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Stampants
01-24-2015, 10:44 AM
Hi everyone just scored an L112 in excellent working condition. I also have a Marantz 2252B currently with a tech and I was wondering if this receiver will be a good match for the 300watt rated L112?

I love the looks and warm sound of the 2252B and I plan to use them for moderate listening levels of around 85db with the l112. Read the specs and i cant help but think that the l112s it need some more reserve power for transients.

Currently running them with a quad402 on loan from my dad and I kinda miss the warmth I got from the marantz when it was running cheap warfedales.

I plan to hold on to the l112s because it was always my dream to own a late70s early eighties l series 3way.

i know I could just wait for the marantz and decide but i also want to know the experience of others.

worse comes to wore i can always use the preamp out of the 2252 to go through another power amp.

I also used a Sansui aud607g extra for it but i find this combo sibilant.

any suggestions?

thanks!

rdgrimes
01-24-2015, 11:01 AM
The Marantz is rated 52WPC, right?
I wouldn't generally recommend anything less than 200WPC for the L112. But in a smaller room less might get the job done. The L112 can handle virtually unlimited power, and the more you feed them the better they sound. Pushing them hard with a smaller amp might not yield good results.

SEAWOLF97
01-24-2015, 11:26 AM
That Marantz was plenty of power for the times....If the manufacture dates of the amp and speakers is in the same era, I would guess they are a pretty good match.

There are those who tell you that mega-power is needed for everything , I don't always subscribe to that one.

I'm currently running JBL-120Ti's on a 85wpc Denon with fine results.

Marantz even made a 2215 budget receiver that got good reviews. (15 wpc)

You already own the gear , give it a demo before deciding to add more ... you may be happy as-is

In '69 a Pioneer sx-9000 was my main power ... rated at 65wpc , sounded much more powerful. Ran VERY inefficient AR-3's with no problem.

I ran L-100's with a Marantz 2235 for a while and it was good. Always felt the amp output was understated and measuring has changed since then. Pretty sure that speaker sensitivity numbers are calculated differently now too.

BMWCCA
01-24-2015, 07:11 PM
I've owned my L112s since they were new and they have never been run on anything but an original Crown D150 amp rated about 75WPC. Always sounded fine to me. That's my bedroom system so room size is not huge and volume levels were never super high. Front end is a Mac C20 so the sound is very mellow.

Stampants
01-24-2015, 07:51 PM
Thanks for the replies! Will report back how I find the amp speaker combo when I get it back.

Anymore suggestions for a power amp or integrated that been known to make these babies sing?

Newb question: What is with Crown Amps and Jbl? Been hearing that this is a good match.

Crown amps suffer a bit of a bad brand image thing down here in the Philippines since there are a lot of counterfeit china made amps that shamelessly use the crown imprint.

BMWCCA
01-25-2015, 05:56 AM
Anymore suggestions for a power amp or integrated that been known to make these babies sing?

Newb question: What is with Crown Amps and Jbl? Been hearing that this is a good match.

Crown amps suffer a bit of a bad brand image thing down here in the Philippines since there are a lot of counterfeit china made amps that shamelessly use the crown imprint.

I've only used Crown amps with JBLs for something like 45-years so my experience may be limited. ;)

There are many different types of Crowns over many decades. Some were designed for Disk Jockey use where power may be more important than clarity. Some put cost over quality but they were always billed as budget alternatives to the other more expensive Crowns. Some folks don't like fans on their home amps. And then there may be copies since some new Crowns are made in China.

If you stick with the older D-series or (better yet, IMHO) the PS-Series you can't go wrong. I'm pretty sure the only ones they copy are the cheaper newer designs, not the heavy old stuff. I've owned a few different amps over that last few decades and played most of them with the same speakers, from McIntosh, to Fisher, and many Crowns. I currently have Soundcraftsmen, Adcom, Rotel, and Carver. I've not found a bad one but I always go back to the Crowns. I probably own over a dozen Crown amps including D45, D75A, D150, D150A-II, DC300A-II, PS200, PS400, and Studio Reference-II and over a dozen JBL speaker pairs including the L112. If you can find a nice Crown PS400 you'll have everything you need to make the L112 perform. Failing that, a PS200 will work fine for anything from normal to ear-bleed volume levels. You might save some bucks and get similar performance with the D150A-II or DC300A-II but I wouldn't go any older than those later D-series amps, personally.

Stampants
01-26-2015, 02:20 AM
The Marantz is rated 52WPC, right?
I wouldn't generally recommend anything less than 200WPC for the L112. But in a smaller room less might get the job done. The L112 can handle virtually unlimited power, and the more you feed them the better they sound. Pushing them hard with a smaller amp might not yield good results.

