Charge Coupling vs non CC with boutique caps

[martin2395]

Has anyone tried comparing charge coupled networks built with decent MKP's like Solen or entry leven Audyn caps for example to equivalent non-CC'ed networks but using boutique caps like Mundorf Supreme, Duelund or even the red/silver Jantzens?

I always wondered what the difference is and what would happen if you use boutique caps like Supremes AND add charge coupling and how much (if any) improvement can be expected from cc'ing expensive caps.

[NickH]

I've always been told charge coupled network get high end sound from mass market no name brand film caps. I'd rather just use high end caps and keep the design of the network simple. But that's just my 2 cents.

As with most designs in audio simplicity usually sounds best. But a simple well designed network is no simple task.

Nick

[BMWCCA]

As with most designs in audio simplicity usually sounds best. But a simple well designed network is no simple task.
My opinion means nothing but it would seem to me once you've introduced any network, the simplicity won't make as much difference as the quality of the design in accomplishing the desired results. The Pros have said that CC is a benefit. They've also said that bi-amping has real benefits, too. I'm running charged-coupled networks from a design by the same guy who suggested bi-amping and all I do is just listen with my jaw dropped at what musicians are capable of, and in amazement that I'm able to listen to them anytime I want, in my own home, as clearly as if they were actually in the same room. PFM (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=PFM) if you ask me.

Right now that guest in my home is Joe Beck and his album "Get Me Joe Beck". The realism is enhanced by his occasional narratives.

[Earl K]

Has anyone tried comparing charge coupled networks built with decent MKP's like Solen or entry leven Audyn caps for example to equivalent non-CC'ed networks but using boutique caps like Mundorf Supreme, Duelund or even the red/silver Jantzens?

I always wondered what the difference is and what would happen if you use boutique caps like Supremes AND add charge coupling and how much (if any) improvement can be expected from cc'ing expensive caps.


IME, one is best off Charge Coupling with SOLEN FAST CAPS ( ie; their typical short aspect ratio caps ) using the battery-less ( or small voltage ) topology.


:)

[martin2395]

What I mean was actually something like this - to get 2uF in series to be able to CC, you'll have to use 4 x1uF Audyn Plus (leaving the SCR's alone now, they are not easily available in Europe and 2uF MKP is very uncommon here) but for the same amount of money you spent on 4 Audyn Plus caps, you could get yourself a single 1uF Audyn True Copper / Reference but then with no CC.

[Earl K]

Has anyone tried comparing charge coupled networks built with decent MKP's like Solen or entry leven Audyn caps for example to equivalent non-CC'ed networks but using boutique caps like Mundorf Supreme, Duelund or even the red/silver Jantzens?

I always wondered what the difference is and what would happen if you use boutique caps like Supremes AND add charge coupling and how much (if any) improvement can be expected from cc'ing expensive caps.

IME, once DC is added into a capacitor, the electro-mechanics ( of that cap ) are irrevocably changed ( even upon discharge of the dc ) .

That means the "signature" sound of any boutique cap ( which you may have just paid big bucks for ), will no longer be exactly as the manufacturer intended ( once it's stored any significant bit of dc ) .
- So, don't destroy the signature sound of the boutique capacitor by adding dc to it ( unless it's done as an experiment ) .
- OTOH, Solen's Fast-Caps "need" their signature sound altered, & that's why they're a good test subject .


:)

[honkytonkwillie]

IME, once DC is added into a capacitor, the electro-mechanics ( of that cap ) are irrevocably changed ( even upon discharge of the dc ) .

That means the "signature" sound of any boutique cap ( which you may have just paid big bucks for ), will no longer be exactly as the manufacturer intended ( once it's stored any significant bit of dc ) .

Do manufacturers warn against such an event?

How can you ever be certain that any cap you buy has never been touched by DC?

[Hoerninger]

Do manufacturers warn against such an event?


Read about "dielectric absorbtion" in "Picking Capacitors" right here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?19028-PICKING-CAPACITORS/page2&highlight=dielectric+absorbtion
___________
Peter

[4313B]

EMM Labs - Meitner Design - High Performance Audio

Meitner Design: Meitner Audio - Where Music is Made

http://www.stereophile.com/content/meitner-idat-da-processor-page-2

"The capacitors used in the notch filter are biased with a DC voltage. Ed Meitner believes this technique alleviates many of the sonic problems associated with capacitors."

http://www.museatex.com/pa6i.htm

"RIAA Accuracy: 0.2 dB (RIAA timing capacitors are charge-biased and matched)."



Originally Posted by gtimbers
"The capacitor biasing is something that has existed for many years. Tube equipment does it automatically since there is usually a large DC offset between stages. Some early transistor amps/preamps had two polarized caps in series with the center point going to ground through a large resistor.

I personally became aware of this technique for speaker systems through communications with Ed Meitner, currently of EMM Labs. He is a wealth of information regarding these "tricks" to help linearize or improve the sound of passive components.

It turns out that the bias trick actually increases measured IM distortion and the higher the bias voltage, the greater the increase. It is not by a great amount, but it is measureable. The sound imporvement (or change) is very rarely perceived as worse and is never linked with a increase in IM distortion. The sonic effect is one of smoothness, increased spaciallity, detail and stuff like that. IM has a muddling or confusing effect so I doubt that this particular steady state measurement is explaining the sound difference either way.

Simply put, we are striving to create a class A situation but as was just pointed out, depending on the bias voltage with respect to the voltage across the capacitor, we may only have an "A" condition up to a particular drive level. So if it makes you happier, consider the change to be class AB, but heavily biased to A. You must also keep in mind that the voltage across the input terminals of the crossover network does not tell you what voltage or current is applied to any individual component. Some parts block signal and others shunt signal so the loading on a particular part is not obvious. For the most part, the caps are well taken care of with 9 volts, even at healthy drive levels. The obvious choice for 9 volts is the small cheap battery and holders that are available. No current is involved so a smoke detector battery and holder is a natural choice.

We did do one system with 18 v (M9500). Certain of the Japanese reviewers thought it was an improvement. I can't personally tell any difference. I am also told on a regualr basis (again by our Asian customers) that the battery must be changed at least every 90 days and that the sound degrades after that. Once again, I have not been able to "hear" any difference after 90 days and the battery is certainly still good for many years from a voltage standpoint.

What playing around I have done with initial application of a battery to a biased circuit (that has not been previously powered up) is that it takes about 3-5 seconds for the soundstage to change. I have tried to measure the voltage level in that time period and it seems that several volts is all that is necessary to accomplish 90% or more of the improvement. Once a circuit has been energized, it is nearly impossible to return it to zero. You have to individually short out each cap and leave them shorted for a while or else they will creep back up somewhat. If you replace the battery with a short and play the system for a while, the caps will start to bias themselves, although not to anywhere near the same degree.

You can take this opinion for what it has cost you. I have been very pleased with biasing for many years. I use it in all applications that involve a capacitor and I have rarely been disappointed. Results may vary so if it doesn't do it for you that is okay too. It cost a bloody fortune to implement as it requires 4 times the capacitance and double the capacitor parts count. The network size gets huge as well. Inspite of this, I have never heard a capacitor type that didn't improve (or change) including the nearly perfect teflon variety."

[brucewood]

Hi,

You might want to consider "listening" to some of the videos Kenrick Sound has posted on Youtube. They have a number of videos that demonstrate the differences between different types. If you have some decent computer speakers you should be able to tell the difference. I am impressed and I am currently building some CC crossovers with Jantzen Z-superior caps.

Bruce