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Valentin
10-15-2015, 12:27 PM
I was looking at Facebooks JBL synthesis page when i noticed a new horn and a two way 15"

some attending CEDIA Dallas 2015

67651

pos
10-15-2015, 12:45 PM
A M2 waveguide with a "biradial style" form factor, and no super tweeter.
Most interesting!
I wonder what the compression driver will be.
476Mg or D2430K? Or something new?
The woofer looks very much like a 2216nd. Maybe a "passive crossover friendly" version with a lower fs?
I think 4313B mentioned that some variants of the 2216nd were coming...

audiomagnate
10-15-2015, 12:57 PM
My bet is on a D2430K/2216nd home version of the M2 with a passive crossover. That's big news, and an awfully cool looking horn.

4313B
10-15-2015, 01:01 PM
For JBL’s Studio Monitor speaker series, the group is replacing the flagship $15,000/pair 4365 speaker with the 4367 at the same price.

The new model is a two-way 15-inch speaker that has been upgraded to add a punchier woofer (2216Nd-1), more midrange snap, and more detailed high frequencies with higher output (D22430K), a spokesperson said. It will be available in November in two cosmetic versions. One features walnut cabinet with blue baffle and blue grille like the original studio monitors, and the other comes in black walnut with black grille that completely covers the iconic blue baffle. It’s designed for consumers who like to keep the grilles off when playing music.

http://dcoystaging.com/JBL_Synthesis/4367/index.html

4367
15" 2-way Studio Monitor Loudspeaker

Specs
Features:
15" (380mm) low-frequency transducer for low-distortion, natural sound

Extremely smooth and wide frequency response

High-Definition Imaging (HDI™) horn technology

Frequency Response:
30Hz – 40kHz

Speaker Configuration:
3" (175mm) D22430K dual compression (U.S. patent no. 8280091) with High-Definition Imaging (HDI™) waveguide horn (U.S. patents pending)

15" (380mm) 2216Nd-1 Differential Drive® woofer (U.S. patent nos. 5664023, 5748760, 6768804, 6847726, 6774510)

Power Handling:
300 watts RMS

Sensitivity 1W @ 1m:
94dB

Nominal Impedance:
6 Ohms

Dimensions (H x W x D):
37-1/16" x 22-1/16" x 16-3/4" (941 mm x 560 mm x 425 mm)

Weight:
135 lb (61.2 kg)

Valentin
10-15-2015, 01:20 PM
so its a consumers M2 I like the concept

pos
10-15-2015, 01:21 PM
Was GT involved with this one?

bubbleboy76
10-15-2015, 02:25 PM
Wow, that looks nice!
I hope speakerexchange will not sell these horns, because then I will have to buy them...

Much cheaper elements in it, but at the same price as 4365. The Harman way!

Mctwins
10-15-2015, 03:38 PM
Cool!!!

Seems little bit smaller in dimension than 4365. But I like the black one.

There is little info on the new site for the synthesis.

And...the nominal impedance is 6ohm

Ed Zeppeli
10-15-2015, 04:45 PM
Wow. It's a return to the 4430 with modern tech.

I'd love to see the cabinet volume as I'm interested in building my own UBM with a 2216ND for use with SAM1HF.

Nice to see something new at any rate.


Cheers,

Warren

Ed Zeppeli
10-15-2015, 04:55 PM
For JBL’s Studio Monitor speaker series, the group is replacing the flagship $15,000/pair 4365 speaker with the 4367 at the same price.
The new model is a two-way 15-inch speaker that has been upgraded to add a punchier woofer, more midrange snap, and more detailed high frequencies with higher output, a spokesperson said. It will be available in November in two cosmetic versions. One features walnut cabinet with blue baffle and blue grille like the original studio monitors, and the other comes in black walnut with black grille that completely covers the iconic blue baffle. It’s designed for consumers who like to keep the grilles off when playing music.

more here...

http://www.twice.com/harmans-jbl-synthesis-systems-upgraded/58955

Jonas_h
10-16-2015, 01:39 AM
Interesting!

I was hoping to see a Synthesis speaker with a 4" 476XX and active settings just like the M2 though. From raw driver perspective, I think the new model is a step back from the old one.

4313B
10-16-2015, 05:42 AM
I would not be surprised if we've seen the last of the uber transducers like the 1500 and 476.

Besides, who really cares? All this nonsense ended with the availability of the M2 components. They might not be quite in the same league as the Everest/K2/4365 components but JBL Professional definitely knew what to do with them to maximize their potential.


Wow. It's a return to the 4430 with modern tech.Well, some of us considered the M2 to be the 4430 replacement several years ago.


