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View Full Version : So many times, so many ways, ad nauseam.............



Wagner
09-03-2015, 01:17 PM
And I am sorry to ask it again
Polarity wiring for the L100's woofers
I am working with a late production pair using the 123A-3
The 123A-3 is a negative polarity transducer (positive voltage applied to the red terminal causes INWARD cone movement)
Most everyone here already knows this; I only reiterate this for the purposes of asking my question
I have seen the chart here provided by member "4313B" about which models (systems) are "innies" or "outies") But I have also read that it may contain an error or two:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?164-L100-Century-polarity&p=1023#post1023
(if you look at the photo below you will note that it is the HF driver wired out of phase, going by WIRE COLOR to driver ONLY and not the MF, it is also a fool proof arraignment using the male and female faston type connectors

My question is this: on this pair of L100s do I put the green wire to the red woofer terminal ("innie") or to the black terminal which would in effect make it an "outie"?

I only ask this (yet again) because I have yet to find any L100 owner's manual which does not instruct the user to attach the green wire to the red terminal (or black to black)

I am hoping that when I reassemble these it will be for the last time

I just wish the hell JBL had printed terminal COLOR ID for the DRIVERS on their tech sheets (although they did on the first version of the L100)

Thanks for your patience


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=19746&d=1161445942

This is where the confusion (continues) to kick in; looks like they attached GREEN wires to BLACK and NEG input (LX12-10), so do I adhere to the wire color coding or what! Drives me nuts:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3678&stc=1&d=1097938961

Odd
09-03-2015, 01:50 PM
66764

Wagner
09-03-2015, 02:17 PM
66764
I see that, that's why I mentioned it
But if you look at the rest of it and the photo of my actual crossover type, you will also note an error with regards to the tweeter's wiring as well as the fact that even though the wire's color is green on the first version's network and attaches to the driver's red terminal it is also attached to the BLACK input terminal

That is why I am still not certain; the INPUT terminal's color versus the actual wire's color versus the traducer's terminal color

"4313B" wrote in another thread which I cannot find that a couple of errors had been identified in that chart

I would think that wire color would rule for the purposes of the assembly line workers

Odd
09-03-2015, 02:36 PM
It's just to wire it properly then it becomes good.

Thought you were an expert on JBL

Wagner
09-03-2015, 05:31 PM
It's just to wire it properly then it becomes good.

Thought you were an expert on JBL
Don't know exactly what that line means (maybe it's a language thing)
But in other words you don't know the answer (for sure) either, best I can tell
If these boxes are wired using the somewhat standard JBL practice of black, or black stripe always going to the black traducer terminal, then this pair will be an "innie" (again, if I am following your broken English) contradicting the cheat sheet
There is nothing on the L100A (late) model tech sheet to indicate otherwise (or for that matter, the owner's manual)
Thanks for trying though

Mr. Widget
09-03-2015, 08:56 PM
I see that, that's why I mentioned it
But if you look at the rest of it and the photo of my actual crossover type, you will also note an error with regards to the tweeter's wiring as well as the fact that even though the wire's color is green on the first version's network and attaches to the driver's red terminal it is also attached to the BLACK input terminal

That is why I am still not certain; the INPUT terminal's color versus the actual wire's color versus the traducer's terminal color

"4313B" wrote in another thread which I cannot find that a couple of errors had been identified in that chart

I would think that wire color would rule for the purposes of the assembly line workersI would assume the published wiring diagram is correct. Therefore the red + terminal on the input is connected to the red + terminal on the woofer and midrange and to the - terminal of the tweeter. Green appears to be the + woofer wire color.

Since you have access to the actual networks you don't even need to rely on the color code. The woofer connects directly to the input and the mid gets connected to the L-pad with the larger cap.


Widget

Wagner
09-04-2015, 01:03 PM
I would assume the published wiring diagram is correct. Therefore the red + terminal on the input is connected to the red + terminal on the woofer and midrange and to the - terminal of the tweeter. Green appears to be the + woofer wire color.

Since you have access to the actual networks you don't even need to rely on the color code. The woofer connects directly to the input and the mid gets connected to the L-pad with the larger cap.


Widget

Good morning Mr. Widget,
Yes, that part is done and confirmed. But if you look closely, you will see that JBL changes up on the wire colors that attach to (and "leave" out to the drivers themselves from the little three lug terminal strip) The tweeter's terminal #2 on it's L-pad is "feed" by a black wire, on the mid's L-pad #2 terminal, the expected white "hot" wire. Going by more than a dozen photos, I do not think that this was an error in any way, it is also confirmed on the schematic as provided by JBL and substantiated by the little < and > symbols (correlates with the fastener types)

In short, the tweeter's RED wire wire, the one which actually plugs into the tweeter is feed by the BLACK input wire which is also the same wire which feeds the BLACK wire which ultimately goes to the woofer.

I have looked at numerous photos, that along with the fact that the tweeters wires are the only two treated with the the use of fastons and once again gives rise to my uncertainty as for woofer wire orientation.

Go with the color code protocol or the often discussed "switch 'em when dealing with the 123A-3?

IF I knew with certainty that the first wire drawn on all JBL tech sheets was in fact the conductor going to the RED terminal on all individual transducers then any and all questions regarding this subject could be put to bed

4343
09-04-2015, 04:02 PM
JBL may have wanted the box to be an "outie" so that they would not have some versions of the same line being opposite. Thus the switch of the woofer wires colors. The first schematic has the wires swapped, red input feeds black terminal on woofer. That makes it match other manufactures "absolute" polarity when used with the "innie" woofer. The second one has black input going to black terminal on the "outie" woofer, again matching everyone else, and the original L100.

I think the tweeter flip has more to do with the crossover devolving from second order to first order.

Unless your crossover does not match the diagram, trust the color code...

Wagner
09-04-2015, 05:07 PM
JBL may have wanted the box to be an "outie" so that they would not have some versions of the same line being opposite. Thus the switch of the woofer wires colors. The first schematic has the wires swapped, red input feeds black terminal on woofer. That makes it match other manufactures "absolute" polarity when used with the "innie" woofer. The second one has black input going to black terminal on the "outie" woofer, again matching everyone else, and the original L100.

I think the tweeter flip has more to do with the crossover devolving from second order to first order.

Unless your crossover does not match the diagram, trust the color code...

I hear you, but if I wire my green wire to the 123A-3's RED terminal (their most common convention) I will have an "innie" so that pretty much discredits that theory (if the chart is accurate). On the earlier model which adheres to that convention they make a damn note of it, on the oddball versions they don't I just can't understand why they didn't put terminal ID on the damn tech sheets. On the LATE model L100A the + wire (GREEN) wasn't connected to the RED SPEAKER terminal on my pair, the BLACK wire was and I have no indication that they had ever been opened. This is contrary to the sheet. Does anyone know if the top wire in the drawings at the TRANSDUCER is always the positive half of the signal? If so then the green wire should go there:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=72&stc=1&d=1052929064


Unless your crossover does not match the diagram, trust the color code...
It does, except the damn diagram doesn't indicate transducer terminal color; only the "sex" of drivers using fastons................................that's the whole of the question/uncertainty as to what is correct

Mr. Widget
09-04-2015, 08:23 PM
I'm confused. So the issue is not the network or the wiring diagram but the fact that the drivers are not clearly marked with red and black terminals or corresponding + and - symbols?


