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bldozier
02-15-2015, 01:37 PM
Alright, they are comming toghter, I have a few questions as aint yet got a listen to how these sound, I can see there is a mid range void, bummer. So I though about adding a 4411 or 4311/12 to the tops of the 4333 lenght wise. Just plop em up there. I've read that series wiring or parallel conections lower and raise the equipment ratings, are these two options no advisable if not why,
Could I build the seperate speaker into the 4333 network some type of way, I may use the parent models in my LR as rear channels so, altering the cabinets is not an option
Thanks.

hjames
02-15-2015, 01:54 PM
If they are assembled properly, using the JBL crossover and complementary drivers,
there is no midrange void.
2231 woofer, 2312 horn with 2420/2425 mid-driver, and 2405 slot.

What have you changed in your pair?




Unit
For low-pass: 38cm cone type (2231A)
For mid ranges: Horn type (2308+2312+2420)
For high regions: Horn type (2405)


Play frequency band
35Hz - 20kHz


Cross over frequency
800Hz, 8500Hz


Directivity
60 degrees x 30 degrees (16kHz)


Impedance
8ohms


Output sound pressure level
93dB (new Japanese Industrial Standard)


Allowable input (RMS)
At the time of a network: 75W
800Hz or less: 75W
800Hz or more: 30W


Enclosure dimension
156L


Dimensions
Width 619x height 778x depth of 497mm


Weight
59kg







Alright, they are coming toghter, I have a few questions as aint yet got a listen to how these sound,
I can see there is a mid range void, bummer. So I though about adding a 4411 or 4311/12 to the tops of the 4333 lenght wise.
Just plop em up there. I've read that series wiring or parallel conections lower and raise the equipment ratings,
are these two options no advisable if not why,
Could I build the separate speaker into the 4333 network some type of way,
I may use the parent models in my LR as rear channels so, altering the cabinets is not an option
Thanks.

bldozier
02-20-2015, 05:46 PM
Other then their location from time to time nothing.
I have not heard them I cant corroborate any sound information, zilch.
But I would think the addition of a dedicated mid ranged frequency will only hop up its playing field.
the 4333 might sound great as is.
But with the 43xx stuff, im guess it will help.
Brian.

hjames
02-21-2015, 05:27 AM
I have heard 4333 systems and there is no midrange hole when using the original drivers.
Actually, the pair I heard at one time belonged to Clive Davis of Arista records - they worked well.
They were used as studio monitors -
I do not think 4333 Monitors need midrange help if they are in good condition

Are you using different drivers? [If so, which ones?]
Do you have the original crossovers?
Have they been refreshed with the blood of new capacitors?
New diaphrams?




Other then their location from time to time nothing.
I have not heard them I cant corroborate any sound information, zilch.
But I would think the addition of a dedicated mid ranged frequency will only hop up its playing field.
the 4333 might sound great as is.
But with the 43xx stuff, im guess it will help.
Brian.

The 4 way monitors are a different animal - if you want to upgrade your 4333 to 4343 specs,
you would need a different, more complex crossover and a 10 inch mid bass driver.
2121, 2122, or 2123 can be used with consideration applied to the crossover legs depending on which you use.

ivica
02-21-2015, 06:54 AM
Other then their location from time to time nothing.
I have not heard them I cant corroborate any sound information, zilch.
But I would think the addition of a dedicated mid ranged frequency will only hop up its playing field.
the 4333 might sound great as is.
But with the 43xx stuff, im guess it will help.
Brian.
Hi bldozier,

4333 is 3way system without midbass driver (as4343 has).
If you want to try some upgrade, may be 2441/45/46 with SL diaphragm, or Radian Aluminum, or Tryextent-Be diaphragm with 2311 horn can be used in order to improve lower frequency region.

regards
ivica

martin2395
02-21-2015, 07:51 AM
Exactly, with the bigger driver you could lower the xover frequency between the 2231 and the 2441/2450.

subwoof
02-22-2015, 02:57 PM
using the 2311 and larger driver is of no help.

