Help with HT sub, possible 4645C clone paired with Danish 90's L series speakers?

[ChristianJS]

Hello all.

I have recently developed an affection for older JBL speakers.
The reason was that we had no real stereo in the new house, and while looking for what to do, I kept discarding the small modern wife-friendly boxes, they all came up short in my opinion...
The wife like big speakers, so I was rather free to find what I wanted.

So I fell in love with a series fo JBL speakers that was built here in Denmark
The L-series from the 90's.

I have found and aqcuired the following:

2x L100 fronts (050TI, 705G, LE120H)
2x L80 for surround (050TI, 705G, 708G)
1x L-Center for center (dooh) (050TI, 705G x2)

All driven by a Denon avr-x5200w...

BUT I need a sub!

The Wife have approved a 4645C, but I have some questions/considerations

(But please be patient with me, I am a novice)

My thoughts:
A 4645C is almost impossible to find used here, but a rather easy box to build, so I'm considering finding a driver and build the box myself.
I think I will integrate in a shelf wall, and use it as the base for the TV...
My questions:
The 4645 came with both 2242h and 2245 driver (right?) which would be best for HT/home audio?
Would another (JBL) 18" be a better match?
What amp type of would you use?
Would something like the PWR-ICE250 from miniDSP https://www.minidsp.com/products/plate-amplifiers/pwr-ice250 replace the use of the BX63?
Thanks,

Christian

[ChristianJS]

Well... I've read on...

So the consensus is the 2245H is superior and excellent in a 12 cu.ft cabinet (as per Greg Timbers, 1983

But Greg states that: "(...)often promote severe standing wave problems. For the same reason, it helps to mount the driver approximately one-third of the way down the long side." As I plan on making it a center piece in the living room, and actually place the center channel and TV on top of it, I would like to put the driver in the center and have two ports, one on each side of the driver, any thoughts?

[hlaari]

Hello all.

I have recently developed an affection for older JBL speakers.
The reason was that we had no real stereo in the new house, and while looking for what to do, I kept discarding the small modern wife-friendly boxes, they all came up short in my opinion...
The wife like big speakers, so I was rather free to find what I wanted.

So I fell in love with a series fo JBL speakers that was built here in Denmark
The L-series from the 90's.

I have found and aqcuired the following:

2x L100 fronts (050TI, 705G, LE120H)
2x L80 for surround (050TI, 705G, 708G)
1x L-Center for center (dooh) (050TI, 705G x2)

All driven by a Denon avr-x5200w...

BUT I need a sub!

The Wife have approved a 4645C, but I have some questions/considerations

(But please be patient with me, I am a novice)

My thoughts:
A 4645C is almost impossible to find used here, but a rather easy box to build, so I'm considering finding a driver and build the box myself.
I think I will integrate in a shelf wall, and use it as the base for the TV...
My questions:
The 4645 came with both 2242h and 2245 driver (right?) which would be best for HT/home audio?
Would another (JBL) 18" be a better match?
What amp type of would you use?
Would something like the PWR-ICE250 from miniDSP https://www.minidsp.com/products/plate-amplifiers/pwr-ice250 replace the use of the BX63?
Thanks,

Christian

I would use 2245h or 2269g/h in 4645, 4645B, 4645C enclosure, both woofers are better for sub duty than 2241g/h or 2242h in HT system

Ari

[ChristianJS]

Thanks Ari
After having read a lot here, I have settled on the 2245H, the 2269G/H is just too expensive and would be overkill in a HT system IMOP...
Cabinetwise I am looking at a 4645 clone, but do you guys think it will be ok to put the driver in the center of the baffle and have two ports, one on each side?

[baldrick]

I would use 2245h or 2269g/h in 4645, 4645B, 4645C enclosure, both woofers are better for sub duty than 2241g/h or 2242h in HT system

Ari

I disagree about 2245H, I think 2242H is a better choice for HT in 4645 cabinet. The original 4645 with 2245H was tuned to 35hz and really doesn't dig deep enough for HT use. 4645B and 4645C With 2242 is tuned to 25hz and works much better, but also need some EQ. If you EQ 2245H in either cabinet you will run out of excursion very soon :(

2245H is a very musical and nice sounding woofer but is not ideal for HT use, or at least it need a HUGE Box tuned to around 20hz.

2269H is probably by far the best solution, but also the most expensive one.

