Opinions sought on L200 vs L65's

[Alobar]

I currently own both L200's and L65's (both first generation) that I bought new in the mid 70's and am trying to decide which pair to keep and which to unload. I don't have the Studio Masters with me, they are about 700 miles away but I do have the Jubals. I haven't actually listened to the 200's since the mid 80's as they have been at my brothers home and I have been moving about,thus keeping the 65's. The 200's are in much better condition, perhaps 80 to 85% of mint but with the foam grills shot and a couple very small nicks in the cabs.
The L65's are a different story. While basically sound, there are several nicks and gouges here and there. The glass tops are still with me but have lots of small scratches. The grills are both gone. But the worst part is that both woofers are gone, replaced by 100 dollar non Jbl units. Despite all that, I do find I enjoy listening to the Jubals and I know that they would sound better, perhaps much better with the correct woofers installed. I may have a line on some 128h1's for them should I decide to keep the 65's.
One option I have is to part out the 65s considering the poor condition the cabinets are in and the lack of Jbl 12" drivers and use the tweeters in the L200's. I just don't really remember how the 200's sound and have heard a fair amount of negative feedback on these speakers particularly the first generation models. From what I do remember when I had both speakers in my house that I liked (rather loved) the 200's much better than the 65's but that could have been placement as well as the fact that the 200 was a more efficient design and the rock music I was listening to favored the boominess. My taste in music have changed a little bit since then but I still listen to rock some, never classical however. Mostly I don't listen to musicic at nearly the db level I did 30 and 40 years ago. Also have considerably more nostalgic value on my 200's as they were my first JBL's and I was only 19 yo when I bought them. So with apologies for the long winded post here, what say you? The wife says I can have only one pair! Which of the two would you keep?

[audiomagnate]

I currently own both L200's and L65's (both first generation) that I bought new in the mid 70's and am trying to decide which pair to keep and which to unload. I don't have the Studio Masters with me, they are about 700 miles away but I do have the Jubals. I haven't actually listened to the 200's since the mid 80's as they have been at my brothers home and I have been moving about,thus keeping the 65's. The 200's are in much better condition, perhaps 80 to 85% of mint but with the foam grills shot and a couple very small nicks in the cabs.
The L65's are a different story. While basically sound, there are several nicks and gouges here and there. The glass tops are still with me but have lots of small scratches. The grills are both gone. But the worst part is that both woofers are gone, replaced by 100 dollar non Jbl units. Despite all that, I do find I enjoy listening to the Jubals and I know that they would sound better, perhaps much better with the correct woofers installed. I may have a line on some 128h1's for them should I decide to keep the 65's.
One option I have is to part out the 65s considering the poor condition the cabinets are in and the lack of Jbl 12" drivers and use the tweeters in the L200's. I just don't really remember how the 200's sound and have heard a fair amount of negative feedback on these speakers particularly the first generation models. From what I do remember when I had both speakers in my house that I liked (rather loved) the 200's much better than the 65's but that could have been placement as well as the fact that the 200 was a more efficient design and the rock music I was listening to favored the boominess. My taste in music have changed a little bit since then but I still listen to rock some, never classical however. Mostly I don't listen to musicic at nearly the db level I did 30 and 40 years ago. Also have considerably more nostalgic value on my 200's as they were my first JBL's and I was only 19 yo when I bought them. So with apologies for the long winded post here, what say you? The wife says I can have only one pair! Which of the two would you keep?


Go with the L200's and add a supertweeter. I use a separately amped (because of the lower sensitivity) EMIT-r and absolutely love them, world class IMO after some eq with my DCX 2496, which I also use to as an electronic crossover. This a MUCH more real and dynamic system than the cone mid in the 65's. I think it's much more important to have a compression driver down in the midrange than above 8k.

[Alobar]

Go with the L200's and add a supertweeter. I use a separately amped (because of the lower sensitivity) EMIT-r and absolutely love them, world class IMO after some eq with my DCX 2496, which I also use to
as an electronic crossover. This a MUCH more real and dynamic system than the cone mid in the
65's. I think it's much more important to have a compression driver down in the midrange than above 8k.

Thanks for your input on this. I am not really up on all the possibilities for bypassing crossover networks such as using the dcx2496 so I googled it. This is very interesting. If I understand this right it can be used as an active crossover, bypassing completely the L200 crossover but with a lot of tweaks offered too. One of these could do a 3 way like what I'm considering without the need for trying to make a crossover that will work with this somewhat mishmash of Jbl drivers. If I am understanding you correct this device could possibly compensate for some of the less than ideal qualities of the earliest Studio Masters . Yes I am with you about the horn, but I love that slot tweeter in the L65's Using the dcx 2496 could be the easiest way and maybe the cheapest way to achieve what I want if I do go with the big speakers.

[hjames]

If you have the room and the SAF (Spouse Approval Factor) to keep large speakers, I'd say def bring the L200s home. Even stock they have a very rich sound - and have a huge potential to improve/expand them by tweaking. Adding a slot tweeter is def a great step forward!

I had a pair I grew over the years and, while i do have moments for the Who and similar classic rock, I tended more towards jazz and acoustic music, with a dash of ambient and the like ...

I do have an extended thread here on how I grew mine over the years and can link to it if you are interested

The potential is only limited by your budget.

[Alobar]

If you have the room and the SAF (Spouse Approval Factor) to keep large speakers, I'd say def bring the L200s home. Even stock they have a very rich sound - and have a huge potential to improve/expand them by tweaking. Adding a slot tweeter is def a great step forward!

I had a pair I grew over the years and, while i do have moments for the Who and similar classic rock, I tended more towards jazz and acoustic music, with a dash of ambient and the like ...