The length of that combination is SHORTER than the 2312
so no advantage for LF extension is realized.

Please use the search function and read the
discussions on this.

Physics 101...

hjames
02-22-2015, 03:36 PM
Exactly, with the bigger driver you could lower the xover frequency between the 2231 and the 2441/2450.

Nope -= do like I did - get a Smith Horn and the larger driver - sweet sounds ensue!

bldozier
02-22-2015, 04:53 PM
Mike iam reading, just some of the more techincal refrences are not 2nd nature too me. I am viewing two opposed comments each correct be these are from a personal connotation.
Maye eithe of you can explain your suvesstions further.

Would phasing a midrange 2122 in its own enclosure, or le5-2 coupled into its 4310 series enclosure work.
what about the
123a-1 and le20-1, how would they be cut into the system? Im getting way ahead of my self...
But is this just simply combining the 3133a network with the n/a or 3111 network, is that possible. Could I combine separate networks with one another. Like putting pen to paper?

remusr
02-26-2015, 12:06 AM
Why are you building these 4333's?
Wait until you hear them before you modify or add.
To sound like a 4333 you need all the original drivers, horns and crossovers. There will be no midrange "bummer" if you do this.
Talk to someone experienced in audio speakers or read some basic HiFi books to understand how a speaker system works.
But basically the 4333's 2235 woofer handles the bass or lower frequencies up to 800 cps or Hz. The low crossover transitions frequencies above 800 to the 2425 midrange driver and its 2312 horn. The shorter 2307 and 2311 horn is not generally used below 1200 Hz. The horn must be able to couple the attached driver to the listening field efficiently at the lower 800 Hz end and that is why the longer 2312 horn is used. The high frequency crossover passes signals above 8500 Hz to the 2405 high frequency driver with integral horn.
Horns and drivers lose dispersion and sound clarity if used above their intended frequency range, and lack power handling and air movement capability below their intended frequency range, so that is why most systems use multiple drivers.
I texted this on my phone so hope it is understandable.

ivica
02-26-2015, 03:59 AM
......
The low crossover transitions frequencies above 800 to the 2425 midrange driver and its 2312 horn. The shorter 2307 and 2311 horn is not generally used below 1200 Hz. The horn must be able to couple the attached driver to the listening field efficiently at the lower 800 Hz end and that is why the longer 2312 horn is used. The high frequency crossover passes signals above 8500 Hz to the 2405 high frequency driver with integral horn.
Horns and drivers lose dispersion and sound clarity if used above their intended frequency range, and lack power handling and air movement capability below their intended frequency range, so that is why most systems use multiple drivers.
I texted this on my phone so hope it is understandable.

Hi remusr,

I have to agree with you from the theoretical point of view, but there are two things that have not be overridden:
- diaphragm size area of 244x driver is about 4~5 TIMES larger then 242x driver,
- the shape of the 3133A network response (applied into 4333 speakers) has -3dB around 1kHz, while on the 800Hz it is about -6dB, relative to the 3kHz region, so it would be difficult to say that the 244x (with 2311 & 2308) driver diaphragm of would be overloaded (under expectable home listening conditions) using 4333 network.

I have used 4333 (DIY) network with 2235 & 2441 (with Radian 1245 AL-diaphragm) with 2311 + 2308 (lenses) + 2405 and I have realize that the the mid-rage sound is more natural then with 2420+2312+2308 has been applied. Only that I have realized that 2441 (+ 2311 +2308) is more efficient then 2420 combo, so I have to apply some more attenuation ( with L-pad).

On the other side we can see that JBL have 4343 speaker that has mid-bass (2121) applied, so I believe that JBL people have decided that using mid-bass driver would be give more natural response of the speaker. Fortunately, our forum member Mr. GT , can give us some more details about that.

