. I've measured and listened to a lot of speakers in this room over the years and believe most of this to be a trait of the speaker. It's very audible and I am frankly bothered by why a PRO JBL speaker so accurate in all other areas would have such an obvious bass hump built in. EQ will be necessary (not a deal breaker for me as EQ is everywhere in audio if you look for it) unless I can find a substantially more linear response curve in a different location, which I doubt at this point.
Going from memory, in the midrange and treble there is a slightly shelved down area from around the 700hz crossover to around 3khz and then it picks back up a few db staying flat until around 8khz then another slight shelving down ultimately ending with a mild peak in the treble around 16khz. 20khz is still on line with the 10-12khz region. This makes them sound slightly mid treble bright and a bit lacking in refinement and smoothness compared to the Everest's, which also have better high frequency detail. I have not played with the level controls on the front of the speaker yet, so it might be possible to tweak here rather easily. Still this is very good measured in room performance. Even at moderately loud levels I find listener fatigue quite low despite the slight mid treble brightness.
More experimentation to come!
4313B
12-09-2015, 09:21 PM
I'll try and post the measured curves tomorrow so you can see what the target system design was.
Mctwins
12-09-2015, 09:24 PM
THE PROBLEM IS that even after lots of placement experimentation and utilizing the riser, the frequency response of this speaker is not flat in the bottom end. The range from 80-160 hz is up 4-6db compared to 50hz and 200-250hz on either side. The output at 40 hz has come up from where it was earlier with the speakers further into the room, but it is still 6 down from 50hz. There is a spread of at least 10db or so between 40hz and 100hz. I've measured and listened to a lot of speakers in this room over the years and believe most of this to be a trait of the speaker. It's very audible and I am frankly bothered by why a PRO JBL speaker so accurate in all other areas would have such an obvious bass hump built in. EQ will be necessary (not a deal breaker for me as EQ is everywhere in audio if you look for it) unless I can find a substantially more linear response curve in a different location, which I doubt at this point.
Hallo!
First I would like to say, Congrats on your new speakers.
I have to correct you here regarding the freq response of the speaker you wrote here. I do not belive that there is a problem with the speakers freq response. All this problem you describe here is due to your room freq response that affects the behaviour of how the speakers sounds in your room. Yet, I have not seen how your room looks like or if you have some acoustical treatment.
I am not using any EQ in my 4365 to correct for room anomalies.
All I want to say is, don't blame the speaker, blame your room acoustics.
Happy listening:)
Mr. Widget
12-09-2015, 11:13 PM
All I want to say is, don't blame the speaker, blame your room acoustics. I am sure you're right that the room is playing a huge part in this, however his point was that he has listened to many, many systems in this room so he is pretty familiar with what the room is contributing.
Widget
Mctwins
12-09-2015, 11:24 PM
I am sure you're right that the room is playing a huge part in this, however his point was that he has listened to many, many systems in this room so he is pretty familiar with what the room is contributing.
Widget
Yes, I understand. if I remove my treatment where I have my 4365 it will shure sound differen't, but, I will not blame the speaker.
I am referring to what "jpw" wrote, "the frequency response of this speaker is not flat in the bottom end."
Ian Mackenzie
12-10-2015, 04:36 AM
I am still looking to find or make the proper stand/riser for them. I realize the horn needs to be at ear level and that the 2x4's are too short, but it was all I had at the moment and I could not wait to hear them.
I never heard the 4365 so I can't comment on the sound quality differences compared to the 4367's.
The ceiling height is a suspended ceiling at 9.5 feet as the room is in my audio store. Dozens of high end speakers have been auditioned in this room over the years, so despite it's problems, at least I am familiar with it's acoustics.
A couple of quick measurements with my Audio Control 3051 real time analyzer this morning showed a smoother response at 3.75 feet off the back wall versus the peaky 160hz range using the 4.5 foot where I started (where most speakers seem to work best). The 3.75 foot position was pretty linear from 50 to 400 hz but with a fairly sharp roll off of 6-8db at 40hz relative to the bass in the 50-100hz region. The overall bass response was elevated relative to the midrange (above 800hz) about 3-4db. I expect the proper height stand to mitigate most if not all of this.
The loss of bass at 40hz is more of a concern. Perhaps I still have not found the sweet spot for these in the room yet. However I have some concern that the 4367 may have been tuned/voiced for the Japanese market which favors a curve that smoothly rolls off the deep bass at some hinge point in the mid bass. If this is the case, EQ will be necessary for me to achieve the tonal balance I expected. Flat to 40hz is important as it is low E on the commonly used standard 4 string electric bass guitar.
l had a somewhat similar issue in my lounge room.
I tried to move out the speakers but it traded one issue for another.
In the end I moved the listening chairs in and the speakers to the point where l was happy with the bass and the imaging.
The large woofer and horn height restrict Vertical movement so while it may not look like an option moving the listening position may bring some surprises. Alternatively you could raise them another 4 inches and tlit the cabinet forward slightly.
Now l have no issue with the speakers and the chairs where they are and its sounds really impressive.
If you need to do eq there are some reasonable priced Klark teknic 30 band graphic equalisers on EBay that might be worth considering.
4313B
12-10-2015, 06:14 AM
I'll try and post the measured curves tomorrow so you can see what the target system design was.Here you go!
LowPhreak
12-10-2015, 11:17 AM
jpw, I recommend using this: http://noaudiophile.com/speakercalc/ It has helped me with several speakers in different rooms. You don't have to follow it verbatim, but it is useful sometimes even if you only use the rear-wall-to-speaker dimension or side-wall-to-speaker and then experiment with placement from there. You can at least ameliorate or level out some of the room nodes until you get more familiar with the sound of new speakers, and how you may want to EQ them.
Much much thanks for all the advice, especially the JBL 4367 technical info, graphs etc. What is odd is that I have listened to literally dozens of high end speakers in this room over the last 15 years, many of which also measure accurately, and they do not exhibit the problems I am having. I have not thoroughly read or digested the technical info just posted but I am being forced to consider that some how the 4367's load the room differently than TAD's, Dunlavy's, Wilson's, Revel's, B&W's etc. I am only a wannabe engineer so I have gotten use to being wrong, which is what I am hoping for here. I love everything about these except the bass problems so I will continue to play with positioning or simply try another room. Thanks again........
LowPhreak
12-10-2015, 06:04 PM
Also, I wouldn't start getting too nervous about their sound (especially the low end) until they've had at least a solid week of playing time. :)
Ed Zeppeli
12-11-2015, 01:17 PM
I keep coming back to this thread hoping there will finally be pictures but alas......
:)
Sorry to disappoint you Ed. I am out of town for awhile. Imagine 4430's with less butt cheek until I can post them.
Hopefully these come out clear. 6876868769687706877168772
Screen shots of Audio Control 1/3 octave analyzer show hump centered at 125hz in my listening room.
I could not improve upon these measurements and maintain a reasonable relationship between the speakers, listening position and walls.
Walnut cabinets are supposed to come shipped with blue grilles only. I received one of each color, black and blue, so I showed how each look on the speaker.
Sorry for the split up photos. I'm trying again.6877368774687756877668777
frank23
12-14-2015, 01:35 PM
Congratulations on the 4367 speakers. Is this real wood veneer, or wood print? As far as the previous comments go, one was talking about the 4365 which is of course another speaker. The other thing is that running in is needed for the bas resonance frequency to stabilise. Looking at the graphs the ports are tuned to 30Hz (the dip in between the two peaks, although the left peak is not shown). This 30Hz seems low enough for a good low end. But I must say that the peak at 125Hz shown by your analyzer is not what one would expect. I can imagine it not sounding as you'd like.
My experience with having JBL drivers reconed is that they need to move to break-in. As the drivers are much bigger than normal speakers, this means getting the volume quite high. Because before you can see a 15" move, there is some serious bass going on. And 5 minutes is not enough :-) Good luck, hope you get them working properly.
Frank,
The wood veneer does not look like the American Walnut veneer JBL used on it's speakers from the 70's and into the 80's. It is wood (possibly wood print?) but the veneer is very straight and homogeneous looking and does not have the character of the vintage JBL's. Although the workmanship looks very good otherwise, I'd have to be honest and say this is a small disappointment.
After perusing the JBL technical graphs kindly posted by 4313, I am left thinking that for whatever reasons, the 4367 loads this particular listening room in an uncomplimentary way which causes the 125hz bass hump. The graphs look close to perfect through the area where the peaks are measured, although they also show the roll off at 40hz that I am experiencing. After 20 hours of playing time further significant improvement from break in is doubtful in my experience. I have other rooms to work with fortunately and do not have an aversion to using EQ if it is as transparent as possible.
I have spent a lot of time on the forum focusing on the bass hump in this one room. I don't want this to take away from how phenomenal these speakers are to listen to. I can't wait to hear them everyday when I go to work, and I have Everest DD67000's to listen to at night! Most likely others would not experience the bass hump in their room anyhow.
joeinid
12-14-2015, 08:47 PM
John,
Thank you so much for the photos. They look awesome to me. Love the looks.
DavidF
12-14-2015, 10:09 PM
Frank,
The wood veneer does not look like the American Walnut veneer JBL used on it's speakers from the 70's and into the 80's. It is wood (possibly wood print?) but the veneer is very straight and homogeneous looking and does not have the character of the vintage JBL's. Although the workmanship looks very good otherwise, I'd have to be honest and say this is a small disappointment...".
It looks to me like quarter-sawn walnut. I can appreciate the appeal of the wood grain used in legacy models but this has a quality all its own. I have used quarter-sawn oak many times and much prefer this to radial cut veneer.
Mr. Widget
12-14-2015, 11:14 PM
The wood veneer does not look like the American Walnut veneer JBL used on it's speakers from the 70's and into the 80's. It is wood (possibly wood print?) but the veneer is very straight and homogeneous looking and does not have the character of the vintage JBL's. Although the workmanship looks very good otherwise, I'd have to be honest and say this is a small disappointment. From your photos they look identical to the wood and finish of the 4365s. It is a "real" wood veneer sort of. It is a sliced and diced manufactured wood veneer. I found it a huge disappointment and a deal breaker for me. If other companies can offer beautiful veneers at much lower price points then Harman needs to step up.
Thank you for taking the time to share your listening impressions and these excellent photos.
Widget
jpw, try rising the speakers so that the woofer duscat sits at a ~72cm height, and see if it solves your bass hump issue.
Ian Mackenzie
12-15-2015, 01:09 AM
At an educated guess my hypothesis is the 4367 wss voiced in a sigficantly smaller listening room than you are using.
The upside us that JBL are attempting to ensure a repeatable outcome in a range of defined listening rooms. This means that physical parameters effecting the lower end responsegave been customised with a banana curve.
Thus is contrary to earlier tuning that were on paper like bass box were the system is assumed to have a maximal response then fall lkke a brick.
Your room therefore may therefore be outside the range if parameters used in the voicing.
The room sounds large compared to what might be termed a typical consumer living room however the contemporary trend is for large open plan listening spaces.
You also mention the room is 24x22 ft and irregular?
I am wondering if there are some room modes in play that are grouped is the problem frequencies?
What to do about it?
I dont think breakin will help.
Try a different room and see what happens.
With the scale of room and the directivity of the system it might sound diffused or lost?
Then determine if a graphic eq could offer an brute force improvement.
You could take this off line and trial lowering the tuning frequency or stuffing the ports will some fibre glass.
Just some ideas.
Widget, I agree that the wood veneer has a slight synthetic or manufactured look like S4700's or 4365's. It still looks good but not as dimensional and real as, well, real veneer.
You are also right that some other speaker vendors offer a more luxurious finish in this price range. On the other hand, I suspect that JBL has significantly more parts cost in their drivers and horn assembly than other speakers here. As you know pro driver quality woofers and compression drivers are not cheap. If for the money I can't have both the luxury finish and the better drivers and resultant sound, I will take the better sound. Still an upgrade to the finish would be nice. I sometimes wonder if the more high end cabinet finishes of the past were a victim of JBL not being made in the US anymore. Alternatively perhaps one could argue that higher manufacturing costs in the US would mandate an even cheaper finish for same selling price if everything else is left the same.
I guess it comes down to cost and what kind of manufacturing capability they have now versus prior.
Ian and pos: I will continue to try different positions/height in the problem room as well as experimenting with placement in some smaller rooms. I suspect your "banana curve" hypothesis might have some validity. My engineering credentials are pretty thin, but I think that some level of low frequency boundary reinforcement was assumed in their design to augment flat response to 40hz and below. You would get more of this in small or medium rooms where one can not get far from a wall when listening. In the 24 x 22 room I tried a wild listening position with the couch about 4 feet from the back wall and the speakers pulled WAY into the room to maintain about a 12-13 foot listening distance from the baffle board. This sounded very promising with almost powered subwoofer like bottom end. I did not get a chance to measure though. Unfortunately it was a totally impractical layout to leave this way but it sure was fun to listen to.
DavidF
12-15-2015, 05:18 PM
Widget made mention of a finish having a manufactured appearance that is off-putting. I am familiar with reconstituted wood veneer that fits that description though its hard (for me) to confirm this is what is on these 4367s. Reconstituted wood is actually layers of thin sheets of an abundant species that are glued and then pressed together. The wood can be died to mimic a particular species. That may well be what JBL used for your cabinets. The cost of the product (based upon my casual shopping for veneers over the past year) is not much less on a retail basis than veneer of the most common species (oak, walnut, beech, etc). It may be that because of its uniformity and lack of defects that it costs less in terms of waste and man-hours in the production process.
We may all agree that it lacks the appeal and distinction of some flat cut veneer hardwoods. Still it is wood, it is far more sustainable and it might get JBL California carbon offsets http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon6.png. Who knows, it may also be a look into the future when we are told we can't buy natural wood lumber anymore.
jpw, the 72 cm figure was not random, try it and you might be surprised ;)
audiomagnate
12-16-2015, 02:45 AM
jpw, the 72 cm figure was not random, try it and you might be surprised ;)
I would try a variety of heights. That veneer reminds me of the stuff they used on the L100t.
Thanks pos. I see the math in 72 cm which = quarter wave of 120hz.
Yes, and this is the second vertical mode of your room with its 9.5 ft ceiling :)
When placed at 1/4 of that dimension (72 cm) the woofer will be in a pressure null and will not energize that vertical mode.
VJunction
12-17-2015, 01:47 PM
jpw, maybe we should try these in my "very flat" room. Just saying, I would buy the beer :)
gbe
Vjunction: I see your are next door. Maybe you can come by the store (Audio Video Logic in Urbandale) to hear the speakers after work and I will buy the beer. I think you will be impressed.
I'm gone until the 29th of December but then back again until mid January. I travel a fair amount back and forth to Colorado.
POS: A suspended ceiling does not function very well as a solid boundary to low frequencies so I doubt it is effecting the bass much, but maybe it does some. Thanks for pointing this out.
I have not found a convenient way to get them to 72 cm's off the ground yet but I have moved them to the dimensions of 4.5 feet (half wave and cancellation of 125hz) out from both back and side walls. This means listening a long ways away with a very wide stereo stance (I happen to like this arrangement) and yields an obviously improved response that I have not had a chance to measure yet. Deep bass is up and 125hz area is clearly down. Bass octave to octave balance is now becoming acceptable even in this room. It is not a terribly practical listening arrangement because of the need to use the same room for other speaker demo's. Going to 72 cm's may be the final tweak needed.
macaroonie
12-17-2015, 05:17 PM
As a matter of interest , given that you run an emporium , do you have other speakers in the same environment ? Do you have shorting leads to kill sympathetic resonances in the other speakers ?
( Maggies excluded )
macaroonie: No we don't short them. ALL THE HUNDREDS OF SPEAKERS that have been available for comparison over the 25 years we have been in business have been demonstrated under the same conditions, with other speakers in the room. So while this certainly causes interactions and effects the outcome of listening and measurements to some degree, in my opinion it can not be used as a reason to explain the strangely uneven bass response we initially experienced with the 4367.
Also in the room referred to, 9 out of 10 or more speakers sound and measure best within a foot of the same place in the room, a place determined by years of experimenting and measuring. We have found over time that the 1 out of 10 that don't work in this vicinity are usually confirmed over time by us and others to in fact have linearity problems in the bass.
However the white papers furnished by 4313 from JBL dispel any doubts about their technical accuracy. Am I or you to believe that my demo room is the better test for accuracy compared to JBL's world class speaker design center? I think not! So what we have is an anomaly, and it is not the first one.
The level of help offered by various forum members to help me get the right bottom end out of the 4367 has been both surprising and useful. However too much may be being made of my initial post regarding the bass hump I reported, and if so it's my own fault. Although I have had to resort to unconventional placement in this one room to get deep smooth bass response, I must say they are sensational when the sweet spot is approached. This speaker is closer in performance and effect to the DD67000 Everest than it is to a 1400 Array. I will post new measurements for this position when I get a chance later this month.
POS: A suspended ceiling does not function very well as a solid boundary to low frequencies so I doubt it is effecting the bass much, but maybe it does some. Thanks for pointing this out.It is probably solid enough to reflect a big part of that 120Hz wave. Your measurement seems to show a low Q resonance.
joeinid
12-18-2015, 05:23 PM
Just curious. For those who are familiar with Revel Studio2/Salon2, can you compare those to the sound of JBL 4367? I know it's a different speaker but unless I can hear the 4367, a pair on Salon2 might be in my future.
pos, I am not discounting your theory to the point of not trying it. I will give your 72 cm height risers a go when I can cobble something together and get back to you with my findings. All I am saying is that bass, and even lower mid-range, passes back and forth very easily from adjacent rooms with thick walls but suspended ceilings. We ended up using several feet of insulation on top of the ceiling panels to kill the crosstalk. Perhaps the insulation factors into things as well.
Joe: We sell and stock both Revel Salon2 and Studio2 and have had them side by side in the same room with the 4367's. I'm sure you realize that these are my opinions below and don't represent any audio absolute.
First of all, I consider the Salon a far better speaker than the Studio provided one has at least a 500 wpc amplifier into 4 ohms to drive them with. If you have the right amp already, the bass extension, scale of sound stage and freedom from distortion is obviously a big step up. The Studio sounds like a slightly lower to the ground Salon with a high pass filter at 40hz. It's not that I don't like the Studio, it's very good for the money, but if you can afford the difference the Salon is just exceptional. It overall outperforms the similar retail priced B&W 800 Diamond and the Magico S3 that we also stock, and for considerably less actual money spent. Still if money is tight, we have a like new demo pair of Studio 2's we would let go for roughly the price of used.
I would describe the Salon as a terrific effort aimed at what I would describe as the now mainstream TAS, Stereophile audiophile market. Very uncolored over the whole range, very linear deep bass all the way up to the mid-range with no sense of a ported sound. Terrific imaging (in that it disappears very well), excellent treble extension and detail, yet a smooth and non-fatiguing luxury presentation. Is this speaker perfect? Not even close.
Do you want the sports car (always exciting but sometimes rough) or luxury car (rarely offensive but never very exciting) ride? There are engineering compromises here just like in audio so neither can be thought of as absolutely right or wrong.
