UREI Speaker discussions

[hjames]

Just won a pair of UREI 809A speakers with bad surrounds for a good price.
Its a local sale, so I'll pick them up Monday after work. No grills.

The 809A system has a 12 inch coax assembly - its essentially a 2214 woofer
with a 2416H compression driver mated to it. I've got the spec sheet and will look into
updating the crossovers with some fresh caps -

Mike says the 12 inch in 809 *IS* the 2214 kit with a flex screen instead of a dustcap.
the same magnet/frame/driver is used in the 2152H but with a midrange type cone.

I've replaced a number of 2214 surrounds in the last few years, so I sent an
email to Rick Cobb to chase down a surround kit ...

I do have a spare pair of 2214 woofers - I may try to set them up as "Helper woofers"
if the coaxial drivers don't play deep enough.

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/UREI%20Time%20Align%20Series/809A-L,R.pdf


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[tinpan]

Very cool. What a steal. I would be very surprised if you have to use help woofers. The pair I heard sounded great full range.

BTW, what tubes are in your Jolida? EL 84's

Thanks

Tinpan

[hjames]

Thanks! of course, these are just the "little" 12 inch UREI Coaxials -
the pair I heard before had the larger 15 inch coaxials ...

I'm using a quad of the regular 6550EH (ElectroHarmonix) which gives me a rated output of 60w/ch
Its been plenty with the JBL L200 customs and the Von Schweikert VR-4s.
I "believe" the VR-4s are around 93db efficiency - and that's what these UREIs are listed as ...



Very cool. What a steal. I would be very surprised if you have to use help woofers. The pair I heard sounded great full range.

BTW, what tubes are in your Jolida? EL 84's

Thanks

Tinpan

[hjames]

I just got home with them. It was an ebay auction that was a local sale,
so I didn't really know the condition, other than pictures that showed me the surrounds are shot.

I played a couple tunes at low volume and it sounds like all drivers are working and -
they play surprisingly well. Emma was really impressed at the sound.
I've written Rick Cobb for info and will order surround kits in the next couple days.

Obviously, I'll need to get them up off the ground for real use - or stand them on end, spin the drivers 90 degrees
(to turn the horns 90 degrees), and tip them back a bit.
Once the surrounds are replaced I can experiment further

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[rusty jefferson]

Welcome to the UREI side of the tracks!

I like how you "get the itch", and then just scratch it!

[hjames]

Welcome to the UREI side of the tracks!

I like how you "get the itch", and then just scratch it!

Thank you for the first itch!

I had no idea until I heard a pair of UREI speakers what those kind of monitors could do ...
I'm just starting down the path - but I'm intrigued and impressed!

[opimax]

Rusty,

I was very impressed with your system. I think I would love a coax that wasn't a horn though ... Your system was one the better ones I have heard, period, very dynamic, smooth and my favorite part still very flat response to my ears.:applaud::applaud:

Mark

[hjames]

Got the second part of the project today - the drivers and crossovers for a pair of UREI 809s I got from a studio in WV.
The woofers looked to be similar so I swapped the Horn drivers to put them on the woofers I just got with good surrounds
and tossed them into the cabinets in vertical mode. Then played some tracks ...
Again, Cathedral from CSN, some tracks from AJA, some old Louis Armstrong tracks ...
then a few tracks here and there from other artists ... very very nice. Impressive.

I ordered enough surrounds from Rick Cobb so I can redo all 4 woofers (the "good" ones look like they may need it shortly, too).
I'll put the 2214s back in the blonde cabinets and haul them upstairs as "stands" for now -
and buy chokes to rig a crossover to try them as "helper woofers" later.

... more fun is coming!



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[rusty jefferson]

Rusty,

I was very impressed with your system. I think I would love a coax that wasn't a horn though ... Your system was one the better ones I have heard, period, very dynamic, smooth and my favorite part still very flat response to my ears.:applaud::applaud:

Mark

Hey Mark,

Thanks for the kind words about the system. I appreciate it very much.

Jim


Got the second part of the project today - the drivers and crossovers for a pair of UREI 809s I got from a studio in WV. ......
.....Seems the box of drivers and crossovers I got today have smaller 2412H-1 Horn drivers,
compared to the 2416H-1 drivers that came in the complete system I got yesterday.
I wrote the seller & explained that we have something to sort out - more fun later!


I'm not familiar with the 803 coax variants. Did a model come with the 2412, or......?

[hjames]

Ordered a pair of 12 mh chokes from madisound today - Subwoof says thats what I need to set up my 2214 woofers as "Helper Woofers" for the 809A systems.
I also ordered a yard of their black grill cloth - I'd rather do JBL monitor blue -
but ... seems there isn't any any more - those days are gone.

Anyway, brought the blonde cabinets upstairs and set the UREIs on top.
Playing some vintage Louis Armstrong - St. James Infirmary - sounds Fantastic!

Once I get the order I'll pull the baffleboards and cover them with the black grill cloth,
mount the 2214s in the cabinets, install a choke in series with each 2214,
and tie the lower cabinets in parallel to the upper ones ...
subwoof says that'll raise the woofer volume 3db ...

Maybe have more fun by next weekend!

(and maybe sell off those darned L200 systems next!!)

64551

[tinpan]

:banghead::banghead::banghead: Man, I didn't with the $500 million dollar Powerball again.

Oh well...

I really dig your project now that I see where you are going with it. I love those blond cabinets, what are they and where did you find them. I'd like to find something similar for a pair of 15 inch bass bins.

[hjames]

:banghead::banghead::banghead: Man, I didn't with the $500 million dollar Powerball again.

Oh well...

I really dig your project now that I see where you are going with it. I love those blond cabinets,
what are they and where did you find them. I'd like to find something similar for a pair of 15 inch bass bins.

I got them from one of the Ak Listening parties 2 years back - the PO in NJ bought them with some Stevens Trusonic coaxial drivers -
he pulled and sold those, and couldn't bring himself to trash the boxes, so I got them pretty cheap.
I briefly tested them with 12 inch 2214 drivers I had and they mounted up fine, tried them as subs
with a pair of M&K satellite speakers on top, but eventually stashed them into basement storage until now.

They are a nice match for the blonde wood chairs and sofa I got from my grandmother
(and played on when i was a kid many years ago ...)

[hjames]

Next stage. Based on comments from Subwoof on how to integrate a pair of 2214s as Helper Woofers
similar to what the UREI 813C has, I got a pair of 12mH chokes from Madisound this week.
I got some really nice fabric from "G-Street Fabrics" this morning - not quite JBL Monitor blue - but darned close!
Its a bit thicker than the scrap of Zilch-cloth I have - then again, the fabric today was a closeout at $2.97 yd!!

Anyway, popped the baffle boards, glued the cloth to it, mounted the 2214 drivers to each one, jammed some polyfill
into the oversize ports, then screwed a choke down near the 5 way cups in installed in the bottom.
Rigged a dual banana pomona cable between the bass cab and the UREI 809A terminal cups,
and turned on the Jolida 502 tube amp. Nice, but not as much bass as I thought.
On a hunch, I reversed the polarity to the bass cab and thats it!

See - the JBL woofers that are part of the UREI coaxial drivers are connected backwards from their original marked polarity.
I thought if I flipped apparent polarity to the "helper woofers", they might then match the actual polarity - and they seem to.

Now I have to go downstairs and try some tracks!

Thanks for the tips Mike!

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[hjames]

The Jolida 502 BRC uses quad of the regular 6550EH (ElectroHarmonix) and has a rated output of 60w/ch Its been plenty with the JBL L200 customs and the Von Schweikert VR-4s. I "believe" the VR-4s are around 93db efficiency - and that's what these UREIs are listed as ...

I'm finding the UREIs with the helper woofers play much louder than the VR-4s.
Mike said adding the helper woofer would be a 3db improvement!

Anecdotally, I am playing some new agey piano stuff this morning (an old CD - David Lanz - Christofori's Dream)
and I'm listening at a comfortable level with the volume pot just below the 9 o'clock position.
My usual amp setting with the JBLs and VR-4s was often 11 or 12 o'clock position.

Pretty sure Rusty was using a superb SET amp with his 813Cs.
It was even pleasant with Daft Punk Discovery and Boz's Dig album yesterday!

Tho I haven't ventured into Classical music yet ... maybe I'll try Ode to Joy when I get home later ...

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[hjames]

Been a long weekend but since its too cold to do much outside, I did get some listening time in over the last couple days.

Dug out my Furtwangler SACD of Beethoven's 9th (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001A72XOI/) looks like the price has gone up from the $20 I paid in 2011!
Anyway, played nearly the whole thing - magnificent!
Dropped through all kinds of other materials, from Yes, through Tom Waits, Incredible String machine, Beatles stereo remasters -
Joni Mitchell, Gary Burton - generally all were stunning - tho in a couple places the studio edits are pretty apparent - and that is flat amazing!

So far, the 809 with external helper woofers are proving to be small and light enough to move easily and yet very listenable!
I think these will be my main keepers - Unless I can find a pair of 811s to upgrade to!



Tho I haven't ventured into Classical music yet ... maybe I'll try Ode to Joy when I get home later ...

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[BMWCCA]

I think these will be my main keepers - Unless I can find a pair of 811s to upgrade to!

And the half-life of a Heather James main-keeper speaker system is currently . . . ?

;)



Can't wait to hear them.

[hjames]

And the half-life of a Heather James main-keeper speaker system is currently . . . ?

;)

Can't wait to hear them.

Lets see - the last set of Keeper speakers are the 4320 Monitors I got in 2007 that
evolved into the L200+ 3ways speakers that are currently behind the UREIs ...

And I'm thinking the UREIs will replace them!

[rusty jefferson]

So far, the 809 with external helper woofers are proving to be small and light enough to move easily and yet very listenable!

Glad to hear your experiment is working out. I'm looking forward to hearing them. Crossover rework the next step? It would be fun to do a 1 box cabinet, also.

I'll bring over a couple small tube amps to play with.

[tinpan]

Looking good, I have a pair of 12" woofers in a bass bin and the question was, would a pair of 12's sound as good or better than a single 15?

"And I'm thinking the UREIs will replace them!"
Well, you room is looking crowded, perhaps the Urei's need a little room to breathe, lol.

I like 2 way systems

[BMWCCA]

I like 2 way systems
Me, too. But—and not to take away from the project—is a 12-inch with coaxial tweeter and a 12-inch sub really a two-way anymore? :dont-know:

[hjames]

Me, too. But—and not to take away from the project—
is a 12-inch with coaxial tweeter and a 12-inch sub really a two-way anymore? :dont-know:

Well, all thats on the 2214H "helper woofer" leg is a 12mH choke -
I suspect its more a low pass function - just roll off the highs of that woofer.
So overall, much simpler that the usual 3 way or 4 way monitor Xovers
I think in JBL terms that makes it a 2 1/2 way!

I'm guessing its like a 12 inch version of the 4435, right?

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/studio%20monitor%20series/4435lr.pdf

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/4430-35.htm

[BMWCCA]

I'm guessing its like a 12 inch version of the 4435, right?
Which sounds like a great idea! Your next project?

[Mr. Widget]

Your next project?I think a dual 12" Everest DD33000 may be it. :bouncy:


Widget

[hjames]

I think a dual 12" Everest DD33000 may be it. :bouncy:


Widget

Brilliant!!
Thanks.

[4343]

Always did like those Urei's. Had 811's for a while, but sold them with the studio.