That 200wpc is what I hear that people generally reco too.... The Sansui Im running right now is around 90watts but its over 30 years old and I play mostly vinyl and I find it trebly even with the tone controls. Phonostage must also be the culprit since I mostly listen to vinyl. AB'd the two amps before (sansui and maratnz) the marantz just has this midbass hump that I always find pleasing, the sansui just really seems bright to me.

About to move to a bigger space so I might be able to turn the volume up hence the query if I need more power.


That Marantz was plenty of power for the times....If the manufacture dates of the amp and speakers is in the same era, I would guess they are a pretty good match.

There are those who tell you that mega-power is needed for everything , I don't always subscribe to that one.

I'm currently running JBL-120Ti's on a 85wpc Denon with fine results.

Marantz even made a 2215 budget receiver that got good reviews. (15 wpc)

You already own the gear , give it a demo before deciding to add more ... you may be happy as-is

In '69 a Pioneer sx-9000 was my main power ... rated at 65wpc , sounded much more powerful. Ran VERY inefficient AR-3's with no problem.

I ran L-100's with a Marantz 2235 for a while and it was good. Always felt the amp output was understated and measuring has changed since then. Pretty sure that speaker sensitivity numbers are calculated differently now too.

Vintage amps seems to put out more power than rated and my sansui and marantz just plain beats the crap out of my rotel and nad modern amps (sold them both and decided to stick it out with these vintage items even if servicing them is a bitch hehehehe). Dont mind sticking with them but I also want to know the limits of goodnes the l112s can provide with momentary high volume playing.

:-)

Stampants
01-26-2015, 02:24 AM
I've only used Crown amps with JBLs for something like 45-years so my experience may be limited. ;)

There are many different types of Crowns over many decades. Some were designed for Disk Jockey use where power may be more important than clarity. Some put cost over quality but they were always billed as budget alternatives to the other more expensive Crowns. Some folks don't like fans on their home amps. And then there may be copies since some new Crowns are made in China.

If you stick with the older D-series or (better yet, IMHO) the PS-Series you can't go wrong. I'm pretty sure the only ones they copy are the cheaper newer designs, not the heavy old stuff. I've owned a few different amps over that last few decades and played most of them with the same speakers, from McIntosh, to Fisher, and many Crowns. I currently have Soundcraftsmen, Adcom, Rotel, and Carver. I've not found a bad one but I always go back to the Crowns. I probably own over a dozen Crown amps including D45, D75A, D150, D150A-II, DC300A-II, PS200, PS400, and Studio Reference-II and over a dozen JBL speaker pairs including the L112. If you can find a nice Crown PS400 you'll have everything you need to make the L112 perform. Failing that, a PS200 will work fine for anything from normal to ear-bleed volume levels. You might save some bucks and get similar performance with the D150A-II or DC300A-II but I wouldn't go any older than those later D-series amps, personally.

Someone's selling an old DC300a but he's asking $400 for it. Dunno if its worth that match since Ill probably be spending to have someone refurbish it and check for any damage it might inflict on speakers. Ill hunt more for these amps as they usually dont pay much attention to crown here outside of pro PA audio.

BMWCCA
01-26-2015, 04:11 PM
The Crown PS400 is around 200WPC and a much nicer amp than the early DC300 or even the later DC300A-II. The improvements are small but meaningful. Also, even the oldest of the PS400s are decades newer than a DC300.

Stampants
01-26-2015, 09:16 PM
The Crown PS400 is around 200WPC and a much nicer amp than the early DC300 or even the later DC300A-II. The improvements are small but meaningful. Also, even the oldest of the PS400s are decades newer than a DC300.

Thanks for the tip!

Noticed you said in the above post that you've also tried Adcom amps and Carver Amps.

There's an ADCOM GFA555mk2 and a Carver m400 Cube up for sale in my area. Are they worth it? Or should I just wait out an available crown ps400?

Appreciate the help bro!

:-)

SEAWOLF97
01-26-2015, 10:26 PM
Thanks for the tip!

Noticed you said in the above post that you've also tried Adcom amps and Carver Amps.

There's an ADCOM GFA555mk2 and a Carver m400 Cube up for sale in my area. Are they worth it? Or should I just wait out an available crown ps400?

Appreciate the help bro!

:-)

I have an Adcom GFA555 mk1 and love it ... generally accepted as a Nelson Pass design. 200wpc in 8 ohm/325 for 4 ohm.

IMHO&E old Carver gear has lots of issues ..some small, some not so ..

