4365's in the US? Yup. [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

1audiohack

03-03-2015, 10:28 PM

HI All!

These things are really damn good! I know everyone expects the new owner of anything to gush but these kick ass. Even though they really are poser monitors, I knew that with the driver load that I could love them. I took the gamble un-auditioned, and won.

They have bass aplenty. The subs are currently off. This room is not very conducive to a decent audio setup and since the 4365 is wider than the 1400 Arrays it is now all crammed together.

It is now time to build the dedicated audio room. It is designed and I have been sitting on the dough to do it so I need to get the permit and just go. The JBL family is only getting larger.

The front end is nothing to brag about and I really think for the first time that is now apparent. The Arrays are pretty forgiving, the 4365's let me hear much farther in.

Wow someone recognized the M600's! I really do like them. When they are truly configured for audio with infinitely variable fans and .775V input sensitivity they rock and they are dead quiet. DC to channel three.

I only got a couple of hours with them last night and about an hour of that was with one each and then switching back and forth and the short version of the long story is the Arrays have been bested in all but one category. They will likely end up in a bedroom.

It's going to be a great weekend!

All the best,
Barry.

srm51555

03-04-2015, 06:22 AM

Congrats on you new setup, we all look forward to hearing more on your listing impressions.

Valentin

03-04-2015, 06:46 AM

Congratulations

nice set up :applaud:

1audiohack

03-04-2015, 11:34 AM

These kept me up late last night and made me late for work this morning.

I had my youngest boy (16) with me when we picked these up and had the opportunity to compare them against Widgets Everests and we both agree with Widgets assesment but since Widget had the 4365's for several days and the Everests for what, four years I think his assesment of how they compare would best be left to him to desrcribe them after all, he is very good at that.

I have an 18 year old daughter who playes sax, guitar and piano and has really good ears for small differences and she stated during the first three songs I played this morning that:

"The precussive sounds are much sharper, the cymbals sizzle and shimmer far closer to reality and I can hear the snare springs rolling, not just the hit... I can hear the pick let go if the strings, I have never heard that before...by comparison the other speakers (1400's) sound muddled."

My boy simply stated that they sound much sharper than the Arrays.

That is all spot on to what I hear. Leaving that all as is, the voice is incredible. The bass is very good. These woofers make 2235's door stops. Yeah I said that, sorry. :)

After some thinking, the Arrays will likely stay with the TV. They are very good for that and with subs they handle movies quite well. These 4365's are in another league entirely.

I was thinking of bringing in the 4430's but , that just wont be required, I already know the outcome.

All the best,
Barry.

1audiohack

03-04-2015, 02:08 PM

Retail price is $15K USD.

:)

pos

03-04-2015, 02:43 PM

Congrats Barry!
Can't wait to read your future comparison with the M2 ;)

the Arrays have been bested in all but one category.imaging?

spkrman57

03-04-2015, 06:42 PM

That is all spot on to what I hear. Leaving that all as is, the voice is incredible. The bass is very good. These woofers make 2235's door stops. Yeah I said that, sorry. :)
All the best,
Barry.

My experience with the 1501Fe's were in 3.5 cu ft box tuned port approx 36hz.

dbx driverack Pa+ with SS LF and SE EL34 tube amp HF.

Long story short, I kept the 1501's down to 375 hz. I'm used to 2226 drivers and found a different characteristic in the midrange comparing the two drivers.

But however the 1501Fe excels as a bass driver down low in the 30's in a smallish cab! Even without EQ in my small room...

The 1501Fe likes a high current amp and it shows appreciation when properly done!

Regards, Ron

1audiohack

03-04-2015, 09:51 PM

Hi Thomas;

Yes. That the Arrays really do well, very well. The image with the 4365 isn't fragile though.

One of these days I am going to have to get these all these JBL's in one place just for camparative fun.

I have a pair of D2's and granted I don't have the M2 waveguides or the processing but on the 4338 horns, I am not knocked out. They don't sound like a large format driver. Maybe that's the plan. I am going to have to go really listen to a pair. I am not quite ready to take the plunge on them yet.

Hi Ron;

I had a oair of 1501Fe's for about a month. I didn't have an ideal set of boxes to run them in but soon decided that the old JBL drivers had indeed lived their heyday.

Man I love efficiency. Habbit dictates the volume knob position and I keep getting suprized by how much louder these play. Lovin' it!

Go hear these when you get the chance.

Barry.

Mr. Widget

03-05-2015, 12:19 AM

Yep, I too was quite impressed with these 4365s. I agree completely with Barry's assesment. I would add that the E2 with it's more evolved woofers, Be diaphragms, and CC'd networks are even more revealing much in the way the 4365s with their large format Mg drivers and 1501Fe woofers are more revealing than the 1400 Arrays... still love those ugly ducklings though. :D

It is very difficult to accurately describe the emotion and sonic joy that all of these fine speakers allow out of our recordings.

Widget

DingDing

03-05-2015, 02:15 AM

Very, very nice speakers, congratulations! :)

pos

03-05-2015, 04:01 AM

Barry, do you plan to turn it active, or maybe use the biamp mode with additional EQ to get accurate acoustical crossover slopes like GT did with the S4700 and S3900 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?35028-S3900-S4700-dbx-DriveRack-260)?

4313B

03-05-2015, 07:43 AM

HI All!

I have wanted a pair of these since they were announced in what 2010? I complained long and loud about not being able to buy them here. I don't think anyone really cared what I had to say about it but when they were announced for sale here, well it was time to put some money where my mouth was/is.

Thank you Mr Widget!Congratulations on finally getting a pair! :)

Hi Thomas;

Yes. That the Arrays really do well, very well. The image with the 4365 isn't fragile though.

One of these days I am going to have to get these all these JBL's in one place just for camparative fun.

I have a pair of D2's and granted I don't have the M2 waveguides or the processing but on the 4338 horns, I am not knocked out. They don't sound like a large format driver. Maybe that's the plan. I am going to have to go really listen to a pair. I am not quite ready to take the plunge on them yet.

Hi Ron;

I had a oair of 1501Fe's for about a month. I didn't have an ideal set of boxes to run them in but soon decided that the old JBL drivers had indeed lived their heyday.

Man I love efficiency. Habbit dictates the volume knob position and I keep getting suprized by how much louder these play. Lovin' it!

Go hear these when you get the chance.

Barry.I didn't know that you had a pair of D2's... Would you feel like running impedance curves on the pair you have? :D

4313B

07-21-2014, 04:54 PM

Can you please post an impedance curve of one with the resistor pad from the M2? (13 ohm series, 11 ohm parallel)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

pos

07-22-2014, 02:47 AM

Sorry, I did not run any impedance measurement on them, and I returned the pair to the seller (after having tried to replace just one, but the replacement I received also had "issues").
My conclusion is that those drivers are too fragile to be bought used, the faston terminals especially: gently pushing a terminal during measurement could change distortion figures by up to 20dB...
62692
(lower traces are 3rd distortion)

4313B

03-05-2015, 08:02 AM

I am going to have to go really listen to a pair. I am not quite ready to take the plunge on them yet.I have to recommend not wasting your time unless you can walk out with a pair (and their amps) in hand.

I know that a few guys are resistant to the whole M2 "thing" but, quite frankly, it's their loss. :)

Yeah... I drank the cool aide... the whole keg... and then asked for seconds.

Barry, do you plan to turn it active, or maybe use the biamp mode with additional EQ to get accurate acoustical crossover slopes like GT did with the S4700 and S3900 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?35028-S3900-S4700-dbx-DriveRack-260)?G.T. declined to do a similar work up for the 4365. I wouldn't do it that way anyway, and I didn't. I'd follow the M2 topology, and I did. ;)

All those components, the 1501Fe/Al, 476Mg/Be, 2216Nd are stellar and getting them out from behind passive filters is even better, but not trivial. A person has to weigh whether or not they really want to screw with it.

Once again, I really like what you've done with your document.

Yep, I too was quite impressed with these 4365s. I agree completely with Barry's assesment. I would add that the E2 with it's more evolved woofers, Be diaphragms, and CC'd networks are even more revealing much in the way the 4365s with their large format Mg drivers and 1501Fe woofers are more revealing than the 1400 Arrays... still love those ugly ducklings though. :D

It is very difficult to accurately describe the emotion and sonic joy that all of these fine speakers allow out of our recordings.

WidgetIn defense of the 1400 Array though, we all have to keep in mind that J.M wasn't kidding when he said the LE14H was "old school". The 1501Fe and the 1501Al are light years ahead in technology some fifty years after the fact. The 2216Nd is so full of goodies it is ridiculous. How a ten pound fifteen-inch transducer can do what it does is staggering. Rumor has it that JBL is so thoroughly impressed with the 2216Nd that there might be a twelve-inch version as well as another fifteen-inch version having a lower Fs.

And the 3-inch 435 simply isn't a 476. It is a nice enough transducer but compared to a 476... even G.T. made the remark that when you put them side by side it is quite clear which one has the advantage.

spkrman57

03-05-2015, 09:35 AM

Hi Ron;

I had a oair of 1501Fe's for about a month. I didn't have an ideal set of boxes to run them in but soon decided that the old JBL drivers had indeed lived their heyday.

Man I love efficiency. Habbit dictates the volume knob position and I keep getting suprized by how much louder these play. Lovin' it!

Go hear these when you get the chance.

Barry.

I think the 1501Fe/2206/Be horn/driver tri-amped would make one small but powerfull system.

Tube amps on MF/HF and 1501Fe's like high current sand amps only. x-over points of 120hz and 1200hz!

Just the ramblings of a old audio hobbyist!

Regards, Ron

JuniorJBL

03-05-2015, 09:38 AM

Congrats Barry!!:) That is a really nice pair of speakers you have there!!

I too would agree that once I swapped in my 476Mg's in place of the 435Be's, I was down right blown away.

I have yet to hear my 1500AL's with my 476's but I still truly love my LE14H-3's coupled with my 2 2245's and the 476's.

I am currently using G's high-pass passive XO's on the 476's and I really only use the 045Be's as a filler in the SAM1HF! :D

Excellent setup Barry!!

Enjoy

Dave_72

03-05-2015, 10:58 AM

Killer speakers, Barry! I'm green :D with envy! I'm sure those babies will provide you with many great hours of listening enjoyment!

I can't wait to hear them at a future LVAC (Las Vegas Audio Club) meeting! :coolness:

1audiohack

03-06-2015, 09:16 AM

HI All;

Like Widet said, I too like the Arrays and for the living room that I share with the rest of the family they fit the bill very well. I am a large format guy and sometimes when I want to open it up they just don't get there.

Hi dingding, thank you.

4313b, I get the M2 is a system and I would likely start with the Crown amp system. They are the only other large format studio monitor that I am interested in that I don't already have, but I would have to love it first.

The prospect of a low FS 2216 and a super 12 is exciting!

As said above the large format drivers are what gets it done for me and the 476's really knock it out of the park!

Hi Ron, I get what you are saying, my 4350s are quad amped, five actually and I wouldn't have it any other way!

Hey Shane! Nothing to argue with there but, I just don't share all the love for the LE14's that many do. I don't dislike them but I love the flavor (caution! imprecise audio descriptor!) of high efficiency drivers. I really thought about re-woofing the Arrray's but then even if you could fit a different woofer without butchering the cab, you would soon hit the limits of the 435 and at what point do you just jump for the 4365, M2 or a pair of DD's?

Hey Dave, you will, you will. :)

Thanks all and, all the best,
Barry.

jblnut

03-06-2015, 12:04 PM

I love these threads. It's great to read about all the excellent new JBL systems out there. Those of us farther down the price curve can hear what the new owners are experiencing, and plan our ebay/CL searches for 2025 :-)

jblnut

Dave_72

03-06-2015, 12:47 PM

Hey Dave, you will, you will. :)

Cool, sounds good. Thanks! :coolness: Until then, bring the roof down with those babies! :D

bubbleboy76

03-07-2015, 07:09 AM

Finally, some 4365:s in the US!
Congratulations!
I was not fully satisfied with my 4365:s until I went active bi-amp with an dbx 260. It was an huge improvement in my system. Passively they needed to play on very high volume to sound good.
My theory is that the crossover is somewhat downgraded to not make them mess with the big K2s.