[hlaari]

I disagree about 2245H, I think 2242H is a better choice for HT in 4645 cabinet. The original 4645 with 2245H was tuned to 35hz and really doesn't dig deep enough for HT use. 4645B and 4645C With 2242 is tuned to 25hz and works much better, but also need some EQ. If you EQ 2245H in either cabinet you will run out of excursion very soon :(

2245H is a very musical and nice sounding woofer but is not ideal for HT use, or at least it need a HUGE Box tuned to around 20hz.

2269H is probably by far the best solution, but also the most expensive one.

I have owned 4645C for many years ago and also 4881 with 15" 2256g and the 4881 out perform the 4645C in the lowest freq.
you need a lot of EQ for 2242h to work as a sub, 2242h have fs around 35Hz and 2245h around 20Hz
2242h are good in PA system and 2245h in HT system


Ari

[baldrick]

As you know, I also use 4645 (4 of them) in my HT, and 2242 really don't need to much EQ to be flat to get 20-25hz inroom response. I've also had several 4645 with 2245, it doesn't work better, quite the opposite.

Low FS isn't that important when it will need a huge box.. 2245H is great for HT IF you have a huge Box (12-14 cu ft) and low tuning, but in a 4645 Box (8 cu ft), 2245H is not very good in my opinion and therefore 2242 works better.

I have no doubt 2256/W15GTI works better than 2242 in the lowest freq, the same for 2269.

[hlaari]

As you know, I also use 4645 (4 of them) in my HT, and 2242 really don't need to much EQ to be flat to get 20-25hz inroom response. I've also had several 4645 with 2245, it doesn't work better, quite the opposite.

Low FS isn't that important when it will need a huge box.. 2245H is great for HT IF you have a huge Box (12-14 cu ft) and low tuning, but in a 4645 Box (8 cu ft), 2245H is not very good in my opinion and therefore 2242 works better.

I have no doubt 2256/W15GTI works better than 2242 in the lowest freq, the same for 2269.

you might be right about at 2242h work better in smaller enclosure than 2245h
there is also the 18" woofer from Revel, I have pair of them and need to find time to try them

[4313B]

I disagree about 2245H, I think 2242H is a better choice for HT in 4645 cabinet.
The original 4645 was tuned to 25 Hz (think B460) but the 2245H's kept blowing up. The 4645 was then tuned higher to 30 Hz in an attempt to better protect the 2245H. It didn't work. The 2242H was designed to take significantly more power and the 4645 was tuned back down to 25 Hz to extend the 2242H as low as practical (it doesn't go as low as the 2245H does naturally, primarily because of the inbalance due to its rising response). One difference between the 2242H and the 2245H was how insanely "clean" the 2242H sounded by comparison. It really was a "theater" subwoofer, ultra-high power, ultra-low frequency, ultra-low distortion without blowing up during its service years.
you might be right about at 2242h work better in smaller enclosure than 2245h
Yes, the 2242H had a lower compliance and higher Fs compared to the 2245H. JBL was able to get them to maintain the same bandwidth in a much smaller volume and with greater maximum output.

there is also the 18" woofer from Revel, I have pair of them and need to find time to try themYeah you do! Nice! :yes:

[hlaari]

The original 4645 was tuned to 25 Hz (think B460) but the 2245H's kept blowing up. The 4645 was then tuned higher to 30 Hz in an attempt to better protect the 2245H. It didn't work. The 2242H was designed to take significantly more power and the 4645 was tuned back down to 25 Hz to extend the 2242H as low as practical (it doesn't go as low as the 2245H does naturally, primarily because of the inbalance due to its rising response). One difference between the 2242H and the 2245H was how insanely "clean" the 2242H sounded by comparison.Yes, the 2242H had a lower compliance and higher Fs compared to the 2245H. JBL was able to get them to maintain the same bandwidth in a much smaller volume and with greater maximum output.

neo 2258h are very similar like 2242h in bandwith and both have greater maximum output than 2245h

[4313B]

neo 2258h are very similar like 2242h in bandwith and both have greater maximum output than 2245hGotta love that weight savings eh?

[ChristianJS]

Now we are getting somewhere!

From what I have read, the 2242H 4645 works excellent when more than one is applied, so Baldrick might be right, along with the rest of you guys.
From all I have read, the 2245H is the best option in a normal HT or Hifi environment...