I do have an extended thread here on how I grew mine over the years and can link to it if you are interested

The potential is only limited by your budget.
HI hjames, yes I have read about the evolution of your L200's and liked your philosophy of doing incremental upgrades over time. It will be more difficult for me to buy different drivers and such because of where I live. My biggest source, would be eBay but often sellers won't ship here at all. I will probably have to stick with the stock drivers such as the LE15B and try to compensate if necessary. Fortunately I have the 077's from the jubals so that upgrade should be obtainable. .
As for the spouse, she saw the 200's when we drove up and visited my brother this summer and she was a little concerned about their size but I think she liked that the cabs are in much better shape than the L65's we are listening to now. I wanted to bring them home right then and there (before she had time to think about it) but there wasn't enough room in the car.. :(

[Wagner]

Which version "200" the first with the 136A or the "B" with the LE15B?
If the L65s are in need of major rehab I'd say go with the L200s

It may sound "silly" but I have come to the conclusion that nowadays, when all of the Heritage models are becoming more and more rare (in any sort of condition and at a reasonable price), it is often a wise choice to go with the rarer of the boxes if you can only pick one

I know and understand the primary goal should be sound (and most importantly if you like it) but the way things are today, scarcity is something that shouldn't be overlooked either (my opinion) My reasoning is, is that if you find you just can't live with a system and have to let it go to a new home, the better return helps take some of the sting out of passing on your efforts (and investment)

The L65's cab was shared by numerous models and if you ever decide that you just can't live without a pair, they are "doable" much more easily than a pair of "200"s (that assuming that you are not able to build or clone your own) and don't mind "assembling" a pair. The "200"'s box not so much

I too have read many of the knocks on the L200, but it's funny how any given model that enjoys little love is suddenly the hot ticket in a few years down the road

Those slots and the glass tops may be nice, very nice but a two way with a horn tied to a 15" is hard to beat for sheer and effortless beauty (even if it doesn't measure the best) versus what is (to my mind) an L100 done right with a bigger box and a superior tweeter in the 077

Go with the L200s; as others have pointed out, you can always augment your load if you feel the need

The beauty of early JBL!

Keep your L200s, sell off what's left of the L65s and use the proceeds to bring your L200s back up to top condition

[Alobar]

Thanks for the input! It looks unanimous that the L200's are the keepers in spite of the bad press. I was bidding on some Jbl 128h1 drivers on eBay for the L65's but was outbid towards the end of the auction and decided it is the 200's turn to come home and are going to be my speakers, probably by late fall or next spring. . I got some great ideas from this thread and am going to be looking into fitting the cabs with the 077 tweeters and possibly using the DCX2496 or something similar.

[hjames]

And you can always go to the local glass shop and have thick smoked glass cut to size to sit on top of your L200s to protect them.
Looks really nice and gives you piece of mind!


A couple examples

66698

[Alobar]

And you can always go to the local glass shop and have thick smoked glass cut to size to sit on top of your L200s to protect them.
Looks really nice and gives you piece of mind!]

Those glass tops really look great! I have to show my wife these.. I think I am going to buy new foam grills for the screens that are there now just to have. Now which color? Better involve my wife again. :bouncy:.

[hjames]

Those glass tops really look great! I have to show my wife these.. I think I am going to buy new foam grills for the screens that are there now just to have. Now which color? Better involve my wife again. :bouncy:.

The Glass-top pictures show a pair of cloth grills I made using JBL Pro Monitor blue - a dark blue that almost looks black.

Over time, I had 2 pairs of sculpted foam grills made for mine.
First I got chocolate brown, then later I got a pair made in black and they looked superb -
Pay no attention to the grey cat fur on the black grills - Our Himalayan cat loved to rub up against the ribbed grills ...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=40397&d=1245794560

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=63606&d=1416164314

[audiomagnate]

Thanks for the input! It looks unanimous that the L200's are the keepers in spite of the bad press. I was bidding on some Jbl 128h1 drivers on eBay for the L65's but was outbid towards the end of the auction and decided it is the 200's turn to come home and are going to be my speakers, probably by late fall or next spring. . I got some great ideas from this thread and am going to be looking into fitting the cabs with the 077 tweeters and possibly using the DCX2496 or something similar.


If you go with the 077's you don't really need an electronic crossover, just a simple 1 mfd cap and an L pad for level control; easy peazy. I use an electronic crossover and a separate tweeter amp because the emit-r tweeters are not sensitive enough to play with the other drivers in the L200's. It's actually a cheaper than going with the 077 because they have gotten so damn expensive of late, and it sounds just as good - if not better - to my ears. I also use the EC because I roll the L200's off at 50 Hz and then use a massive swarm of DIY subs (and a few spare BGW 620b's for power) to augment the bass, which also helps tremendously. To paraphrase what Heather said, L200s are fine on their own, but with a little tweaking/augmentation, you can have yourself a world class speaker system. I prettied mine up with a shellac refinish and now they are absolutely gorgeous to look at as well.

[Alobar]

The Glass-top pictures show a pair of cloth grills I made using JBL Pro Monitor blue - a dark blue that almost looks black.

Over time, I had 2 pairs of sculpted foam grills made for mine.
First I got chocolate brown, then later I got a pair made in black and they looked superb -
Pay no attention to the grey cat fur on the black grills - Our Himalayan cat loved to rub up against the ribbed grills ...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=40397&d=1245794560

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=63606&d=1416164314
Those dark blue foam grills look very similar to the color mine were when new. I think this time I might go with the brown.

[Alobar]

If you go with the 077's you don't really need an electronic crossover, just a simple 1 mfd cap and an L pad for level control; easy peazy. I use an electronic crossover and a separate tweeter amp because the emit-r tweeters are not sensitive enough to play with the other drivers in the L200's. It's actually a cheaper than going with the 077 because they have gotten so damn expensive of late, and it sounds just as good - if not better - to my ears. I also use the EC because I roll the L200's off at 50 Hz and then use a massive swarm of DIY subs (and a few spare BGW 620b's for power) to augment the bass, which also helps tremendously. To paraphrase what Heather said, L200s are fine on their own, but with a little tweaking/augmentation, you can have yourself a world class speaker system. I prettied mine up with a shellac refinish and now they are absolutely gorgeous to look at as well.

I obviously have so much to learn! What exactly is the difference between what you are describing and the n8000 crossover in terms of functionality?
I do like the idea of slowly building on the stock L200, making improvements along the way.