A M2 waveguide with a "biradial style" form factor, and no super tweeter.While I like the looks of the H4338, I have to say that I prefer the M2 wave guide to this 4367 offering. I am really looking forward to using the narrower baffle of the M2.

Ed Zeppeli
10-16-2015, 08:19 AM
Well, some of us considered the M2 to be the 4430 replacement several years ago.



I suppose that's true in so far as it's a two way with a 15 as well.

I think the 4367 has a few more visual similarities to the 4430 though with the blue baffle (looks like 4430 with grill on) and similar box shape. I'm not sure but will assume that the new model will not be 100% DSP controlled and will include a passive network.

I wonder if the '-1' designation on the 2216ND is to represent visual or mechanical modifications to the woofer.

pos
10-16-2015, 08:34 AM
While I like the looks of the H4338, I have to say that I prefer the M2 wave guide to this 4367 offering. I am really looking forward to using the narrower baffle of the M2.

I do too: the asymmetrical aspect ratio and directivity will always cause pattern flip in the lower part of the range.
And then the deeper horn might load the D2 better and reduce distortion down low compared to the M2, but the slower flare rate will cause an increase of said distortion with frequency...

All in all as you said the M2 waveguide is nice, and available :D

bubbleboy76
10-16-2015, 08:38 AM
"High-Definition Imaging (HDI™) horn technology" "More midrange snap""
What does this mean with plain words?
What is the expected difference to the previous bi-radial horn in 4365? That the off-axis curves are more similar to the on-axis? Different kind of dispersion?
Better in spinorama?

pos
10-16-2015, 08:45 AM
I wonder if the '-1' designation on the 2216ND is to represent visual or mechanical modifications to the woofer.

http://www.hometoys.com/news/2015/10/16/cedia--harman%E2%80%99s-jbl-4367-studio-monitor-brings-professional-grade-audio-performance-to-the-home/32485:

The 4367 employs the JBL 2216Nd 15-inch Differential Drive® woofer used in the M2, modified with a new spider and a new surround treatment.

The goal is probably to lower the fs and make it easier to deal with with a passive crossover

Ed Zeppeli
10-16-2015, 08:47 AM
Interesting. Thanks POS

pos
10-16-2015, 08:51 AM
"High-Definition Imaging (HDI™) horn technology" "More midrange snap""
What does this mean with plain words?
What is the expected difference to the previous bi-radial horn in 4365? That the off-axis curves are more similar to the on-axis? Different kind of dispersion?
Better in spinorama?

The biradial all have a kown "issue" with off axis levels exceeding the on axis ones at some frequencies, typically in the 3kHz-10kHz range.

bubbleboy76
10-16-2015, 10:43 AM
The biradial all have a kown "issue" with off axis levels exceeding the on axis ones at some frequencies, typically in the 3kHz-10kHz range.

And that affects imaging and "midrange snap" (whatever that means?!)?

pos
10-16-2015, 10:57 AM
I think the "midrange snap" part was related to the woofer (rightly or wrongly):
http://www.twice.com/harmans-jbl-synthesis-systems-upgraded/58955

The new model is a two-way 15-inch speaker that has been upgraded to add a punchier woofer (2216Nd-1), more midrange snap, and more detailed high frequencies with higher output (D22430K), a spokesperson said.

ngccglp
10-16-2015, 07:19 PM
I totally agree with the comment that it's defintely a step backwards. What punchier bass? It's another way of saying there's going to be a lack of bass. The last I auditioned the M2 the bass is too lean, maybe that's suitable for studio monitor purposes but that balance is definitely not suited for home audio.

Also the price of the 4367 should be lowered, it's using all cheaper components as compared with the original 4365.

what's going on at Harman ....

4313B
10-16-2015, 07:24 PM
The last I auditioned the M2 the bass is too lean, maybe that's suitable for studio monitor purposes but that balance is definitely not suited for home audio.Seriously? :rolleyes:


I totally agree with the comment that it's defintely a step backwards. What punchier bass? It's another way of saying there's going to be a lack of bass.You haven't even heard the system yet... :rolleyes:


what's going on at Harman ....Hopefully a full scale brain drain. I'd love to see everyone worthwhile find employment at a fully funded competitor and I'd like to see Harman buried once and for all.

Valentin
10-16-2015, 08:08 PM
Come on. The bass in the M2 is not lean

i gess you you just can't get enough of it

Flaesh
10-17-2015, 01:01 PM
.. and more detailed high frequencies with higher output (D22430K)..
Is D22430K modified D2430K?..