Widget

Wagner
09-05-2015, 10:56 AM
I'm confused. So the issue is not the network or the wiring diagram but the fact that the drivers are not clearly marked with red and black terminals or corresponding + and - symbols?


Widget

The network is correct and matches all photos and the technical drawings; no problems there
The tweeter is connected using male and female fastons, so no problems there (unless JBL made them)
The mids were wired using "standard" WHITE wire to RED speaker terminal and BLACK wire to BLACK speaker terminal, so no problems there (and by speaker, I mean the LE5-2 driver, NOT the system)

So now, the problem/question:
I have 123A-3 woofers which are NEGATIVE transducers
They have a RED and a BLACK spring terminal connector for wiring
The cross over assembly provides two wires for this purpose; one GREEN and one BLACK
Where does the GREEN and BLACK wire go? GREEN to RED terminal and BLACK to BLACK as is the most typical OR the other way around?

I am asking this question for the millionth time (sorry folks) as the information on the chart contradicts the results I would get if I followed it (the "innie" versus "outie" results) The closest I have ever found to a definitive answer, for years, is just make certain they are both the same and match whatever other speakers you might be running in a multi-channel set up

I also continue to be plagued with this question as I have never been able to find, or seen, any edition of the owner's manual which showed anything other than the "standard" GREEN wire to RED woofer terminal, ever

Anyone out there got one for a late late production pair? My serial # is 250934 A and another a few digits away; I would LOVE to see a diagram from JBL showing the GREEN wire going to the BLACK terminal

I want them wired the way JBL built them; they will never be part of a multi-speaker set-up or paired with a sub

So, in the shortest way possible; which WOOFER terminal gets the GREEN wire, the BLACK one or the RED one?

Thanks men for your tolerance
Thomas

This page is from an owner's manual I have never seen a complete copy of (with the YELLOW/YELLOW BLACK tweeter wiring) But it still shows GREEN wire to WOOFER RED terminal:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=50434&stc=1&d=1300063373

Mr. Widget
09-05-2015, 02:59 PM
Green to red (red system terminal and red woofer terminal) and black to black. That is what the schematic shows and your crossovers would suggest.


Widget

Wagner
09-06-2015, 07:44 AM
Green to red (red system terminal and red woofer terminal) and black to black. That is what the schematic shows and your crossovers would suggest.


Widget
Thank you Mr. Widget
That schematic is one I found here though; I have no manual that actually came with the pair I am working on
(notice those yellow and yellow with black stripe wires to the the tweeter)
I actually have red and black wires to my tweeters

If I do follow the "conventional convention" as you suggest, then my pair will be an "innie" and contradict the "cheat sheet"

That is what this has all been about and lead to me asking this well worn question yet again (and, because of the dozen or so references I have read here, in multiple threads, in which people have said "but the 123A-3 is a negative driver so you need to switch your wires" when ever the late production versions were up for discussion

Mr. Widget
09-06-2015, 09:41 AM
That is what this has all been about and lead to me asking this well worn question yet again (and, because of the dozen or so references I have read here, in multiple threads, in which people have said "but the 123A-3 is a negative driver so you need to switch your wires") when ever the late production versions were up for discussionI think my L100s are the same series and the woofers are likely due for a rotation. I'll let you know what I find.


Widget

Wagner
09-06-2015, 10:11 AM
I think my L100s are the same series and the woofers are likely due for a rotation. I'll let you know what I find.


Widget
That would be great, thank you!
This tech sheet is an accurate reflection of the speakers I own, correct in every detail: wire colors and driver compliment.................except for the missing transducer terminal ID colors! :)

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100A%20LATE%20ts.pdf

SEAWOLF97
09-06-2015, 10:39 AM
before LHF , when confronted with this issue, my rule of thumb was ... any color that contained any black went to the BLACK terminal , whatever was left went to RED.

don't recall ever having any problems with that ..

Wagner
09-06-2015, 05:00 PM
before LHF , when confronted with this issue, my rule of thumb was ... any color that contained any black went to the BLACK terminal , whatever was left went to RED.

don't recall ever having any problems with that ..
You're right, and that will surely work
You've just described their "most of the time" standard wiring convention
It's just the positive versus negative traducer thing that's the rub with this one and it only became an issue in my mind after reading about it in about 100 threads
That late production model L100As using the 123A-3 were to be treated differently
My issue is that even though I've seen it written a million times I've yet to find definitive proof that that is in fact the case (except for "4313B"'s data reference sheet)
Doesn't anyone with a pair of L100s with a serial number above 206723 A have the manual that actually came with their speakers?

Hard to believe that almost everyone relies on that one edition that's everywhere considering about a bazillion pairs of L100s were sold over the years; I've searched for a final edition copy to buy but can't find one through the usual outlets (or a copy of the owner's manual for the original vertical version)

SEAWOLF97
09-06-2015, 06:22 PM
Hard to believe that almost everyone relies on that one edition that's everywhere considering about a bazillion pairs of L100s were sold over the years;

1969 L-100, a consumer version of the 4311 is launched this would sell over 125,000 pairs in the 70s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JBL

Wagner
09-06-2015, 08:05 PM
1969 L-100, a consumer version of the 4311 is launched this would sell over 125,000 pairs in the 70s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JBL
I think it's Pappy was actually the 4310 and the L100 debuted at the 1970 Chicago CES...regardless, and nitpicking aside, where in the hell are all of the various incarnations of the damn owner's manuals? ;)

Mr. Widget
09-07-2015, 07:54 PM
Apparently my L100s are earlier versions so so can't help there. I'll suggest again that I think you should go green to the positive woofer terminal, but I know you want some type of definitive documentation.


Widget

Wagner
09-08-2015, 01:33 PM
Apparently my L100s are earlier versions so so can't help there. I'll suggest again that I think you should go green to the positive woofer terminal, but I know you want some type of definitive documentation.


Widget
Thank you Mr. Widget for your efforts
All I want is for them to be correctly connected
The only reason I even have the question is that there are at least 10 threads here on the specific topic and none of them offer a definitive answer as well as the fact that they at times conflict along with the "chart"
(and of course I can't find any of them right at the moment)
I have also read the statement, made by a well respected and knowledgeable member here that ALL L100s should be "outies"

If I put these back together Green wire to Red terminal then I'm going to have a pair of "innies"

I just finished applying my last coat of lacquer on the front baffles today...............when I put these back together I want them to be factory correct and hopefully back together for the last time (at least for what's left of my lifetime) and negating the need for touch ups

I am not obsessing (at least I don't think I am); I just find it incredibly frustrating that I cannot find a definitive answer

Wagner
09-11-2015, 12:47 PM
Last comment and then I'll just have to go with something:
It puzzles me a great deal that the LE5-2 is a NEGATIVE transducer and on the L100A (late model) that I am working with, it is wired observing "convention"; WHITE to RED terminal (on the driver) and BLACK to BLACK (which is in fact system input NEG (BLACK) and correlates with the schematic as well as the box

Wired as indicated by the schematic and JBL color convention, the LE5-2 will behave as is expected, as an "innie"

