Everest DD66000 Going Active

[Brian DK]

I have a dream, going active on my DD66000.:)
At this point they are driven by a Krell FBP700cx.

The idea is to let the Krell handle both woofers.
And then some tubeamps for the top.

I have a Deqx with digital X-over.
That means that I can connect the tubeamps direct to the drivers.
Byt then I have the challange..

Both the 476be and the 045be has a very high sensitvity.
The 476be is 110db at 1 watt.
The 045 I dont know, byt probably around the same.?

This means that I need very littel Watts from the tubeamps to the horns.

So here is my real question :):)

what kind of tubeamps work with that small watts.?

Thinking three or four watts is enough?

Could Quicksilver be an option? And will they perform better than my Krell on the top?

Any ideas? :):):).

[LowPhreak]

Rule of thumb for me is I wouldn't want any discontinuity in sound between the SS and tube amps above the bass range (say 70-100Hz), or any two different amps unless from the same series/family, especially a speaker with the resolving ability that I assume the Everest has. Perhaps I'd give it a try on the outside woofer (up to 150Hz), but not on the mid-woofer (up to 700Hz) or higher.

[speakerdave]

. . . . Both the 476be and the 045be has a very high sensitvity.
The 476be is 110db at 1 watt.
The 045 I dont know, byt probably around the same.?

This means that I need very littel Watts from the tubeamps to the horns.

So here is my real question :):)

what kind of tubeamps work with that small watts.?

Thinking three or four watts is enough?

Could Quicksilver be an option? . . ..

The Quicksilver low gain horn mono blocks are an interesting idea which I have considered myself for a different, DIY, system, but I don't think you need them with the DD66000. Your question makes me think you would profit from a careful reading of pp27-29 of the owner's manual. Or, possibly, just consult with your dealer about what is needed and how to go about setting up a biamp operation.

[speakerdave]

Rule of thumb for me is I wouldn't want any discontinuity in sound between the SS and tube amps above the bass range (say 70-100Hz), or any two different amps unless from the same series/family, especially a speaker with the resolving ability that I assume the Everest has. Perhaps I'd give it a try on the outside woofer (up to 150Hz), but not on the mid-woofer (up to 700Hz) or higher.

It seems to me that in a hand off from a 150 gram 15 inch paper composite woofer cone to a 1 or 2 gram Be diaphragm there are already "discontinuities" of sound, and they are part of the reason for choosing different amplifiers.

[LowPhreak]

Sure, you may find different amps that compensate for some of that, but could exacerbate it in other ways. Or let's just throw some 2nd harmonics, distortions, and probably rolled-off top end and worse S/N ratio over the Be's and it would help? I don't know, it's possible to make an improvement I suppose if you get lucky with the right amp combos, and it might be fun to try.

My opinion though, and it's just one opinion, is I'd probably not bother.

[speakerdave]

Sure, you may find different amps that compensate for some of that, but could exacerbate it in other ways. Or let's just throw some 2nd harmonics, distortions, and probably rolled-off top end and worse S/N ratio over the Be's and it would help? I don't know, it's possible to make an improvement I suppose if you get lucky with the right amp combos, and it might be fun to try.

My opinion though, and it's just one opinion, is I'd probably not bother.

I see the identical amp recommendation frequently, probably rooted in user manuals, actually, and I'm guessing that it's for the reason you point out, that doing otherwise may involve some experimentation and multiple amp purchases, which many people would find extremely inconvenient. Personally, I've never had a problem combining truly good quality amps of different types.

Anyway, I think for the OP this part of the decision has already been made.

Of course disdain of tube amps really moots the whole question, right?

[Mr. Widget]

I have a dream, going active on my DD66000.:)
At this point they are driven by a Krell FBP700cx.

The idea is to let the Krell handle both woofers.
And then some tubeamps for the top.

I have a Deqx with digital X-over.
That means that I can connect the tubeamps direct to the drivers.
Byt then I have the challange..

Both the 476be and the 045be has a very high sensitvity.
The 476be is 110db at 1 watt.
The 045 I dont know, byt probably around the same.?
The DD66000s are designed to be easily biamped. Of course without modification they are meant to be used with their internal passive EQ compensation filters due to the nature of their constant directivity horns. Also be aware that you lose a lot of the output of the compression drivers because of this.

I realize that DEQX has the capability to digitally recreate not only the crossover slopes but also the necessary compensation curves. That said I would be hesitant to try to recreate these curves unless you consider yourself an expert user and have the capability to accurately measure the systems in a large room free of reflections. I would use the DEQX as a simple two-way crossover with the amps of your choice. You can then use DEQX for room correction and personal tuning.

I'm not sure what you would need for a high frequency amp, but I would think 10-40 wpc would make sense.