[JBeL]

Sell the wife and keep the JBL's...sorry only joking. l have a pair of L200A's and they are great speakers. l love them, they are all original and in great shape and have thick glass tops specially made for them to protect the timber tops. Don't worry about modifying them with extra tweeters and horns, crossovers and the like, they sound good just the way they are and like me l'm a bit older now and listen a lot more at realistic volume levels with a 30w/channel valve amp. Best sound l've ever heard and the L200's being efficient produce effortless quality sound, no harshness, lots of dynamics and if you have a well recorded CD it's very rewarding listening to the music through those big old JB's ;):)

[Alobar]

Sell the wife and keep the JBL's...sorry only joking. l have a pair of L200A's and they are great speakers. l love them, they are all original and in great shape and have thick glass tops specially made for them to protect the timber tops. Don't worry about modifying them with extra tweeters and horns, crossovers and the like, they sound good just the way they are and like me l'm a bit older now and listen a lot more at realistic volume levels with a 30w/channel valve amp. Best sound l've ever heard and the L200's being efficient produce effortless quality sound, no harshness, lots of dynamics and if you have a well recorded CD it's very rewarding listening to the music through those big old JB's ;):)
Thanks JBel for your take on these speakers. I remember feeling the same way about mine so many (too many) years ago! I bought them new in 74, at just 19 I remember working long hours to have the $1000 price (on sale) set aside for good speakers. I used them about continuously for the first 11 years but then I needed to move quite a bit for work and it was just too impractical to drag these around so just kept the L65's and did some sort of trade with my oldest brother and he has had them since. Now he wants me to have them back but the thing is that it has been said on here and other forums that these were not Jbl's finest speaker in terms of sound, I don't know, quality maybe? Accuracy? Many call them boom boxes, or whatever (and how many of those people have actually listened to them instead of just reading the article.). At the same time there are some who have tweaked them and made them a much better sounding speaker and it is that which I am very interested in now. It may be true that they are going to sound awesome just the way they are and if so maybe I will spend my time fishing or some other pursuit. I think it was around 1985 the last time I listened to them so don't really remember what they sound like or what my perception of them will be when I get them back. I do know I loved the L200 sound then but I was just a hick kid from Alaska so what did I really know? :p Now I am really excited about spending quality time with the old Studio Masters listening to the music I play now! :bouncy:

[tinpan]

Another vote for the L200's. Thanks to Hjames and BMWCCA I have both the L200's and 4320's in house and I love both of them. I have and have had quite a few speakers in house and they absolutely kill many other speakers especially if you like detail and great imaging. The sound is just nice and warm and surrounds you like your favorite leather glove.

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrfkwwbfqktkbfbxfrdddbggstq,vi/twfsfrrgbxwrgtsbrktxwbqstrwds/6/111916/12628482/IMG_27671edit-vi.jpg

Normally I like a compression horn crossover'd at 500hz these crossover a little higher but they sound wonderful. The 4320's I have running stock 2 way and the L200's may look a little familiar. They have the 2405 tweeters and 2445J midrange driving the Smith's horns.While they are currently set up as a 3 way, to be honest I'm not sure how much of the 2405 I hear. I think bone stock you may be surprised how nice they sound. I ran them all weekend with the LE85 horn driver instead of the 2445J and love the sound either way.


http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrfkwwkbffggrbtxfrdddbggstq,vi/skgbsqsrqxttwkwktsbxkkgfwsqgf/6/111916/12628482/IMG_27691editcopy-vi.jpg
I'm using a pair of 300b tube amps on these and the sound is wonderful

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrfkwwbsdqgwkbqxfrdddbggstq,vi/wqbfqsggbxwrqfwtgqbxgqtwkrff/6/111916/12628482/IMG_2775edit-vi.jpg
The 4320's are serving temporary duty as my office speaker. I know I know the room is a little small...but the sound.

[Alobar]

Thanks Tinpan for the vote and your opinion on the L200's. You are describing just how I remember mine sounding! I was wondering if yours are the 200 B or one of the older versions like mine are? The newer ones were improved in some ways with a different 15 inch driver and some change in the crossovers.

I am pretty certain I am going to have the 200's as my speakers but am wanting to set up both for a while just to see how much I would miss not having the 077 tweeters. I sorta hate stripping and parting out the L65's and may just hang onto them for a garage / shop speaker or try to sell them locally (too heavy to ship from Alaska). Then again this would be good opportunity to upgrade my 200's with the addition of the slot tweeters for no money. Need to listen to them as they are for a while before I decide.

[audiomagnate]

Thanks Tinpan for the vote and your opinion on the L200's. You are describing just how I remember mine sounding! I was wondering if yours are the 200 B or one of the older versions like mine are? The newer ones were improved in some ways with a different 15 inch driver and some change in the crossovers.

I am pretty certain I am going to have the 200's as my speakers but am wanting to set up both for a while just to see how much I would miss not having the 077 tweeters. I sorta hate stripping and parting out the L65's and may just hang onto them for a garage / shop speaker or try to sell them locally (too heavy to ship from Alaska). Then again this would be good opportunity to upgrade my 200's with the addition of the slot tweeters for no money. Need to listen to them as they are for a while before I decide.

I don't know for sure what Tinpan has, but the 200B is different enough from the 200 that most owners of them let you know what they have, so I'm going to assume he (she?) has the original 200's.

[hjames]

Actually, I sold tinpan my L200s earlier this year - They are the cabinet with the two ports -
tho I plugged one port based on feedback from Zilch ages ago.
They have a pair of 2234 woofers and the internal short-horns with 2425s,
tho I had set them up so they could be easily bypassed to run the smith horns and pro drivers on top.
I had built a pair of 3133 crossovers for them, based on a design Giskard posted ages ago.

In all truth, before you mod yours, hook them up and really listen to them for a month or so.
Go through all your music and see how it sounds - is anything dull or lacking, or does it all make you smile?
That should give you a clue what to do!