This would put it out of phase with a woofer we are wiring to be an "outie", but more importantly than that, running wide open with a full content signal
By doing this, aren't we introducing cancellation problems?
There has to be some overlap between those two drivers

To further complicate matters, the long assumed "out of phase" LE25, with the BLACK wire coming off the L-pad and terminating at the tweeter with the female faston on the end of the BLACK wire is in fact carrying the positive half of the signal............if you check one of these LE25s you will see that they have reversed their own wiring convention here, color wise and the LE25 is in fact behaving as an "outie"

If we assume that reversing the color codes at the woofer to get "outie" behavior and obviously hook up the tweeter with the factory fastons (which agree 100% with the schematic) then it's the MID that's out of phase with the rest of the system....................and I don't get it
Maybe I'm too ignorant (which IS true) or maybe this is why L100s sound like shit to so many..............they've been wired incorrectly for 40+ years? :dont-know: :)

OR, is the LE5-2 180 degrees out of absolute polarity by design? (I told you/admitted I was ignorant)

hjames
09-11-2015, 01:25 PM
I had a similar issue with my 4341 4 way monitors. The original crossover had been hacked and I wanted to get it right.
Bo putnam told me that the correct function was to have the woofer 'reverse polarity" connected - I believe that effected a sharper cutoff on the crossover between drivers it and the mid-bass driver. I gather it was done on a number of other models for that same effect.




Last comment and then I'll just have to go with something:
It puzzles me a great deal that the LE5-2 is a NEGATIVE transducer and on the L100A (late model) that I am working with, it is wired observing "convention"; WHITE to RED terminal (on the driver) and BLACK to BLACK (which is in fact system input NEG (BLACK) and correlates with the schematic as well as the box

Wired as indicated by the schematic and JBL color convention, the LE5-2 will behave as is expected, as an "innie"

This would put it out of phase with a woofer we are wiring to be an "outie", but more importantly than that, running wide open with a full content signal
By doing this, aren't we introducing cancellation problems?
There has to be some overlap between those two drivers

To further complicate matters, the long assumed "out of phase" LE25, with the BLACK wire coming off the L-pad and terminating at the tweeter with the female faston on the end of the BLACK wire is in fact carrying the positive half of the signal............if you check one of these LE25s you will see that they have reversed their own wiring convention here, color wise and the LE25 is in fact behaving as an "outie"

If we assume that reversing the color codes at the woofer to get "outie" behavior and obviously hook up the tweeter with the factory fastons (which agree 100% with the schematic) then it's the MID that's out of phase with the rest of the system....................and I don't get it
Maybe I'm too ignorant (which IS true) or maybe this is why L100s sound like shit to so many..............they've been wired incorrectly for 40+ years? :dont-know: :)

OR, is the LE5-2 180 degrees out of absolute polarity by design? (I told you/admitted I was ignorant)

Mr. Widget
09-11-2015, 08:23 PM
It puzzles me a great deal that the LE5-2 is.... It is not uncommon at all for midrange drivers or tweeters to be wired "out of phase" in systems from all manufacturers. It is done sometimes because in these systems there is better overall integration near the crossover and this is more audible than having the rest of the bandpass in phase.


Widget

tonester
09-13-2015, 01:53 PM
I'm running up against the same with a recently acquired pair of what I think are L100A Late Model with the puzzling problem of how to connect 2 different LF Drivers, one is 123A-1 (pos Pol.) the other is what i assume is the original 123A-3 (neg Pol.). When I pulled them out to see what I had I found that both black leads were connected to black speaker posts.
My question to the members here who are in the know; can I just simply connect both woofers and test to see that the polarity matches, meaning that both speakers move in the same direction? Does it matter which direction it moves?
thanks for any help here. BTW, its not important for me to know WHY they work the way they do when connected correctly. It is important to know HOW to connect them.
Last comment and then I'll just have to go with something:
It puzzles me a great deal that the LE5-2 is a NEGATIVE transducer and on the L100A (late model) that I am working with, it is wired observing "convention"; WHITE to RED terminal (on the driver) and BLACK to BLACK (which is in fact system input NEG (BLACK) and correlates with the schematic as well as the box

Wired as indicated by the schematic and JBL color convention, the LE5-2 will behave as is expected, as an "innie"

This would put it out of phase with a woofer we are wiring to be an "outie", but more importantly than that, running wide open with a full content signal
By doing this, aren't we introducing cancellation problems?
There has to be some overlap between those two drivers

To further complicate matters, the long assumed "out of phase" LE25, with the BLACK wire coming off the L-pad and terminating at the tweeter with the female faston on the end of the BLACK wire is in fact carrying the positive half of the signal............if you check one of these LE25s you will see that they have reversed their own wiring convention here, color wise and the LE25 is in fact behaving as an "outie"

If we assume that reversing the color codes at the woofer to get "outie" behavior and obviously hook up the tweeter with the factory fastons (which agree 100% with the schematic) then it's the MID that's out of phase with the rest of the system....................and I don't get it
Maybe I'm too ignorant (which IS true) or maybe this is why L100s sound like shit to so many..............they've been wired incorrectly for 40+ years? :dont-know: :)

OR, is the LE5-2 180 degrees out of absolute polarity by design? (I told you/admitted I was ignorant)

Wagner
09-13-2015, 06:45 PM
I'm running up against the same with a recently acquired pair of what I think are L100A Late Model with the puzzling problem of how to connect 2 different LF Drivers, one is 123A-1 (pos Pol.) the other is what i assume is the original 123A-3 (neg Pol.). When I pulled them out to see what I had I found that both black leads were connected to black speaker posts.
My question to the members here who are in the know; can I just simply connect both woofers and test to see that the polarity matches, meaning that both speakers move in the same direction? Does it matter which direction it moves?
thanks for any help here. BTW, its not important for me to know WHY they work the way they do when connected correctly. It is important to know HOW to connect them.
Both systems (woofers) need to behave the same to sound correct
I finally settled on the "outie" version for my pair
So, attach the GREEN wire to the BLACK terminal on the 123A-3 and attach the Green wire to the RED terminal on your 123A-1
They both should behave as "outies" this way if everything else in the box is as it should be; check with a 1.5 volt battery before you button everything all back up (check from the cabinet input terminals)

If for some reason you want your woofers to behave as "innies" simply reverse the above

I finally found several of the ancient threads with a great deal of input from Evan and others and that along with "4313B"'s very helpful chart, convinced me to go with and "outie" system for the late model

I have yet to find an owner's manual SPECIFIC to my late model/serial number pair, but I did find the GREEN to BLACK for the 123A-3 in enough places to figure it was the safe and correct bet (that the late model L100 should be an "outie" woofer player)

tonester
09-14-2015, 09:56 AM
Thank you for the clarification. I will test to get the polarity to push and connect the drivers.
Both systems (woofers) need to behave the same to sound correct
I finally settled on the "outie" version for my pair
So, attach the GREEN wire to the BLACK terminal on the 123A-3 and attach the Green wire to the RED terminal on your 123A-1
They both should behave as "outies" this way if everything else in the box is as it should be; check with a 1.5 volt battery before you button everything all back up (check from the cabinet input terminals)

If for some reason you want your woofers to behave as "innies" simply reverse the above

I finally found several of the ancient threads with a great deal of input from Evan and others and that along with "4313B"'s very helpful chart, convinced me to go with and "outie" system for the late model

I have yet to find an owner's manual SPECIFIC to my late model/serial number pair, but I did find the GREEN to BLACK for the 123A-3 in enough places to figure it was the safe and correct bet (that the late model L100 should be an "outie" woofer player)

Wagner
09-14-2015, 10:57 AM
Apparently my L100s are earlier versions so so can't help there. I'll suggest again that I think you should go green to the positive woofer terminal, but I know you want some type of definitive documentation.


