speaker connections for 4343

[pyonc]

Hi friends,

As you see in the attached pic, speaker input jacks on 4343 are old-fashioned binding posts where you can only use bare wires.
I've been using bare wires both for LF and MF/HF (biamp) for the past several years, as some say bare wire sounds best. However, over time I see the color of the bare wires hooked into the binding posts has changed due to oxidation. Now, I would like to invite your opinion on the best possible way for terminating the bare wires. For example, do you recommend using connectors like spade lugs or banana plugs? Any advice or feedback is welcome. Thanks.

[grumpy]

You can tin the wires (solder), you can treat the wires (something like caig-labs stuff), you can cut an inch off and
expose new bare wire, or you could go to the trouble of changing the terminals and do whatever you happen to like.

My guess is that the oxidation noted did not particularly affect the contact points where metal was pressing on metal.
Personally, I would clean the terminals, tin the leads, then a few years later clean the terminals (repeat).

[pyonc]

You can tin the wires (solder), you can treat the wires (something like caig-labs stuff), you can cut an inch off and
expose new bare wire, or you could go to the trouble of changing the terminals and do whatever you happen to like.

My guess is that the oxidation noted did not particularly affect the contact points where metal was pressing on metal.
Personally, I would clean the terminals, tin the leads, then a few years later clean the terminals (repeat).

Thanks much for your advice, grumpy. The problem here is I can't wiggle the soldered thick wire like Kimber 8TC (9 awg) into the small input holes of the lower binding posts, currently used for LF in my case. For upper terminals(MF/H), though, I have no problem with connecting soldered wires (16awg)...

[Wagner]

You can tin the wires (solder), you can treat the wires (something like caig-labs stuff), you can cut an inch off and
expose new bare wire, or you could go to the trouble of changing the terminals and do whatever you happen to like.

My guess is that the oxidation noted did not particularly affect the contact points where metal was pressing on metal.
Personally, I would clean the terminals, tin the leads, then a few years later clean the terminals (repeat).
+1
I have also found that certain brands of wire are less susceptible to the oxidation process (turning colors other than "copper")
The current production Monster cable being the worst of the bunch (I stopped using it years ago) which has a tendency to first turn green and then black (the once go to "Monster Classic" or whatever it is they call it)
I think it has to do with how many impurities are in the metal; the outer jacket also becomes sticky over time
Didn't use to be that way, back when it first came out, years ago
I have some Monster cable that's almost 40 years old now that's as fresh looking as it was the day I bought it, other runs bought in the past 10 years have consistently turned into a big sticky black/green mess after about 5 years or less
Country of origin perhaps?
I have contacted them regarding this and their response was to send it back (for a POSSIBLE warranty replacement) as all of our wire has a "lifetime" warranty, but the cost(s) of shipping a couple of 20' runs (or more) of 12 gauge "classic" exceeds what the wire cost in bulk, so I just shit canned it
I have opened old cabinets from the late 1950s, early 1960s and the copper was still as shiny as a fresh cut new wire (back when they used just basic U.S.A. made "zip" cord
No matter whose wire I use, I also dip (submerge) the exposed end in some Caig fluid or similar
The Monster experience has often caused me to wonder what the conductors look like all sealed up in the fancy jackets of my Cardas stuff
One of the reasons why now I just go for good quality U.S.A. or Japanese made wire from folks like Belden or Mogami at .98 cents a foot give or take

For bare wire applications, strip it to the length you need with a little extra, tin it LIGHTLY (I see a lot of tinning way overdone) and coat the area where the wire exits the jacket with Vaseline or silicone (dielectric) grease and shrink wrap that spot good and tight

Properly tinned, the solder should not run up into the jacket

That's about all you can do

[pyonc]

+1

For bare wire applications, strip it to the length you need with a little extra, tin it LIGHTLY (I see a lot of tinning way overdone) and coat the area where the wire exits the jacket with Vaseline or silicone (dielectric) grease and shrink wrap that spot good and tight

Properly tinned, the solder should not run up into the jacket

That's about all you can do

Thanks. Again, the problem is the thickness of the 9 AWG wire, which I find very difficult to wiggle into the terminal inputs, whether the wire is bare or soldered...

[grumpy]

Sounds like you're headed to at least a swap of the lower set of terminals.

The only other thing I can offer (without modifying your crossovers)
is to terminate the kimber(-ish) cable with pins rather than bare wire,
or spades, or banana plugs. They work well with the stock pro monitor
connectors like yours.