4313B
10-17-2015, 01:04 PM
Is D22430K modified D2430K?..:dont-know:

Could be a typo. Maybe someone saw D2 and 2430K and decided to put them together, maybe even the same person that came up with Brangelina perhaps?


I think the "midrange snap" part was related to the woofer (rightly or wrongly):I remember conversations about the then new 2216Nd and "midrange snap" came up alot. People really liked that attribute. I guess Jerry made the -1 even snappier :rotfl:

Flaesh
10-17-2015, 02:44 PM
:dont-know:

Could be a typo..
Could.
In this case D2430K has " more detailed high frequencies with higher output " than what?
In comparison with 4365 HF-UHF?
One guy installed D2430K in 4429. He says that he is happy and satisfied :).

ngccglp
10-17-2015, 10:39 PM
Seriously? :rolleyes:

You haven't even heard the system yet... :rolleyes:

Hopefully a full scale brain drain. I'd love to see everyone worthwhile find employment at a fully funded competitor and I'd like to see Harman buried once and for all.

Agree I was presumptuous there, when it arrived at our shore I will definitely give it a listen. Actually I made the comment based on my M2 experience, and since the 4367 is using similar bass driver...

The only instrument which I think the M2 excel in rendering is the piano, the pitch is right and the natural decay of notes outstanding. But when we put on normal pop rock music immediately it was clear that there is a distinct lack of bass and you just couldn't crank the speakers without the high frequencies shouting at you.

My apology if I upset any of you guys, just sharing my encounter with the M2. I was so hoping the M2 will end my speakers quest...

ivica
10-18-2015, 01:29 AM
Could.
In this case D2430K has " more detailed high frequencies with higher output " than what?
In comparison with 4365 HF-UHF?
One guy installed D2430K in 4429. He says that he is happy and satisfied :).

Hi,
Is it necessary to reproduce sound over 20kHz, but a kind of "shortage" of LF section is quite easy recognizable.
May be the intention of using M2 is to be used with sub-woofer for respectable listening conditions,
or M2 is 'in-trend' with mobile phone generation "reproduction" equipment, where it can be seen a lot of JBL marks.

regards
Ivica

pos
10-18-2015, 01:50 AM
it was clear that there is a distinct lack of bass and you just couldn't crank the speakers without the high frequencies shouting at you.
Use EQ then, that is what you are supposed to do with the M2 (or any speaker for that matter) under ~200Hz to adapt it to the room and position.

Here is an extract of Floyd Toole's recent talk, specifically about the M2 and how it has to be adapted to any room it is installed in in the lows: https://youtu.be/zrpUDuUtxPM?list=WL&t=4342
And these rooms are all pretty big and probably have acoustic treatment...

4313B
10-18-2015, 01:52 AM
My apology if I upset any of you guys, just sharing my encounter with the M2.No problem. I was primarily perplexed given that my experiences with it were quite different.


I was so hoping the M2 will end my speakers quest...I am quite happy to say that it did end mine. :)
And it couldn't have happened at a more opportune time given that, since around 2010, Harman has been working double overtime to destroy any personal interest that I have in their organization as a whole. Their treatment of Greg was the final straw.

ngccglp
10-21-2015, 03:27 AM
Use EQ then, that is what you are supposed to do with the M2 (or any speaker for that matter) under ~200Hz to adapt it to the room and position.

Here is an extract of Floyd Toole's recent talk, specifically about the M2 and how it has to be adapted to any room it is installed in in the lows: https://youtu.be/zrpUDuUtxPM?list=WL&t=4342
And these rooms are all pretty big and probably have acoustic treatment...

When I auditioned the M2, it was driven by a pair of Crowns which is supposed to have the correct EQ in them, which was why I went away rather disappointed.

Valentin
10-21-2015, 05:19 AM
Probably your audición was a Bad one

M2 are not bass shy I hear them evry day

macaroonie
10-21-2015, 05:44 AM
Just to change direction slightly , I wonder what will show up using the smaller D2 driver the 2415K. Currently it is only in the small VTX array.
Surely a no brainer for ' bookshelf' 2 way systems with a 12" bass driver

4313B
10-21-2015, 08:29 AM
When I auditioned the M2, it was driven by a pair of Crowns which is supposed to have the correct EQ in them, which was why I went away rather disappointed.


Probably your audición was a Bad one

M2 are not bass shy I hear them evry dayYep. User Error.

Mctwins
10-21-2015, 09:55 AM
Yep. User Error.

:)

Jonas_h
10-22-2015, 03:28 AM
When I auditioned the M2, it was driven by a pair of Crowns which is supposed to have the correct EQ in them, which was why I went away rather disappointed.