The JBL 4367 is everything the Salon (and most other TAS/Stereophile audiophile speakers) are not. With good uncompressed recordings the best way to describe the JBL's is that they sound live, limited only by the dynamic range of the recording and your electronics. I mean live like standing next to somebody playing drums. Over 40 years of selling high end audio I have noticed that many people can interpret a very dynamic speaker as harsh even if the high frequencies are pristine and the tonal balance is spot on. They want built in natural compression, warmth and softness ala vinyl and low sensitivity speakers like they are used to. You will hear/feel more bumps in the recording/road with the JBL. It's more of a sports car ride.
Regarding imaging, the JBL's are not going to "disappear" to the degree the Salon's will. Large baffle/driver/horn radiating areas exhibit what I call low surface loudness (low sound density) like a piano, compared to a small 1 inch dome tweeter which has high surface loudness (high sound density) like a trumpet. On piano the JBL probably images more correctly in terms of scale, on a trumpet the Salon pin points it better between the speakers. It has been my experience that live music does not image like the playback from typical high end audio systems. One generally listens to live music at a far greater distance away than under home conditions and this causes more and longer room reflections to significantly blur imaging. The imaging effect of speakers "disappearing" in my opinion is an artifact from listening to recorded music in the sweet spot under relative near field conditions. I personally am not willing to trade away the dynamics and low distortion high output of the JBL for this artifact.
Perhaps because I play guitar in a live band, I find the JBL far more exciting, fun and realistic to listen too. However my experience in sales shows that the majority of "audiophile" listeners would prefer the Salon. However lately we have converted more people from the luxury car to the sports car ride. Perhaps the retro trend of rediscovering high efficiency speakers has something to do with this?
Finally, knowing you found the TAD Compact Reference One's fatiguing in the treble and are currently happy with Sonus Fabers (which I would describe as very polite in dynamics and soft in the treble), I would question whether the 4367 and it's horn top end is for you. Certainly you should not buy without hearing them first. One last thing to consider is the different form factor and your listening room. The JBL's are short and wide, the Revel's tall and narrow.
joeinid
12-19-2015, 08:53 AM
Hi John,
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, in depth no less, and give me the flavor of each speaker.
I totally understand what you are getting at and could be ready for a speaker like the 4367 to "balance" what I already have. I suspect the choice of amplifier could play an important role in maximizing the character of the 4367's. Maybe a sweeter solid state or tube amp could be a great compliment to them and still bring the excitement factor.
I only brought up the Studio2 because I owned them for a while and have to be honest. They were glorious with my CJ ART monos. I fondly remember sleepless nights endlessly playing "one more song" before bed. I suspect the Salon2 would be similar because I have friends with them and I love going to hear their systems.
Maybe if I had the CR-1's now, I'd be more inclined to work them to my advantage but there's no way I'd go back now. Time for something fun and exciting that does not need tremendous power to shine.
I do have several different amps that should be perfect on the 4367 and other similar speakers.
Thank you again and I look forward to reading more and talking to you should I decide to pull the trigger.
ps. For what it's worth, I thought about Magico too. I was hoping the S3 would be slated for a mark 2 upgrade as well. I'd be afraid to buy now based on all the recent updates and with my luck, once the speakers are delivered, the new version will be announced. In my mind, Magico are technically perfect but lack a little soul like my Strads have in spades.
Mr. Widget
12-19-2015, 11:13 AM
Joe: We sell and stock...Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed report. I have also had the privilege of spending extensive time with many of these speakers... not the 4367s, but many of these and my opinions are quite in line with yours.
Widget
Ian Mackenzie
12-19-2015, 12:21 PM
Hi John,
I agree with you observation of the live sound of the JBL.
In my own experience l have found the glare of many solid state amps a contributing factor less than optimal musical pleasure.
Pairing with a warmer but transparent amp in the highs like the Pass Aleph is a marriage in heaven for the like of our fellow 4343 owners in Japan. The Aleph is not noted for dynamics but the SE character seems to compensation for the liveness and you end up with a sweet presentation.
The live nature of the blue baffle series is un mistakable even if more refined in more contemporary models.
Ian, we used to be a Pass dealer and I agree the Aleph stuff would be a good choice for mid and top end listen-ability although not the ultimate in bass control or dynamics as you point out. Tubes can work great on JBL's although not as practical as the solid state Aleph. We have a customer who is pairing up an ARC REF-75 with a pair of Array 1000's and one could listen all night to his system without fatigue. I am getting good results with both new McIntosh as well as a stock late 70's MAC MC-2125 (120 wpc).
Widget, it's good to have some of my observations verified by another experienced listener.
Joe: The Magico S3 was the first of the S models to have a special mid range chamber providing lower distortion than the chamber the more expensive but slightly earlier to market S5 had.
Now the S5 has been updated to the S5mk2. I have not seen all the stats on the S5 mk2 but it is my understanding Magico was planning to use the S3 chamber in it. The S1 has also been updated to mk2 statues. Presumably eventually the S3 will also go mk2 even though it already has the chamber, but no mention of this has come from Magico yet. I agree the Magico's are very accurate and uncolored. System matching is extra key to give them some "soul" and make them inviting to listen to. I still prefer the Salon2 over the S3. It has better bottom end and I never hear them sound sterile like the Magico's can with the wrong gear on them. The S5 has enough better bass and dynamics over the S3 that it is my choice of the Magico models with out getting into the extreme expense of the Q series. The JBL sound can be addictive. With EQ, room treatment, room positioning and amplifier choices there are plenty of work-arounds for some of the minor colorations they can have.
joeinid
12-19-2015, 02:21 PM
I sincerely appreciate everyone's input here. I know we go off topic a little but it eventually comes back around so I apologize in advance for my off topic diversions.
John: Regarding the Magico updates, I believe the new mk 2 series also have some drivers and/or technology from the S7. I think the upgrades are or will be significant.
I am leaning back towards the 4367, just for the fun/live factor alone. I guess a consumer M2 implementation.
Everyone, please keep the 4367 observations coming. :D
Ian, we used to be a Pass dealer and I agree the Aleph stuff would be a good choice for mid and top end listen-ability although not the ultimate in bass control or dynamics as you point out. Tubes can work great on JBL's although not as practical as the solid state Aleph. We have a customer who is pairing up an ARC REF-75 with a pair of Array 1000's and one could listen all night to his system without fatigue. I am getting good results with both new McIntosh as well as a stock late 70's MAC MC-2125 (120 wpc).
Widget, it's good to have some of my observations verified by another experienced listener.
Joe: The Magico S3 was the first of the S models to have a special mid range chamber providing lower distortion than the chamber the more expensive but slightly earlier to market S5 had.
Now the S5 has been updated to the S5mk2. I have not seen all the stats on the S5 mk2 but it is my understanding Magico was planning to use the S3 chamber in it. The S1 has also been updated to mk2 statues. Presumably eventually the S3 will also go mk2 even though it already has the chamber, but no mention of this has come from Magico yet. I agree the Magico's are very accurate and uncolored. System matching is extra key to give them some "soul" and make them inviting to listen to. I still prefer the Salon2 over the S3. It has better bottom end and I never hear them sound sterile like the Magico's can with the wrong gear on them. The S5 has enough better bass and dynamics over the S3 that it is my choice of the Magico models with out getting into the extreme expense of the Q series. The JBL sound can be addictive. With EQ, room treatment, room positioning and amplifier choices there are plenty of work-arounds for some of the minor colorations they can have.
joeinid
12-20-2015, 07:37 PM
Sensitivity 1W @ 1m:
94dB
Nominal Impedance:
6 Ohms
Any ideas of the minimum realistic power requirements for these speakers? I'd like to think tubes first, solid state I am sure I can figure that out.
Joe:
McIntosh amplifier meters (any impedance 2-4-8-16 ohms) give pretty useful information especially with their peak hold function.
On the 4367 5 watts per channel even on peaks is what I would call a typical demo listening level (at 10-12 feet around 95db peaks and average volumes of around 80-85db depending on the peak to average ratio of your source). 50 wpc on peaks (10db louder) is rocking pretty good. Quite loud but not painfully so, and you are really starting to feel the music at these levels. I play in a rock band and would not want to listen any louder than this for very long. An honest 50-75 wpc tube amp should give you all the clipping free power you need for these levels and allow you to exploit the 4367's excellent dynamics. Since clipping on solid state is more harsh, I would probably double this number just to be on the safe side. If you want disco/party levels than 300-400 wpc is in order although I don't think anyone could stand these spl levels for long. Obviously hearing damage becomes an issue.
Nelson Pass put out an article demonstrating how loud his 10 wpc First Watt amplifier would play with a 95db sensitive Tannoy speaker. He used an oscilloscope to show the peak voltage remaining under the 1 watt envelope for a 95db spl playback. I don't have the link but it is probably on the First Watt website.
joeinid
12-20-2015, 09:03 PM
Hi John,
This is perfect. Thank you once again. I don't play very loud and only occasionally turn it up a little. Your figures are in line with what I was hoping to see. I think the 4367's could be a wonderful counterpoint to my Strads.
Joe
Joe:
McIntosh amplifier meters (any impedance 2-4-8-16 ohms) give pretty useful information especially with their peak hold function.
On the 4367 5 watts per channel even on peaks is what I would call a typical demo listening level (at 10-12 feet around 95db peaks and average volumes of around 80-85db depending on the peak to average ratio of your source). 50 wpc on peaks (10db louder) is rocking pretty good. Quite loud but not painfully so, and you are really starting to feel the music at these levels. I play in a rock band and would not want to listen any louder than this for very long. An honest 50-75 wpc tube amp should give you all the clipping free power you need for these levels and allow you to exploit the 4367's excellent dynamics. Since clipping on solid state is more harsh, I would probably double this number just to be on the safe side. If you want disco/party levels than 300-400 wpc is in order although I don't think anyone could stand these spl levels for long. Obviously hearing damage becomes an issue.
Nelson Pass put out an article demonstrating how loud his 10 wpc First Watt amplifier would play with a 95db sensitive Tannoy speaker. He used an oscilloscope to show the peak voltage remaining under the 1 watt envelope for a 95db spl playback. I don't have the link but it is probably on the First Watt website.
Joe: I did not realize you were keeping your Strads and adding another speaker. I was worried that trading the Strads for the JBL's would be to big of a change for you. Owning both speakers would be ideal for you.
joeinid
12-22-2015, 12:21 AM
Hi John,
I guess I did not make that clear. I have more than enough gear to add another pair of speakers and I absolutely love my Strads too much to give them up. I guess you'd be thinking why add another speaker then? I've almost always had multiple speakers for different flavors. I have another room that I'd like to set up the 4367's in or speakers like them.
Thanks again!
Joe: I did not realize you were keeping your Strads and adding another speaker. I was worried that trading the Strads for the JBL's would be to big of a change for you. Owning both speakers would be ideal for you.
Joe: I have always had the same desires for multiple systems to the point where I started an audio store! I have ProAc's in a living room, Everest's in the man cave, and the 4367's will end up in my vacation cabin in Colorado replacing my circa 2002 homemade JBL triamped speakers* which will move to my garage. The NHT Super Zero's, NHT sub and old Onkyo TX-8511 receiver currently in the garage will move to my basement.
*Unfinished 5 cubic foot vented box for 15 inch 2226H woofer, 2344a biradial horn with 2426H midrange compression driver and 2404H treble compression driver/horn. I drive them with a 6 channel JBL AVA7 (made by Lexicon 120 wpc) and a Marchand 3 way crossover. Not the lowest coloration but reasonably well balanced, dynamically fun and play as loud as you can stand it from 40hz-16khz.
VJunction
12-22-2015, 03:52 PM
Joe: I have always had the same desires for multiple systems to the point where I started an audio store! I have ProAc's in a living room, Everest's in the man cave, and the 4367's will end up in my vacation cabin in Colorado replacing my circa 2002 homemade JBL triamped speakers* which will move to my garage. The NHT Super Zero's, NHT sub and old Onkyo TX-8511 receiver currently in the garage will move to my basement.
*Unfinished 5 cubic foot vented box for 15 inch 2226H woofer, 2344a biradial horn with 2426H midrange compression driver and 2404H treble compression driver/horn. I drive them with a 6 channel JBL AVA7 (made by Lexicon 120 wpc) and a Marchand 3 way crossover. Not the lowest coloration but reasonably well balanced, dynamically fun and play as loud as you can stand it from 40hz-16khz.
ahhh, the infamous "Butt Cracks" :)
timlmd
12-24-2015, 08:29 AM
Where are the 4367s built? I tried blowing up the pictures posted by jpw, but I couldn't quite make it out. Mexico maybe?
Mexico is my guess too as North America was closed down back in 2010 I believe. I will look for country of manufacturer labels next week and report back.........
frank23
01-01-2016, 12:43 PM
*Unfinished 5 cubic foot vented box for 15 inch 2226H woofer, 2344a biradial horn with 2426H midrange compression driver and 2404H treble compression driver/horn. I drive them with a 6 channel JBL AVA7 (made by Lexicon 120 wpc) and a Marchand 3 way crossover. Not the lowest coloration but reasonably well balanced, dynamically fun and play as loud as you can stand it from 40hz-16khz.
@JPW Do you have a constant directivity compensation in the Marchand crossover? Reason I am asking is that I have considered Marchand a few times instead of my modded M553, but I don't think it has this CD compensation feature which is what is needed for the 2344 horn. Or do you have passaive compensation?
Sorry to go off topic :-)
Frank23: The system is all electronic low level crossovers, no passive parts. It's been 13 years since I did the prototype work initially using a Pass Labs XVR-1 crossover so unfortunately I don't remember the specifics. I only had the ability to measure basic on axis frequency response curves with a 1/3 octave Audio Control analyzer. I could not justify the cost of the XVR-1 in this system so I decided to go with the Marchand and have Phil build me crossover cards. The first cards did not match the response I got with the XVR-1 even though the slopes and frequencies I gave Marchand were the same. So I had Pass Labs talk directly with Marchand about what to build. The second set of cards got reasonably close. As I recall Q was a factor in why the first cards were off.
The problem with the system is that the 2226H 15" woofer really does not sound that good used above a few hundred hertz in a hifi system. I would have been better off with a lower efficiency but more linear into the mid range 15 inch JBL 136 or 2231. The 2226H's response becomes increasingly erratic as the frequency rises and has a significant peak around 400hz. This made it a challenge to mate with the 2344a. I think I ended up crossing over around 900hz but with asymmetrical high and low pass networks. On the other hand the 2344A mates very well to the 2405H going on up the spectrum. The big problem was/is between 300hz and 500hz which EQ helps but does not totally solve. They were my first effort at a DIY speaker. I know I could make them a lot better today if I started over......
frank23
01-02-2016, 02:58 AM
Yeah, I go to a 2123 10" mid at 150Hz that goes to the 2344 at 1600Hz and is used to 16kHz compensated. Sounds wonderful.
On topic:
Every now and then I check the site that has a pair of new 4365 for sale to see if they have a 50% off sale, but alas, it still hasn't happened...
joeinid
01-08-2016, 10:41 AM
Seems like my kind of speaker :D
http://highfidelity.pl/@main-622&lang=en (http://highfidelity.pl/@main-622&lang=en)
I agree with the reviewer on SET amp use. Why pay big money for a speaker who's strengths include fabulous dynamics and very low distortion and then couple it with a very low powered amplifier? It's like buying a 500 hsp sports car and then putting a electronic governor on it. I know amp choice is subjective and people will site the "soul" etc of SET sound, but in my opinion SET's are obviously colored and measurements known to correlate with sonic outcome corroborate this. Among the problems are not only high distortion, but asymmetrical waveform clipping and significant high output impedance induced frequency response errors, plus very low damping factor. As much as possible, I prefer my "soul" or "magic" to come from the performance, not the equipment. So for pursuit of neutrality no SET's. For pursuit of subjectively enjoyable sound anything seems to go these days.
I would find it far more useful if reviewers remarks about tonal balance referred to a frequency range (in hz) rather than describing the lower midrange as warm and the lower treble as bright as these do not mean the same thing to everybody. They definitely are not laid back sounding like so many speakers today that have a BBC like presence range (2khz-5khz) dip. Of course one can use the 4367's front panel controls to adjust this range as well as the top octave to taste. The most obvious departure from tonal neutrality is some excess of energy in the 80hz-200hz area. I agree they are quite coherent sounding with very good driver blending. He is right that the 4367 does not have much bottom octave bass (20-40hz). The best I am able to get with my 4367's in several different rooms firing down the long wall with listening position well away from walls is flat to 50-60hz quickly drooping to 6db or more down at 40hz. I think something closer to flat to 30hz-40hz is possible firing the short dimension with the couch closer to the back wall for some boundary reinforcement. This arrangement often allows a wider speaker spacing relative to the listening position which I happen to like. With a low tuning of 32hz and loads of output capability, EQ can also be safely used to extend the bottom end.
The 4367's sense of aliveness is the sonic knock out punch here. They have that live sound with no sense of strain as the SPL's climb. If you play in a band and are used to the sound of live drums and electric bass etc, you will love these. To me the 4367 delivers all of the strengths of JBL Pro speakers while still achieving surprisingly low levels of coloration that are normally reserved for the better "audiophile" speaker brands. Reviewing audio isn't easy!
4313B
01-09-2016, 03:26 PM
With a low tuning of 32hz and loads of output capability, EQ can also be safely used to extend the bottom end.Yes and G.T. has suggested this many times with all his designs. ;)
audiomagnate
01-10-2016, 12:21 AM
Most Japanese live in tiny apartments with lots of neighbors nearby. Live levels and extended bass response are simply not an option, so it's only natural that they would gravitate towards low output amps. Kind of like folks with limited funds out of necessity becoming fans of affordable "vintage" gear.
audiomagnate: Lol on your affordable so likes vintage comment.....
BMWCCA
01-10-2016, 10:23 AM
Kind of like folks with limited funds out of necessity becoming fans of affordable "vintage" gear.
Guilty!
But while I enjoy the less-than $4k I have in my whole system with 4345s, I ponder how long it will take the DD67000 to get to my price range given they've already depreciated over 50% when you look at new-in-box "demo" units offered by "dealers" versus the manufacturer's MSRP. I'm looking at used ads as low as $31,000 for a pair.
I just paid $10k for a car I've wanted since it was $50k new twelve-years ago. If current trends are any indication, I should be able to justify the DD67000 in maybe five more years, as soon as that decimal moves one notch to the left. :D
BMWCA: I must confess to be envious that you only have $4k in what must be an excellent system that is probably appreciating. On the other hand, I am enjoying my DD67's today, not five years from now. I suspect something closer to $18k-$20k will be the depreciation floor for them in excellent shape. As time goes on inflation and high technology will drive top of the line products even further up in cost making used attractive even at this high price. I also enjoy vintage audio having just bought an old but new to me McIntosh MC-2125. After recapping it I am surprised at how good it is even though it is not the last word in transparency, bandwidth and detail when compared with a new MAC amp.
I just delivered a pair of 4367's to an old customer for an in home trial. I was there a few hours helping him tear down his Array 1400's and set up the 4367's. He ended up enthusiastically trading in his 1400's.
He has a McIntosh MEN-220 digital room correction device so both speakers were auto corrected for the comparison. After correction the significant natural deep bass extension advantage of the 1400 was minimal*.
The 1400 Array images more like a conventional direct radiating audiophile speaker, disappearing better, where the 4367's imaging would be better described as a focused wall of sound.
