New Build

[David Ketley]

Ive been using these Forums over the years gleaning information from some real experts.
I thought these pictures might amuse you with what I've ended up with.
Even with old amps its sounding nice but the real test comes when I get my two Musical Fidelity Amplifiers back from repair. 656176561865619

[Odd]

Looks good. Unconventional look.

You tell us about your choice of design.

[David Ketley]

The design is to allow to interoperate the horn into the system and to be able to time align without DSP.

All the speakers are movable.

The 2405 has been given space to breath its a very important part of the system its what gives it the space and dynamics.

The pointy bits are just bling.

I run from a computer using ripped WAV files to a master volume control, then to a DAC The volume control on the DAC is digital so is full on.
A Marchand XM 44 crosses at 260Hz 1600hz and about 8000hz via capacitor to the 2405s

The 2245s are in 10 cubic foot boxes made by a company that uses computer controlled cutters the tolerances are such that Ive had to put push bolts on the back panel to be able to get it off.

The top is my work salvaging a failed attempt at transmission line.

Its a long journey this HIFi.

[pos]

Wow, that looks way cool! :coolness:

Are you going to paint the 2245 box black?

[David Ketley]

Not sure yet that's why they are still naked.

[Earl K]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=65619&d=1433178761

Very, Very Neat !

Dr. Who fan ?

I'm trying to decide, which of the many beings encountered, does this "Intergalactic Royal" resemble .

Hmmm.

:)

ps : What's the horn/waveguide ( the 18Sound XT1464 ) ? ( I think I need a pair of those )

[David Ketley]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=65619&d=1433178761

Very, Very Neat !

Dr. Who fan ?

I'm trying to decide, which of the many beings encountered, does this "Intergalactic Royal" resemble .

Hmmm.

:)

ps : What's the horn/waveguide ( the 18Sound XT1464 ) ? ( I think I need a pair of those )

Yes its the 18 sound XT1464 but the idea is to upgrade to the Iwata 300 when funds allow. It needs crossing at 1600hz and above.
I might also look at the Pi horn for the 2123 when time allows.

Dave

[Earl K]

Yes its the 18 sound XT1464 but the idea is to upgrade to the Iwata 300 when funds allow. It needs crossing at 1600hz and above.
I might also look at the Pi horn for the 2123 when time allows.

Dave

Why does it need to be crossed so high ? After-all, the horn appears to be, really quite sizable .

What's the compression driver ?

:)

[grumpy]

I'm getting an eye of sauron vibe ;)

Many interesting design details. Was the horn/2124 phase center
alignment done with a mic at listening distance, or ?

[David Ketley]

Why does it need to be crossed so high ? After-all, the horn appears to be, really quite sizable .

What's the compression driver ?

:)
Thats the 18 sound specification, most horns sound awful pushed low. I'm using a JBL 2450 the idea is to install some Iwata 300 horns even then I will not take it low the 2123 can handle those frequencies very well.
Dave

[David Ketley]

I'm getting an eye of sauron vibe ;)

Many interesting design details. Was the horn/2124 phase center
alignment done with a mic at listening distance, or ?

The 2123 crosses to 2450 and 2405 I use a DB meter at crossover stationed at the listening position. Seems to work OK but maybe doing it in software would be more accurate?

I must try and upgrade my input system but thats another long road.

Dave

[pos]

I'm getting an eye of sauron vibe ;)
65621
All it needs is a 2403 !

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120219192355/lotr/images/8/80/TheEyeofSauron.png

[Earl K]

I'm getting an eye of sauron vibe ;)

Many interesting design details. Was the horn/2124 phase center
alignment done with a mic at listening distance, or ?

Funny how that works ,:blink:

I see a pair of smartly attired, Royal Ambassadors from another dimension ( on a goodwill mission ) & you guys see an Agent of Doom .:crying:


:)

[Earl K]

Thats the 18 sound specification, most horns sound awful pushed low. I'm using a JBL 2450 the idea is to install some Iwata 300 horns even then I will not take it low the 2123 can handle those frequencies very well.
Dave

There's a lot of propaganda baked into that statement.

But I'll just have to let it go since I really like your build .

:D

[David Ketley]

There's a lot of propaganda baked into that statement.

But I'll just have to let it go since I really like your build .

:D

Just stirring it a bit.

[Challenger604]

Sorry to be frank but I think it is shockingly ugly! :eek:

[David Ketley]

Sorry to be frank but I think it is shockingly ugly! :eek:

I did not put it together to look nice, the whole design was based on getting the sound I wanted.

I tend to listen to music with the lights off.

[richluvsound]

I did not put it together to look nice, the whole design was based on getting the sound I wanted.