4313B

03-07-2015, 07:27 AM

My theory is that the crossover is somewhat downgraded to not make them mess with the big K2s.I have posted the passive network schematics, voltage drives and transducer complements for the 4365, K2-S9900, DD65000, DD66000 and DD67000.
The difference in sound between them all is indeed a personal preference.
I only post this for those who like to experiment around with various passive networks.
They are all very interesting, how they relate to their respective transducers/horns/enclosures. :yes:
But perhaps not quite as interesting as a Crown I-Tech 5000HD. ;) That is a significant amount of money by comparison though, and a potentially significant amount of work to dial in. :coolness:

bubbleboy76

03-07-2015, 09:28 AM

But perhaps not quite as interesting as a Crown I-Tech 5000HD. ;) That is a significant amount of money by comparison though, and a potentially significant amount of work to dial in. :coolness:

I just checked the price of that thing, ouch! And you need 3 of them to run the pair of 4365:s all-in fully active :) (I myself made it a 2-way and skipped the UHF)
To pay more for the amplification than the speakers feels somewhat wrong to me!

Doc Mark

03-07-2015, 09:35 AM

Good Morning, Barry,

I have to tell you that I am very impressed by your report on the 4365s! And, your talented daughter's comments put many supposed audio reporters to shame, with their clear and concise phrasing! Well done, all around! Sweet Bride and I very much look forward to paying you another visit, and to hearing these wonderful JBLs! With current our budget, I don't see any chance of a future purchase of such wonderful speakers for ourselves. But, will be great fun to take vicarious audio delight in hearing yours someday!! Thanks, again, for sharing these, Barry, and hearty congratulations on acquiring them!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Mark

1audiohack

03-07-2015, 09:38 AM

One thing that I first noticed when moving them around is how rigid the enclosured are. 1" MDF all around. They knock like a brick. They and away the most solid enclosures in my stable.

Mr. Widget

03-07-2015, 10:36 AM

I was not fully satisfied with my 4365:s until I went active bi-amp with an dbx 260. It was an huge improvement in my system. Passively they needed to play on very high volume to sound good.
My theory is that the crossover is somewhat downgraded to not make them mess with the big K2s.I doubt that they would purposefully de-tune a speaker to keep it in line with it's pricing. That said the K2s do have a much more sophisticated and more costly network.

I listened to the 4365s stock for several days and was quite impressed with them. I do have a very nice front end with a pair of Halo JC-1 mono blocks driving the speakers which may have helped.

Could you please describe the improvements you sought and achieved by going active?

Widget

4313B

03-07-2015, 11:04 AM

One thing that I first noticed when moving them around is how rigid the enclosured are. 1" MDF all around. They knock like a brick. They and away the most solid enclosures in my stable.

That is a huge plus. :yes:

I just checked the price of that thing, ouch! And you need 3 of them to run the pair of 4365:s all-in fully active :) (I myself made it a 2-way and skipped the UHF)
To pay more for the amplification than the speakers feels somewhat wrong to me!Yeah... Crown is pretty proud of them. :o: I've been playing around with the order of magnitude less expensive XTi 2 Series. They don't have as many PEQ points but so far that hasn't been a problem for me. And yes, if you set them up like the M2 configuration there is arguably no need for the UHF. They will not configure exactly like an M2 either, no 36 dB/octave filters and too few PEQ points for a complete M2 specification. Like I said though, JBL went arguably overboard with the M2 voltage drives, they wanted that graph to look as flawless as possible. ;)

Anyway... all these systems are just too cool for school. It's nice to see JBL with a stable of world class systems in this day and age. I had completely written off JBL Pro, and G.T. is quite obviously the driving force behind the best Consumer offerings.

That said the K2s do have a much more sophisticated and more costly network.They are all very similar in sophistication. The cost is different amongst them though primarily due to peripherals.

For those who like to simplify and compare networks:

Sorry about the K2-S9900 PDF, KB is too large to post and I don't feel like loading Adobe Acrobat on this PC to try and optimize it.

I posted all the LEAP files somewhere else in the forum showing their simplified schematics and voltage drives years ago to highlight their similarities/differences. Two things of note, the differences in the horns used and the type of voicing G.T. desired from each of the systems.

ivica

03-07-2015, 11:59 AM

That is a huge plus. :yes: For those who like to simplify and compare networks: Sorry about the K2-S9900 PDF, KB is too large to post and I don't feel like loading Adobe Acrobat on this PC to try and optimize it. I posted all the LEAP files somewhere else in the forum showing their simplified schematics and voltage drives years ago to highlight their similarities/differences. Two things of note, the differences in the horns used and the type of voicing G.T. desired from each of the systems.

Hi

Just to be in the same place

regards
Ivica

bubbleboy76

03-07-2015, 12:34 PM

Could you please describe the improvements you sought and achieved by going active?
Widget

I think it is no secret that the 4365 is voiced for the Japanese market and rice walls!

They sounded to thin for me. Male voices for example. And I lacked bass. I have had subwoofers before, JBL Array 1500 and JBL TiK :)
I also lacked details. The speakers before at my home were Burmester 961 mk3 with AMT tweeter.

With the active crossover, I have implemented the 8db augmentation of bass from around 135Hz (if I remember correctly) and down just like the M2-crossover. This made it sound exactly like I wanted in the bass-region! I also took away the large roommode I had with the PEQ.

I have tried to roughly implement the JBL target housecurve. This could be tweaked on forever, but I am very satisfied right now.

I have not tried to timealign at the crossover point yet with delay. This will make it sound even better.

When going active it was like an very thick veil was removed from the sound.

Much more dynamic sound as well.

I have DIY Hypex nCore amplifiers (class-d 400W). Oppo BDP-105 source. DBX 260 Driverack. Fully balanced signal chain.

One thing that I did not expect was that just introducing the driverack in the signal chain improved the sound. I thought it would degrade the sound a little bit. Probably it can drive my long signalcables better than the Oppo.

Dave_72

03-07-2015, 01:12 PM

I doubt that they would purposefully de-tune a speaker to keep it in line with it's pricing. That said the K2s do have a much more sophisticated and more costly network.

I listened to the 4365s stock for several days and was quite impressed with them. I do have a very nice front end with a pair of Halo JC-1 mono blocks driving the speakers which may have helped.

Could you please describe the improvements you sought and achieved by going active?

Widget

The JC-1s are decent amps. You could do a lot worse. :coolness:

It's interesting that these high end JBLs are for the most part very sensitive, but thrive on high powered amps...

4313B

03-07-2015, 01:39 PM

With the active crossover, I have implemented the 8db augmentation of bass from around 135Hz (if I remember correctly) and down just like the M2-crossover. This made it sound exactly like I wanted in the bass-region!:thmbsup:

Hi

Just to be in the same place

regards
IvicaThank you! :)

Right off the bat, notice how similar the component values are for the 1501Fe in the 4365 and the 1501AL-1 in the S9900, differing only in the shunt capacitor value by a few uF to get the slopes just right for each transducer.

Mr. Widget

03-07-2015, 03:20 PM

I think it is no secret that the 4365 is voiced for the Japanese market and rice walls!

They sounded to thin for me. Male voices for example. And I lacked bass. Personally I think far too much has been made of Japanese voicing. From what had been posted on the web, my expectations were pretty low. Once I fired up the 4365s I was most impressed by their neutral sound, bass quality, and dynamics. In my room with my system they were not at all "lean". Uber deep bass extension? No, but they were certainly not lean like the K2-S9900s are.

One thing that I did not expect was that just introducing the driverack in the signal chain improved the sound. I thought it would degrade the sound a little bit. Probably it can drive my long signalcables better than the Oppo.In every system that I have had no preamp or a passive preamp, I found the sense of "drive" to be greatly improved by adding a proper active line stage.

Widget

SEAWOLF97

03-07-2015, 08:01 PM

Personally I think far too much has been made of Japanese voicing.
Widget

The overall system was designed for a specific sonic character that appealed to the Japanese market. In general, it is marked by an overdamped bass response with the lowest octave gently rolled off. The bass is expected to extend to the deepest octave but not at the same volume level as the upper bass.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/everest.htm

Mctwins

03-07-2015, 11:52 PM

Mctwins

03-08-2015, 12:09 AM

I think it is no secret that the 4365 is voiced for the Japanese market and rice walls!

They sounded to thin for me. Male voices for example. And I lacked bass. I have had subwoofers before, JBL Array 1500 and JBL TiK :)
I also lacked details. The speakers before at my home were Burmester 961 mk3 with AMT tweeter.

With the active crossover, I have implemented the 8db augmentation of bass from around 135Hz (if I remember correctly) and down just like the M2-crossover. This made it sound exactly like I wanted in the bass-region! I also took away the large roommode I had with the PEQ.

I have tried to roughly implement the JBL target housecurve. This could be tweaked on forever, but I am very satisfied right now.

I have not tried to timealign at the crossover point yet with delay. This will make it sound even better.

When going active it was like an very thick veil was removed from the sound.

Much more dynamic sound as well.

I have DIY Hypex nCore amplifiers (class-d 400W). Oppo BDP-105 source. DBX 260 Driverack. Fully balanced signal chain.

One thing that I did not expect was that just introducing the driverack in the signal chain improved the sound. I thought it would degrade the sound a little bit. Probably it can drive my long signalcables better than the Oppo.

The reason you have lack off bass in your room is not because of the speakers and it is more your room that produce the thin bass problem. Regarding your statement about room mode, no PEQ will remove a room mode. You have to provide with some measurements, like waterfallgraph and freq response to see if your statement holds.

You are saying because you are bi-amping you have better sound now than with full range with passive x-over. If you have not done something regarding to the room acoustics then the sound would be the same, exept for the boost you have now in the bass. Still, some measurements before and after, bi-amp and full range, would be most welcome.

Mctwins

03-08-2015, 12:12 AM

I just checked the price of that thing, ouch! And you need 3 of them to run the pair of 4365:s all-in fully active :) (I myself made it a 2-way and skipped the UHF)
To pay more for the amplification than the speakers feels somewhat wrong to me!

Still don't understand why you removed the UHF:confused:

Mctwins

03-08-2015, 12:20 AM

I have DIY Hypex nCore amplifiers (class-d 400W). Oppo BDP-105 source. DBX 260 Driverack. Fully balanced signal chain.

Could you please explain how exactly you have bi-amped your system. I asume you have removed the passive x-over, right?

bubbleboy76

03-08-2015, 04:34 AM

Could you please explain how exactly you have bi-amped your system. I asume you have removed the passive x-over, right?

I will answer you in a PM in swedish to not destroy this thread. I think swedish will make us understand eachother better than in the past :)

spkrman57

03-08-2015, 09:55 AM

I found the 1501Fe's to have plenty of LF energy!

I like to describe the 1501Fe's as a cross between the LE-14 and 2235.

Clarity of LE-14 bass with the authority of the 2235.

Regards, Ron

ivica

03-09-2015, 02:02 AM

One thing that I first noticed when moving them around is how rigid the enclosures are. 1" MDF all around. They knock like a brick. They and away the most solid enclosures in my stable.

Hi 1audiohack,

Very nice presentation (in Italian) of the 4365 is presented here ( Audio review 05-2012, no 333):

http://www.cieri.net/temp/JBL_4365_-_Test_di_Audio_Review_(05-2012).pdf

from the mentioned data it seems to me that H4365 has very wide ( +/-45 deg) off-axis dispersion up to 10kHz ( I think G.T. construction) but with about +3dB 'over-shoot' from say 3kHz to 9kHz in off-axis response.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33024-why-does-JBL-4365-only-rank-10th-in-Japanese-eyes&p=334328&viewfull=1#post334328

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33024-why-does-JBL-4365-only-rank-10th-in-Japanese-eyes&p=344924&viewfull=1#post344924

Barry, does that introduce a kind of 'sharpness' in the reproduction.