On a related note, a local SF area studio is selling 2 pairs of 813B's, "make reasonable offer".

Not affiliated in any way, of course, I could pick them up if someone wants them...

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/msg/4890126846.html

[hjames]

Always did like those Urei's. Had 811's for a while, but sold them with the studio.

On a related note, a local SF area studio is selling 2 pairs of 813B's, "make reasonable offer".

Not affiliated in any way, of course, I could pick them up if someone wants them...

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/msg/4890126846.html


Wow - THE 813Bs are Tempting - Just one pair required (!!)
But they are quite heavy - the cross-country transport charges would be hefty!
Rusty's 813Cs sound fantastic - but he has the all JBL version, not the earlier ALTEC driver models!

[subwoof]

813DS
(made up model)

Since all the parts are just sitting in the shop / storage maybe I'll
assemble and test to see how they sound this weekend when it
GASP goes above freezing...and hire a plow to open it up.

Take the 4508A dual 15 theater cabinet,
Put the 801C 15" coaxial in the top location,
The 136HS in the bottom location
( 15" sub from the synthesis line )

Then make some sort of internal divider around the coax so
the 136 can use as much Vb as possible and not modulate the thin paper E145
...thinking a cut-down 14" Sonotube or something similar...?

It looks like the Array series (pro) stereo 2 way crossover ( ASC24 ) with
it's 1000hz , 24db slopes with CD comp would be a close fit for now.

A 5235 with 80db cards for the subs and a stack of (2) 6290's and a 6230
along with a pair of 5549A cut-only EQ's

Hmmm....

[hjames]

Someone had a pair of grills on ebay 2 weeks back - though I did build similar grills for the 4320 boxes back when,
since I don't have a workshop, I usually set the table saw up outdoors to do such work, and its snowy and cold now
- so I broke down and just bought them.

They arrived from West Hollywood in the midst of a snow-squall yesterday.
They came with 2 sheets of very sticky 1 inch Velcros squares (8 ea).
Like the velcro on JBL grills and lenses, the glue usually separates from
the surface before the velcro releases. But they help the speakers look nice!

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[hjames]

The blue foam between the cabinets was an UGLY temporary measure to keep from scratching
the tops of the lower blonde cabinets while I tried all these different things out.
So yesterday I called the local glass shop and had them cut me a pair of 16 x 16.5 inch
sheets of 0.250 inch bronze glass to protect them long term.
They were ready at the end of the day $55 plus tax - and they look nice!

Oh, one other thing - I found out the stock UREI crossovers are on cards attached to the front panel,
they slide on 2 pair of groves cut into the wood 90 degrees apart,
so they can be rotated to match the front panel with the cabinet orientation!

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[spkrman57]

Anyway, brought the blonde cabinets upstairs and set the UREIs on top.

Once I get the order I'll pull the baffleboards and cover them with the black grill cloth,
mount the 2214s in the cabinets, install a choke in series with each 2214,
and tie the lower cabinets in parallel to the upper ones ...
subwoof says that'll raise the woofer volume 3db ...

64551

I have a pair of the same cabs. I put EV SP12's in them and it was decent enough. I think I want to install 2206's in mine and see how it does.

I noticed you stuffed the port, why not seal it all together? Just curious...

Regards, Ron

[hjames]

I have a pair of the same cabs. I put EV SP12's in them and it was decent enough.
I think I want to install 2206's in mine and see how it does.

I noticed you stuffed the port, why not seal it all together? Just curious...

Regards, Ron

Actually, it was just a trial to see how that worked. I've had 2 pairs of L100T speakers and they worked great with a smallish port.
I am not sure the cabinets are robust enough to run sealed - and I believe I'd need more power to run sealed box mode.
As it is, with a 60w/ch tube amp running the UREIs and them, they do add a nice supplement to the UREI's bass ....
I like having 2 2214s per channel.
I don't play them very loud - and they sound great playing through a number of older Brubeck albums today.

[spkrman57]

Actually, it was just a trial to see how that worked. I've had 2 pairs of L100T speakers and they worked great with a smallish port.
I am not sure the cabinets are robust enough to run sealed - and I believe I'd need more power to run sealed box mode.
As it is, with a 60w/ch tube amp running the UREIs and them, they do add a nice supplement to the UREI's bass ....
I like having 2 2214s per channel.
I don't play them very loud - and they sound great playing through a number of older Brubeck albums today.

cabs worked okay with high efficiency drivers, but low freq drivers would push the cabs somewhat...

They are neat cabs though...!

Regards, Ron

[tinpan]

Had a chance to ga and listen to these this weekend and boy are they nice. It's hard to believe the big sound that comes from them.

[hjames]

Because ANY discussion of the UREI speakers needs a link back to this project - I'd LOVE to hear them!

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?12303-Urei-Theater

[hjames]

They are home ... It was 4 hours each way to Morgantown, WV and back ...
but they are hooked up right now without using the Helper woofers in the pedestal
and the 811Cs are playing very nice. More bass that the 809As alone have ...
and the same kind of sparkling presence ...

Yes, I will have to rotate the left horn a few degrees to get it level, but its quite close for now.

Very impressive - now to play some music, settle into a hot tub and unwind from all that Road!

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[audiomagnate]

Impressive! My guess is that you're not into HT or multi-channel audio, but you have the makings of a killer 4.0 system there. Nice score.

[hjames]

Impressive! My guess is that you're not into HT or multi-channel audio,
but you have the makings of a killer 4.0 system there. Nice score.

The upstairs room is configured for 2 channel audio.

But the downstairs room IS set for HT/surround music - and is 7.1 sound capable, with Integra Preamp/processor, B&K poweramps,
Vandersteens 3A mains and 2CE surrounds, DCM TF-600 rear surrounds, a Vandy center and a 4641 JBL Pro 18 inch sub.

Back to the UREI gear - in addition to the pair of 809As and pair of 811Cs, I have a complete extra pair of 12 inch 809 spare drivers with horns and 2416H screw-on tweeters, (plus a 3rd one from you), without the 809A cabinets, and 2 homebrew crossovers.
So - those 3 pairs would be enough to do a HT room - and since the UREI are quite efficient, no need for high power amps!

Tho I'll probably try them downstairs at some point, that wasn't my vision, like it was for UREI_Collector's system.

But it sure is tempting!

[tinpan]

I've heard a rolling stone gathers no moss...

Those look very nice and I can only imagine what they sound like.

I gotta run, so more later, but the L200's are working out very nice...stunningly nice.

[hjames]

I've heard a rolling stone gathers no moss...

Those look very nice and I can only imagine what they sound like.

I gotta run, so more later, but the L200's are working out very nice...stunningly nice.

I am SO glad you are enjoying them!
We had a lot of listening time with them.

[hjames]

So I've now spent a week listening to the UREI 811C 15 inch (single) coaxial speakers.
Mids are quite nice, and imaging is still amazing - like the 809s, I can hear every instrument in a mix!
Bass is there but they don't go as low in Freq as the 809As do, and they seem to roll a bit off the top as well,
so I figure its probably time for some updates (all part of the plan ...).

I know the 811Cs were meant to be soffit mounted to give the best bass response -
so I know I'm losing some low-end from the pedestal use.
I did connect the blonde cabinets with the 2214 helper woofers, and that improved the bottom end -
maybe I'll need to use some subs or helper woofers underneath (say 15 or 18 inch)?

Also, the caps have probably aged since the late 80s - I suspect replacing the caps would do some good.
Another consideration is that I have no idea what diaphrams are in the tweeters?
Originals? Some cheap replacement? Have not looked so that's an unknown!

I DO know the cabinets are heavy! urk!
So over the weekend I got Emma to help me lift them off the pedestal and put them where I could get to the crossovers.
4 philips screws hold the crossover faceplates on - so I removed them - pulled the crossover as far forward as I can and ...
I can't get it fully out! Its a large circuit card (see picture) and apparently its limited by the internal wiring.
So - I'll have to get them out of the stack, lay them on their back, pull the 15 inch coax driver assembly,
and then see what I can see for a full view of the crossover & compare it to the schematic

The second picture shows the stack of UREI 811Cs, the back of the Von Schweikert VR-4s, and the back of the UREI 809As on the 2214 speaker pedestals.

Anyway, here's what I can see of the 811C crossover so far!

[hjames]

Hauled the 809As and the Helper cabs downstairs and hooked them up in front of the
Vandersteen 3As to the B&K St202plus amp as the Front mains.

Watched some TV to see how they carried dialog, then played one of the "attack scenes"
from "Master and Commander on The Far Side" and that sounded superb ..
Flipped to Palladia and wound up watching a documentary about prog band Kansas
and their sound was superb as well! Excellent!

Yep - Gonna pull the Vandies 3As out and put the UREI 809s in their place for good downstairs!
Time to sell those Vandersteens!

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[hjames]

Had some time tonight. Took the points off the Vandersteen 3As and dragged them out of the way,
then put the UREIs and the pedestals against the wall in their place. Sounds real nice!
Now I'll have to find more UREIs for the side surrounds and make a matched UREI center!

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[audiomagnate]

I like that setup. The problem with centers and regular TV's (unlike projector/screen setups where you can stick it behind the screen) is that it's so hard to get a full sized center in the right spot. I just go 4.0 (4.3 really) and sit in the sweet spot. Guests/teenage children don't really seem to care, even if they're not in the sweet spot. Just my two cents.

[tinpan]

I just go 4.0 (4.3 really) and sit in the sweet spot
That is a very interesting comment/observation. I have a full size center channel but it takes up soooo much real estate. I also listen to a lot of 2 channel stereo on my HT system as well. I may have to experiment with this as well. It would be nice gain back that real estate

[hjames]

The smart thing for me would be to put the Salamander/rack elsewhere and put the center in the center, just under the TV.
I will say with TV and movies, having a center in the center adds a lot to the dialog and to realistic audio.

For 2 channel audio I go upstairs to the 2 channel system - it works best that way.

A compromised system means something is less than ideal.

This is the 3rd iteration of a really ideal Home theater system.
I tried with JBL biamp 4341s and L100T3s sides and L20T rears - not really good.

I had a 7.1 system consisting of DCM Timeframe spekers, plus a JBL sub. Great.
Then a 7.1 system of 5 Vandersteen speakers (w/DCM TF600 rears), plus a JBL sub. Great.
Now I am converting the whole thing to UREI monitors - and from the sound of just the mains now (with JBL sub) - so far, its very nice.

There is something about a matched tonality that really works ...

[audiomagnate]

But that's just it, it will be BELOW the screen, and not at the same height as the mains, or where the image is on the screen, and that just bothers me for some reason. A properly setup 4.x system can put that dialog smack dab where it's supposed to be (for one person anyway). Plus I move my listening/viewing position pretty close to my tiny 54 inch screen (the experts recommend around a 6 foot viewing distance for 1080p on a 54 inch) to watch Blu-rays, so I'd almost be kicking a third L200. I've tired scaled down centers, but they sounded awful; that's where most of the sound comes from in a 5.x system after all so you don't want a weak center.

[hjames]

But that's just it, it will be BELOW the screen, and not at the same height as the mains, or where the image is on the screen, and that just bothers me for some reason. A properly setup 4.x system can put that dialog smack dab where it's supposed to be (for one person anyway). Plus I move my listening/viewing position pretty close to my tiny 54 inch screen (the experts recommend around a 6 foot viewing distance for 1080p on a 54 inch) to watch Blu-rays, so I'd almost be kicking a third L200. I've tired scaled down centers, but they sounded awful; that's where most of the sound comes from in a 5.x system after all so you don't want a weak center.


