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View Full Version : L300 Summit with Nelson Pass crossover mod and First Watt J2 Amp



Murillo Moreira
12-05-2014, 07:37 PM
Hello friends, as a JBL fan I'm very happy in finding a place to talk about these awesome speakers.
L300 always were a dream speaker set to me, unfortunately I never had a pair, my experience with JBL were a Jubal and a 4315 that I had long time ago.
But both have 12" woofers and does not really gave me the deep bass that I love.
My main system uses a B&W 801 Matrix, and I really like them, but to me they do not play rock like JBL does, I like them more for listening classical and jazz because they are very precise, and also the bass is awesome, but it lacks the fun of the JBL, they are maid for rock IMHO.

My first try DIY with the L300 is far away from the original one, I just got a pair of 2215 woofers and made a box with the L300 measurements, and installed at the Mid and Highs scanspeak speakers, the 8545 and the illuminator, using a active crossover with 6 mono amps.
63738


This gave me pleasure for a couple years, but now I really decided to go for the summits, and bought the following drivers:

2420 with 2307 horns
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63740

2405 tweeter
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63742

2235H woofer


:):):)

I decided to go for the Mr. Pass crossover, I love his designs and to me I think it will be a good starting point for these drivers.
The crossover is well documented in:
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_l300.pdf

I will post here every step of this construction, and would like to hear advices from everyone.

I would like to know if somebody build this crossovers and what they sound.

Also, I wonder how this speaker sound with the Mr. Pass First Watt J2 amp, it's a very good sound amp, but unfortunately, as is Class A, has only 25W per channel and I'm afraid it will not make them sound their full potential.

Anyone tried this FW J2? I also have a Harman Kardon Citation II amp, it needs some work to do, change some caps and valves but if somebody has listened to this J2 + L300 or citation II + L300 I would love to hear their impressions, specially playing rock music, that's the main goal with these speakers for me.

Good night to everybody!

From Brasil, Murillo.

Murillo Moreira
12-05-2014, 07:43 PM
63743
Pass crossover


63744
63745
63746
63747

I made this hole in the bottom just to add more cubic feet to the 2215 woofers, but now I will remove it, also the box in the base, and will install all the bracement. I will put the pics after I done it.

Murillo Moreira
12-05-2014, 07:51 PM
63748
They are not in the L300 but it looks so nice that I will install them also...


63749

63750

As Mr. Pass crossover do not have resistors with the tweeter, I think I must install the L-pads to adjust for my taste.

audiomagnate
12-06-2014, 09:58 AM
That's something you don't see everyday! Your cabinets look bottomless BTW, what's up with that?

fpitas
12-06-2014, 10:08 AM
I'm using a FW J2 as a horn driver amp, in a tri-amplified active system (see signature for details). It's just about ideal as a horn amp, with no turn-on or turn-off thump, no crossover distortion, and in general a very clean sound. The 25W available may be too little as an amplifier for a normal speaker with a passive crossover, unless you always listen fairly quietly.

Francis

Murillo Moreira
12-06-2014, 11:19 AM
That's something you don't see everyday! Your cabinets look bottomless BTW, what's up with that? Yes you are right, they are very ugly and strange, but I'm fixing them now, installing the bracement and filling the mid and tweeter holes to receive the JBL drivers. BTW, anyone know the correct measurements for the tweeter and mid placement? Also I wanna know if the lens are really necessary.

Murillo Moreira
12-06-2014, 11:23 AM
I'm using a FW J2 as a horn driver amp, in a tri-amplified active system (see signature for details). It's just about ideal as a horn amp, with no turn-on or turn-off thump, no crossover distortion, and in general a very clean sound. The 25W available may be too little as an amplifier for a normal speaker with a passive crossover, unless you always listen fairly quietly.

Francis

Hi Francis, thx for the info, I was wondering this, 25W is not a good amount of power to drive them. I will try with my citation II instead, 60W of KT88 tube sound.

DavidF
12-06-2014, 04:37 PM
Yes you are right, they are very ugly and strange, but I'm fixing them now, installing the bracement and filling the mid and tweeter holes to receive the JBL drivers. BTW, anyone know the correct measurements for the tweeter and mid placement? Also I wanna know if the lens are really necessary.

If you are trying to emulate the original performance, then yes the lens is necessary. Otherwise, the sound dispersion from the straight sided conical horn will not blend as well with the woofer response.

Given the higher prices for the L300, and rare appearances in some markets, it makes sense to work up your own system. Good luck!