Widget

Time flies when you're having fun:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?9-JBL-Polarity-Convention/page3

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?2631-Woofer-diff

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?17888-Internal-wiring-on-L100A-is-incorrect

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?19598-need-help-for-L100-123A-3-connection

tonester
10-08-2015, 12:07 PM
I found another 123A-3 neg polarity speaker to match my other 123A-3. Should they be connected black wire to red post to keep them in correct phase with midrange? It appears that late L100A are supposed to be black to red post looking at schematic, irregardless of polarity direction.
Time flies when you're having fun:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?9-JBL-Polarity-Convention/page3

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?2631-Woofer-diff

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?17888-Internal-wiring-on-L100A-is-incorrect

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?19598-need-help-for-L100-123A-3-connection

grumpy
10-08-2015, 03:13 PM
I would think so. There's so much audible overlap between the drivers
with such a low slope crossover that I'd think you would want them to
be acoustically in phase... irregardless.

Wagner
10-09-2015, 08:29 PM
I found another 123A-3 neg polarity speaker to match my other 123A-3. Should they be connected black wire to red post to keep them in correct phase with midrange? It appears that late L100A are supposed to be black to red post looking at schematic, irregardless of polarity direction.
I don't know what speaker(s) you have.

Right off the top of my head I can't remember if the LE5-2 mid-range driver is a positive or negative driver............

BUT, it makes NO difference IF you have either the L100A or L100A (late) with the N100 network working from what we have

Both tech sheets show them to be EXACTLY the same EXCEPT for the woofer used and an "out of thin air" polarity change between models as indicated by JBL to address the "I have no fu&king idea" part

And I say "out of thin air" because NOTHING ELSE IS SHOWN to be different.

Is WOOFER CONE EXCURSION DIRECTION all that defines the difference between an L100A and an L100A (Late) model? Because with what data we have that would APPEAR to be the case.

And that is why this stupid ass question which has never been answered still irritates the shit out of me.

I can tell you this much and it coincides with how my L100A (Late) production L100s were factory wired to the LE5-2s, the owner's manual illustration above and (we assume) the tech sheet(s), UNLESS someone or some tech tampered with them:

The WHITE WIRE coming off the L-pad #2 lug is to be attached to the RED terminal of the LE5-2, on BOTH variants, again, IF, the chart is correct AND the illustration in the one and only owner's manual there seems to be in circulation applies to all models with regards to the LE5-2 mid-range driver as BOTH tech sheets are IDENTICAL sans the woofers.

But I reiterate, the tech sheets do not indicate TRANSDUCER terminal color code, ONLY wire colors from input terminals through the entire network until we get to the business end of things where with the exception of the tweeter's fastons, your guess is as good as mine as for original intent and we are back to relying on how JBL did it "most of the time" with anything wirewise BLACK going to BLACK terminals.

We simply have to assume it is correct (the nice owner's manual illustration) and runs consistently true through ALL incarnations of the L100 (reflects accurately that they were all assembled this way) But I do not KNOW this to be a FACT:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100A%20ts.pdf

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100A%20LATE%20ts.pdf

And this is the part that (still) pisses me off. Why in the world are there TWO versions of the SAME speaker identical in EVERY aspect except woofer model/VC polarity?

Actually, NOT EVEN THAT as the only FUNCTIONAL change to the system, again assuming our data to be correct, was the direction of woofer cone movement. (technical improvements/refinements between the two woofers notwithstanding)

Was a subjective decision made that wiring the LATE L100A to be an "outie" just sounded "better" than the standard L100A, which going by those tech sheets above is absolutely the ONLY difference between the two systems.

OR are we missing a part of this puzzle still?

I understand that going from the 123A-1 to the 123A-3 that the VC polarity "issue" would need to be addressed, obviously, their respective behavior is different, but as your question DOES suggest, then we have in fact CHANGED the relationship between the WOOFER and the MID as everything else remains EXACTLY the same...................unless?

I mean how fu&king hard would it have been to expend 3 more molecules of black ink and identify the actual TRANSDUCER'S TERMINALS?

This bull shit L100 wiring hubbub has exacerbated me for too god damned long now..............I really wish I could find a manual that reflects what's ACTUALLY in MY specific pair and or a COMPLETE system schematic complete with the small detail of which fi&king TRANSDUCER terminal to use with which wire. I DON'T HAVE ANY YELLOW WIRES!

Based on what we do know combined with what we have to assume, wire as described above because apparently JBL didn't seem to think it mattered...............or did they?

I don't know; I have mine wired with the white #2 L-pad lug wire to the red terminal on the LE5-2

It's just incomprehensible to me that such a fundamental piece of information regarding what is possibly THE most iconic home loudspeaker system of all times is so elusive, in ANY and ALL of it's variations

Very frustrating, especially when I can (fairly easily) find out how many times the production line workers took a piss during the 8:00 AM Klipsch Heresy piece of crap shift run, on any given day back in August 1977 if I really needed too.......................and probably, with just a little extra effort, what P.W.K had for lunch that day :banghead:

Wagner
10-09-2015, 08:51 PM
Sorry for sharing my frustrations all over you......it's just I have put about 100 hours into these as well as quite a few hours in others, restoring them cosmetically to the Nth degree and have never known with absolute certainty if some of them were wired correctly.

There IS something missing

1audiohack
10-10-2015, 07:44 AM
I am a bit puzled by all of this.

I don't have a pair of these and likely never will so I have done no homework on the subject but I can't help to wonder, if there is no solid schematic to go from, has no one ever set up and taken proper measurements of these and settled the polarity thing objectively? How hard could it possibly be?

Don't get me wrong, I am not beating on anyone but one would think that long before now this would have been settled via measurement.

I suppose that if you can't tell a difference by ear then the question remains is what does it really matter?

Barry.

SEAWOLF97
10-10-2015, 09:13 AM
I am a bit puzled by all of this.
I suppose that if you can't tell a difference by ear then the question remains is what does it really matter?

Barry.

I kinda agree with the above , but will play DA for a bit.

IF the L-100A was the last of that line , AND the 4311B is the last of it's line AND they are supposedly identical , then why not check the latter to see how it's wired ?

Wagner
10-10-2015, 10:29 AM
I kinda agree with the above , but will play DA for a bit.

IF the L-100A was the last of that line , AND the 4311B is the last of it's line AND they are supposedly identical , then why not check the latter to see how it's wired ?


Understood, makes good common sense, and THANKS for the thought; may have figured this out using your suggestion.

BUT, there are TWO L100As as I so arduously pointed out above and they disagree with one another based on what "we" (I) have (or don't have). And the disagreement appears (based on what we have) only to be CONE EXCURSION DIRECTION brought on by the wiring switch at the woofers?