When I had a cheaper center, it was the lack of matching tonality that bothered me, and the inability to hear the dialog clearly bothered me.
The location - close to but not physically in the center of the screen - did NOT bother me as much as the poor sound did.

The JBL LCD2 I ran with the 4341s was better than most, but it didn't match the mains.
The DCM Timepiece was a better match to the TF1000s I had as mains - dialog & tone was good, but it didn't match the bass response
The Vandersteen VCC-1 is a good match to the Vandy 2CEs - (a better match to the Vandy 1 series), good but not quite a match to the 3As, basswise.

But if I build a center with nearly the same physical size as the UREI 809As, and use a UREI 809A driver
and a matched crossover, it should be damned close in tone and sound.
If I lift the TV up another 8-12 inches, location will be close to inline with the mains ... an awfully good compromise.
I'll have to take a picture when I get to that point - but a GOOD center makes a difference to TV and movies.

I also like that with a real, matched center, listening positions is not a tiny sweet spot.
Emma and I can cuddle on the sofa and move around a bit and still get all the sound and all the dialog.
And we still jump when all the bullets and shells shred the deck around us in "Master and Commander."

If I went to a projector and put the center behind the screen, it would probably be better, soundwise -
but I like the visual clarity of the 70 inch AQUOS TV over most projectors I have seen in non-darkened rooms.
Frankly, with our garden and flowers and the beauty outside - I kinda like the big windows.

Plus there is a whole budget issue with selling this home to move somewhere
with a better home theater space - I kinda like it here - this will do for us.
Its a really good compromise for us.

:banana:

With the grills off, you can see the height of the drivers - even mocked up like this,
so a sideways 809A will be in line with the 2 mains ...
(you can also see I need to rotate the left driver very slightly to get the horn aligned)

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[hjames]

It was a nice day, finally, so I set up a work area on the back porch, grabbed the M.E.K,
and cleaned the bad surrounds off the 2 loose 12 inch 809A driver (basically JBL 2214 woofers).
I'd bought the Rick Cobb kit last month, so I installed new surrounds, set up the CD and test tones,
and let them run for a bit in the basement!

They sit better on the shelf with the 2416H tweeter driver not screwed into place.

(I also did some yard work mucking out the pond, but thats not the sexy - so no pix of that task!)

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[hjames]

Just got back from a trip to Short Pump area outside Richmond, VA.
I'd seen a pair of UREI 809 speakers (good surrounds, with original grills) back in Jan and had gone back and forth with the seller (Father-in-law's gear and we have no place for it in the new house) Original deal was UREI 809A speakers plus Carver Magnetic field power amp, model PM175. Not willing to separate.

I got them to separate the speakers, then got the price down, but I wasn't going to get in that area for 3 weekend ('bout a 2 hr drive each way for us). So we agreed on a date, and I waited ... vewy qwietwy ... lest the deal get away!

Anyway, left fairfax at 8AM, tested and grabbed the speakers, then made an offer on the Carver after all,
made a nice cash deal for all of it ... and came home with a nice load in the back of the CRV ...

So, current tally ... 2 pair of 809s in clean cabs with grills, another pair of clean 12" coaxial drivers w/out cabinets, plus a pair of 811Cs in cabinet that need recapping. That should be enough for a kick-butt home theater upgrade ...

Oh, since we got to Richmond early, we went into the nursery and got some great hanging baskets and herbs for a superb price!

65220

[macaroonie]

My goodness Heather you have taken a big bite at that apple. What do you reckon is the draw with these. You've had plenty of speakers through you emporium so you will have a keen ear .
I have an idea but am keen to hear if you are experiencing what I think you are.

Good score btw. M

[BMWCCA]

Wow!
Party at Heather and Emma's house!

Remember I have a Carver PM-1.5 I paid a pittance for recently that sounds fine to me. Supposedly 450wpc if you feel you're in need of a bit more power!

[hjames]

Wow! Party at Heather and Emma's house!
Remember I have a Carver PM-1.5 I paid a pittance for recently that sounds fine to me.
Supposedly 450wpc if you feel you're in need of a bit more power!

Yes - the Carver PM 175 I got has nice specs - apparently 175ch - 8 ohms stereo, 250ch - 4 ohms, 500w/mono - 8 ohm ...
I didn't really need it with the B&K amps & that Bryston downstairs,
but they demoed the speakers with it, so I had to ask, made an offer and they accepted it!


65245

[hjames]

My goodness Heather you have taken a big bite at that apple.
What do you reckon is the draw with these. You've had plenty of speakers through you emporium so you will have a keen ear .
I have an idea but am keen to hear if you are experiencing what I think you are.

Good score btw. M

Its a couple of things.
The efficiency is really nice - it doesn't take much power to fill the room.
The sound is less cluttered and more direct than with the 3 or 4 ways systems -
there is an immediacy or presence to the sound, a clarity, as if there isn't much between me and the sound.
There is also a focus to the sound image - the soundstage is crisp and clear.

Its also nice that they are apparently not in the collector's eyes right now -
these days when anything with a JBL badge gets listed at a high price,
the UREIs have an outstanding value. (Hidden JBL parts!)

[macaroonie]

Coherence is the word I had in mind. Tannoy has it too , its a trait of dual concentric drivers.

[hjames]

I think coherence is the big part of what I meant when I said focus ...
(if these folks are using it correctly) ...

http://greenmountainaudio.com/what-is-time-coherent-sound/

no special props to them, they just came up when I googled
"Coherence - Audio" - and what was there seemed to fit.

They are right when they talk it about it being magical ...

[rusty jefferson]

I think coherence is the big part of what I meant when I said focus ...
(if these folks are using it correctly) ...

http://greenmountainaudio.com/what-is-tantime-coherent-sound/ (http://greenmountainaudio.com/what-is-time-coherent-sound/)

no special props to them, they just came up when I googled
"Coherence - Audio" - and what was there seemed to fit.

They are right when they talk it about it being magical ...

Interesting that you would come across that. I was using a pair of Green Mountain Audio Diamante speakers right up until I got the UREIs going. The UREIs are definitely more coherent than the GMAs. More "present" or "focused", as you said. No blurring.



...Its also nice that they are apparently not in the collector's eyes right now -
these days when anything with a JBL badge gets listed at a high price,
the UREIs have an outstanding value. (Hidden JBL parts!)

No doubt, people buy with their eyes more than their ears. The UREIs are fugly, to be sure. Very low SAF, WAF, HAF, PAF....:)

[opimax]

I hope you never hear better and are set for life . I have a question related but not about these...is there a direct radiating version? I have seen something I thought was like this but don't have any info, are you aware of any?

[hjames]

I hope you never hear better and are set for life.
I have a question related but not about these...is there a direct radiating version?
I have seen something I thought was like this but don't have any info, are you aware of any?

All I can think about is the old ESS systems with the Heil driver tweeters - but their drivers were elsewhere.
And of course various electrostatic or similar drivers on the baffleboard.

Or do you mean some kind of system with a direct-radiator in front of the woofer?

[rusty jefferson]

...... I have a question related but not about these...is there a direct radiating version? I have seen something I thought was like this but don't have any info, are you aware of any?

I have not seen a direct radiating coax speaker from JBL, but I'm no expert. Perhaps there's a pro stage monitor? I've only seen the horn variants (UREI). There are a few companies selling home audio speakers that are direct radiating coax, as opposed to horn loaded coax. I have a friend who tells me the Emerald Physics speakers sound very good, and are reasonably priced.
http://www.emeraldphysics.com/2012/06/cs3-mk2.html

[speakerdave]

Not that it really matters, but there were the LE12C, the LE14C and the 2150. The first two may have been intended for hi fi; the last was a ceiling speaker. There may been others, not counting auto stuff.

[tinpan]

I waited ... vewy qwietwy ... lest the deal get away!
Dang, sneaked right through my backyard and by my house. Nice score. After hearing these speakers I am also a big fan of them.

When Heather is done collecting hers I may look to add a pair for my office system.

I always thought Urei Heep was a band

[rusty jefferson]

Not that it really matters, but there were the LE12C, the LE14C and the 2150. The first two may have been intended for hi fi; the last was a ceiling speaker. There may been others, not counting auto stuff.

Thanks Dave, I wasn't familiar with any of those models. Google machine searched LE12C and saw this thread from '07:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?18460-Why-No-Coaxials

[hjames]

Thanks Rusty!
Glen's post here in that thread has a lot of info and links on Coaxials!

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?18460-Why-No-Coaxials&p=187685&viewfull=1#post187685

[hjames]

Hauled the Vandy 2CEs upstairs and brought the 2nd pair of 809As downstairs -
set them up on some old teak chairs.

Have to give this some time to eval ... tho Master & Commander sounds great, of course ...

I pulled the grill off for the photos, but the grills normally stay on to protect those blue horns ...

65263

65264

65265

[hjames]

Found 4 of these chairs on the curb for trash pickup a few years back & put them in the shed.
The scandinavian wood design is a match for a set of 4 I bought off CL for our kitchen -
they just need new seat & back pads created and upholstered (simple DIY project).

Anyway, when I was thinking of a stand for the UREIs for side surround, I remembered the chairs and thought - why not?
The height is good when seated or reclined on the sofa, and I love the nice wood shape and color. Teak, I suppose.

65269

65270

[Urei809]

Threads like this make me question what I am about to do, sell my set of Urei809's. I've had them for 20 years and have gone so far as to replace the cabinets with identical (internal dimensions, bracing, ports, etc) cabinets but made from walnut plywood - the fresh cabinets made them sound even better (tighter). After 20 years I think I need to downsize - then this thread makes me question it.

I cannot imagine how you found all those sets.

[hjames]

So, I've probably seen those gorgeous wood Cabinet UREIs in various threads -
did you ever sell them, or did you keep them?

We are just amazed by the sound every time we play a movie in that room ...
or a concert video with good sound ...
I recently got the "Invitation to Illumination" Bluray of Carlos Santana and John McLaughlin Live at Montreux 2011
and its a joy to listen to!


https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DPH7V98/
78788 (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DPH7V98/)




Threads like this make me question what I am about to do, sell my set of Urei809's.
I've had them for 20 years and have gone so far as to replace the cabinets with identical (internal dimensions, bracing, ports, etc)
cabinets but made from walnut plywood - the fresh cabinets made them sound even better (tighter).
After 20 years I think I need to downsize - then this thread makes me question it.

I cannot imagine how you found all those sets.

[thierry]

Hello from south France, in my system i keep the 809 for hi-mid, and under 200hz i use a 18 sud, sound very good at mid low level, the DN360 is there because the room is not finished yet90420

[Odd]

Nice setup.

[Earl K]

Looks Great!!

I especially like the Blue Ports in the sub-woofers ( nice visual touch! )

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=90420

:)

[rusty jefferson]

Love this thread. Can't believe it's been 7 years

[thierry]

Looks Great!!

I especially like the Blue Ports in the sub-woofers ( nice visual touch! )

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=90420

:)This project will be soon in use as main monitors in my private studio, and yesss the 809 and the 18' was and old idea, it took me 25 years for realize it, now i'm retired and get more time, by the way, a friend of mine who get 813B said that it sound much better than the 813, the 809 get air and deliver good low médium, and i get deep bass, maybe i will thought about change the high JBL hornet later. Some new pict in situation soon.

[BMWCCA]

This thread has me wondering: What is the accepted pronunciation of "UREI".

