Studio 590's

[oznob]

Hello, I haven't posted in some time. I guess I didn't have much to contribute until now. I just purchased a new pair of Studio 590's and I have to say I am very impressed. I had an opportunity to audition a pair that belonged to a friend of a friend and that convinced me to try them. I am running them in a strictly two channel rig powered by a Yamaha A-S801 integrated amp. It's 100 watts per channel and sports a killer ESS DAC with CD and Pure Direct capabilities. I haven't got them to rattle the walls yet but the sound is punchy, accurate without a hint of being too bright. They really shine with vocals and acoustic guitar.

Another major reason I decided to buy them is they were designed by Greg Timbers, how could I go wrong! They do have an unconventional look but my wife actually likes them which is a major bonus. I highly recommended them.

[audiomagnate]

I like 'em too! Congrats on your purchase.

[oznob]

Thanks, if I hadn't been able to listen to a pair completely by accident, I would have never considered them.

On a side note, looks like I have been a member of The Forum for ten years this month. Wow, where did the time go? I have met and unfortunately lost some great friends along the way!

[BMWCCA]

I've never heard anyone say a bad word about them and I'd love to hear a pair. I've often recommended them based on the reports I've heard.
I keep thinking one day the Harman Tent Sale will sing a siren song of Studio 590 in my direction!

I'm likewise very impressed with the LSR305s I bought on 4313b's recommendation. For the money I can't believe there is anything that can touch them, and they include amps! JBL is really turning out some great new stuff they really aren't getting enough credit for, IMHO.

[oznob]

I got them from NewAudioVideo which is based out of Los Angeles. They also go by Best of Audio in North Hollywood. I was a bit concerned ordering from them as they get some bad press. They do have a lot of the new higher end JBL Synthesis products at pretty good discounts. I saved $700 off the $2K retail price for the pair. Living in the great state of California, I did have to pay sales tax and of course shipping. I still saved $500 off retail when the dust settled. The shipping was slow but they wrapped them well on a pallet and were delivered to my door without issues. I wish I could have sprung for the LS80's but couldn't justify the additional cost to m better half. It's OK, the 590's sound great!

[Dave_72]

I got them from NewAudioVideo which is based out of Los Angeles. They also go by Best of Audio in North Hollywood. I was a bit concerned ordering from them as they get some bad press. They do have a lot of the new higher end JBL Synthesis products at pretty good discounts. I saved $700 off the $2K retail price for the pair. Living in the great state of California, I did have to pay sales tax and of course shipping. I still saved $500 off retail when the dust settled. The shipping was slow but they wrapped them well on a pallet and were delivered to my door without issues. I wish I could have sprung for the LS80's but couldn't justify the additional cost to m better half. It's OK, the 590's sound great!

Nice! Thanks for the tip on the discounts.

As for the sound, one of our Las Vegas Audio Club http://lasvegasaudioclub.blogspot.com members had a pair, and they were pretty underwhelming. The other club members in attendance thought so too. Particularly to the top end, which was rolled off and diffuse as well as a lack of dynamics. The sound was just boomy, bloated, with muted highs. The system was comprised of all tube electronics, which might have been a problem, however the ancient Klipsch LaScalas he had were knockouts!

Also, has anyone else noticed that the Studio 590s are now part of the Synthesis lineup?

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/floorstanding-speakers/studio-590/

[1audiohack]

Big T has a pretty acoustically hostile room and the sub he was running I think helped the Lascalias but hurt the 590's

I can agree on the laid back highs but then again I am a large format metal tweeter guy. :)

I am glad you like them Oz.

Barry.

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks, if I hadn't been able to listen to a pair completely by accident, I would have never considered them. On a side note, looks like I have been a member of The Forum for ten years this month. Wow, where did the time go? I have met and unfortunately lost some great friends along the way!Welcome back... :D Congratulations on the new speakers, I think they look pretty cool. I've seen them in person a few times, but I have yet to hear a pair.

Yes the time does fly and we have lost a lot of good friends.


Widget

[oznob]

Thank you Mr. Widget, I appreciate the words of welcome. I remember meeting you briefly at Zilch's (RIP) place a few years ago. I think there was an issue over a horn/compression driver if memory serves.

I have not tried the 590's with a tube amp. I think they sounds great for my purposes in a second two channel system. My other speakers are a big pair of DIY two ways with JBL 2445j compression drivers and matching constant directivity horn. Woofer is a 15" Eminence and custom built crossovers. They are for sale but am having second thoughts. They have a bigger sound than the 590's, naturally, just not as accurate. They are awesome at reproducing live recordings. I will post a picture of one. Ignore the Pyle waveguide on top. They used to be three ways and are just filling the hole.

[LowPhreak]

Grats on the 590's, oznob! I bought mine in spring 2014, and posted a write-up on them here in November: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?36301-Studio-590&highlight=

See if you agree or not with some of my observations. The EQ settings I posted have changed slightly, since these are pretty flat across most of the midrange and highs. I notice the rise in the treble around 9kHz so I wouldn't call these particularly laid back, and a couple of dB cut there and at 480Hz sounds good in my set up.

Having owned a few tube amps, I'd say they aren't needed with 590's and 580's. Having horns doesn't automatically mean "tubes" and I think some people make that mistaken assumption. They aren't Klipsches (thank dawg!) and don't need to be thickened up in the bass or a layer of even-order harmonics thrown over them to sweeten the sound, (perhaps the Vegas group should have tried them with a SS front end). They don't shout at you with cupped hands or beam the highs like some Klipsch either.

Here's another FR plot I found:

66435

Enjoy!

[Dave_72]

Big T has a pretty acoustically hostile room and the sub he was running I think helped the Lascalias but hurt the 590's

I can agree on the laid back highs but then again I am a large format metal tweeter guy. :)

I am glad you like them Oz.

Barry.

Ok, granted. However, the 590s didn't give out much of anything except mush. Again, everyone was unanimous regarding the sound. And Big T ended up selling them as a result.