Thanks Tinpan for the vote and your opinion on the L200's. You are describing just how I remember mine sounding! I was wondering if yours are the 200 B or one of the older versions like mine are? The newer ones were improved in some ways with a different 15 inch driver and some change in the crossovers.

I am pretty certain I am going to have the 200's as my speakers but am wanting to set up both for a while just to see how much I would miss not having the 077 tweeters. I sorta hate stripping and parting out the L65's and may just hang onto them for a garage / shop speaker or try to sell them locally (too heavy to ship from Alaska). Then again this would be good opportunity to upgrade my 200's with the addition of the slot tweeters for no money. Need to listen to them as they are for a while before I decide.

[Alobar]

Actually, I sold tinpan my L200s earlier this year - They are the cabinet with the two ports -
tho I plugged one port based on feedback from Zilch ages ago.
They have a pair of 2234 woofers and the internal short-horns with 2425s,
tho I had set them up so they could be easily bypassed to run the smith horns and pro drivers on top.
I had built a pair of 3133 crossovers for them, based on a design Giskard posted ages ago.

In all truth, before you mod yours, hook them up and really listen to them for a month or so.
Go through all your music and see how it sounds - is anything dull or lacking, or does it all make you smile?
That should give you a clue what to do!

Ha! That's why they looked so familiar, they are your old ones! :crying:I was thinking he built up his own based on your concept! Definitely working too many long hours these days.

Anyway very incouraging reports coming from actual L200 owners! I am so tempted to drive up this winter and get them. Don't think I want to wait till next spring.

[Alobar]

Finally I made the 1300 mile round trip through the wilderness of Alaska and the Yukon to bring back my L200's, after removing the rear seat from my extended cab Chevy truck.

http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k500/eaglesnest_1412/20151104_084420_zpsdgqdbtg1.jpg (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/eaglesnest_1412/media/20151104_084420_zpsdgqdbtg1.jpg.html)

Now that they are home I have done a little cleanup and some furniture polish I am quite pleased how well the cabinets have held up the past 41 years! the drivers seem perfect and really the only thing wrong is a minor aprox 1" long nick in one of the cabinets, and of course the grilles molted and vanished about 10 years back. I still have the screens so decided to try something. I went and bought new metal bug screen of the same mesh as the original and after installing that with the little roller tool made for bug screen repair I spray painted the frame and screen with black and I really like the result! It looks from a distance like a smoked glass in front of the drivers. I love the look as I can see the drivers behind the screen and they are protected from anything short of someone's boot.

So as to the sound, they are quite good, considerably more detail than the L65's and very nice to sit and listen to all evening. This is with a very cheap amp (bought off from Amazon for $89!) I am using while my Kenwood 700M is out getting a rebuild. I love that old Kenny and am every excited to have it back to listen to the 200's the way I remember..

Here is a couple pictures of them in my living room. Excuse the messy house and tacky looking component setup. I am building our house while we are living in it (its an Alaskan thing) and we don't have the flooring down yet. Eventually I am going to have a nice setup but for now its a work in progress... Anyway, so nice to have the heart of my old system back, spanning 41 years to when I was 19 years old. Vintage rocks! :banana::dj-party:
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k500/eaglesnest_1412/L200-1_zpsjoh5xrep.jpg (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/eaglesnest_1412/media/L200-1_zpsjoh5xrep.jpg.html)

http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k500/eaglesnest_1412/SAM_3764_zpsszwsdgx9.jpg (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/eaglesnest_1412/media/SAM_3764_zpsszwsdgx9.jpg.html)

http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k500/eaglesnest_1412/jbl2_zpsqeqwmt9x.jpg (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/eaglesnest_1412/media/jbl2_zpsqeqwmt9x.jpg.html)

[audiomagnate]

Congratulations! They look very happy.

[Alobar]

Congratulations! They look very happy.


Thanks! They seem to be! I raised them about 4 " by putting casters underthec them.. Love the sound they are producing.

[Mr. Widget]

Love the sound they are producing.Great! Congratulations!
I love those speakers... more out of nostalgia than audio performance, but I still love them.


Widget

[audiomagnate]

Great! Congratulations!
I love those speakers... more out of nostalgia than audio performance, but I still love them.


Widget

I love them out of nostalgia, for their incredibly cool timeless look, AND the way they sound after stuffing the insides and ports, adding some felt to the inside top edge, bringing in an amplified emit-R at 8K, rolling them off at 50, and adding a sub swarm.

[Alobar]

Great! Congratulations!
I love those speakers... more out of nostalgia than audio performance, but I still love them.


Widget


I love them out of nostalgia, for their incredibly cool timeless look, AND the way they sound after stuffing the insides and ports, adding some felt to the inside top edge, bringing in an amplified emit-R at 8K, rolling them off at 50, and adding a sub swarm.

There is quite a bit I would like to do to improve the sound of these. The biggest hurdle is that my location is remote and isolated to the point where the usual places to buy used parts, crossovers, better drivers etc such as ebay are simply not an option due to shipping policies to Alaska most sellers have. That doesn't leave me with much. I can usually buy new components, maybe an active crossover or parts to build an n8000 or better to go with the 077's I have in the Jubals should I go that route. That brings up another problem. I am trying to decide what to do with the L65's. I simply have no room for them, either as a secondary system or even putting them storage and my wife is already getting tired of looking at them in the hallway. In this tiny town I doubt I could get $50 for them in their condition and shipping them outside is not an option. I could part them out, maybe sell the components (I am not restricted by shipping when I am the seller) or use the 077's at some point in the 200's which I am in favor of so long as they will play nice with the original L200 components including the LE 15B's. I don't want to bother or otherwise muck up my original Studio Masters if this wont end up being a substantial improvement.