I realize it's simply an acronym for United Recording Electronics Industries, but I've never heard it pronounced "U—R—E—I, like JBL. So what is the accepted way to say it? "Youree" or "Youreye"? Something else?

Anxious to put this one to rest! :confused:

[rusty jefferson]

Like Yuri Gagaran.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Very nice system. I like the simplicity of it.

[hjames]

I have always said it like YOUR - A

EI - like Neighbor or Weigh

(but - if not, it wouldn't be the first time I pronounced something wrong)



This thread has me wondering: What is the accepted pronunciation of "UREI".

I realize it's simply an acronym for United Recording Electronics Industries, but I've never heard it pronounced "U—R—E—I, like JBL. So what is the accepted way to say it? "Youree" or "Youreye"? Something else?

Anxious to put this one to rest! :confused:

[Riley Casey]

Having been a user of UREI equalizers and compressors from before they even made speakers we called them Your-E.


I have always said it like YOUR - A

[Earl K]

Having been a user of UREI equalizers and compressors from before they even made speakers we called them Your-E.

Same here! ( with a slight upward-tilting inflection on the "E" for emphasis >> though that might well have been the Quebec influence ) ;)

:)

[Mr. Widget]

In my corner of the world I’ve always heard it pronounced the way that Rusty said. The same as saying Yuri.


Widget

[Robh3606]

Me too Yuri as in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Gagarin

Rob:)

[speakerdave]

Ay as in neighbor, ee as in Yuri—both good choices. I always favored aye as in heist, but then
I like caper movies. The common practice is best, because getting it right shows how plugged-in you are, but since it's not really a word, none are really wrong. Any will be understood.

[hjames]

One of my "spare" coaxial drivers has bad surrounds and has been sitting on a shelf in the basement, waiting for me to take time to redo it.
Well, I bought a set of 4 surrounds from Rick Cobb last month, and took the time this week to clean it up and redo it.

The Coaxial tweeter driver was unscrewed off the back and removed while I cleaned all the bad surrounds and old glue off the casting and
back of the woofer cone. I do the cleanup using MEK and scrapers on the frame on my back porch with LOTS of fresh air. NASTY stuff, but effective!

I did the usual 2 step process - glue the new surround to the back of the woofer cone.
I did check it with the 30 Hz test tones - then I let it dry overnight,

Next day glue the surround to the speaker frame, and glue down the 4 pieces of the baffle-spacer in place.
Clothespins can hold that down and in place overnight, then, you're done.

Comparison image of JBL 2214 woofers vs UREI 809A Coaxial driver (Same surround kit)

[DerekTheGreat]

Nicely done. One of these days I'd like to attempt a refoam job. Until recently, I did not know they made a coaxial 2214H! Your horns & their foam look perfect, were they redone?


Looks Great!!

I especially like the Blue Ports in the sub-woofers ( nice visual touch! )

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=90420

:)

Very cool set up indeed. Thierry, how do you like that 6500 amplifier?

[DerekTheGreat]

I stumbled upon this thread @ Audiokarma:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/the-saddest-altec-604-urei-815-youll-ever-see.698532/

A discussion about the former Le Studio in Quebec (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Studio) as well as some urban exploration videos of the historic site. They had UREI 815A's! They're actually still there, or were at the time the video was shot. One still in the soffits and another on the floor, the camera man is unaware of their status/significance as he walks past them to pause on a room full of junk instead. Gotta love that about these urbexer's.. The "music" in the videos within that link is terrible, I imagine that if it was possible for fax machines to fornicate, that's what it would sound like. Good thing for the mute feature I guess. Pretty cool to see UREI monitors in the wild, and even cooler to see the acts which might've used them to mix & master their albums.

If anyone else has information about studios which used the UREI 8xx series, please post the stuff here! I've even stumbled across a studio on the west side of Michigan which has two rooms utilizing 813C's and 813B's or A's. Really rad to see them still clocking in on the job.

[RMC]

From memory, Le Studio was built in the 70's in Morin-Heights with large windows and nice forest surroundings proper for creation and low noise recordings. A number of international stars have recorded there, as well as local ones.

Nick Blagona was the Engineer, Andre Perry studio manager and Yeal Brendeist owned the studio (i may have misspell some name here but its pretty much what it was).

However, i simply can't remember the UREI monitors there, nor the recording console they used, dumb me... i might have the info hidden in a pile of Professional Sound Magazines i kept, one of which also presented the Bryston/JBL touring system of a Canadian PA firm.

As i recall, the UREI monitor was designed (at least for the Time Align crossover) by Edward M. Long (Ed Long and Associates). Among other things, he's also credited for the first near-field monitor. Maybe the smaller UREI??

Sorry i can't help you more than that.

Richard

[thierry]

Very cool set up indeed. Thierry, how do you like that 6500 amplifier?[/QUOTE]Hi well, the 6500 power amp from UREI sound good, very powerfull, a bit noisy fan on, i have to exchange the thermistor to lower speed fan (all my studio is in one room). But the sound is very very clear, i have some other amps, but i amways at last for the final mix use the 6500.

[DerekTheGreat]

From memory, Le Studio was built in the 70's in Morin-Heights with large windows and nice forest surroundings proper for creation and low noise recordings. A number of international stars have recorded there, as well as local ones.

Nick Blagona was the Engineer, Andre Perry studio manager and Yeal Brendeist owned the studio (i may have misspell some name here but its pretty much what it was).

However, i simply can't remember the UREI monitors there, nor the recording console they used, dumb me... i might have the info hidden in a pile of Professional Sound Magazines i kept, one of which also presented the Bryston/JBL touring system of a Canadian PA firm.

As i recall, the UREI monitor was designed (at least for the Time Align crossover) by Edward M. Long (Ed Long and Associates). Among other things, he's also credited for the first near-field monitor. Maybe the smaller UREI??

Sorry i can't help you more than that.

Richard

Pretty cool. Maybe they upgraded at some point? I think the music video to April Wine's "I Like to Rock" shows a lot of footage from the studio, but no monitors.


Hi well, the 6500 power amp from UREI sound good, very powerfull, a bit noisy fan on, i have to exchange the thermistor to lower speed fan (all my studio is in one room). But the sound is very very clear, i have some other amps, but i amways at last for the final mix use the 6500.

Good to know, thank you for the response. I can't seem to find very much information about the 6500, but I've got my eye on them. How difficult was it to change the thermistor?

[eso]

Not sure how I missed this thread for... checks calendar... 8 years? Being the guy that makes the wooden replica Urei horns I'd have thought I'd noticed.

I started out building the B series drivers because the parts were plentiful and cheap. Heather's comment about Urei being a good value applies double to the B series since there is no Altec at all. And yet the B series really sounds great. I've got 813B monitors I build–including the 840 networks–in my workshop powered with Urei 6500 amps.


Here's few Urei tidbits...

The Super Urei 811A monitors in fiddleback anigre and redwood burl.

An assortment of horns from an original Altec 604E, And early Urei aftermarket horn for 604E (Mounting for these was slightly altered for the first production monitors), an 801AA horn from A series monitors (604 8K), a B series horn (PAS 1580CX woofer and JBL 2425h compression driver) and an 803 horn (from 12" 809 monitors)

A pair of original 811 monitors that are now in the Nashville area in Alan Freed's grand daughter's studio...

A pair of my wood horns for 604 8G based monitors (There were actually for OEM Audio Marketing "Big Red" monitors)

A set of B series horns for a home theater...

[DerekTheGreat]

Wow, really nice cabinet.

For a fella who likes the look of the blue horn, what type of foam did Urei use or what can I use to redo mine? Looks to be made from a pool noodle.. Also looks like they were painted blue, what color would be a suitable match? Would you happen to make replacement kits? My foam seems to be in good shape, but has deformed a bit. Not sure if it makes much of a difference, my ears still find these speakers to be quite tasty.

[hjames]

Wow - love the look of the dark wood horns! I've got 4 809A coaxials and a spare pair of drivers, just in case.
Just got a 6260 amp (the fanless model) but my back has been iffy lately, and the darned thing is 44 lbs (!) -
a bit harsh to lift and test right now. Oy!


Not sure how I missed this thread for... checks calendar... 8 years? Being the guy that makes the wooden replica Urei horns I'd have thought I'd noticed.

I started out building the B series drivers because the parts were plentiful and cheap. Heather's comment about Urei being a good value applies double to the B series since there is no Altec at all. And yet the B series really sounds great. I've got 813B monitors I build–including the 840 networks–in my workshop powered with Urei 6500 amps.

Here's few Urei tidbits...

A pair of my word horns for 604 8G based monitors (There were actually for OEM Audio Marketing "Big Red" monitors)

A set of B series horns for a home theater...

[BMWCCA]

Just got a 6260 amp (the fanless model) but my back has been iffy lately, and the darned thing is 44 lbs (!) -
a bit harsh to lift and test right now. Oy!You youngsters are just falling apart! ;)

Hoping you feel up to it soon!

[eso]

Wow - love the look of the dark wood horns! I've got 4 809A coaxials and a spare pair of drivers, just in case.
Just got a 6260 amp (the fanless model) but my back has been iffy lately, and the darned thing is 44 lbs (!) -
a bit harsh to lift and test right now. Oy!

Heather, you need one of these... But I suspect you're way too far away to pick one up.

[eso]

Wow, really nice cabinet.

For a fella who likes the look of the blue horn, what type of foam did Urei use or what can I use to redo mine? Looks to be made from a pool noodle.. Also looks like they were painted blue, what color would be a suitable match? Would you happen to make replacement kits? My foam seems to be in good shape, but has deformed a bit. Not sure if it makes much of a difference, my ears still find these speakers to be quite tasty.

The only thing I've seen painted on any version of the Urei horns are the outer foam discs in the Helmholtz resonators in the A series horns. The dense side wall foam and the mouth diffraction buffer foam have been integral color on all that I've seen.

Pool noodle might work. Cutting is the challenge. I should look into making replacements, but I can't imagine there's much of a market there.

[Mr. Widget]

Heather, you need one of these... But I suspect you're way too far away to pick one up.That is am impressive amp!

Your speakers are no slouches either. :bouncy:


Widget

[eso]

On the fancy Ureis, all of the original parts are there, and the little redwood burl panels can access the trim adjustments and the peak lights still work.

The little burl panels are held on with tiny neo magnets.

I wish someone would buy them...

[hjames]

Bought a 6260s recently sent from an AKer in Fla. But sadly, it was bashed around and drop-kicked in shipping and didn't play right, so it went back to the seller ...
That 6500 looks impressive, but prices seem a bit dear right now, and its more wattage than I need!


Heather, you need one of these... But I suspect you're way too far away to pick one up.

[eso]

... and its more wattage than I need!

It's the amp recommended in all of the Urei literature, plus it's the only one with the patented "Conductor Compensation Circuit"

Head room is a good thing! You can drive the older Ureis with the peak indicator lights into lighting up like a christmas tree without clipping. Of course you really don't want to be in the room with them that loud...

[BMWCCA]

Bought a 6260s recently sent from an AKer in Fla. I use mine in my Library/TV room pushing L5s. Very pleased with it and respect it as a functional equivalent to my Crown PS400 and DC300A-II.

[DerekTheGreat]

Heather, you need one of these... But I suspect you're way too far away to pick one up.


It's the amp recommended in all of the Urei literature, plus it's the only one with the patented "Conductor Compensation Circuit"

Head room is a good thing! You can drive the older Ureis with the peak indicator lights into lighting up like a christmas tree without clipping. Of course you really don't want to be in the room with them that loud...