The quality of the bass on the 1400 was it's biggest drawback. It was subjectively thicker and slower with less snap and impact than the 4367 and noticeably more muddy despite being corrected. Coherence from top to bottom was compromised on the 1400 for this reason. Comparatively the 4367 sounds almost like a one way system and it's dynamics are nearly constant with frequency where the 1400's woofer clearly can't keep up with the vertical horn.
Still there is a bit more sense of space and naturalness to the mids and highs with the vertical horn array on the 1400. While still measuring very smoothly, the 4367's balance is a bit more forward and aggressive in the broadband midrange and treble. The 1400 is more laid back and tonally warmer rather like a receiver whose bass tone control is set to 1 o'clock where conversely the 4367 has the treble control set to 1 o'clock. The difference in balance strikes me as more than just a frequency response difference. It might be helpful to think of the the 4367's presentation as one of sitting closer to the stage and the 1400 Array a bit further back.
Like others here, I can't help but wonder what JBL's best parts and construction might yield with the Array configuration. All in all though, the 4367 was the big winner in this specific comparison.
*I will add the caveat that after hearing and measuring these speakers in three different environments now, I feel that EQ is probably more necessary for them (versus the 1400 or other quality similar priced speakers) to sound their best as well as to have adequate bass extension to the 30-40hz region.
Like others here, I can't help but wonder what JBL's best parts and construction might yield with the Array configuration.
That would be the original Timbers Arrays:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?9951-Greg-Timbers-amp-DIY
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34253-Second-Annual-Lansing-Heritage-Awards&p=350237&viewfull=1#post350237
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=13892&stc=1&d=1142807250
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=59455&d=1373909212
4313B reported that GT stated that if he had to do it again he would probably use a single 15" instead of the 15"+12" arrangement.
So nowadays he would probably use a 2216nd (or 2216nd-1 if done with a passive filter).
As he also unplugged the 045Be this would result in a two way.
bubbleboy76
01-12-2016, 08:07 AM
What happens if you lay the 4367 on the side?
Then you get the vertical horn :)
Ian Mackenzie
01-12-2016, 10:39 AM
Correct.
The key in this design is minimising enclosure related diffraction along the long axis of the horn.
If you compare a tall narrow baffle loudspeaker to a short wide baffle loudspeaker the imaging of the narrow loudspeaker is always superior.
bubbleboy76
01-12-2016, 04:13 PM
Correct.
The key in this design is minimising enclosure related diffraction along the long axis of the horn.
If you compare a tall narrow baffle loudspeaker to a short wide baffle loudspeaker the imaging of the narrow loudspeaker is always superior.
I see. Makes sense.
I thought it was the vertical dispersion that was the key.
srm51555
01-13-2016, 06:56 AM
Kind of like folks with limited funds out of necessity becoming fans of affordable "vintage" gear.
Guilty of this also. But for me after years and years of buying affordable gear I realized one day that if I sold all of the items that were collecting dust I'd be able to build one really nice system.
4313B
01-13-2016, 07:31 AM
4313B reported that GT stated that if he had to do it again he would probably use a single 15" instead of the 15"+12" arrangement.
So nowadays he would probably use a 2216nd (or 2216nd-1 if done with a passive filter).
As he also unplugged the 045Be this would result in a two way.He reiterated this once again on January 2nd, 2016. The horn is to be mounted vertical above the low frequency transducer, free from any enclosure edges. The 1400 Array is an example.
joeinid
01-30-2016, 09:31 AM
Bump for any updates!
ivica
02-01-2016, 11:26 AM
He reiterated this once again on January 2nd, 2016. The horn is to be mounted vertical above the low frequency transducer, free from any enclosure edges. The 1400 Array is an example.
Hi 4313B,
Why not combination such as:18"+12".
As You have mentioned, such horn type (as 1400 Array), owing to the diffraction slot in the horn throat, better horizontal dispersion can be get.
regards
ivica
gtimbers
02-09-2016, 07:58 PM
Congratulations to those who have received their 4367's. There are a ton of misconceptions regarding the speakers. i can comment through the DV run after which I was no longer involved. The speaker is essentially similar to a 4365 in overall sound performance. There are some voicing differences partially due to my desires and partially as a result of the hardware used. The 2216Nd has the low TCR wire and is very kicky and dynamic as a result. The 2430 needs to be used an octave below where it is happy (as in the M2) and has an increased amount of 2nd harmonic distortion between 750 Hz and 1500 Hz as a result. It is not horrible, but it is about 10 dB higher than the 476Mg in that range and up to 20 dB higher than the 476Be over the same octave. The increased second comes from the 2430 being a ring radiator with no suspension. It is just difficult for it to move below 1500 Hz. The Mg diaphragm is twice as thick as the Be diaphragm so it resists motion in that range to a degree. The Be has the most freedom to move in the octave at and above crossover so it is the best of the three in that regard. With that said, the 2430 has a very detailed and musical sound and is a fine driver. It is capable of much higher output levels than any of the 476 family and is therefore well suited to Sound Reinforcement and Studio use. There is no silver bullet. With good things come bad things and one has to look at the total set of compromises. The 2430 is also about 1/3 the cost of the 476 precious metal drivers.
The design goal of the 4367 was to equal or surpass the performance of the 4365 in a smaller enclosure and for 1/3 less money! Done and Done. The system will thrive on LF EQ. There is plenty of headroom in the woofer so 4 - 6 dB of boost around 32 Hz will really spice up the mix.
The system has very nice imaging but it cannot touch any Array in that area because the horn orientation is the wrong direction and the horn is in a wide boxy enclosure. The M2 does better in this regard because the horn is symmetrical in pattern and designed to have a significantly wider coverage pattern. That just can't be done in such a compact horn as those in the 4367 and 4365. BTW, those two horns behave very similarly with neither having a major edge on the other in measured performance. They are not, however interchangeable physically and would require different EQ.
Also keep in mind that the M2 is full active. It has separate amplifiers, electronic and digital crossovers and a lot of EQ bands. All kinds of things large and small can be fixed with that kind of horsepower. The pure passive systems can only have a little shaping and perhaps a few low Q correction filters. In spite of that, there is often a musicality to passive systems that purely electronic ones just can't match.
With regards to charge coupling, the voltage needed to bias the cap pair is pulled from the input through a large resistor (to limit current) and a low leakage diode. The caps in the system are of very high quality so they retain the charge for a while. The beauty of this system not only eliminates the need for the battery and housing/mounting mechanisms but it tracks the signal level. At low levels, very little bias is necessary to do the job so things are fine. At really high levels, much more bias is necessary but the generation level goes up so things are fine. With a fixed battery voltage, it is possible to run out of bias at high levels. The diode method is a good improvement and in my opinion, sounds better than battery biasing. So suffer through the first 1 or 2 seconds of your first playing and then forget about it.
The 4367 is a good system for those who like the large Monitor format. It measures well, sounds detailed and musical but is lean in the bottom octave as are all of the post 1985 or so "Japan" product. The speed and excess excursion capacity of these systems makes them good candidates for EQ, or for the proper use of a subwoofer, say below 40 Hz. They do have a "live music" sound that is most difficult to achieve purely with direct radiators. If you are looking for an Audiophile loudspeaker with 3-dimensional imaging, a warm mellow midrange and no dynamics at all, look elsewhere. Without using the words Distilled Water you might look at another Harman brand if you are seeking elegant, luscious elevator music.
I used some concrete blocks to elevate the 4367's when I did Demo's at the factory. 6" to 8" height really helps. The systems are too short for typical American use. The trick is to get something that doesn't rock or tip. You will eat the bass kick immediately if any enclosure movement is allowed. The woofer kicks really hard and if any energy is consumed moving (rocking) the enclosure due to it not being properly coupled to the floor, you will lose bass kick and impact. The proper use and need for spikes (or equivalent) is not BS. It is based in sound theory and is easily demonstrable.
Mr. Widget
02-09-2016, 09:41 PM
Thanks for the peak behind the curtain.... very interesting post!
Widget
Mctwins
02-09-2016, 09:52 PM
Thanks for the info, Greg.
Retroman
02-10-2016, 08:50 AM
"The 2430 needs to be used an octave below where it is happy (as in the M2)." In general, shouldn't a HF driver be crossed-over an octave above where it is happy? Why does the 2430 need to be used an octave lower?
Ian Mackenzie
02-10-2016, 09:10 AM
"The 2430 needs to be used an octave below where it is happy (as in the M2)." In general, shouldn't a HF driver be crossed-over an octave above where it is happy? Why does the 2430 need to be used an octave lower?
As GT has discussed there are compromises in using the 2430 ie an increase in 2nd harmonic distortion compared to the precious metal drivers but the 2430 is 1/3 the cost. If it was used as you point out ie 3000 Hz this would be a significant compromise on the 2216 from 750-1500 Hz. GT compares the 2nd harmonic distortion in other drivers and ithe 2430 is not shocking and it goes much louder.
If you have listened to 2nd harmonic distortion at these frequencies it's not objectionable like odd harminic distortion.
gtimbers
02-10-2016, 09:50 AM
As Ian correctly stated, everything involves compromises. The 2430 has a distortion issue between 750 Hz and 1500 Hz compared to the 476 family. It does many other things extremely well including a significantly lower cost. The crossovers for systems using a 15" LF driver need to be no higher than 850 - 900 Hz or there will be other major issues. The M2 is around 700 Hz and the 4367 is 800 ish as I remember. This allows for good blending between the drivers, uniform power response, at least horizontally and stays out of the area in which the woofer response and distortion eats it. A bit more 2nd harmonic distortion is what this costs when using the 2430 driver.
As several listeners have noted, the 4367 sounds like a single transducer with essentially no trace of a crossover. If there were a major problem with the 2430, this wouldn't be possible. One of my trademarks was designing systems that sound blended, without that multiple transducer sound. They are not perfect in all ways, but I usually get that one characteristic right. That is probably the most difficult aspect of a large format 2-way system. The cool thing about a 2-way is that there is only 1 crossover point. Crossovers suck in general and the fewer and further between, the better. While it is easy to get a more uniform sound power curve with a multi-way direct radiator system, having 3 crossover points can cause some significant problems also. I had very good success with the 250 family and the Performance series, both dynamically and from a blending standpoint, but they were really difficult to do. Most 4-way direct radiator systems have a multi-transducer sound, to my ear, and are often rather lacking in dynamics.
LowPhreak
02-10-2016, 12:46 PM
...The system will thrive on LF EQ. There is plenty of headroom in the woofer so 4 - 6 dB of boost around 32 Hz will really spice up the mix.
The system has very nice imaging but it cannot touch any Array in that area because the horn orientation is the wrong direction and the horn is in a wide boxy enclosure. ...
Interesting to read about this model and the 4365 as I'm always curious about what's out there. Much appreciated, Greg!
A dozen years ago the 1400 Array or 4367 price range would have been right in my wheelhouse. However, these days I've opted for the Studio 590. I've found that it too likes a boost in the 30 Hz range of about 6dB in my room (with good placement, i.e. plenty of space from the rear & side walls) where the woofers have no problem with the added low end. The imaging/dispersion is similar to designs like the Array, having vertical orientation and a bi-radial horn. I can also say that spike feet improve things vs. no spikes, making sure that the cabs are plumb (all 4 spikes having equal contact, no 'wobble').
Not trying to take the thread off-topic but it might be useful to Studio 500 series owners if Greg would kindly expand a bit on their design as well, or I could start a new thread.
gtimbers
02-10-2016, 03:39 PM
Other than being a face only a Mother could love, the Studio series is really great sounding stuff. The little compression driver is amazing and Jerry Moro did a great job on the woofers. We had them made in China, but the supplier implemented Jerry's design. We had a jerk for an Industrial Designer at the time and his taste was all in his mouth. I did what I could to salvage the acoustics of the design and fortunately, they work as well as stuff costing 2 or 3 times the money. The fit and finish isn't so great but buy them for the sound. They use really good components so they should last a very long time.
4313B
02-10-2016, 04:36 PM
Thank you for these great posts Greg! :)
the 2430 is 1/3 the costJust for grins I had to see what the current disposition of these compression drivers was and I was surprised.
The D2430K is currently ~ 0.209 the cost of the 476Mg.
The 476Mg has gone up ~ 30% since the last time I checked its price about four months ago when I wanted to buy a single for a center channel (was NLA, I guess Harman found some since then). It was at the previous price since its first availability many years ago so this is the first price increase.
The trick is to get something that doesn't rock or tip.I am currently using these until I rebuild the enclosures with the horns vertical. Those cork 130A gaskets are not glued onto the frames of the 1501AL-2's. I never could get a pair of the metal trim rings, don't care anymore either. +6 dB boost at 28 Hz (Fb) tapering to flat at 140 Hz. Everything I could ever want for superb low frequency response. These are so good I am completely unmotivated to play around with my 2216Nd's and M2 waveguides. Maybe in a couple years. :dont-know:
badman
02-10-2016, 04:49 PM
Other than being a face only a Mother could love
A mother.... or an imaginative teenage boy.
Just sayin'.
JuniorJBL
02-10-2016, 06:01 PM
Thank you for these great posts Greg! :)
Just for grins I had to see what the current disposition of these compression drivers was and I was surprised.
The D2430K is currently ~ 0.209 the cost of the 476Mg.
The 476Mg has gone up ~ 30% since the last time I checked its price about four months ago when I wanted to buy a single for a center channel (was NLA, I guess Harman found some since then). It was at the previous price since its first availability many years ago so this is the first price increase.
I am currently using these until I rebuild the enclosures with the horns vertical. Those cork 130A gaskets are not glued onto the frames of the 1501AL-2's. I never could get a pair of the metal trim rings, don't care anymore either. +6 dB boost at 28 Hz (Fb) tapering to flat at 140 Hz. Everything I could ever want for superb low frequency response. These are so good I am completely unmotivated to play around with my 2216Nd's and M2 waveguides. Maybe in a couple years. :dont-know:
Those are really nice B!! Great job!! I am sure they sound fantastic. Are you using the 476 Mg or Be on them? I am sure there is a post somewhere around here with the info but I don't remember.
I really liked the 1200Fe under the vertical horn that Greg made at TD's house.
Thanks for stopin by with all of the great information Greg! :)
Shane
ronaltronics
02-10-2016, 07:29 PM
Just Got my 4367's in Black finish Greg.
Have not had time to rig them up yet but I am looking forward to it. Nice touch that you can purchase them in two finishes (Walnut or Black).
The X Wave Horn lens with the Black finish does look like the (DARK SIDE)....
Thanks for the posts, Hope all is well. Hopefully you will be back on the forum for many more moments.
4313B
02-11-2016, 04:48 AM
Those are really nice B!! Great job!! I am sure they sound fantastic. Are you using the 476 Mg or Be on them?Thanks! They have 476Be's. My 476Mg's are bolted onto M2 waveguides and sitting on the shelf along with the 2216Nd's.
bubbleboy76
02-11-2016, 05:04 AM
Very interesting information. Thanks Greg.
That just can't be done in such a compact horn as those in the 4367 and 4365. BTW, those two horns behave very similarly with neither having a major edge on the other in measured performance. They are not, however interchangeable physically and would require different EQ.
Nice to know, as an 4365 owner :)
Also keep in mind that the M2 is full active. It has separate amplifiers, electronic and digital crossovers and a lot of EQ bands. All kinds of things large and small can be fixed with that kind of horsepower. The pure passive systems can only have a little shaping and perhaps a few low Q correction filters. In spite of that, there is often a musicality to passive systems that purely electronic ones just can't match.
Time-alignement is a very nice feature of the active dsp setup, too me. Especially for these systems with a large offset of the drivers.
I used some concrete blocks to elevate the 4367's when I did Demo's at the factory. 6" to 8" height really helps. The systems are too short for typical American use. The trick is to get something that doesn't rock or tip. You will eat the bass kick immediately if any enclosure movement is allowed. The woofer kicks really hard and if any energy is consumed moving (rocking) the enclosure due to it not being properly coupled to the floor, you will lose bass kick and impact. The proper use and need for spikes (or equivalent) is not BS. It is based in sound theory and is easily demonstrable.
Hmmmm, me putting the speakers on casters was maybe not so good, after all...
1audiohack
02-11-2016, 05:04 AM
Those cork 130A gaskets are not glued onto the frames of the 1501AL-2's.
Now that is something I would have never thought of! That makes that whole speaker look so classically cool. I haven't put the rubber rings on my 1501-1's and might have to try that look.
Barry.
bubbleboy76
02-11-2016, 06:36 AM
They do have a "live music" sound that is most difficult to achieve purely with direct radiators.
This is what I love with my 4365s :)
Live concerts on blu-ray sometimes gives me goosebumps, like I was there.
They are time-machines as well. Especially when listening to Neil Young -Live at Massey Hall 1971. There must be some synergy with this recording and my system, I never want to go back to the future when listening to this one.
Retroman
02-11-2016, 07:07 AM
"He has a McIntosh MEN-220 digital room correction device so both speakers were auto corrected for the comparison. After correction the significant natural deep bass extension advantage of the 1400 was minimal*. The quality of the bass on the 1400 was it's biggest drawback. It was subjectively thicker and slower with less snap and impact than the 4367 and noticeably more muddy despite being corrected. Coherence from top to bottom was compromised on the 1400 for this reason."
What power amp was used for this comparison? The results you describe are in-line with mine when using a Mac power amp with autoformers to drive the 1400s'. I tried an MC402 and then a 302, both producing ponderous, ill-defined bass/mid-bass. Switched to Electron Kinetics Eagle 400 monoblocks and also a Crown Studio Reference 2 and the differences were night and day. The Macs sound warmer and sweeter in the mids' and top-end, but they are a poor match for the woofer section with their relatively higher output impedance and significantly lower damping factor.
Hmmmm, me putting the speakers on casters was maybe not so good, after all...No problem, you don't have 2216nd : your 1501Fe do not have kick to start with :p
bubbleboy76
02-11-2016, 07:36 AM
No problem, you don't have 2216nd : your 1501Fe do not have kick to start with :p
There are so much second harmonic distorsion when you speak, so I can not hear what you are saying! :)
bubbleboy76
02-11-2016, 08:00 AM
No problem, you don't have 2216nd : your 1501Fe do not have kick to start with :p
Jokes aside, I have always wondered how much more kick 2216nd has compared to my 1501fe. Maybe Greg can shed a light on that?
The specs I can read and understand, are in favour of 1501fe...
audiomagnate
02-11-2016, 08:14 AM
...Switched to Electron Kinetics Eagle 400 monoblocks...
I'm impressed! Nice amps. I'll bet they had a ton more "kick" than a transformer coupled McIntosh.
tom1040
02-11-2016, 08:57 AM
"He has a McIntosh MEN-220 digital room correction device so both speakers were auto corrected for the comparison. After correction the significant natural deep bass extension advantage of the 1400 was minimal*. The quality of the bass on the 1400 was it's biggest drawback. It was subjectively thicker and slower with less snap and impact than the 4367 and noticeably more muddy despite being corrected. Coherence from top to bottom was compromised on the 1400 for this reason."
What power amp was used for this comparison? The results you describe are in-line with mine when using a Mac power amp with autoformers to drive the 1400s'. I tried an MC402 and then a 302, both producing ponderous, ill-defined bass/mid-bass. Switched to Electron Kinetics Eagle 400 monoblocks and also a Crown Studio Reference 2 and the differences were night and day. The Macs sound warmer and sweeter in the mids' and top-end, but they are a poor match for the woofer section with their relatively higher output impedance and significantly lower damping factor.