The angled ones are easier to deal with:


http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0811/5351/products/62-view2-Bent_speaker_pins_RATIO_large.jpg?v=1429623430 (http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0811/5351/products/62-view2-Bent_speaker_pins_RATIO.jpg?v=1429623430)

[pyonc]

Sounds like you're headed to at least a swap of the lower set of terminals.

The only other thing I can offer (without modifying your crossovers)
is to terminate the kimber(-ish) cable with pins rather than bare wire,
or spades, or banana plugs. They work well with the stock pro monitor
connectors like yours.

The angled ones are easier to deal with:


http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0811/5351/products/62-view2-Bent_speaker_pins_RATIO_large.jpg?v=1429623430 (http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0811/5351/products/62-view2-Bent_speaker_pins_RATIO.jpg?v=1429623430)


Oh, that's beautiful. Let me try that!

[Wagner]

Oh, that's beautiful. Let me try that!
+1 on the pins as well, or simply trim back some of the 9 gauge at the point of termination
I don't know what you've got going on, but 9 gauge wire for speaker cables is a bit of overkill in my opinion
Some automobile battery cables are barely that
Why such a heavy wire? Enormously long runs?

9 gauge is definitely moving towards high amp automotive or house wiring territory? If that's what you like or already have on hand, fine, but definitely not necessary from an insertion loss perspective. Cable that heavy will definitely put a strain on any connector as well (unless it's in an electrical service panel or under the hood of a car. Make sure they are well supported off the backs of your amp(s) and speakers:


http://fmarvasti.com/Graphics/SpeakerWire.jpg
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge/insertionloss.jpg/image

[Krunchy]

+1

The Monster experience has often caused me to wonder what the conductors look like all sealed up in the fancy jackets of my Cardas stuff
One of the reasons why now I just go for good quality U.S.A. or Japanese made wire from folks like Belden or Mogami at .98 cents a foot give or take

For bare wire applications, strip it to the length you need with a little extra, tin it LIGHTLY (I see a lot of tinning way overdone) and coat the area where the wire exits the jacket with Vaseline or silicone (dielectric) grease and shrink wrap that spot good and tight

Properly tinned, the solder should not run up into the jacket

That's about all you can do
You probably dont want to know (unless they're old in which case you'd probably be happy with content/quality).


I used these to replace the ones on my 4430's (same binding posts as your's), I became aware of them when I got the 4345s which John W set up with the exact posts. Just had to drill out the existing hole a tiny bit and you're done. They're hefty & well made, will accept bare cable, spade or banana.
Just an idea if you want to use thick gauge cables.

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-bpp-sn-premium-binding-post-pair-satin-nickel--091-624

[pyonc]

+1 on the pins as well, or simply trim back some of the 9 gauge at the point of termination
I don't know aht you've got going on, but 9 gauge wire for speaker cables is a bit of overkill in my opinion
Some automobile battery cables are barely that
Why such a heavy wire? Enormously long runs?

9 gauge is definitely moving towards high amp automotive or house wiring territory? If that's what you like or already have on hand, fine, but definitely not necessary from an insertion loss perspective. Cable that heavy will definitely put a strain on any connector as well (unless it's in an electrical service panel or under the hood of a car. Make sure they are well supported off the backs of your amp(s) and speakers:


http://fmarvasti.com/Graphics/SpeakerWire.jpg
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge/insertionloss.jpg/image

Hum....Well, I've chosen Kimber 8TC (3ft) just for LF, hoping that I can get more sonorous and deep bass from the 15" woofers with this kind of thick wire. Frankly I'm not so sure if there was a real improvement in the switch to Kimber, compared with Belken 16 awg bare wires. Given the chart (8ohm load for my amp) and the length of my current Kimber, I don't feel I need to stick to this 9 awg thick wire. Thanks a lot for your valuable feedback.

[pyonc]

You probably dont want to know (unless they're old in which case you'd probably be happy with content/quality).


I used these to replace the ones on my 4430's (same binding posts as your's), I became aware of them when I got the 4345s which JohnW. set up with the exact posts. Just had to drill out the existing hole a tiny bit and you're done. They're hefty & well made.
Just an idea if you want to use thick gauge cables.

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-bpp-sn-premium-binding-post-pair-satin-nickel--091-624

Thanks. Do you really have to dig out the hole for this? It looks slim enough to snug into the hole. And what about sound quality?