Regards
Ivica

regards,
ivica

1audiohack

03-10-2015, 11:09 PM

Hi All;

Like Widget said, these have very neutral bass. With this I completely agree.

It is interesting to me by comparison that my 4435's at a glance seem to have less bass than my 4430's but when there is real LF in the material the 4435's sound much cleaner and acurate than the 4430's.

And like Ron said, these woofs are very capable.

Hi Ivica; I don't want to use the wrong term and perpetuate the Aisan voice myth so I will carefully try to explain that these have the large format driver sound that I like. I call it presence. My 4350's have it also. The 4430's and 4435's don't have it and although the 1400 Arrays have the much better driver (435Al) than the 4430-4435 (tel:4430-4435)'s, they don't have it either. It's not bark or bite but it's bigger and brighter. Not everyone likes that, I really do.

Oh yeah, Hi Doc! Get yourself and your bride on up here! Anytime, I just can't turn them off. :D

All the best,
Barry.

ivica

03-11-2015, 04:59 AM

Hi All;

Hi Ivica; I don't want to use the wrong term and perpetuate the Aisan voice myth so I will carefully try to explain that these have the large format driver sound that I like. I call it presence. My 4350's have it also. The 4430's and 4435's don't have it and although the 1400 Arrays have the much better driver (435Al) than the 4430-4435 (tel:4430-4435)'s, they don't have it either. It's not bark or bite but it's bigger and brighter. Not everyone likes that, I really do.

.......
Barry.

Hi Barry,

Thank You for your the first impression of the sound character of your new nice speakers, especially that You compare them with the old-school models, that for some of us are known, so we can better understand your impressions.
Interestingly that 2311 & 2308 ( or 2312 & 2308 ) has almost the same horizontal polar response as H4365 ( when CD-horn compensated ) with previously mentioned 'over-shoot' from say 3kHz to 9kHz in off-axis response, that is may be why a kind of "...call it presence...." can be recognized.

Unfortunately I can not find any more detailed measurements data about the polar response of the 4365 horn-driver combo.

regards
Ivica

audiomagnate

03-11-2015, 07:27 AM

What I'm getting from this thread is that 1400's image better and are flatter. If I wanted "presence" (I don't) I can add it with EQ. You can't add better imaging.

1audiohack

03-11-2015, 08:10 AM

Mr. Widget

03-11-2015, 08:11 AM

What I'm getting from this thread is that 1400's image better and are flatter. If I wanted "presence" (I don't) I can add it with EQ. You can't add better imaging.I'd say yes, the 1400 Arrays image better, but I don't think they are "flatter". I also think that ivica is diving into the theoretical that doesn't necessarily relate to the actual.

I didn't hear the 4365s as being elevated in the upper midrange... more detailed yes, but I would attribute this to the superior performance of the 4" Mg in the 476Mg as opposed to a frequency aberration.

Widget

ivica

03-11-2015, 08:24 AM

.....I also think that ivica is diving into the theoretical that doesn't necessarily relate to the actual.
I didn't hear the 4365s as being elevated in the upper midrange... more detailed yes, but I would attribute this to the superior performance of the 4" Mg in the 476Mg as opposed to a frequency aberration.
Widget

Hi Mr. Widget,

I am so sorry if boring You, but I only wonder does such Hi-midrange off-axis FR hump being done intentionally by JBL Gurus, or that only happened inadvertently.

Regards
ivica

Mr. Widget

03-11-2015, 08:32 AM

Hi Mr. Widget,

I am so sorry if boring You, but I only wonder does such Hi-midrange off-axis FR hump being done intentionally by JBL Gurus, or that only happened inadvertently.

Regards
ivicaI don't mean to sound dismissive... my point was that in my real world experience, the results didn't end up the way you are predicting. The speaker is remarkably neutral sounding as well as being nicely revealing.

As for the design intent? I have no idea.

Regarding comparisons with the 1400 Array. The 4365 is $3K a pair more expensive and is a bit better in several ways... but speakers being the subjective beasts that they are, you can't really say that everyone will like model A more than model B or vice versa.

Widget

bubbleboy76

03-11-2015, 09:55 AM

Can not blame the 4365 to be beautiful, but the 1400 Arrays looks like, hmmm..., well I can not help what images you get in your mind right now!

4365 can be regarded as old-school eighties retro design, if you stretch it :)

I have put white vinyl and white speakercloth on mine, so they dissapear a bit against the white walls.

I can sign on the "presence" sound. It feels live (dynamic sound tha are felt physically, locking the room, can touch the sound, etc, bla bla bla)

They are ridicolously heavy. I had troubles getting them delivered, the transport guys almost quit their jobs!

Dave_72

03-13-2015, 01:26 AM

This is where these threads seem to sink into the deep, when it becomes either or, the symantic battle is on. What I am trying to express cannot be shaped into the 1400 Array with EQ. This I know.

Except for six or seven words the audio language is made from borrowed words that for the most part are imprecise descriptors at best.

The Arrays have the edge when it comes to imaging, as nearly everyone agrees this is where they are exceptional. If that is your main focal point of audio enjoyment, the Arrays are probably the speaker for you. I really like them too. The Arrray's are to me in the flavor of the 250Ti, very nice, but when I am really listening, they leave me wanting something more. The 4365's and the DD Everest's have whatever "it" is that I desire.

All the best,
Barry.

Well, whatever makes you happy is key. Aren't the Arrays and 4365s 2 different animals anyway? I believe you when you say this is a good speaker, there's no reason to pooh-pooh them, especially if you haven't heard the damn things. If you like the Arrays, then be happy with those and quit dogging the other models (like my S4700s :D.) It doesn't do anyone a favor. :D

audiomagnate

03-14-2015, 03:16 AM

Can not blame the 4365 to be beautiful, but the 1400 Arrays looks like, hmmm..., well I can not help what images you get in your mind right now!...

I'll say it, two gigantic ugly ducks. But I love them anyway, and I'm not even their mother!

Dave_72

03-14-2015, 12:48 PM

Regardless of which model you have, sit back, fire up a joint, and get lost in the music. To me, that's where it's at. :D

gcarlberg

03-14-2015, 06:48 PM

1audiohack

03-14-2015, 10:49 PM

Hi George!

It's funny you should say that! I have actually been thinking about that very thing but I don't have a cool big house that lends itself to entertaining, just a little old ranch flat. I am still thinking about it though.

I know everyone hates to come to Vegas anyway right? :)

All the best,
Barry.

pos

03-15-2015, 01:34 AM

Speaking of which, how would you rank the GT Array 1200 you probably heard at TiDome's place compared to the Array 1400 and 4365?
A large format compression driver on a vertical horn...

ivica

03-15-2015, 04:46 AM

Speaking of which, how would you rank the GT Array 1200 you probably heard at TiDome's place compared to the Array 1400 and 4365? A large format compression driver on a vertical horn...

Hi POS,

I believe that rotating 4365 about 90-deg. the 'vertical horn' behavior can be get. may be even compensating time delay between the drivers if the horns are oriented "inner place". I believe that the H4365 diffraction slot would involve better off-axis dispersion while the horn is 'in vertical position'.

So as any 43xx called "book-shelf speaker" 4365 become too, :-))

regards
ivica

pos

03-15-2015, 06:10 AM

lol :D
The woofer/horn vertical misalignment would probably ruin the imaging quality tho.

bubbleboy76

03-15-2015, 07:51 AM

Hi POS,

I believe that rotating 4365 about 90-deg. the 'vertical horn' behavior can be get. may be even compensating time delay between the drivers if the horns are oriented "inner place". I believe that the H4365 diffraction slot would involve better off-axis dispersion while the horn is 'in vertical position'.

So as any 43xx called "book-shelf speaker" 4365 become too, :-))

regards
ivica

Actually, it is my long-term plan to test this, when I can fulfil my dream of placing them behind a false wall with soundtransparent cinema-screen.

1audiohack

03-15-2015, 08:03 AM

Speaking of which, how would you rank the GT Array 1200 you probably heard at TiDome's place compared to the Array 1400 and 4365?
A large format compression driver on a vertical horn...

Hi Thomas;

The GT Array system was only played for a short while in a crowd and at quite low levels at the time I had a chance to hear it. All I remember was that it sounded nice. That's not much to go on but that's all I have. Sorry about that.

I have stood some of my 4338's vertical and the magic is there. Don't the "little speaker" guys attribute magic in imaging to narrow baffle enclusures too? Is it the same thing?

Again the imaging quality of the 4365's is not at all bad nor is the image fragile

Hi ivica;

If I had the space to lay them sideways, I would have a pair of DD6700's there. ;) Wish wish!

All the best,
Barry.

ivica

03-15-2015, 10:07 AM

Hi ivica;

If I had the space to lay them sideways, I would have a pair of DD6700's there. ;) Wish wish!

All the best,
Barry.

Hi Barry,

Looking at the picture You have shown us, "something can be done":
-move TV up,:eek:
-move sub-woofers on the side walls (as JBL have suggested as an optimal sub-bass drivers position);)
-'take' DD67000 pair:bouncy:
-use 4365 pair as "rear speakers", "properly (book-shelf)" oriented, then their bass and UHF response would be less important.... :confused:

Best Regards, and Enjoy in listening nice 4365, up to......

Ivica

LowPhreak

03-15-2015, 01:53 PM

Do any of you (audiohack, bubbleboy) have a few pix to post? It would be nice to see them as you have them set up. Also, does anyone have them raised a bit on stands or large feet?

JeffW

03-15-2015, 04:06 PM

Barry shows his in the first post - and that's a 65" TV in between them for reference.

LowPhreak

03-15-2015, 04:33 PM

Yes, I saw those but I figured we could use a few more. ;)

Dave_72

03-15-2015, 04:59 PM

bubbleboy76

03-16-2015, 04:21 AM

My setup.
Closing my eyes, listening to Neil Young liverecord from -72 on high volume, I am there! It is a time- and space machine :)
There is an 4429 center hidden.
Unfortunately, I am not allowed to ruin the seaview by placing the speakers more out from the walls.
Trust me, this cinema needs no subwoofers :)

LowPhreak

03-16-2015, 09:15 AM

Looks good! :bouncy:

JuniorJBL

03-17-2015, 07:56 AM

4313B

03-19-2015, 04:50 PM

Hi POS,

I believe that rotating 4365 about 90-deg. the 'vertical horn' behavior can be get. may be even compensating time delay between the drivers if the horns are oriented "inner place". I believe that the H4365 diffraction slot would involve better off-axis dispersion while the horn is 'in vertical position'.

So as any 43xx called "book-shelf speaker" 4365 become too, :-))

regards
ivicaI did that briefly just for grins and it doesn't work very well as pos points out in the post after.

G.T. addressed this and said "The horn really needs to be vertical and away from any boundaries." This is regardless of the fact that it has something like a 90 x 50 dispersion pattern.

1audiohack

03-31-2015, 06:41 PM

It's been a while and I want to jump back with an update.

I just hate like hell to be too busy to stop and enjoy the music I love. Today I have spent the entire day (first sick day in several years that I just didn't power through) listening to the 4365's.

At a mean measured level right about 60dB A I have settled in with a +3dB boost at 42hz Q0.7 and the 4365's continue to amaze.

I find it interesting that extraordinary speakers don't grab your attention right away rather they just continue to deliver subtle suprizes in accuracy and naturalness and non stop enjoyment.

They don't have the crazy visceral impact the 4350's have and they give up a very little bit of imaging to the 1400 Arrays which are still in the room but they are nearly in a tie for my favorite speaker with the hotrodded 4350's which I still absolutely love for their ability to do things like sound like a real drum set in the room. For the first time since owning the 4350's I don't know which I would choose if I could keep just one pair.

I don't want to post a list as it feels crass to do so but there is a fair list of "real studio monitors" here that will go away long before these do.