Murillo Moreira
12-06-2014, 07:54 PM
Thx David for your advice.
There is a guy selling at ebay, it is the Kernrick Sound version, I will buy it.
Yes, the L300 is like an old Rolex submariner, it gets very expensive as the time goes by.
Here in Brasil, guys are asking $12,000 for a pair. That's too much, specially when I can buy a B&W 801 for 3,5k
The only solution is to build one from scratch.

Up to know, I spent:
2420 w 2307........................ $610
2405................................... $580
2235H................................. $800
Pass Crossover madisound..... $220
Foilcal labels.........................$130
Screws, l-pads, clamps,ie.......$100
2308 lenses .........................$130 (to buy)
Freight to Brasil....................$400
Total...................................$2970

So with 3k aprox. I can make a very good clone, that's very far from 12k :D

At ebay there is a par for sale for "only" 8k, but with freight and taxing charges it will be cheaper to buy here for "only" 12k. :crying:

Murillo Moreira
12-06-2014, 08:14 PM
That's something you don't see everyday! Your cabinets look bottomless BTW, what's up with that?

Just to explain the bottomless, I was using with a 2215 woofer that requires 8 cu.ft. so I made another box in the base and a hole at the bottom, now, that I bought the 2235H I removed the hole and the box under it, so that it will be in the L300 measures.

BTW, if there is anybody can tell me how much worth a pair of 2215 woofers, I think about selling them at ebay but I do not know how much they worth, they are in good condition. The problem is with the freight that I think will cost at least $200 to send to US.

Murillo Moreira
12-06-2014, 08:33 PM
\

So with 3k aprox. I can make a very good clone, that's very far from 12k :D




Just a coincidence as the original price on 1975 of the summits was 3k!

Murillo Moreira
12-07-2014, 04:00 PM
63776

Can any good soul tell me the exact measurements of:

A (tweeter center from top)
B (mid center from top)
L5

Sepperl
12-08-2014, 05:50 AM
63776

Can any good soul tell me the exact measurements of:

A (tweeter center from top)
B (mid center from top)
L5
A Tweeter Top to center 9,5 cm
B Horn -"- -"- 23,5 cm
Regards
Alex

Murillo Moreira
12-08-2014, 09:01 AM
A Tweeter Top to center 9,5 cm
B Horn -"- -"- 23,5 cm
Regards
Alex

Including the glass?

God bless you Alex.

Murillo Moreira
12-08-2014, 09:11 AM
63778


A = 9,5cm
B = 23,5cm
C = ?
D = ?
E = ?
F = ?
G = ?
H = ?

Sepperl
12-09-2014, 03:14 AM
[QUOTE=Murillo Moreira;369309]63778


A = 9,5cm
B = 23,5cm
C = 4,cm
D = 7,cm
F = 3,5cm
G = 35,5cm
H = 4,cm
Bassreflex outer Dia 10,5cm length of tube 10,cm
All measurement from the top without glass and foam.
Instaed the foam I use felt under the glass felt+ glass is 1 cm together.

If you need any support let me know
Regards

Murillo Moreira
12-09-2014, 06:26 PM
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud:
This is my Christmas best gift! :D

Thank you so much.

Murillo

Murillo Moreira
12-09-2014, 09:31 PM
Just bought... as suggested from my friend DavidF :applaud:

637976379863799

Murillo Moreira
12-09-2014, 10:09 PM
For the internal cable I think it will do a good job, specially with the madisound components:



Solen 2.25 mH Perfect Lay Inductors 14 AWG
pl2.25


2



Solen 1.0 mH Perfect Lay Inductors 14 AWG
pl1.0



2



Solen 0.22 mH Perfect Lay Inductors 14 AWG
pl.22



2




Solen PB 22 mfd Metalized Polypropylene Fast Capacitor 400V
cp22


6



Mundorf 1.0 mfd Supreme Caps
ms1



2




Solen PB 2.2 mfd Metalized Polypropylene Fast Capacitor 400V
cp2.2




2




Eagle 20 ohms
20e




4



Eagle 16 ohms
16e



4





63801

Will post a pic after completed.

Murillo Moreira
12-09-2014, 10:44 PM
[QUOTE=Murillo Moreira;369309]63778


A = 9,5cm
B = 23,5cm
C = 4,cm
D = 7,cm
F = 3,5cm
G = 35,5cm
H = 4,cm
Bassreflex outer Dia 10,5cm length of tube 10,cm
All measurement from the top without glass and foam.
Instaed the foam I use felt under the glass felt+ glass is 1 cm together.

If you need any support let me know
Regards

Man you made my day! Thx

audiomagnate
12-21-2014, 01:34 PM
25 watts on an L300? That's like a Ferrari with a 40 mph limiter!