I'll probably start a new thread at some point if and when I decide to attempt to do some upgrading, but first I need to wait for my Kenwood amp to get back and listen to them through that amp for a while. I hope you guys will chime in with your thoughts, opinions, and instructions as to how to proceed with what I have. Maybe it will just be something simple such as plugging a port, or maybe more complex. Whatever, these are my speakers for better or worse, I wont be getting anything else so will want to make them all they can be. :)

[SEAWOLF97]

(obliquely on topic)

I've HAD L-65's (didn't keep long) and recently HAD c-38 Barons (D130/075)
and IF the choice was between those 2 , well ....IMHO, the big c-38's were
more enjoyable.

Seems like the thread question might be decided the same way , and I think
the right answer was reached. :)

[audiomagnate]

There is quite a bit I would like to do to improve the sound of these. The biggest hurdle is that my location is remote and isolated to the point where the usual places to buy used parts, crossovers, better drivers etc such as ebay are simply not an option due to shipping policies to Alaska most sellers have. That doesn't leave me with much. I can usually buy new components, maybe an active crossover or parts to build an n8000 or better to go with the 077's I have in the Jubals should I go that route. That brings up another problem. I am trying to decide what to do with the L65's. I simply have no room for them, either as a secondary system or even putting them storage and my wife is already getting tired of looking at them in the hallway. In this tiny town I doubt I could get $50 for them in their condition and shipping them outside is not an option. I could part them out, maybe sell the components (I am not restricted by shipping when I am the seller) or use the 077's at some point in the 200's which I am in favor of so long as they will play nice with the original L200 components including the LE 15B's. I don't want to bother or otherwise muck up my original Studio Masters if this wont end up being a substantial improvement.

I'll probably start a new thread at some point if and when I decide to attempt to do some upgrading, but first I need to wait for my Kenwood amp to get back and listen to them through that amp for a while. I hope you guys will chime in with your thoughts, opinions, and instructions as to how to proceed with what I have. Maybe it will just be something simple such as plugging a port, or maybe more complex. Whatever, these are my speakers for better or worse, I wont be getting anything else so will want to make them all they can be. :)


077/2405's's play very nicely indeed with L200's, and are a very easy add on. A 1 mf cap and an L Pad will work.

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Tinpan,

You posted this photo of your L200's (via Heather).

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrfkwwbfqktkbfbxfrdddbggstq,vi/twfsfrrgbxwrgtsbrktxwbqstrwds/6/111916/12628482/IMG_27671edit-vi.jpg

If possible, could you please show a photo of how your horn/CD are balanced on top of your cabinets? I can't really tell for sure how you have them up there. Thanks for any clarification you can send along. Great looking system, by the way, and the La Scala's look nice, too! Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[hjames]

Wow - very nice retrieval of your speakers!




Finally I made the 1300 mile round trip through the wilderness of Alaska and the Yukon to bring back my L200's, after removing the rear seat from my extended cab Chevy truck.

[/URL]
Now that they are home I have done a little cleanup and some furniture polish I am quite pleased how well the cabinets have held up the past 41 years! the drivers seem perfect and really the only thing wrong is a minor aprox 1" long nick in one of the cabinets, and of course the grilles molted and vanished about 10 years back. I still have the screens so decided to try something. I went and bought new metal bug screen of the same mesh as the original and after installing that with the little roller tool made for bug screen repair I spray painted the frame and screen with black and I really like the result! It looks from a distance like a smoked glass in front of the drivers. I love the look as I can see the drivers behind the screen and they are protected from anything short of someone's boot.

So as to the sound, they are quite good, considerably more detail than the L65's and very nice to sit and listen to all evening. This is with a very cheap amp (bought off from Amazon for $89!) I am using while my Kenwood 700M is out getting a rebuild. I love that old Kenny and am every excited to have it back to listen to the 200's the way I remember..

Here is a couple pictures of them in my living room. Excuse the messy house and tacky looking component setup. I am building our house while we are living in it (its an Alaskan thing) and we don't have the flooring down yet. Eventually I am going to have a nice setup but for now its a work in progress... Anyway, so nice to have the heart of my old system back, spanning 41 years to when I was 19 years old. Vintage rocks! :banana::dj-party:
(http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/eaglesnest_1412/media/20151104_084420_zpsdgqdbtg1.jpg.html)



[URL="http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/eaglesnest_1412/media/jbl2_zpsqeqwmt9x.jpg.html"] (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/eaglesnest_1412/media/SAM_3764_zpsszwsdgx9.jpg.html)

[hjames]

Hiya Doc!
If I may be so bold ...

Taking a look at the picture, it looks like he has a small support block just a bit ahead of the Pro driver, about midway under the walnut Smith horns

Not sure if he is using a stack of cork/runner cushion blocks I gave him when I sold the horns - tho I was using 3 stacks per horn at the outer edges -
with a jumper like Teddy cat, and since we had them more in the middle of the room, I felt more secure with more under-support.
Sorry for the old blurry pix - but you can see the cushion stacks clearly here ...

68182



Hi, Tinpan,

You posted the photo of your L200's (via Heather).



If possible, could you please show a photo of how your horn/CD are balanced on top of your cabinets? I can't really tell for sure how you have them up there. Thanks for any clarification you can send along. Great looking system, by the way, and the La Scala's look nice, too! Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Alobar]

Wow - very nice retrieval of your speakers!

Thank you Heather, it has been a year and a half trying to figure out how to get them fitted into a vehicle. I am just thrilled to have them home! Now I am going to research how to incorporate the 077's into these L200's, and no doubt will be rereading your threads on how you did yours. It is unclear how all this will work out with the original LE 15B's but this is likely all I will ever be able to have due to the shipping restrictions to AK.

[Doc Mark]

Good Evening, Heather!

Many thanks! Your photos shows me what I did not see in Alobar's post. I was thinking that a brace, of some kind, had to be in use. But, I did not see anything to verify that. Many thanks for the clarification!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Alobar]

Really do love these speakers! :bouncy: The sound is pretty incredible, to me anyhow. There are a few things I would like to be better however. I sort of miss the amazing crispness of the L65's 077 super tweeters and I am getting to the point where I want to add them to the L200's. I think the way I want to go is to build a new 3 way crossover, even though I don't have any experience doing these sorts of things, looking at the schematics it doesn't seem that hard to put together. One thing I don't know however is if there is one designed to work with the LE15B's and H91's or would I need to modify something on the order of what HJames had in her L200's seeing that her drivers were much different.