Stampants
01-27-2015, 04:48 AM
I have an Adcom GFA555 mk1 and love it ... generally accepted as a Nelson Pass design. 200wpc in 8 ohm/325 for 4 ohm.

IMHO&E old Carver gear has lots of issues ..some small, some not so ..

Thanks for the heads up! Are the reports of the GFA 555 having no speaker protection circuit greatly exaggerated?

BMWCCA
01-27-2015, 05:28 AM
Thanks for the tip!

Noticed you said in the above post that you've also tried Adcom amps and Carver Amps.

There's an ADCOM GFA555mk2 and a Carver m400 Cube up for sale in my area. Are they worth it? Or should I just wait out an available crown ps400?

I have a Carver PM 1.5 that has an awful reputation among sound guys but sounds fine to me driving my 4412As. Haven't had it long and haven't tried all 450-watts of it yet, either. I have many friends whose opinions I value that have owned Adcoms and still do. I have Soundcraftsmen Pro-Power-Four amps that sound great but I just liked the Crown better. There are those who will tell you an amp makes no difference in the sound. I'm surprised Seawolf hasn't yet sung the praises of the venerable BGW amps. On my 4345s I went from Crown D150A-II and DC300A-II to PS200 and PS400 and liked the change. When comparing most amps I use a pair of L7s that love power and can differentiate between low-end performance characteristic.

I guess my point is that, given equal power, there may not be much difference between amps in terms of what will make your system sound good to you. Adcoms are quite common around here. Some prefer the series-one over the MK2 series. If you can afford to, buy one and try it. If you can, buy something else and compare. If you find no difference, or one better than the other, sell the loser and move on. The beauty of vintage equipment is that someone will always take them over from you and the most you can ever lose is the pittance you paid in the first place. You could even realize a profit from your experience. :dont-know:

Stampants
01-27-2015, 07:16 AM
I have a Carver PM 1.5 that has an awful reputation among sound guys but sounds fine to me driving my 4412As. Haven't had it long and haven't tried all 450-watts of it yet, either. I have many friends whose opinions I value that have owned Adcoms and still do. I have Soundcraftsmen Pro-Power-Four amps that sound great but I just liked the Crown better. There are those who will tell you an amp makes no difference in the sound. I'm surprised Seawolf hasn't yet sung the praises of the venerable BGW amps. On my 4345s I went from Crown D150A-II and DC300A-II to PS200 and PS400 and liked the change. When comparing most amps I use a pair of L7s that love power and can differentiate between low-end performance characteristic.

I guess my point is that, given equal power, there may not be much difference between amps in terms of what will make your system sound good to you. Adcoms are quite common around here. Some prefer the series-one over the MK2 series. If you can afford to, buy one and try it. If you can, buy something else and compare. If you find no difference, or one better than the other, sell the loser and move on. The beauty of vintage equipment is that someone will always take them over from you and the most you can ever lose is the pittance you paid in the first place. You could even realize a profit from your experience. :dont-know:

Again, thanks for the time to reply to my queries. Much appreciated. Guess I'll have to pull the trigger on one already, hahahaha.

SEAWOLF97
01-27-2015, 08:49 AM
I have a Carver PM 1.5 that has an awful reputation among sound guys but sounds fine to me driving my 4412As. Haven't had it long and haven't tried all 450-watts of it yet, either. I have many friends whose opinions I value that have owned Adcoms and still do.

I've gone thru Carver receivers, CD players , preamps ..etc , innovative and well built , but problems have always popped up with each piece ... from odd things like the CD players Ghost Operation (turning itself on & back off at night) to pop & burn on receivers main board ..etc.

Adcom amps are sometimes misunderstood .. a channel disappears ..rear fuses look OK (not realizing that each rail has 2 fuses on it) ..just gotta remove those 17 top bolts to replace them.

I also like Denon. has always been trouble free and very quiet amps.

For some reason, Crown gear is scarce out here :dont-know:

BMWCCA
01-27-2015, 03:18 PM
For some reason, Crown gear is scarce out here :dont-know:

Must be that under-the-radar Mid-West sound thing!


My neighborhood hi-fi store when I was growing up in St. Louis sold McIntosh and Crown. I even have the report for my original Crown D150 when they tested it at the McIntosh Clinic along with my Mac C20. They kept the C20 overnight to pretty much completely rebuild it to get it to spec and this was back in the late '60s. I recall the first thing they did before running the test on any Mac product was to toss all the tubes and replace them with new ones!