That was my feeling as well. I had a McIntosh MC402 and the 1400 Arrays. I switched to a pair of Marantz MA9-S2 monoblocks and the bass tighten up considerable. Currently in process of getting the 4365's and wondering if a MC452 would 'work' with this speaker? Perhaps a pair of MC601's? I loved the Mc402 on my JBL S/2600's I had but that was only a 12" woofer. Some have indicated that McIntosh cannot drive the larger woofers as well. Is the 1501FE hard to drive/control like the LE-14H3 is with middle of the line powered McIntosh amps?(up to 400 wpc)
Mctwins
02-11-2016, 09:08 AM
Hallo!
I am very satisfied with my Crown MA5000i and pushes the bass on my 4365 with great result. I have also great bass treatment due to my Varitunes V4 and V6 that helps alot to control the 4365. The one gives the other.
I do belive that one MC452 is more than enough to drive 4367 or 4365.
:)
bubbleboy76
02-11-2016, 10:01 AM
That was my feeling as well. I had a McIntosh MC402 and the 1400 Arrays. I switched to a pair of Marantz MA9-S2 monoblocks and the bass tighten up considerable. Currently in process of getting the 4365's and wondering if a MC452 would 'work' with this speaker? Perhaps a pair of MC601's? I loved the Mc402 on my JBL S/2600's I had but that was only a 12" woofer. Some have indicated that McIntosh cannot drive the larger woofers as well. Is the 1501FE hard to drive/control like the LE-14H3 is with middle of the line powered McIntosh amps?(up to 400 wpc)
This norwegian guy tried dual mc601 on his 4365, and was not completely satisfied. I think he uses dual mc1.2 now. There are pics in the end of the thread:
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/mitt-anlegg-og-billedtra-der/43594-musikkloftet-mitt.html
McIntosh MC-452 works great with my 4367's. The MC-452 clearly has subjectively more bass control and quickness than the older MC-402. In fact it is better across the board. If you choose to use room correction so that bass peaks are removed and bass response is flat, you might find that an amps bass control becomes less of an issue. MC-601's which I also have, other than being more powerful, are so close to the sound of a 452 that I can not reliably tell them apart.
max432
02-11-2016, 01:03 PM
Received my 4367's yesterday. I've put in about 12 hours of listneing time so far and all I can say is wow. When I close my eyes I can visulize being at specific concerts where I saw the artist in my college days. Memories that have been locked away 30+ years!
I would not consider myself an audiophile and most audiophiles would not either but my Mcintosh MC302 amp, C50 preamp, and now the 4367's do exactly want I want. Allow me to get lost in the music.
tom1040
02-11-2016, 01:45 PM
McIntosh MC-452 works great with my 4367's. The MC-452 clearly has subjectively more bass control and quickness than the older MC-402. In fact it is better across the board. If you choose to use room correction so that bass peaks are removed and bass response is flat, you might find that an amps bass control becomes less of an issue. MC-601's which I also have, other than being more powerful, are so close to the sound of a 452 that I can not reliably tell them apart.
Interesting. Have you heard the 4365 with the McIntosh MC452?
LowPhreak
02-11-2016, 01:47 PM
Other than being a face only a Mother could love, the Studio series is really great sounding stuff. The little compression driver is amazing and Jerry Moro did a great job on the woofers. We had them made in China, but the supplier implemented Jerry's design. We had a jerk for an Industrial Designer at the time and his taste was all in his mouth. I did what I could to salvage the acoustics of the design and fortunately, they work as well as stuff costing 2 or 3 times the money. The fit and finish isn't so great but buy them for the sound. They use really good components so they should last a very long time.
Thank you for the reply, Greg.
Yes, they're not as handsome as say my old Nautilus 803s and REL Stentor III or others I've owned. I do like their sound better than the 803's though and that's saying something.
By the way - It took a bit of doing to get the cherry finish from Chris Smith in Northridge in undamaged condition, which was at least an improvement over the ubiquitous, very homely, generic black of not one, but a second pair of 580's that both had factory cab damage right out of the box. However, I've discovered that if you stay back at the listening position, or further back near the bar with a few drinks and keep the lights down, you might think they're some Avalons with that odd, angular style, (...the girls all look prettier at closing time?).
:D
Also had a helluva time getting replacement grilles from Chris (he couldn't find any for almost a year) because the originals didn't lay flush to the surface as they should in the area above the top woofer. I asked him how hard could it have been for the designer to spec another set of mounting studs there? I was going to return them. A bit careless design I'd say, or maybe it would have cost Harmin' another 13¢ per? :banghead: The new grilles still aren't great but I decided to give up the hunt and just live with it.
They sound very good and that's what matters. Thanks for the effort.
*Pardon me for the OT, gents. Carry on!
Interesting. Have you heard the 4365 with the McIntosh MC452?
I have not. But I have heard the S4700 on the MC-452 which is a similar speaker and had an excellent outcome.
I consider the MC-452 one of the great amplifiers of our time especially for it's price. Dead quiet, effortless, absolutely clean and huge sounding. Never lean or mean, never slow or lacking detail. I have yet to find a speaker it does not work well with, although system synergy means there is always a reason to try other amps for individual best result.
It's technical performance is unimpeachable and it also offers a level of protection for your expensive speaker drivers not available with other solid state amps. These features include anti clipping Power Guard, output transformers that can not pass DC, and Sentry Guard which prevents a shorted speaker lead from damaging the amp. In the last few years, my store had two separate pairs of Magico speakers damaged when DC took out both woofers in both pairs. Needless to say this was not covered under warranty and cost $3500. I won't mention the amplifier brand but will say that it is a revered high end name that all here would immediately recognize.
However if one is looking for ultimate bass control in an amplifier there are other amps that offer more than the MC-452. Most recently the Levinson 532H, Krell EVO 402, Krell Duo 300 and the ARC DS-450/225 Class D amps all offer more control, but not necessarily a more natural bass. Once again, if you do a comparison with different amps with a room corrected speaker, your conclusion may be different about how much control you think you need. Sometimes amps with the most control can end up sounding too lean or over damped in the bottom end.
tom1040
02-12-2016, 06:46 AM
This norwegian guy tried dual mc601 on his 4365, and was not completely satisfied. I think he uses dual mc1.2 now. There are pics in the end of the thread:
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/mitt-anlegg-og-billedtra-der/43594-musikkloftet-mitt.html
Wow. That is not a good indicator that the MC452 or MC601 mono blocks would be up for the job for the 4365. Interesting......
tom1040
02-12-2016, 07:55 AM
I guess I will use my Marantz MA9-S2 mono blocks on the 4365 and find something else for the Array's. There is no doubt in my mind that the Marantz will control those 15 inchers.....
Wow. That is not a good indicator that the MC452 or MC601 mono blocks would be up for the job for the 4365. Interesting......
I suspect the Norwegian audiophile has other problems than inadequate damping factor or inadequate power. Try reading this paper from Floyd Toole about damping factor. It's from around 1975 but the physics and math has not changed. The take away from this and other engineering papers is that damping factor has quickly diminishing returns over a factor of 20.
https://www.google.com/search?q=damping+factor+and+damn+nonsense&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=damping+factor+and+damned+nonsense
tom1040
02-12-2016, 11:16 AM
I suspect the Norwegian audiophile has other problems than inadequate damping factor or inadequate power. Try reading this paper from Floyd Toole about damping factor. It's from around 1975 but the physics and math has not changed. The take away from this and other engineering papers is that damping factor has quickly diminishing returns over a factor of 20.
https://www.google.com/search?q=damping+factor+and+damn+nonsense&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=damping+factor+and+damned+nonsense
I have never thought of damping factor as a huge factor in amps ability to control woofers and the complex crossovers that are designed today. Perhaps I should, I don't know.:dont-know: Since I got back into audio a few years ago, I have been advised that the 'current' a amp generates is a larger indicator of being able to 'control' speakers. The Marantz that I spoke about is known to have 150 amps of current(in short bursts)to handle such issues a speaker could have.
But what do I know? Not much. I just want to get this next amp purchase for the 4365 right.:)
sebackman
02-12-2016, 11:25 AM
Excuse a stupid question. Is the horn in 4365 and 4367 black or dark Grey (Antacit-ish)?
kind regards
//RoB
1audiohack
02-12-2016, 12:11 PM
My 4365's horns are a charcoal metalic with the metalic being closer to graphite gray rather than silver.
Barry.
sebackman
02-12-2016, 12:31 PM
Thank you.
-Just looking for inspiration on how to paint my WG's. On the other side, Black is such a happy color :-).
kind regards
//RoB
I have never thought of damping factor as a huge factor in amps ability to control woofers and the complex crossovers that are designed today. Perhaps I should, I don't know.:dont-know: Since I got back into audio a few years ago, I have been advised that the 'current' a amp generates is a larger indicator of being able to 'control' speakers. The Marantz that I spoke about is known to have 150 amps of current(in short bursts)to handle such issues a speaker could have.
But what do I know? Not much. I just want to get this next amp purchase for the 4365 right.:)
I am not suggesting your Marantz is not a perfect match for you. If you like the sound of it, that is all that should matter. Marantz builds a great amp.
However unless you have a very low impedance speaker, unlike the 4365, there is a limit to how much current you can actual draw from the amp because of Ohm's law. A 200 watt amp into 8 ohms only draws 5 amps continuous. Into 4 ohms only 7.07 amps. Even if your amp puts out double the power to 400 watts on peaks your max peak current is 10 amps into 4 ohms. Pull your amp lid or check a service manual on line to see your power supply rail fuse size for yourself. I will bet it is a fast blow style under 10 amps. Even figuring an instantaneous peak current and multiplying these values by 1.414 will not make this ultra high current argument work.
Assuming the Marantz can actually deliver the 150 instantaneous amps it claims, it would deliver 95,000 peak watts (not a typo) into a 4 ohms speaker. I think you can see that some rather optimistic marketing might be involved here. :)
Retroman
02-12-2016, 04:27 PM
"However unless you have a very low impedance speaker, unlike the 4365, there is a limit to how much current you can actual draw from the amp because of Ohm's law. A 200 watt amp into 8 ohms only draws 5 amps continuous. Into 4 ohms only 7.07 amps. Even if your amp puts out double the power to 400 watts on peaks your max peak current is 10 amps into 4 ohms. Pull your amp lid or check a service manual on line to see your power supply rail fuse size for yourself. I will bet it is a fast blow style under 10 amps. Even figuring an instantaneous peak current and multiplying these values by 1.414 will not make this ultra high current argument work. Assuming the Marantz can actually deliver the 150 instantaneous amps it claims, it would deliver 95,000 peak watts (not a typo) into a 4 ohms speaker. I think you can see that some rather optimistic marketing might be involved here. :)"
Are not Ohm's Law calculations valid for only for DC resistance? As speakers and amplifiers are AC devices, basic Ohm's Law formulas are not advanced enough to provide accurate values. It would be great if an electronics engineer reading this could elaborate on this topic!
"However unless you have a very low impedance speaker, unlike the 4365, there is a limit to how much current you can actual draw from the amp because of Ohm's law. A 200 watt amp into 8 ohms only draws 5 amps continuous. Into 4 ohms only 7.07 amps. Even if your amp puts out double the power to 400 watts on peaks your max peak current is 10 amps into 4 ohms. Pull your amp lid or check a service manual on line to see your power supply rail fuse size for yourself. I will bet it is a fast blow style under 10 amps. Even figuring an instantaneous peak current and multiplying these values by 1.414 will not make this ultra high current argument work. Assuming the Marantz can actually deliver the 150 instantaneous amps it claims, it would deliver 95,000 peak watts (not a typo) into a 4 ohms speaker. I think you can see that some rather optimistic marketing might be involved here. :)"
Are not Ohm's Law calculations valid for only for DC resistance? As speakers and amplifiers are AC devices, basic Ohm's Law formulas are not advanced enough to provide accurate values. It would be great if an electronics engineer reading this could elaborate on this topic!
Yes very true and I am not arguing against what you say. BUT, even allowing a lot of leeway for varying speaker impedance and phase angle the kind of current numbers some manufacturers throw around, even if really achieved, would be extreme overkill. They are also usually misleading in that one can not come close to passing 150 peak amps of current (as claimed in the post from Tom 1040 regarding a Marantz amp) through a 10 amp fast blow rail fuse. It's like claiming a 250 mph top end on a car but having it electronically limited to 120 mph.
I certainly am not saying current isn't important, but current clipping can be measured or calculated*. If current clipping was a problem with well designed amps at the high end of audio, it would be an easily solved problem by just making the output stage and power supply bigger. *Trying Googling "equivalent peak dissipation resistance" (EPDR) for a good article from Stereophile on the current demands faced by an amplifier driving a real world speaker.
Now back to the question by Tom 1040 about the McIntosh MC-452's suitability for driving the 4365's he has. I just don't think that the sonic disappointment reported by the 4365 owner in Norway using a McIntosh MC-452 has anything to do with current capability shortfall (unless some how he is on the wrong output tap). Neither the 4365 or 4367 are unusually low in impedance or severe in phase angle and both are also high in sensitivity. High current is far more important with the opposite combination. It's far more likely the intrinsic sound of the MAC amp just wasn't to his taste or that he has other problems in his system or room that he needs to consider.
LowPhreak
02-12-2016, 07:57 PM
Here's an idea: try this one -
Bass impact, overall bottom end, clarity, definition, spatial?
https://youtu.be/r8S7Nn6si0E
If your speakers don't let you commune with what Jack and Ginger are doing, get something else. ;)
hsosdrum
02-16-2016, 01:42 PM
Here's an idea: try this one -
Bass impact, overall bottom end, clarity, definition, spatial?
https://youtu.be/r8S7Nn6si0E
If your speakers don't let you commune with what Jack and Ginger are doing, get something else. ;)
Most definitely agreed, but for cryin' out loud don't make any judgements based on a YouTube video—use the DVD, which has a DTS surround soundtrack.
LowPhreak
02-16-2016, 02:06 PM
Most definitely agreed, but for cryin' out loud don't make any judgements based on a YouTube video—use the DVD, which has a DTS surround soundtrack.
Well of course not. It was just easier to post the YT link as an example. I have the disc and it's quite good.
tom1040
02-17-2016, 07:55 AM
I am not suggesting your Marantz is not a perfect match for you. If you like the sound of it, that is all that should matter. Marantz builds a great amp.
However unless you have a very low impedance speaker, unlike the 4365, there is a limit to how much current you can actual draw from the amp because of Ohm's law. A 200 watt amp into 8 ohms only draws 5 amps continuous. Into 4 ohms only 7.07 amps. Even if your amp puts out double the power to 400 watts on peaks your max peak current is 10 amps into 4 ohms. Pull your amp lid or check a service manual on line to see your power supply rail fuse size for yourself. I will bet it is a fast blow style under 10 amps. Even figuring an instantaneous peak current and multiplying these values by 1.414 will not make this ultra high current argument work.
Assuming the Marantz can actually deliver the 150 instantaneous amps it claims, it would deliver 95,000 peak watts (not a typo) into a 4 ohms speaker. I think you can see that some rather optimistic marketing might be involved here. :)
Well, I am NOT an engineer so I have not the slightest idea so I yield to you on this issue. No matter, really, as I know that a amps ability to control a woofer is more than just watts as I can attest when I changed out the MC402 (400 wpc) to the MA9-S2 (300 wpc @ 8 ohms). I am in the process of selling my Array's---was going to keep them but at this point I will have no room for them as I have a system in my basement that reminds me of my youth and I kind of like the sound. Nothing fancy at all, in fact some may call it low brow but I don't care-if it sounds good to me than that is all that matters. It consists of a Sansui G-8000, JBL 940 & Cerwin Vega DX-9 speakers; BSR eq and a Marantz SA-8001 sacd. Dynamic and loud!
The JBL 4365 should be a decent upgrade from the 1400's and I have a 1500 Array sub to help out if needed with the LF. I am certain the Marantz amps can drive these to stupid SPl and it will sound fine.
JeffW
02-17-2016, 08:43 AM
Seems like the 4365 are a few dB more sensitive than the 1400 Array, so if those amps drove the 1400s, I'd think the 4365 would be even easier. I'd use 'em! :D
Ian Mackenzie
02-17-2016, 11:47 AM
Not wanting to start an amp flame war but the back EMF of a woofer is going to be different reflected in an auto transformer to a number of parrell output devices with local feedback (to reduce the output impediance)..
The auto transformer is a nice idea for load matching and if you want a bullet proof design.
The actual loudspeaker bass damping is largely influenced by its mechanical Q and to an extent the electrical Q
The combined Q is called QTS. Designing the system for optimum bass performance assumes the voltage source while not an absolutely a perfect voltage source with an infinitely low source impediance it fits within a range typically less than < 0.1 ohms and > than 0.05 ohm.
The loudspeaker as a system also has in the passive mode a inductor in series with the woofer and a length of connecting cable.
In practise the manufacturer builds the latter into the system tuning and assumptions needs to be made about the source impediance of the amplifier for critical tuning.
The Mcintosh on paper has a rated damping factor of 40 wide band. That equates to 0.2 ohms.
Does this mean the the overall bass performance will be sub optimal? That's a subjective judgement but ideally a perfect voltage source is preferred given the dcr of the inductor and resident connecting cable.
tom1040
02-17-2016, 12:24 PM
Seems like the 4365 are a few dB more sensitive than the 1400 Array, so if those amps drove the 1400s, I'd think the 4365 would be even easier. I'd use 'em! :D
Correct. I plan on using them. As I have stated in the past, I think a lot of people equate current Marantz products with low to mid-fi level Home Theatre and not generally associated with a decent 2 channel stereo system. That, to me, is fine. I certainly cannot change the opinion of people and do not care to. These amps are suitable for me and that is all that matters. The only way others will know is if they actually could hear them. As far as the marketing spin concerning the current output, I am leaving it up to those who I respect for their knowledge of engineering as they are certainly more qualified than I am to render the facts.
JeffW
02-17-2016, 12:48 PM
I don't know, I like my Marantz AVRs and they're not even TOTL Marantz. Solid units, I wouldn't buy anything else. I looked at the newer/bigger 70XX line, but I honestly just don't need that much going on. I only upgraded one of my 5003s to a 5008 because I needed another HDMI input (and got a really good deal on the 5008), other than that, the 5003 was killing it - and still is in the man cave where 3 inputs is plenty.
Audiohack owns the 4365 and 1400 Array, he tossed out a theory that the more sensitive woofer in the 4365 means the compression driver doesn't need to be padded down as much to integrate with the woofer - plus the 4" vs 3" compression driver. All I can say is I really liked listening to the 4365 a lot!
VJunction
02-17-2016, 01:30 PM
For what it is worth, the amps discussed hear including the MC452 will work fine on the speakers in questions. The only factor I see is the users "sound of amp" preference. As stated some where earlier, room placement and room influnce are larger factory that gets overlooked.
ge
ngccglp
02-17-2016, 05:06 PM
Back to topic, not sure how's the bass of the 4367 running in for Jpw. I made similar comments on the bass of newer JBL designs, I noticed the goal seemed to be more to achieve very good mid bass articulation and speed over Low bass extension. That was my experience with the 4365 and M2. I think for certain genre of music (acoustic jazz, vocals) that would work wonderfully, but for rock or rap or music with lots of Low bass content, there's a feeling of 'Can't Get Enough'...