May be some can be find in the:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3849-JBL-2397-Curves&p=249312&viewfull=1#post249312

measurements has been done by the Forum member 4313B [ http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?15-4313B ]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?19857-476Be&p=217846&viewfull=1#post217846

I want to emphasis here that 2441 (AL) diaphragm is more sensitive to the low-frequency large signals then Titanium or Radian 1245 (aluminum membrane with MylarŪ surround)



regards
ivica

subwoof
02-26-2015, 10:19 AM
But you cannot change the laws of physics - shorter horns mean higher crossover points...period.

Does not matter the size / material of diaphram, type magnet, color of paint or whatever slope the designer of the **SYSTEM** used for the transitions...

short horn is a short horn.

Be it conical, exponential, hyperbolic, CD, radial, bi-radial, wood/glass/kangaroo dung/unobtanium, sold from radio shack ( RIP ) or a high end boutique with signed papers, hand-buffed edges and speaks japanese.

short horn is a short horn.

sub

hjames
02-26-2015, 10:45 AM
This whole thread is jumbled and very confusing - help us out here.

First - do you have an actual working pair of 4333 speakers at the moment?
(Or even one complete 4333 cabinet with factory drivers and factory crossover)
Or is this just a box you plan to put speakers into and make it something ...

Have you taken the time to listen to your speaker(s) yet?
Are all the drivers the original drivers as chosen at the JBL factory,
and if so, are they working correctly in the unmodified factory cabinets?

If not, what drivers are you working with.
Do you have the original factory crossover in use?
If not, what crossover are you running the systems with?

You keep talking about modifying them, changing drivers and such,
so I cannot believe you have a properly working pair of 4333.
Many of us here have heard properly working 4333 systems -
and they do not need a helper tweeter to be added.
There is no midrange void with the system as provided by JBL.
if your pair has that problem, it means something is off and needs to be REPAIRED,
no hack or redesign or added parts are needed.

Should I gather that English is a second language to you?
I only ask because some of your sentences read a bit oddly ...
If not, please don't take offense - I know when I get enthused over a project and type rapidly,
sometimes I leave words out here and there so some of my posts read a bit funny.




Mike iam reading, just some of the more techincal refrences are not 2nd nature too me.
I am viewing two opposed comments each correct be these are from a personal connotation.


Alright, they are coming together, I have a few questions as aint yet got a listen to how these sound, I can see there is a mid range void, bummer. So I though about adding a 4411 or 4311/12 to the tops of the 4333 length wise. Just plop em up there. I've read that series wiring or parallel conections lower and raise the equipment ratings, are these two options not advisable if not why,
Could I build the separate speaker into the 4333 network some type of way, I may use the parent models in my LR as rear channels so, altering the cabinets is not an option
Thanks.

speakerdave
02-26-2015, 12:25 PM
I'm looking for clarification. Has the OP acquired some midrange horns? What did the speakers consist of when getting a sense of how they sound?

ivica
02-26-2015, 01:14 PM
But you cannot change the laws of physics - shorter horns mean higher crossover points...period. Does not matter the size / material of diaphram, type magnet, color of paint or whatever slope the designer of the **SYSTEM** used for the transitions... short horn is a short horn. Be it conical, exponential, hyperbolic, CD, radial, bi-radial, wood/glass/kangaroo dung/unobtanium, sold from radio shack ( RIP ) or a high end boutique with signed papers, hand-buffed edges and speaks japanese. short horn is a short horn. sub

Hi subwoof,

Interesting explanations. Does that mean that any type of horn would have almost the same characteristics, and ONLY the length of the horn is important. If it that would be the truth the easier would be to put the pipe of the desired length. In such situation the if the length of the mentioned pipe (Lp) is equal Lp=Lambda/4, so Lambda=4*Lp, owing to the strong interference of the reflected wave cancellation would happen at the frequencies = (2k+1)*Co/Lambda ( k=0,1,2,.... ; Co speed of sound in the air, about 345m/s), and a kind of maximum would be at= 2k*Co/Lambda.