Widget

[Brian DK]

The Quicksilver low gain horn mono blocks are an interesting idea which I have considered myself for a different, DIY, system but I don't think you need them with the DD66000. Your question makes me think you would profit from a careful reading of pp27-29 of the owner's manual. Or, possibly, just consult with your dealer about what is needed and how to go about setting up a biamp operation.

I have read the manuel and are well aware of the biamp funktion.
But I dont want to use the internal x-over for the mid and high freq-drivers.
I dont see the point in having a 300Watts amp on a driver with a sensitivity at 110db,
with a big loss the x-over.
Instead of connecting a low watts amp direct to the driver, with no loss.

Or am I in over my head? :confused::):)

[Mr. Widget]

Sure, you may find different amps that compensate for some of that, but could exacerbate it in other ways. Or let's just throw some 2nd harmonics, distortions, and probably rolled-off top end and worse S/N ratio over the Be's and it would help? I don't know, it's possible to make an improvement I suppose if you get lucky with the right amp combos, and it might be fun to try.
I've heard plenty of tube amps that are distortion inducing devices as you suggest, but there are quite a few that are linear, low noise, low distortion devices. While they may not offer the "musical magic" some seem to think only tubes can offer, they sound great just like a high quality solid state design.


Widget

[speakerdave]

I have read the manuel and are well aware of the biamp funktion.
But I dont want to use the internal x-over for the mid and high freq-drivers.
I dont see the point in having a 300Watts amp on a driver with a sensitivity at 110db,
with a big loss the x-over.
Instead of connecting a low watts amp direct to the driver, with no loss.

Or am I in over my head? :confused::):)

What Widget said.

[Brian DK]

The DD66000s are designed to be easily biamped. Of course without modification they are meant to be used with their internal passive EQ compensation filters due to the nature of their constant directivity horns. Also be aware that you lose a lot of the output of the compression drivers because of this.

I realize that DEQX has the capability to digitally recreate not only the crossover slopes but also the necessary compensation curves. That said I would be hesitant to try to recreate these curves unless you consider yourself an expert user and have the capability to accurately measure the systems in a large room free of reflections. I would use the DEQX as a simple two-way crossover with the amps of your choice. You can then use DEQX for room correction and personal tuning.

I'm not sure what you would need for a high frequency amp, but I would think 10-40 wpc would make sense.

Widget


Hi Mr. Widget.

Ok - Do I understand you correct..?
If I use the Biamp funktion in the speaker, and 2 amps.
My 700 Watt Krell to the bottom.
And then only 10-40 Watt is enough for the high freq?

Do that mean that the level trim in the internal x-over is out of funktion?
otherwice I would think it is way to little power on the high freq? :confused:

[Mr. Widget]

Hi Mr. Widget.

Ok - Do I understand you correct..?
If I use the Biamp funktion in the speaker, and 2 amps.
My 700 Watt Krell to the bottom.
And then only 10-40 Watt is enough for the high freq?

Do that mean that the level trim in the internal x-over is out of funktion?
otherwice I would think it is way to little power on the high freq? :confused:How loud in dB do you typically play your speakers?


Widget

[maxserg]

Maybe this?:)

66674

[LowPhreak]

Of course disdain of tube amps really moots the whole question, right?


Not necessarily moot, since I've owned several tube amps & pre-amps that sounded very good. Even so, eventually I've found I'd rather remove distortions and non-linearities from amps, pres, sources than tolerate or cover them up.

I didn't derive my opinion from user manual recommendations, but from my own trials with various amps over the years bi-amping different speakers. I didn't have access to near-infinite models and combinations, but I usually liked tubes on top and SS on bottom best if the tube amp ran almost full range and SS for the low end as I said earlier.

YMMV.

[speakerdave]

Not necessarily moot, since I've owned several tube amps & pre-amps that sounded very good. Even so, eventually I've found I'd rather remove distortions and non-linearities from amps, pres, sources than tolerate or cover them up.

I didn't derive my opinion from user manual recommendations, but from my own trials with various amps over the years bi-amping different speakers. I didn't have access to near-infinite models and combinations, but I usually liked tubes on top and SS on bottom best if the tube amp ran almost full range and SS for the low end as I said earlier.

YMMV.

I think our experiences may be similar.

Well, Widget owns Everest II's, has probably heard more gear than most of the rest of us, and seems to have gotten the OP's attention.

[more10]

Because of the high sensitivity of the driver/horn combination, you will need to get a tube amp with very low noice.

Go for a push pull amp with some muscle. EL34 and the like will give you about 10-20 watts in class A. EL84 will give about 5-10 watt. Choose an amp with only two end tubes per channel, an amp with two EL34 is better than an amp with four EL84.

I believe the DEQX has FIR filters. If so you can build a phase linear system. It will sound fantastic.

Mårten

[audiomagnate]

The first thing I would do if i could afford a pair of 66000s would be to lower the crossover between the 476Be and the 045Be-1 down into the the audible range. Supersonic crossover points don't make sense to me, and I would think the improvement in dispersion up at the top would make an audible improvement.