I am so damn glad I bought these!!! In my opinion it would be very well worth selling several pair of vintage monitors to afford a pair of these if thats what one had to do to.

Again I am greatful to Widget for his invaluable assistance in procuring these!

All the best,
Barry.

PS to Shane and George, we really should work out a get together, maybe this fall when the weather breaks even if we have to limit it to a dozen people to fit in my little house. I would love to see you guys again!

JuniorJBL

03-31-2015, 07:26 PM

1audiohack

03-31-2015, 07:46 PM

I would love to have a GTG at your place even if it was limited. I will get George there no matter what!! :D

Thanks for your impressions Barry, and I feel the same since listening to the new woofers with my array horns. They just keep impressing with everything I listen too!!

Just more detail than I can express with my limited vocabulary!!

Those 1500Al's are incredible. Those with the 1200Fe's transformed my 4350's. The difference is something you just have to hear I agree. Who knew a bass guitar could sound so dynamic and real? Most speakers mask the life right out of them. :D

Enjoy my friend!

bubbleboy76

04-01-2015, 05:09 AM

Nice to hear Barry :)

pos

04-01-2015, 05:17 AM

Barry, I think you also have 2216Nd's somewhere.
How are you using them and how do you feel they compare with the 1200/1500 series?

1audiohack

04-01-2015, 10:01 AM

I had those for a month or two a couple of years ago and to be quite honest I don't recall their character in great detail. I do remember thinking that for any kind of domestic use I would never buy 2226's again. :)

I decided to buy a pair two months ago and the part number no longer comes up in spare parts or finished goods and I haven't figured out why.

Barry.

1audiohack

04-12-2015, 07:31 PM

Hi All;

For those interested, here is a long term listening observation regarding the bass balance of the 4365's.

The 4365's are +6dB more sensitive than the 1400 Arrays they displaced. The 1500 Array subs are still in place. The subs have been turned down -1.5dB over the course of time and this seems like the level they will likely stay.

In short, if the 4365's are bass shy, the 1400 Arrays must really suck! Not.

Hopefully for those who have not heard the 4365's but have heard the 1400 Arrays, this will be helpful.

The 4365's continue to amaze, the best loudspeaker money I have ever spent. No doubt.

Wish you were here!

All the best,
Barry.

Mr. Widget

04-12-2015, 10:40 PM

Thanks for the update... interesting details, though not unexpected by me having heard both speakers in my room. I'm really glad to hear you are so happy with them!

Widget

bubbleboy76

04-13-2015, 09:39 AM

Thanks for the comparison, interesting.
Anyone compared 4365 to K2 S4700 or S9000?

Mctwins

04-17-2015, 09:05 AM

Hallo!

I bet it is a great speakers you got there. I will find out next week when I get mine:applaud:

Will open a new thread with pictures:bouncy:

JuniorJBL

04-18-2015, 07:14 AM

That's awesome Barry!!

I am glad you are enjoying your new audio purchase.

My Array 9900's :D are exactly as you describe but I don't have Array 1500's but 2245's instead. Enjoy!!

Dave_72

04-20-2015, 01:59 PM

Thanks for the comparison, interesting.
Anyone compared 4365 to K2 S4700 or S9000?

That can be done, but it would be a real pain in the ass. :confused: I can take my S4700s over to Barry's place, or Barry can bring his 4365s down here to mine. haha. :D ;)

1audiohack

04-23-2015, 10:56 PM

I am not moving these heavy things!

One of my friends just ordered a pair. He has a pristine pair of 4343's currently. What he thinks about them will be interesting to me for sure.

I have a cool story to share: last weekend my daughter and I were listening and the Simon and Garfunkle song The Boxer came on and I was again reminded that I had never figured out what the instument that comes in in the second verse and plays a fairly major part in the third verse was. I had always asked myself what it is but never figured it out.

I asked her, what do you think that is? So we listened to it a couple of times and her thinking went like this: It's not synthesized, listen to all the harmonics and the cut, it's definitely a reid instrument, actually siunds like a double reid but it's not a bassoon, certainly not an oboe,,, I jokingly said do they make really big Kazoos? She said yeah it kind of has that rattle but it's not long, it's not a horn but it's real deep, I don't think I have ever heard it, what ever it is.

So we looked it up, have you ever seen a bass harmonica?!? They are double stacked and 23" long! Some of them have 394 reids! I had no idea.

So in reality, her listening impressions were nearly perfect in trying to guess what it was. I'm a proud papa.

These speakers are far and away the most dynamicly transparent speakers that I have ever had, by a wide margin. We have never been able to listen so far into our music before and, isn't that what they are supposed to be?

I listened to them for three hours tonight and I just can't say enough.

Sorry to gush and blog but they are exciting, I just love them. Go out an getcha some! :)

Barry.

LowPhreak

04-24-2015, 09:02 AM

As soon as I have a 'spare' $15k, I will.

Perhaps in the next life. Not this one. :(

Dave_72

04-24-2015, 12:07 PM

Mr. Widget

04-24-2015, 01:04 PM

question: why aren't the 4365s listed on the Synthesis website?

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/floorstanding-speakers/Because JBL is still being led by the wrong people?

Widget

Mctwins

04-24-2015, 01:28 PM

Hallo!

My speakers just arrived today and must say WOW I am stunned. Sounds great allready:applaud:

I just fired up my new 4365 with my Crown DCi 2/600N and it is like it allready been broken in. I am totally suprised how good it sounds. God damn!!!!

They are heavy as hell...:banghead:

Yet another great speakers from JBL:bouncy:

Will post a new thread with pictures, just now I am to drunk and enjoying the excellent sound:cheers:

4313B

04-24-2015, 01:34 PM

This is awesome news guys! :yes:

Mctwins

04-24-2015, 01:41 PM

This is awesome news guys! :yes:

Absolutely great news:D

Mr. Widget

04-24-2015, 04:44 PM

My speakers just arrived today and must say WOW I am stunned. Sounds great allready:applaud:
I know just what you mean... it didn't take me any time to warm up to them.

Congratulations!

Widget

Mctwins

04-25-2015, 09:05 AM

I know just what you mean... it didn't take me any time to warm up to them.

Congratulations!

Widget

Thanks!

1audiohack

04-25-2015, 03:09 PM

As soon as I have a 'spare' $15k, I will.

Perhaps in the next life. Not this one. :(

I get that. I don't for a minute consider $15K pocket change. I remember when the big blu monitors showed up and the HiFi Shop (of Ogden Utah mass murder fame) had a pair of 4343's or 4345's, I just couldn't afford a pair, no way, no how. I hate debt so I would not borrow for them.

When these were anounced for sale everywhere but the US I was so mad. Half a lifetime later when these became available I went all in. No regrets.

I would really like to compare these directly in my own room over time to the M2's but I have to say that I am not knocked out by D2's I have. I know that they are made all they can be in a very elaborate system so I don't consider my own opinion conclusive.

I am listening to the 4365's right now and couldn't be happier.

All the best,
Barry.

pos

04-25-2015, 03:19 PM

Hi Barry,
Can you please elaborate on your experience with the D2?

1audiohack

04-25-2015, 03:31 PM

Hey Dave72!

I have been thinking about adding a proper listening room on this house since I bought it and now I actually have my sketches and desires list in the hands of an artchitect and I hope to make this a reality before the end of the year. The space is fairly affordable but the interior may have to come along check by check.

If I can get this accomplished at some point, the work involved in moving some stuff around to a safe space large enough to accomodate real comparisons may be worthwhile.

I have come to the realization that my best money spent on sonic improvement will be the environment. I am out of room for more speakers anyway.

All the best,
Barry.

Mr. Widget

04-25-2015, 03:57 PM

I have been thinking about adding a proper listening room on this house since I bought it and now I actually have my sketches and desires list in the hands of an artchitect and I hope to make this a reality before the end of the year.

I have come to the realization that my best money spent on sonic improvement will be the environment.When you think about all the people who spend tens of thousands of dollars on cables and much more on other audio goodies, it really puts things into perspective.

Widget

Dave_72

04-25-2015, 04:02 PM

Dave_72

04-25-2015, 04:03 PM

Because JBL is still being led by the wrong people?

Widget

haha good one.

SEAWOLF97

04-25-2015, 05:53 PM

I am not in the market for 4365's (right now) , but I have read the glowing reviews
and wonder ....

How would they compare to other high end JBL's ( ie: DD6700, M2's, 9900's etc) ??

4313B

04-25-2015, 05:59 PM

I would really like to compare these directly in my own room over time to the M2's but I have to say that I am not knocked out by D2's I have.That I cannot recommend... :no:

I know that they are made all they can be in a very elaborate system...
How would they compare to other high end JBL's ( ie: DD6700, M2's, 9900's etc) ??Yes, the M2 is insanely good. I realize that it is hard for a lot of folks to understand that, but the price/performance ratio of the M2 and recommended amplifiers is staggering.

I'm not a huge fan of the D2 either, it is not a 476Mg or 476Be (And faston connectors on a two thousand dollar transducer? Really?). The fact that the M2 can turn it into a silk purse is just one more reason to admire the M2. ;)

You have an outstanding platform in the 4365. The next level up is full digital between the 1501Fe and 476Mg. It can give an M2 system a run for the money, as could the DD65000, DD66000, and DD67000. I have to be totally honest with respect to the K2-S9900, it just doesn't have the kind of bottom end that I look for in a high performance loudspeaker system. At a similar price point to the M2/Crown system, well, it isn't even a contest...

1audiohack

04-25-2015, 06:55 PM

I am going to come clean on the M2 thing.

Remember the original blowup about the M2 pic here before the official announcement? Here is my part in that. I saw that picture on the JBLPRO site the night before or early that morning. I called my good friend, the one who just ordered a pair of 4365's, and asked him to get on line because there is a new large format monitor on the site. I asked him to get price and a availability on them. He ownes a tier 1 Harman Pro shop so he knows who to call and, he calls Mark Gander directly. Mark asks him, how do you know about these? Now you know the rest of that story.

So, I go on the hook for a pair with the Crown amps and wait, only to have them tell us that since the shop (my friends) won't go on the hook to place a display pair on the floor, they won't sell him/us a pair. It's a buy four and demo or nothing deal. To me that is total bullshit so I said tell you what, when you want to sell a pair through (XXX)' shop send them out, until you will send a pair through him, to hell with them.

I am not afraid of comparing the M2 against the 4365's. I personally would wager that given the same level of DSP attention the 4365 would win.

On another front, my Everest cabinets have made it to LA. I have to make throats and horns for them but other than that I have everything to properly load them. I am undecided on which DSP to use while I am trying to find out what is going to replace the DBX4800. THIS! Is going to be real fun.

Barry.

4313B

04-25-2015, 07:27 PM

So, I go on the hook for a pair with the Crown amps and wait, only to have them tell us that since the shop (my friends) won't go on the hook to place a display pair on the floor, they won't sell him/us a pair. It's a buy four and demo or nothing deal. To me that is total bullshit so I said tell you what, when you want to sell a pair through (XXX)' shop send them out, until you will send a pair through him, to hell with them.The same thing with the waveguides. JBL Pro was downright belligerent with respect to them those first couple years and now a person can buy them from some third party website...

I am not afraid of comparing the M2 against the 4365's. I personally would wager that given the same level of DSP attention the 4365 would win.It should.

On another front, my Everest cabinets have made it to LA. I have to make throats and horns for them but other than that I have everything to properly load them. I am undecided on which DSP to use while I am trying to find out what is going to replace the DBX4800. THIS! Is going to be real fun.So you bought a pair of those Everest enclosures from Denmark?

I have the "half of a DD67000" thing going with single 1501AL-2's instead of dual 1501AL-2's. I went with the 4338/4365 style enclosure to put the DD67000 components in.

1audiohack

04-25-2015, 07:27 PM

Hi Barry,
Can you please elaborate on your experience with the D2?

Hi Thomas!