You have any experience with the 6300? What can you say about that conductor compensation circuit, does it really make a difference? I noticed only the 6500 has it. The photo you posted of that 6500 looks familiar, from a dude selling one in California IIRC. I looked at the ad several times, but the seller states he isn't willing to ship it. Wouldn't happen to be yours, would it?? Also, how loud are the fans on 'em? I just picked up a Crown Studio Reference II. I haven't done any serious testing yet, but the fans haven't kicked on once, pretty cool. The inside of it is so clean, I don't think they've ever kicked on.

Good to know about the foam. However, if you did decide to make a kit, I'd be one of your first customers! :)


I use mine in my Library/TV room pushing L5s. Very pleased with it and respect it as a functional equivalent to my Crown PS400 and DC300A-II.

Very good to know! I had my eye on those amps too, but seeing as I already had a PS-200, I (originally) wanted to keep it "in the family" by adding 400's. Didn't work out for me, unfortunately. Now I need to test the SR-II out, see if I dig it and if I do, find a SR-I. :bouncy:

[BMWCCA]

Very good to know! I had my eye on those amps too, but seeing as I already had a PS-200, I (originally) wanted to keep it "in the family" by adding 400's. Didn't work out for me, unfortunately. Now I need to test the SR-II out, see if I dig it and if I do, find a SR-I. :bouncy:

I can't imagine any home scenario where you would need both the Studio Reference-II and the SR-I. But if you do find one, make sure your electrical service can handle it.
:thmbsup:

[eso]

You have any experience with the 6300? What can you say about that conductor compensation circuit, does it really make a difference? I noticed only the 6500 has it. The photo you posted of that 6500 looks familiar, from a dude selling one in California IIRC. I looked at the ad several times, but the seller states he isn't willing to ship it. Wouldn't happen to be yours, would it?? Also, how loud are the fans on 'em? I just picked up a Crown Studio Reference II. I haven't done any serious testing yet, but the fans haven't kicked on once, pretty cool. The inside of it is so clean, I don't think they've ever kicked on.

Good to know about the foam. However, if you did decide to make a kit, I'd be one of your first customers! :)



Very good to know! I had my eye on those amps too, but seeing as I already had a PS-200, I (originally) wanted to keep it "in the family" by adding 400's. Didn't work out for me, unfortunately. Now I need to test the SR-II out, see if I dig it and if I do, find a SR-I. :bouncy:

This US Audio Mart ad?

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649930432-urei-6500-amplifier/

Yes, that's me. Crated and shipper proofed one might exceed the weight limit for USPS/UPS/FedEx and have to be sent freight. Even if the parcel carriers would take it I don't trust them handling it.

That fans cycle on startup and then drop down to a very low speed that doesn't bother me.

The conductor compensation circuit is interesting. What is actually is is a loop in the amp feedback circuit that includes the crossovers so the speaker cables become part of the amp. Think about set up in a recording studio and the length of runs and that could be a really big deal. The longer your cable runs that bigger the impact with this.

And these things are full dual mono: two power supplies and two amps. They're beautiful.

Re-creating original Urei blue foam diffraction buffers is on my list of things to do, but it's still a little way down the list behind the back TAD monitors and 2 turntable projects...

eso

[DerekTheGreat]

Yep, that's the one. :)

Were they originally shipped in crates? This SR-II came to me from California with no damage, insulated on every side by thick styrofoam...

The fan would probably irk me, I listen at very low levels when I'm working from home, so it would have to be something I experimented with. Can they easily be modified such that they are on demand?

I see, thank you for the better explanation. I've read a little about it from UREI's literature, but I am a laymen and don't fully understand all the terminology. Kind of a dhumbass, really.. On that note, when you've used the conductor compensator circuit, have you noticed a difference sound wise? I believe my cable runs are just under 8 ft.

Dual mono is very appealing, that and since they were designed for the 8xx series monitors has me desiring to own one, complete the collection. Sadly, I've just purchased that SR-II, so the audio bux coffers are a bit depleted at the moment. Otherwise I'd be very interested in nabbing that amplifier.

Gotcha, I could probably wait. Buut, in case I want a project, what type of foam would you use?

[eso]

Yep, that's the one. :)

Were they originally shipped in crates? This SR-II came to me from California with no damage, insulated on every side by thick styrofoam...

The fan would probably irk me, I listen at very low levels when I'm working from home, so it would have to be something I experimented with. Can they easily be modified such that they are on demand?

I see, thank you for the better explanation. I've read a little about it from UREI's literature, but I am a laymen and don't fully understand all the terminology. Kind of a dhumbass, really.. On that note, when you've used the conductor compensator circuit, have you noticed a difference sound wise? I believe my cable runs are just under 8 ft.

Dual mono is very appealing, that and since they were designed for the 8xx series monitors has me desiring to own one, complete the collection. Sadly, I've just purchased that SR-II, so the audio bux coffers are a bit depleted at the moment. Otherwise I'd be very interested in nabbing that amplifier.

Gotcha, I could probably wait. Buut, in case I want a project, what type of foam would you use?

Urei literature lists the net weight at 84# and shipping weight at 95#. That doesn't sound like crating to me, but delivery driver quality has plummeted in recent years. I've received some items I had shipped to me that arrived poorly. I try to make sure if I ship something the packing is gorilla proof.

But parcel shippers won't take crates, only boxed goods so then I end up boxing the crates... But things arrive safely and that is my concern.

Don't know about disabling the fans. I'm a wood butcher, not a sparky. But with the full dual mono design each channel has it's own power switch; you can run only one channel if need be.

8' cables would have minimal improvement from the conductor compensation. The longer the runs the more the improvement, and the improvements are most notable in transient response.

For the Urei horn lips, I'd probably start experimenting with blue pool noodles...

[DerekTheGreat]

Oh wow, that is one hefty amplifier. Would be the heaviest I've ever muscled around, think I would need help.. Right, within the last year I've dealt with two packages that were damaged.

10-4. I suppose if I ever ended up with one I'd see about having it modded, I only know how to turn wrenches, and with some mediocrity. Also great to know about the conductor compensation. I could never come across anything that read in such a way I could decipher.

Cool! Glad to know I wouldn't be seen as a hack for doing that haha.

[DerekTheGreat]

This past weekend my 813C's had puppies:

[DerekTheGreat]

Angela spotted a listing for a set of 811C's that were practically in our backyard, couldn't resist. When we got there, the gentleman said he had a third one he'd like to sell to us if we were interested. Yep, I have an addiction and couldn't turn these away. Actually wanted three, as the goal is to use these as L, R and C in the home theater. The fella had all kinds of groovy JBL stuff and we got to talking, we didn't leave until about two hours later.

[Earl K]

Wow, now that's real cool!!

:)

[srm51555]

Good stuff

[DerekTheGreat]

Thank you, fellas!!

Pretty stoked about 'em.

..On a side note: why don't these have tuned ports like most other speakers? Why just little boxes cut into the cabinets? Isn't that just lazy? Would they sound better if tuned? For what these things cost new, I'm surprised they are this way.. For example, 4435's are tuned and look better aesthetically, yet those were significantly less $$$ than 813C's. What gives?

[hjames]

This past weekend my 813C's had puppies:
Yeah, you got it bad, and thats real good!
So ... collect the whole set! ;)

[Riley Casey]

How are these not tuned ports?



Thank you, fellas!!

... why don't these have tuned ports like most other speakers? Why just little boxes cut into the cabinets? Isn't that just lazy? Would they sound better if tuned? For what these things cost new, I'm surprised they are this way.. For example, 4435's are tuned and look better aesthetically, yet those were significantly less $$$ than 813C's. What gives?

[DerekTheGreat]

Yeah, you got it bad, and thats real good!
So ... collect the whole set! ;)


:bouncy: Just need me some 809's or another pair of 811C's and I can have a 5.2 UREI surround sound set up.


How are these not tuned ports?

They're just cut outs in the box.. Aren't tuned ports supposed to be tubular of a specific length?

[Mike Caldwell]

:bouncy: Just need me some 809's or another pair of 811C's and I can have a 5.2 UREI surround sound set up. They're just cut outs in the box.. Aren't tuned ports supposed to be tubular of a specific length? Those are tuned as per the size of the hole in the box even if it does not have any ducting, well it has 3/4 inch of ducting. Among other things adding ducting length to a port lets you increase the port size while keeping the tuning frequency the same.

[RMC]

Derek,

A port or vent can be many shapes and still keep the name "port": round, rectangle, square, triangle, slot. Shape is not really a concern and as long as dimensions are not extreme (too large/long or too small). Some JBL SR boxes use triangular vents, mostly due to baffle space use.

The first consequence of using a longer tube (or other) is tuning the box lower, other things being equal. Then in order to make it shorter one may use a larger area port (e.g. increased diameter). In speaker software i play with both port area and length up until a combination does the trick for a specific project.

Without port covers its definitely a vented box, but if the port covers were on it would "flirt" with a sealed box, or at least be considered as a hybrid cab, not really a vented box.

Since there's fans for everything i guess one could mimic or so sealed cab operation/transient response when covering the vents with the foam plugs. If they're high density foam it could block vent action, but if low density foam it would be seen as a resistive vent.

As reported by Dickason, Thiele had nothing positive to say with regards to resistive vents, such as higher F3, lower efficiency, higher distortion, etc and concluded why bother? (I posted this before in my BGW thread).

I had a quick look twice at the JBL/Urei Tech Manual (813C) and owner manual (811C, 813C, 815C) for any info and explanations about the foam plugs use (when, why, etc) and to my surprise didn't see anything (or i'm blind). This apparent silence is very curious in view of the consequences (i.e. Thiele's). I find this inexcusable due to the implications.

Richard

[Robh3606]

Those foam covers add air resistance just like a port. Depending on the density and thickness of the foam you can shorten the duct lengths. JBL does this in the shallow cinema boxes where the duct length is restricted because of the depth of the box.

I wouldn't be so quick to just write the foam off as just covers without a better understanding of the box tuning. They could actually be a critical part of the "duct length".

Rob :}

[DerekTheGreat]

Thank you for the responses, fellas.

I've seen that image before, worth a chuckle for me as it's inaccurate as it suggests each woofer has it's own enclosure. They do not. As a layman, I'm just trying to understand why there is no port (and no seperate enclosure for each woofer) despite the high price tag these things carried. The port size is the same between the 811C and 813C, I figured the single woofer and lower cabinet volume might have lead to a different port design or size. They sound phenomenal to me, but sometimes I think, "Wow, they're just a super heavy black box with a coax driver and helper woofer. The profit margin on these had to be 80% or better..." Meanwhile, I look at 4435's and think, "Wow, these are beautiful. Nice wood veneer and Dolly Parton's likeness. However, their sensitivity is lower as was their price tag..."

I also thought the foam plugs were just cosmetic. Had no idea they could result in lower efficiency, although my 813C's plugs are missing. However, the entire cabinet of each 813 is STUFFED with wool. Same for the B460 clones. I never asked RustyJefferson why he did that, just took it as a beneficial mod from a sage. Figured if he took the time to fill the cabinets, it was for an improvement. So of course I've left that stuff in there and am wondering if I should fill the cabinet of the 811Cs with it as well.

[RMC]

Since you mention the entire cabinet of each 813 is STUFFED with wool. The absence of separate enclosures might be linked to the wool stuffing. The increased absorption from a lot of wool may actually render another chamber unnecessary, the drivers back waves may be absorbed anyway.

