Dismantling Array 1400, possible without damage?

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Hi All, you might have seen my wanted ad in the sellers section. Anyway i've bee after a pair of 1400s but they are hard to come by in the UK.

So Thanks to a French forum member (who's been extremely helpful!) i've located a pair in France the only problem is getting them to the UK, there are two options, one me hiring a van driving over and picking them up, or them being couriered from France to me, packed in there original boxes.

The only thing is the guy selling them is worried he could damage them if he tries to dismantle them and pack them away in their boxes, Im going to hang fire here because i'm not sure how difficult the speakers are to disassemble for shipping without damaging them.

So what do people think that have had experience of the assembling/dismantling the speaker?

PS. I don't want to push the guy out of his comfort zone if he isn't to technical (he wants me to pay for the speaker, in case he damages them when taking them apart before he tries).

Thanks, J

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Just looking at the instruction it seems the badge, i take it this is stuck on with double sided tape? (interesting design if it is just double side tape!) not designed to be clipped into the holes? I guess a hairdryer would loosen the glue?

Im not sure where the rubber hole plug goes! ( i know what your thinking! stop! ;))

[Odd]

There is some info here (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27446-1400-Array-re-assembly-issues). There are more, but can not find it now.

[macaroonie]

On balance I think you might be best to do the van thing , I know it will be more than a shipper but you will have full charge over your purchase. No if's or but's in the mix. Take plenty of blankets.
Once upon a time I drove an Accuphase pre/ power all the way to that London , it was too valuable and heavy to trust to a shipper. As a percentage of the value of the amps the van hire was negligible .
Best of luck whatever you elect to do.

[Space is the...]

Thanks Odd and Macaroonie!

Yes it doesn't seem a particularly well design way to assemble or dismantle the horns! That the badge is held on with double sided tape seems a bit bonkers obviously its more than suitable if they aren't ever coming apart again, surely some other way to attach them would have been better?! in design "god is in the details..." anyway the point is moot.

Ive also just seen the tiny bracket that supports the horn (obviously they must also be held in place by the lower cabinet too) that bracket doesn't seem particularly substantial, or maybe it doesn't look that way in the photos?
With the horn attached even if i did pick them myself i'd be very worried about supporting the horn if the speaker were laid on their sides for transportation, the only other way of doing it is to have them upright in a larger van?! Oh the humanity! ;)

I'll have to wait until Xmas now to do this anyway, them Avantgarde Zero 1 are starting to look even more tempting!

[macaroonie]

If you manage to get the strip down process info to your satisfaction , seems there is a hex key involved , I would still get over there to fetch them. You can't beat a first hand viewing before you hand over the dosh.

This may help a bit

http://www.hifishock.org/gallery/speakers/jbl/array-1400-0d-jbl/

and this

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?9938-Project-Array-has-Arrived/page2

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Cheers yes i think they are the images ive seen before, that and one with the horn section snapped off! I dont think it would be beyond my ability to take these apart without damaging them, but im quite technically minded, but i can appreciated someone else isnt.

I think i will tot up the logistics of going after Xmas, if he sells them he sells them in the meantime, i know the seller has got his hands full, with one thing and another, and i suppose he would rather sell them to someone in France which will make it easier.
Looking at the photographs the speakers do look immaculate and the seller has many post on the forum so i definitely think he is trust worthy, but yes there is nothing like seeing the speaker in the flesh to decided.

The other thing that i haven't even factored in is that they might not be that much better than the sound of my NHT evolutions (their infinite baffle, active crossover and 500watts per side of power), or they might even be worse! As i know the NHT are definitely better in many ways than the early B&W 801s i had, and aren't that far away in performance to ATC SCM 100 ASLs either, it could ultimately be a case of the grass being greener!

[Mr. Widget]

I would recommend trying to get them apart as the horns of the 1400 Arrays are top heavy and not structurally sound for transit when attached. Unfortunately the double sided adhesive that JBL uses to secure the nameplate is very strong and may be difficult to remove. The nameplate is surprisingly robust so it's unlikely you will damage it, but the softtouch paint on the horn is fairly fragile so care not to scratch or chip the horn is important.

I have assembled and disassembled my 1400 Arrays numerous times, but since I knew I would be doing this, I never removed all of the backer of the double stick adhesive on the nameplate so mine are easily removed.