Murillo Moreira
12-21-2014, 04:49 PM
25 watts on an L300? That's like a Ferrari with a 40 mph limiter!

Hi magnate, totally agree with you! I was not sure about this but after reading some posts I forget this idea. Yesterday I went to a friends house to hear a 4315A powered by two mono Cary audio 805 tube amps, 50W each, it was a very good experience, sound was awesome, but it lacks some bass and the distortion levels are high when we tried to turn up the volume.

The Cary are class A amps, with no negative feedback, i noticed that at low levels listening, it's awesome, but when we want to go louder... no way.

We also noticed that the L-pads were totally bad, I used a spl meter with some test signals to adjust them and one speaker the HF was +3 and the other -3 to get the same loudness. This speaker sounds awesome, unfortunatelly it has not the deep bass sound of the 15 inch JBL drivers, but the sound is very organic and dynamic.

We tested a Krell KAV-300il that's 200W per channel and the distortion was gone, but the fun of the speaker also take a ride with the distortion. The sound became to much analytical, cold, and not for my taste.

Incredible is that I use this Krell with my B&W 801 and the sound is very good.

I would like to ask to you guys if the 2420 driver has any support at the enclosure, it's very heavy and I can't believe it's only supported by the screws.

Thx and a merry christmas to every JBL fan out there!

christo
12-22-2014, 11:39 AM
I would like to ask to you guys if the 2420 driver has any support at the enclosure, it's very heavy and I can't believe it's only supported by the screws.


I had an LE-85/H91 mounted on 3/4 in particle board with no support bracket for over 25 years with no issues, but if I was moving to a new home I removed the all the speakers from the cabinets. Would I do this again probably not.

Odd
12-22-2014, 12:03 PM
25 watts on an L300? That's like a Ferrari with a 40 mph limiter!

Pass 25W sounds very good if you go active, and use it for HF.
But you must have more power to the bass driver.

Murillo Moreira
12-22-2014, 07:26 PM
I think I will go with the Cary Sli-80,



80 watts per channel in Class A/B ultra-linear mode, push pull amplifier design, 40 Watts per channel in Class A Triode mode, stereo integrated amplifier, 3 stereo input pairs, sub woofer preamp output, black steel chassis, KT88 output tubes. Standard with remote volume control, has 4 or 8 ohm speaker impedance switches, headphone jack, triode or ultra-linear mode switches and oil filled capacitors. Black anodized aluminum front panel.



40W in class A may give me the sweet sound of the tubes and if I wanna go rock, ultralinear will give me 80W.
Of curse a 300W ss amp would give me a more controlled bass and kicks some ass, but the tube sound is just incredible with these speakers, I heard the 4315 with a 50W tube amp and it really make me very pleased.

Of course I would like to hear what everybody thinks about that.

63893

Murillo Moreira
12-22-2014, 07:29 PM
also there are 2 subwoofer pre-outs, to use with active subs, in this case I wonder I can use it with a solid state amp to bi-amp the L-300. :)

hjames
12-22-2014, 07:47 PM
I run my JBL L200 3ways (similar to L300s) with a 60w/ch Jolida JD502BRC integrated amp.
With a quad of 6550 output tubes, it won't go "stupid loud" but its plenty full for most music.
Great highs and mids, nice tight bass, and plays them or the Von Schweikert VR-4s quite well.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=58135&d=1360204145

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=63831&d=1418683242

Crestwood23
12-22-2014, 08:34 PM
I have had amazing results bi amping my L300s (with nelson pass crossovers) using a Marantz 8b on the HF and a Crown Com Tech 800 on the LF. I agree that the horns and tweets love tubes, but I do think the big 15" woofers respond much better to high damping factor SS. I use a tube pre as well (Juicy Music Blueberry Xtreme) and it is a nice gain match for both amps. I have found this configuration to be the best of both worlds - mids that bring tears to your eyes and bass that will kick you in the ass when called upon.

My brother in law runs his L300s with a beautiful pair of fully restored Mcintosh MC60's (with stock original crossovers) - that setup also sounds fantastic in its own way, but I do think it ultimately lacks the deeeep bass and ultra dynamics these speakers are capable of.

BMWCCA
12-22-2014, 08:59 PM
I run my 4-way 4345s bi-amped using an Ashly XR1001 and a Crown PS-200 on the upper-three drivers and Crown PS-400 on the 18-inch woofer. That works out to about 100-watts-per-channel on top and 200 on the low-end. I've never heard any distortion even at stupid volume levels (infrequent), and the Crown IOC lamps have never even flickered.

I haven't used tube amps since trading my Fisher SA1000 for my first Crown D150 sometime around 1970. Never missed it and never had any reason to describe the Crown sound as anything but musical. :dont-know:

Murillo Moreira
12-23-2014, 08:37 AM
In this case of bi-amping the l300, I can have other solutions...
I have a Harman Kardon Citation II tupe amp, KT88 60W/ch that I could use for the 2420/2405, and a Krell KAV-300il for the 15"drivers, I think will be a greater option instead of a integrated tube amp, but my concern is with the output/input impedance match of the citation and krell pre-out, only listening to know.
Sometime ago I had an audio store here in Brasil, so I heard a lot of equipments and have my preferences. I still have some pieces and will have a lot of great time trying to discover what is the best combo.
This is what I still have, and will not sale because I'm tired of selling good gear for so less money, I remember that I had a threshold stasis S300 that I sold for less than $800 and that makes me feel sad when remembering that. MBL 5011 preamp, Zanden, Audio Research V110, VTL, also were in my inventory.
This is what survived:
Krell KAV-300il - Audio Research LS7 - BAT VK5 - BAT VK500 - Harman Kardon Citation II
63897

63898

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martin2395
12-23-2014, 12:23 PM
The Van Den Hul Magnum is not suitable for internal wiring, it is way too thick and overall it's a dark and quite muddy sounding cable.
I suggest you to try Belden 9497 for the mids and highs and a double pair of 9497 for the bass (with a single pair for the bass the lows will lack punch, tried it on my 2235H's).

Crestwood23
12-23-2014, 03:05 PM
You have a nice stable of gear to try. If I were you, I'd build the crossovers to allow for bi amping (split the HF and the LF and use 4 binding posts for each cabinet). Then you can strap the binding posts together and try a single amp first. Pick one of your nice pre's and hook up the Citation first. I've never heard one, but from what I've read they have some of the best bass of any vintage tube amp. You might be satisfied with that amp alone. Then you could try the citation on the HF and the BAT on the LF, using the BAT pre (if it has 2 main outputs - if not you could use a y cable off of the single main out). You might get lucky with the levels matching. That is the biggest benefit of using the Crown in my setup - it has level controls that allow me to match the output of the 8b on the HF.
If you can't get the levels matched with the amps you have, I would stick with one of your tube pres and the citation on the HF, then buy a Crown or other *cheap* SS amp with gain controls to use on the LF.

Murillo Moreira
12-23-2014, 03:45 PM
The Van Den Hul Magnum is not suitable for internal wiring, it is way too thick and overall it's a dark and quite muddy sounding cable.
I suggest you to try Belden 9497 for the mids and highs and a double pair of 9497 for the bass (with a single pair for the bass the lows will lack punch, tried it on my 2235H's).


Thx Martin for the valuable info, that's why forums like these are about, to avoid newbies doing mistakes, and I believe in humanity, there is a lot of good people around there, people when can trust, of course there are the biased and bad intentions ones.

I will try to find this belden, and you the vdh as speaker cables after.

Merry Christmas for you and your family.

Murillo

Murillo Moreira
12-23-2014, 03:57 PM
You have a nice stable of gear to try. If I were you, I'd build the crossovers to allow for bi amping (split the HF and the LF and use 4 binding posts for each cabinet). Then you can strap the binding posts together and try a single amp first. Pick one of your nice pre's and hook up the Citation first. I've never heard one, but from what I've read they have some of the best bass of any vintage tube amp. You might be satisfied with that amp alone. Then you could try the citation on the HF and the BAT on the LF, using the BAT pre (if it has 2 main outputs - if not you could use a y cable off of the single main out). You might get lucky with the levels matching. That is the biggest benefit of using the Crown in my setup - it has level controls that allow me to match the output of the 8b on the HF.
If you can't get the levels matched with the amps you have, I would stick with one of your tube pres and the citation on the HF, then buy a Crown or other *cheap* SS amp with gain controls to use on the LF.

Nice to hear that Crestwood, every advice here I follow with my heart, this is the JBL best place to gain information, and I'm very happy to be part of this community.

I have luck because my JBL cabinets are already with 3 pairs of biding posts each, so I can make them 3-amp if I want, but 2-amp is what I think the most suitable, one for the 2235H woofer and the other for the 2420 and 2405 drivers.

Yes, citation II is an awesome f*** amp, I will have only to make some minor upgrades and fixes, and try it.

I will document everything here to let others people know. The VK500 is an outstanding amp, 250W/ch 8ohm and 500 4ohms!!! this baby will make the L300 surely rock!!!

A friend offered me a JADIS ORCHESTRA, it's a el34 40w/ch integrated amp, but I will pass this.