[Brian DK]

How loud in dB do you typically play your speakers?


Widget

I dont know the exact DB - but I use the 700W very often.
of course mostly when the wife is out. :)

I must admit that I love when the Everest really kick ass :)
It's an awesom speaker..:applaud::applaud:

[Brian DK]

Because of the high sensitivity of the driver/horn combination, you will need to get a tube amp with very low noice.

Go for a push pull amp with some muscle. EL34 and the like will give you about 10-20 watts in class A. EL84 will give about 5-10 watt. Choose an amp with only two end tubes per channel, an amp with two EL34 is better than an amp with four EL84.

I believe the DEQX has FIR filters. If so you can build a phase linear system. It will sound fantastic.

Mårten

Hi Mårten.
Thank's for the input - I will look that way :)

[more10]

If you come to Stockholm I will introduce you to one of the most talented tube amp builders around. :-)

[Brian DK]

If you come to Stockholm I will introduce you to one of the most talented tube amp builders around. :-)

dont tempt me - I might just do that :D

[spkrman57]

I only use single ended tube amps for my horns. Currently I'm using EL34 SEPentode with 200WPC sand amp for the the bottom.

Most single ended amps are pure class A and will loaf along in fractions of a watt most of the time.

My favorite SETriode amps use 45 or 2A3 tubes and sound beautiful!

Just my 2 cents worth!

Regards, Ron

[LowPhreak]

The first thing I would do if i could afford a pair of 66000s would be to lower the crossover between the 476Be and the 045Be-1 down into the the audible range. Supersonic crossover points don't make sense to me, and I would think the improvement in dispersion up at the top would make an audible improvement.

I've often wondered about that too about JBL on some of these models. They have their reasons but even 12-15kHz would seem reasonable. Then I might have a chance to hear that expensive driver I'd paid for. :banghead:

[Mr. Widget]

I dont know the exact DB - but I use the 700W very often.
of course mostly when the wife is out. :)

I must admit that I love when the Everest really kick ass :)
It's an awesom speaker..:applaud::applaud:I would go with a 20-40 watt amp then. Even though the mid driver is very sensitive you will still want more than a couple of watts assuming you take my advice and keep the speaker stock and continue to use the built in passive compensation filters.

Even with the HF driver's sensitivity lowered due to the passive networks you will still only need this level of power even when clipping your Krell as most of the acoustic energy in music is at the lower frequencies... especially below 200-250Hz.


Widget

[Brian DK]

I would go with a 20-40 watt amp then. Even though the mid driver is very sensitive you will still want more than a couple of watts assuming you take my advice and keep the speaker stock and continue to use the built in passive compensation filters.

Even with the HF driver's sensitivity lowered due to the passive networks you will still only need this level of power even when clipping your Krell as most of the acoustic energy in music is at the lower frequencies... especially below 200-250Hz.


Widget

Widget, you have lost me :confused:

When I DONT biamp the Everest, and use only my Krell.
Then I send 700W into BOTH top and buttom.

But if I Biamp and still use the internal X-over, then I only need 20-40W.??
How is that?
If I understand it korrect, then the leveltrim is still on right?

I would asume that the 20-40W is only when I connect direct to the driver with no level trim.?

I hope it's not a stupid question, I am just lost. :):)

[more10]

You will need an amplifier with the same amplification ratio as the Krell. But since most energy is needed in the bass you don't need that much energy for high frequency.

If using the compensation part of the passive filters try to avoid using any resistive dampening parts.

I would try the DEQX auto calibration mode outdoors with only the passive filter between the supertweeter and horn in place.

[Mr. Widget]

I would try the DEQX auto calibration mode outdoors with only the passive filter between the supertweeter and horn in place.Nice in theory... ;)

Have you tried moving Everests? Their shape and weight makes them a real pain to move around... and the design with the sharp corners makes them prone to damage.

Beyond that I have used DEQX's auto calibration. I don't think it will generate a curve as accurate as the curve Greg Timbers created in the big JBL anechoic chamber.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Widget, you have lost me :confused:
I am assuming you would continue to use your Krell amp as the bass amp, DEQX as the crossover and a new 20-40 watt amp for the high frequencies.

Read the DD66000 owner's manual. It will tell you how to do this properly.


Widget

[more10]

Nice in theory... ;)

Have you tried moving Everests? Their shape and weight makes them a real pain to move around... and the design with the sharp corners makes them prone to damage.

Beyond that I have used DEQX's auto calibration. I don't think it will generate a curve as accurate as the curve Greg Timbers created in the big JBL anechoic chamber.


Widget

Now I understand why they are called flagSHIP speakers :D.

Maybe it is possible to manually make the same curve in the DEQX?

[Mr. Widget]

Maybe it is possible to manually make the same curve in the DEQX?I'm confident an expert DEQX user and master at taking measurements could do this. I'm also confident that very few DIYers will match or better the passive filters.


Widget