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Toro Italo
01-07-2015, 05:50 PM
Hello everyone! :)

For some time I follow with interest the forum that has inspired me with the realization of my beloved 4344 MkII clone (entirely built of aluminum).


At the moment, my 4344 are bi-amplified. Bi-amping brought significant improvements in terms of acoustic performance compared to the mono-amplification.


I was wondering if any of you had experienced the tri or quad amplifier on 4344. In the event, I would like to know if I can expect a further improved performance.

In other words, spending money on the adaptation of the system then justify the acoustic result? :blink:

Thanks a lot for your support which is very appreciated.

Greetings from Italy,

Toro

BMWCCA
01-07-2015, 10:48 PM
For some time I follow with interest the forum that has inspired me with the realization of my beloved 4344 MkII clone (entirely built of aluminum).

I'm sure many here would love to see photos of your creation.

Welcome to the forum!

Toro Italo
01-08-2015, 07:20 AM
Hi BMWCCA.

Here below you can find some pictures of the customized 4344:

6405764058640596406064061


The cabinets are completely built with 6082 Anticorodal Aluminum plates, 20mm thick, except the front panel which is 30mm.

They are HEAVY and SOLID and practically do not resonate :)

I can send more photos if they are of interest.

Thanks,

Toro

hjames
01-08-2015, 08:01 AM
WOW!! That's amazing work - thanks for sharing!
Glad you have a new thread for talking about this system!




Hi BMWCCA.

Here below you can find some pictures of the customized 4344:

6405764058640596406064061


The cabinets are completely built with 6082 Anticorodal Aluminum plates, 20mm thick, except the front panel which is 30mm.

They are HEAVY and SOLID and practically do not resonate :)

I can send more photos if they are of interest.

Thanks,

Toro

pos
01-08-2015, 08:35 AM
Impressive indeed!

It looks like Guido build the networks: http://behringer-electric.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=79&Itemid=203

Toro Italo
01-08-2015, 10:40 AM
Thank you all! I assure you that 4344 is even better when seen live.


I confirm that the passive crossovers were made by Guido, which I entrusted also reconing of 2235 and 2122. Guido is a true professional and did a great job. Also he continues to support me (and bear me...) with my crazy and exotic ideas ;).

BTW, have some of you triamped the 4344/4345?

Thanks again,

Mirko aka Toro

Toro Italo
01-08-2015, 10:49 AM
A couple of additional pics...

64065

64066

4313B
01-08-2015, 12:00 PM
Wow! :)

macaroonie
01-08-2015, 02:13 PM
Exceptional workmanship and they look great. Please post as many pics as you can provide.
I'm very interested in the machining if you gave any pics of that process also unfinished components.

Thanks Mac

Toro Italo
01-08-2015, 04:46 PM
Thank you Mac.

Here below you can see additional details of the assembling:

64072

64073

64074

64075

64076


I should have some photos of the milling phase, performed on two different centers (Yasda and Okuma). I will verify.

Best regards,

Mirko

macaroonie
01-09-2015, 06:00 AM
Thanks Mirko , I guess you work in that industry ? Nice to have such tools at you disposal :)

rusty jefferson
01-09-2015, 08:49 AM
Wow! I've seen aluminum baffles before, but never anything like this. Amazing attention to detail. Congratulations.

Toro Italo
01-09-2015, 09:18 AM
Thank you Rusty!

In fact, nothing was left to chance. I designed 3D models and machining was carried out with the utmost precision and attention to detail.

Best regards,

Mirko

JeffW
01-09-2015, 09:19 AM
You should consider having the thread moved to the DIY section, it's sort of buried down here in Electronic Crossovers.

And amazing work on these, just stunning pieces.

Toro Italo
01-09-2015, 09:23 AM
Thanks Mirko , I guess you work in that industry ? Nice to have such tools at you disposal :)


Hi Mac.

My work is another, but being a mechanical engineer I have a great passion for the metal and precision machining. BTW my brother in law is the owner of a company that carries out machining with CNC machines, so it was not hard... ;):D

Best regards,

Mirko

Toro Italo
01-09-2015, 09:29 AM
You should consider having the thread moved to the DIY section, it's sort of buried down here in Electronic Crossovers.

And amazing work on these, just stunning pieces.


Thank you JeffW!

If admins decide to move the thread in DIY section, for me it's obviously ok.

Best regards,

Mirko

JeffW
01-09-2015, 12:24 PM
Send a Private Message to Mr Widget if you would like the thread moved. It's fine where it is, but more people might get to enjoy your creations if in DIY

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?3-Mr-Widget

Mr. Widget
01-09-2015, 12:30 PM
I just discovered this amazing DIY project and moved the thread to the appropriate area.