The cabinets are at the workshop, I installed the bracement and reinforcement to avoid any vibration, 10 at total, 8 horizontally and 2 vertical on the back of the speaker, also added more 15mm MDF to the laterals of the speaker and the bottom, because I noticed that I made it 5cm larger than the original, so the sides of this beast is now with 40mm each!!! That's very, very heavy animal.

I will post photos when I have them.

Murillo Moreira
12-23-2014, 04:29 PM
\- it has level controls that allow me to match the output of the 8b on the HF.


Man you are a luck guy... Marantz 8b is one of the sweetest tube amps I have ever heard! I had one but unfortunately sold. 8b and ST70 has the best midrange signature of audio possible, I think maybe it's because of the el34, the midrange king of the tubes! I'm wondering how a Coltrane sax would sound with one of these beasts feeding the L300, I would have an orgasm and mess all the floor:dont-know:

Murillo Moreira
12-23-2014, 04:33 PM
Belden 9497 for the mids and highs and a double pair of 9497 for the bass (with a single pair for the bass the lows will lack punch, tried it on my 2235H's).


Are this the cables you are talking about?

63902

audiomagnate
12-24-2014, 01:07 PM
...I would like to ask to you guys if the 2420 driver has any support at the enclosure, it's very heavy and I can't believe it's only supported by the screws...

It's supported by a cradle of particle board attached to the inside of the rear access panel. On the 200 they just use a piece of steel. I like 300s rolled off at 50 into a sub swarm.

Murillo Moreira
12-24-2014, 05:36 PM
It's supported by a cradle of particle board attached to the inside of the rear access panel. On the 200 they just use a piece of steel. I like 300s rolled off at 50 into a sub swarm.

you are right. Merry Christmas


63917
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martin2395
12-25-2014, 06:26 AM
Are this the cables you are talking about?

63902

Yes, they are. Nothing fancy, 1.5mm2 tinned copper but I like them more than expensive MIT's and Audioquests.
In Japan (where vintage JBL has a cult status) they are "the sh*t", also because they are used by Ken Shindo from Shindo Labs.

I heard that you can buy them from some Japanese marketplace like Rakuten dirt cheap for around $2.00 @ metre.

Though I never knew that the L200/L300 had a support for the driver, the 4343 doesn't have anything to support the 2420.

4343
12-25-2014, 02:20 PM
63743 Pass crossover... As stated already, splitting the HF and UHF portions onto a separate input allows bi-amping. I have been using the Pass crossover for a while now with similar components (2225H, 2461 on 2307, and 2405) and it works great! Especially with a big SS amp driving the lows and a smaller amp for the tweets. Am I missing something, I thought the L300 used the 2312 horn, not the 2307? 2307 will work, but I would leave room for the longer horn... http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1975-l300/page2.jpg http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1975-l300/page3.jpg http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1975-l300/page4.jpg

toddalin
12-25-2014, 02:37 PM
Though I never knew that the L200/L300 had a support for the driver, the 4343 doesn't have anything to support the 2420.


To my eye, it looks like the smaller 2410 driver too.

Murillo Moreira
12-25-2014, 08:27 PM
] Am I missing something, I thought the L300 used the 2312 horn, not the 2307? 2307 will work, but I would leave room for the longer horn...

You are right about the horn, the bigger the horn the smoother the response I think, also will sound less harsh, but that's what I have.

BMWCCA
12-25-2014, 09:06 PM
You are right about the horn, the bigger the horn the smoother the response I think, also will sound less harsh, but that's what I have.
I doubt smoothness is the only issue, since the 2307 is used in the 4345 and seems to work just fine. The longer horn may be more important when the horn is used as a mid-range rather than just a high-frequency element. The L300/4333 crosses it at 800-8,500 Hz where the 4-way's range is 1,300-10,000 Hz. :dont-know:

Murillo Moreira
12-25-2014, 09:06 PM
Looking at Mr. Pass notes on the crossover I came with something new, the crossover point he assumes is at 1000Hz not at 800Hz as the original, so at the end, maybe the 2307 be a good match...



The character of the woofer to midrange transition was more difficult. Looking at the curves


and schematic I made a guess that the original design had to contend with the prospect of


being driven to very high power levels. This is a potential problem concerning both the


distortion and reliability of the midrange compression driver, as this horn does not provide


much loading below 1 KHz.

The crossover network addresses this with a relatively high


crossover point at 1 KHz, with a fairly sharp slope. A similar approach is used in the


crossover characteristic between the midrange and the horn tweeter, with the high pass filter


having three poles. Initially I worked with variations around the original in-phase wiring of the midrange, but I
found it difficult to construct a filter which was flat at 1 KHz and also sounded as good as I

wanted. I think the difficulty revolved around the distance time delay of the midrange, which

can be clearly seen in a MLSSA pulse (that is to say there are two of them – one from the

woofer and tweeter and another from the midrange). Finally I began working with the

midrange phase flipped.

This is where I had to choose between faults. There is simply not an ideal complementary

match between the character of these two drivers. After some more experimenting, I worked

up my best compromise - a midrange high pass network which is different in the details and

response curve, but delivers most of the warmth, intimacy and articulation I was looking for.

This is where the instruments have a “float in the air quality” that takes the performance out of

the box and into your room.

(Nelson Pass)

63919

But I'm afraid it will made some errors at phase and aligment between the drivers... Of ocurse if I could have the 2312 would be better, but I'm afraid I can not find them easy...
But tell me folks, with the right dimensions of the 2312 can ask someone to build one for me? Here there are people who can made one by scratch if have the dimensions, Mr. Kenrick Sound make his with stainless steel and gold, cheap stuff...

63920

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63922

So where can I find the exact dimensions of the 2312?

Murillo Moreira
12-25-2014, 09:13 PM
I doubt smoothness is the only issue, since the 2307 is used in the 4345 and seems to work just fine. The longer horn may be more important when the horn is used as a mid-range rather than just a high-frequency element. The L300/4333 crosses it at 800-8,500 Hz where the 4-way's range is 1,300-10,000 Hz. :dont-know:

Fine, this is a new issue to the project. Fortunatelly I have you to alert me of this. There is a lot of maybe`s is the problem, maybe the 1k pass crossover can sound good, maybe there is not a phase problem, maybe, maybe... And as this project does not uses the original crossover, maybe it sound's awesome! but maybe I need the 2312 also. Thx again for the input.

Murillo Moreira
12-25-2014, 09:37 PM
The top and the bottom at least are the same :D

63923


63924

The 2312 is 293mm and the 2307 216mm. I will ask a friend to build one for me, just in case. He made pieces for the naval industry. He is also an audiophile, his name is Edmundo Barbosa, a very nice guy, but he do not use JBL:(, his system uses a Wilson Alexandria with 610T Audio Research amps, a dCS SACD and so on.

63925

Murillo Moreira
12-25-2014, 09:58 PM
I like 300s rolled off at 50 into a sub swarm.

Sorry but this is the last thing I would do with the L300, a sub bass integration with a speaker is a very hard thing to do, IMHO subs are for movies, not for music. Do you use an active crossover over them?
My experience with multiple subs, Earl Geddes aproach BTW, does not gives me good memories, my room is small, and I used with 4 subs with a dcx2496 plus two speakers diy from troelsgravensen (Jensen w/scan speak), after this I swap to a simpler system with just a B&W 801 matrix, no subs, now I 'm listeng music again, less is more.

audiomagnate
01-07-2015, 02:53 PM
Sorry but this is the last thing I would do with the L300, a sub bass integration with a speaker is a very hard thing to do, IMHO subs are for movies, not for music. Do you use an active crossover over them?
My experience with multiple subs, Earl Geddes aproach BTW, does not gives me good memories, my room is small, and I used with 4 subs with a dcx2496 plus two speakers diy from troelsgravensen (Jensen w/scan speak), after this I swap to a simpler system with just a B&W 801 matrix, no subs, now I 'm listeng music again, less is more.

Music goes WAY lower than 300's can put out. And sub integration isn't hard at all, especially these days. The real "secret" is a good sub. If you prefer colored, rolled off bass to extended accurate bass that's fine, but I sure don't. L300s sound better to me with a 50 Hz rolloff even without subs BTW. Stuffing the ports as NP recommends also helps quite a bit. I love the low distortion dynamics those 136a crank out, but not all that nasty box noise. I agree that 801s don't really need a sub, but that has absolutely nothing to do with L300s.

SEAWOLF97
01-07-2015, 04:05 PM
Music goes WAY lower than 300's can put out.

hmmm . tech sheets show FR of 32hz-20khz . What music do you think is WAY lower :dont-know:

if you are counting movie LFE's , it's hard to call that music.

the VERY lowest music freq that I can locate is: a concert piano is capable of 27.5 hz

Does MAYBE 4.5 hz lower on a certain piano constitute WAY lower ?

http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/frequency_e.html

toddalin
01-07-2015, 04:48 PM
Low "C" on a 32' organ pipe is 16 Hz, and there is a whole octave up to 32 Hz.

I would agree that a good sub does help L300s fill in the bottom end. And while L300s may be rated down to 32 Hz, where do you even see this listed and at what dB reduction?