There is not a lot to tell. I swept them on the PWT, them mounted one to a 4338, on the other side a TruExtent loaded 2451. These are on top of a pair of 4430's I have on my repair bench for amp testing. They are on their sides with the 4338's on top of the layed down cabinetes so they are close to the 2235's.

The D2 (level matched of course) sounds like a very small driver. With it's voice coils wired in series (as I received them) it is also far less efficient. Could you bend it around a bunch with EQ? Of course, but on a cursory glance, I thought, well it would make one hell of a high power tweeter but it doesn't naturally have the large format driver character that I love. I listened to them for a week or two and went back to the 2451Be's.

Somehow I expect to catch hell for passing judgement with so little effort applied and that is why I implied that my opinion is not considered conclusive, even to me.

I bought a pair of little JBL horns from a member here and plan on seeing how hard they will play the 8-10kHz up on the big shop stereo.

For the record, I don't question JBL's use of this driver in the M2. But I haven't invested the time in truly exploring them fully. Someday.

All the best,
Barry.

Mr. Widget

04-25-2015, 07:28 PM

I am not in the market for 4365's (right now) , but I have read the glowing reviews
and wonder ....

How would they compare to other high end JBL's ( ie: DD6700, M2's, 9900's etc) ??I can't speak about the DD67000s or M2s, but I have had the 4365s, 9900s, and my own DD66000s all in my room for days or weeks to audition. Leaving aesthetics off the table I would rate them in order of cost, meaning the most expensive sounds the best and the 4365 follows the 9900... with a fairly large disclaimer. If a subwoofer is out of the question, then the 4365 wins. The upper bass and lower mids of the 9900 are distinctly better, but the lack of low end doesn't suit my musical tastes.

On the DSP topic... I'm leaning in that direction too, but I'm still on the fence as to which one to go with. Also without JBL's anechoic chambers and expertise I am not confident I can dial in a DSP to really be superior. I say that even though I'm well aware that a million folks online have managed to setup their DSPs to make crap speakers sound "better" than all the mega buck systems out there. ;)

Widget

4313B

04-25-2015, 07:38 PM

the 4365 follows the 9900... with a fairly large disclaimer. If a subwoofer is out of the question, then the 4365 wins. The upper bass and lower mids of the 9900 are distinctly better, but the lack of low end doesn't suit my musical tastes.It doesn't have to though with a network swap. ;) I used both the 4365 and S9900 passive filters and the S9900 passive filters sounded better to me. The DD67000 passive network sounds the best of the three though, no real shock there I suppose.

1audiohack

04-25-2015, 07:41 PM

....So you bought a pair of those Everest enclosures from Denmark?

I have the "half of a DD67000" thing going with only a single 1501AL-2's instead of dual 1501AL-2's. I went with the 4338/4365 style enclosure to put the DD67000 components in.

I did.

I currently have the 1501Al-1's in my 4350's. I am going to swap them back out with the 1500Al's and since I am crossing them out a 250Hz they are really not going to give up much.

I have the Everest horn and throat to model as well as the rear port/terminal cover assembly so I will be able to make them right where it counts.

Without naming names and focussing unwanted attention to anyone, I am very greatful to all who have helped me obtain the pieces parts to make this happen! After these are done, if I can buy a pair of M2's I will be done, really,, I mean it,,, really!

How are you liking your DD project? I am interested in what you have done along the way.

I still haven't had the final 4338's cast, grrrr

1audiohack

04-25-2015, 07:51 PM

....Also without JBL's anechoic chambers and expertise I am not confident I can dial in a DSP to really be superior. I say that even though I'm well aware that a million folks online have managed to setup their DSPs to make crap speakers sound "better" than all the mega buck systems out there. ;)

Widget

Funny how that is. It's pretty easy to eak better performance out of a Neon and nearly anyone can. Just try to find one more scrap of performance in an F1 car and see how many people are up the the task.

They just really have no idea.

LowPhreak

04-25-2015, 07:53 PM

I get that. I don't for a minute consider $15K pocket change. I remember when the big blu monitors showed up and the HiFi Shop (of Ogden Utah mass murder fame) had a pair of 4343's or 4345's, I just couldn't afford a pair, no way, no how. I hate debt so I would not borrow for them.

When these were anounced for sale everywhere but the US I was so mad. Half a lifetime later when these became available I went all in. No regrets.

I would really like to compare these directly in my own room over time to the M2's but I have to say that I am not knocked out by D2's I have. I know that they are made all they can be in a very elaborate system so I don't consider my own opinion conclusive.

I am listening to the 4365's right now and couldn't be happier.

All the best,
Barry.

I hear you, Barry. I won't do debt anymore either. Went that road for audio and other things before, and now I'm just cash or it won't happen. :P That story about Harman and the arm-twisting, all I can say is for christsakes. Eh, actually I wasn't surprised. Took them nearly a year to send replacement grilles for the 590s.

I think a better/dedicated room is some of the best money one could spend on audio, assuming the rest is up to reasonable par of course. Wish you luck on it!

4313B

04-25-2015, 07:57 PM

I did.Awesome! :)

How are you liking your DD project? I am interested in what you have done along the way.I think I'm done, wait, I know I'm done. I am thoroughly pleased with the single 1501AL-2 and 476Be/H4338 in the 4338/4365 style box, blue baffle and all. I went so far as to buy a pair of the 4338 grilles rather than make my own. I tried the 4365, S9900 and all three DD6x000 passive filters and the DD67000 passive filters are so good that I might not bother finalizing any DSP solution. I am getting lazy. :D

I also have the 2216Nd and 476Mg/M2 waveguide DSP system that I need to build new boxes for. They have morphed a lot. I originally used 2206H's with PT-H1010 waveguides, played around with the various LE14H-3, 150xFE and 150xAL transducers and ended up with the 2216Nd's. So, M2 clones with the D2 replaced by the 476Mg.

I still haven't had the final 4338's cast, grrrrI've given up on the JBL LCR thing so I won't be looking for a third H4338 or M2 waveguide. It is a relief to finally get that out of my head. I'm very happy with my Tannoy 7.2 HT and have abandoned plans to replace it with either of the JBL systems in an LCR configuration. The primary reason for that is the Tannoy HT system is very family friendly and I don't have to worry about the JBL's getting damaged. If I blow a Tannoy transducer they just send me a new one without any hassles unlike JBL. I have to take JBL to the mat for every single thing. I've only blown one Tannoy so far and that was caused by an HK AVR 7200 going rogue. G.T. always said that it was a question of when and not if. He was correct, naturally. :D Plus, point source is just too cool for HT anyway. :)

JeffW

04-25-2015, 08:00 PM

I still haven't had the final 4338's cast, grrrr

Yeah, but one of these days you'll want tweeters/housings for those 66000s :hmm:

:D

4313B

04-25-2015, 08:11 PM

On the DSP topic... I'm leaning in that direction too, but I'm still on the fence as to which one to go with. Also without JBL's anechoic chambers and expertise I am not confident I can dial in a DSP to really be superior.You might want to ask G.T. where he is currently at with his Everest/DSP endeavors. Last I heard he was using all proprietary DSP filters so it wasn't like anyone could follow suit with their pair of Everests.

1audiohack

04-26-2015, 03:42 PM

Yeah, but one of these days you'll want tweeters/housings for those 66000s :hmm:

:D

Don't think for a second I forgot about that. ;)

1audiohack

04-26-2015, 03:51 PM

Awesome! :)

I think I'm done, wait, I know I'm done. I am thoroughly pleased with the single 1501AL-2 and 476Be/H4338 in the 4338/4365 style box, blue baffle and all. I went so far as to buy a pair of the 4338 grilles rather than make my own. I tried the 4365, S9900 and all three DD6x000 passive filters and the DD67000 passive filters are so good that I might not bother finalizing any DSP solution. I am getting lazy. :D

I also have the 2216Nd and 476Mg/M2 waveguide DSP system that I need to build new boxes for. They have morphed a lot. I originally used 2206H's with PT-H1010 waveguides, played around with the various LE14H-3, 150xFE and 150xAL transducers and ended up with the 2216Nd's. So, M2 clones with the D2 replaced by the 476Mg.

I've given up on the JBL LCR thing so I won't be looking for a third H4338 or M2 waveguide. It is a relief to finally get that out of my head. I'm very happy with my Tannoy 7.2 HT and have abandoned plans to replace it with either of the JBL systems in an LCR configuration. The primary reason for that is the Tannoy HT system is very family friendly and I don't have to worry about the JBL's getting damaged. If I blow a Tannoy transducer they just send me a new one without any hassles unlike JBL. I have to take JBL to the mat for every single thing. I've only blown one Tannoy so far and that was caused by an HK AVR 7200 going rogue. G.T. always said that it was a question of when and not if. He was correct, naturally. :D Plus, point source is just too cool for HT anyway. :)

My short and honest answer to all of that is that I am genuinely glad that you are headed toward peace of mind on this front. Good for you.

It's empowering when one can sweep a bunch of stuff off the list and enjoy whats within reach. This is a lesson that I am finally learning. S L O W L Y!

All the best,
Barry.

Dave_72

04-27-2015, 09:48 AM

I can't speak about the DD67000s or M2s, but I have had the 4365s, 9900s, and my own DD66000s all in my room for days or weeks to audition. Leaving aesthetics off the table I would rate them in order of cost, meaning the most expensive sounds the best and the 4365 follows the 9900... with a fairly large disclaimer. If a subwoofer is out of the question, then the 4365 wins. The upper bass and lower mids of the 9900 are distinctly better, but the lack of low end doesn't suit my musical tastes.

On the DSP topic... I'm leaning in that direction too, but I'm still on the fence as to which one to go with. Also without JBL's anechoic chambers and expertise I am not confident I can dial in a DSP to really be superior. I say that even though I'm well aware that a million folks online have managed to setup their DSPs to make crap speakers sound "better" than all the mega buck systems out there. ;)

Widget

I take it you've heard the 9900s extensively...:D That's interesting on the lack of low end when it's an Alnico driver. Just sayin'. I happen to like them...a lot.

4313B

04-27-2015, 10:19 AM

I take it you've heard the 9900s extensively...:D That's interesting on the lack of low end when it's an Alnico driver. Just sayin'. I happen to like them...a lot.The S9900 enclosure was made smaller than "usual" and it used a specific variant of the 1500AL (1500AL-1) but you know what they say, there's no substitute for cubic inches, in this case, cubic feet. The S9900 uses a 3.4 cubic foot volume. The 4365 uses a 4.2 cubic foot volume. Around 4.6 cubic feet is optimum for the other versions of the 1500AL (1501AL, 1501AL-1, 1501AL-2) and that is what the Everest II enclosure offers x2.

Dave_72

04-27-2015, 02:20 PM

The S9900 enclosure was made smaller than "usual" and it used a specific variant of the 1500AL (1500AL-1) but you know what they say, there's no substitute for cubic inches, in this case, cubic feet. The S9900 uses a 3.4 cubic foot volume. The 4365 uses a 4.2 cubic foot volume. Around 4.6 cubic feet is optimum for the other versions of the 1500AL (1501AL, 1501AL-1, 1501AL-2) and that is what the Everest II enclosure offers x2.

Ok. So basically, you feel JBL screwed up in the design of the K2. I highly doubt that, but what the Hell do I know.

Don C

04-27-2015, 03:28 PM

They compromised on this design in a different way than he would have chosen. That's all.

Mr. Widget

04-27-2015, 05:17 PM

They compromised on this design in a different way than he would have chosen. That's all.Exactly... many people find that package extremely desirable.

Widget

JuniorJBL

04-27-2015, 05:23 PM

They compromised on this design in a different way than he would have chosen. That's all.

I would have to agree. After putting the 1500AL's in the B380 cab with the 476Mg's on top I was all but done.

It was much different than the S9900's I have listened to. :)

4313B

04-27-2015, 05:42 PM

They compromised on this design in a different way than he would have chosen. That's all.
Exactly... many people find that package extremely desirable.Perfect!
Thank you :)

Dave_72

04-28-2015, 07:34 AM

They compromised on this design in a different way than he would have chosen. That's all.