[Wagner]

Hum....Well, I've chosen Kimber 8TC (3ft) just for LF, hoping that I can get more sonorous and deep bass from the 15" woofers with this kind of thick wire. Frankly I'm not so sure if there was a real improvement in the switch to Kimber, compared with Belken 16 awg bare wires. Given the chart (8ohm load for my amp) and the length of my current Kimber, I don't feel I need to stick to this 9 awg thick wire. Thanks a lot for your valuable feedback.
There is nothing inherently "wrong" with the popular garden hose sized cables; it's just that they are not a requisite from a performance standpoint. If you already have them, then certainly use them. My problem is that they are often difficult to employ in real world setups (like when space is a premium and I need a nice flexible shielded cable)
They are for the most part eye candy and help sell a lot of expensive wire; I know, I've got more Cardas stuff than I'm willing to let on! :o:

It's too thick (as in not needed thick), doesn't make bends and turns well but most importantly, puts an awful lot of mechanical stress on jacks and plugs, especially vintage RCAs (unless you spend the time fooling around to support their weight) And in many instances, the termination is so large they don't fit well on older gear with more closely spaced jacks

I made the switch to the Mogami bulk catalog, a soldering iron and nice Neutrik and REAN connectors and have never looked back; they make a good quality, realistically priced, "pro" wire for just about any application you could ever want for
If I had known then what I know now, I could have wired my entire system with the same stuff a lot of good studios use for what I paid for a single pair of super duper "Golden Ratio" interconnects
(got a nice big box of "gently" used Cardas stuff is anyone is interested! :))

This is not a knock on Cardas; just stating the fact that it's not a very practical cable for real world use (and it definitely doesn't do anything the Mogami or high quality Belden wire can't do. Belden and Mogami also publish their capacitance specs so you can choose appropriately for your projects, especially useful when making up wires for PHONO and low level signal use.

[Krunchy]

Thanks. Do you really have to dig out the hole for this? It looks slim enough to snug into the hole. And what about sound quality?

I'm not 100% sure if I had to re-size the existing hole on the 4430's but have done quite a few upgrades on many (L166, 4313B etc.) of my speakers (I dislike "standard" jbl posts) that I would not be surprised If they were drilled out a "Bit" to accommodate these particular posts. I do remember the hardest part about doing the 4430s was actually accessing the area, had to remove some cards to get to em. As for sound quality I like em just fine, If they were good enough for John W they are more than good enough for me, John is very meticulous and knowledgeable. I just measured one since I have a couple of sets on hand and they measure out to 5/16"+ on the Threads.

There are many many very good quality posts out there that you could employ, I just really dislike the stock JBL Posts because they do not accept the heavier gauge cable wire. Assuming you are not too concerned with keeping them in "Stock" out of the factory condition/specs anything that you may use to replace them would in all likelihood be an improvement as long as you dont "splurge" for the $1.50 pair :D

Have fun!

(make sure you buy a good silver solder while you're at it)

[Krunchy]

There is nothing inherently "wrong" with the popular garden hose sized cables; it's just that they are not a requisite from a performance standpoint. If you already have them, then certainly use them. My problem is that they are often difficult to employ in real world setups (like when space is a premium and I need a nice flexible shielded cable)
They are for the most part eye candy and help sell a lot of expensive wire; I know, I've got more Cardas stuff than I'm willing to let on! :o:

It's too thick (as in not needed thick), doesn't make bends and turns well but most importantly, puts an awful lot of mechanical stress on jacks and plugs, especially vintage RCAs (unless you spend the time fooling around to support their weight) And in many instances, the termination is so large they don't fit well on older gear with more closely spaced jacks

I made the switch to the Mogami bulk catalog, a soldering iron and nice Neutrik and REAN connectors and have never looked back; they make a good quality, realistically priced, "pro" wire for just about any application you could ever want for
If I had known then what I know now, I could have wired my entire system with the same stuff a lot of good studios use for what I paid for a single pair of super duper "Golden Ratio" interconnects
(got a nice big box of "gently" used Cardas stuff is anyone is interested! :))

This is not a knock on Cardas; just stating the fact that it's not a very practical cable for real world use (and it definitely doesn't do anything the Mogami or high quality Belden wire can't do. Belden and Mogami also publish their capacitance specs so you can choose appropriately for your projects, especially useful when making up wires for PHONO and low level signal use.

All very good points, and true. I just happen to have a fair amount of 10ga wire but having purchased Belden and Neutrik I think nowadays I would go for quality first over gauge.
Oddly enough when we moved into this house there were these huge long cables running under the carpet (I thought they were "CABLE Tv" cables they were so thick), the previous owner must have had some serious HT setup. This was in '06 before I got the audio fever and had no idea what the heck they were, tuned out to be (2) 20'+ long Cardas cables which are now employed on the '45s.