Back to topic, not sure how's the bass of the 4367 running in for Jpw. I made similar comments on the bass of newer JBL designs, I noticed the goal seemed to be more to achieve very good mid bass articulation and speed over Low bass extension. That was my experience with the 4365 and M2. I think for certain genre of music (acoustic jazz, vocals) that would work wonderfully, but for rock or rap or music with lots of Low bass content, there's a feeling of 'Can't Get Enough'...
Agreed. I would again mention that the 4367's (and most other JBL's I have heard over time) are somewhat ripe in the mid to upper bass. To me there is an unfortunate consumer preference driving this voicing that the vast majority of speaker companies understandably cow tow to. Too much bass output in this 80-200hz range actually obscures the deep bass reproduction that is there. So once again back to the need for quality EQ for me, which most if not all JBL's, especially the 4367, accepts very gracefully. Other brands not so well.
My guess is that after 15-20 hours playing time, 80% of break-in is done. The bass becomes more linear and deeper after this time. The overall sound is more relaxed and less forward. Also don't forget that to have the proper balance they need stands in the 5-8 inch height range depending on your ears listening height. Minor complaints aside, I can wait to listen to my 4367's. Very dynamic and alive sounding with low listening fatigue even at elevated levels.
Mctwins
02-19-2016, 05:27 AM
Hallo!
I really don't understand what you guy's are talking about regarding bass performance on 4365 or 4367.
I have absolutely no problems listening to rock, rap or even funk music. These speakers can play what ever music categories that is out there. These speakers is not design for specific type of music. Let's say only classical music.
And, I don't use any extra sub.
The problem lies in small room acoustics. and the corntrol of the modal resonances in the room.
How come that the "Spinorama Data" or "JBL 4367 Acoustics Summation" in the white paper showing flat freq response.
4313B
02-19-2016, 08:31 AM
I really don't understand what you guy's are talking about regarding bass performance on 4365 or 4367. It might have to do with what some folks might be used to. If they grew up listening to systems based on transducers like the 124/2203, LE14, 2231/2235 or 2245 they might be used to a bit more very low frequency response.
Copying what Greg, the designer of all these systems, posted earlier in this thread:
The 4367 is a good system for those who like the large Monitor format. It measures well, sounds detailed and musical but is lean in the bottom octave as are all of the post 1985 or so "Japan" product. The speed and excess excursion capacity of these systems makes them good candidates for EQ, or for the proper use of a subwoofer, say below 40 Hz.
The design goal of the 4367 was to equal or surpass the performance of the 4365 in a smaller enclosure and for 1/3 less money! Done and Done. The system will thrive on LF EQ. There is plenty of headroom in the woofer so 4 - 6 dB of boost around 32 Hz will really spice up the mix.
I personally have found that he is correct. Although I can listen to these newer systems right out of the box, I personally prefer a few dB of boost at Fb. The M2 already has this boost by virtue of the config file.
Mctwins
02-19-2016, 08:52 AM
It might have to do with what some folks might be used to. If they grew up listening to systems based on transducers like the 124/2203, LE14, 2231/2235 or 2245 they might be used to a bit more very low frequency response.
Copying what Greg, the designer of all these systems, posted earlier in this thread:
The 4367 is a good system for those who like the large Monitor format. It measures well, sounds detailed and musical but is lean in the bottom octave as are all of the post 1985 or so "Japan" product. The speed and excess excursion capacity of these systems makes them good candidates for EQ, or for the proper use of a subwoofer, say below 40 Hz.
The design goal of the 4367 was to equal or surpass the performance of the 4365 in a smaller enclosure and for 1/3 less money! Done and Done. The system will thrive on LF EQ. There is plenty of headroom in the woofer so 4 - 6 dB of boost around 32 Hz will really spice up the mix.
I personally have found that he is correct. Although I can listen to these newer systems right out of the box, I personally prefer a few dB of boost at Fb. The M2 already has this boost by virtue of the config file.
I understand the point here.
I am just listening to my 4365 and in my dbx260 adjusted the 32hz with a boost of 6dB both in PrePeq and in Post Peq seperatly. With various Q factor.:dont-know:
Greg dosen't meantion what Q factor and "around 32Hz" means from 25-40Hz?
Honestly, I don't hear any difference in my system with this boost on or off.
If M2 has these boost dosen't mean that the 4365 has to have it, or??
Mr. Widget
02-19-2016, 09:02 AM
Honestly, I don't hear any difference in my system with this boost on or off.
Most music doesn't have appreciable content down there, but if the music does, you should hear the difference.
Widget
Mctwins
02-20-2016, 02:33 AM
Most music doesn't have appreciable content down there, but if the music does, you should hear the difference.
Widget
Thanks for the info, I am aware of this.:)
I will later on test it again with good content bass music.
grumpy
02-20-2016, 02:44 PM
Also recall that 6dB, in human hearing terms, isn't a huge difference ... even though the increase in power is quite significant (watch those excursions and clip indicators:) ).
Earlier this week I was treated to a listening session where each of four 15" drivers had a dedicated ~1000w amp. This did not seem excessive and the system (in room) firmly reached the mid 20's, which was indeed quite noticeable with the right material.
ngccglp
02-22-2016, 01:22 AM
Hallo!
I really don't understand what you guy's are talking about regarding bass performance on 4365 or 4367.
I have absolutely no problems listening to rock, rap or even funk music. These speakers can play what ever music categories that is out there. These speakers is not design for specific type of music. Let's say only classical music.
And, I don't use any extra sub.
The problem lies in small room acoustics. and the corntrol of the modal resonances in the room.
How come that the "Spinorama Data" or "JBL 4367 Acoustics Summation" in the white paper showing flat freq response.
Mr Widget is right, if its in the music you would hear it.
Also because you do not have a system to compare it with, you would not know what is missing...
Ian Mackenzie
02-22-2016, 05:17 AM
I think authority and bass extension go hand in hand.
Mctwins
02-22-2016, 11:10 AM
Hallo!
I have now tested with a tune from youtube with good 20-40Hz bass content. I can see this from the input signal of dbx260.
I agree, now I can hear the difference with boost at 32hz with 6dB and Q-factor between 4,410 and 5,016 Bell shape.
:)
Mctwins
02-22-2016, 11:24 AM
Mr Widget is right, if its in the music you would hear it.
Also because you do not have a system to compare it with, you would not know what is missing...
Hallo!
Don't worry!
There is a system that I can compare the 4365 with, is this.
Totally differen't ballgame:)
When those twin 4641 kicks in one can clearly hear thundering bass shaking content at 20-80Hz. The 4365 has no chance in comparison.
Mr. Widget
02-22-2016, 11:45 AM
Do you have a perf screen that drops down in front that gear? And if not, why not?
Widget
rusty jefferson
02-22-2016, 11:59 AM
How about a link to those RPG panels on the ceiling? What are they made from? Interesting room.
Mctwins
02-22-2016, 12:01 PM
Do you have a perf screen that drops down in front that gear? And if not, why not?
Widget
No, there is not a perf screen. Only LCD-TV as shown in the picture.
My twin brother does not like projectors.:)
srm51555
02-22-2016, 12:18 PM
Mc"Twins" very clever.
That setup looks awesome.
DavidF
02-22-2016, 04:51 PM
No, there is not a perf screen. Only LCD-TV as shown in the picture.
My twin brother does not like projectors.:)
He does not like video projectors, I take it? Those horns seem like they would 'project' quite effectively... :p
ngccglp
02-23-2016, 03:41 AM
Hallo!
Don't worry!
There is a system that I can compare the 4365 with, is this.
Totally differen't ballgame:)
When those twin 4641 kicks in one can clearly hear thundering bass shaking content at 20-80Hz. The 4365 has no chance in comparison.
Then you would know what I'm talking about...
Mctwins
02-26-2016, 07:29 AM
Then you would know what I'm talking about...
Yes, I do.
Mctwins
02-26-2016, 07:35 AM
How about a link to those RPG panels on the ceiling? What are they made from? Interesting room.
These are not RPG products, not a singel one, accually.
All of the treatment is from SMT http://www.diffusor.com/
rusty jefferson
02-26-2016, 08:25 AM
These are not RPG products, not a singel one, accually.
All of the treatment is from SMT http://www.diffusor.com/
Thanks for the link. Can't translate it on my phone, but I'll look later. Very interesting treatment to that room.
joeinid
04-25-2016, 02:49 PM
bump
Anyone have any updates on the 4367 sound?
johnhere
07-14-2016, 04:54 AM
Any updates now? Had OP compared 4367 and 4365 side by side?
husq2100
07-15-2016, 06:24 PM
Widget made mention of a finish having a manufactured appearance that is off-putting. I am familiar with reconstituted wood veneer that fits that description though its hard (for me) to confirm this is what is on these 4367s. Reconstituted wood is actually layers of thin sheets of an abundant species that are glued and then pressed together. The wood can be died to mimic a particular species. That may well be what JBL used for your cabinets. The cost of the product (based upon my casual shopping for veneers over the past year) is not much less on a retail basis than veneer of the most common species (oak, walnut, beech, etc). It may be that because of its uniformity and lack of defects that it costs less in terms of waste and man-hours in the production process.
We may all agree that it lacks the appeal and distinction of some flat cut veneer hardwoods. Still it is wood, it is far more sustainable and it might get JBL California carbon offsets http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon6.png. Who knows, it may also be a look into the future when we are told we can't buy natural wood lumber anymore.
Funny, I was looking at my S4600 and thinking the grain and vertical pattern, extremely simliar, but mine are Cherry. That made me think they could possabily use the same base veneer and then stain/coat to suit speices look?
LowPhreak
07-16-2016, 03:02 PM
Funny, I was looking at my S4600 and thinking the grain and vertical pattern, extremely simliar, but mine are Cherry. That made me think they could possabily use the same base veneer and then stain/coat to suit speices look?
Given what we've seen from JBL for the past several years, I would put nothing past them in the rush to maximize profits and "shareholder value". Even if, as DavidF said, reconstituted wood veneer costs not much less than veneers of common woods and they could easily afford to do better on cabinet finishes in a given price range, when they can squeeze another nickel of profit margin out here or there by cutting corners that's what they'll do. The less-than-stellar design of my 590's grilles is evidence of that.
Then call it "opportunity!" and "innovation!" and "success!" and assorted feel-good but vague terminology, because that's all they teach in business schools anymore. What it really is is bullshit that tries to justify profit-making and greed at the expense of all else.
Dave M
12-17-2016, 01:02 PM
The 4367 is a good system for those who like the large Monitor format. It measures well, sounds detailed and musical but is lean in the bottom octave as are all of the post 1985 or so "Japan" product. The speed and excess excursion capacity of these systems makes them good candidates for EQ, or for the proper use of a subwoofer, say below 40 Hz.
Above Greg's comment is very reasonable for who knows Japanese market, and I know that very well. The reason why they do not need low frequency extension is not due to the room size, but due to a stereotype in Japan, JBL is THE speaker for acoustic music, especially for Jazz, and when they say Jazz, it means Jazz from 50s-60s. There is also a consensus in Japan that lighter woofer cone sounds better for acoustic music, weight ring on modern woofer is evil, artificial and DISCO.
The funny thing is, the most influential "HIGH END" audio magazine in Japan, STEREO SOUND (Stereophile equivalent) regularly hires about 6 top critics in Japan, and 3 critics out of 6 critics are using JBL / Altec based horn system as their own personal speakers (D130/375/075, S9500, 418A/TAD4001). Those 3 critics only listen to Jazz and classical music. The other 3 critics uses Magico, YG Acoutics and B&W, and they mostly listen to pop or female vocal music. Those 2 parties are fighting all the time, and it has been a good entertainment for Japanese audiophile.
Ian Mackenzie
12-17-2016, 06:14 PM
Some of these rather ancient systems are highly sort after in Japan
Some years ago a theatre chain upgraded their movie sound system and someone bought up the old systems and sold a container load to the Japanese market
If anyone knows Thomas Dunkers web page - horns, there are numerous mentions of Japanese high efficiency horn systems.
They take jazz seriously over there.
In Japan (2008) l saw JBL 4343-4344 in jazz bars around Tokyo.
One had massive Pass Aleph 2 mono blocks driving the 4343s
The de facto boomy bass we love is really the effect of a big box with a maximally flat bass reflex tuning in the floor wall boundary.
The Japanese production uses the banana curve in the bass.
GT has mentioned this previously.
This results in a smooth bass but nothing like loudness effect or "boom" we are accused to.
The Japanese sound is certainly more hifi but l would not call that more enjoyable.
audiomagnate
12-18-2016, 08:20 AM
Some of these rather ancient systems are highly sort after in Japan
Some years ago a theatre chain upgraded their movie sound system and someone bought up the old systems and sold a container load to the Japanese market
If anyone knows Thomas Dunkers web page - horns, there are numerous mentions of Japanese high efficiency horn systems.
They take jazz seriously over there.
In Japan (2008) l saw JBL 4343-4344 in jazz bars around Tokyo.
One had massive Pass Aleph 2 mono blocks driving the 4343s
The de facto boomy bass we love is really the effect of a big box with a maximally flat bass reflex tuning in the floor wall boundary.
The Japanese production uses the banana curve in the bass.
GT has mentioned this previously.
This results in a smooth bass but nothing like loudness effect or "boom" we are accused to.
The Japanese sound is certainly more hifi but l would not call that more enjoyable.
I don't equate lack of low end extension with "hifi."
Ian Mackenzie
12-18-2016, 09:33 AM
You might not but HiFi is not about low bass.
I guess that is the point of the Japanese market and why they are voiced for them and not for western taste.
Just eq it like GT said .
BMWCCA
12-18-2016, 10:51 AM
You might not but HiFi is not about low bass.
I guess that is the point of the Japanese market and why they are voiced for them and not for western taste.
Just eq it like GT said .Hi-Fi means high-FIDELITY. To me, that means faithful sound reproduction. If the program material or the live performance in a recording has low bass, a high-fidelity system should be able to reproduce all frequencies across the spectrum at the same level as the original material. To me that means flat response as low as it can go. Sure, there might not be much program material under the roll-off point. Or there might be. But how will we ever know if the speakers can't be faithful to the original music? Fidelity = Faithful. The opposite would be "inaccurate".
My 4345 clones will reproduce the full range of an extended double-bass even at low levels in my living room, just as if the artist was sitting in the chair next to my speakers. C1 is approximately 33Hz which is still an octave above what the human ear hears. The 4345 is pretty flat to that point. So why roll it off if the frequency is there? And, if it is rolled-off, how it that being faithful to the original performance?
My 4345 clones will reproduce the full range of an extended double-bass even at low levels in my living room, just as if the artist was sitting in the chair next to my speakers. C1 is approximately 33Hz which is still an octave above what the human ear hears. The 4345 is pretty flat to that point.Are you sure of that?
Did you try and actually measure them at your listening position(s)?
Anechoic response is one thing (and an important one of course) but real world situations are pretty far from that in a living room.
The smaller the room the higher the frequency under which modes start to get noticeable, and of course the harder the wall the mode pronounced the modes.
That is one big difference between typical North American, European and Japanese rooms.
This is one area where HIFI needs EQ (as well as acoustical treatments, strategically calculated placements, etc.).
And even then, accuracy at LF takes a lot of effort and acoustical considerations, and are close to impossible to reach in a living room.
Ian Mackenzie
12-18-2016, 02:37 PM
Okay
My reference to hifi (diddle dee) was a general statement and in the context of the discussion.
I guess if l could only read "one" word at a time l might start an endless discussion on the definition of hifi but that is not the point of this thread.
Btw, in terms of subject matter evidence have you actually listen to the 4367, the 4365, the 4338 or the 9800 or the 66000?
"Actually " l have.
To coin a phase from a senior member with vast experience and who's name I will not disclose "in comparison listening to the 4345 is not a hifi experience". God damn it.
So your definition of hifi is perhaps limited in its interpretation and maybe the 4345 is not a good yardstick to be pissing everyone off with who does not have the 4345?
BMWCCA
12-18-2016, 04:24 PM
Okay
My reference to hifi (diddle dee) was a general statement and in the context of the discussion.
I guess if l could only read "one" word at a time l might start an endless discussion on the definition of hifi but that is not the point of this thread.
Btw, in terms of subject matter evidence have you actually listen to the 4367, the 4365, the 4338 or the 9800 or the 66000?
"Actually " l have.
To coin a phase from a senior member with vast experience and who's name I will not disclose "in comparison listening to the 4345 is not a hifi experience". God damn it.
So your definition of hifi is perhaps limited in its interpretation and maybe the 4345 is not a good yardstick to be pissing everyone off with who does not have the 4345?
I wasn't arguing in favor of the 4345 beyond an example against your assertion that less low-end in Japanese systems equates to more "hi-fi". It's fantastic that you've had the chance to listen to everything out there when I have not, and I don't have any need for proselytizing anyone to the cult of the 4345. I have over a dozen JBLs and they just happen to be my favorites. Sure many are nothing more than C35 030, 250Ti, and L7s. If JBL made the others available to normal folk to hear, I'd love to have a listen. No place I know within 600-miles of Virginia to do that. My response was to your definition of "hi-fi" being in opposition to bass extension. Quit reading any more into it. And I have an EQ in every system, mostly to compensate for low-level listening, if that matters to you.
Yes, I have done measurements of my 4345 in my room. Don't recall how low I measured and don't have the charts I used. It was a simple test with a tone generator we use for live-sound and a dB meter at the prime listening position when I was setting up the bi-amped 4345s. The room is fairly small, around 12'x16', well padded with furniture, with open outlets at each side opposite the speakers. I'd like nothing more than to try a 66000 or 67000 in my new house, but that's not going to happen. Doesn't mean I can't disagree with you.
Somehow your claiming I'm pissing someone else off seems to be the pot and the kettle all over again! Can't anyone disagree with what you post without being insulted?
And a happy holiday to all the scrooges who want to take me on for merely stating an opinion! Sheesh!
:happyh:
Ed Zeppeli
12-18-2016, 05:15 PM
I have to agree with the assertion that fidelity = true to source. One cannot have reduced output at low frequencies (or any frequency for that matter) and still call it faithful to the source. Music is evolving and much of it is electronically generated. The fact that this transition isn't in line with the spectrum of traditionally classical instruments is redundant to the argument over whether a speaker system reproduces it accurately or not.
Luckily for us there are many more attributes besides frequency response to discuss when arguing over which system sounds better.
I have to agree with the assertion that fidelity = true to source. One cannot have reduced output at low frequencies (or any frequency for that matter) and still call it faithful to the source.
True, but one cannot read anechoic bandwidth and assert much about in-(living)room LF response.
Ian Mackenzie
12-19-2016, 05:29 AM
I have to agree with the assertion that fidelity = true to source. One cannot have reduced output at low frequencies (or any frequency for that matter) and still call it faithful to the source. Music is evolving and much of it is electronically generated. The fact that this transition isn't in line with the spectrum of traditionally classical instruments is redundant to the argument over whether a speaker system reproduces it accurately or not.
Luckily for us there are many more attributes besides frequency response to discuss when arguing over which system sounds better.