Oh ok, so is it a case of he knows better than JBL, or what?

Anyway, it's a great speaker, and I'm sticking to it.

JeffW

04-28-2015, 07:51 AM

Oh ok, so is it a case of he knows better than JBL, or what?

No, it's a case of JBL designing a speaker and selling it as designed. What anybody else does with drivers that JBL doesn't even want the public to own never even entered into their design considerations.

Same tired old argument with the D66000 when some people decided JBL didn't design them correctly since people were augmenting the bass with subwoofers.

4313B never said he "knew better" than JBL. He just utilized the drivers differently than JBL did. His drivers, his design, his preference.

JBL uses pretty specific voicing on some of their speakers, the 9900 and 66000 both come to mind. Could they have changed their designs to squeeze a few more Hz of bass from them? Sure. But they didn't, and I bet they didn't for a reason. That somebody else used the drivers and voiced a different design is neither here nor there, it's just different.

pos

04-28-2015, 08:03 AM

bottom line: use EQ :D

SEAWOLF97

04-28-2015, 08:48 AM

Could they have changed their designs to squeeze a few more Hz of bass from them? Sure. But they didn't, and I bet they didn't for a reason.

I have read somewhere here (library ?) that the 66000 was designed for Japan and that voicing
uses a more rolled off bottom end.

Don C

04-28-2015, 08:54 AM

If JBL market research thinks that a 3 cubic foot version will sell a few more units than a 5 cubic foot version, they'll sell the smaller version. If they think that a Beats audio version with big thumpy bass will sell better, maybe we'll have that soon. If they think that a larger version of a 15 inch three way will cannibalise sales from their twin woofer version, and reduce their profits, maybe we'll never see the larger single woofer version.
Nobody is claiming that they know better than JBL, just that different choices give different results, in line with different tastes or uses.

Oh ok, so is it a case of he knows better than JBL, or what?

Anyway, it's a great speaker, and I'm sticking to it.

This is a case of you putting your own words in other people's mouths. I don't understand why you insist on doing this.

gcarlberg

04-28-2015, 09:17 AM

Very, very nice speakers, congratulations! :)

+1 http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon14.png

4313B

04-28-2015, 09:36 AM

Oh ok, so is it a case of he knows better than JBL, or what?It is a case of me taking the time to listen carefully to what the designer of the system tells me. It is a case of me understanding why they use the various components and filters they use in the various systems they design and build.

Anyway, it's a great speaker, and I'm sticking to it.Indeed. The designer of the system uses a pair as his rear channels in his HT.

This is a case of you putting your own words in other people's mouths. I don't understand why you insist on doing this.Yeah, I know I just don't have the patience to explain myself anymore. I think a lot of people don't post at all because it is too much of a hassle.

grumpy

04-28-2015, 10:20 AM

I'd be -very- happy with an S9900 pair for 95% of my 2ch listening time...
for me, that's a damn fine score for -any- speaker. I'd guess the 4365's
are in a similar category when set up properly (including room).

So you can imagine I'd be keen to hear a M2 setup :)

4313B

04-28-2015, 10:38 AM

I'd be -very- happy with an S9900 pair for 95% of my 2ch listening time...
for me, that's a damn fine score for -any- speaker. I'd guess the 4365's
are in a similar category when set up properly (including room).I know for a fact that my wife would prefer a pair of K2-S9900's sitting in our living room instead of some unfinished MDF monstrosities...

Dave_72

04-29-2015, 12:16 PM

This is a case of you putting your own words in other people's mouths. I don't understand why you insist on doing this.

Well, I'm merely asking if that's what he or she is saying before I respond. If that's a criminal act, so be it.

Dave_72

04-29-2015, 12:18 PM

It is a case of me taking the time to listen carefully to what the designer of the system tells me. It is a case of me understanding why they use the various components and filters they use in the various systems they design and build.

Indeed. The designer of the system uses a pair as his rear channels in his HT.

Yeah, I know I just don't have the patience to explain myself anymore. I think a lot of people don't post at all because it is too much of a hassle.

Let me ask you; have you heard or owned the K2s, and heard them thoroughly to make such judgments? If not, then you don't have much of a leg to stand on.

If you're going by graphs, pink noise, and test tones, that doesn't fly with me.

grumpy

04-29-2015, 12:27 PM

"Indeed. The designer of the system uses a pair as his rear channels in his HT."

Perhaps you're not seeing this statement as fairly high praise... LOL.

No point poking at 4313B... There's been much offered and much learned over the years.

4313B

04-29-2015, 12:29 PM

Let me ask you; have you heard or owned the K2s, and heard them thoroughly to make such judgments? If not, then you don't have much of a leg to stand on.

If you're going by graphs, pink noise, and test tones, that doesn't fly with me.You crack me up... No really, you do. :)

LowPhreak

04-29-2015, 03:27 PM

There will be no humorous outbursts tolerated around here. This is a serious bunch of mofos. TYVM.

Carry on...

:smthsail:

Dave_72

04-29-2015, 11:50 PM

You crack me up... No really, you do. :)

Likewise!

hjames

04-30-2015, 03:02 AM

So - is this all about whether Dave made the wrong choice buying what he did,
or is there a deeper element at play here ...
Lot of money at stake with this one!

I mean, 2 threads to argue this back and forth,
I 'spose its like the man said, serious mofos in discussion here!

4313B

04-30-2015, 07:47 AM

I mean, 2 threads to argue this back and forth,
I 'spose its like the man said, serious mofos in discussion here!There is nothing to argue. The systems are designed as they are and the designer is thoroughly familiar with the myriad design goals of each of them. Some people will prefer one over the other(s) for whatever reason(s).

The best part is that all of these systems are very high on the desirability list. Some are more user friendly, some work in smaller rooms as opposed to larger rooms, some work better with more boundary reinforcement, and some have more peak potential than others but they all are pretty amazing right out of their shipping cartons.

Mr. Widget

04-30-2015, 08:27 AM

The best part is that all of these systems are very high on the desirability list. Some are more user friendly, some work in smaller rooms as opposed to larger rooms, some work better with more boundary reinforcement, and some have more peak potential than others but they all are pretty amazing right out of their shipping cartons.I couldn't agree more... now about those 4365s!:applaud:

Widget

Dave_72

04-30-2015, 08:27 AM

So - is this all about whether Dave made the wrong choice buying what he did,

Not at all. However, I did get buyer's remorse by letting these so-called "experts" allow me to believe that the S4700s suck compared to the 1400 Arrays and S3900s. But then I wised up, and now I'm just challenging the so called "expertise" of people who have never heard and never owned any of these speakers. So, when they do, they can get back to me. Otherwise, I'll keep taking what they have to say with a grain of salt. It's all bs at this point.

Mr. Widget

04-30-2015, 08:39 AM

Not at all. However, I did get buyer's remorse by letting these so-called "experts" allow me to believe that the S4700s suck compared to the 1400 Arrays and S3900s. But then I wised up, and now I'm just challenging the so called "expertise" of people who have never heard and never owned any of these speakers. So, when they do, they can get back to me. Otherwise, I'll keep taking what they have to say with a grain of salt. It's all bs at this point.I think the issue isn't what people say but how you are interpreting it. I don't think I've ever read anywhere on this forum that the S4700s suck. I may have posted that I heard them in a hotel room and was unimpressed... that isn't an endorsement or condemnation.

I know we have discussed their driver compliment, and they certainly don't have the caliber of HF drivers that the 4365s have, but then good drivers alone are no guarantee of a great sounding speaker. JBL has put both designs out into the marketplace at the same retail price. I don't think they would do that if they thought the S4700s sucked.

I will agree with you that there are people who listen with their eyes, both from an aesthetic design standpoint and others who read reviews or graphs... the fact is that two speakers can measure nominally the same and sound significantly different... but we've been all over this topic on other threads. Measurements are critical in the design process but so is critical listening. Luckily for us the people at Harman understand both.

Widget

JeffW

04-30-2015, 09:49 AM

now I'm just challenging the so called "expertise" of people who have never heard and never owned any of these speakers. So, when they do, they can get back to me. Otherwise, I'll keep taking what they have to say with a grain of salt. It's all bs at this point.

While he may not have owned any, I'd be pretty surprised if 4313B has never heard the K2 9900.

I couldn't agree more... now about those 4365s!:applaud:

Widget

Seems like I recall the early opinions of these weren't all that flattering, yet there are at least two recent threads where the actual owners seem very pleased :dont-know:

A wise man once said, "Opinions vary".

Mr. Widget

04-30-2015, 10:15 AM

Seems like I recall the early opinions of these weren't all that flattering, yet there are at least two recent threads where the actual owners seem very pleased :dont-know:

A wise man once said, "Opinions vary".And opinions are only that. :D

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that I won't fully accept anyone's endorsement or condemnation. I always try to get a piece into my listening room for an extended listening session before I feel like I can decide to buy or pass on a piece of gear. Take the M2s for example. They have been universally praised. I am still waiting to get a pair to listen to before I will consider adding them to my stable.

And FWIW, while I have and use measurement gear, I rarely use it with finished goods... I carefully listen to music I'm familiar with in a familiar room. I believe this is the best way to judge equipment. If something seems terribly wrong, a measurement or two can help sleuth out the problem.

Widget

4313B

04-30-2015, 10:43 AM

Not at all. However, I did get buyer's remorse by letting these so-called "experts" allow me to believe that the S4700s suck compared to the 1400 Arrays and S3900s. But then I wised up, and now I'm just challenging the so called "expertise" of people who have never heard and never owned any of these speakers. So, when they do, they can get back to me. Otherwise, I'll keep taking what they have to say with a grain of salt. It's all bs at this point.

I don't think I've ever read anywhere on this forum that the S4700s suck.I'm sorry but I too am unable to recall anyone stating that the S4700 sucked. I vaguely remember a couple of owners of S4700's whining about this or that but I just chalked that whining up to user error. Maybe a different forum?

The designer of the S4700 stated on several occasions that he was quite pleased with how they came out. He also provided us with the DBX settings he suggested using in order to bi-amp them.

And opinions are only that. :D

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that I won't fully accept anyone's endorsement or condemnation. I always try to get a piece into my listening room for an extended listening session before I feel like I can decide to buy or pass on a piece of gear. Take the M2s for example. They have been universally praised. I am still waiting to get a pair to listen to before I will consider adding them to my stable. And it may very well be that they won't even make your top ten. Who knows?

Wagner

04-30-2015, 12:01 PM

I know for a fact that my wife would prefer a pair of K2-S9900's sitting in our living room instead of some unfinished MDF monstrosities...
I would be very happy if I could have any of them

Dave_72

05-01-2015, 01:55 AM

I think the issue isn't what people say but how you are interpreting it. I don't think I've ever read anywhere on this forum that the S4700s suck. I may have posted that I heard them in a hotel room and was unimpressed... that isn't an endorsement or condemnation.

I know we have discussed their driver compliment, and they certainly don't have the caliber of HF drivers that the 4365s have, but then good drivers alone are no guarantee of a great sounding speaker. JBL has put both designs out into the marketplace at the same retail price. I don't think they would do that if they thought the S4700s sucked.

I will agree with you that there are people who listen with their eyes, both from an aesthetic design standpoint and others who read reviews or graphs... the fact is that two speakers can measure nominally the same and sound significantly different... but we've been all over this topic on other threads. Measurements are critical in the design process but so is critical listening. Luckily for us the people at Harman understand both.

Widget

No, there have been clear statements posted here saying that the 1400s and S3900s are better than the S4700s. I don't care anymore, again, it's all bs to me at this point.

I'm glad to hear Harman understands that, and I agree about understanding both; measurements and listening. I am a subjectivist, I'm not a die hard where measurements don't mean a hill of beans. I think that's short-sighted just as much as the notion that measurements tell the whole story. It's definitely a hot potato in the audio/video world, and this isn't the only forum that's been all over the topic. However, I hate to say it, but it's usually the objecitivists that stir the pot, start the arguments, and create the mayhem.