This is not to say they're bad speakers. I'm just relaying my experiences with them. I wouldn't mind checking them out again to be honest. :D

[Dave_72]

Grats on the 590's, oznob! I bought mine in spring 2014, and posted a write-up on them here in November: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?36301-Studio-590&highlight=

See if you agree or not with some of my observations. The EQ settings I posted have changed slightly, since these are pretty flat across most of the midrange and highs. I notice the rise in the treble around 9kHz so I wouldn't call these particularly laid back, and a couple of dB cut there and at 480Hz sounds good in my set up.

Having owned a few tube amps, I'd say they aren't needed with 590's and 580's. Having horns doesn't automatically mean "tubes" and I think some people make that mistaken assumption. They aren't Klipsches (thank dawg!) and don't need to be thickened up in the bass or a layer of even-order harmonics thrown over them to sweeten the sound, (perhaps the Vegas group should have tried them with a SS front end). They don't shout at you with cupped hands or beam the highs like some Klipsch either.

Here's another FR plot I found:

66435

Enjoy!


Well, it could have just have been a case of a lack of system synergy and a bad room. But still, the old beat up Klipsches sounded better and more realistic in that room and system than the shiny new JBLs...

[Dave_72]

Thank you Mr. Widget, I appreciate the words of welcome. I remember meeting you briefly at Zilch's (RIP) place a few years ago. I think there was an issue over a horn/compression driver if memory serves.

I have not tried the 590's with a tube amp. I think they sounds great for my purposes in a second two channel system. My other speakers are a big pair of DIY two ways with JBL 2445j compression drivers and matching constant directivity horn. Woofer is a 15" Eminence and custom built crossovers. They are for sale but am having second thoughts. They have a bigger sound than the 590's, naturally, just not as accurate. They are awesome at reproducing live recordings. I will post a picture of one. Ignore the Pyle waveguide on top. They used to be three ways and are just filling the hole.

Cool, enjoy.

[oznob]

Hey LowPhreak, my experience is the high end might be a bit laid back but I actually prefer that. My hearing isn't what it used to be and I am very sensitive to overly bright tweeters. That's one of the reasons I removed the Selenium Ti compression drivers out of the big DIY's. They were crossed at 10k hz and I was hearing what sounded like hiss and distortion. Of course the crossovers had to be modified. That 2445j covers a lot of territory so no tweeter was necessary to my ears. I did have to do quite a bit of positioning with the 590's. I have them about two feet from the rear wall, no side walls close and 8' apart with slight toe in. Listening position is around 8'. They throw kind of narrow soundstage but good depth and separation. I'm fresh out of tube amps but can borrow my friends old Sherwood 8000.

Dave 72, I am curious to know what tube amp(s) were used in your listening session? IMHO, the 590's sound is far from mush, oatmeal or any other breakfast cereal for that matter. I have had both home and pro versions of the La Scala. Except for the anemic bass, blaring mids and flat treble, they were fine. I'm not a Klipsch basher, I really like Cornwalls with quality tube gear.

[LowPhreak]

Well, it could have just have been a case of a lack of system synergy and a bad room. But still, the old beat up Klipsches sounded better and more realistic in that room and system than the shiny new JBLs...

Yeah, I'd say bad system choice is an understatement, and likely the placement and/or room had a lot to do with it. I'd also say that if the 590's were brand new (and LaScalas were not) then they needed time to run-in, since mine sounded wooly until they had a few days on them and the woofer impedance could reach nominal value. Mine are about as far from "...the 590s didn't give out much of anything except mush..." as I can think of. I'm surprised the so-called "audiophiles" in that group wrote them off so quickly without blaming not the speakers but the tube rig and/or perhaps syrupy analog source. (?)

But what does that say about tubes vs. SS, or LaScalas, or room placement and acoustics? (BTW, that's one of the reasons I don't do tubes anymore, and I've had some nice ones - ARC Classic 120 monos, Mesa Baron, Golden Tube SE-40, etc.) Had I been there, I might have posed the idea that the 590's were the more accurate in exposing the chain upstream while the LaScalas were the most colored and needed the most "help", including no bottom end below 50Hz and thus the sub was added, where the 590's go to the high 20's Hz and do fine with an EQ bump at 30Hz and no sub. But I guess with 100dB efficiency you can cover a lot of other sins. :dont-know:

[LowPhreak]

oz, yes I've found that good positioning really makes a difference with these, they're fairly picky about where they're put. Mine are about 3' from rear wall to front baffle, 57" from side walls to center of baffle, and 82" apart C-to-C. Toe-in just to where I can hear the top freqs at the chair 105" away, and both speakers are measured to be exactly the same.

Placing them with some room calculations and listening trials instead of "general" haphazard placement makes a big improvement. I've used the top port plugs occasionally to tame the upper bass just a tad with some recordings, but since I've dialed in positioning there's really no need for them.

Soundstage doesn't extend far beyond the outside of the cabs, but they are horns after all. Everything between though is done well.

[4313B]

It's been awhile. Congratulations on your purchase!


Another major reason I decided to buy them is they were designed by Greg Timbers, how could I go wrong!Yeah... there's that... I'm pretty sure he stopped designing shitty loudspeakers way back in the mid-seventies.


I'm not a Klipsch basher.I am. Hard as I might try, I cannot imagine some bizarre, freaky-assed alternate reality in which I would have much praise for a Klipsch loudspeaker. I shudder to think; C-R-E-E-P-Y! ;)

[oznob]

It's been awhile. Congratulations on your purchase!

Yeah... there's that... I'm pretty sure he stopped designing shitty loudspeakers way back in the mid-seventies.

I am. Hard as I might try, I cannot imagine some bizarre, freaky-assed alternate reality in which I would have much praise for a Klipsch loudspeaker. I shudder to think; C-R-E-E-P-Y! ;)

Thank you, I am very happy with the speakers and happy to be back. I did miss some of the drama and the straight talk.

My two ways are basically a copy of the Cornscala design with a couple of important variations. The main variation is the 2445j compression driver and horn. They are also constructed from 1" MDF with ample internal bracing. They are heavier than a dead Hippie! The Eminence woofer is 4 ohm and rear mounted. I want to replace it with an appropriate JBL driver but can't seem to find one that fits the parameters. I will likely post this question in the appropriate forum.