There is no "correct EQ" for the Crowns. There is the correct M2 speaker tuning but the correct EQ is determined by room, speaker position, listening position and treatments in the room.

ivica
10-22-2015, 04:25 AM
Yep. User Error.

Hi 4313B,

Does that mean that almost ANY speaker can be EQualized to cover say 30Hz to 16kHz +/- 3dB.
If that is 'the case', why to spend so much on JBL (M2, DD, K2, 44, 43....) speakers instead to buy
decent pieces, coming from China, Thailand or Vietnam ??
+ DSP driven network ( example MiniDSP) and proper amplifier/

regards
ivica

audiomagnate
10-22-2015, 04:45 AM
Hi 4313B,

Does that mean that almost ANY speaker can be EQualized to cover say 30Hz to 16kHz +/- 3dB.
If that is 'the case', why to spend so much on JBL (M2, DD, K2, 44, 43....) speakers instead to buy
decent pieces, coming from China, Thailand or Vietnam ??
+ DSP driven network ( example MiniDSP) and proper amplifier/

regards
ivica

You can't EQ out resonances and other gross colorations caused by acoustic anomolies. They are going to get excited and do their thing no matter what.

4313B
10-22-2015, 06:19 AM
Does that meanIt means there is nothing wrong with the M2...


There is no "correct EQ" for the Crowns. There is the correct M2 speaker tuning but the correct EQ is determined by room, speaker position, listening position and treatments in the room.Jonas seems to "get it". That guy who wiped everything (M2 settings) so he could start from scratch obviously did not...


You can't EQ out resonances and other gross colorations caused by acoustic anomolies. They are going to get excited and do their thing no matter what.That is why Pro made the M2 box as resonance free as possible.

Mr. Widget
10-22-2015, 09:05 AM
Hi 4313B,

Does that mean that almost ANY speaker can be EQualized to cover say 30Hz to 16kHz +/- 3dB.
If that is 'the case', why to spend so much on JBL (M2, DD, K2, 44, 43....) speakers instead to buy
decent pieces, coming from China, Thailand or Vietnam ??
+ DSP driven network ( example MiniDSP) and proper amplifier/

regards
ivicaI bet there are many folks who wonder about this.

1. Yes, virtually ANY speaker can be equalized to be flat +/- 3dB between 30Hz and 16KHz on axis. There will be power and max SPL restrictions with many, but the curve can be quite flat with careful and intelligent use of EQ.

2. Why then should someone buy a more expensive speaker? The simple answer is that any two speakers that are carefully equalized to have virtually identical on axis responses will still not sound the same. The system's distortion characteristics, dispersion pattern (off axis performance), transient response, and many, many other performance characteristics have just as significant impact on the subjective listening experience as the on axis frequency response.


Widget

Valentin
10-22-2015, 09:11 AM
"dispersion pattern (off axis performance)"

canot be corrected via EQ That simple

Ed Zeppeli
10-22-2015, 09:44 AM
Hi 4313B,

Does that mean that almost ANY speaker can be EQualized to cover say 30Hz to 16kHz +/- 3dB.
If that is 'the case', why to spend so much on JBL (M2, DD, K2, 44, 43....) speakers instead to buy
decent pieces, coming from China, Thailand or Vietnam ??
+ DSP driven network ( example MiniDSP) and proper amplifier/

regards
ivica

If you have the time Ivica, check this out. It explained a lot to me about off-axis response and measurements relative to listeners' experience using Harman equipment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM

ivica
10-22-2015, 12:23 PM
If you have the time Ivica, check this out. It explained a lot to me about off-axis response and measurements relative to listeners' experience using Harman equipment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM

Hi Ed Zeppeli,

Thank You for the link.
If talking about the off-axis response, having in mind using cone drivers for the bass and mid-bass drivers, and horn 'loaded' compression drivers, their off-axis responses are mainly influenced with their dimensions and the horn-wall sides 'flare', but , from my experience drivers of the same size have different sound character, even they are "EQualized" applying home 'listening levels'.

regards
ivica

4313B
11-12-2015, 03:15 AM
The woofer looks very much like a 2216nd. Maybe a "passive crossover friendly" version with a lower fs?
I think 4313B mentioned that some variants of the 2216nd were coming...~ 10 grams of mass added via aquaplas on the rear of the cone reducing Fs to ~ 28 Hz along with a modified edge treatment on the cloth surround. Well controlled and very consistent with very good performance.


476Mg or D2430K? Or something new?It is the same D2430K as in the M2. The 476Mg is considerably more expensive, the system would never make the intended price point with the 476Mg.