4313B

05-01-2015, 04:58 AM

No, there have been clear statements posted here saying that the 1400s and S3900s are better than the S4700s. I don't care anymore, again, it's all bs to me at this point.Unfortunately some of us prefer actual examples so please point us to these statements. I couldn't find any in my search, granted the search function built in to this website isn't very robust.

And quite frankly, as many others have asked, what do you care anyway?

I'm going to print it one more time - The S4700 does not suck. Furthermore the designer of that system has stated on several occasions that he is very pleased with how it turned out and, to be real blunt, that is worth more than a ton of negative posts. For some bizarre reason you insist on being butthurt about some perceived "insults" instead of owning the above statements. You own the loudspeakers so why not own the designer's statements that go along with them? I would. I asked him once a few years back "4365 or S4700?" and his response was unequivocally "S4700". There you have it. Own it, unless, of course, you personally prefer the 4365 or K2-S9900, in which case, go buy some. :D

However, I hate to say it, but it's usually the objectivists that stir the pot, start the arguments, and create the mayhem.There are whole industries built on pandering to subjectivists.

I have told you before that some of us like to provide the data or facts associated with various systems and then discuss what we would do differently. Occasionally the same person that designed your S4700 is in on those discussions. Yep, he too likes DIY. His personal pair of Everest II's are heavily modified, I'm paraphrasing here "My Everest's are light years beyond anything we've ever done here at JBL. I am very pleased with them."

*****

Ok. So basically, you feel JBL screwed up in the design of the K2. I highly doubt that, but what the Hell do I know.

Oh ok, so is it a case of he knows better than JBL, or what?

Who even posts stuff like this? And then continues even after other people have tried, in vain, to "translate"?

All this tells me is that you haven't been paying a whole lot of attention for the last several years. I have read some of your posts and it's like you completely discount or dismiss several posts above yours so you can continue with your personal attacks. I'm glad you edited some of your posts. I do that too. In the heat of the moment I type things and then later think "Now what did I do that for? I didn't really mean that. It seemed like a good idea in the moment but now it reads awful." More often than not though I just delete a whole bunch of stuff that I typed because I don't want to deal with having to explain any of it. It becomes burdensome, especially when people "translate" it incorrectly. I take partial blame, I'm not a grammar and composition expert by any stretch.

What if I posted something like "Why is G.T modifying his Everest II's??? Did he screw up each of the three different versions of the Everest II that went into production??? Does he think he knows better than JBL??? WTH???

:rotfl:

1audiohack

05-01-2015, 07:02 AM

"Why is G.T modifying his Everest II's??? Did he screw up each of the three different versions of the Everest II that went into production??? Does he think he knows better than JBL??? WTH???[/I]

:rotfl:

Well you did post it. And and and now I'm left with it, and and I have to somehow deal with it,,, My Everests will never be what his are, aaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuggghhhhhhhh!

The truth is master pieces are never finished, they are simply abandoned for other work.

Barry.

4313B

05-01-2015, 07:26 AM

Well you did post it. And and and now I'm left with it, and and I have to somehow deal with it,,, My Everests will never be what his are, aaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuggghhhhhhhh!Neither will mine. :o:
Oh wait... I abandoned that project! :)

Dave_72

05-01-2015, 07:41 AM

Unfortunately some of us prefer actual examples so please point us to these statements. I couldn't find any in my search, granted the search function built in to this website isn't very robust.

And quite frankly, as many others have asked, what do you care anyway?

I'm going to print it one more time - The S4700 does not suck. Furthermore the designer of that system has stated on several occasions that he is very pleased with how it turned out and, to be real blunt, that is worth more than a ton of negative posts. For some bizarre reason you insist on being butthurt about some perceived "insults" instead of owning the above statements. You own the loudspeakers so why not own the designer's statements that go along with them? I would. I asked him once a few years back "4365 or S4700?" and his response was unequivocally "S4700". There you have it. Own it, unless, of course, you personally prefer the 4365 or K2-S9900, in which case, go buy some. :D

There are whole industries built on pandering to subjectivists.

I have told you before that some of us like to provide the data or facts associated with various systems and then discuss what we would do differently. Occasionally the same person that designed your S4700 is in on those discussions. Yep, he too likes DIY. His personal pair of Everest II's are heavily modified, I'm paraphrasing here "My Everest's are light years beyond anything we've ever done here at JBL. I am very pleased with them."

*****

Ok. So basically, you feel JBL screwed up in the design of the K2. I highly doubt that, but what the Hell do I know.

Oh ok, so is it a case of he knows better than JBL, or what?

Who even posts stuff like this? And then continues even after other people have tried, in vain, to "translate"?

All this tells me is that you haven't been paying a whole lot of attention for the last several years. I have read some of your posts and it's like you completely discount or dismiss several posts above yours so you can continue with your personal attacks. I'm glad you edited some of your posts. I do that too. In the heat of the moment I type things and then later think "Now what did I do that for? I didn't really mean that. It seemed like a good idea in the moment but now it reads awful." More often than not though I just delete a whole bunch of stuff that I typed because I don't want to deal with having to explain any of it. It becomes burdensome, especially when people "translate" it incorrectly. I take partial blame, I'm not a grammar and composition expert by any stretch.

What if I posted something like "Why is G.T modifying his Everest II's??? Did he screw up each of the three different versions of the Everest II that went into production??? Does he think he knows better than JBL??? WTH???

:rotfl:

I am not on trial here, I've done nothing wrong, and I don't have to be held accountable to your absurd accusations. I stand by what I said 100 percent, more or less. So, continue to play judge and jury here, I'm not falling for your slick tactics to get me banned from this board and to get everyone to swoop down on me like a pack of vultures...I appreciate everything the admins have done such as plug my audio club. But, maybe this isn't the place for me. I certainly don't wish to hang around somewhere with characters such as yourself. Good day.

4313B

05-01-2015, 07:45 AM

I am not on trial here, I've done nothing wrong, and I don't have to be held accountable to your absurd accusations. I stand by what I said 100 percent, more or less. So, continue to play judge and jury here, I'm not falling for your slick tactics to get me banned from this board and to get everyone to swoop down on me like a pack of vultures...I appreciate everything the admins have done such as plug my audio club. But, maybe this isn't the place for me. I certainly don't wish to hang around somewhere with characters such as yourself. Good day.Where have I heard this drivel before... :yawn:
It isn't a question.

BTW - We all have an appreciation for your Las Vegas Audio Club endeavors and I sincerely hope that continues to be enjoyable for you. But you just don't get anything I mean so yeah, you might not belong here. I certainly can't understand much of anything you post. :blink: You were the only person I had on ignore for the past several years and for some bizarre reason I took you off ignore recently. And here we are again... you just keep poking at me for some idiotic reason.

I have no problem at all with putting you back on ignore if you want to stay and chit chat with all your friends. :) To be blunt with you, I'm all but done with this stuff. Audio isn't even in my top ten anymore. I believe that I alluded to as much in an earlier post in this thread. So it isn't like I am going to stick around and accuse you in absurd ways. ;)

Maybe you can get the admins to clean all my posts out of this thread so it looks nice and on-track with respect to the 4365? :yes:

1audiohack

05-01-2015, 10:27 AM

Hmmm. Not sure what to think. If anyone takes what I say as an offense, I have been misunderstood.

I sincerly try not to offend, and I choose not to be offended.

Barry.

4313B

05-01-2015, 10:37 AM

Hmmm. Not sure what to think. If anyone takes what I say as an offense, I have been misunderstood.

I sincerly try not to offend, and I choose not to be offended.

Barry.I know what I think. I think the Internet leaves too much room for miscommunication and misinterpretation. The fact that you have a friendship with this guy goes along way in my thinking that he probably isn't as insufferable as my perception would have me believe.

I've come to the conclusion that I have poor written communication skills. I can deal with that. I'm sorry for my part in screwing up your nice thread. I would sincerely like to hear your various projects in addition to your groovy new 4365's. I really think that they are quite impressive. :) Maybe someday. :dont-know:

LowPhreak

05-01-2015, 11:36 AM

I would be very happy if I could have any of them

I'd be in that camp. But you know what they say, "you don't miss the water 'til the well runs dry".

From what I've seen around here I might prefer the 2216ND over the 1501FE, though I'd imagine not many get a chance to side-by-side the S4700 and 4365. :dont-know:

4313B

05-01-2015, 11:50 AM

I'd be in that camp. But you know what they say, "you don't miss the water 'til the well runs dry".

From what I've seen around here I might prefer the 2216ND over the 1501FE, though I'd imagine not many get a chance to side-by-side the S4700 and 4365. :dont-know:Maybe... Maybe not.
My subjective opinion is that a person can't go wrong with any of them (1500FE series, 1500AL series, 2216Nd). I remember a time when there was only the 2235H.

Mr. Widget

05-01-2015, 11:52 AM

From what I've seen around here I might prefer the 2216ND over the 1501FE, though I'd imagine not many get a chance to side-by-side the S4700 and 4365. :dont-know:Well if they come out with a lower Fs 2216ND and replace the 1500FE in the 4365... a 4370 perhaps? Hmmm.....

Widget

Mr. Widget

05-01-2015, 11:55 AM

My subjective opinion is that a person can't go wrong with any of them (1500FE series, 1500AL series, 2216Nd). I remember a time when there was only the 2235H.Yes they have come a long way!

Widget

1audiohack

05-01-2015, 12:01 PM

Hi 43;

I am glad that you have spent some time here.

I feel you have nothing to be sorry for. I for one like your humor and appreciate your knowledge. The fact you share so much with us is also much appreciated by me.

About the interpretation on the web thing, you are surely right. Like I said, I choose to not be offended. In general, people know how to offend. I know I can and if I wanted to, the person in my focus would damn sure know it.

All good here!
Barry.

1audiohack

05-01-2015, 12:37 PM

Hi Dave;

It seems that you feel that you are always under attack here. From the outside I don't see it that way. Be at ease and of good cheer.

Your welcome here too.

Barry.

BMWCCA

05-01-2015, 04:40 PM

I know what I think. I think the Internet leaves too much room for miscommunication and misinterpretation.

I've been both offended and an offender in Internet forums and can easily see both sides as to why what is seemingly innocuous to one participant will seem antagonistic to another. I make it a habit to remember the names of those who have been helpful and to quickly forget the names of those who want only to spar. It makes enjoying participation in a forum much easier—for me and for the others. I don't hold grudges and I don't judge.

In the end I receive more from my participation than I am able to give back, so I appreciate everyone who contributes. I enjoy a lively discussion, but always remember that we're dealing with the Internet which is uniformly impersonal and fails to translate nuances important to human interaction. But it's what we have, so let's make the best of it!

I find in all my endeavors that adhering to the Golden Rule seems to be the best way forward. Though I often must remember to ask myself if I'm really treating others the way I myself would like to be treated.
:cheers:

Wagner

05-01-2015, 08:17 PM

I enjoy a lively discussion, but always remember that we're dealing with the Internet which is uniformly impersonal and fails to translate nuances important to human interaction. But it's what we have, so let's make the best of it!

I find it more a matter the complexities of the English language than any "uniformly impersonal" shortcomings of the internet; without a vast awareness of the seemingly infinite inflections, accents (regional dialects) and articulated subtleties of English (all being simultaneously understood by all parties involved), along with a requisite universal possession of an excellent (thorough and extensive) command of an accurate, exhaustive and uniform vocabulary being enjoyed by all participants as well, these problems will continue and invariably arise. (if a "thread" lasts long enough)

Too much of our language today has been bastardized and vocabulary reassigned new meaning, along with the fact that few folks are effective writers despite what they may think (if they were, we'd all be writing the next "Great American Novel" instead of posting here :)) But even those manage to find their detractors.

I have just recently had several unfortunate "go-rounds" (misconstrued words which led to offense) with my Son along these same lines; all due to the fact that we have had to rely extensively on the use of "email" the past few years (college and graduate school) and even more so since he joined the Military.