I am just in the thinking stage right now and will probably start a new thread to get ideas on how to proceed. Due to my remote local, it is hard to get ebay sellers to ship here so exchanging and upgrading drivers is probably out.

[audiomagnate]

Really do love these speakers! :bouncy: The sound is pretty incredible, to me anyhow. There are a few things I would like to be better however. I sort of miss the amazing crispness of the L65's 077 super tweeters and I am getting to the point where I want to add them to the L200's. I think the way I want to go is to build a new 3 way crossover, even though I don't have any experience doing these sorts of things, looking at the schematics it doesn't seem that hard to put together. One thing I don't know however is if there is one designed to work with the LE15B's and H91's or would I need to modify something on the order of what HJames had in her L200's seeing that her drivers were much different.

I am just in the thinking stage right now and will probably start a new thread to get ideas on how to proceed. Due to my remote local, it is hard to get ebay sellers to ship here so exchanging and upgrading drivers is probably out.

I mf cap and an Lpad, easy peasy. The hardest part is drilling the hole.

[hjames]

Really do love these speakers! :bouncy: The sound is pretty incredible, to me anyhow. There are a few things I would like to be better however. I sort of miss the amazing crispness of the L65's 077 super tweeters and I am getting to the point where I want to add them to the L200's. I think the way I want to go is to build a new 3 way crossover, even though I don't have any experience doing these sorts of things, looking at the schematics it doesn't seem that hard to put together. One thing I don't know however is if there is one designed to work with the LE15B's and H91's or would I need to modify something on the order of what HJames had in her L200's seeing that her drivers were much different.

I am just in the thinking stage right now and will probably start a new thread to get ideas on how to proceed. Due to my remote local, it is hard to get ebay sellers to ship here so exchanging and upgrading drivers is probably out.

I built the Crossover based on specs from then-user Giskard which was made for the 4333 design.
It was NOT designed for the pro driver of walnut horn I put in later -
it designed for the original exponential midHorn and slot tweeter like you have.

[Alobar]

I mf cap and an Lpad, easy peasy. The hardest part is drilling the hole.
Thanks, Where in the circuit does the cap go? How does this work? Obviously this isn't a crossover so the horn must be doing some duplication of the 077, or am I missing something? This does seem to be a very easy approach and one I could get around to with minimal fuss. Is there any advantage in a full on 3 way crossover over this setup? I apologize in advance for my very limited knowledge in this area!

[Alobar]

I built the Crossover based on specs from then-user Giskard which was made for the 4333 design.
It was NOT designed for the pro driver of walnut horn I put in later -
it designed for the original exponential midHorn and slot tweeter like you have.
Hi Heather, This crossover sounds like the ultimate solution for everything. This would take care of having to recap the LX16 and give me a full 3 way crossover.
I believe you had sent me the link to this design at one time or another but I looked through my saved bookmarks and couldn't locate it. Also did a search and came up empty. If it isn't too much trouble could you post it? Thanks. I don't know if I will actually put it together myself or let my BIL in Portland build it for me. He dabbles in audio DIY projects and has an electronics background from his Navy days.

[hjames]

Hi Heather, This crossover sounds like the ultimate solution for everything. This would take care of having to recap the LX16 and give me a full 3 way crossover.
I believe you had sent me the link to this design at one time or another but I looked through my saved bookmarks and couldn't locate it. Also did a search and came up empty. If it isn't too much trouble could you post it? Thanks. I don't know if I will actually put it together myself or let my BIL in Portland build it for me. He dabbles in audio DIY projects and has an electronics background from his Navy days.

Here is the link to the actual 3133 Equivalent circuit I built for mine ... (designed by major member 4313B)

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?166-4333-S300-L300-equivalent-bandbass-circuit&p=1042#post1042

[Alobar]

I mf cap and an Lpad, easy peasy. The hardest part is drilling the hole.


Thanks, Where in the circuit does the cap go? How does this work? Obviously this isn't a crossover so the horn must be doing some duplication of the 077, or am I missing something? This does seem to be a very easy approach and one I could get around to with minimal fuss. Is there any advantage in a full on 3 way crossover over this setup? I apologize in advance for my very limited knowledge in this area!

Okay, I did a little light reading last night and it looks like this idea comes from Nelson Pass and his modification of the L300 crossover. I guess my only question, and again forgive me as I am very new at all of this, is that the L300 was already a 3 way speaker whereas mine is only a 2 way. Wouldn't I have to do some sort of modification to my old crossover so that the horn wouldn't compete with the 077?

I need to start a new thread, maybe in the DIY section as this one was mainly helping to make the decision on which speaker to go with.

[Alobar]

Here is the link to the actual 3133 Equivalent circuit I built for mine ... (designed by major member 4313B)

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?166-4333-S300-L300-equivalent-bandbass-circuit&p=1042#post1042

Thanks Heather! I've been doing some reading of your thread titled Tubes and Horns and it has me thinking about getting a tube amp and bi amp using my massive Kenwood 700M for the low frequency.
It sure sounds like you are living the life, getting to try out and buy all sorts of interesting gear! I feel so isolated in that regard with only a couple relatives who are that much into quality sound and nowhere to listen to or buy different components. Sort of stuck with what I bought 40 years ago. Oh well probably for the best with concerns to my bank acc....
I was wondering if you have another earlier thread somewhere that covers the upgrades specifically that you made to your 200's, how that particular configuration came to be. I would consider it required reading! :D

[hjames]

Thanks for the kind words ... I believe I had linked all the threads together ...
but there were a number of threads over time from 4320 2ways that I wanted to make into low-budget DIY 4-ways,
and when I found a pair of 4341 4-ways, my vision for the 2ways carried over into what i did with them and I grew
them into 3-ways and actually preferred them to the 4341s. Then it was just a matter of upgrading the mid-driver and horns
for the better vocals - and going to tubes took me further down that road ...