I have already pointed it out 5 ways now, if the 123A-3 were wired according to "the convention" then it would behave exactly as the 123A-1 L100A versions. And that would make sense too from a functional and multi-system systems (boxes) compatibility perspective too.

I am certain that the L100A and the L100A (Late) models coexisted frequently in the inventories and show room set ups at JBL dealers in the late '70s. I know for a fact that the JBL dealer in my small hometown sold enough L100s that there would have most definitely been inventory overlap, without question.

I would also think that to make one an "innie" and the other an "outie" when they were so close together and there were also other JBL "innie" models sharing the same space for demos that this would have posed a fairly substantial issue. Remember too that this was the era of "Quadraphonic Sound" so I can easily imagine more than a few demos being done with 4 JBL L100s and the quad receivers of the day. Other than serial #s there is nothing on the outside of an "A" or an "A" (Late) to distinguish the two. It just does not add up and is why I continue to chew on this bone.

Been having this one for a while now:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34721-JBL-4311-behaviour-nomal-or-faulty-units

The 4311B tech sheet also seems to adhere to that illustration from the owner's manual for the L100A with the yellow tweeter wires, which contradicts the understanding of how to treat a 123A-3, but would anecdotally support the idea that that manual does apply to the final run based on those yellow wires (aka, the 123A-3/2213H equipped examples). You would think that a wire color reversal/departure from convention would be to make the current L100s "match" those that had just come before them, being as NOTHING else was changed driver compliment and networkwise. Only the technical refinements and VC polarity of the woofer.

I mean, an awful lot of (consumer) type folks would have to be "consulting" their authorized JBL dealers as the manual does briefly suggest if memory serves. And studio/pro sound guys having to pull down systems to switch woofer wires around? Crazy! Why?

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio%20Monitor%20Series/4311B.pdf
But at least the 4311B's schematic does indicate transducer terminals with a + and -. Is a 2213H exactly the same driver as a 123A-3? Terminal colors, "innie", "outie", all of that?

As for why it matters? I would like to know that my boxes are wired as the original design was intended, without any guess work or assumptions.

If a schematic could be found which indicated TRANSDUCER terminal ID by color and or cone movement then this one could be put to bed forever.

But I think I may finally understand what's going on. The owner's manual illustration translates well to the one for the 4311B. They jive except for the wire colors used and what wire goes where to the woofer (the terminal ID, L100 sheets just choose to omit that as previously bitched about).

As mentioned, the 4311B's tech sheet is more complete and DOES included terminal ID on the drivers themselves and clearly shows the "+" terminal of the woofer being fed by a SOILD GREEN wire which originates at the BLACK or NEGATIVE side of the NETWORK input. All has been revealed with that one!

Obviously JBL got their color convention back on track with the 4311B's networks and possibly those N100s that are shown in that ubiquitous owner's manual. Yea! May have a plausible answer once and for all (except that nagging "why" part)! And what about our new design regarding the woofer/mids relationship?

So, I am prepared to speculate that JBL was using up the hundreds or maybe even thousand of N100s that they had on hand, already assembled with the conventional colors soldered in place and simply making the wire "switch" to accommodate the new woofers (123A-3) and just never committed that change over period/cluster of boxes built and shipped, to print. All makes perfect sense and actually, an "intermediate" version of the manual could have possibly screwed up/confused things even more, especially on the consumer end (folks who don't generally receive service bulletins).

So, I am ALMOST happy that my current pair is correct (based on the 4311B's tech sheet), except for the nagging question why?
Why go from the "innie" to an "outie" with no other apparent changes?

We are still changing the phase relationship with the LE5-2 as well, even if the 4311B's sheet is the final word.

Still don't get it. If we're going to change the woofer/mid relationship like that, shouldn't there have been an adjustment made there too?

Lot of folks say that to their ears the last incarnation sounds the best, maybe that's it? But others say it's the original verticals with a real network (I personally take that one with a grain of salt, network or not, just listen to the LE20 beside an LE25). But even from start to finish, the mid-range stands alone! Untouched baby!

I just want to know.

rusty jefferson
10-11-2015, 03:21 PM
I'm surprised there hasn't some input from folks who are original owners, know their pair hasn't been opened, and based on the battery test from the binding posts can report on cone movement. Perhaps a thread with a poll? List the serial number, and woofer direction with the battery test, and whether you're confident your pair hasn't been opened. Come on, help a brother out.

Wagner
10-14-2015, 11:34 AM
I'm surprised there hasn't some input from folks who are original owners, know their pair hasn't been opened, and based on the battery test from the binding posts can report on cone movement. Perhaps a thread with a poll? List the serial number, and woofer direction with the battery test, and whether you're confident your pair hasn't been opened. Come on, help a brother out.
I agree and I am the one that started it all (again).
Member "4313B" basically did that with the chart he created and presented here ages ago, but I do not know the source of the data; tech sheets or actual speakers. There are also some errors on that sheet as well that do not relate to the woofers.

I have operated on the assumption that the woofer parts of it were accurate.

In the process however, the question that's big in my mind and still gives rise to wonder what's "right" is the new model designation by essentially just changing the woofer's cone excursion? They could have just as easily wired the new 123A-3 in a way that would be consistent with the version that came before it.
And leaving the mid the same throughout the line?
What was the thought process?

As I already said, I finally settled on the "outie" woofer convention and adhered to the WHITE wire to RED terminal on the LE5-2, a la the 4311B but without the corresponding colors to really validate things. Still lines up with the "anything with BLACK on it" rule though and then breaks it; that would validate the chart.

So, I'll just use them like that but still won't know what's "right".................and why.

1audiohack
10-19-2015, 09:53 PM
I have never had any of these little guys but as luck would have it, (not my good luck) a guy called me out of the blue, I mean I didn't even recognize the name of the guy who gave this guy my number, anyway, where was I, oh yeah this guy calls and tells me that he has four 4312's that he needs to get made right. He says "I have a bunch of spare parts too." Should have be a warning.

I am a sucker to work on and listen to nearly any (real?) JBL so I end up with a project that I swore I wouldn't spend more than a half a day on and that part I actually managed.

A quick plug in with pink noise and none of them fully work. I just shelled out all the drivers and swept them individually and ended up with just enough to make a pair, kinda, if you don't mind mixing AlNiCo and Ferrite drivers.

So we get to the polarity question and boy does the frequency response look like hell if you get the woofer wrong. Well, you better measure because one of these boxes is green/black to red and the other is green to red.

I will post sweep pics tomorrow in hopes to help, add to the confusion haha.

These sound better than I thought they would. Suprize.

Barry.

Wagner
10-20-2015, 11:37 AM
I have never had any of these little guys but as luck would have it, (not my good luck) a guy called me out of the blue, I mean I didn't even recognize the name of the guy who gave this guy my number, anyway, where was I, oh yeah this guy calls and tells me that he has four 4312's that he needs to get made right. He says "I have a bunch of spare parts too." Should have be a warning.

I am a sucker to work on and listen to nearly any (real?) JBL so I end up with a project that I swore I wouldn't spend more than a half a day on and that part I actually managed.

A quick plug in with pink noise and none of them fully work. I just shelled out all the drivers and swept them individually and ended up with just enough to make a pair, kinda, if you don't mind mixing AlNiCo and Ferrite drivers.