Wool stuffing is typical on sealed box systems. In vented boxes wool is typically lined on the panels, not stuffed. But there's an exception: more wool to generate additional box volume (see below).

Here, the wool stuffing and the standard port covers could be clues the box should normally be used with these on, mimic a sealed box or simply a resistive port. In that view removing the port covers would be sort of an exception, maybe to satisfy vented box "hardliners" on efficiency, distortion, cone travel, etc. Hard to say for sure when JBL/Urei has failed to explain their intent and purpose in the docs i have.

I don't know Jefferson's motivation with regards to stuffing of the B460 clone. A possible explanation that comes to mind is that he possibly wanted to create virtual volume for the box (larger size). By adding a fair amount of wool in the cab the woofer then "sees" the box as if it was larger than actual due to increased absorption. For even lower F3, flatten some bump or to mitigate a resonance ?

Richard

[rusty jefferson]

Derek,

As mentioned, the vents are tuned even though they don't use port tubes. This wasn't uncommon at the time these speakers were developed and other companies did similar things, mainly speakers of high efficiency with large box volume and low-ish woofer excursion. I've never seen what they were tuned to anywhere but nobody made speakers that went deep during this period of time.

More important than the port (imo) is the placement of the speakers. They were designed to be soffit mounted or at a minimum, be mounted in a 2pi space. Bass from the speakers is very different mounted in a soffit compared to what you're hearing in your living room (or mine) with them in 4pi space. That's why I built the b460 clones even before we updated the UREIs. The 813s are rolling off at about 100hz in 4pi (even higher with the 811s). You can see this in the FR graphs in the manual.

As far as the fill goes, I think filled is a better descriptor than stuffed. I removed the standard wad of polyester fill that was packed around the woofers probably by the studio that bought them or possibly JBL, I don't know. There are different reasons to adjust the fill of speakers and I have no idea what the original intent was but I know this was pretty common in that era and I'd seen it done to several pairs. I lightly refilled the cabinets with a couple pounds of the loose wool fiber in there now. What looks like a lot of fill could be compacted down into a large ziploc bag. They aren't stuffed tight, just filled loosely. My intention was to reduce the back wave of the woofers and the port output because I was crossing over to the subwoofers. Slightly overdamping the cabinets really helped keep the bass clean and tight in my room, something important to me (but not everyone). No overhang or boominess. They measured remarkably flat in my living room and had nuanced bass.

[rusty jefferson]

... No overhang or boominess. They measured remarkably flat in my living room and had nuanced bass.
The whole 'system' that is, the UREIs and the subwoofers.

BTW, there's not a lot of difference between the 813C and the 4435 to warrant moving from one to the other (imo) except for appearance. Both were intended to be soffit mounted and are only playing flat to 50hz-60hz in 2pi (without eq)(see link below) and really need those subwoofers to be full range. I've seen several 4435 users here who have systems like yours, with 2245s (or something similar) underneath. They both use the 2425h compression drivers and sound slightly different but not a better or worse scenario. And certainly not like comparing either of the older models to something current. A comparison here between 4435 and 813C:

http://www.cieri.net/Documenti/JBL/Technical%20Notes/JBL%20Technical%20Note%20-%20Vol.1,%20No.15.pdf

[DerekTheGreat]

I appreciate the responses, learning stuff here!

Oh, I measured the thickness of the cabinets and they're 1" thick, if not more! The lip where the foam plug would sit adds about a 1/4", I assume it's 1" thick everywhere else. Certainly helps explain the weight of those cabs.

Rusty, the bass on the entire system is TIGHT. The tightest bass I've ever experienced. The 813C's themselves have this dry, tight thwack to them that adds to my experience of drum kits (and probably everything else in that frequency range) and overall enjoyment of music. It truly feels as if I'm in the same room as the drum kit. The 2425h adds to that, I've never heard cymbals/hi hat sound so.. life-like. Not a super huge fan of The Police, but looove "Walking on the Moon" for the way ole Stewart plays his kit. Nice tight kick drum with huge sound or fill accompanied with the tickling and crashing of the cymbals. Love it.

When I auditioned those 811C's, I used Fleetwood Mac's "The Chain" to shake 'em down. I noticed a lack of detail, clarity and realism. It wasn't super huge, but I did notice something was missing. Could have been that there was no low reinforcement or the signal or the equipment and/or room. Not sure, but the crossovers are original and there's no wool. Gotta fix that. Rusty, where did you get the wool you used? Wondering if I could find some at Joane's.

I have read that tech article, before that I had no idea those were competing systems or used the same HF driver.

[rusty jefferson]

I'm pretty sure the baffle is 1.5" thick and the rest is 3/4" or 1" MDF on the UREIs. The E-145 has that thick frame that is counter sunk into the baffle 1 layer of the MDF. The subs are 1" MDF following the Greg Timbers plan in the library.

I think your description of the bass as dry is a good one. That's what I meant when I said no overhang. Snappy transients and quick start/stop of the drivers. I had several drummers and bass players here who thought the bass articulation was excellent. I think a lot of listeners probably prefer more bass bloom, but that's just a listening preference. The fill is super easy to remove if you want to experiment but you can probably change/adjust the mid-bass more effectively (if you want change) by rotating the cabinets to put the helper woofers closer to the side walls.

I'll see if I can find the folks I bought the wool from (in Canada I know) but you probably won't gain anything in the 811s as the single E-145 isn't playing much bass in that size cabinet. You're going to want subwoofers under them for sure and could probably tighten the subs up by adding wool depending on what type you use.

As always, the room will likely have more influence on the bass response than does port tuning and positioning. I had a good room for bass response that helped a lot. I have an engineer friend who always says after a failed audio experiment like trying out a great speaker in a bad room, "Once again, beautiful theory butts up against ugly old reality".

JBL was going to find a way to sell studios control room monitors and there's no better way than buying the competition (UREI) and offering that product as well as a slightly different sound with a very different look. :-D

[DerekTheGreat]

I love the snappy transients and such I get from these UREI's. I never knew what I was missing until I found it, now I couldn't live without it. I don't know what else I could compare them to, but everything I've heard before these leaves more to be desired. I told the guy I bought the 811C's off of that I have XPL200's, he just about lost it, "I want 'em!" In my mind those have become a consumer speaker, great for home theater. But they do not do for me what the 813C's + B460's do.

I'll have subs under the 811C's, M&K MX-350THX's. They employ dual drivers, one pushes while the other pulls. Was a new concept for me, but they blew the JBL E250's they replaced right out of the water. Going to use my receiver's crossover feature to run them up to 120hz or maybe even 140hz based on their roll off. I hope they sound OK playing up that high. I know I don't care for the 2245H's bass above 100hz, don't know much about M&K though... Also, the room down there isn't as ideal as the room the 813C's are setup in. I have the XO on the BX63A set to 90 or 85hz with the 813C's. I haven't mic'd the room or anything, but I feel as if I'm not missing anything. However, it's probably bass heavy in there. I like feeling that kick in my chest. :D

[DerekTheGreat]

I finally got the 811C's downstairs. Things were heavy, ended up pulling the drivers to make lifting easier. Also swapped the drivers from them to my 813C's as the foam lips were much nicer. The cabinets of all three were stuffed with sound deadening material, was pleasantly surprised to see that.

Trouble is, I'm getting a hum from them even when my receiver is off. (Marantz SR7005 circa 2011). It didn't do that with the XPL200's. Of course, it goes away when you hit mute. Hum is also present anytime the receiver is on. Never had this issue with any other speaker connected to the receiver, what gives?

[hjames]

I finally got the 811C's downstairs. Things were heavy, ended up pulling the drivers to make lifting easier. Also swapped the drivers from them to my 813C's as the foam lips were much nicer. The cabinets of all three were stuffed with sound deadening material, was pleasantly surprised to see that.

Trouble is, I'm getting a hum from them even when my receiver is off. (Marantz SR7005 circa 2011). It didn't do that with the XPL200's. Of course, it goes away when you hit mute. Hum is also present anytime the receiver is on. Never had this issue with any other speaker connected to the receiver, what gives?
If you unplug the receiver, do you still get a hum? If not, you have a faulty power switch in the receiver, at a minimum.

[Mike Caldwell]

A lot of new'ish home theater equipment never really shuts all the way off, there is always a standby power circuit active waiting on a remote control power on command or even the push of the power button. What does happen when the receiver is unplugged? What else is connected to the receiver? Maybe try disconnecting those inputs?

[rusty jefferson]

Depending on how loud it is, it may have been there but you didn't notice it. Aren't the 811s about 100db efficient?

[DerekTheGreat]

If you unplug the receiver, do you still get a hum? If not, you have a faulty power switch in the receiver, at a minimum.

A lot of new'ish home theater equipment never really shuts all the way off, there is always a standby power circuit active waiting on a remote control power on command or even the push of the power button. What does happen when the receiver is unplugged? What else is connected to the receiver? Maybe try disconnecting those inputs?

The hum goes away when unplugged. Sounds like that typical 60hz ground loop deal. That makes sense, the standby feature. There is really only one thing connected to it at all times, an Xbox One Series X. There is another input, a component connection. That is used any time something temporary is to be hooked up, like a PS2. The only output from the receiver is an HDMI cable running to the TV. Now that I'm thinking about it though, there is a coax cable that is hanging out in case I want to run the VCR or other old school video game systems or things which output with a yellow RCA cable. Those things need a booster, which is what uses that coax cable. (otherwise my TV screen will flicker intermittently) Would open-ended cables cause hum?


Depending on how loud it is, it may have been there but you didn't notice it. Aren't the 811s about 100db efficient?

Just about, 97dB. That is a possibility, but I feel my ears are super sensitive, that I'd have noticed it before. However, I've also been fooled before as well... The hum gets a bit worse when the receiver is turned on, you can hear it slightly from the listening position, it's a bit annoying if there's no audio coming from the thing. When the receiver is off, you have to put your ears right at the horns in order to hear it. With all the trouble I went through to get my system upstairs quiet, I was amazed that I never had noise from the Marantz, given it just connects to the wall with a 1940's two prong plug... At least one prong is wide so you can't mix it up? The lights down there are on a dimmer, I'll see if that has anything to do with the issue.

Thank you for the input, everyone. It helps. Hate that hum...

EDIT: The subwoofers are the type that are on at all times, they never enter standby mode, would that matter?

[Mike Caldwell]

With the receiver plugged in try disconnecting the input sources connected to the receiver one at a time.

[1audiohack]

Hey Derek;

Just a thought, a one end unterminated conductor can act like an antenna. Especially when connected to and audio input like your unused game cable.

Happy hunting.
Barry.

[eso]

Derek,

As mentioned, the vents are tuned even though they don't use port tubes...

I don't believe that is the case.

My understanding is that the Urei monitor cabinets area designed as Aperiodic vents. The cabinets are over stuffed and the vents are primarily sized to silently bleed and equalize air pressure. In the attached page from Urei's 1977 catalog notice the bullet point regarding the 11.5 cu. ft. enclosure.

Remember these were designed to be soffit mounted so the low end got a lot of support from the extended baffle area of the soffits.