[pyonc]

I'm not 100% sure if I had to re-size the existing hole on the 4430's but have done quite a few upgrades on many (L166, L4313B, L150, L96 etc.) of my speakers (I dislike "standard" jbl posts) that I would not be surprised If they were drilled out a "it" to accommodate these particular posts. I do remember the hardest part about doing the 4430s was actually accessing the area, had to remove some cards to get to em. As for sound quality I like em just fine, If they were good enough for John W they are more than good enough for me, John is very meticulous and knowledgeable. I just measured one since I have a couple of sets on hand and they measure out to 5/16"+ on the Threads.

There are many many very good quality posts out there that you could employ, I just really dislike the stock JBL Posts because they do not accept the heavier gauge cable wire, like basic 10 gauge which is what I like to use. Bottom line is anything that you may use to replace them would in all likelihood be an improvement as long as you dont "splurge" for the $1.50 pair :D

Have fun!

(make sure you buy a good silver solder)

I really appreciate your good points on this. Looks like you're good at that, but I'm far from it.

[Wagner]

I really appreciate your good points on this. Looks like you're good at that, but I'm far from it.
Any decently made post will serve your needs, just as good as any other, just look carefully at the dimensions and hole sizes etc and pick the one that will meet your requirements

You can buy very well made binding posts for between $5 to $10 bucks

Parts Express has some good choices but they gouge on shipping, so try and order when you have a list if you go with them; there are other good suppliers as well (do a search, especially for outfits that cater to the pro sound trade) The guys I like to use for wire charge actual cost for shipping but I don't think they stock consumer type 5-ways
Don't fall for the audio jewelry :bs:

[bldozier]

i read in a few forums swapping to gold or copper plating may effect the sound reproduction. can anyone confirm. i see a resale company
which uses rhodium for their terminals.
I'm wondering if eliminating the dated JBL terminals for gold or rhodium set may benefit, the 3114.
also would updating L-pads affect the outputs at all.
thanks

[Ricpan]

I do something a little different. I solder directly to the the crossover. I have done it on my JBL 4345s and my Bozak Concert Grands. I think the metal connection on the older speakers are not very good. I think you get a better connection and it cost you next to nothing. If I have to move my speakers I just disconnect from my amps. My 4345s even had expensive MDT connectors and I took them out.

[bldozier]

Interesting, if I have a rash I buy an ointment, I don't see a doctor.
But maybe I should start.
What are MDT connections,

i listened to a sound
comparison between stock 3143 an rebuilt networks. The stock
sounded more musical over the newer networks. From the
lower to upper bands, not as punchy.

my 3114s not 100% original having L-pads and caps out.
I don't have anything for a comparison at the moment
but I may want to somehow liven it up. I can't soldier but
would change my terminals in a heartbeat. L-pads are already
done.

[Ruediger]

They guarantee a contact resistance < 2 milli Ohms after "life time" which is specified as > 5000 plugging cycles.

Ruediger

[BMWCCA]

They guarantee a contact resistance < 2 milli Ohms after "life time" which is specified as > 5000 plugging cycles.
Roller contacts with positive lock. They were on my 4345s when I got them. Took them off simply because they were wired for the crossovers outside the cabinets and I wanted them inside. It looked to me like all the rather small Faston connections on the Neutrik NL8 would be the weak point in the path so I went with Neutrik dual-bananas on 6-Moon White Lighting cables from the two amps into conventional two-pair binding post input cups at the back of the speakers and then direct to the drivers and L-pads. Seemed simpler for my application but I've used the NLs in professional applications with great results.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi friends,

As you see in the attached pic, speaker input jacks on 4343 are old-fashioned binding posts where you can only use bare wires.
I've been using bare wires both for LF and MF/HF (biamp) for the past several years, as some say bare wire sounds best. However, over time I see the color of the bare wires hooked into the binding posts has changed due to oxidation. Now, I would like to invite your opinion on the best possible way for terminating the bare wires. For example, do you recommend using connectors like spade lugs or banana plugs? Any advice or feedback is welcome. Thanks.

It’s an old problem

Your choices depend on your budget and associated equipment

My friends at Pass Labs recommend short stout wires and good terminations.

I have used Cardas spades and binding posts with no complaints

For a bit more more money you get something worthwhile.

The key points are surface area and contact pressure.

Use a quality spade with a superior flat contact area.

You can’t do that with a wire.

Quality finishes on the spade and the binding post will mitigate oxides but periodic cleaning is always advisable

That JBL binding post (old style) is essentially a steel bolt.

Its sinful to find such a thing on any deprived loudspeaker.

Throw it out.