In the case of 2311 horn (including driver's internal horn of about 7cm) approximately Lambda/4= 17cm, so Lambda=4*0.17m = 0.68cm, that would correspond to about f=500Hz, second minimum would be expected around 1500Hz, etc. So using the driver&horn combo would not be good to be used under mentioned 500Hz frequency.

Using "HORN-RESP" calculator applying about 10W (12,6Veff) about 115dB/1m can be get, while diaphragm displacement would not be more then 0.2mm from the mentioned (500Hz) frequency (everything without applying high-pass filter, that has to be used, as mentioned on the 3133A network, -6dB is around 800Hz, the voltage on that frequency is reduced twice, relative to say 3kHz). As I have remembered (for JBL 244x drivers ) 0.5mm is a kind of diaphragm maximum displacement allowed.

All-in-all I think that 2311+2308 with appropriated driver such as JBL 2440/41/45/46/50 can be used, even in 4333 system.
Interestingly, using longer horn (while keeping the same mouth size) diaphragm displacement over 500Hz remains almost the same.

To be honest, I only know "Karlson coupler" type of 'horn' that is almost pipe-like (with the appropriated long slot), but it seems that such solution is not widely accepted.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/256176-what-real-inspiration-behind-karlson-coupler.html

Mr. John Karson patent US 3445852A has been an 'inspiration' for making Karlson-Couler, but not to forget Adolph Boehmen "SPRINKLER" patent US538861
[ http://www.google.com/patents/US538861 ] from the year 1895 ( May 7 ).

Some more theoretical explanation about Karslon coupler in acoustic can be find in:

http://www.cameng.com/pdf/the_k-coupler_a_new_acoustical-impedance_transformer.pdf


I am aware that all above is just an approximation, but I believe that may be useful.

Regards
Ivica

subwoof
02-26-2015, 07:52 PM
Ivica: Without delving into your response: I said (often) it makes NO difference what the *slope* is - if the distance from the driver exit to the eventual mouth is short, the crossover must be higher than a horn that is deeper.

Put a groove in it, cut a funky angled slit, poke holes with a rubidium laser in zero gravity, whatever....

Horns of the SAME depth that have DIFFERENT slopes/mouth area/curves/bends/girlfriends WILL require crossover slopes to match with the MANY variations of mid/woofer diameters and baffle placements.....and we are not even including the many driver variations.

But short is short. Long is long. If it didn't matter the long-throw 2366 was a waste of time right? it's 3ft+ deep for a reason. I use them each summer for shows and squirrels fear me.

You posted the infamous "Karson" horn which I believe has been debunked the same as his LF cabinet..but that's a DIFFERENT course of discussion....really...

The original poster has a single unloaded 4333 cabinet and wants to make/assemble a pair to use - but of course he has been swayed by the "4 way" crowd that extols the virtues of the additional low-mid cone. If he actually assembles a complete, component / crossover correct pair the midrange ( as explained quite well by heather ) will be JUST FINE and I have a pair in my study that get regularly abused by screaming vocalists of the "punk" genre.

The advantage by adding the 4th component is minimal BUT BUT is one of those " long-term engineer fatigue in the recording studio" issues that is applicable IN THAT CASE...hence the much higher cost and the MUCH more involved passive networks to keep that high SPL.

sub

Horn Fanatic
02-26-2015, 10:42 PM
Hi subwoof,

Interesting explanations. Does that mean that any type of horn would have almost the same characteristics, and ONLY the length of the horn is important. If it that would be the truth the easier would be to put the pipe of the desired length. In such situation the if the length of the mentioned pipe (Lp) is equal Lp=Lambda/4, so Lambda=4*Lp, owing to the strong interference of the reflected wave cancellation would happen at the frequencies = (2k+1)*Co/Lambda ( k=0,1,2,.... ; Co speed of sound in the air, about 345m/s), and a kind of maximum would be at= 2k*Co/Lambda.