So we get to the polarity question and boy does the frequency response look like hell if you get the woofer wrong. Well, you better measure because one of these boxes is green/black to red and the other is green to red.

I will post sweep pics tomorrow in hopes to help, add to the confusion haha.

These sound better than I thought they would. Suprize.

Barry.
Sounds good!
But here we go again; no ambiguity with the 4312 tech sheet, they identify the terminals clearly:
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio%20Monitor%20Series/4312LR.pdf
As with the 4311B, you can see that even though they (the woofers) were wired in "reverse" from the INPUT, JBL did get back on track with the wiring color code convention. I think now for sure that the L100A hubbub was due to the fact that they were using up already assembled N100s that HAD BEEN going into boxes that didn't need the switch.

From a JBL Technical Service Bulletin:
"Control Contractor Series Studio Monitors: All 4300-Series models (except models 4311 and 4312L, R) are negative. The following models are negative: 4406, 4408L, R, 4410L, R 4412L, R, 4425L, R 4430L, R, 435L, R. The following models are positive: 4206, 4208, 4311, 4312L, R, 4408A-L, R 4410A-L, R, 4412A-L, R 6208, DMS-1 LSR4300-Series, LSR-Series LSR6300-Series"

Like the fact too that they finally addressed the mirrored image dealio with this incarnation as well. Sure built and sold a whole lot of these sucky, two cap crossover speakers for a really long time, din't they?!:

http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/jbl-4312-376092.jpg

1audiohack
10-20-2015, 10:05 PM
Here is a couple of measurement pics. The first is the sophisticated crossover driven with a D45 and measured with an 8.2 Ohm resistor on the individual outputs and the voltage measured at the load.

The second is the complete speaker measured on it's back on a corner of the bench with the mic 2 feet strait above the port in between the mid and tweet. Both presence / absence knobs at 12: O'clock or centered on #5.

The white line is with all the drivers wired for forward motion with positive voltage applied and validated via impulse measurement. Not bad huh?

The yellow line is with only the woofer wired reverse polarity, the tweet and mid left forward, yuck.

I would seem that if there was a definitive wiring schematic for all of these in their variations it would have shown up by now no?

I submit that if you don't have a way to measure that you just will never know for sure what you have. Looking at the Reverse Polarity magnitude measurement you would sure think that one could hear that.

Hope this helps,
Barry.

Wagner
10-21-2015, 06:31 AM
The yellow line is with only the woofer wired reverse polarity, the tweet and mid left forward, yuck.
Wow, thanks Barry!

I do not understand what the sentence above means, or just exactly what you have going on when you're taking your measurements

How about just posting the wiring scheme used on the whole system that gave you the best results?

Thanks for the extraordinary efforts! :yes:

1audiohack
10-21-2015, 09:45 AM
Hi;

The wires in this box are all terminated with male and female spade connectors in the mid's and tweets and the drivers are not polarity marked.

One box has a 2213H and the other a 2212 and they are polarity different from each other so I don't have an answer for the tracer positive or negative question.

The second measurement screen shot is the near field on axis frequency response of the aggregate 4312 system.

The white trace is with all drivers wired where positive voltage gives positive / forward cone motion. +++

The yellow trace is with the woofer wired where positive voltage gives negative / inward cone motion while the mid and tweet remain. -++

Side note: I have a dozen 2227's, all have JBL cones in them, one of them is polarity inverse to the other 11. A check with a compass tells me the magnet is flipped. This shit will drive you nuts! You just can't assume anything is correct. Measure, test and validate is all you can do.

~If I have misunderstood your question and or completely failed to answer it, try me again. :)

All the best,
Barry.

Wagner
10-21-2015, 12:45 PM
Hi;

The wires in this box are all terminated with male and female spade connectors in the mid's and tweets and the drivers are not polarity marked.

One box has a 2213H and the other a 2212 and they are polarity different from each other so I don't have an answer for the tracer positive or negative question.

The second measurement screen shot is the near field on axis frequency response of the aggregate 4312 system.

The white trace is with all drivers wired where positive voltage gives positive / forward cone motion. +++

The yellow trace is with the woofer wired where positive voltage gives negative / inward cone motion while the mid and tweet remain. -++

Side note: I have a dozen 2227's, all have JBL cones in them, one of them is polarity inverse to the other 11. A check with a compass tells me the magnet is flipped. This shit will drive you nuts! You just can't assume anything is correct. Measure, test and validate is all you can do.

~If I have misunderstood your question and or completely failed to answer it, try me again. :)

All the best,
Barry.
Hi Barry,
I want to know the correct way, without ANY doubt, confusion, assumptions, extrapolations, deductive reasoning or misunderstandings, how to wire my pair of LATE production JBL L100As with the driver compliment that I possess in mine.

The way the designer(s) of the system INTENDED for it to be wired when it left the JBL factory back in the 1970s, regardless of how things measure or sound for you or anyone today.

Secondarily, I would also like to know, is it indeed a fact that the only difference between the L100A and the L100A (Late) is cone woofer excursion and is in fact the wiring to the mid driver (LE5-2) supposed to be the same throughout the entire line up (all incarnations) of the JBL L100, for both "innie" and "outie" wired cabinets?

Those are my questions but the first one is the MOST important (the one I really care about).

Thank you for your help and interest, very kind and thoughtful of you!
Thomas

1audiohack
10-21-2015, 01:45 PM
Hi Thomas;

I get that and truly wish that I could find that for you, but I can not.

I do know that the guys at JBL do / did in fact measure and I am certain that they would opt for the white line. :)

I wish you all the best in your quest, It would sure as hell be nice to put this to bed once and for all.

Barry.

Wagner
10-21-2015, 02:00 PM
Hi Thomas;

I get that and truly wish that I could find that for you, but I can not.

I do know that the guys at JBL do / did in fact measure and I am certain that they would opt for the white line. :)

I wish you all the best in your quest, It would sure as hell be nice to put this to bed once and for all.

Barry.
Agreed
So, tell me each wire color I need to attach to which terminal color on each transducer (because I will admit I can't understand what it is you are telling me that you did)
My L100A (Late) have N100 networks with the RED and Black network input wires to the network
My driver compliment is:
123A-3
LE5-2
LE25
Here is an accurate schematic, sans terminal ID:
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100A%20LATE%20ts.pdf
Everything is correct that is shown, obviously you can see with your eyes that they don't indicate traducer hook up polarity (terminal ID)

Now, tell me EXACTLY how to hook it up, which wire goes where and which COLOR goes where for BOTH the wires AND the transducer terminals.
Also, please provide exact 1.5V battery test results for verification so that we're both talking the same thing when we say "positive" and "negative" for example
Then I might take these apart again and try it (to get your response curve) and see if they sound any better

1audiohack
10-21-2015, 03:30 PM
That I can do. I will get back into it tonight and report.

1audiohack
10-22-2015, 08:27 PM
Hi Thomas;

This is what I did with these 4312's to achieve the frequency response showed in white. In the sketch I showed the black input wire outside the crossover for clarity. In the crossover the black wire is simply connected to the plain yellow wire, the white wire with the black tracer and the plain green wire.