[Dave_72]

Yeah, I'd say bad system choice is an understatement, and likely the placement and/or room had a lot to do with it. I'd also say that if the 590's were brand new (and LaScalas were not) then they needed time to run-in, since mine sounded wooly until they had a few days on them and the woofer impedance could reach nominal value. Mine are about as far from "...the 590s didn't give out much of anything except mush..." as I can think of. I'm surprised the so-called "audiophiles" in that group wrote them off so quickly without blaming not the speakers but the tube rig and/or perhaps syrupy analog source. (?)

But what does that say about tubes vs. SS, or LaScalas, or room placement and acoustics? (BTW, that's one of the reasons I don't do tubes anymore, and I've had some nice ones - ARC Classic 120 monos, Mesa Baron, Golden Tube SE-40, etc.) Had I been there, I might have posed the idea that the 590's were the more accurate in exposing the chain upstream while the LaScalas were the most colored and needed the most "help", including no bottom end below 50Hz and thus the sub was added, where the 590's go to the high 20's Hz and do fine with an EQ bump at 30Hz and no sub. But I guess with 100dB efficiency you can cover a lot of other sins. :dont-know:

Here's the article in our blog. In there is a link to the full list of equipment.

http://lasvegasaudioclub.blogspot.com/2014/10/our-fourteenth-meeting.html

So-called audiophiles? Who are you to judge us. I'm not judging you. You have no right to call us that. :(

The fact of the matter is this, The Klipsches sounded better in that room and in that system. The JBLs stunk. That's it.

What do you want me to do, lie to you?!

[Mctwins]

Hallo!

Oznob....you have a great speakers :applaud:

I have listen to these speakers and it sounded very good to me.

[LowPhreak]

Here's the article in our blog. In there is a link to the full list of equipment.

http://lasvegasaudioclub.blogspot.com/2014/10/our-fourteenth-meeting.html

So-called audiophiles? Who are you to judge us. I'm not judging you. You have no right to call us that. :(

The fact of the matter is this, The Klipsches sounded better in that room and in that system. The JBLs stunk. That's it.

What do you want me to do, lie to you?!


I saw that post back when it happened and some of the remarks made about the 590's but I refrained from saying much about it then. Frankly, I thought it was a piss poor conclusion about a decent speaker model and that as a group of supposedly informed, experienced audiophiles you guys could have done better.

I don't want to get into an argument here, but it seems kind of obvious, doesn't it?

Along with the room, positioning, and front-end you had, I'd say too that if those 590's had not been run-in for several dozen hours, then the response you heard was likely similar to what I heard when mine were new, and I'd guess that a tube upstream would only have exacerbated it. I also heard this effect on 2 new pairs of 580's before I returned them to JBL because of cabinet damage, as I posted in another thread, (hence my interest in McTwins' new 4365's and the woofer impedance values he was going to get but didn't). People can argue this point all day but I know what I heard by direct, side-by-side comparison of two identical speaker pairs, and the 590's. I'm assuming the Vegas 590's had not been run-in but I could be wrong.

If they hadn't been, then I'd have thought any audiophile group worth its salt would only bring components that'd had a reasonable break-in period, and then a warm-up before critical listening. That's S.O.P. where I come from. Whether or not some believe that break-in is an actual thing, at least those variables and possible controversy could have been avoided.

Break-in may not have been the culprit at all, but as others have said, the 590's have gotten near universally good marks so naturally the Vegas group's finding seemed strange to me. I'll assure you that if what I've heard from these speakers had been anywhere near as bad as what you've said, they'd have been here about long enough to go back on the pallet to Northridge.

I wasn't there of course, but the member you mentioned, "Big T", may have sold himself short by selling the 590's without having heard them properly set up, and just opinion but may have succumbed to a bit of groupthink as well. That's the gist I got from the whole thing anyway.

[Mctwins]

I saw that post back when it happened and some of the remarks made about the 590's but I refrained from saying much about it then. Frankly, I thought it was a piss poor conclusion about a decent speaker model and that as a group of supposedly informed, experienced audiophiles you guys could have done better.

I don't want to get into an argument here, but it seems kind of obvious, doesn't it?

Along with the room, positioning, and front-end you had, I'd say too that if those 590's had not been run-in for several dozen hours, then the response you heard was likely similar to what I heard when mine were new, and I'd guess that a tube upstream would only have exacerbated it. I also heard this effect on 2 new pairs of 580's before I returned them to JBL, as I posted in another thread, (hence my interest in McTwins' new 4365's and the woofer impedance values he was going to get but didn't). People can argue this point all day but I know what I heard by direct, side-by-side comparison of two identical speaker pairs, and the 590's. I'm assuming the Vegas 590's had not been run-in but I could be wrong.

If they hadn't been, then I'd have thought any audiophile group worth its salt would only bring components that'd had a reasonable break-in period, and then a warm-up before critical listening. That's S.O.P. where I come from. Whether or not some believe that break-in is an actual thing, at least those variables and possible controversy could have been eliminated.

It may not have been that, but as others have said, the 590's have gotten near universally good marks so naturally the Vegas group's finding seemed strange to me. I'll assure you that if what I've heard from these speakers had been anywhere near as bad as what you've said, they'd have been here about long enough to go back on the pallet to Northridge.

I wasn't there of course, but the member you mentioned, "Big T", may have sold himself short by selling the 590's without having heard them properly set up, and just opinion but may have succumbed to a bit of groupthink as well. That's the gist I got from the whole thing anyway.

Hallo!

I have to agree with you here. If you take a new speaker out of the box and compare the same speaker model, there must be some difference, This I can accept.

If we are talking about Pro JBL where they are doing their torture test for 100hours, I consider them to be broken in.

So, it is a poor test they are doing at the Vegas group.

As a end-user, you don't go around and test things. You just run them in and then enjoy the music.

[Don C]

Hi Fi News has looked at the Arena 170 this month, and ran into some quality problems. One speaker measured about 4db less than the other in the important mid-range area.
Lets consider that possibility that everyone here is reporting the truth as they hear it, and that due to possible QC issues, along with room and equipment differences, no one is wrong.