In the case of 2311 horn (including driver's internal horn of about 7cm) approximately Lambda/4= 17cm, so Lambda=4*0.17m = 0.68cm, that would correspond to about f=500Hz, second minimum would be expected around 1500Hz, etc. So using the driver&horn combo would not be good to be used under mentioned 500Hz frequency.

Using "HORN-RESP" calculator applying about 10W (12,6Veff) about 115dB/1m can be get, while diaphragm displacement would not be more then 0.2mm from the mentioned (500Hz) frequency (everything without applying high-pass filter, that has to be used, as mentioned on the 3133A network, -6dB is around 800Hz, the voltage on that frequency is reduced twice, relative to say 3kHz). As I have remembered (for JBL 244x drivers ) 0.5mm is a kind of diaphragm maximum displacement allowed.

All-in-all I think that 2311+2308 with appropriated driver such as JBL 2440/41/45/46/50 can be used, even in 4333 system.
Interestingly, using longer horn (while keeping the same mouth size) diaphragm displacement over 500Hz remains almost the same.

To be honest, I only know "Karlson coupler" type of 'horn' that is almost pipe-like (with the appropriated long slot), but it seems that such solution is not widely accepted.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/256176-what-real-inspiration-behind-karlson-coupler.html

Mr. John Karson patent US 3445852A has been an 'inspiration' for making Karlson-Couler, but not to forget Adolph Boehmen "SPRINKLER" patent US538861
[ http://www.google.com/patents/US538861 ] from the year 1895 ( May 7 ).

Some more theoretical explanation about Karslon coupler in acoustic can be find in:

http://www.cameng.com/pdf/the_k-coupler_a_new_acoustical-impedance_transformer.pdf


I am aware that all above is just an approximation, but I believe that may be useful.

Regards
Ivica

I am touched that you posted my comment from the DiY forum about the Karlson sprinkler. Thank you. And thank you for posting the Martin Poppe paper for all here to see. I came across it about 25 years ago, and have created a spread sheet using his formula which allows me a great deal of design flexibility. The K-Coupler is indeed an exponential flare.

ivica
02-27-2015, 03:04 AM
I am touched that you posted my comment from the DiY forum about the Karlson sprinkler. Thank you. And thank you for posting the Martin Poppe paper for all here to see. I came across it about 25 years ago, and have created a spread sheet using his formula which allows me a great deal of design flexibility. The K-Coupler is indeed an exponential flare.

Hi Horn Fanatic,

Interestingly that Mr.Karlson initially would not suggest exponential flare in his antenna patent presentation.
Unfortunately, I can not find any more Martin Poppe papers about K-coupler even he had said that more paper would come.

Just for the other forum members can get more about technical data about Karlson-Coupler
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/12/121068.html

Regards
Ivica

Odd
02-27-2015, 03:48 AM
Ivica: Without delving into your response: I said (often) it makes NO difference what the *slope* is - if the distance from the driver exit to the eventual mouth is short, the crossover must be higher than a horn that is deeper.

Put a groove in it, cut a funky angled slit, poke holes with a rubidium laser in zero gravity, whatever....

Horns of the SAME depth that have DIFFERENT slopes/mouth area/curves/bends/girlfriends WILL require crossover slopes to match with the MANY variations of mid/woofer diameters and baffle placements.....and we are not even including the many driver variations.

But short is short. Long is long. If it didn't matter the long-throw 2366 was a waste of time right? it's 3ft+ deep for a reason. I use them each summer for shows and squirrels fear me.

You posted the infamous "Karson" horn which I believe has been debunked the same as his LF cabinet..but that's a DIFFERENT course of discussion....really...

The original poster has a single unloaded 4333 cabinet and wants to make/assemble a pair to use - but of course he has been swayed by the "4 way" crowd that extols the virtues of the additional low-mid cone. If he actually assembles a complete, component / crossover correct pair the midrange ( as explained quite well by heather ) will be JUST FINE and I have a pair in my study that get regularly abused by screaming vocalists of the "punk" genre.