The Crown was the cleanest amp they tested that day, and it beat its own specs including power output. :applaud:

tinpan
01-30-2015, 07:22 AM
In the Carver line you want to stay away from the Cube and the smaller amps like the TFM 15. The PM line BWMCCA is referring to is the professional line which some people really like and some think it has a little dry sound. I think a lot of that has to do with the speakers they are using.

Amps to look at from Carver are the TFM 35, TFM 45 and if you can find one a TFM 55 or TFM 75. Since they are 20 years old it's pretty advisable to have them serviced. There are a couple really good shops I can suggest. It usually costs around $300 to have them recapped and brought back to spec. Thats's one of the reasons most people don't look at the smaller TFM series and the cube, it's just not worth putting that kind of money into those. They other ones, after service are keepers and should be good for another 20 years or so.

Another Carver line I have and like are the Sunfire amps. They make a 300 WPC x 2 and a 600 x 2. Same deal, see if they've been serviced, if not I would budget getting them serviced. These are wonderful amps and have a great sound. I had the 600 x 2 and I still have my 400 x 5 channel. They also pop up on ebay for sale serviced and ready to go from someone I hang out with on the Craver forum.

BMWCCA
01-30-2015, 05:45 PM
. . . the Craver forum.

I think we all qualify for that group! :D

tinpan
01-31-2015, 06:12 AM
That is definitely us

SEAWOLF97
01-31-2015, 09:14 AM
I'm surprised Seawolf hasn't yet sung the praises of the venerable BGW amps.

Prolly because the ones that I have experience with are really in a different category.

At 52 pounds ....375wpc (8ohm) and 425wpc (4ohm) , it really doesn't fit with the others
mentioned in this thread and would be overkill for bookshelf speakers.

Stampants
01-31-2015, 06:12 PM
Must be that under-the-radar Mid-West sound thing!


My neighborhood hi-fi store when I was growing up in St. Louis sold McIntosh and Crown. I even have the report for my original Crown D150 when they tested it at the McIntosh Clinic along with my Mac C20. They kept the C20 overnight to pretty much completely rebuild it to get it to spec and this was back in the late '60s. I recall the first thing they did before running the test on any Mac product was to toss all the tubes and replace them with new ones!

The Crown was the cleanest amp they tested that day, and it beat its own specs including power output. :applaud:

Gonna hunt for Crown now! :bouncy:

Stampants
02-01-2015, 04:25 AM
How much should I shell out for a Crown DC300a or a PS Series??

Thanks!

:-)

SEAWOLF97
02-01-2015, 08:43 AM
Are you on 110v or 220 ?

Mr. Widget
02-01-2015, 09:01 AM
Gonna hunt for Crown now! :bouncy:If you really will be listening at 85dB and you are not in a huge room, I doubt there will be much sonic difference between an in-spec Marantz 2252B and an in-spec Crown DC or PS Series amp.

You'll make a much larger improvement by looking into room treatments or upgrading your source... whatever source you use.


Widget

BMWCCA
02-01-2015, 09:05 AM
Personally, I wouldn't look for anything older than the DC300A-II. I still prefer the PS-400 over the DC300A-II. I would think $400 should buy you the nicest PS400 available in the USA. Where you are, who knows what they bring. :dont-know:

antoninus9
03-24-2015, 10:40 AM
The Marantz is rated 52WPC, right?
I wouldn't generally recommend anything less than 200WPC for the L112. But in a smaller room less might get the job done. The L112 can handle virtually unlimited power, and the more you feed them the better they sound. Pushing them hard with a smaller amp might not yield good results.

I agree. The L112 works fairly well with 100 WPC, but starts to shine with 200+ WPC. Adding a sub for low frequency reinforcement can be breathtaking.

Stampants
04-22-2015, 12:08 AM
I agree. The L112 works fairly well with 100 WPC, but starts to shine with 200+ WPC. Adding a sub for low frequency reinforcement can be breathtaking.

Tried The JBL L112s with the Marantz Amp and I quite like the combo! The 2252B is warmer than my Sansuis.

But I cant help wondering about the general consensus in this thread that the JBL 112s shine at the 200watt level.

Would you mind explaining how they "shine" more at the 200watt level.

Wouldnt mind a subjective description to aid my imagination before I test it out for myself.

Tested the preamp section of the Marantz 2252B with a 100watt Quad amp and detected a subtle more "slam" in the kick drums at the 75 to 85db spl level on my android phone with IMM6.

Wondering what a 200watt or up power can give me while using the 2252b as a preamp at the 75 to 85db level.

Content with what I have but my itchy brain wants to scratch this whole 200watt power up thing purely to see if I like it and to bring this wonderful speaker to its full potential.

Thanks for the comments guys. Cant believe that a 35 year old speaker floats my boat! This beats out the BandWs my dad has!