I hadn't followed this through the first time I had the boxes apart as the wires were polarized via male and female terminations and the drivers were not marked for polarity so what I missed was the fact that the midrange is wired reverse polarity from the factory and as tested.

The LE25-2's are polarity positive on the male spade of the tweeter. I measured this via impulse response and verified it with a 1.5V battery and a dial indicator on the dust cap. This only gives about 0.0045" cone movement for those curious folks who don't want to DC drive a tweeter that you can't replace. 9V? About 0.030"! :)

The LE5-12 (ferrite) is also positive on the male spade moves the cone outward on the mid, the LE5 AlNiCo polarity is positive to black moves the cone outward. Also verified by impulse and battery

As said before the 2213H is positive to black moves the cone outward and the Alnico 2212 is positive to red moves the cone outward so the woofers you just have to check.

All the best,
Barry.

Wagner
10-23-2015, 08:24 AM
Hi Thomas;

This is what I did with these 4312's to achieve the frequency response showed in white. In the sketch I showed the black input wire outside the crossover for clarity. In the crossover the black wire is simply connected to the plain yellow wire, the white wire with the black tracer and the plain green wire.

I hadn't followed this through the first time I had the boxes apart as the wires were polarized via male and female terminations and the drivers were not marked for polarity so what I missed was the fact that the midrange is wired reverse polarity from the factory and as tested.

The LE25-2's are polarity positive on the male spade of the tweeter. I measured this via impulse response and verified it with a 1.5V battery and a dial indicator on the dust cap. This only gives about 0.0045" cone movement for those curious folks who don't want to DC drive a tweeter that you can't replace. 9V? About 0.030"! :)

The LE5-12 (ferrite) is also positive on the male spade moves the cone outward on the mid, the LE5 AlNiCo polarity is positive to black moves the cone outward. Also verified by impulse and battery

As said before the 2213H is positive to black moves the cone outward and the Alnico 2212 is positive to red moves the cone outward so the woofers you just have to check.

All the best,
Barry.
Thank you Barry!
So, if I am understanding what you you did, did you switch the connections at the the LE5? Or the LE25? Or both?
I have never contemplated the LE25's wiring connections on my pair as they are foolproof, male and female fastons, so I don't know for sure which way the cone moves on mine.

The problem (still) is that the wire COLORS are the source of the confusion.
Did you cut off or move fastons to preserve signal flow through the network and effect your experiment/measurements? I ask this as the later LE5 were the M/F faston types.

If I am reading this correctly, what you are are showing is the "stock" network with the "adjustments" made at the transducers. And then, best I can tell, the only change made was switching the LE5's hookup?

Your LE5s are playing out of phase with the woofers now, best I can tell, which JBL DID do with the early version and then changed it? (see the million posts and head scratching above!)
The LE5 is shown as receiving the POS signal (for outward movement) on every stinking L100 schematic I can find, regardless of woofer wiring/polarity.

I cannot find a hard confirmation that the early LE5-2 was a POS transducer or not, but all information would seem to indicate that it was POS (see below)

But don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with your results, just bewildered still.

As I already figured out, JBL finally got back on track with their wiring COLOR convention for the purposes of assembly, even when those colors didn't always correlate with the POS or NEG input signals.
Most notably, the BLACK (wire) to RED (transducer) switch eliminated at the woofer terminals (123A-3/2213H) as indicated with the 4311B forward.
AND the tweeter wiring. Although still wired "out of phase" the wire COLOR was the right one for the transducer's TERMINAL markings.

Since your LE5 is now an "innie" and your woofers are "outies" depending on wiring choice, your scheme appears to be a contradiction of the 4311B and the 4312 tech sheets and schematics.

With all these late versions, if the data is correct, the mid is always wired with POS (WHITE wire) signal to RED resulting in an outward cone movement, (REGARDLESS OF HOW HE WOOFER IS WIRED TO BEHAVE) and the tech sheets all indicate that it is a POS polarity transducer.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?5706-The-LE5-Matrix

Big part of what continues to drive me crazy with this; it makes no sense, the back and forth between models. (models with the identical network)

I have no problem with this if it sounds better!

On my "transitional" N100s, the non conventional wire color switch was made on Lug#2 on the L-pad(s). As previously written and confirmed with a 100 photos, JBL soldered a BLACK wire to the #2 lug on the LE25's L-pad, instead of the RED or later on, the YELLOW. My drivers are all the old Alnico with the push connectors except for the tweeters.

So, does the BLACK INPUT wire on your boxes only connect with the network(s) at the #1 L-pad lug feed and the wire which ultimately makes it to the woofer?

1audiohack
10-23-2015, 09:37 AM
Good morning Thomas;

The four 4312 I had here also have the fool proof fastons and all four are alike so like you I assume that they are the way JBL made them.

I did not dig into the crossover wiring at all since the two boxes I was able to complete had no cap or pot issues. I determined the black panel input connection path via an Ohm meter. Once that was established I determined the driver polarity to figure out which were wired forward or reverse. This then in my mind left the final question, the one that could not be readily answered via wire terminations being which way is the woofer supposed to be wired? This I answered, for myself anyway via the frequency response measurements.


[QUOTE] If I am reading this correctly, what you are showing is the "stock" network with the "adjustments" made at the transducers. And then, best I can tell, the only change made was switching the LE5's hookup? And still puzzled there as the LE5 is a NEG transducer (I thought) so the cone movement should be outward (if I am understanding what you have drawn)? [QUOTE]

I did not switch the tweeter or midrange connections in any way. The "white line" measurement was made with the woofer wired as an outie with positive voltage applied to the red rear panel connector. In the sketch the plain white wire coming from the crossover is fed from input positive and goes through the crossover to mid driver negative. This couldn't be mixed up with a ferrite version of the LE5 but could with the AlNiCo version as it has bare wire push connections. That is why I referenced this. At least now I (we?) know that the faston terminated drivers are forward with positive to the male spade.

[QUOTE] The problem (still) is that the wire COLORS are the source of the confusion. On my "transitional" N100s, the non conventional wire color switch was made on Lug#2 on the L-pad(s). As previously written and confirmed with a 100 photos, JBL soldered a BLACK wire to the #2 lug on the LE25's L-pad, instead of the RED or later on, the YELLOW.

So, does the BLACK INPUT wire on your boxes only connect with the network(s) at the #1 L-pad lug feed and the wire which ultimately makes it to the woofer? [QUOTE]

I cannot answer the above question beyond this: On the boxes here as wired and tested for the "white line" response, the black input terminal is electrically connected directly to the:

tweeter - female faston

mid + male faston

woof,,, which ever makes it go outward when the rear panel terminals are connected red to positive like the whole rest of the non JBL world considers normal! Grrrrrr.



I feel like I am doing a terrible job with this. I have been told that I am not good at explaining things. I will keep trying as long as you are patient with me. :)

Barry.

Wagner
10-23-2015, 10:21 AM
Good morning Thomas;

The four 4312 I had here also have the fool proof fastons and all four are alike so like you I assume that they are the way JBL made them.

I did not dig into the crossover wiring at all since the two boxes I was able to complete had no cap or pot issues. I determined the black panel input connection path via an Ohm meter. Once that was established I determined the driver polarity to figure out which were wired forward or reverse. This then in my mind left the final question, the one that could not be readily answered via wire terminations being which way is the woofer supposed to be wired? This I answered, for myself anyway via the frequency response measurements.