[Dave_72]

Hallo!

I have to agree with you here. If you take a new speaker out of the box and compare the same speaker model, there must be some difference, This I can accept.

If we are talking about Pro JBL where they are doing their torture test for 100hours, I consider them to be broken in.

So, it is a poor test they are doing at the Vegas group.

As a end-user, you don't go around and test things. You just run them in and then enjoy the music.

The 590s aren't pro JBL. They started off being a part of the consumer line, and recently got bumped up to Synthesis.

How do you know it's a poor test? Were you there?

[Dave_72]

Hi Fi News has looked at the Arena 170 this month, and ran into some quality problems. One speaker measured about 4db less than the other in the important mid-range area.
Lets consider that possibility that everyone here is reporting the truth as they hear it, and that due to possible QC issues, along with room and equipment differences, no one is wrong.

Thank you.

[Dave_72]

I saw that post back when it happened and some of the remarks made about the 590's but I refrained from saying much about it then. Frankly, I thought it was a piss poor conclusion about a decent speaker model and that as a group of supposedly informed, experienced audiophiles you guys could have done better.

I don't want to get into an argument here, but it seems kind of obvious, doesn't it?

Along with the room, positioning, and front-end you had, I'd say too that if those 590's had not been run-in for several dozen hours, then the response you heard was likely similar to what I heard when mine were new, and I'd guess that a tube upstream would only have exacerbated it. I also heard this effect on 2 new pairs of 580's before I returned them to JBL because of cabinet damage, as I posted in another thread, (hence my interest in McTwins' new 4365's and the woofer impedance values he was going to get but didn't). People can argue this point all day but I know what I heard by direct, side-by-side comparison of two identical speaker pairs, and the 590's. I'm assuming the Vegas 590's had not been run-in but I could be wrong.

If they hadn't been, then I'd have thought any audiophile group worth its salt would only bring components that'd had a reasonable break-in period, and then a warm-up before critical listening. That's S.O.P. where I come from. Whether or not some believe that break-in is an actual thing, at least those variables and possible controversy could have been avoided.

Break-in may not have been the culprit at all, but as others have said, the 590's have gotten near universally good marks so naturally the Vegas group's finding seemed strange to me. I'll assure you that if what I've heard from these speakers had been anywhere near as bad as what you've said, they'd have been here about long enough to go back on the pallet to Northridge.

I wasn't there of course, but the member you mentioned, "Big T", may have sold himself short by selling the 590's without having heard them properly set up, and just opinion but may have succumbed to a bit of groupthink as well. That's the gist I got from the whole thing anyway.


Your insulting and condescending behavior is something that I take offense to. So the mighty JBL designed by the mighty Greg Timbers was bested by an old rickety rackety Kilpsch. Oh my goodness the worlds come to an end! That's basically your attitude, pal, and now you're on the prowl like some sort of deranged pit bull by attacking me and my colleagues in the Las Vegas Audio Club. Question: Who the Hell are you to judge anyone or anything? And the bottom line is that you like McTwins, weren't there so shutup until you get there. Finally, you're assuming everything and just talking out of your derriere.

[4313B]

Your insulting and condescending behavior is something that I take offense to. So the mighty JBL designed by the mighty Greg Timbers was bested by an old rickety rackety Kilpsch. Oh my goodness the worlds come to an end! That's basically your attitude, pal, and now you're on the prowl like some sort of deranged pit bull by attacking me and my colleagues in the Las Vegas Audio Club. Question: Who the Hell are you to judge anyone or anything? And the bottom line is that you like McTwins, weren't there so shutup until you get there. Finally, you're assuming everything and just talking out of your derriere.I'm just glad that I am not a member of your group. :)
From my perspective you have discredited your entire gang in this thread. I actually feel kind of bad for you guys. :o: It's like watching a "fail" video on YouTube, only not nearly as much fun without the visuals. :applaud:

I also think it is hilarious that Oznob comes back to this website after a long hiatus to discover that it is "business as usual". :rotfl:

In any case, I think it is pretty cool that Oznob bought a pair of 590s and that he likes them. :)

As far as Greg goes, yes, he is pretty legendary. If one of his designs appeared to be lacking in some way I would do my best to find out why. In your specific case I would start with the room, the electronics and the level of drug and alcohol use. La Scala's have always been able to cut through some pretty hazy shit man. I've seen dead people wince when those things crank up. The JBL's might simply be too refined.

[rdgrimes]

Lets consider that possibility that everyone here is reporting the truth as they hear it, and that due to possible QC issues, along with room and equipment differences, no one is wrong.
The greater possibility is that this is just another garden variety pissing match and no one is right.

[4313B]

The greater possibility is that this is just another garden variety pissing match and no one is right.Yeah, Harman invests millions of dollars in R&D so some pile of shit La Scala can knock their dick in the dirt... :rotfl: :applaud:





Seriously? Klipsch? You clowns kill me. :p

[oznob]

Did I mention I missed some of the drama??? I'm not one, as a general rule, to incite this type of discourse. Suffice it to say I am very happy with the 590's thus far and considering the bookshelf 530's for my bedroom system.

Dave 72, It looks like the equipment used for the testing is top quality. If I ever went back to tube gear, it would be McIntosh. One question, when doing the A/B, was the volume compensated for the lesser efficient 590's? An old Klipsch salesman told me they used to not increase the volume when doing demo's of other brands. To the unknowing consumer, the Klipsch would sound more open and "better" as it was naturally louder. I fell victim to this at Turntables Unlimited in Sacramento back in the day.

[BMWCCA]

Did I mention I missed some of the drama???

Yes, and thank you for not perpetuating it in your reply. :applaud:

I ignore the worst so I can enjoy the best of this site!

[1audiohack]

Wow! Hasn't this turned into something?!?

Since I was at the LaScala-590 get together I guess I am involved in this. It seems like everyone else has shared their perspective so I am going to share mine, unsolicited and all.

When invited as a guest into someones home, I do not think it proper and would not think of saying anything negative or suggest the host do or move or try to adjust anything etc etc. I at least was not invited to test or judge or help fix or or or, I was invited to come share a couple of hours of music and friendship in the home of someone I had not previously met.

This was not a "lets get together and see what we can make out of this gear" event.

Personally I had a great time, I heard some music and gear that I had never heard before and enjoyed the company for the most part.

Do I have opinions on the gear, the room, the program material, the pizza and temperature of the Coke? I sure do, and I am keeping them to myself.

Suffice it to say that sometimes you go hear stuff that you really like, and sometimes you hear stuff that reinforces the love for the stuff you own. In the end? I don't even get how this kind of thing even gets from there to here. I like what I like and so do you all. Why can't that just be it? He didn't ask anyones opinion and look where we are now.

Again oznob I am glad you got something you like. Having a second reference that I like in the house always gave me direction for my DIY projects. I hope you still have fun with them also.

Barry.

[LowPhreak]

Your insulting and condescending behavior is something that I take offense to. So the mighty JBL designed by the mighty Greg Timbers was bested by an old rickety rackety Kilpsch. Oh my goodness the worlds come to an end! That's basically your attitude, pal, and now you're on the prowl like some sort of deranged pit bull by attacking me and my colleagues in the Las Vegas Audio Club. Question: Who the Hell are you to judge anyone or anything? And the bottom line is that you like McTwins, weren't there so shutup until you get there. Finally, you're assuming everything and just talking out of your derriere.

The conclusions your group reached about the 590's I know wasn't the speaker's fault. It isn't about G.T. or Klipsch or McIntosh. They simply may not have been a good match with that rig or room and other issues mentioned. I can judge that from 15 months experience with the speakers myself (listening to them now) and about 4 decades in this hobby.

No one was "on the prowl" Dave but you, considering some of the provocative things you've posted. I also said I wasn't interested in an argument with you, which seems to be something you troll for on a regular basis around here lately.

Honestly, this dust up has made you all look half-assed, (excepting audiohack since he wasn't involved in the config or set-up). Why don't you do everyone a favor and next time, the LVAC gets their act together before they post any more reviews?


Edit:


The 590s aren't pro JBL. They started off being a part of the consumer line, and recently got bumped up to Synthesis.


FWIW - Not so recent. They were in the Synthesis line when I first bought 580's in April '14.

[4313B]

Since I was at the LaScala-590 get together I guess I am involved in this.You have my sympathy.


Wow! Hasn't this turned into something?!?I had to re-read the following for the fourth time and I actually laughed this time. I guess it takes several reads to become funny. :)


As for the sound, one of our Las Vegas Audio Club http://lasvegasaudioclub.blogspot.com members had a pair, and they were pretty underwhelming. The other club members in attendance thought so too. Particularly to the top end, which was rolled off and diffuse as well as a lack of dynamics. The sound was just boomy, bloated, with muted highs. The system was comprised of all tube electronics, which might have been a problem, however the ancient Klipsch LaScalas he had were knockouts!


So yeah, I probably overreacted with respect to the first three times I read it. This fourth time I just laughed and thought "What a bunch of t@@@skis..." :)


However, the 590s didn't give out much of anything except mush. Again, everyone was unanimous regarding the sound. And Big T ended up selling them as a result.
This is not to say they're bad speakers. I'm just relaying my experiences with them. I wouldn't mind checking them out again to be honest. :D

Ok :blink: Any loudspeaker that doesn't give out much of anything except mush is usually considered bad.


No one was "on the prowl" Dave but you, considering some of the provocative things you've posted. I also said I wasn't interested in an argument with you, which seems to be something you troll for on a regular basis around here lately.Yep...


An old Klipsch salesman told me they used to not increase the volume when doing demo's of other brands. To the unknowing consumer, the Klipsch would sound more open and "better" as it was naturally louder. I fell victim to this at Turntables Unlimited in Sacramento back in the day.It wasn't just Klipsch Dealers who pulled that stunt.


Speaking of Klipsch, many years ago I worked for a rather progressive company that allowed employees to do up their offices however they pleased. My two buddies and I moved a pair of Klipsch La Scala's into our office along with our collections of albums and played those things into the ground (the office room we shared was plenty big enough for the three of us and the two of them, slanted vault ceiling to boot). During the day they obviously had to be kept pretty low but after 6 PM all bets were off. We'd often stay at work until 10 or 11 at night. Good times.

[LowPhreak]

Ok :blink: Any loudspeaker that doesn't give out much of anything except mush is usually considered bad.



Leave me alone while I eat my Cream of Wheat, gotdammit! :thnkfast:


As you said - anything designed by someone as capable as G.T. that sounds that bad obviously indicates a problem somewhere. Why would a group of "audiophiles" post something so ridiculous without having investigated further? I might have given up early too with a few beers & pizza in me and LaScalas & a sub blaring 12' away.

"The girls all look prettier at closing time" effect? I'll ask McTwins if his Crown gear can measure that next time. :thmbsup:



A little story:

I had a friend who was co-owner of a high-end shop near Albany, NY in the 90's. That was where I heard the big B&W Matrix 800's, M-L Monoliths and Quests, several Apogees, big Thiels and Wilsons, and they had some K-horns lurking in the corners in one room. :p

Anyway, he had Apogee Scintillas (I had the little Stages then, Logan CLS IIa's, and Maggie 2.6R's). He loved the 'tillas and wouldn't part with them, but could never keep an amp long because they'd burn up every amp he tried (killer impedance & current demands), and he had the pick of stuff from Adcom, B&K, Classe', Krell, that big Theta (Dreadnought?), among other stuff that went through the shop I don't recall. If an amp didn't blow fuses or fail outright, then the 'tillas generally sounded fairly "meh" most of the time.

We all knew, as he eventually accepted, that he'd have to lose an arm and 3 legs if he wanted to keep the 'tillas. Finally fed up, he broke the bank and got 4 big Krell monos - among the few amps then that would drive them. They sounded great after that, but none of the guys blamed the Scintillas before he got the arc welders - since we knew it wasn't a fault with the speakers.