I tend to listen to music with the lights off.



Great job David ..... un-conventional look ,but not ugly . Nothing better than knowing you have made your own ideas into a reality .

Richard

[David Ketley]

I am finding this quite fascinating, the looks turned out this way because of the design parameters to get the units vertically arranged as tight as possible and to be able to time align them physically.

As they are used in a dedicated listening room looks don't matter which is why the 2245 bass unit is still not painted.

What's fascinating is that the comments are about the looks not how they sound but that I suppose is subjective.

[BMWCCA]

What's fascinating is that the comments are about the looks not how they sound but that I suppose is subjective.
I suppose that's because we can't hear them, we can only see your photos. :hmm:

I can only assume they sound fantastic and admire your inventiveness and creativity as well as the tenacity required to complete a project of this magnitude!

[David Ketley]

I suppose that's because we can't hear them, we can only see your photos. :hmm:

I can only assume they sound fantastic and admire your inventiveness and creativity as well as the tenacity required to complete a project of this magnitude!

"Complete a project" do we ever?

[BMWCCA]

"Complete a project" do we ever?
You've gotten further than I ever do! :banghead:

[hjames]

"We are all Kosh"


Funny how that works ,:blink:

I see a pair of smartly attired, Royal Ambassadors from another dimension ( on a goodwill mission ) & you guys see an Agent of Doom .:crying:


:)

[Mr. Widget]

What's fascinating is that the comments are about the looks not how they sound but that I suppose is subjective.
Congratulations on the project... keep us posted on your progress.


Widget

[speakerdave]

Sorry to be frank but I think it is shockingly ugly! :eek:

This raises an interesting (to me) question. Since ugly, like beautiful, is highly subjective and deeply implicated in culture, I think 'iconoclastic' would be a better word for it. That is, designs like this one smash our image of what a speaker looks like. Every speaker is a product of compromises, the outcome of weighing the importance of various, sometimes conflicting factors. For commercial products, really the source of our image of a speaker, those factors include marketing and SAF, neither involved here. If you think about 'sound first' speaker designs like the early theater horns, the many amateur back-loaded horn designs and horn assemblages you can find on the web, vertical horn speakers like the JBL domestic Array series and GT's DIY, Siegfried Linkwitz's LX521, and any stack of DIY mules, clearly the visual aspect is not deeply considered. These examples often have in common that they valorize one factor, in this case axial alignment of the voice coils, or in the LX521 'NO BOX!!!', while neglecting others, like the proliferation of diffracting edges. As the OP himself says, whimsy can come into play as well, and will almost inevitably if you think about this stuff too much.

[hjames]

Sorry to be frank but I think it is shockingly ugly! :eek:
Okey Dokey - then you always have the option to do what Vandersteen and Von Schweikert
have done with their designs - create a cage around the speaker of dowel columns and cap-plates,
and wrap the whole thing in speaker cloth to hide the actual design behind what amounts to a scrim ...

At least - once you get it to the point it works as planned.

65633

[Challenger604]

This raises an interesting (to me) question. Since ugly, like beautiful, is highly subjective and deeply implicated in culture, I think 'iconoclastic' would be a better word for it. That is, designs like this one smash our image of what a speaker looks like. Every speaker is a product of compromises, the outcome of weighing the importance of various, sometimes conflicting factors. For commercial products, really the source of our image of a speaker, those factors include marketing and SAF, neither involved here. If you think about 'sound first' speaker designs like the early theater horns, the many amateur back-loaded horn designs and horn assemblages you can find on the web, vertical horn speakers like the JBL domestic Array series and GT's DIY, Siegfried Linkwitz's LX521, and any stack of DIY mules, clearly the visual aspect is not deeply considered. These examples often have in common that they valorize one factor, in this case axial alignment of the voice coils, or in the LX521 'NO BOX!!!', while neglecting others, like the proliferation of diffracting edges. As the OP himself says, whimsy can come into play as well, and will almost inevitably if you think about this stuff too much.

Ok OK!!! Iconoclastic would a better word than shockingly ugly. I apologize for that and I hope the sound coming out of it is the best.
I wonder what my half would say if she sees two UFO's with a Battman hats thought... Oops! Sorry!

[Challenger604]

Okey Dokey - then you always have the option to do what Vandersteen and Von Schweikert
have done with their designs - create a cage around the speaker of dowel columns and cap-plates,
and wrap the whole thing in speaker cloth to hide the actual design behind what amounts to a scrim ...

At least - once you get it to the point it works as planned.

65633

Vandersteen and Von Schweikert are actually pretty good looking speakers!