I have been offered a pair of 2245H 4645(?) with good drivers, only issue being I don't need 2!! (I think...)
The (very nice) guy wants to sell both...

Damn, I'm tempted!

[4313B]

Another very good point! The 2242H works better with boundary reinforcement and mutual coupling via multiples. The 2245H works better stand alone.

[baldrick]

It really was a "theater" subwoofer, ultra-high power, ultra-low frequency, ultra-low distortion without blowing up during its service years.

Yeah right :p:D

[ChristianJS]

Yeah right :p:D

Stop doing things like that Baldrick!!!
It's like throwing food out in front of starving children!!!:crying:;)

[ChristianJS]

The original 4645 was tuned to 25 Hz (think B460) but the 2245H's kept blowing up. The 4645 was then tuned higher to 30 Hz in an attempt to better protect the 2245H. It didn't work.

Any way of telling them apart?
The 4645 I have been offered comes with reconed 2245H's, but I would like the 25 Hz ones, of course!

[baldrick]

4645 (2245) have 3 bass ports and slightly different Dimensions than the others (and I thought it was tuned to 35 hz and not 30, but I may be wrong)
4645B (2242) have 2 bass ports (25 hz)
4645C (2242) have 1 bass port (25 hz), otherwise the same as 4645B

[ChristianJS]

It is a pair of the 25Hz 4645 with 2245H, so it should be the best possible option for HT, I'm a lucky guy!
The seller wants to sell both at once, and while the price is very reasonable, I did not intent to buy two, and did not plan on putting two of those in our living room...

I could sell one on, or keep both, but what to do?

[Ed Zeppeli]

It is a pair of the 25Hz 4645 with 2245H, so it should be the best possible option for HT, I'm a lucky guy!
The seller wants to sell both at once, and while the price is very reasonable, I did not intent to buy two, and did not plan on putting two of those in our living room...

I could sell one on, or keep both, but what to do?


Keep both if you can squeeze them in. You may need a few to help eliminate room nodes.

[ChristianJS]

This ought to be moved from DIY... Well...

I should be able to, the wall is 22' by 10.5'... (675x322cm)

Although the WAF-factor might not be the best on the 4645, two have been approved...!

I made a Cad drawing of how I plan on making the shelves and place the speakers:
67749

[Ed Zeppeli]

Should be no shortage of bass with both those 18s corner-loaded like that. :D

[ChristianJS]

Should be no shortage of bass with both those 18s corner-loaded like that. :D

True! But that's the recommendation of a true professional here in DK (and the seller), he sets up theaters and have been doing it for decades.
You should see what he has at home!!!

(I would love to put up a link or pic, but I would never do that without concent from the owner of the pictures...)

[ChristianJS]

Just a little update:

The two 4645 (the one's with 2245H!) have arrived and I love them!

But I needed something to drive them, something worthy.............
So a JBL UREI 6260 have been purchased, I couldn't be more pleased!:D

[hlaari]

congratulations!

I think at you did make the right decision to buy 4645 with 2245h
I don´t think at you will blow the 2245h before the front speaker you are using with them:D

are the surround good on the 2245h woofers?


Ari

[grumpy]

If you run into sub amp headroom problems, another 6260 will likely cure the problem
(one amp bridged per 2245). An impressive setup! :)

[ChristianJS]

Hi Ari

Both 2245H have been serviced recently, surrounds are mint!

Grumpy, I don't think that will be necessary, That would mean upgrading everything else in the system, and downgrading on the personal front from family man to single again ;-)

I must say that I love the setup!

Although many will not classify a set of 4645 with a 6260 in the living room as a "subwoofer", I am fortunate enough to be able to do so.
I am not a seasoned audiophile, nor do I possess the skills and ears to give you a qualified review, but I can share my personal experience:

I hear a lot of different sounding deep bass compaired to conventional sealed subs.
I am used to the sealed design, and had never really considered the "one note wonders" critique, but I am astonished that the sound guys actually put that much work in to the LF and ULF sound...
The whole setup (4645 + 6260) seems to have a feeling of effortlessness about it (it bloody well should, I know!!) again compaired to classical small volume sealed subs.
Compaired to the 4645, most small sealed subs are like having an illtempered bulldog laying in the corner growling, whereas the 4645 setup opens up the very bottom end without compromising quality.

I try to have the system balanced, and I don't turn the sub voulme up, just because I can, and they do provide that extra dimension even at very low volume and I love it!