I think the earliest thread was this one starting in 2006:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?9796-4320-Project

That jumped here when I moved the parts to the first pair of L-200 Cabinets ...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?15317-Looky-What-I-just-got-Those-Darned-L200-Cabs-%28from-Aberdeen%29/page9

That followed a number of changes (including a better set of L200 cabinets at one point)
and then moved to the amplifier changes to tube amps here ...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?32124-Tubes-and-horns





Thanks Heather! I've been doing some reading of your thread titled Tubes and Horns and it has me thinking about getting a tube amp and bi amp using my massive Kenwood 700M for the low frequency.
It sure sounds like you are living the life, getting to try out and buy all sorts of interesting gear! I feel so isolated in that regard with only a couple relatives who are that much into quality sound and nowhere to listen to or buy different components. Sort of stuck with what I bought 40 years ago. Oh well probably for the best with concerns to my bank acc....
I was wondering if you have another earlier thread somewhere that covers the upgrades specifically that you made to your 200's, how that particular configuration came to be. I would consider it required reading! :D

[hjames]

But the original chart I linked to has white lines on a black background - so its REALLY hard to print -

when I researched my old threads for you a few minutes ago, I found a copy where I had flipped Black for white in Photoshop - its easier to read here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?15317-Looky-What-I-just-got-Those-Darned-L200-Cabs-%28from-Aberdeen%29&p=268763&viewfull=1#post268763


Enjoy!

Oh - if you decide to biamp, way back when, Bo Putnam had posted about Ashly XR-1001
electronic crossovers - I used them and so did BMWCCA when we biamped out 4-way monitors ...
The earlier ones were US made, then they moved production offshore.
I had the US version and it was quiet and worked well ...
- for a while you could find them used for around $100 or so -



Thanks Heather! I've been doing some reading of your thread titled Tubes and Horns and it has me thinking about getting a tube amp and bi amp using my massive Kenwood 700M for the low frequency.
It sure sounds like you are living the life, getting to try out and buy all sorts of interesting gear! I feel so isolated in that regard with only a couple relatives who are that much into quality sound and nowhere to listen to or buy different components. Sort of stuck with what I bought 40 years ago. Oh well probably for the best with concerns to my bank acc....
I was wondering if you have another earlier thread somewhere that covers the upgrades specifically that you made to your 200's, how that particular configuration came to be. I would consider it required reading! :D

[Alobar]

But the original chart I linked to has white lines on a black background - so its REALLY hard to print -

when I researched my old threads for you a few minutes ago, I found a copy where I had flipped Black for white in Photoshop - its easier to read here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?15317-Looky-What-I-just-got-Those-Darned-L200-Cabs-%28from-Aberdeen%29&p=268763&viewfull=1#post268763


Enjoy!

Oh - if you decide to biamp, way back when, Bo Putnam had posted about Ashly XR-1001
electronic crossovers - I used them and so did BMWCCA when we biamped out 4-way monitors ...
The earlier ones were US made, then they moved production offshore.
I had the US version and it was quiet and worked well ...
- for a while you could find them used for around $100 or so -

Thanks for the links! It will give me some good holiday reading! Yeah I never would have thought to run that schematic through P-shop to get a printable image. Would have been hell on my black ink cartridge.

Really been doing a lot of thinking and reading, trying to learn what I can from threads about crossovers, both electronic and passive, the advantages and drawbacks and how it relates to my speakers and the marriage of the 077's into the L200's. I have 2 BIL's who are both into tube amps and from what I have heard listening to their systems it would be intriguing to have a go of it with the 200's. The 170 WPC Kenwood power amp is one I have owned since 1975 and I really do love that rig so I will just keep it regardless, either as the sole amp if I go passive, or if I biamped it could easily carry the heavy lifting with the low frequency driver and likely I could then get just a small tube amp for the other 2 drivers (or maybe 2 of them and triamp) I am thinking even as small as 2 WPC tubes would probably fulfill my needs with the Kenwood taking the biggest burden.

Then again maybe audiomagnate's idea of simply adding the 077 with the cap and Lpad would get me going for the time being, something I could do soon and then let the rest evolve.

I am fortunate to have these speakers in good condition as they are and have full knowledge of their background. They really only have been listened to much in their first 10 years when I had them. Once my brother took them under his roof in the mid 80's they saw very little use, maybe a bit of Christmas music and that's it. Then the last 10 years they didn't make a sound as the preamp quit working and it all just sat. Point is I don't think I need to do any rebuilding of the drivers such as it appears you did, they should be in pretty good shape. I don't know what causes electronics to go bad, lots of use, or simply lots of time but I suspect that caps don't do well after 40 years regardless. Seems like a good time to consider the alternatives. Really am not needing to throw huge sums of money at all of this, but I think they would benefit from the 077's at the very least which are already here. My hearing is still quite good, remarkable after all they have been through and because I have been listening to the L65's I know I will hear the super tweeters sing!

In the meanwhile the 200's sound great as is.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[hjames]

The only thing to consider is that in electronic circuits of some age, the resistors should not change, and since inductors are just coils of wire, they won't change either. But capacitors get old, dry out and as they do, their values change. That means the crossover points may move from what they were designed to be back in the 70s. Thats one reason folks build new crossover networks, and the other is that the engineers learned a lot in the 70s, 80s, and 90, so the improved designs should work much better than the originals did.

Happy thanksgiving!




Thanks for the links! It will give me some good holiday reading! Yeah I never would have thought to run that schematic through P-shop to get a printable image. Would have been hell on my black ink cartridge.

Really been doing a lot of thinking and reading, trying to learn what I can from threads about crossovers, both electronic and passive, the advantages and drawbacks and how it relates to my speakers and the marriage of the 077's into the L200's. I have 2 BIL's who are both into tube amps and from what I have heard listening to their systems it would be intriguing to have a go of it with the 200's. The 170 WPC Kenwood power amp is one I have owned since 1975 and I really do love that rig so I will just keep it regardless, either as the sole amp if I go passive, or if I biamped it could easily carry the heavy lifting with the low frequency driver and likely I could then get just a small tube amp for the other 2 drivers (or maybe 2 of them and triamp) I am thinking even as small as 2 WPC tubes would probably fulfill my needs with the Kenwood taking the biggest burden.