[Triumph Don]

I think they look room filling fantastic. Styling is...techno bizzaro? Compared to some other large 4-ways, should sound dramatic sitting or standing.

[Dr.db]

Could you please show us one or two pics of your marchand x-over? :)

[JoshK]

I too wonder why you are using such a big horn for that range. This range would be much better served from a performance standpoint with a 1" throat driver. I actually think the Iwata 300 (and I own a pair) would be going in the wrong direction. Iwata is best between 450 & ~4K above 2k directivity is getting pretty narrow (beaming). You would be better off with a SEOS 12 or something like that. I'd never use a 2" or 1.4" driver if I was crossing above 1K, its pointless and compromising.

Anyway, do as you like, but I just thought I'd add my $.02. Horns are bandpass devices, not wideband devices. Thus they have optimal ranges which is determined by size and throat size in particular (for top end).

[David Ketley]

Could you please show us one or two pics of your marchand x-over? :)

Same as this if I can post, I tried an Ashley crossover they are fantastic for finding the right crossover points but the Marchand is a real leap in quality. I run 3 way with a capacitor for the JBL 2405.
http://www.marchandelec.com/xm44s.jpg

[David Ketley]

I too wonder why you are using such a big horn for that range. This range would be much better served from a performance standpoint with a 1" throat driver. I actually think the Iwata 300 (and I own a pair) would be going in the wrong direction. Iwata is best between 450 & ~4K above 2k directivity is getting pretty narrow (beaming). You would be better off with a SEOS 12 or something like that. I'd never use a 2" or 1.4" driver if I was crossing above 1K, its pointless and compromising.

Anyway, do as you like, but I just thought I'd add my $.02. Horns are bandpass devices, not wideband devices. Thus they have optimal ranges which is determined by size and throat size in particular (for top end).
Horn directivity is constant from 1.5kHz.



Throat Diameter
35,5 mm (1,4 in)


Horizontal Coverage (-6dB)
60° (8 ÷ -12) average range (1,25KHz - 12,5KHz)


Vertical Coverage (-6 dB)
50° (15 ÷ -10) average range (1,25KHz - 12,5KHz)


Directivity Index
18 dB (1,8 ÷ 2,6) average range (1,25KHz - 12,5KHz)


Usable Frequency Range
Above 500 Hz


Recomm. Cross.Frequency
800 Hz or more


Sensitivity
110 dB


Frequency Range
800 Hz - 18KHz


Material
Injection moulded polyurethane

[David Ketley]

Wow, that looks way cool! :coolness:

Are you going to paint the 2245 box black?

I'm open to suggestions, actually when I did the top units with a grey undercoat I thought it was quite good.

[David Ketley]

Ok OK!!! Iconoclastic would a better word than shockingly ugly. I apologize for that and I hope the sound coming out of it is the best.
I wonder what my half would say if she sees two UFO's with a Battman hats thought... Oops! Sorry!

No offence taken, literally they have ended up like they are because of my design parameters, trying to get the whole array vertically aligned as tightly as possible and not have the units interfering with each other. The bass unit was set back firstly because I was worried that the JBL 2123 needed space when physically aligned, also to bring the horn mouth within the overall box dimensions. The JBL 2405 is mounted on a good sized plate and I can move it independently from the 2450, yes the pointy bits were a bit of bling.

[David Ketley]

Congratulations on the project... keep us posted on your progress.


Widget
Just got my Musical Fidelity KW 500 back from repair, I decided to put them in place of some Crown XLS 2000 on the two 2245s, keep in mind the Musical Fidelity are huge, the amp weighs 60lb and the separate power supply 40lbs, but the Crown actually sounds better. Its incredible that a Class D amp which weighs nothing can outcompete such a high class amp.
Although I'm still switching amps round and trying things I am enthralled with the sound I'm getting considering the height of the array there is no cut off when standing or sitting and the sound is amazingly balanced. I did set up though with a tape measure to get the speakers exactly aligned.
I'm sure with a better system of time aligning, its only a cheap db meter there is room for further improvement. Now that paint job!

Dave

[Mr. Widget]

Just got my Musical Fidelity KW 500 back from repair, I decided to put them in place of some Crown XLS 2000 on the two 2245s, keep in mind the Musical Fidelity are huge, the amp weighs 60lb and the separate power supply 40lbs, but the Crown actually sounds better.I love to hear reports like this from people who actually "listen". So often we hear about how upgrading to this or that made a world of difference.... and yes, sometimes it does but often there is little or no difference and equally often it is a step backwards.

I am not familiar with either of the amps but I would guess that there may be configurations/speaker choices where you may find the tables turn in favor of the Musical Fidelity.


Widget