It's easy and it happened to us. This with a guy who is my best friend and with whom language, better yet understanding one another, has NEVER been an issue (and keep in mind, this is someone who I have literally known his entire life).

English is an incredibly difficult language on many levels; there are others (languages) which translate more safely to this medium of communication.

Ultimately, I sincerely believe that all of these "electronic" vehicles are doing more to damage our ability to communicate conversationally than they are to helping it; anything beyond short and concise conveyances of "data" (and superfluous bull shit).

More than a few of the "millennials" I encounter on a day to day basis are incapable of carrying on a coherent conversation, in person face to face, with the spoken word, let alone "writing" (maybe some of you with "under 25" age daughters can appreciate what I am saying). With our "culture"'s seemingly inexhaustible insistence on using "gadgets" for the day to day, that unfortunate reality is only going to get worse. Technology is fast changing the way we think, it is even changing the way we see, literally, and not all for the good I am afraid.

BMWCCA

05-01-2015, 08:45 PM

More than a few of the "millennials" I encounter on a day to day basis are incapable of carrying on a coherent conversation, in person face to face, with the spoken word, let alone "writing" (maybe some of you with "under 25" age daughters can appreciate what I am saying).
I have three daughters ages 20 to 29. They are all incredibly articulate, able to write well, and converse effectively. I blame it on the fact that they have always been voracious readers.

I don't blame poor Internet communication on language foibles. It's more poor reading comprehension or attention, and the lack of communicating emotions, sarcasm, humor, and nuance effectively in an electronic form.

In my business I always assume someone who distrusts others is perhaps someone who shouldn't be trusted themselves. Perhaps on the Internet, someone who infers cruelty and meanness from a post is just as likely to be mean-spirited in their own dealings?

Maybe it's time for this thread to get back to these great speakers?

Mr. Widget

05-01-2015, 08:55 PM

Maybe it's time for this thread to get back to these great speakers?Undoubtedly.

I would like to thank ALL of the participants of this thread who have managed to stay reasonably civil even though they may have had strong and contrary opinions.

Widget

Wagner

05-01-2015, 10:21 PM

It's more poor reading comprehension or attention..........

Exactly! So please take note that I wrote "more than a few", not all.

I am certain. and happy you are very proud of your daughters.

Thank you for reiterating the balance of my observations.

bubbleboy76

05-02-2015, 12:54 AM

Well if they come out with a lower Fs 2216ND and replace the 1500FE in the 4365... a 4370 perhaps? Hmmm.....

Widget

It is not 1500FE in the 4365. It is 1501FE with cloth surround.

It is interesting that GT says S4700 is more preferable than 4365. I wonder what he meant more specifically.
On paper the 4365 has better HF-transducer and the S4700 has better LF. So that should make it more or less status quo? Better crossover network in S4700?

pos

05-02-2015, 01:07 AM

I am not sure the 2216nd is considered "better" than the 1501Fe.
I think it is well suited for the M2 partly because of the shape of the cone that allows for a smoother directivity transition between the woofer and the horn (as explained by Charles Sprinkle). The wire material might also be better in terms of dynamics, but beside that it looks like the 1501Fe has lower distortion down low, and other interesting goodies. The sandwich cone looks identical to the 1501AL-2.

4313B

05-02-2015, 02:50 AM

It is not 1500FE in the 4365. It is 1501FE with cloth surround.

It is interesting that GT says S4700 is more preferable than 4365. I wonder what he meant more specifically.
On paper the 4365 has better HF-transducer and the S4700 has better LF. So that should make it more or less status quo? Better crossover network in S4700?Personal preference?

Also, within the context of the conversation at the time, the 4365 wasn't available in the U.S. so that could possibly have been a factor in the answer, although I am pretty sure that it was primarily that he was very happy with the way the S4700 had come together. Another factor could possibly have been how other people at JBL responded to both systems?

Basically what it comes down to for me personally is, if I had a pair of S4700's they would stay stock. I wouldn't screw around with them. They are plug and play. In short, I would be happy with them just as they are. I have a pair of Tannoy loudspeakers that I feel the same way about. I will never modify them.

The 4365's on the other hand I consider fair game. I like the individual components, I like the fact that some of them are also used to great effect in the K2-S9900 and DD65000. I like the modification potential.

Despite his answer I went with the 4365 components.

Oh and yes, crossover networks are a major component.

4313B

05-02-2015, 03:20 AM

bubbleboy76

05-02-2015, 05:41 AM

The 4365's on the other hand I consider fair game. I like the individual components, I like the fact that some of them are also used to great effect in the K2-S9900 and DD65000. I like the modification potential.

This is interesting to me as an owner of 4365. What is, to you, the modification potential? Anything specific you are thinking of?

4313B

05-02-2015, 06:15 AM

This is interesting to me as an owner of 4365. What is, to you, the modification potential? Anything specific you are thinking of?Beyond bi-amping, replacing the passive filter with an active filter and DSP solution in a similar manner as JBL did with the M2.

One option is to run voltage drives of the stock passive filter and then plug those voltage drives into an active DSP solution such as a Crown.

Another option would be to tune the enclosure lower and apply the kind of boost JBL applies in the M2. I started with the M2 file and then tweaked it for the 4365 components in the enclosure I built. It came out very well. I was quite pleased.

One doesn't necessarily have to do anything with the passive filter on the 045, just leave it in, or out, whichever one prefers. I didn't bother with the 045's at all but that is just me and it doesn't mean that I won't in the future. I have the passive filters and can hook them up whenever. Once I veneer the enclosures and get them where I want them located I'll do the whole room measurement / loudspeaker adjustment gig. I have no doubt that the final Crown file will be different than what it was when I took it all apart to veneer.

bubbleboy76

05-02-2015, 09:05 AM

Beyond bi-amping, replacing the passive filter with an active filter and DSP solution in a similar manner as JBL did with the M2.

One option is to run voltage drives of the stock passive filter and then plug those voltage drives into an active DSP solution such as a Crown.

Another option would be to tune the enclosure lower and apply the kind of boost JBL applies in the M2. I started with the M2 file and then tweaked it for the 4365 components in the enclosure I built. It came out very well. I was quite pleased.

One doesn't necessarily have to do anything with the passive filter on the 045, just leave it in, or out, whichever one prefers. I didn't bother with the 045's at all but that is just me and it doesn't mean that I won't in the future. I have the passive filters and can hook them up whenever. Once I veneer the enclosures and get them where I want them located I'll do the whole room measurement / loudspeaker adjustment gig. I have no doubt that the final Crown file will be different than what it was when I took it all apart to veneer.

Feels good I am not alone in this thoughts, that I also have implemented. Some people went after me like nuts...

Do you want to publish your settings, and how they evolve? Would be very interesting to see. I can post my settings as well. Maybe in a new thread, though.

JuniorJBL

05-02-2015, 09:32 AM

I really like the looks of your 4365's Barry!! :)

And someday I will get to hear them and your other creations as well. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
Maybe the family needs to take a trip to LV for some camping and some RZR/ATV riding in the desert!! :D

4313B, I would gladly have your MDF monstrosities over anything I have ever made even if the wife disagrees!! ;)

4313B

05-02-2015, 09:42 AM

Feels good I am not alone in this thoughts, that I also have implemented. Some people went after me like nuts...

Do you want to publish your settings, and how they evolve? Would be very interesting to see. I can post my settings as well. Maybe in a new thread, though.Yes. I'll post both projects. Like I posted elsewhere though, I am probably going to stick with a tweaked DD65000 or DD67000 passive filter for one of the projects.

ivica

05-02-2015, 10:05 AM

Maybe... Maybe not.
My subjective opinion is that a person can't go wrong with any of them (1500FE series, 1500AL series, 2216Nd). I remember a time when there was only the 2235H.

Hi 4313B,

Am I right that 1500FE and 1500Al are 4-inch VC, while 2216Nd is 3-inch Voice Coil?

Regards
Ivica

4313B

05-02-2015, 10:07 AM

Yes.

65372

ivica

05-02-2015, 10:35 AM

Yes.

65372

Hi 4313B,

So, on 2216Nd, JBL has put large dust-cap (as on 4-inch VC models) in order to (I believe, mainly) reinforce the cone-membrane, and using dual VC construction have reduced 2-nd (even order harmonic distortions), but I would expect that model 1500Fe/AL or 2269 as 4-inch would be better for LF reproduction. May be even 2235/34 used in "compound box" would behave like mentioned newer models (??). May be the new-applied materials for cone are of important inflence too.

Regards
Ivica

1audiohack

05-08-2015, 06:45 PM

So my friend is hooking his new 4365's up right now. They are going up against his pristine pair of 4343s.

Barry.

Mr. Widget

05-08-2015, 07:10 PM

So my friend is hooking his new 4365's up right now. They are going up against his pristine pair of 4343s.I would rather look at a pristine pair of 4343s, but if you're going to listen to them, well... the tables turn. :D

Please let us know what his thoughts on the comparison are.

Widget

1audiohack

05-08-2015, 09:31 PM

Here is the short of it: there is a gorgeous pair of 4343's going up for sale in Wixom Michigan. I will start a new thread for them in market place.

Barry.

1audiohack

05-09-2015, 08:38 PM

He said: I love them!!!!!!!

He is a live sound guy and has a pro shop and sound company that sells all things Harman Pro. Frankly I was a little worried that they might not impress him. Apparently that worry was unfounded. Today we talked and he said that he was hearing in his familiar test music details that he hadn't heard in years and when you play something with horns they are right there in your face like they should be.

Being fair he also questions the comparison to a 30 year old set of speakers wondering if the 4343's were also truly brand new, would they fair better? We agree that they likely would, at least a little.

I can tell you that he bought them on the same assumptions that I bought mine being that they have the right stuff to get the job done, four inch large format HF system and a monster motor 15 and a big rock solid box.

His comments on the LF is that they sound right. Everything we do has the bottom jacked up and that's the way we seem to like it. These arent bottom heavy but you know they have the headroom to be EQ'd.

I am really interested to hear Widgets take on the M2's that his pal has. I have come to trust his impressions as we seem to like and hear things much the same way. I kind of hope they don't knock him out, I am running out of room! :)

The pics I have of his 4343's are on my PC at work so I wont get that stuff posted 'till Tuesday.

JuniorJBL

05-10-2015, 09:43 AM

Thanks for the update Barry!!

Good to know that people are receiving these well!! :)

johnhere

04-17-2016, 01:43 AM

Folks, have anyone changed the horns of 4365 to the horns of M2 (just change the horns, not dirvers), do they sound better?

JeffW

04-17-2016, 05:01 AM

Just a guess, but I don't think the M2 horn will fit in the 4365 cabinet.

1audiohack

04-17-2016, 06:33 AM

Jeff's right, there is not enough vertical real estate for the M2 waveguide.

I somehow doubt it would be magic anyway plus the 4365's are more expensive than the M2's.

We had the Las Vegas audio club over here yesterday, 13 guys and a couple of gals. There are super tweakers to super spenders in this group. I explained that I like stuff that sounds big and started with a couple of voice only tracks, a live take of James Taylor's Walk Down That Lonesome Road, followed by the Beatles Love mix of Because. Nearly immediately of the gals grabbed the guy who takes most of the pictures and directed his attention to the looks of sheer amazement on the faces of the group. It is really fun when you can just shock people with how good these sound.

Oh yeah, welcome to Lansing!

Barry.

1audiohack

12-18-2016, 04:25 PM

Last night I had the house to myself and spent several hours with the 4365's and my glowing opinion has not changed one bit.

This morning I re-read this thread which brought back many fond memories until I got to the perceived character assassination of the S4700's and all the bs that came with that.

I do on occasion think about making the 4365's multi amp with DSP mostly so I can employ dbx's Auto Warmth but I currently think I will save that for another project.

It is going to be very difficult for any speaker to unseat these from their prime spot, but, there is something in the pipeline. :bouncy:

I hope everyone is enjoying theirs as much as I enjoy mine. :)

All the best this holiday season!
Barry.