Then again maybe audiomagnate's idea of simply adding the 077 with the cap and Lpad would get me going for the time being, something I could do soon and then let the rest evolve.

I am fortunate to have these speakers in good condition as they are and have full knowledge of their background. They really only have been listened to much in their first 10 years when I had them. Once my brother took them under his roof in the mid 80's they saw very little use, maybe a bit of Christmas music and that's it. Then the last 10 years they didn't make a sound as the preamp quit working and it all just sat. Point is I don't think I need to do any rebuilding of the drivers such as it appears you did, they should be in pretty good shape. I don't know what causes electronics to go bad, lots of use, or simply lots of time but I suspect that caps don't do well after 40 years regardless. Seems like a good time to consider the alternatives. Really am not needing to throw huge sums of money at all of this, but I think they would benefit from the 077's at the very least which are already here. My hearing is still quite good, remarkable after all they have been through and because I have been listening to the L65's I know I will hear the super tweeters sing!

In the meanwhile the 200's sound great as is.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[audiomagnate]

Thanks, Where in the circuit does the cap go? How does this work? Obviously this isn't a crossover so the horn must be doing some duplication of the 077, or am I missing something? This does seem to be a very easy approach and one I could get around to with minimal fuss. Is there any advantage in a full on 3 way crossover over this setup? I apologize in advance for my very limited knowledge in this area!
With all due respect, I think you are over thinking this and this isn't the place to learn basic electronic theory. L200s are a little lacking in the highs. The horn rolls off on its own, that's why you are adding the 077 in the first place. The capacitor is wired I series with the 077, it really doesn't get any simpler. You can drill a new hole on the baffle or simply put the
077/2405 on top of the cabinet. It will make a nice improvement of your ears work up there. Have a great holiday and enjoy the music!

[Alobar]

With all due respect, I think you are over thinking this and this isn't the place to learn basic electronic theory. L200s are a little lacking in the highs. The horn rolls off on its own, that's why you are adding the 077 in the first place. The capacitor is wired I series with the 077, it really doesn't get any simpler. You can drill a new hole on the baffle or simply put the
077/2405 on top of the cabinet. It will make a nice improvement of your ears work up there. Have a great holiday and enjoy the music!
Thank you, I am going to try this. Just ordered the parts so now I have 7-10 day wait while that gets here. Think in the meanwhile I'll pull the 077's from the Jubals and make some sort of temporary bracket for them to sit on top of the Studio Masters. Then spend an extended period of time listening before breaking out the hole saw. Gotta be certain I want to do this!

I have no illusion that I'm creating some sort of facsimile of an L300. Just looking to make some improvements on what I already have.
Happy holidays!

[Mr. Widget]

Thank you, I am going to try this. Just ordered the parts so now I have 7-10 day wait while that gets here. Think in the meanwhile I'll pull the 077's from the Jubals and make some sort of temporary bracket for them to sit on top of the Studio Masters. Then spend an extended period of time listening before breaking out the hole saw. Gotta be certain I want to do this!

I have no illusion that I'm creating some sort of facsimile of an L300. Just looking to make some improvements on what I already have.
Happy holidays!Excellent approach. Adding the 077s will definitely be an upgrade and short of making a career of these speakers, this simple mod will take you a long way.


Happy Thanksgiving!


Widget

[Alobar]

Excellent approach. Adding the 077s will definitely be an upgrade and short of making a career of these speakers, this simple mod will take you a long way.


Happy Thanksgiving!


Widget

Thanks sir! I have the 077's removed from their former speakers and am trying to come up with some sort of clever bracket to fit them into. I am thinking as a possibility to mount them in the space just behind the grille and that way I wouldn't need to drill out a 3" hole. Seems like a shame to be thinking about taking a hole saw to these old L200 originals! I got to noticing they even have consecutive s/n's. :)

[BMWCCA]

Thanks sir! I have the 077's removed from their former speakers and am trying to come up with some sort of clever bracket to fit them into. I am thinking as a possibility to mount them in the space just behind the grille and that way I wouldn't need to drill out a 3" hole. Seems like a shame to be thinking about taking a hole saw to these old L200 originals! I got to noticing they even have consecutive s/n's. :)

You could try Lee's brackets (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34194-Stainless-steel-brackets-for-JBL-2402-and-2405-tweeters&highlight=) mounted on wooden blocks on top of the L200s before you decide to make a permanent modification.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/JBL%20parts%20factory/2405_Bracket_3.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Lee_Vuong/media/JBL%20parts%20factory/2405_Bracket_3.jpg.html)

[Alobar]

You could try Lee's brackets (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34194-Stainless-steel-brackets-for-JBL-2402-and-2405-tweeters&highlight=) mounted on wooden blocks on top of the L200s before you decide to make a permanent modification.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/JBL%20parts%20factory/2405_Bracket_3.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Lee_Vuong/media/JBL%20parts%20factory/2405_Bracket_3.jpg.html) Those would do very nicely! Don't know if he still has them but I sent a pm so we'll see. Thanks for the idea, had no idea that Jbl made them at one time.

[hjames]

Absolutely! I went that route for a while - with wooden blocks I lifted from grocery store banana Stand kits!
Highly recommend Lee's aluminium brackets! (I had an early pair in black)




You could try Lee's brackets (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34194-Stainless-steel-brackets-for-JBL-2402-and-2405-tweeters&highlight=) mounted on wooden blocks on top of the L200s before you decide to make a permanent modification.

[Alobar]

Just ordered the brackets from Lee! They look to be rock solid and a very precision fit. I thought about trying to fab something up, but by the time I bought a piece of aluminum, and then a hole saw I was already getting close to half way there and mine I just know would not look as good as Lee's SS ones.

[BMWCCA]

Black looks good, too! Don't remember those.