Really, reflex ports amplify a resonant frequency and amount to a controlled group delay distortion.

eso

[thierry]

Nicely done. One of these days I'd like to attempt a refoam job. Until recently, I did not know they made a coaxial 2214H! Your horns & their foam look perfect, were they redone?Very cool set up indeed. Thierry, how do you like that 6500 amplifier?I was running out of space in my control room, and like the sound of the 809, maybe even more than the 813 A B or C... And finding 815s in France...hahaha... practically impossible! as below 200 hertz on the 809 there is not much hanging around... I started with the idea of building an 18 box, with the specifications of not exceeding the size of the 809, question of space while retaining the UREI design. Well, building the box was easy... afterward to tune it.... weeks and weeks of work impossible to calculate with a computer program because it says it's impossible ! you have to do it by ear and by saw... I like the result! the DN360 is just here because I listen all the time on the UREI at low/medium volume, it serves as loudness for me, for two years I have been doing my mixes on these speakers, and I must say that the result suits me, obviously the 6500 does a lot of the work, it just has noisy fans (and I've changed the thermistors 3 or 4 times). To finish in fact I also have 813b which I recently sold without regrets! UREI forever!

[Mr. Widget]

Nice! Which 18 are you using?

Any close up pictures of the Urei and you sub?


Widget

[thierry]

Nice! Which 18 are you using?Any close up pictures of the Urei and you sub?WidgetYes sure ! I use a basic celestion 18 and a passive hi pass filter 240hertz, and a picture of me of course...AND !!! if i would have more space here, i will try this...(see last pict) I know where I can have a pair of 813B for a "good" price, and the 18 sub below will be perfect under ! maybe the ultimate Urei !

[RMC]

RE building an 18 box, with the specifications of not exceeding the size of the 809, question of space

Fitting an 18" in a 65 liter (2.3 cu. ft.) box is rather optimistic, even more so if one is expecting proper sound.

However, with a 12" it is possible with acceptable efficiency and about 40-45 hz bass. So that would extend LF coverage notably, plus driver chosen could possibly provide similar sensitivity to the 809.

Richard

[thierry]

RE building an 18 box, with the specifications of not exceeding the size of the 809, question of space Fitting an 18" in a 65 liter (2.3 cu. ft.) box is rather optimistic, even more so if one is expecting proper sound.However, with a 12" it is possible with acceptable efficiency and about 40-45 hz bass. So that would extend LF coverage notably, plus driver chosen could possibly provide similar sensitivity to the 809.RichardYes sorry I explained myself badly... The 2 sub are bigger than a 809! look at the photos! t in fact I have 112 liters in the box....

[hjames]

Yes sorry I explained myself badly... The 2 sub are bigger than a 809! look at the photos! t in fact I have 112 liters in the box....
Nice nice! More pix, please!

[rusty jefferson]

C'mon, you can get those 813C and subs (looks like maybe 2245?) in there. You just have to move all that other 'stuff' out of the way. ;-D

[thierry]

Nice nice! More pix, please!Thanks for the nice! it's just work, even if it's not perfect, the idea was to be able to do mastering with UREI 809s in my "small" room under the roof with low frequencies as is currently the fashion whith young musicians (I am 62) and it works well.BUT…. BUT…. I'm going to buy a TAC SR 9000 analog desk soon, well I mean getting it almost for nothing.... (around $300) A big analog table to repair ….And I'm going to move now that I have the finances in a bigger place ...And I think back to the 813b on a subwoofer equal in size but with a sub of 21.... da da da! (look at my previous photo)... the hardest part is getting the 813b home to build all this, I will do it soon.... if I have time... I have been working with UREI speakers for 37 years now...

[thierry]

C'mon, you can get those 813C and subs (looks like maybe 2245?) in there. You just have to move all that other 'stuff' out of the way. ;-Dyessss..... sure.... :-)))) i have a wood floor here... I need then to mix INSIDE the speakers ! :-)

[thierry]

yessss..... sure.... :-)))) i have a wood floor here... I need then to mix INSIDE the speakers ! :-)A little last new.... I've found a pair of 815 in Germany as it's not so far from me i'll take a look at then in january, luck for me my german is better than my english. The prise is...... at it should be for thoose kind of speakers, but i will see in place, you have somme cheap ones in Italy (Roma) also but the look is very used, speakers seems good... Roma is far from me and driving in Italy.... héhéhé....

[DerekTheGreat]

Great posts, Thierry!!

All this UREI porn just does wonders for my soul! Great to see others lovin' on UREI too. :D

Really cool to see pics of you back in the day side by side pics of you from today with UREI gear. Good to know about the 6500 amp as well. I just had two dedicated 20A outlets added to my living room to support the amplifiers and other gear I intend to run my UREI's with.

Lastly, you NEED those 815's in your life. :bouncy:

[thierry]

Great posts, Thierry!!All this UREI porn just does wonders for my soul! Great to see others lovin' on UREI too. :DReally cool to see pics of you back in the day side by side pics of you from today with UREI gear. Good to know about the 6500 amp as well. I just had two dedicated 20A outlets added to my living room to support the amplifiers and other gear I intend to run my UREI's with.Lastly, you NEED those 815's in your life. :bouncy:Yep I have to go to hannover for the 815, nice trip from south France... For the TAC sr 9000, i whent to check it yesderday.... mein got ! bolchemoy, gross catastroph, big damages ! the desk seem to be stay outside for few years... i found some sand inside ! and lot's of smal dead animals.... all the penny and gilles faders are glue in place, knobs too... i offer a cheap price for it.... i will see, yes porn UREI that's a good word ! Let's go back in the past late 77's the first ones i bought then new !

[DerekTheGreat]

More cool pics! Pretty rad that you bought the monitors brand new. What made you choose UREI monitors over all of the other offerings?

Sand? Dead animals? Sheesh. Aren't consoles like that super expensive? Especially when new? Sad to see people abuse gear like that. Reminds me of Le Studio, their gear ended up with a similar fate. They had 815A's or B's, if I remember right. Some urban explorer filmed what was left of the studio a few years ago, there they were right on the floor amidst other rubble. :(

[DerekTheGreat]

I was reading Rob's posts and the legendary Mr. Timbers' comments about the 4367 here: https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?42403-4367&p=446769#post446769 Timbers mentions that the horn of the 4367 is in the wrong orientation and as a result, it cannot touch any Array in terms of imaging. With that in mind (and other stuff I've come across which suggests it's best to have your horns arranged vertically), why does the literature for UREI systems recommend orienting the horns horizontally? Would there be any gains if I rotated my horns such that they're vertical?

[hjames]

I was reading Rob's posts and the legendary Mr. Timbers' comments about the 4367 here: https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?42403-4367&p=446769#post446769 Timbers mentions that the horn of the 4367 is in the wrong orientation and as a result, it cannot touch any Array in terms of imaging. With that in mind (and other stuff I've come across which suggests it's best to have your horns arranged vertically), why does the literature for UREI systems recommend orienting the horns horizontally? Would there be any gains if I rotated my horns such that they're vertical?

Seems easy enough to unbolt one of your woofers and rotate it 90 degrees to see how it plays for you ...
Other than the heavy lift required to put those monsters on their back.

[rusty jefferson]

Others here are more knowledgeable about the 1400 Array but I believe the horizontal dispersion is 60 degrees even though the horn is mounted non-traditionally. If you turn your horns vertically you'll only have 30 degree horizontal dispersion, not good. They were designed to be horizontally mounted and the Array series was designed to be vertically mounted. The Array do create a better soundstage, but I've not heard speakers that image better than the UREIs because of the time alignment of the coaxial drivers.

[Mr. Widget]

...but I've not heard speakers that image better than the UREIs because of the time alignment of the coaxial drivers.I agree that the UREI monitors image well, but I believe the time alignment aspect was '80s sales hype. That was the time when B&W had their 801s and KEF had the 105s both with staggered drivers for better time alignment, and Dahlquist had their DQ10s with their take on a similar design. It was engineers and marketing types chasing a holy grail.

If you take a non-time aligned speaker and digitally time align it to a higher perfection than any of those physically offset designs, it will not magically start to image better. It will certainly sound different as you can better integrate the crossover points, but imaging will not be significantly changed.

The better your directivity and pattern control the better your imaging will be. That and how you deploy them in the room are the greatest influence on imaging.


Widget

[rusty jefferson]

...If you take a non-time aligned speaker and digitally time align it to a higher perfection than any of those physically offset designs, it will not magically start to image better. It will certainly sound different as you can better integrate the crossover points, but imaging will not be significantly changed.

The better your directivity and pattern control the better your imaging will be. That and how you deploy them in the room are the greatest influence on imaging.

Widget
Kind of apples and oranges but I don't disagree with that statement in reference to home listening/speakers. The point source nature of the UREI coax with time alignment, even as rudimentary as it was by today's standards, and listened to on axis in a non-reverberant studio setting has pinpoint images. Non-existent soundstage, but great imaging, imho. You're not going to get that from 43xx 4 ways through digital processing or anything else, so there's gotta be something to it. :-)

[Mr. Widget]

You're not going to get that from 43xx 4 ways through digital processing or anything else, so there's gotta be something to it. :-)Actually you are making my point exactly... one that I must not have made clearly.

Take any 43xx 3-way, 4-way... they can be multi-amped and precisely time aligned and it will not significantly change their imaging. This is because like most speakers of the last 50 years, the polar response across their entire spectrum is a raging nightmare. Mirror imaging doesn't fix this, time alignment doesn't fix this, realistically there is nothing to be done with these designs if imaging is the goal.

To get a very consistent and controlled polar response from ~500Hz up is very difficult without waveguides and a fair amount of design and care. As it turns out coaxial designs like the modern KEF LS50, the Genelec Monitors, and the vintage UREIs have inherently better directivity control (wide frequency response range polar response) than traditional speakers... AR3a, L100s, and >90% of everything else out there. Many of the better designed 2-way mini-monitors image well because the small woofer and dome tweeter on a compact and narrow baffle can exhibit very good directivity, but even following this model is no guaranty.


Widget

[DerekTheGreat]

Others here are more knowledgeable about the 1400 Array but I believe the horizontal dispersion is 60 degrees even though the horn is mounted non-traditionally. If you turn your horns vertically you'll only have 30 degree horizontal dispersion, not good. They were designed to be horizontally mounted and the Array series was designed to be vertically mounted. The Array do create a better soundstage, but I've not heard speakers that image better than the UREIs because of the time alignment of the coaxial drivers.

Ah, thank you for the explanation. They definitely sound sweeter when I'm in that dispersion area. Guessing I'd kill that area even more if I went vertical.


I agree that the UREI monitors image well, but I believe the time alignment aspect was '80s sales hype. That was the time when B&W had their 801s and KEF had the 105s both with staggered drivers for better time alignment, and Dahlquist had their DQ10s with their take on a similar design. It was engineers and marketing types chasing a holy grail...

Widget

I don't disagree, but what there is something about these UREI systems... I read the paper about Time Align and thought it might be BS. Afterall, the All-Knowing PWK didn't Time Align any of his fabled systems and people love them (By the way, are the newer versions Time Aligned???). But then I got my UREI's home and dialed in to my liking. I became a believer. Maybe it's the coax design that I'm in love with then, not sure. What I do know is that the two, three and four-way systems I had no longer sound great as they once did, it's as if they sound blurry to me, if that makes sense. I'm an idiot, and so the best way I can make sense of it is to attribute that to the different drivers spewing different portions of the audio spectrum separate from each other while the UREI's are spewing the all-important midrange and treble right from the same source. Part of me wishes to hear these better systems that exist, but the "ignorance is bliss" part is afraid of what monster that might create within.