Congratulations on a beautiful project!


Widget

Space is the...
01-09-2015, 12:38 PM
Absolutely brilliant Mirko! Love them :applaud:

Is the darker parts of the cabinet painted or anodized?

JeffW
01-09-2015, 01:38 PM
Absolutely brilliant Mirko! Love them :applaud:

Is the darker parts of the cabinet painted or anodized?

Even the front baffle appears to have some treatment.

Toro Italo
01-09-2015, 03:45 PM
Good evening gents!

First of all, thanks to JeffW for the suggestion and to Mr. Widget for having moved the thread in the correct section.

Thanks also to Space is the... for his comments.

The aluminum plates were first micro-sandblasted and then chemically nickel plated.

Unfortunately the result did not meet my expectations (you can see the effect in the interior of the cabinets) :crying:. In any case this treatment makes the surface very hard and resistant.

So I decided for a classical liquid coating (epoxy metallic painting and successively transparent two-component painting).

Looking closely, the finish is spectacular (I also carefully selected the paint shop...).

I'll post some pics of a special aluminum 18" subwoofer box I am actually working on :).

Best regards,

Mirko

Toro Italo
01-09-2015, 03:54 PM
Ok, the BASS^3 looks a bit like a washing machine (and also the dimensions, in effect...) but it is not yet finished ;):

64095

64096

64097

64098

64099

1audiohack
01-09-2015, 08:51 PM
Here is a man after my own heart! I love metals and machining.

This is one of the coolest projects I have seen in a very long time!

It appears the dazzle of this project has obscured your original question.

I have not had 4344's but have gone as far as five way full active on my own systems. Passive or active it takes tools, skill and experience to really integrate a system as complex as yours really well. Is it worth the effort? In my opinion? Absolutely.

What are you thinking?

All the best,
Barry.

Space is the...
01-10-2015, 02:36 AM
BTW my brother in law is the owner of a company that carries out machining with CNC machines, so it was not hard... ;):D

Best regards,

Mirko

You brother in law doesn't have a unmarried sister by any chance? Ha!

The paint finish is fantastic, cant wait to see the finished sub!

Toro Italo
01-10-2015, 09:20 AM
Here is a man after my own heart! I love metals and machining.

This is one of the coolest projects I have seen in a very long time!

It appears the dazzle of this project has obscured your original question.

I have not had 4344's but have gone as far as five way full active on my own systems. Passive or active it takes tools, skill and experience to really integrate a system as complex as yours really well. Is it worth the effort? In my opinion? Absolutely.

What are you thinking?

All the best,
Barry.

Hi Barry.

Thank you very much for the appreciation! :)

As for the multi-amplification, I'm seriously considering going in "all active". I'm currently using a fantastic electronic crossover Pass Labs XVR-1, but I intend to soon add a supplementary main unit to set at least an active 3-way.

At first I would just set cutoff frequencies identical to the original (290Hz, 1.3KHz, 10KHz), working only on the levels. Afterwards I could experience slightly different cutoff frequencies (being careful not to damage especially tweeters and super tweeters).

Besides, I just can not put the word "end" of this project ... since it is giving me too much satisfactions ... :applaud:

Best regards,

Mirko

Toro Italo
01-10-2015, 09:24 AM
You brother in law doesn't have a unmarried sister by any chance? Ha!

The paint finish is fantastic, cant wait to see the finished sub!

Ok, I will ask my sister in law if she is interested in a handsome English guy ... ;):D

The sub is under painting, you will not have to wait long! :bouncy:

Ciao,

Mirko

Chas
01-10-2015, 04:42 PM
OMG. I am lost for words, how gorgeous your realisation is.:applaud::applaud:

danvprod
01-10-2015, 05:00 PM
Seriously impressive work. These are so beautiful.

Goldjazz
01-10-2015, 05:54 PM
Toro, as a Design Engineer and 4343 owner I can really appreciate this. Well done! This is stunning work. Great to see such passion and attention to detail. Thank you for sharing.

Toro Italo
01-11-2015, 06:16 AM
OMG. I am lost for words, how gorgeous your realisation is.:applaud::applaud:


Thank You! I'm glad you like my work! :)

Toro Italo
01-11-2015, 06:17 AM
Seriously impressive work. These are so beautiful.


Thanks a lot! :dancin:

Toro Italo
01-11-2015, 06:18 AM
Toro, as a Design Engineer and 4343 owner I can really appreciate this. Well done! This is stunning work. Great to see such passion and attention to detail. Thank you for sharing.