Regarding whether or not you'll like the 1400 Arrays, that's a tough question. As one data point I'll say that they are one of my favorite speakers… but that really has no bearing on whether or not they would be one of yours. I would highly recommend that you find a pair to audition.


Widget

[BMWCCA]

I was concerned about this same issue when I had the opportunity to purchase a pair of 1400 Arrays for cheap just prior to buying my current 4345s. I asked JBL and was told the badges were listed at something like $65 each back then but there were none available at that time.

I passed, though I'd still like to try or at least hear a pair at some time before I shuffle off this mortal coil. :)

[LowPhreak]

I was concerned about this same issue when I had the opportunity to purchase a pair of 1400 Arrays for cheap just prior to buying my current 4345s. I asked JBL and was told the badges were listed at something like $65 each back then but there were none available at that time.



I've been trying to get a set of replacement grills for my 590's from Chris Smith at JBL since I got them last spring. Last I heard, there was [supposedly] a pair somewhere in...France. I kid you not.


Thanks Harman bean counters!


:banghead:

[Space is the...]

I would recommend trying to get them apart as the horns of the 1400 Arrays are top heavy and not structurally sound for transit when attached. Unfortunately the double sided adhesive that JBL uses to secure the nameplate is very strong and may be difficult to remove. The nameplate is surprisingly robust so it's unlikely you will damage it, but the softtouch paint on the horn is fairly fragile so care not to scratch or chip the horn is important.

I have assembled and disassembled my 1400 Arrays numerous times, but since I knew I would be doing this, I never removed all of the backer of the double stick adhesive on the nameplate so mine are easily removed.

Regarding whether or not you'll like the 1400 Arrays, that's a tough question. As one data point I'll say that they are one of my favorite speakers… but that really has no bearing on whether or not they would be one of yours. I would highly recommend that you find a pair to audition.


Widget

Thanks Widget et al... I didnt even realise the horn was painted! i thought it was molded in one solid colour! If it painted why didnt the spray it a gloss to match the cabinets! anyway...sigh

The seller wont remove the horns for boxing without me paying for them first, then he'll box them up and send them via my corier, but like i say if he isn't so confident about doing this i don't want him to and damage the speakers, however everybody has said even if i go and pick them up ill have to remove the horns before i transport them anyway! catch 22!

So it leaves me this option i go and get the speakers myself, i think with the van hire fuel, ferry and expenses it'll be close to £600, and then when i get there i remove the horns, box them up and drive back with them!

How much better are the new M2's than the 1400s? ;)

As regards the sound of them i did hear a pair once at a show and thought the only thing was better was the big MBL set up, everyone seems to like the 1400s, Its just something id like to try because ive not had a horn loud speaker before. My other option is a pair of K29800, but they are just as rare in the UK too!

[macaroonie]

The M2 is a whole different beastie. It would help at this stage if you could let us know what you are driving your system with , size and type of room and mostly what you are expecting your system to deliver.

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The M2 is a whole different beastie. It would help at this stage if you could let us know what you are driving your system with , size and type of room and mostly what you are expecting your system to deliver. Room is 20 x 14, Suspended wood floor (carpeted) large window at one end, both these features tend to suck out some bass, there is a null at around 100hz, room is treated with acoustic panels. Speakers need to stand in free space, this is why i like the 1400s because the horn section is no higher wider than the tops of the speaker i have now, they should fit in the same place and hopefully (everything crossed, sound OK).

I'm driving it with four 250 watt mononblocks and an active crossover for the mains and bass modules. I know what i've got now sounds fairly reasonable compared to other systems i've heard, so like i put in the post im not sure what the improvement will be, for a speaker with normal drive units the NHTs are reasonably dynamic, and go as loud as i'll ever need. Ideally id like a larger, more open, dynamic, real sound without any artifacts, ie the moon on a stick!

The one thing that puts me off the M2 is the looks of them if they where closer to a wall im sure i could live with them but out standing in free space, i think they stick out like the sore ugly thumbs they are! Where as the 1400s are more interesting to look at years of SciFi has helped with that! and i like the looks of the K2s too.

Ive also emailed someone who's had experience of both the 1400s and the Avantgarde Zero 1s, it'll be interesting to see what his thoughts are on both speakers. (if he gets back to me that is!).

P.S. Macaroonie i noticed your living near Glasgow... if your approached by a very attractive dark-haired young woman driving a transit van? Don't get in it! :no_wag:;)

The JBL Odyssey continues...

[macaroonie]

That last bit is a little obscure ...... :confused:

Anyway I'm at odds with you on looks , I really could not live with the 1400's unless they were behind a curtain.

The M2 is a tall speaker aimed at a particular client , probably too tall for sofa applications. Anyway from what you tell about your system you are well equipped amp wise and so on and clearly have a good insight into your sound space.

As I have suggested here before the Dual dia technology will absolutely trickle down , whether it appears in consumer products remains to be seen.
In Pro the smaller compression driver pops up so far in the VTX V20 line array. Also the D2430 is in the new VTX F12 and F15.
What I'm getting at here is that the technology in the M2 is appearing all over the shop and by extension should show up in many more guises as time goes on.
My waters tell me to expect a slightly smaller M2 , probably a variant in a pretty box and so on.
I fully expect to see the smaller compression driver in boxes from L100 size and on up.
Horns seem to be system specific now , that's yer rapid prototyping for you , not to make light of that at all. Charles Sprinkle clearly knows his stuff.

I would probably hold tight for a while , CES is coming up after the new year , in the meantime read up as much as you can on the current pro offerings and the technology behind them. I have yet to see any adverse reports , and the pro crowd are VERY hard to please.

Most importantly JBL speakers while not always perfect , can mostly be relied on to put a stupid grin on your face. :D

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Thanks for the info on what might be coming out in the near future, very interesting! Will have a look at some of the model numbers.

Sorry about the obscure reference! i just watched a film the other night with called "Under the Skin", i wont tell you what its about if you haven't heard about it, i'd suggest NOT looking at the reviews too, because they give the game away, one of the most interesting and odd films i've watched for years. If you watch it you'll understand my reference to the van and the girl! :)

EDIT: Had a look at some of the VTX speakers the technology is very impressive! Just been watching a few of the videos on you tube with the outdoor demos, i think the best PA ive heard was Bjork's d&B set up, but these sound pretty damn good!

<br>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DRms0mjmw8

[macaroonie]

Thanks for the info on what might be coming out in the near future, very interesting! Will have a look at some of the model numbers.

I hasten to add that this is not solid info but speculation based on a good few years dealing with Harman uk / JBL , reading the tea leaves if you will.

[Space is the...]

Hi all, i put a wanted add in the classifieds for some Array 1400s, which are fairly hard to come by in the UK, anyway i eventually manged to get a pair, they where delivered yesterday and they are like brand new!
So thanks to Widget, Maccaroonie Lowpreak Odd, BMWCCA (cooky and Merlin over on PF) and Pos (i feel like im at the Oscars!), but most especially to Pos who went out of his way, being my translator (i eventually got a pair from France) go between and adviser! Without his help i'd still be "Arrayless"

So thanks one and all, will post my impressions of them in the Array thread! :rockon1::rockon2:

J

[LowPhreak]

Congrats from all of us Arrayless onlookers in the audience! :applaud:

[pos]

So thanks to Widget, Maccaroonie Lowpreak Odd, BMWCCA (cooky and Merlin over on PF) and Pos (i feel like im at the Oscars!), but most especially to Pos who went out of his way, being my translator (i eventually got a pair from France) go between and adviser! Without his help i'd still be "Arrayless"
My pleasure Jon :)
This is what forums are for after all!

Regarding the original topic of this thread, here are a couple of pictures from the seller on how he managed to remove the foilcals from the horns.
He did not even had to use a hair dryer.
What you see on the horn are just residues from the double sided tape that he left in-place to be able to easily reinstall the foical

64165

64166

[macaroonie]

Splendid ! :applaud:

[audiomagnate]

Well, how do you like them? These are my all time favorite JBLs. I've never heard any speaker that images as well. Sounds like it was much ado about nothing on the logos.

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Well, how do you like them? These are my all time favorite JBLs. I've never heard any speaker that images as well. Sounds like it was much ado about nothing on the logos.

Ive had them a little under a week now so getting used to what they do!
I think they sound very natural, even though they are hi-fidelity in the purest sense they aren't "hifi" if that makes any sense at all?
Shall i just say they're fantastic and leave it at that! :D

I using them with fairly inexpensive electronics, Dacmagic Plus using the volume control (i did have a EE Minimax Valve preamp, but i think they sound better without it in the loop) and four NHT A1 monoblocks which i got at cost, bi-amped so about 500watts per side, don't know if the speaker would improve with fancier amps and front end, but with this inexpensive setup there aren't many artifacts in the sound, the bass isn't quite as tight as the infinite baffle speakers i had or as deep, but overall the JBLs have much less dynamic compression.

I listen to so many different types of music and they don't seem to favour anything, and of course they can get pretty close to sounding like 'live' It's the first time i've heard Bjork sound like Bjork does singing live un-amplified and that's a pretty hard trick to pull off!

[rdgrimes]

You need a 1500 Array to go with those. Trust me, they play very nice with the LE14H-3.

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You need a 1500 Array to go with those. Trust me, they play very nice with the LE14H-3.

Ha! Yes im sure it does! I think the bass from the Arrays is just low enough and possibly the room is the limitation ultimately to there performance at the moment. Just listening to Mahler's 2nd now typing this and they are very impressive on climaxes!

I'm going to see my friend next week who has ATC 100As with their large sub and some *infinite subs in the roof making the loft space the box, i can't remember exactly what he called them, only there are two 18inch drivers and it creates a live ambiance to playback, looking forward to hearing it.

*Cant remember what he said this type of sub was called now.

[LowPhreak]

space, do yourself a favor if you're looking for a sub(s) and check out the top REL's, such as the G-1 and G-2, or older models on the used market like Studio and Stentor. Once you get them positioned well and dialed-in, you'll be amazed at the improvement not only in the last octave but also the soundstage and detail of the whole sound, not to mention that you should get a seamless transition from the sub's range to the satellites.

As good as I've heard many other subs to be, I can't say the above about them. Why do you think I call myself "low" phreak? ;)

http://rel.net/ No affliation.

[Space is the...]

I dont really need subs the other speakers had dual subs (in fact i still have them and a tiny Sunfire Sub) they maybe went a little lower in room than the Arrays, but the Arrays are enough i don't want to add more complication to it. Im going to measure room later this week to see whats going on with the frequency response, i cant help but feel (hear) the midrange and top end sound very linear to me probably more so than any other speaker i've tried.

[LowPhreak]

That's quite understandable. Sometimes "less is more" in audio, especially in areas like bass response if it isn't done right. Except for the advantages of greater spatial info/soundstage that the REL's can bring, I don't feel much need for a sub with the 590's. I'm sure the same can be said for your 1400's.

...although, I think it'd be more fun to watch that 14" do its job rather than these two 8's. :blink:



:bouncy:

[rdgrimes]

I dont really need subs the other speakers had dual subs (in fact i still have them and a tiny Sunfire Sub) they maybe went a little lower in room than the Arrays, but the Arrays are enough i don't want to add more complication to it. Im going to measure room later this week to see whats going on with the frequency response, i cant help but feel (hear) the midrange and top end sound very linear to me probably more so than any other speaker i've tried.

It'll boil down to how much stuff you listen to with <40Hz content. With music that's pretty much limited to pipe organs and a few other rare things. For movies, its a lot different. That said, I run my PS stacks on a 40Hz crossover to an Array 1500 and HTPS400, and really like the results. But that's mostly for movies. Not to say I don't drag out the pipe organ SACDs when I feel like rattling the house. Obviously the room is part of the equation too, and the amps driving the 1400 might or might not also benefit from routing 40Hz to a sub.

[LowPhreak]

It'll boil down to how much stuff you listen to with <40Hz content. With music that's pretty much limited to pipe organs and a few other rare things.

I'd argue there's a lot more "down there" below 40 Hz than many people think, and it's not just from organs or the 5th string on an electric bass. Briefly, as Alvin Gold has put it:

“…bass and cello fundamentals that were only implied by their harmonics are now produced in full strength. But the benefits extend well beyond the bass, as the additional bandwidth alters the perception of midband and treble output, adding richness and a greater range of tonal colours, and adding also to image scale.”

and from REL's blurb:

"Strange as it may seem, it’s not only bass instruments that produce low frequencies – many orchestral notes contain low frequency components, which contribute to the defining character of their sound. For pure fidelity to be realized, every part of every note in the music must be reproduced, along with the acoustic signature of the recording space."

That's part of what I mean when I say a very good sub can improve soundstage perception, detail, and sense of the recording space, and not that many subs actually get it right. I learned long ago not to buy most mfg. or pro reviewer hype, but in this case it's true.


:)