That's an ideal from an arm chair but in the real world engineering compromises exist and often aiming for more low end extended bass results in less than satisfactory performance everywhere else unless it was the size of morgue refrigerator. Lol.
If it was as easy as our friend above says on capital hill of his 4345 every loudspeaker on the planet would do it.
The simple fact is the 4345 is one of a handful of loudspeakers that can play bass at useful levels without undue distortion. Cubic inches matter.
I therefore find the notion of low bass a dead end argument as a necessary hifi attribute. Then of course there is the recording and the listening room.
Perhaps Pos might calculate the lowest useful bass in our friends room?
As GT has stated many times the new systems have superior resolution, transparency and much superior imaging.
When you actually hear these systems they have a far more refined presentation compared to the classic vintage sound.
From that perspective they are closer in presentation to other notable hifi loudspeakers than the vintage sound hence my remark.
Of course there are people who ritualistically listen to and do the same thing over and over and they like what they here.
The people that matter have purchased these systems and are entirely satisfied.
rusty jefferson
12-19-2016, 08:34 AM
......The Japanese sound is certainly more hifi but l would not call that more enjoyable.
I don't equate lack of low end extension with "hifi."
You might not but HiFi is not about low bass.......
In the circles I move in, when someone says a system sounds "HiFi (ish)" it means a system that was popular in the mid '60s. Maybe a console with a Scott or Fisher amp, loose kinda tubby bass, restricted highs, and usually good midrange. Great for enjoying Sinatra or Ella.
Ian Mackenzie
12-19-2016, 12:01 PM
Well in the context of new Audio equipment (not high end) you only have to walk into a shop and listen
hsosdrum
12-19-2016, 01:51 PM
This whole discussion is an example of how the idea that an audio system's only goal is to faithfully reproduce an acoustic event is just plain wrong. To those of you who agree about 'fidelity' to an acoustic event, I must ask you: Were you present when any of the recordings that you use for system evaluation were recorded? If not (and I bet you weren't), then how can you possibly know what they're supposed to sound like? You can't, of course. And without knowing what the recording is supposed to sound like, all bets are off about 'fidelity' to that original acoustic event. You may be able to make some rudimentary judgments about fidelity to some general ideas about how acoustic instruments often sound, but you can never really get any closer than that. And considering the huge number of variables that enter into the recording chain (the sound of the particular instrument, the player's technique, the room's effect on that sound, mic choice, mic placement, electronic alterations made by the producer/engineer, etc., etc.) that really isn't very close.
The simple fact is that an audio system's true purpose is to create an illusion, and that illusion can run anywhere from "Real humans are playing acoustic instruments in my listening room in real-time whenever I listen" to "The impact of that bass thump is shaking my teeth, just like it did at the EDM rave last month! This is the best audio system EVER!!!" Both illusions are equally valid as reasons to own and listen to an audio system. A system that excels at the first illusion may or may not excel at the second illusion, and visa-versa. This doesn't make either system right or wrong, it only makes them better or worse for a particular listener.
The more we understand that not everyone's the same and the less audio snobbery that's involved in discussing our hobby the better.
jblnut
12-19-2016, 02:38 PM
Agreed on the snobbery part...and how in the world did this come to pass on this web site:
"Sure many are nothing more than C35 030, 250Ti, and L7s"
When did the 250Ti become the same as some ancient 2-way or a 90's Best Buy special L7 ?
Lol...strange days indeed!
Happy Holidays all !!! Hoping someday for Santa to drop some 4365/4367's under my tree :-)
jblnut
Mr. Widget
12-19-2016, 04:42 PM
Happy Holidays all !!! Hoping someday for Santa to drop some 4365/4367's under my tree :-)
:happyh:
You must have one hell of a tree to get either of those speakers under it. :bouncy:
Widget
SEAWOLF97
12-19-2016, 05:18 PM
When did the 250Ti become the same as some ancient 2-way or a 90's Best Buy special L7 ?
when you setup and use the L-7's , but leave the 250Ti's in the box
BMWCCA
12-19-2016, 08:14 PM
when you setup and use the L-7's , but leave the 250Ti's in the boxOver the past year I've probably played the 250ti more than either of my L7s. I haven't played the 250ti very much though because I want to replace the surrounds on the 14s. They're not torn but they are fragile. I'm in no hurry, I have the 4345s to listen to when I want to do some deep listening. Otherwise, in my second room I'm quite content to listen to the LSR305s, or the 4412As.
The LSRs are the poster-child for why you don't need low bass to enjoy music, though the 4345 have spoiled me! :cheers:
And the subtleties of the way a D130 plays string recordings is still something I enjoy after having them in my home for over 50-years! Don't knock it until you've tried it. I drive old cars, too, because I enjoy them. And yet every day I experience the latest and greatest from many automotive manufacturers. Doesn't mean I can't appreciate their predecessors for what they do well.
hsosdrum
12-20-2016, 12:54 PM
Over the past year I've probably played the 250ti more than either of my L7s. I haven't played the 250ti very much though because I want to replace the surrounds on the 14s. They're not torn but they are fragile. I'm in no hurry, I have the 4345s to listen to when I want to do some deep listening. Otherwise, in my second room I'm quite content to listen to the LSR305s, or the 4412As.
The LSRs are the poster-child for why you don't need low bass to enjoy music, though the 4345 have spoiled me! :cheers:
And the subtleties of the way a D130 plays string recordings is still something I enjoy after having them in my home for over 50-years! Don't knock it until you've tried it. I drive old cars, too, because I enjoy them. And yet every day I experience the latest and greatest from many automotive manufacturers. Doesn't mean I can't appreciate their predecessors for what they do well.
+1, BMWCCA! I'm sure a 2017 Corvette is a way better car than a '63 Stingray, but you bet I'd jump at the chance to own that split-window if I ever had the scratch. And I'd love every minute I spent behind its wheel.
A very happy holidays from me to everyone here on Lansing Heritage.
-hsosdrum :cheers:
JeffW
12-20-2016, 02:00 PM
+1, BMWCCA! I'm sure a 2017 Corvette is a way better car than a '63 Stingray, but you bet I'd jump at the chance to own that split-window if I ever had the scratch.
I owned a '64 convertible. Looked incredible, drove like a log wagon - and had that quaint old feature known as the carburetor. Chicks loved it, insurance companies hated it, somebody else is hopefully enjoying the experience now.
Mr. Widget
12-20-2016, 06:56 PM
I love looking at vintage cars... and speakers too. I'd rather drive a newer vehicle and listen to modern speakers... at least most of the time.
I wonder if car enthusiast forums ever get sidetracked and start talking about audio gear? :D
Widget
BMWCCA
12-20-2016, 08:08 PM
I wonder if car enthusiast forums ever get sidetracked and start talking about audio gear? :DYes, but without as much knowledge and intelligence as what takes place here!
Which brings me to ask why is it easier for me to walk into an Aston Martin dealer and test-drive a Vanquish than to find a JBL dealer that will allow me to listen to a DD67000? I go to a BMW 7-series launch and there are tens-of-thousands of dollars worth of sound equipment on display and to listen to in support of the B&W option available in some new BMWs. Maybe Harman should simply display their stuff at high-line dealerships that use their sound systems in their cars?
We have H/K in plenty of new BMWs, and I think we recently learned that Harman engineers high-line automobile sound-systems that end up labeled as B&W, etc. Why not place a Levinson-JBL system in every BMW store? They'd get a damn-site better exposure of their high-line systems in the USA than they're getting now.
They can thank me for the idea later . . . with a pair of DD67000s!
Fitero
01-05-2017, 09:27 AM
In my own experience, my 4367s really underwhelmed me initially. After about 1 1/2 months even my wife, who has a tin-ear commented how the new speakers were "making more sounds that were distracting her from the TV dialog"! :lol_fit: I have them hooked to the TV system which gets more daily use than the stereo system. I am waiting on a part to finish assembling a new amplifier, at which time they will go into the stereo room to stay. They now appear to produce more low-level musical detail. I have grown to really like them. I had a pair of Hartley Concertmaster VI and Revel F208 before these.
I made 7" risers for them and have convinced myself that they helped the sound. I scrounged some scrap lumber from a work site and cobbled together what might be my most embarrassing construction yet. My wife calls them "Clogs" I was not sure if I was going to keep the 4367s, so I didn't waste any effort making them presentable. They will probably stay that way for life now. Please excuse the crappy phone pics.
Now that I want to keep them, I have begun obsessing about equalizing the bass as suggested by GT and others. I have no idea where to look though. I haven't had an equalizer since the Soundcraftsmen gear in the early 80's. I tried entering the driver data into the Linkwitz Transform worksheet, thinking that using one might be the ticket, but honestly, I don't know what the hell I'm doing.
Marchand Electronics WM8 Bassis seems to my in-educated eyes like a possibility.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Earl K
04-23-2017, 06:16 AM
"bump", ( for someone else ) .
LowPhreak
04-23-2017, 08:14 AM
Fitero - when the front baffle of a speaker is equal to or greater in sq. inch area than your TV screen, you know you're doing something right. :D That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
The LSRs are the poster-child for why you don't need low bass to enjoy music, ...
.
You must have borrowed that from a La Scala fan...:duel:;)
Ian Mackenzie
04-23-2017, 01:30 PM
http://www.audiovero.de/en/
youngho
04-26-2017, 05:33 PM
http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/jbl-4367-studio-monitor-loudspeaker-review/
Fitero
05-01-2017, 08:45 AM
I've been absent for awhile. Very interesting last few posts to the thread.
I'm afraid I suffer from a simpleton's fixation with large speakers. I'll no doubt reincarnate into a Japanese stereo nut, with home-made Goto speakers making up the whole wall of my 60 metre apartment some day.
I've since moved the speakers to a small 10' x 13' room where I can listen a lot louder. I had to cut the ends off my desk/table in able to shoe-horn the speakers in there. :D
That Audio Vero, Abacus Preamp is Exactly what I should have!!! That would allow me to consolidate and eliminate several external components and allow DSP correction at the same time. Excellent!
Thank you for the link!
Bredin
12-09-2017, 02:47 AM
I'm afraid I suffer from a simpleton's fixation with large speakers. I'll no doubt reincarnate into a Japanese stereo nut, with home-made Goto speakers making up the whole wall of my 60 metre apartment some day.
I've since moved the speakers to a small 10' x 13' room where I can listen a lot louder. I had to cut the ends off my desk/table in able to shoe-horn the speakers in there. :D
I'm the same as you. I'm really in love the "Japanese audiophile culture". My apartment is even smaller than yours at 37m^2, but my room is somewhat bigger 3,5mx5m. Seeing you using them in a smaller room then mine made me confident enough to pull the trigger, I was somewhat worried that they would totally overpower the room, but they seem to work quite well.
Here's a picture of my setup in my dark mancave in Sweden:
79284
79287
hsosdrum
12-11-2017, 02:02 PM
No matter how large your speakers, there's a simple cure for when they start to overpower your listening room: counter-clockwise rotation of the volume control.
Mr. Widget
12-11-2017, 07:49 PM
No matter how large your speakers, there's a simple cure for when they start to overpower your listening room: counter-clockwise rotation of the volume control.Really? It’s that easy? I’ll give it a try and get back to you. :D
Widget
Ian Mackenzie
12-11-2017, 07:57 PM
Might be a bit difficult to reduce the reverberation time without re building the room
DavidF
12-13-2017, 02:20 PM
No matter how large your speakers, there's a simple cure for when they start to overpower your listening room: counter-clockwise rotation of the volume control.
I think that counter rotation causes the volume to UP in Ian's part of world. Or maybe I am thinking of something else. :dont-know:
Ian Mackenzie
12-13-2017, 04:27 PM
Totally
Once l have the in ground pool done in Jan l am told l can have anything!
Well it might have to be the 4367s
Fitero
12-18-2017, 08:26 PM
I'm the same as you. I'm really in love the "Japanese audiophile culture". My apartment is even smaller than yours at 37m^2, but my room is somewhat bigger 3,5mx5m. Seeing you using them in a smaller room then mine made me confident enough to pull the trigger, I was somewhat worried that they would totally overpower the room, but they seem to work quite well.
Here's a picture of my setup in my dark mancave in Sweden:
79284
79287
Wow! I think your room looks great with the black 4367 stuffed in there!
I found that listening @ 3m is fine with them in my small room. I am very aware of the recording quality with these speakers. On so many recordings the speakers sound just "meh" but with good recordings they sound fantastic.
Fitero
01-13-2018, 11:48 AM
After selling my 4367s a couple of months ago, I was given a deal on a pair of Revel Salon 2 that I couldn't pass up, so I gave them a try.
As a friend said, " I can see why so many people like them". However, I think they are just pleasant. Sort of "the Sade of speakers". Maybe it's because I have Tinnitus and moderate hearing loss above 11K hertz, but I'm missing the snap and tonality compared to the 4367's. They don't get my feet tapping.
Anybody want a pair of one month old Revels? :banghead:
So, my buddy brought home a pair of M2's that are waiting for me in his garage once I get the Salons sold.
As I understand it, they "fix" the two areas that I found lacking in the 4367's; mainly limited bass extension and accentuated treble output @ 11-12khz. I'm looking forward to the merry go round of processor, amplifier, DSP swapping. I enjoy that part of the hobby a lot.
hlaari
01-13-2018, 05:33 PM
how about K2-S9900?
there is a new pair for sale on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-Synthesis-K2-S9900-Zebra-wood-BRAND-NEW-IN-BOX-NEVER-USED-Full-Warranty/332101065633?hash=item4d52c41ba1:g:e4gAAOSwopRYhoo u
Fitero
01-13-2018, 06:05 PM
Hi Hlaari,
I hear the K2's quite often at my friend's house, and I prefer the harder hitting bass output of the driver in the 4367. As you know, the M2 has essentially the same bass driver as the 4367, so I am betting that it hit's as hard, but goes deeper.
I've wanted the M2's for a few years now, so once I get rid of the Salons, they are next.
Ian Mackenzie
01-17-2018, 05:21 AM
I read this thread this afternoon and talked myself out of buying a pair of 4367s half way through then got to the end and talked myself back into buy them. Amusing.
Listening is a deeply personal experience. It’s entirely up to the individual.
Unfortunately we all tend listen with our eyes. That’s one useful disclosure about Harman’s research that makes sense.
Test curves, in particular magazine curves are terrible PR.
Thinking about similar systems the 4338 was nice. l really liked that system so it will be interesting to listen to the 4367.
I have heard the 4365 but only at a show. People were sitting on the floor worshipping it like it was a God FFS.
They have a pair over the river.
edgewound
01-17-2018, 02:32 PM
I read this thread this afternoon and talked myself out of buying a pair of 4367s half way through then got to the end and talked myself back into buy them. Amusing.
Listening is a deeply personal experience. It’s entirely up to the individual.
Unfortunately we all tend listen with our eyes. That’s one useful disclosure about Harman’s research that makes sense.
Test curves, in particular magazine curves are terrible PR.
Thinking about similar systems the 4338 was nice. l really liked that system so it will be interesting to listen to the 4367.
I have heard the 4365 but only at a show. People were sitting on the floor worshipping it like it was a God FFS.
They have a pair over the river.
I listened to the 4367 at CES along with the new L100 Classic.
I preferred the midrange voicing, soundstage and imaging of the L100 Classic over the 4367. I preferred the effortless bass response of the 4367.
The midrange...voices, sax, piano, guitar...retreated into the box with the 4376, whereas with the L100 Classic it was nicely set in front of the speakers in the room. The high end was actually nicer with the 4367, more detailed and present. The build quality on the L100 Classic is suspect with the front baffle vinyl covering peeling off the left demo speaker. The quadrex grille foam will not fit the original L100 as the new model is significantly larger. Not worth $4,000.00/pair. It's not built in the US with US craftsmen, so you can throw the inflation calculator out the window. The build quality of the 4367 is excellent as it should be for $15,000.00/pair, but the walnut veneer is nowhere close to the old days. It's looks are "non-organic. Same with the L100 Classic. The Logo plate/L-Pad mount on the L100 Classic is also pretty cheesy looking.
Down the hall at ELAC with Andrew Jones, I heard a phenomenal new series named ARGO. A super compact, actively triamped, diminutive system that puts anything to shame Harman currently offers, all for a price of $2,000.00/pair coming mid-year.
Ian Mackenzie
01-17-2018, 03:28 PM
World beaters have never been any good for brand loyalty.
It would be interesting to compare the 9900 to the 4367
Has anyone done that?
The retailer l plan to see has both on the floor.
martin_wu99
01-17-2018, 10:57 PM
World beaters have never been any good for brand loyalty.
It would be interesting to compare the 9900 to the 4367
Has anyone done that?
The retailer l plan to see has both on the floor.
Good idea,i am curious to konw the results:applaud:
I think 4367 is better than 4365, especially on bass:D
ivica
01-18-2018, 11:22 AM
......
I think 4367 is better than 4365, especially on bass:D
Is it, Martin ?????
Ivica
Titanium Dome
01-18-2018, 02:40 PM
World beaters have never been any good for brand loyalty.
It would be interesting to compare the 9900 to the 4367
Has anyone done that?
The retailer l plan to see has both on the floor.
Hey Ian, that would be a great experience! Looking forward to your comments... :)
Ian Mackenzie
01-18-2018, 03:56 PM
I called and they don’t have them at the moment.
If the circumstances were more appropriate l’d just go for a trip to Tokyo and do it properly... a whole floor of JBL.
Might do that in May. Anyone interested? Turn up in a Limo like the President of Toyota...Lol
They probably give you a Mr JBL Hat as a vip.
(I saw a pic of someone with a Mr JBL hat at the 66000 launch and made the crack it was Giskard. Unfortunately it that not well received)
Very cheap air fares at the moment .
A great place to empty your bank account
martin_wu99
01-19-2018, 02:47 AM
Is it, Martin ?????
Ivica
Sure things:D
Fitero
01-19-2018, 09:42 AM
It would be interesting to compare the 9900 to the 4367
.
Do you mean these?; http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?39821-JBL-K2-S9900-vs-JBL-4367
Kalle
01-19-2018, 10:23 AM
Do you mean these?; http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?39821-JBL-K2-S9900-vs-JBL-4367
Most interesting I think is to hear Fitero comparing 4367, K2 etc the M2.
I got the M2`s (DIY) and is amazed of the snap, how hard hitting bass they have and also how deep they play. For me the search is over:bouncy: Maybe just a second pair with BE-drivers....:blink:
//Kalle
Ian Mackenzie
01-19-2018, 12:58 PM
Thanks for the link
It’s one of those things you have to do.
Bredin
01-20-2018, 03:04 AM
I listened to the 4367 at CES along with the new L100 Classic.
I preferred the midrange voicing, soundstage and imaging of the L100 Classic over the 4367. I preferred the effortless bass response of the 4367.
The midrange...voices, sax, piano, guitar...retreated into the box with the 4376, whereas with the L100 Classic it was nicely set in front of the speakers in the room. The high end was actually nicer with the 4367, more detailed and present. The build quality on the L100 Classic is suspect with the front baffle vinyl covering peeling off the left demo speaker. The quadrex grille foam will not fit the original L100 as the new model is significantly larger. Not worth $4,000.00/pair. It's not built in the US with US craftsmen, so you can throw the inflation calculator out the window. The build quality of the 4367 is excellent as it should be for $15,000.00/pair, but the walnut veneer is nowhere close to the old days. It's looks are "non-organic. Same with the L100 Classic. The Logo plate/L-Pad mount on the L100 Classic is also pretty cheesy looking.