Stampants
04-22-2015, 12:12 AM
Oh! A speaker tech wants me to replace some caps in the x over to further bring out the speakers.

Can you point me in the right direction if I go this route or is it better to leave it alone?

The tech is saying that a cap and xover overhaul maintenance can bring another dimension to my listening experience.

Staying away from his Mundorf replacement reco though. Too pricey for me.

Thanks again!

Stampants
04-22-2015, 12:14 AM
Plus... Im thinking of placing the speakers sideways because of WAF is this detrimental?

Currently have it raised up upright about 6inches from the floor.

BMWCCA
04-22-2015, 05:19 AM
It has already been mentioned a couple of times that at your listening level and in a medium-to-small room there would probably be little difference. Again, 75wpc has worked just fine for me in a bedroom for over thirty years. Unlike their later pro-version 4412/A, the L112 wasn't designed for horizontal orientation. No reason they won't work but the relationship between the height of the 044 and the listener's ears is always important in mid-field use. If it's an issue for you, you can always try tilting them a bit.

I'd go with what you have and play with position and room issues. I've always found on the better JBLs that attempts at improving the performance through substitution of non-stock components does not generally create improvement. If you're messing with crossover caps and trying to save money, you might want to modify one without removing your ability to return it to stock, and then compare it to the stock system and let your ears tell you if it was money well spent—or perhaps even a step backwards. Remember, too, that your ears are funny instruments and so is your brain. You might wish for any improvement enough to find one that doesn't exist. And listening to one voicing over time may color your ability to make an objective observation in any A—B comparison. Give your ears time to adjust before you switch sound sources.

Of course all this is just my opinion and I'm basically a Luddite, don't own any L100s that might benefit from Internet pros who seek to change their voice, and love most of my dozen-or-so JBLs for what they are and actually revel in their differences. (No Harman-brand pun intended . . . well, maybe!)

Stampants
04-22-2015, 06:18 AM
It has already been mentioned a couple of times that at your listening level and in a medium-to-small room there would probably be little difference. Again, 75wpc has worked just fine for me in a bedroom for over thirty years. Unlike their later pro-version 4412/A, the L112 wasn't designed for horizontal orientation. No reason they won't work but the relationship between the height of the 044 and the listener's ears is always important in mid-field use. If it's an issue for you, you can always try tilting them a bit.

I'd go with what you have and play with position and room issues. I've always found on the better JBLs that attempts at improving the performance through substitution of non-stock components does not generally create improvement. If you're messing with crossover caps and trying to save money, you might want to modify one without removing your ability to return it to stock, and then compare it to the stock system and let your ears tell you if it was money well spent—or perhaps even a step backwards. Remember, too, that your ears are funny instruments and so is your brain. You might wish for any improvement enough to find one that doesn't exist. And listening to one voicing over time may color your ability to make an objective observation in any A—B comparison. Give your ears time to adjust before you switch sound sources.

Of course all this is just my opinion and I'm basically a Luddite, don't own any L100s that might benefit from Internet pros who seek to change their voice, and love most of my dozen-or-so JBLs for what they are and actually revel in their differences. (No Harman-brand pun intended . . . well, maybe!)

Thanks for the honest reply!

What can I say, just typed excitedly upon hooking up my Marantz and getting a really nice sound triggered my mind into thinking up possibilities to further decimate my wallet. :blink:

Was just responding to some of the posters who seem to think that they'll bloom at 200wpc.

Again gear lust might have overridden common sense as vintage gear hunting seems to be an addictive hobby!

About the sideways thing, I actually tried it awhile ago and the image seemed disjointed so I wont be barking up that tree anymore.

As for the cap upgrade I might not have been very clear about what the local tech wanted to do, which is to basically just replace the existing caps value for value and to clean the pots.

In short he wants to bring the crossover back to spec, but IF I WANTED he can also do a complete upgrade with the MUNDORF caps.

So do you guys think I should do a recap or just leave it be?

*edit* Did a little searching and am currently reading through this thread which is helpful
( http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?15342-JBL-L112-Crossover-Confusion )

Again thanks for indulging me!

dezmond
04-22-2015, 08:53 AM
The owners manual does show a horizontal placement option.

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/284526/Jbl-L112.html?page=4#manual

BMWCCA
04-22-2015, 07:35 PM
The owners manual does show a horizontal placement option.

The noted "if necessary" does not seem like a strong recommendation! ;)

Stampants
04-25-2015, 10:59 AM
The noted "if necessary" does not seem like a strong recommendation! ;)

Tried it but had better sound gains by raising it up using stools in the upright position!