Thank you Goldjazz, I really appreciate your comments! :hurray:

macaroonie
01-11-2015, 06:39 AM
Hi Mirco , I see from your picture that you have an interest in guitars.

Have a look at this !! ....

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/other-t-types-partscasters/401227-opinions-aluminium-guitars.html

http://youtu.be/9Hip2YiQCGs


If you cannot see the pics it is worth registering as a member.

Toro Italo
01-11-2015, 09:11 AM
Have a look at this !! ....



Hi Mac.

Wow, very impressive job.

I have already mentioned the work to my luthier friend who builds guitars. An aluminum Telecaster is a dream that could come true! :rockon1:


Thanks for the tip!


Take care,


Mirko

Fort Knox
01-11-2015, 10:26 AM
Hello everyone! :)

For some time I follow with interest the forum that has inspired me with the realization of my beloved 4344 MkII clone (entirely built of aluminum).


At the moment, my 4344 are bi-amplified. Bi-amping brought significant improvements in terms of acoustic performance compared to the mono-amplification.


I was wondering if any of you had experienced the tri or quad amplifier on 4344. In the event, I would like to know if I can expect a further improved performance.

In other words, spending money on the adaptation of the system then justify the acoustic result? :blink:

Thanks a lot for your support which is very appreciated.

Greetings from Italy,

Toro


Tri-amp exp. w/any sp. is a fun/powerful but daunting experience ...in the end you'll be glad
to get back a mono system ,...so you can return to sanity...

martin2395
01-11-2015, 11:22 AM
Ha, these look familiar!
i saw them on Guido Behringer's website a couple of days ago.

They are amazing but the bars on the units remind me of those el-cheapo car boomboxes:
http://nl.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=jj0k74&s=7

p.s
How much do they weight? :D

Toro Italo
01-11-2015, 04:46 PM
Tri-amp exp. w/any sp. is a fun/powerful but daunting experience ...in the end you'll be glad
to get back a mono system ,...so you can return to sanity...

The transition from mono-amplification to the bi-amplification has greatly improved the overall performance of the system. The calibration has not required special efforts and it was not frustrating. I suppose that "all active" mode requires much more effort, but it's a very stimulating challenge ...

Toro Italo
01-11-2015, 04:59 PM
Ha, these look familiar!
i saw them on Guido Behringer's website a couple of days ago.

They are amazing but the bars on the units remind me of those el-cheapo car boomboxes:
http://nl.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=jj0k74&s=7

p.s
How much do they weight? :D


Hi Martin.

As I said earlier, Guido realized my passive crossover and he has also re-coned my woofers and midranges.

The protections of the speakers actually resemble those used in the hifi car, but I chose the bars to give the cabinet a note of even greater strength.

The weight of each cabinet, without accessories, speakers, cables, ..., is about 190 Kg :)

audiomagnate
01-11-2015, 05:11 PM
Holy crap!!!Those are amazing!

Toro Italo
01-11-2015, 05:16 PM
Holy crap!!!Those are amazing!

Thank you! :D

JeffW
01-14-2015, 05:58 PM
Did you ever say what 18" driver for the subs?

Toro Italo
01-15-2015, 04:16 PM
Did you ever say what 18" driver for the subs?

Hi JeffW.

It's the Aurasound NS18-992-4A.

Here below you can find some specs:

64217




and some pics:




64218

64219

I hope it will sounds as good as the simulation promises ...

Fort Knox
01-15-2015, 05:27 PM
The transition from mono-amplification to the bi-amplification has greatly improved the overall performance of the system. The calibration has not required special efforts and it was not frustrating. I suppose that "all active" mode requires much more effort, but it's a very stimulating challenge ...

I don't know what kind of calibration your talking about...my system was crude ..
the 3 way elect, x-over seamed to have the mid/high freqs trying to dominate ea other..
and it was noisy and req'd maintenance on the connections gnds etc. (pro stuff mixed in)
and above all ...the thing was just not linear.w/testy music...it lost its delicate touch..FK

Toro Italo
01-15-2015, 05:51 PM
I don't know what kind of calibration your talking about...my system was crude ..
the 3 way elect, x-over seamed to have the mid/high freqs trying to dominate ea other..
and it was noisy and req'd maintenance on the connections gnds etc. (pro stuff mixed in)
and above all ...the thing was just not linear.w/testy music...it lost its delicate touch..FK



Thank you for your contribution FK.


Which 3 way electronic crossover have you had in your system? And which amplifiers?


I believe the end result largely depends on the goodness of the crossover.

Fort Knox
01-16-2015, 03:49 AM
Thank you for your contribution FK.


Which 3 way electronic crossover have you had in your system? And which amplifiers?


I believe the end result largely depends on the goodness of the crossover.

Samson 3/4 way x-over, QSE bass amps, Peavey tubes for mid/high stuff

Mannermusic
01-16-2015, 05:57 AM
I don't know what kind of calibration your talking about...my system was crude ..
the 3 way elect, x-over seamed to have the mid/high freqs trying to dominate ea other..
and it was noisy and req'd maintenance on the connections gnds etc. (pro stuff mixed in)
and above all ...the thing was just not linear.w/testy music...it lost its delicate touch..FK

Yes, agree with all the above including mixing pro (balanced) and home hi fi (unbalanced) gear. It just gets crazy if simple home music is your primary focus. However, the "stimulating challenge" cannot be denied! It's a hobby, afterall - just depends on what blows your dress up. But, when I was doing that, I found that a tri-amp with passive between the mid-bass and treble horn worked best. Used the old Luxman 2003 tube crossover. Tried the old JBL MA3 briefly which sounded like a commercial PA system - talk about loss of delicate touch! As above, connections and intermittent noise an on-going "challenge." But, it seems we all have to go through one of these Big Projects at least once!:blink:

Toro Italo
01-16-2015, 09:02 AM
Yes, agree with all the above including mixing pro (balanced) and home hi fi (unbalanced) gear. It just gets crazy if simple home music is your primary focus. However, the "stimulating challenge" cannot be denied! It's a hobby, afterall - just depends on what blows your dress up. But, when I was doing that, I found that a tri-amp with passive between the mid-bass and treble horn worked best. Used the old Luxman 2003 tube crossover. Tried the old JBL MA3 briefly which sounded like a commercial PA system - talk about loss of delicate touch! As above, connections and intermittent noise an on-going "challenge." But, it seems we all have to go through one of these Big Projects at least once!:blink:

At the moment I am using a fully balanced set up with a Pass Labs XVR-1 crossover. No noise of any kind, even with high gains.

Anyway your negative experiences are discouraging me a little. But I'll have to do a try anyway! :D;)

martin2395
01-16-2015, 09:35 AM
Yes, those cheapo crossovers make your high end JBL's sound like a PA system, been there done that.

Mannermusic
01-16-2015, 10:10 AM
At the moment I am using a fully balanced set up with a Pass Labs XVR-1 crossover. No noise of any kind, even with high gains.

Anyway your negative experiences are discouraging me a little. But I'll have to do a try anyway! :D;)

There is some nice stuff out there these days - Nelson Pass is a brilliant guy - that was simply not available in previous decades - hey, I'm getting old! But, it can be done. When my system was full up it sounded amazing. Big jazz band music simply blew your socks off and sounded "correct." As if in the room. Awe inspiring - brilliant, powerful brass with weight. It was just difficult to keep everything 100% as the system aged. The whole front end was tubes, ran hot, never quite knew the status of everything involved. An on-going engineering project. I think today's connectors/materials along with fully balanced gear, etc., is a major step forward. So, we need you to take the next step for us! Carry on! Mike

Toro Italo
01-16-2015, 03:50 PM
There is some nice stuff out there these days - Nelson Pass is a brilliant guy - that was simply not available in previous decades - hey, I'm getting old! But, it can be done. When my system was full up it sounded amazing. Big jazz band music simply blew your socks off and sounded "correct." As if in the room. Awe inspiring - brilliant, powerful brass with weight. It was just difficult to keep everything 100% as the system aged. The whole front end was tubes, ran hot, never quite knew the status of everything involved. An on-going engineering project. I think today's connectors/materials along with fully balanced gear, etc., is a major step forward. So, we need you to take the next step for us! Carry on! Mike


Thank you Mike!

In the past, I tried several digital crossovers. In my experience, the dual analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog conversion seriously compromises the quality of the sound.

This is the reason I am using a discrete electronic crossover. Neutrality and transparency are outstanding, although the cost of a XVR is unfortunately very high.

The amplification is completely solid state and this helps to maintain a very low noise level.

I will keep you informed about upcoming tests.

Best regards,

Mirko

Ian Mackenzie
01-17-2015, 02:33 PM
The First Watt B4 active crossover is excellent.

Toro Italo
01-17-2015, 03:04 PM
The First Watt B4 active crossover is excellent.


I totally agree, the B4 is a very good discrete crossover, especially the latest version recently released by Nelson Pass.

DingDing
01-20-2015, 10:20 PM
I salute you!

Your project is awesome, you're extremely lucky to have the capabilities and knowledge to realize that.

Just the materials alone must have cost a small fortune, but I bet it's worth it now that you have the most solid 4344 in the infinite universe(!) That's quite the legacy :D

Toro Italo
01-21-2015, 01:03 AM
I salute you!

Your project is awesome, you're extremely lucky to have the capabilities and knowledge to realize that.

Just the materials alone must have cost a small fortune, but I bet it's worth it now that you have the most solid 4344 in the infinite universe(!) That's quite the legacy :D

Hi DingDing!

Thank you for your comment.

Actually, I believe that these 4344 are more resistant of several modern strong-boxes... ;)

Dave M
01-22-2015, 07:13 AM
I'm very impressed. I have heard full aluminum cabinet speakers only one time, Goldmund, which sounded great but $100,000. Absolutely no resonance when I tapped the cabinet. In my book, heavier speakers are better.

Toro Italo
01-22-2015, 09:44 AM
I'm very impressed. I have heard full aluminum cabinet speakers only one time, Goldmund, which sounded great but $100,000. Absolutely no resonance when I tapped the cabinet. In my book, heavier speakers are better.


Hi Dave M.

The idea of building the aluminum cabinet is born from the desire to place the drivers in a container that was virtually devoid of resonance.


The result, in my opinion, is spectacular: the sound is natural and free of emphasis. The 4344 are excellent speakers, my intention was to bring them to the next level.

I hope I succeeded! :yes:

Toro Italo
01-26-2015, 05:22 PM
The paint finish is fantastic, cant wait to see the finished sub!


Ok, here below you can see some pics on the assembly phase of the BASS^3 subwoofer. Also in this case, it is built with 6082 Anticorodal Aluminum plates, 20mm thick, except the front panel which is 30mm:


64359


64360


64361


64362


64363



In the next days I'll post additional pics of the progress :)

JeffW
01-26-2015, 06:42 PM
Looks like an XP-20 lurking in the background.

Toro Italo
01-27-2015, 06:04 AM
Looks like an XP-20 lurking in the background.

Hi JeffW.

Yes, it is an XP-20 :yes:

Toro Italo
01-28-2015, 05:03 PM
The subwoofer is finished.

Unfortunately I can not try it (here it's 2 am ...), but in the next few days I will test it properly.

Here are some photos:


64375


64376


64377

Toro Italo
01-28-2016, 02:17 AM
Good morning forumers!

I just wanted to give an update on the current state of the system.


Currently, the 4344 is triamped (the only passive crossover is between tweeter and super-tweeter).


I'm using two PASS XVR-1 crossover . In ultra-low range I'm using the homebuilt subwoofer mentioned in previous pictures.


The system sounds outstanding. The sense of realism is shocking.

The soundstage is very wide and deep, musical instruments found their stable place on the stage and they have a materiality previously unknown.


It was not easy to fine adjust (you can act on a huge number of variables), but the result was worth all the effort.

Next step: a phono!!! :)

Best regards,

Mirko


69579

srm51555
01-28-2016, 05:48 AM
Amazing work Mirko. Thank you for sharing.

Mannermusic
01-28-2016, 06:45 AM
Hello Mirko!

Congrats - I'd say you have taken tri-amp to the "next level." I appreciate your comment re the "huge number of variables." So often folks here are hypnotized by the latest exotic gear when the truth is the "secret" is hours, months, years of hard work to optimize the system - engineering development/patience. No magic! Your effort to eliminate all the sources of noise is key. In the old days this was THE major problem with these complex systems. The Pass X-overs are a key element here. Gorgeous room; art center! Bravo! Mike

Toro Italo
01-28-2016, 12:32 PM
Hello Mirko!

Congrats - I'd say you have taken tri-amp to the "next level." I appreciate your comment re the "huge number of variables." So often folks here are hypnotized by the latest exotic gear when the truth is the "secret" is hours, months, years of hard work to optimize the system - engineering development/patience. No magic! Your effort to eliminate all the sources of noise is key. In the old days this was THE major problem with these complex systems. The Pass X-overs are a key element here. Gorgeous room; art center! Bravo! Mike


Thank you Mike!
The total absence of noise in bi-amp inspired me to try the tri-amp solution.
No one type of noise, no hum, simply the absolute silence in the absence of the input signal. You're right, crossovers are the weakest link in a complex system. XVR-1 is built with the same painstaking care of other Nelson Pass electronic. I'm more than happy to have made this choice, in my case the crossover really makes the difference.

All the best,

Mirko

Toro Italo
01-28-2016, 12:33 PM
Amazing work Mirko. Thank you for sharing.

My pleasure! :)