[QUOTE] If I am reading this correctly, what you are showing is the "stock" network with the "adjustments" made at the transducers. And then, best I can tell, the only change made was switching the LE5's hookup? And still puzzled there as the LE5 is a NEG transducer (I thought) so the cone movement should be outward (if I am understanding what you have drawn)? [QUOTE]

I did not switch the tweeter or midrange connections in any way. The "white line" measurement was made with the woofer wired as an outie with positive voltage applied to the red rear panel connector. In the sketch the plain white wire coming from the crossover is fed from input positive and goes through the crossover to mid driver negative. This couldn't be mixed up with a ferrite version of the LE5 but could with the AlNiCo version as it has bare wire push connections. That is why I referenced this. At least now I (we?) know that the faston terminated drivers are forward with positive to the male spade.

[QUOTE] The problem (still) is that the wire COLORS are the source of the confusion. On my "transitional" N100s, the non conventional wire color switch was made on Lug#2 on the L-pad(s). As previously written and confirmed with a 100 photos, JBL soldered a BLACK wire to the #2 lug on the LE25's L-pad, instead of the RED or later on, the YELLOW.

So, does the BLACK INPUT wire on your boxes only connect with the network(s) at the #1 L-pad lug feed and the wire which ultimately makes it to the woofer? [QUOTE]

I cannot answer the above question beyond this: On the boxes here as wired and tested for the "white line" response, the black input terminal is electrically connected directly to the:

tweeter - female faston

mid + male faston

woof,,, which ever makes it go outward when the rear panel terminals are connected red to positive like the whole rest of the non JBL world considers normal! Grrrrrr.



I feel like I am doing a terrible job with this. I have been told that I am not good at explaining things. I will keep trying as long as you are patient with me. :)

Barry.
You have done more than enough, thank you!
Don't worry over wasting anymore of your time.
I have corrected an error I made, which you used in a quote: I MIS-typed that the LE5 was a NEG transducer, not so, it is a POS transducer. My careless mistake for not proofreading.

As for your help? You have gone above and beyond.
I can't even get anyone here to take a ruler and measure where a foilcal needs to go for me..........................and YOU are running response curves and drawing mechanical diagrams.
Amazing.
(guess all the golden eared L100 expert bashers don't really even own a pair after all, let alone even heard a good pair since around 1975 http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Talk plenty of subjective bull shit, but when needed, can provide nothing actually useful.

For that, your gracuous efforts to help, I sincerely thank you.
But now we have the JBL wire color inconsistencies, the now verified wiring inconsistencies at the network solder lugs themselves (to facilitate assembly, where color not necessarily reflect signal input, but rather how the assembly line person needed to hook it up) and NOW we're going to stir in the faston equipped drivers polarity variable?

I can't cope with anymore variables unless I can see them (be in the same room with them)

Let's just stop here.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH! for what you have done to try and help me answer this question.
You are a very good man.
Sincere regards,
Thomas

BMWCCA
10-23-2015, 10:59 AM
(guess all the golden eared L100 expert bashers don't really even own a pair after all, let alone even heard a good pair since around 1975 :D)
Talk plenty of subjective bull shit, but when needed, can provide nothing actually useful.

67809

1audiohack
10-23-2015, 11:57 AM
I understand your frustration, I really do. This very thing drove me to buying measurement equipment and taking classes that included travel to Texas and Chicago to attend.

If I have deepened the mystery rather than shed light, I am sorry.

In the end proper testing via measurement is the only way one knows for sure.

At my job we dyno test every single engine, transmission, V drive and differential we build. Validation is part of the culture here.

If you ever get to Las Vegas, throw those things in the trunk and look me up.

My best,
Barry.

Wagner
10-23-2015, 12:27 PM
I understand your frustration, I really do. This very thing drove me to buying measurement equipment and taking classes that included travel to Texas and Chicago to attend.

If I have deepened the mystery rather than shed light, I am sorry.

In the end proper testing via measurement is the only way one knows for sure.

At my job we dyno test every single engine, transmission, V drive and differential we build. Validation is part of the culture here.

If you ever get to Las Vegas, throw those things in the trunk and look me up.

My best,
Barry.
Please do not say that! You have been VERY kind and VERY generous with your time.
It is not your fault that there are so many variables with regard to something that should be so so simple.

Who do you build engine and drivetrains with? You know, that was my trade.

Thanks again Barry,
Thomas

1audiohack
10-23-2015, 04:22 PM
Haha no surprise! People who are truly interested in performance anything are usually interested somewhat in all things performance, like audio. :)

We have our own little shop here at the Vegas Motor Speedway, it's called Gearworks Inc. We are joined at the hip with Kroyer Racing Engines right across the street in a handshake deal that in cooperation we create total powertrain packages.

Come see us if you get out this way.

Barry.

Wagner
10-23-2015, 09:05 PM
Haha no surprise! People who are truly interested in performance anything are usually interested somewhat in all things performance, like audio. :)

We have our own little shop here at the Vegas Motor Speedway, it's called Gearworks Inc. We are joined at the hip with Kroyer Racing Engines right across the street in a handshake deal that in cooperation we create total powertrain packages.

Come see us if you get out this way.

Barry.
So, you do just the final drive or any of the CV/shaft(s) or transmission(s) type work as well?
I went to the Kroyer site; was nice to see that someone still recognizes the TH400 as probably the best that's ever been (with the possible exception of some BorgWarners, MAYBE)

Where do you source your cores? Especially the short shaft?

Whats y'all emphasis on GM, FORD? Whatever? What's your favorite?

1audiohack
10-23-2015, 10:12 PM
I haven't looked on the KRE site for some time, I'm in there every day. The last pictures I remember taking for either of our websites were of a GM case 400. We used to buy the HD cases frome a core company in Chicago about 65-70 at a time. About 2/3 of them would make it through tear down and by the time they got all the way through clean and CNC prep for speed and fluid level sensors, upgraded band anchors and such only about 1/3 would be useful. It was kindof sad how much of them we would just recycle. We would do that about three times a year. All we would use were the cases, pump cover assemblies, valve bodies which we converted to manual shift and some of the hardware.

We bought new pump bodies and gears from GM and literally make all the rest, the drums from billet steel, the shafts from Aermet and the planet sets are customs with alternate ratios (1.95 - 2.98 first gear) and for the last several years we have been using Reid Racing aftermarket cases that we were fortunate to have been involved in the design phase of and got nearly everything we wanted in them.

We saved all the short output shafts but they are not strong enough for what we put them through so we made them as well. We use prostock flange axle forgings from Strange Engineering for the blanks.

Personally I am a GM guy and have done contract work with GM racing on and off for years. I do like Cleavor Fords though. We build 8 stack billet head billet block 900 HP Fords that are just so kick ass in every way, no matter what brand you gravitate to, you couldn't call yourself a car guy if these didn't knock you out.

GW does everything between the flywheel and the brakes. You can get a glimps of what we do at, gearworksinc.com. We need to add a ton of content to our site. None of the trans stuff is on it, not even any of our high pinion Ford diff stuff either. We make billet T400 extension housings and yokes and all kinds of cool stuff that should be on there.