SEAWOLF97
01-07-2015, 05:07 PM
I would agree that a good sub does help L300s fill in the bottom end. And while L300s may be rated down to 32 Hz, where do you even see this listed and at what dB reduction?

sub helps my 250ti's too, but really isn't needed, just desired.

check JBL's sheets for specs.

>>Low "C" on a 32' organ pipe is 16 Hz

and you listen to that ..how often ? is that music or just some specialized tone that you can only feel ?

Murillo Moreira
01-08-2015, 07:23 PM
Music goes WAY lower than 300's can put out. And sub integration isn't hard at all, especially these days. The real "secret" is a good sub. If you prefer colored, rolled off bass to extended accurate bass that's fine, but I sure don't. L300s sound better to me with a 50 Hz rolloff even without subs BTW. Stuffing the ports as NP recommends also helps quite a bit. I love the low distortion dynamics those 136a crank out, but not all that nasty box noise. I agree that 801s don't really need a sub, but that has absolutely nothing to do with L300s.

Maybe you are right about not using a quality sub, but I tested some SVS, Sunfire and Velodyne and none of them really got me, what you use?

Yes, B&W 801 are a different animal.

Murillo Moreira
01-08-2015, 07:41 PM
Surfing at the web I found these beautiful and nostalgic texts about the JBL history, maybe is in our library, but I would like to share...

64084

The other one is very intersting, "JBL - The History and Legacy of JBL (2006)" by Don McRitchie and Steve Schell. a 81 page article.
http://www.diyaudio.rs/JBL/JBL%20-%20The%20History%20and%20Legacy%20of%20JBL%20%2820 06%29.pdf

Also a JBL paper about cinema installation.

http://www.diyaudio.rs/JBL/JBL%20-%20Motion%20Picture%20Loudspeaker%20Systems%20-%20A%20Guide%20to%20Proper%20Selection%20and%20Ins tallation.pdf


They are from a Croatian website, I do not know if they are copyright protected, so please advise me if I have to remove them.

Good lecture to all you my JBL friends. God bless our brothers from France, they don't deserve these stupid terrorists acts, no one does.

Murillo Moreira
01-08-2015, 07:48 PM
sub helps my 250ti's too, but really isn't needed, just desired.

check JBL's sheets for specs.

>>Low "C" on a 32' organ pipe is 16 Hz

and you listen to that ..how often ? is that music or just some specialized tone that you can only feel ?

This is a long discussion, to sub or not to sub, that's the question...
It's one of these endless themes like tubes vs solid or analog vs digital, audio for music vs audio for movies... BTW, IMHO real audio goes only with Tubes, Analog, 2.0, but no subs, and of course a nice pair of JBL :applaud::applaud::applaud:

ivica
01-09-2015, 12:58 AM
Surfing at the web I found these beautiful and nostalgic texts about the JBL history, maybe is in our library, but I would like to share...


The other one is very intersting, "JBL - The History and Legacy of JBL (2006)" by Don McRitchie and Steve Schell. a 81 page article.
http://www.diyaudio.rs/JBL/JBL - The History and Legacy of JBL (2006).pdf

Also a JBL paper about cinema installation.

http://www.di (http://www.diyaudio.rs/JBL/JBL - Motion Picture Loudspeaker Systems - A Guide to Proper Selection and Installation.pdf)yaudio. (http://www.diyaudio.rs/JBL/JBL - Motion Picture Loudspeaker Systems - A Guide to Proper Selection and Installation.pdf)rs (http://www.diyaudio.rs/JBL/JBL%20-%20Motion%20Picture%20Loudspeaker%20Systems%20-%20A%20Guide%20to%20Proper%20Selection%20and%20Ins tallation.pdf)/JBL/JBL - Motion Picture Loudspeaker Systems - A Guide to Proper Selection and Installation.pdf (http://www.diyaudio.rs/JBL/JBL - Motion Picture Loudspeaker Systems - A Guide to Proper Selection and Installation.pdf)


They are from a Croatian website, I do not know if they are copyright protected, so please advise me if I have to remove them.

Good lecture to all you my JBL friends. God bless our brothers from France, they don't deserve these stupid terrorists acts, no one does.

Hi Murillo Moreira,

Many thanks for the info You have shown us, but I want to remind You that the mentioned web site :http://www.diyaudio.rs (http://www.diyaudio.rs/JBL/JBL%20-%20The%20History%20and%20Legacy%20of%20JBL%20%2820 06%29.pdf)
IS NOT CROATIAN, as You think , ( see: .RS not . HR ) but it is SERBIAN. May be, from your point of geography is the same, as someone can say that Brazil is almost the same as Argentina, but in reality it is not.