Down the hall at ELAC with Andrew Jones, I heard a phenomenal new series named ARGO. A super compact, actively triamped, diminutive system that puts anything to shame Harman currently offers, all for a price of $2,000.00/pair coming mid-year.
What you hear in shows does not mean shit in the real world. There are so many circumstances on a show that a fantastic system can sound bad. Of the systems I've heard at shows and stores >90% were disappointments, even my previous speaker that I liked at home(KEF R900), sounded terrible the three times I've heard them in the wild. Also, if anything is bad about the 4367 it's the finish and build quality. My grills aren't even straight, both are flush with the waveguide on the right side and then sacks down on the left. The "veneer" looks like something I would expect from a pair of $400 Wharfedales.
Bredin
01-20-2018, 03:12 AM
After selling my 4367s a couple of months ago, I was given a deal on a pair of Revel Salon 2 that I couldn't pass up, so I gave them a try.
As a friend said, " I can see why so many people like them". However, I think they are just pleasant. Sort of "the Sade of speakers". Maybe it's because I have Tinnitus and moderate hearing loss above 11K hertz, but I'm missing the snap and tonality compared to the 4367's. They don't get my feet tapping.
Anybody want a pair of one month old Revels? :banghead:
WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!?
I've heard some people preferring the Salon 2 over the 4367. But with the smaller woofers, lower sensitivity and impedance I'm like: No thanks. I don't care if they are better sounding, I'm never going back to heavy driven speakers with cute tiny woofers :).
Ian Mackenzie
01-20-2018, 05:12 AM
Your comments on the finish are disappointing.
Will need to see it myself but not real veneer at this price point sucks.
Might need to go the diy route. I can finish enclosures with solid American walnut or oak panels 1.5 inches thick souced locally.
Bredin
01-20-2018, 10:05 AM
Your comments on the finish are disappointing.
Will need to see it myself but not real veneer at this price point sucks.
Might need to go the diy route. I can finish enclosures with solid American walnut or oak panels 1.5 inches thick souced locally.
If build quality and finish matters so much for you, maybe you should look on other speakers. Speakers like the KEF Reference 5 will give you way better finish, a more well built and dead enclosure and more exclusive materials. 4367s cabin is made 100% out of 1" MDF except for the baffle that's made out of 1,5". It's not the stiffest or deadest cabin I've encountered, a knocking test will prove that. Even with those shortcomings I'm 100% satisfied with that I bought them and not any other speaker. Seems like I'm not the only one in Sweden being satisfied as they increased the price with 10% from 2018.....
Tried taking a photo of the grills fitment, I can see it on over 2meters distance from my sofa.
79779
Also done some clean up some cables and re-arranged my power cables so just the amplifier and dac are connected to my power filter. Those of you who are sharp eyed can see the Sonic Design damping feets under the speakers. They are VERY common here in Sweden but I think I've never seen them in any other setup from any other country. I can really recommend them for those of you who does not believe in or want to use spikes. They are $30 for a set of 8 here.
79780
Fitero
01-20-2018, 10:20 AM
WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!?
Well....cause I'm a dope for one. :o: I had to experiment though. Sometimes I make a favorable change and other times I screw the pooch and have to pay for my mistakes.
In my view, the Salons aren't better sounding if the basis for judging sound is the realistic reproduction of tonality and dynamics. No instruments sound more realistic on the Revels compared to the 4367 to my ears.
In a recent comparison between the Salon 2 and the M2 about 80% of the people preferred the Revels. I wonder if that also correlates to the percentage of people who prefer traditional speakers over CD, horn speakers?
It’s one of those things you have to do.
If the Salons sell quickly and my desperation to get the M2's home doesn't overpower me, I would like to unbox them at my buddy's place and compare them to his K2's with both the Mark Levinson amps and his Crown/JBL amps. I think many of us would find the decidedly unscientific comparison interesting.
Harman were going through production changes when I bought my 4367, transferring manufacturing to a new plant. I refused several pair of them until I was sent a perfect pair. Harman really stepped up and showed professionalism during the ordeal.
I don't like composite veneers, but if at least the workmanship is first rate they are ok looking. I would have preferred real Walnut veneer though.
Mr. Widget
01-20-2018, 12:13 PM
I don't like composite veneers, but if at least the workmanship is first rate they are ok looking. I would have preferred real Walnut veneer though.Ditto!
I’m disappointed that other than the Everest’s and the new retro L100s all of the current JBLs are not as nicely finished as many speakers from other manufacturers. Pretty disappointing.
Widget
edgewound
01-20-2018, 01:26 PM
What you hear in shows does not mean shit in the real world. There are so many circumstances on a show that a fantastic system can sound bad. Of the systems I've heard at shows and stores >90% were disappointments, even my previous speaker that I liked at home(KEF R900), sounded terrible the three times I've heard them in the wild. Also, if anything is bad about the 4367 it's the finish and build quality. My grills aren't even straight, both are flush with the waveguide on the right side and then sacks down on the left. The "veneer" looks like something I would expect from a pair of $400 Wharfedales.
The listening conditions at the CES in the Venetian Suites are better than most home listening environments. I think i'm pretty qualified to make a distinction of my preference between two different models of JBL speakers. I'm sorry your $15,000 speakers have substandard build quality. That's even unacceptable for a pair of $400 Wharfdales.
The difference between the sound of the M2 complete system and the "consumer" version 4367 is huge...and at a cost difference of about $10K. My gripe is calling a speaker a "Studio Monitor" when it does not actually behave like a studio monitor because it has been tamed for the consumer market. If given the choice to mix down a recording session on these two models, and your objective is accuracy in the critical midrange band of frequencies, the smaller, less expensive tribute L100 would most likely win. To be perfectly honest, both of the models are far overpriced. JBL can no longer afford to rest on the laurels of previous designs by Greg Timbers. They need to honest about the competition they're facing. It's great that they're starting to try and compete again, but you can't do it by marketing alone. The product must live up to the hype.
edgewound
01-20-2018, 01:36 PM
Your comments on the finish are disappointing.
Will need to see it myself but not real veneer at this price point sucks.
Might need to go the diy route. I can finish enclosures with solid American walnut or oak panels 1.5 inches thick souced locally.
Ian...take a look and listen. I was going to suggest you consider the DIY route since you have the skills. My feeling is that you'd be disappointed by the cost of the 4367 and would probably end up tuning the crossover to your liking.
It's far more satisfying to create a system that sounds stellar for thousands less, but you already know that.
If having a factory built JBL with logo is an investment choice, I don't know how to advise you on that, other than a negative ROI...or pick them up used from someone else that was disappointed with what they got for the money.
Or...wait and listen to the new ELAC Argo and see what can be had for $2,000. It probably won't do the sheer SPL of the big JBL but if accuracy is any qualifier, you won't find a better value.
Ian Mackenzie
01-20-2018, 02:18 PM
Your right..when I can find one to hear.
The problem could end up being cosmetic.
The room has a design focus with timber finishes and the centre piece is a walnut console with real veneer.
I need to have a good look at it.
Ian Mackenzie
01-20-2018, 02:19 PM
Ditto!
I’m disappointed that other than the Everest’s and the new retro L100s all of the current JBLs are not as nicely finished as many speakers from other manufacturers. Pretty disappointing.
Widget
Totally
hsosdrum
01-24-2018, 03:30 PM
In a recent comparison between the Salon 2 and the M2 about 80% of the people preferred the Revels. I wonder if that also correlates to the percentage of people who prefer traditional speakers over CD, horn speakers?
A properly set up, properly tuned pair of M2s will ruthlessly reveal even the most miniscule problems with source material and any downstream components. I am quite sure that 80% of listeners — even those who call themselves "audiophiles" — have rarely, if ever, heard this degree of honesty from a reproducing transducer system. I'm not the least bit surprised that the overwhelming majority of the listeners in the above comparison preferred the Salon 2: it delivers what they are used to hearing. The trouble is, they are used to hearing speakers that sound more like speakers and less like the actual sound that's encoded into the source material. The M2 is a paradigm change from this.
Of course, YMMV, but this is the mileage the M2 delivers to me.
edgewound
01-24-2018, 06:23 PM
A properly set up, properly tuned pair of M2s will ruthlessly reveal even the most miniscule problems with source material and any downstream components. I am quite sure that 80% of listeners — even those who call themselves "audiophiles" — have rarely, if ever, heard this degree of honesty from a reproducing transducer system. I'm not the least bit surprised that the overwhelming majority of the listeners in the above comparison preferred the Salon 2: it delivers what they are used to hearing. The trouble is, they are used to hearing speakers that sound more like speakers and less like the actual sound that's encoded into the source material. The M2 is a paradigm change from this.
Of course, YMMV, but this is the mileage the M2 delivers to me.
Very much why I didn't particularly care for the 4367. Too much detail was pushed back in the mix. The sound was very big, but rather very bland.
Mr. Widget
01-24-2018, 08:44 PM
A properly set up, properly tuned pair of M2s will ruthlessly reveal even the most miniscule problems with source material and any downstream components. I am quite sure that 80% of listeners — even those who call themselves "audiophiles" — have rarely, if ever, heard this degree of honesty from a reproducing transducer system. I'm not the least bit surprised that the overwhelming majority of the listeners in the above comparison preferred the Salon 2: it delivers what they are used to hearing. The trouble is, they are used to hearing speakers that sound more like speakers and less like the actual sound that's encoded into the source material. The M2 is a paradigm change from this.
Of course, YMMV, but this is the mileage the M2 delivers to me.I agree that the M2s are exceptional speakers. Ruthless? I wouldn’t describe them that way, but I would say they are detailed and they do image well and with the DSP room tuning and system correction they provide a window into music that many others can’t match. I have heard Salon2s and M2s in the same room during extensive listening sessions and I preferred the M2s. That said, the listening sessions were separated by a pretty long time between them.
As much as I respect the M2 monitors I still prefer my E2s.
Widget
Mannermusic
01-25-2018, 07:25 AM
I agree that the M2s are exceptional speakers. Ruthless? I wouldn’t describe them that way, but I would say they are detailed and they do image well and with the DSP room tuning and system correction they provide a window into music that many others can’t match. I have heard Salon2s and M2s in the same room during extensive listening sessions and I preferred the M2s. That said, the listening sessions were separated by a pretty long time between them.
As much as I respect the M2 monitors I still prefer my E2s.
Widget
Not surprised - an engineering tool is not necessarily the most satisfying home hi fi system. Two different purposes / design criteria.
jblnut
01-25-2018, 08:41 AM
I spent some time with a pair of Salon2's and they have shaken my JBL faith to the core. I think these are "the ones" I will aspire to over the next few years. They simply do everything I like about the 250Ti, only better. Much better.
I will seek out an audition of 4365/4367/M2 before I decide for certain, but I get all of the "engineering tool" comments here. If we walked about wearing magnifying glasses, our houses would never seem clean. I'm not sure I want to micro examine every thing I listen to, as that leads to analysis paralysis - and less musical enjoyment.
jblnut
Ian Mackenzie
01-25-2018, 11:58 AM
“ If we walked about wearing magnifying glasses, our houses would never seem clean.”
That’s why we chose a timber floor and not tiles in the new house!
You guys are funny. It’s like watching a bucket of paint been thrown over a new car each time someone walks past because some (one) gives it a bad wrap. Prior to Edgewounds comment there was none of this sentiment
ivica
01-25-2018, 12:38 PM
I agree that the M2s are exceptional speakers. ......
As much as I respect the M2 monitors I still prefer my E2s.
Widget
Hi Widget,
Interesting conclusion. It would be interesting the comparison with E2 that are active EQ too, to be fair comparison.
regards
ivica
Titanium Dome
01-25-2018, 07:47 PM
I spent some time with a pair of Salon2's and they have shaken my JBL faith to the core. I think these are "the ones" I will aspire to over the next few years. They simply do everything I like about the 250Ti, only better. Much better.
I will seek out an audition of 4365/4367/M2 before I decide for certain, but I get all of the "engineering tool" comments here. If we walked about wearing magnifying glasses, our houses would never seem clean. I'm not sure I want to micro examine every thing I listen to, as that leads to analysis paralysis - and less musical enjoyment.
jblnut
Rumors out of Samsung/Harman/Northridge are of new cabinet finishes and a price increase for all Ultima2 Salons. At least in the short term this might also raise the used market prices. Since the Ultima2 intro a decade ago, prices have held steady, so it's no surprise a price adjustment needs to be made. If you buy them new now and finance them, it still might be cheaper than waiting until you have the $$$.
From my moniker, it's clear I'm a fan of Ti drivers, especially the inverted dome type, and the Ultima2 Salons have them in spades, plus a nice Be on top. You can hardly go wrong with them. Yet, I've repeatedly avoided getting them.
Of course, you know the Dome loves a deal! I recently passed on a pair of Salons NIB for less than half of retail, because a) I'm still in love with the K2 S9900s which I passed up the Salons for several years back, and b) an even crazier deal popped up for some speakers I wanted more. (Salons are gone, so don't ask.)
But of course, someday I'm gonna get those Salons! (Insert your favorite off-color French-Canadian voyager joke here.)
edgewound
01-25-2018, 11:44 PM
I spent some time with a pair of Salon2's and they have shaken my JBL faith to the core. I think these are "the ones" I will aspire to over the next few years. They simply do everything I like about the 250Ti, only better. Much better.
I will seek out an audition of 4365/4367/M2 before I decide for certain, but I get all of the "engineering tool" comments here. If we walked about wearing magnifying glasses, our houses would never seem clean. I'm not sure I want to micro examine every thing I listen to, as that leads to analysis paralysis - and less musical enjoyment.
jblnut
I saw a pair of TAD Reference One...as new...for less than half price on AudioGon the other day. Under $35K. They blow away anything by Revel. Just being honest.
jblnut
01-29-2018, 08:03 AM
Salon2's are at 10k now (used) ...once kids are through college in 6 years I fully expect to snag a pair for $5k or so. There's always an audiophile in a hurry somewhere with an irritated wife and huge speakers that need to move out. Mr Dome thinks prices will be higher but I don't share that sentiment. Very, very few speakers are on an upward trend.
Will check back in 6 years once I have completed the deal :-).
TAD for $35k ? Nice but too many other things with motors (gasoline) I'd buy at that price. And my room doesn't warrant commitment at that level either. You'd really want a purpose built space to get all that those could offer.
jblnut
DallasJustice
01-29-2018, 10:30 AM
Hello! I hope it’s okay to post here. It’s been a while.
I plan to convert my 4367 pair into a four driver active setup using digital crossovers.
I posted some pictures and video over here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-4367-inside-photos-video.2293/
I would love feedback from you folks. I am experienced with digital crossovers. I currently use software called Audiolense. This is my plan:
1. Measure my 4367 speaker HF and LF separated out so I can see where the crossover point should be and get a good idea of the slope.
2. Remove 2 speaker terminals so that there’s two holes through which I can feed two cables per speaker.
3. Disconnect the D2 compression driver from the XO board. Connect a speaker cable with 1/4” slide on spade female connectors. Connect the cable to my AHB2 amp. Set AHB2 amp to lowest output gain.
4. Disconnect midwoofer from XO board. Connect bare wire speaker cable to midwoofer. Connect that cable to 2nd AHB2 amp which will be set to a higher gain.
I use a Lynx Hilo so routing and channel count isn’t an issue. I’m familiar with the Hilo mixer and know how to use output mix routing page on the Hilo.
5. Define a custom pink noise in REW around the crossover region. Play the tone and level match the D2 and midwoofer using analog gain setting or analog output voltage settings on the DAC.
6. Setup crossover and slope in Audiolense which closely matches the crossover and slopes previously measured using REW.
7. Setup routing and record log sweeps in Audiolense.
8. I will use a preferred target curve.
9. Perform loopback measurements using REW loopback into Jriver through convolver.
My setup also also includes a couple of subs. But I want to leave them out of the discussion for now. I currently cross my 4367 speakers over to mono subs around 90hz. So I’ll keep that the same since I know it works well.
Thank you.
Michael.
Robh3606
01-29-2018, 03:02 PM
Why don't you start a new thread so this project doesn't get lost. You can keep it where it is if you want your call,
Rob:)
Ian Mackenzie
01-29-2018, 04:45 PM
Salon2's are at 10k now (used) ...once kids are through college in 6 years I fully expect to snag a pair for $5k or so. There's always an audiophile in a hurry somewhere with an irritated wife and huge speakers that need to move out. Mr Dome thinks prices will be higher but I don't share that sentiment. Very, very few speakers are on an upward trend.
Will check back in 6 years once I have completed the deal :-).
TAD for $35k ? Nice but too many other things with motors (gasoline) I'd buy at that price. And my room doesn't warrant commitment at that level either. You'd really want a purpose built space to get all that those could offer.
jblnut
I thought buying your dream loudspeakers was an
emotional retail decision.
I recall the scenario with Dome’s decision to buy the S9900 over the Revel at a show in SF. I am fairly certain it was an emotional decision (not rational).
You just do it and sort out the consequences later!
BTW. Our new pool will be handed over on Saturday so l will start talking up my audio aspirations.
My sister in law recently bought a Maserati Levante SUV just because she wanted everyone to know she owned one.
Family rivalry 101. So l doubt will get a knock back.
https://www.maserati.com/maserati/au/en/models/levante?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3r_hvqz-2AIVUIyPCh3W2QaJEAAYASADEgIvz_D_BwE
Hello! I hope it’s okay to post here. It’s been a while.
I plan to convert my 4367 pair into a four driver active setup using digital crossovers.
I posted some pictures and video over here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-4367-inside-photos-video.2293/
I would love feedback from you folks. I am experienced with digital crossovers. I currently use software called Audiolense. This is my plan:
1. Measure my 4367 speaker HF and LF separated out so I can see where the crossover point should be and get a good idea of the slope.
2. Remove 2 speaker terminals so that there’s two holes through which I can feed two cables per speaker.
3. Disconnect the D2 compression driver from the XO board. Connect a speaker cable with 1/4” slide on spade female connectors. Connect the cable to my AHB2 amp. Set AHB2 amp to lowest output gain.
4. Disconnect midwoofer from XO board. Connect bare wire speaker cable to midwoofer. Connect that cable to 2nd AHB2 amp which will be set to a higher gain.
I use a Lynx Hilo so routing and channel count isn’t an issue. I’m familiar with the Hilo mixer and know how to use output mix routing page on the Hilo.
5. Define a custom pink noise in REW around the crossover region. Play the tone and level match the D2 and midwoofer using analog gain setting or analog output voltage settings on the DAC.
6. Setup crossover and slope in Audiolense which closely matches the crossover and slopes previously measured using REW.
7. Setup routing and record log sweeps in Audiolense.
8. I will use a preferred target curve.
9. Perform loopback measurements using REW loopback into Jriver through convolver.
My setup also also includes a couple of subs. But I want to leave them out of the discussion for now. I currently cross my 4367 speakers over to mono subs around 90hz. So I’ll keep that the same since I know it works well.
Thank you.
Michael.
Hello Michael, and welcome to the forum.