...To get a very consistent and controlled polar response from ~500Hz up is very difficult without waveguides and a fair amount of design and care. As it turns out coaxial designs like the modern KEF LS50, the Genelec Monitors, and the vintage UREIs have inherently better directivity control (wide frequency response range polar response) than traditional speakers... AR3a, L100s, and >90% of everything else out there. Many of the better designed 2-way mini-monitors image well because the small woofer and dome tweeter on a compact and narrow baffle can exhibit very good directivity, but even following this model is no guaranty.


Widget

What is it about KEF speakers that I seem to be missing? I looked up the LS50's just now and my impression of them is the same as any of those other little bubble-square speakers they make- not enough SPL for me. Those ones specifically have a 760 watt amplifier hanging off the back of 'em (could be the total between both speakers) and yet their maximum SPL as stated by KEF is only 108... They might sound pretty at 60-80dB, but that's ultimately not going to cut it for this SPL junky.

[BMWCCA]

Actually you are making my point exactly... one that I must not have made clearly.

Take any 43xx 3-way, 4-way... they can be multi-amped and precisely time aligned and it will not significantly change their imaging. This is because like most speakers of the last 50 years, the polar response across their entire spectrum is a raging nightmare. Mirror imaging doesn't fix this, time alignment doesn't fix this, realistically there is nothing to be done with these designs if imaging is the goal.

To get a very consistent and controlled polar response from ~500Hz up is very difficult without waveguides and a fair amount of design and care. As it turns out coaxial designs like the modern KEF LS50, the Genelec Monitors, and the vintage UREIs have inherently better directivity control (wide frequency response range polar response) than traditional speakers... AR3a, L100s, and >90% of everything else out there. Many of the better designed 2-way mini-monitors image well because the small woofer and dome tweeter on a compact and narrow baffle can exhibit very good directivity, but even following this model is no guaranty.

Odd that this discussion comes up now. My wife made her way to the basement workshop last night and sat in the listening chair while I was playing the Kind Of Blue Deluxe 50th Anniversary Collector's Edition and the first thing she asked was if all four pairs were playing, when in fact the only ones playing were the 250ti on the ends. Then she commented on how distinct each individual instrument was and how everything was placed so well across the room. She doesn't know the term "soundstage" but she certainly gets it. Not sure why it would take a 2-way with a wave-guide to improve this but I'm pretty pleased with the way the massive 4-way pyramid does it—without a modern wave-guide. At one point I toyed with getting a 1400 Array. Maybe that needs to be my next acquisition just to see what it can do. At the time I got sidetracked by the 4345 for the same money. :hmm:

[rusty jefferson]

Actually you are making my point exactly... one that I must not have made clearly.

Take any 43xx 3-way, 4-way... they can be multi-amped and precisely time aligned and it will not significantly change their imaging. This is because like most speakers of the last 50 years, the polar response across their entire spectrum is a raging nightmare. Mirror imaging doesn't fix this, time alignment doesn't fix this, realistically there is nothing to be done with these designs if imaging is the goal....
Widget
Agreed, 100% :-)




....To get a very consistent and controlled polar response from ~500Hz up is very difficult without waveguides and a fair amount of design and care. As it turns out coaxial designs like the modern KEF LS50, the Genelec Monitors, and the vintage UREIs have inherently better directivity control (wide frequency response range polar response) than traditional speakers... AR3a, L100s, and >90% of everything else out there. Many of the better designed 2-way mini-monitors image well because the small woofer and dome tweeter on a compact and narrow baffle can exhibit very good directivity, but even following this model is no guaranty.
Widget
It's probably me but you are losing me here. I wouldn't have put the UREIs in the good controlled directivity category like say the 708 monitors. Can't imagine the polar of a UREI would be as good as the 708. I'm not convinced it isn't the point source (and time alignment) that gives UREIs that coherence? I'd like to do a side by side between the 708 and the KEF LS50. I'm sure they'd sound different, but I'd imagine the KEF would be more coherent (focused). Maybe not though.

[Mr. Widget]

It's probably me but you are losing me here. I wouldn't have put the UREIs in the good controlled directivity category like say the 708 monitors. Can't imagine the polar of a UREI would be as good as the 708. I'm not convinced it isn't the point source (and time alignment) that gives UREIs that coherence? I'd like to do a side by side between the 708 and the KEF LS50. I'm sure they'd sound different, but I'd imagine the KEF would be more coherent (focused). Maybe not though.Again we are using words to describe a psychoacoustic phenomenon and that is tricky at best.

When I think of good imaging I am describing the disappearing act that a speaker can perform when creating a holographic sonic image in a stereo configuration.

Using that definition, I do not know how the UREIs compare to the 708s or LS50s... they will all perform differently and will all be affected by the rooms they are in and the placement within the room, but a well controlled room and fairly narrow dispersion characteristics to reduce secondary reflected sounds go a long way to creating a coherent and stable image.

In my experience the best imaging speakers I have yet heard are the MTM speakers I deployed in my HT. A stereo signal to the left and right speakers is simply startling. https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?43444-A-Compact-Home-Theater&p=442266&viewfull=1#post442266

I have heard a lot of speakers in numerous rooms over the years that were really excellent at imaging, but these little buggers are shockingly good at creating a holographic image. Perviously one of the best imaging systems I had heard was a DIY tractrix horn system in an extremely dead (almost fully anechoic) dedicated listening room.


Widget

[Robh3606]

Agreed, 100% :-)



It's probably me but you are losing me here. I wouldn't have put the UREIs in the good controlled directivity category like say the 708 monitors. Can't imagine the polar of a UREI would be as good as the 708. I'm not convinced it isn't the point source (and time alignment) that gives UREIs that coherence? I'd like to do a side by side between the 708 and the KEF LS50. I'm sure they'd sound different, but I'd imagine the KEF would be more coherent (focused). Maybe not though.

Here are the polars of the Urie 813 The caption on the figure 16 is incorrect says 4430 is 813 and as Widgets says a mess.

Rob :)

[rusty jefferson]

Again we are using words to describe a psychoacoustic phenomenon and that is tricky at best.

When I think of good imaging I am describing the disappearing act that a speaker can perform when creating a holographic sonic image in a stereo configuration....
Widget
Okay, we are using slightly different definitions of imaging. With these older speakers I refer to the image as what's captured between the 2 stereo loudspeakers. Your description of the disappearing act I would refer to as transparency, and then depending on where the image is, ideally behind and beyond the width of the speakers, soundstaging. UREIs and Altec 604s don't disappear. There will always be information audible from the loudspeakers themselves. They are not transparent for the reasons you've outlined, but they still image really well, listened to on axis. In my experience, speakers that have low diffraction cabinets, wide and matched dispersion at crossover in well treated rooms, have the best transparency and soundstage characteristics.


...In my experience the best imaging speakers I have yet heard are the MTM speakers I deployed in my HT. A stereo signal to the left and right speakers is simply startling. https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?43444-A-Compact-Home-Theater&p=442266&viewfull=1#post442266...
Widget
I remember those speakers. Come on, they're modern UREIs! :-D I'm sure they image beautifully. Here's my quote from that thread.

Barry, I just looked at the data sheet and it appears (but doesn't say) that the crossover point to the horn is pretty low, perhaps as low as 600hz. Down to 1khz even, diffraction isn't going to be an issue. Those 2 woofers are acting as one, and with the horn are acting as a concentric point source like the Altec 604 or UREI 801. There will be a little rippling of interference from the horn but it's low enough in frequency not to be a big deal. The drivers also appear to be physically time aligned and the advantages of that can't understated. If it was an MTM design that crossed over at a more typical 2khz-3khz range, the interference would be problematic.

[1audiohack]

Hi All;

Once again, the ancients have stolen our secrets.

These W2-2W8's are in the Community Loudspeaker catalog in 2007 and may be older than that. They feature canted woofers with carbon woofer cones and dust caps. They call the configuration Super Vee.

I am not knocking Widgets Meyer Sound speakers at all. I do think these are pretty cool.

Barry.

[thierry]

Pretty cool. Maybe they upgraded at some point? I think the music video to April Wine's "I Like to Rock" shows a lot of footage from the studio, but no monitors.Good to know, thank you for the response. I can't seem to find very much information about the 6500, but I've got my eye on them. How difficult was it to change the thermistor?Hi No 10mn not more it's easy....

[DerekTheGreat]

Hi No 10mn not more it's easy....

Hrmm. Sounds like something I could do. Now I just need to find an affordable unit or somebody local who is willing to let me test one for a while. I'm pretty content with the quad Crown set-up I've got going, but I'd like to collect nearly everything related to the 81xC series. :bouncy:

This unit looks really nice, but local pick-up only and down in Georgia. Dude claims to have several of 'em too....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/325934202551?itmmeta=01HQ8HEG54AF482X8JBK4A0EMZ&hash=item4be3313eb7:g:GKoAAOSwRwllgO-~&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4I4kxKVWr19R18d1e2iDmsXwFXLh3 uPdnEAcxrIn0ZMzTSGrGmQEHIX999guJF7zX5t2hu9IA9eBTI% 2FxLXMfygZN2XOkaxUUNG2QVzkWv6PmI3%2FbKeSxhNWtMR%2B Gz9Sq%2BXGbKxCkjGP8NW0kZde5cNlrkEN1LfmRUwyLVoS0S0u NnyfRm2IiH0XdJ7Zpg8t0lmGNM0E9fvDCWID3R80ZYWOrcKvh% 2FyFW0kQtp3NpII%2FbQ2v6dsKTO1VxWCkzl9Rx%2FVBcucZuV pzR3GFOEK4J1yzm7PHnZTjEBzuOHcrYmjzM%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8 yCupG6Yw

[hjames]

Apologies if I've posted this before - but a few years back I was watching a Tom Petty documentary and sat up at attention when I saw his home monitors were UREI 809s ...
So I took a picture of him on my TV, flanked by my UREI 809 front-main speakers (almost feel guilty using UREI monitors for TV/Movie monitors).

[Mr. Widget]

Nice... I also appreciate your Mystery Clock. ;)

Widget

[DerekTheGreat]

Post away!

I remember this though, what documentary?

We just upgraded the entertainment set-up downstairs. Bit of a bummer to learn the 811C I had lying in wait to be a center channel won't fit with these tables. Need ones half the size, but they didn't exist at the time we bought everything. But, I'm loving the 811C's as left & right! So don't feel ashamed about using your 809's. Perhaps an 809 might fit between the two stands where my 811C didn't..

[Mr. Widget]

Nice setup!
What are your UERIs sitting on.

Widget

[DerekTheGreat]

Thank you, sir!

They're sitting on subwoofers, M&K MX350THX's. I still do not like how the subwoofers' profiles are slimmer than the UREI's, not to mention their woofers are smaller. I'm getting used to it. In my head, a subwoofer's woofer must be larger than (or at least the same size) the main speaker's woofer... My ears disagree though, I'm very pleased with audio down there. I wonder if I'd even like a center channel. From what I remember when I last used one, I wasn't satisfied, especially when listening to concerts. Some stuff was mixed so bad that it was all sent to the center and so it sounded thin. Forcing the old receiver into stereo mode resulted in much better sound and so I eventually disabled the center altogether. This was before the XPL's or UREI's.

[DerekTheGreat]

I came across this article the other day:
https://www.musicdinosaur.com/blogs/news/vintage-audio-enthusiasts-unite-a-deep-dive-into-the-world-of-urei-gear

Talks about UREI gear and goes on to say, "...Many vintage UREI pieces have been used on recent hit records, such as Adele's 25 and Kendrick Lamar's DAMN." Makes me wonder what those pieces were.