I'll quit now and go back to my mush. TYVM! :wave:

[1audiohack]

Leave me alone while I eat my Cream of Wheat, gotdammit! :thnkfast:

.... :wave:


Now that's hella funny!

Barry.

[oznob]

I put the 590's through kind of digital torture test today. I'm using a new Yamaha A-S801 integrated amp with built in ESS SABER DAC. No one else home so they were Rockin'! I got fast attack, crystal clear highs on better recordings and thumping bass. No Cream of Wheat for breakfast today! My grandmother always had Cream of Wheat and I really liked it as a kid. I did have to kill it with milk and sugar but, I digress. IMHO, given the right source and amplification, these speakers ROCK!

[BMWCCA]

No Cream of Wheat for breakfast today! My grandmother always had Cream of Wheat and I really liked it as a kid. I did have to kill it with milk and sugar but, I digress. IMHO, given the right source and amplification, these speakers ROCK!
Thanks for the review.

I might suggest you try the Hot Oat Bran cereal. All the taste of Cream of Wheat with the added health benefit of oats. ;)

[Dave_72]

I'm just glad that I am not a member of your group. :)
From my perspective you have discredited your entire gang in this thread. I actually feel kind of bad for you guys. :o: It's like watching a "fail" video on YouTube, only not nearly as much fun without the visuals. :applaud:

I also think it is hilarious that Oznob comes back to this website after a long hiatus to discover that it is "business as usual". :rotfl:

In any case, I think it is pretty cool that Oznob bought a pair of 590s and that he likes them. :)

As far as Greg goes, yes, he is pretty legendary. If one of his designs appeared to be lacking in some way I would do my best to find out why. In your specific case I would start with the room, the electronics and the level of drug and alcohol use. La Scala's have always been able to cut through some pretty hazy shit man. I've seen dead people wince when those things crank up. The JBL's might simply be too refined.

Good we don't want antagonistic rubes such as yourself.

Not quite. Your perspective is null and void.

Again, you weren't there to hear them and the LsScalas side by side.

So, be gone with your silly argument.

As far as Greg goes, I was being facetious. He has my respect, as he should.

[Dave_72]

Wow! Hasn't this turned into something?!?

Since I was at the LaScala-590 get together I guess I am involved in this. It seems like everyone else has shared their perspective so I am going to share mine, unsolicited and all.

When invited as a guest into someones home, I do not think it proper and would not think of saying anything negative or suggest the host do or move or try to adjust anything etc etc. I at least was not invited to test or judge or help fix or or or, I was invited to come share a couple of hours of music and friendship in the home of someone I had not previously met.

This was not a "lets get together and see what we can make out of this gear" event.

Personally I had a great time, I heard some music and gear that I had never heard before and enjoyed the company for the most part.

Do I have opinions on the gear, the room, the program material, the pizza and temperature of the Coke? I sure do, and I am keeping them to myself.

Suffice it to say that sometimes you go hear stuff that you really like, and sometimes you hear stuff that reinforces the love for the stuff you own. In the end? I don't even get how this kind of thing even gets from there to here. I like what I like and so do you all. Why can't that just be it? He didn't ask anyones opinion and look where we are now.

Again oznob I am glad you got something you like. Having a second reference that I like in the house always gave me direction for my DIY projects. I hope you still have fun with them also.

Barry.

Thanks Barry, you're truly one of the few (emphasis on few) class acts on this board.

[Dave_72]

The conclusions your group reached about the 590's I know wasn't the speaker's fault. It isn't about G.T. or Klipsch or McIntosh. They simply may not have been a good match with that rig or room and other issues mentioned. I can judge that from 15 months experience with the speakers myself (listening to them now) and about 4 decades in this hobby.

No one was "on the prowl" Dave but you, considering some of the provocative things you've posted. I also said I wasn't interested in an argument with you, which seems to be something you troll for on a regular basis around here lately.

Honestly, this dust up has made you all look half-assed, (excepting audiohack since he wasn't involved in the config or set-up). Why don't you do everyone a favor and next time, the LVAC gets their act together before they post any more reviews?


Edit:



FWIW - Not so recent. They were in the Synthesis line when I first bought 580's in April '14.

Yeah, you said so...after you attacked me and my colleagues...

From post #15:
I'm surprised the so-called "audiophiles"You see, that's where I draw the line. I don't care much about your views on our opinions of the 590s. You stepped over the line and attacked myself and my colleagues in the LVAC.

We are dedicated and experienced audiophiles. We don't need your seal of approval.

This is the reason for the argument. Nothing more, nothing less.

[LowPhreak]

Yeah, you said so...after you attacked me and my colleagues...

From post #15:
I'm surprised the so-called "audiophiles"You see, that's where I draw the line. I don't care much about your views on our opinions of the 590s. You stepped over the line and attacked myself and my colleagues in the LVAC.

We are dedicated and experienced audiophiles. We don't need your seal of approval.

This is the reason for the argument. Nothing more, nothing less.

OK Dave, I'll say it once more:

You or your group's bashing of the 590's (and your own jabs at JBL and Greg) was at best premature and amateurish - to what's considered by many to be a very good sounding model.

Most "dedicated and experienced audiophiles" as you put it would probably have thought better of just plugging in apparently raw, unbroken speakers to whatever was there, plopping them anywhere on the floor, and then proclaiming they sounded terrible - with no further attempts to find out why. Really? That's dedication and experience?

:lol_fit:

My old audio "colleagues" would have laughed you right the hell outta here. For christsakes get a grip and stop digging.

[oznob]

I'm hoping Mr. Widget or another administrator/moderator can lock this thread. In my opinion, it has gotten way off topic and way out of hand. I appreciate the insight and constructive comments by informed and mature members. Thanks to the comments and opinion of Dave 72, I'm off to buy an ancient pair of La Scala's for my music system and anchor chains for the 590's! As 4315B said, it's business as usual which is very disappointing. Suffice it to say, I'm back on hiatus.

[1audiohack]

Oh sure! Stop by once every five years and get it all stirred up around here and then leave!! :D Haha.

Hey all the best!

Barry.

[Mr. Widget]

I'm hoping Mr. Widget or another administrator/moderator can lock this thread. In my opinion, it has gotten way off topic and way out of hand. I appreciate the insight and constructive comments by informed and mature members. Thanks to the comments and opinion of Dave 72, I'm off to buy an ancient pair of La Scala's for my music system and anchor chains for the 590's! As 4315B said, it's business as usual which is very disappointing. Suffice it to say, I'm back on hiatus.There was a time when I would drill down through a thread like this where someone or a group of folks started shoveling sh!t and I would try to salvage the useful... I just don't have the time or energy these days.

It is too bad that some people insist on behaving the way they do.


Widget

[LowPhreak]

Hey Oz, in case you're still here...

Speaking of digital testing as it were, I was going to say (before I got interrupted earlier) that I've noticed the channel I listen to regularly online, www.radioparadise.com (http://www.radioparadise.com), has been sounding increasingly better. The guy and his wife do a lot to get the best sound they can and they have a great format IMO.

We've e-mailed before about this, so I e-mailed him again yesterday and he wrote back:



Hi Art,


I've made a few tweaks to our signal processing, though it's still the same gear. About a year ago, I introduced the ability for me to tag songs with a playback level value, boosting the level of some older recordings by as much as 4db, and reducing the level of some heavily-compressed newer recordings by as much as -6db. This allowed me to greatly reduce the amount of overall gain control on our stream. That's a pretty significant change. I have also made a number of improvements to our source files over the past 2 years or so, often replacing older versions with remastered versions.


If you're listening via one of our apps on iOS or Android, I'm in the middle of a really major overhaul of the audio quality. Rather than applying global audio processing, each sound file is processed individually for uniformity in level & spectral density -- meaning virtually no processing at all other than overall level control in the case of modern masters, and a tailored bit of de-facto remastering of my own on older recordings. It sounds quite nice, I think. Currently about 50% of teh song files are hand-tweaked in the way they all will be by the end of this year or so -- the others are adjusted according to a less-accurate bit of automated guesswork.

...

...and so on.

Anyway, the 590's bring out everything they've been doing to improve their feed, and I've heard it every step of the way. It sounds pretty damned good now, but he'd like me to A/B and critique his newer 320k AAC stream against the 192k stream I've been using, but I don't use Android or iOS. If you do, maybe you should check it out: http://stream-tx3.radioparadise.com/aac-320 and see if you can run it through the speakers. Bill says it makes quite an audible difference.

Hope to see you back soon! :)

[4313B]

I'm hoping Mr. Widget or another administrator/moderator can lock this thread. In my opinion, it has gotten way off topic and way out of hand. I appreciate the insight and constructive comments by informed and mature members. Thanks to the comments and opinion of Dave 72, I'm off to buy an ancient pair of La Scala's for my music system and anchor chains for the 590's! As 4315B said, it's business as usual which is very disappointing. Suffice it to say, I'm back on hiatus.Aww, that's too bad. :( Do svidaniya!

the top end, which was rolled off and diffuse as well as a lack of dynamics. The sound was just boomy, bloated, with muted highs

the 590s didn't give out much of anything except mush. Again, everyone was unanimous regarding the sound. And Big T ended up selling them as a result.

This is not to say they're bad speakers.

Maybe if you can block out all the other duplicitous bullshit and concentrate on the last sentence you can keep the 590's?
I'd really hate to see you flagellate yourself with an old pair of La Scala's.
They were fine back when we were teenagers and didn't know any better but they're not really meant for mature adults unshackled from nostalgia. ;)

I went the other way. As soon as I saw a gaggle of colleagues bashing the 590's I suggested to my brother in law that he purchase a pair.
I also suggested that he post his purchase on this board so he can laugh at any potential backlash. :)

[Dave_72]

OK Dave, I'll say it once more:

You or your group's bashing of the 590's (and your own jabs at JBL and Greg) was at best premature and amateurish - to what's considered by many to be a very good sounding model.

Most "dedicated and experienced audiophiles" as you put it would probably have thought better of just plugging in apparently raw, unbroken speakers to whatever was there, plopping them anywhere on the floor, and then proclaiming they sounded terrible - with no further attempts to find out why. Really? That's dedication and experience?

:lol_fit:

My old audio "colleagues" would have laughed you right the hell outta here. For christsakes get a grip and stop digging.

Your defense is like a house of cards. And you keep insulting myself and my colleagues. Again, we were giving our opinion, which we have the right to do. The former owner himself was not enamored, and actually had lived with the speakers for months, and still decided to sell them.

I don't recall making any personal jabs at JBL or Greg. If I did, then I apologize.

What I see here in this forum is a massive double standard. In other words it's OK to "bash" my S4700s and tell me there's no such thing as long break in periods. And as far as I know, it's considered to be a really good sounding model too. However, if I "bash" the 590s and don't give them a chance because of lack of break in, then "I'm" wrong? Come on, you think you're talking to some kid here. I may not be as old as you, but I'm 43, not 16. Also, there's this notion that only your opinion counts here and mine doesn't. That's pretty funny actually.

You say you guys are laughing? Well, I'm laughing right along with you. Because your actions are ludicrous at best.

I could make this real easy and leave this place, but I have every right to be here as you do. So I'm staying whether you like it or not.

You know, I thought audio was supposed to be fun and educational hobby. Some of you try to make it a nightmare for others, and then you wonder why this hobby doesn't get enough traction. Look in the mirror, whydon'tcha?

[Dave_72]

There was a time when I would drill down through a thread like this where someone or a group of folks started shoveling sh!t and I would try to salvage the useful... I just don't have the time or energy these days.

It is too bad that some people insist on behaving the way they do.


Widget

Well, I hope you see that I'm getting ganged up in this thread. It's not a fair fight in other words. :(

[1audiohack]

Dave this is crazy.

Imagine being with a group of people, like at a party. A guy comes in and introduces his wife, with whom he is pleased and loves. While well within earshot, someone in the group says something like: What does he see in her? Her topend is laid back and she has a soggy bloated bottom. Just a bucket of mush really.

Those are fighting words in my world. The guy never asked for an opinion. Oz showed up to share his delight with his new speakers. What good could stating that not everyone likes them do? Like the party scenario, this has provoked a like negative response that now has you on both the offensive and defensive. Quite frankly, your choice mode of entry into this thread has placed you in an indefensible position.

You are right that your opinions are yours and you have the right to share them, even unsolicited.

OK, Miss Manners has spoken her piece.

Barry.

[Mr. Widget]

Well, I hope you see that I'm getting ganged up in this thread. It's not a fair fight in other words. :(Actually, no I do not see it that way.

But rather than trying to assign blame, let's just drop the subject!


Widget

[Dave_72]

Dave this is crazy.

Imagine being with a group of people, like at a party. A guy comes in and introduces his wife, with whom he is pleased and loves. While well within earshot, someone in the group says something like: What does he see in her? Her topend is laid back and she has a soggy bloated bottom. Just a bucket of mush really.

Those are fighting words in my world. The guy never asked for an opinion. Oz showed up to share his delight with his new speakers. What good could stating that not everyone likes them do? Like the party scenario, this has provoked a like negative response that now has you on both the offensive and defensive. Quite frankly, your choice mode of entry into this thread has placed you in an indefensible position.

You are right that your opinions are yours and you have the right to share them, even unsolicited.

OK, Miss Manners has spoken her piece.

Barry.


Ok man, I see what you mean. I apologize to oznob if I insulted him. No one's perfect, and I'm far from it. And that's about it. Thanks again.

Anyway, I'm more than willing to give the Studio 590s another chance. Just because I found them to be lackluster, I might think they're fantastic in another audition.

The end.

[BMWCCA]

Remember, it's only the Internet. Hard to convey emotions yet easy to infer nuances that were never intended.

I'm thinking we've ended this on a note of civility and now we can all go back to being, if not friends, a community with shared interests and goals. But I could be dreaming! :dont-know:

"Fake but Fun" was could have been just a euphemism for "boomy, bloated, with muted highs [and not] much of anything except mush".
A well-turned phrase that apparently offended no one.

[oznob]

1audiohack, thank you for eloquently expressing some of feelings about this thread. One issue is someone giving, in essence, a review on an item that they do not own or have a lot of experience with. When I review something, it has been in my room, with my equipment and extensive listening has been done. That way I can base my review more accurately and intelligently. If I do an A/B of speakers, I am always mindful to compensate for different efficiency and sensitivity. One great way to experience this is to go car speaker shopping. A whole wall of various speakers to choose from and, inevitably, the best sound will be the loudest/more efficient. That is until they turn the volume up.

Mr. Widget, I do believe this a dead horse so I will not be posting again.

Dave 72, I was not wanting or expecting an apology from you but I appreciate it in the context it was given.

Thank you to everyone else who made positive and useful comments.

In the words of Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."

[4313B]

:cheers:

[DavidF]

"...
Anyway, the 590's bring out everything they've been doing to improve their feed, and I've heard it every step of the way. It sounds pretty damned good now, but he'd like me to A/B and critique his newer 320k AAC stream against the 192k stream I've been using, but I don't use Android or iOS. If you do, maybe you should check it out: http://stream-tx3.radioparadise.com/aac-320 and see if you can run it through the speakers. Bill says it makes quite an audible difference..."



Off topic but perhaps a good thing, in context. How do you access the channel? I am inexperienced in streaming but want to see if I can work something up via internet-network-player. This may be a place to start.

[LowPhreak]

Hi DavidF,


Go to www.radioparadise.com (http://www.radioparadise.com). At the top of the page, choose your stream rate (32k, 96k, 192k, etc.). There's a gain slider next to it as well. Then hit the "Play" button, or if you don't like the current track hit "PSD" (Play Something Different). If you don't get one you like, hit "Stop" then PSD again, etc.

Scroll down the main page for more info, such as for Android or iOS through which you can stream 320k.

The track listing at upper right continuously renews as new tracks come up. You can click on them anytime and rate them if you'd like from 1 to 10. After you have a "ratings base" so to speak, then when you use PSD it'll tend to play the type of tracks you like more, and not give the ones you don't like as much. Example: I can't stand hearing Leonard Cohen's nose, so I rate his stuff 1 or 2 and he never comes up on PSD. Yay for technology! After your PSD track has played, it'll go back to whatever is playing live in-progress.

This of course assumes that you have a streaming device or PC sound card connected and ready to go.


Naturally, you'll also need at least 100 wpc and a decent set of JBLs - crank to '11' and never mind the bollocks! :bouncy:

[audiomagnate]

That sounds pretty compressed to me. I prefer 24 bit myself, especially the way our old friend Professor Kieth Johnson records them. You can download his 2011 HRx sampler at HDTracks, or I might be convinced to share a small sample of one if PMed. Fair warning, these recordings will make the rest of your collection sound pretty anemic by comparison, especially if you have a system with low dynamic compression (i.e. compression drivers/horns and plenty of woof power).

[LowPhreak]

I've discussed that with him and he's in the process of being less compressed from what our e-mails have said, updating older versions with remasters, and so on. On the other hand, there isn't hella much that can be done with many 'non-audiophile' recordings that were originally pushed up and recorded to sound loud anyway.

He's said their 320k stream is better, if I could only use it at the mo'.

[audiomagnate]

Google Play Music is 320 mbps and Chromcast compatible, and Tidal is uncompressed CD Quality. If you want 24 bit cloud streaming, I have my own solution. www.kromecaster.com (http://www.kromecaster.com)

[LowPhreak]

I don't use an Android but stream through a 24/192 soundcard. If I could do 320k atm I'd check it out, audiomagnate.

Thanks though. :)

[audiomagnate]

I don't use an Android but stream through a 24/192 soundcard. If I could do 320k atm I'd check it out, audiomagnate.

Thanks though. :)
It does seem odd that RP does 320 via portable devices and only 192 via he web page. I can sling easily cast the 192 version to my device, but will have to work on the Android/iOS version.

[LowPhreak]

Yes, and that's something I've been meaning to ask them about, though I think the 320k is relatively new there and I'm hoping they'll make it available in other formats soon. I don't go to their forums much but there might be a thread on it.