Benchmark AHB2 amps and Lynx Hilo converters, this is a dream setup :bouncy:
jblnut
01-30-2018, 07:18 AM
I thought buying your dream loudspeakers was an
emotional retail decision.
I recall the scenario with Dome’s decision to buy the S9900 over the Revel at a show in SF. I am fairly certain it was an emotional decision (not rational).
You just do it and sort out the consequences later!
BTW. Our new pool will be handed over on Saturday so l will start talking up my audio aspirations.
My sister in law recently bought a Maserati Levante SUV just because she wanted everyone to know she owned one.
Family rivalry 101. So l doubt will get a knock back.
https://www.maserati.com/maserati/au/en/models/levante?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3r_hvqz-2AIVUIyPCh3W2QaJEAAYASADEgIvz_D_BwE
Not married eh ? No one who is married just up and buys $10k speakers just to fulfill a "dream" (lest it turn into a nightmare) :-). I have a very understanding wife, but there are limits. One has to approach giant expensive speakers quite carefully, lest one get to sleep in the yard with them.
I predict you will win the family rivalry and have the last laugh though. I have a friend who works at a dealer that sells several luxury brands, including Maserati. Quality...is not high with that brand.
jblnut
1audiohack
01-30-2018, 08:10 AM
Not married eh ? No one who is married just up and buys $10k speakers just to fulfill a "dream"...jblnut
How sure about that are you? ;)
I can’t say that.
Barry.
jblnut
01-30-2018, 08:50 AM
How sure about that are you? ;)
I can’t say that.
Barry.
Hats off to you sir :-)
jblnut
DallasJustice
01-30-2018, 09:46 AM
Hello Michael, and welcome to the forum.
Benchmark AHB2 amps and Lynx Hilo converters, this is a dream setup :bouncy:
Thank you!
I read the link in your signature line about the M2. I noticed that the M2 has a passive network inside of it which attenuates the D2 driver by 9db. This makes sense to me because the horn is so much more sensitive than the midwoofer. I believe the 4367 uses the same D2 compression driver and the midwoofer is very similar (certainly not more sensitive than the one in the M2). Other than a 9db pad, what does this passive network do inside the M2?
Ian Mackenzie
01-30-2018, 12:52 PM
“Quote Originally Posted by jblnut View Post
Not married eh ? No one who is married just up and buys $10k speakers just to fulfill a "dream"...jblnut”
How sure about that are you? ;)
I can’t say that.
Barry.
My wife is also very understanding.
Having just completed a new home my initial thought was the 4367s would look like a rounding figure.
But there are other family priorities like a new pool, landscaping and an overseas holiday we just agreed on the other day.
Originally l was going to build these as a diy project because she loved them. l have the components sitting around
https://oswaldsmillaudio.com/monarch
Might be slightly large.
I’m sitting on the 4367s for the moment.
Thank you!
I read the link in your signature line about the M2. I noticed that the M2 has a passive network inside of it which attenuates the D2 driver by 9db. This makes sense to me because the horn is so much more sensitive than the midwoofer. I believe the 4367 uses the same D2 compression driver and the midwoofer is very similar (certainly not more sensitive than the one in the M2). Other than a 9db pad, what does this passive network do inside the M2?
The passive network act as a 9dB pad and 6dB/oct high pass filter at 1kHz.
The 6dB/oct filter would not be possible without the pad, as it does flatten the impedance.
Not sure you need either of them with your DACs and amps, as you will not get any residual noise if you properly match levels.
Adding a protection cap might prove useful though, and if you target something like 200Hz impedance will be flat enough.
DallasJustice
01-30-2018, 06:00 PM
The passive network act as a 9dB pad and 6dB/oct high pass filter at 1kHz.
The 6dB/oct filter would not be possible without the pad, as it does flatten the impedance.
Not sure you need either of them with your DACs and amps, as you will not get any residual noise if you properly match levels.
Adding a protection cap might prove useful though, and if you target something like 200Hz impedance will be flat enough.
Thanks. I’m getting worried I’m going to damage the D2 without a protection circuit. I’m beginning to think I’d be better finding a pair of M2. I’m pretty sure I could make them sound great using Audiolense crossover and filters. There seems to be many folks here who have had success doing it with rephase which is basically the same thing as Audiolense. If I felt competent to build my own protection circuit, I’d use the 4367 in an active set up. But I don’t think that’s something I want to undertake.
I really appreciate all of the helpful technical details you provide. It may have stopped me from doing something stupid. :-)
I’m investigating ways of getting a pair of M2.
Titanium Dome
01-30-2018, 06:11 PM
This is an entertaining off topic digression, but I must comment. I had my original pair of L100s before I got married. After getting married, bringing anything into the house was a hassle far worse than necessary. When, after almost two decades of marriage I finally worked up the courage to buy a pair of new L7s, the outcry was so great and the requisite reverse compensation so unreasonable (new car, new kitchen, new washer/dryer) that I never made that mistake again.
I fixed that problem after 28 years, and now have 17 years with my girlfriend. Performance Series 7.1, okay! Synthesis One Array, okay! L250 pair, okay! 240Ti pair, okay! SVA1800/2100s 5.1, okay! 4430/B380 pair, okay!, E50 pair, okay! S2600s, okay! XPL200A pair, okay! K2 S9900 pair, okay! Timbers Arrays 4.0, okay! Most recent acquisition(s), hiding in the garage, but, eventually, okay!
Ian's right. The K2 S9900 was a completely emotional decision. I read all the reviews and the white paper, then talked to the creator, but hearing was the clincher. I love music, and I love loudspeakers that deliver music that makes me very, very happy. "Like I'm there." "Lifted the veil." "Scales fell from my ears." "The musicians are in my room." Like that, but not "As the musician/producer/recordist/mixer intended" because NO ONE knows that except the people involved, and even then... not so much.
And of course, I must shout out to Mr. Widget for both providing the demo and the end product. :applaud:
And, yes, I miss my little Maserati TC by Chrysler, but the reliability and cost of the Maserati parts, aarrrgh! :banghead:
I thought buying your dream loudspeakers was an
emotional retail decision.
I recall the scenario with Dome’s decision to buy the S9900 over the Revel at a show in SF. I am fairly certain it was an emotional decision (not rational).
You just do it and sort out the consequences later!
BTW. Our new pool will be handed over on Saturday so l will start talking up my audio aspirations.
My sister in law recently bought a Maserati Levante SUV just because she wanted everyone to know she owned one.
Family rivalry 101. So l doubt will get a knock back.
https://www.maserati.com/maserati/au/en/models/levante?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3r_hvqz-2AIVUIyPCh3W2QaJEAAYASADEgIvz_D_BwE
Not married eh ? No one who is married just up and buys $10k speakers just to fulfill a "dream" (lest it turn into a nightmare) :-). I have a very understanding wife, but there are limits. One has to approach giant expensive speakers quite carefully, lest one get to sleep in the yard with them.
I predict you will win the family rivalry and have the last laugh though. I have a friend who works at a dealer that sells several luxury brands, including Maserati. Quality...is not high with that brand.
jblnut
How sure about that are you? ;)
I can’t say that.
Barry.
Hats off to you sir :-)
jblnut
“Quote Originally Posted by jblnut View Post
Not married eh ? No one who is married just up and buys $10k speakers just to fulfill a "dream"...jblnut”
My wife is also very understanding.
Having just completed a new home my initial thought was the 4367s would look like a rounding figure.
But there are other family priorities like a new pool, landscaping and an overseas holiday we just agreed on the other day.
Originally l was going to build these as a diy project because she loved them. l have the components sitting around
https://oswaldsmillaudio.com/monarch
Might be slightly large.
I’m sitting on the 4367s for the moment.
Ian Mackenzie
01-30-2018, 08:25 PM
Hi Dome,
It’s the best way to be happy.
How about a group shot of your Jbl collection as your avatar?
After some political correctness l got a ride in the Maserati SUV on Christmas Day.. around the block
Not bad for a twin turbo 6 but new like $200k?? I would have bought a Lexus and the 67000’s but what can you say.
Once the new pool is finished l will post details in the neutral zone.
Mr. Widget
01-30-2018, 11:42 PM
I’m investigating ways of getting a pair of M2.I wouldn't get too worked up over the protection circuit... there are several ways to easily accomplish it, but realistically it seems going the M2 route makes far more sense. Less hassle and likely a better performer as it was purpose built to do exactly what you want to do.
Widget
DES-1
01-31-2018, 05:52 AM
Thanks. I’m getting worried I’m going to damage the D2 without a protection circuit.
Then just buy them here, last price point I knew of was $175 ea. If you have basic skills you can make a pair for about a tenth of that:
http://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-m2-crossover-5030032/
Use pos's update schematic found in appendix 3 of his great M2 crossover doc:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bzJyui75ZG_-wjV95dqKSbFs1Xh87bk2qlc-qS7Kk_Y/edit?%201%20down%20vote%20accepted%20%20%20&rm=minimal
Bredin
02-02-2018, 03:04 PM
2. Remove 2 speaker terminals so that there’s two holes through which I can feed two cables per speaker.
Why not just connecting the drivers directly to the terminals? Should be plenty of access to route your own internal cabling with the woofers removed.
DallasJustice
02-02-2018, 03:22 PM
Why not just connecting the drivers directly to the terminals? Should be plenty of access to route your own internal cabling with the woofers removed.
I sold the 4367. I’m going to pick up a pair of M2 tomorrow. I took the easy way out. :-)
1audiohack
02-02-2018, 07:06 PM
Sweet!
Please share!
Barry.
Bredin
02-03-2018, 02:51 AM
I sold the 4367. I’m going to pick up a pair of M2 tomorrow. I took the easy way out. :-)
Sounds boring but smart.
I saw on another forum that you were using the Luxman m700-u, and that you were hinting about testing the m900-u. Did you ever test the m900-u? From what I understand you are powering your system with bridged Benchmark AHB2s right now. What do you think about them? I've been thinking a lot about the AHB2s and recently the m900-u.
Other amps I'm considering: McIntosh MC301/MC452, Bryston 4b3/7b3/14b3 and Accuphase A-47/A-70 and P-7300. I have no real chance of testing any of them at home, so I have to trust my instincts. The closest dealer that I know of that stocks McIntosh and Bryston is located 250miles away, in the same city as the ONLY Benchmark dealer, and I don't know any who stocks high-end Luxmans or Accuphases :banghead:.
The "gripes" I have with the m900-u is that it feels wrong spending 10 times the money as my current amp and getting less power, they seem to perform better with RCA than XLR according to Soundstages measurements, the 280watt idle consumption maybe turn my 17m2 room into a sauna and Accuphase looks a lot better on paper.
DallasJustice
02-03-2018, 05:59 AM
Sounds boring but smart.
I saw on another forum that you were using the Luxman m700-u, and that you were hinting about testing the m900-u. Did you ever test the m900-u? From what I understand you are powering your system with bridged Benchmark AHB2s right now. What do you think about them? I've been thinking a lot about the AHB2s and recently the m900-u.
Other amps I'm considering: McIntosh MC301/MC452, Bryston 4b3/7b3/14b3 and Accuphase A-47/A-70 and P-7300. I have no real chance of testing any of them at home, so I have to trust my instincts. The closest dealer that I know of that stocks McIntosh and Bryston is located 250miles away, in the same city as the ONLY Benchmark dealer, and I don't know any who stocks high-end Luxmans or Accuphases :banghead:.
The "gripes" I have with the m900-u is that it feels wrong spending 10 times the money as my current amp and getting less power, they seem to perform better with RCA than XLR according to Soundstages measurements, the 280watt idle consumption maybe turn my 17m2 room into a sauna and Accuphase looks a lot better on paper.
I’m using 2 abb2 amps now and I’ll use them to power the M2. I’ll also use Audiolense crossovers and time alignment for the M2. So I hope it won’t be that boring. :)
I think the 900u is a gorgeous amp and sounds great with JBL speakers. I had no complaints. The reason I sold them is because I wanted to move to a fully active setup instead of partially active. If I were you, I’d try the ahb2 first. If you are happy with them, it’s very unlikely you will be happier with any of the other amps you mentioned; certainly your wallet wouldn’t happier.
Bredin
02-03-2018, 07:32 AM
I’m using 2 abb2 amps now and I’ll use them to power the M2. I’ll also use Audiolense crossovers and time alignment for the M2. So I hope it won’t be that boring. :)
I think the 900u is a gorgeous amp and sounds great with JBL speakers. I had no complaints. The reason I sold them is because I wanted to move to a fully active setup instead of partially active. If I were you, I’d try the ahb2 first. If you are happy with them, it’s very unlikely you will be happier with any of the other amps you mentioned; certainly your wallet wouldn’t happier.
I meant that it was boring that you took the "safe" way out :).
I'm confident that the ahb2 would be good enough sound-wise. The super-low distortion and noise surely makes it interesting, the somewhat "low" damping factor makes me a little skeptical, but it's probably negligible in the real world with all the cables and crossover components.
The thing is that I want a really big, hefty amplifier that's very solidly constructed. I really want that "high-end" feeling, that's the biggest reason why I want to swap my current Rotel RB1582 for something else. And even if it's stupid, but investing a lot of money into something makes if feel special.
Why did you go for Luxman instead of any of the competitors?
DallasJustice
02-03-2018, 07:50 AM
I meant that it was boring that you took the "safe" way out :).
I'm confident that the ahb2 would be good enough sound-wise. The super-low distortion and noise surely makes it interesting, the somewhat "low" damping factor makes me a little skeptical, but it's probably negligible in the real world with all the cables and crossover components.
The thing is that I want a really big, hefty amplifier that's very solidly constructed. I really want that "high-end" feeling, that's the biggest reason why I want to swap my current Rotel RB1582 for something else. And even if it's stupid, but investing a lot of money into something makes if feel special.
Why did you go for Luxman instead of any of the competitors?
I’ve owned more “high end” amps than the Luxman. I’ve owned Soulution, Krell 900e, Dartzeel and Mola Mola to name a few. I’m no longer a believe in the super expensive amps. I guess I’m sort of reformed. I doubt any of those luxury amps could outperform the benchmark amps. The only one that could be a real competitor would be Soulution 711. IMO, the ahb2 renders amplification a “solved problem” as I read in an honest review about it.
Bredin
02-03-2018, 08:49 AM
I’ve owned more “high end” amps than the Luxman. I’ve owned Soulution, Krell 900e, Dartzeel and Mola Mola to name a few. I’m no longer a believe in the super expensive amps. I guess I’m sort of reformed. I doubt any of those luxury amps could outperform the benchmark amps. The only one that could be a real competitor would be Soulution 711. IMO, the ahb2 renders amplification a “solved problem” as I read in an honest review about it.
My question was why you went with the Luxman, there must have been a reason.
I can understand how the abh2 "solved" the amplification problem as its distortion and noise is many times lower than many of the competitors.
It would be very interesting to test the Accuphase P-7300. It from what I can tell offers a more stable power delivery than the u900m, it has only 1dB worse signal/noise than the abh2 and offers >1000 damping factor. I've heard it's $32K in the USA, but "only" $23K here in Europe.
80012
DallasJustice
02-03-2018, 09:04 AM
My question was why you went with the Luxman, there must have been a reason.
I can understand how the abh2 "solved" the amplification problem as its distortion and noise is many times lower than many of the competitors.
It would be very interesting to test the Accuphase P-7300. It from what I can tell offers a more stable power delivery than the u900m, it has only 1dB worse signal/noise than the abh2 and offers >1000 damping factor. I've heard it's $32K in the USA, but "only" $23K here in Europe.
80012
I think Accuphase is even more beautiful than Luxman. But the price in US is dumb. I investigated getting an Accuphase amp and the pricing never made sense to me. If you could get that amp for a reasonable price, you’d be set. It would check both of your boxes for performance and aesthetics.
Fitero
02-03-2018, 11:38 AM
I'm curious to hear your impressions driving the M2's with the relatively low powered Benchmark amplifiers.
I will be moving my M2's into the apartment once the Salons are gone, and I have been agonizing over amplifier choices...
Apparently, the main engineers involved with the design of the M2 use the Crown DCI amps and consider the Itech and other more expensive amplifiers a waste of money. However, that might be callous engineer pragmatism.
As mentioned above, we often feel better about our gear if we extenuate ourselves and buy the most expensive audio jewelry that we can afford. It must be something to do with our human nature.
DallasJustice
02-03-2018, 11:57 AM
I'm curious to hear your impressions driving the M2's with the relatively low powered Benchmark amplifiers.
The AHB2 is rated 100w into 8ohms. My VU meter converted to watts on the Luxman 900u driving the 4367 never went above 30-40 watts. The M2 is 92db and the 4367 is 94db efficiency. I can’t imagine a scenario where the M2 would approach 100w on either channel. In my case, I use even less power because I cross my R/L over to subs.
Fitero
02-03-2018, 12:34 PM
I successfully powered my 4367's briefly with a PrimaLuna 36WPC Integrated amp to insane levels.
Every amp that I connected to them offered a different nuance to the sound. I'm just curious what your experience is going to be with the Benchmark amps.
Ian Mackenzie
02-03-2018, 12:48 PM
For domestic use.
Remember the M2 horn is padded down 10 dB.
I would have thought the polymer diaphragm in the D2 more forgiving than Be as far a finding the right amplifier.
Pairing up an an amplifier to soft dome or textile transducer is at the other end of the spectrum.
DallasJustice
02-03-2018, 12:59 PM
For domestic use.
Remember the M2 horn is padded down 10 dB
yes. But the 4367 uses the same drivers and also pads down the D2 so that it’s at the same level as the midwoofer. I’d bet the pad levels are almost the same.
Of course, I’ll measure using custom pink noise around the crossover region for each driver. I will set the D2’s channel level so that it is the same level as the midwoofer.
Bredin
02-03-2018, 01:56 PM
I would have thought the polymer diaphragm in the D2 more forgiving than Be as far a finding the right amplifier.
It's bad practice to make assumptions with audio based on things like materials alone. D2 is of a different technology all together and we have no clues on how rigid the the polymer is either.
I'm curious to hear your impressions driving the M2's with the relatively low powered Benchmark amplifiers.
Apparently, the main engineers involved with the design of the M2 use the Crown DCI amps and consider the Itech and other more expensive amplifiers a waste of money. However, that might be callous engineer pragmatism.
As mentioned above, we often feel better about our gear if we extenuate ourselves and buy the most expensive audio jewelry that we can afford. It must be something to do with our human nature.
100watt on the M2 should be good for 112dB@1meter.
I think that solid state amps that are within certain specs should sound pretty much the same. I think that we'll just see diminishing returns the better the specs get after a certain point. Here in Sweden we have "LTS", or "Sound-technology society" that swears by transparency in certain electronics. They really like the Rotel RB-1590 as far as I can tell, and that might be a good option for the Benchmark as it costs $1200 less(here in Sweden at least), and delivers 465watts @ 8ohms, 841watts @ 4ohms and 1568watts @ 2ohms (I don't know if it's measured with one or two channels).
My Rotel RB-1582 is specified at 200watts @ 8ohms with 3volt input. I have my dacs output limited to 2.12V and I normally play at -30dB to -20dB, after about -10dB it's too loud for comfort. So maybe about 10watt should be enough for me, but it doesn't stop me from considering amplifiers at 600watt :dead_horse:
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