The advantage by adding the 4th component is minimal BUT BUT is one of those " long-term engineer fatigue in the recording studio" issues that is applicable IN THAT CASE...hence the much higher cost and the MUCH more involved passive networks to keep that high SPL.

sub

+1

hjames
02-27-2015, 04:58 AM
There is no Karlson horn in a proper JBL 4333.
I suggest you probably ought to keep the discussion focused on relevant support,
rather than take the OP on some wild and esoteric DIY technical discussions -
at least if you want to call it a 4333 rather than just "A Build in a Once-JBL Cabinet".

ivica
02-27-2015, 05:16 AM
There is no Karlson horn in a proper JBL 4333.
I suggest you probably ought to keep the discussion focused on relevant support,
rather than take the OP on some wild and esoteric DIY technical discussions -
at least if you want to call it a 4333 rather than just "A Build in a Once-JBL Cabinet".


Hi hjames,

I am sorry if my several sentences 'diverge' from JBL 4333, but may be for some members that would be informative, may some of them for the first time have herded
about Karlson-Coupler, Most of my words are in close connection with my experience with the speakers such as JBL 4333.

Ivica

hjames
02-27-2015, 05:28 AM
Hi hjames,

I am sorry if my several sentences 'diverge' from JBL 4333, but may be for some members that would be informative, may some of them for the first time have herded
about Karlson-Coupler, Most of my words are in close connection with my experience with the speakers such as JBL 4333.

Ivica

As polite as I can possibly be ...
Sure - its all geewhiz cool tech, but the Original Poster is trying to figure what to do with his single
old-style 4333 cabinet (with the overhangs top & bottom), and since he has asked for someone to
help with basics like creating a new baffle for him, I suspect esoteric cabinet mods/redesigns are
not a helpful direction for him to head down.

Consider that if the new guy is confused enough to want to make a 3 way design into a 4 way due
to an uninformed perceived midrange hole, the whole Karlson divergence doesn't gain him anything
but confusion, does it?

Perhaps you should start a new thread for cool tech like the Karlson cabinets and Horns?
I'll grant that it does seem like interesting stuff to read about, just maybe not in this thread.

Thank God Zilch and Bo and Subwoof stayed on topic when I asked for help while I was just starting
down the road with my 4320/L200B speaker build/redesigns. I went through sensible, repeatable changes
and learned what kind of sound I liked and where I wanted to go next with my gear.

There were only minimal distractions about Dodge and Mercedes trucks, and irrelevant technology.
:banana:

mech986
03-02-2015, 01:13 AM
Echoing hjames here - I don't know how or where you "see" or hear a midrange void. Most people complain that the 4333/L300 has abundant midbass and midrange, gobs of it, due to the high efficiency of the LE85/2420 driver and LE92/H92 horn - a must is to use the L92/2308 slant acoustic lenses to get the correct sound dispersion.

Have you truly heard a 4333 or L300 in proper running condition, appropriately internally wired to the correct crossovers and correct polarity to amps and each other? There will NOT be a midrange hole unless there is damage to the compression driver diaphragm, a fault in the crossover, or a wiring problem. There are some old polarity convention problems and anyone not familiar with JBL polarity issues in these older monitors might miswire the crossover and drivers. Also, since these drivers all use spring connectors instead of polarity matched connectors, its also possible to have drivers' polarity mismatched from one speaker channel to the other.

If there is a polarity mismatch from side to side, or side driver to side driver, you can get a suckout for that driver, and it will sound really phase-y and have no good center mono image. Output will be down as well as there is cancellation of the sound intensity. So it is possible to have midrange (and other problems) do to a poorly wired or maintained system.

Again, properly working, and properly wired and hooked up, the 4333 does not suffer from any midrange "void" issues. You would be well served to check the resources which tell you otherwise.

grumpy
03-02-2015, 10:42 AM
might help for the OP to define what they mean by midrange...
if what is really meant is a mid-bass clarity issue (which one -might-
describe as a hole without having more to go on), it makes at least
a little more sense.:dont-know: