neutral sound?

[pyonc]

Hi friends,

I've been always curious about this "neutral sound" from speakers, compared to "bright" or "warm."
I feel the type of amps also weigh in here, coloring the sound bright, warm or neutral.
Some people say like this:
'Neutral' here meens it should sound as it should be, namely, if you listen music on PC.
So, with good headphone, you may get the best original sound as recorded.
If you compare that with speaker, you will come to know.

Do you agree? If not, what's the best way to determine neutral sound? And what affects neutral sound most?
What determines bright, warm, and neutral? Do you test with certain CD for music?
Thanks for your insight in advice.

[1audiohack]

Hi pyonc;

I don't really know what is being said in what you have in bold.

Neutral? Accurate. I am beginning to believe we all have a different idea of whats right or more correctly what we like.

If you like it just run with it.

Barry.

[hjames]

Hi friends,

I've been always curious about this "neutral sound" from speakers, compared to "bright" or "warm."
I feel the type of amps also weigh in here, coloring the sound bright, warm or neutral.
Some people say like this:
'Neutral' here meens it should sound as it should be, namely, if you listen music on PC.
So, with good headphone, you may get the best original sound as recorded.
If you compare that with speaker, you will come to know.

Do you agree? If not, what's the best way to determine neutral sound? And what affects neutral sound most?
What determines bright, warm, and neutral? Do you test with certain CD for music?
Thanks for your insight in advice.

At some point you need to decide for yourself what is good and what sounds good.
As the Duke used to say, "if it sounds good it IS good!"

[RedCoat23]

I've always understood neutral to mean a flat frequency response - there is no emphasis on one frequency range over another. (Look at the M2's on-axis chart as an example).
That's not to say neutral is preferable or better than warm or bright. Our personal perception of what is enjoyable is as different as we are as people.

We could spend many hours discussing what I like or Heather likes or Barry likes, but really they are personal perspectives and very much affected by what they listen on, what they listen to and where they listen.
Find what's pleasing to your ears in your environment on your system. The journey to our personal sonic nirvana is one of, if not the main reason we're involved in this hobby.
IMHO the labels applied to the system are irrelevant (neutral, bright, warm etc.). For me at least, if it takes me out of my daily life; if I find myself forgetting my previous actions and being lost to the music then I really can't ask for more.

By all means experiment. Build a bright system or a warm system and see if you like it in your current setting, if you change your setting your opinion may also change. What is true for you today may not be true for you tomorrow.

My suggestion, periodically just listen to the music for pleasure and enjoy it. It's all too easy to get lost in the chase for musical 'perfection' and forget we started all this just to enjoy music ;)

[fpitas]

I use headphones as a sanity check, although I'm careful making assumptions about their neutrality. Sometimes, even very good headphones have significant frequency shaping relative to flat:

http://www.headphone.com/pages/build-a-graph

Here, you can bring up the measured response of various headphones. In addition to the on-axis response, the polar response of a speaker will affect its sound, and that will be room-dependent; so comparison to headphones is not a complete answer.

Francis

[Mr. Widget]

To me, "neutral" is important. I define neutral as the speaker not coloring the sound... and what I mean by that is that I don't want the speaker to overly influence what I am hearing. Of course all speakers do color the sound and do influence what we hear, but the less coloration the better.

My method for subjectively testing this is to play back a number of familiar recordings. If I hear a common tonal characteristic on several different recordings then the playback system is probably imparting this. (Typically it is the speaker, but it can be due to the room or possibly the electronics.) Once I notice this characteristic it becomes pretty easy to pick it out and it becomes a distraction from my enjoyment of the music.

That said, the brain has a pretty powerful "DSP" built in and will override what we are actually hearing and fill in the holes and flatten the bumps. This is how we can listen to some pretty poor systems and still hear the music that is in there. I also think this is often related to the "burn in period." I believe we often internally "recalibrate" a system's voicing to better suit our ideal.


Widget

[rusty jefferson]

... If not, what's the best way to determine neutral sound? And what affects neutral sound most?
What determines bright, warm, and neutral? Do you test with certain CD for music?...


With listening experience, you will be able to determine the difference between these characteristics, for your ear. With members of my local audio club, systems that sound "neutral" to me, sound "hard" to others. What others hear as "neutral", might sound "soft" or "lush" to me. There is no perfect reference for "neutral" with audio. It's not like a "grey card" in photography, or the 4 "process colors" in lithography.

Electronics do play a large roll in these characteristics, as does the media chosen. Analogue sources, like tape and LPs have a different characteristic than the wide dynamic range of CDs. Many systems will sound best with analogue, or digital, but not both. Many equipment manufacturers have designed and built gear to have a particular sound characteristic, neutral or warm (soft). While nobody designs gear to be "bright", often inexpensive and older solid state gear shows that characteristic.

[Ducatista47]

Great reply, Widget. The best I have ever encountered on the subject.

The brain's ability to adjust our perception seems nearly endless. I am always amazed how many listeners let expectation bias retune their sensory experiences towards letting negative elements, present or not, dominate their take on what they should be enjoying. The Head-fi members drove me nuts with their endless soundstage rants (until I stopped reading them). If you stop thinking about it, the brain fixes everything in audio perception.

Strangely, it works in the visual realm too. I recently had two cataract surgeries. When one eye was good and the other terrible, I saw fine because my brain heavily favored the better eye's input, even when lighting conditions favored the worse eye.

Clark

[pyonc]

With listening experience, you will be able to determine the difference between these characteristics, for your ear. With members of my local audio club, systems that sound "neutral" to me, sound "hard" to others. What others hear as "neutral", might sound "soft" or "lush" to me. There is no perfect reference for "neutral" with audio. It's not like a "grey card" in photography, or the 4 "process colors" in lithography.

Electronics do play a large roll in these characteristics, as does the media chosen. Analogue sources, like tape and LPs have a different characteristic than the wide dynamic range of CDs. Many systems will sound best with analogue, or digital, but not both. Many equipment manufacturers have designed and built gear to have a particular sound characteristic, neutral or warm (soft). While nobody designs gear to be "bright", often inexpensive and older solid state gear shows that characteristic.

Yea, very subjective in some respect. Thanks!

[pyonc]

To me, "neutral" is important. I define neutral as the speaker not coloring the sound... and what I mean by that is that I don't want the speaker to overly influence what I am hearing. Of course all speakers do color the sound and do influence what we hear, but the less coloration the better.

Widget

Hummmm... I've been thinking the preamp, not speakers, affect the sound most among other factors. Currently I listen to 4343s in bi-amped mode, with SG520 preamp and two Crown power amps. I wonder how the speaker "color"s the sound without this preamp or power amp factor... Please enlighten this ignorant audiophile, Widget!

[Mr. Widget]

Hummmm... I've been thinking the preamp, not speakers, affect the sound most among other factors.Both objectively and subjectively, the preamplifier has the least impact on sound quality… this isn't to say it's insignificant or unimportant but the amplifier and speakers both have a greater impact on a system's sonic signature. Essentially what I'm talking about is accuracy and/or linearity. Preamplifiers are typically extremely accurate with low distortion, low noise, and low in frequency aberrations. Amplifiers vary a bit more and speakers quite a bit more… In fact orders of magnitude more.



Widget

[pyonc]

Both objectively and subjectively, the preamplifier has the least impact on sound quality… this isn't to say it's insignificant or unimportant but the amplifier and speakers both have a greater impact on a system's sonic signature. Essentially what I'm talking about is accuracy and/or linearity. Preamplifiers are typically extremely accurate with low distortion, low noise, and low-frequency aberrations. Amplifiers vary a bit more and speakers quite a bit more… In fact orders of magnitude more.
Widget

Many thanks for your kind explanation. If you use active crossover like I do, it must also color the speaker sound? I use Ashly XR1001 to run 4343s in bi-amp.

[Mr. Widget]

Many thanks for your kind explanation. If you use active crossover like I do, it must also color the speaker sound? I use Ashly XR1001 to run 4343s in bi-amp.Yes, an active crossover set flat with no gain and no filters engaged is like cascading a second preamp. As soon as you start using it as intended you can affect the sound markedly taking an excellent system and completely ruining it, or hopefully taking a well engineered system and with great care in the set up allow it to perform at it's best.


Widget

[pyonc]

Yes, an active crossover set flat with no gain and no filters engaged is like cascading a second preamp. As soon as you start using it as intended you can affect the sound markedly taking an excellent system and completely ruining it, or hopefully taking a well engineered system and with great care in the set up allow it to perform at it's best.


Widget

I see. Given your analysis, there are clearly as many cons as pros for the use of active crossover for speakers like 4343, etc. In my case, I hear more lively and dynamic sound from bi-amp mode, though, comparing passive mode of this particular JBL brand.

[Mr. Widget]

I see. Given your analysis, there are clearly as many cons as pros for the use of active crossover for speakers like 4343, etc. Exactly! Audio reproduction is all about the art of compromise.


Widget

[Ducatista47]

Exactly! Audio reproduction is all about the art of compromise.


Widget Shucks, no perfect speakers? Ears? Brains? :D

[Fort Knox]

Hi pyonc;

I don't really know what is being said in what you have in bold.

Neutral? Accurate. I am beginning to believe we all have a different idea of whats right or more correctly what we like.

If you like it just run with it.

Barry.

I know what he's saying...He's using his headphones as ref. monitors
and comparing to his room sp.