Regards
Ivica

ivica
01-09-2015, 01:01 AM
Low "C" on a 32' organ pipe is 16 Hz, and there is a whole octave up to 32 Hz.

I would agree that a good sub does help L300s fill in the bottom end. And while L300s may be rated down to 32 Hz, where do you even see this listed and at what dB reduction?

Hi toddalin,

Can You suggest me ANY audio MUSICAL recording ( LP or CD) where mentioned "C" has been recorded.

regards
ivica

hjames
01-09-2015, 04:02 AM
Low "C" on a 32' organ pipe is 16 Hz, and there is a whole octave up to 32 Hz.

I would agree that a good sub does help L300s fill in the bottom end. And while L300s may be rated down to 32 Hz, where do you even see this listed and at what dB reduction?

Hi toddalin,
Can You suggest me ANY audio MUSICAL recording ( LP or CD) where mentioned "C" has been recorded.
regards
ivica

I believe the "Pipes Rhode island" CD has that C ....

check out the track 10 - "Master Tallis's Testament", performed on the organ at S. Stephen's Church in Providence

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=175111

There are some great low moments on that CD ...

I recall reading about it in the Stereopile - perhaps referenced in an equipment review, but I can't find that review right now.
(Google says that in the February 2008 issue of Stereophile magazine there is a review by Larry Greenhill).


Also - see this thread -
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3566-Low-low-hertz-organ-music

Murillo Moreira
01-09-2015, 10:39 AM
Hi Murillo Moreira,

Many thanks for the info You have shown us, but I want to remind You that the mentioned web site :http://www.diyaudio.rs (http://www.diyaudio.rs/JBL/JBL - The History and Legacy of JBL (2006).pdf)
IS NOT CROATIAN, as You think , ( see: .RS not . HR ) but it is SERBIAN. May be, from your point of geography is the same, as someone can say that Brazil is almost the same as Argentina, but in reality it is not.

Regards
Ivica

Dear Ivica, my apologize and sorry for this terrible mistake. Yes Serbia is a incredible nation, also as Croatia, I wanna travel there someday to know these wonderful places. Also the most beautiful women are from there, hope you got one. :D

Murillo Moreira
01-09-2015, 10:47 AM
Hi toddalin,

Can You suggest me ANY audio MUSICAL recording ( LP or CD) where mentioned "C" has been recorded.

regards
ivica

Ivica, I've got that from a fellow at audioholics, the list is superb... If you look at rutraker.ru you may get the torrents. Send me a PM and I can give the torrents for you.


Recommended CDs:
Bass Outlaws: Illegal Bass [Newtown NTN2210]. Track 12 features ultra-loud bass in the low to sub 20Hz range.
Enya: Watermark [Geffen 242332-3]. Track 10, "The Longships," features bass from 20Hz to the low 30s.
Hindemith: Organ Works [Argo 417 159-2]. Track 5 at 4:45 features a 19Hz note that is 6dB louder than the highest level anywhere else on the disc.
Mendelssohn: Organ Works [Argo 414 420-2]. Extremely loud 19Hz tones on track 8 -- proceed with caution!
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition [Dorian DOR 90117]. Tracks 5 and 15 feature the best bass.
Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky [London 410 164-2]. 25Hz bass from the lowest-tuned conventionally-sized bass drum.
Reference Recordings HDCD Sampler[RR-S3CD]. Tracks 1 and 3 feature tight and gut-shaking drum strokes without overhang.
Respighi: Pines of Rome [London 410 145-2]. Track 4 at 1:22 and 2:29 features a pure 22Hz tone.
Saint-Saens: Organ Symphony [Philips 412 619-2]. Nine minutes into track 2 features deep bass down to16Hz.
Star Tracks II [Telarc CD80146]. Track 2 features extremely deep bass about one minute into the track.
Thom Rotella Band [DMP CD-650]. One minute into track 12 features a bass guitar solo that illustrates superb bass transients.
Jennifer Warnes: The Hunter [Private Music 01005-82089-2]. Tracks 8 and 9 feature loud, tight mid to low bass.
The Ruffatti Organ in Davis Symphony Hall [Telarc CD80097]. Tracks 1 and 11 feature sub-20Hz bass.

hjames
01-09-2015, 10:57 AM
Don't forget Boz Scaggs - Dig - the whole album features extremely low undertones -
http://smile.amazon.com/Dig-Boz-Scaggs/dp/B000NQQ4QK/
Harman used track 10, "Thanks to You" for one of the tracks in their Demo trailer when they brought it to Tyson's Corner VA a few years back.


Ivica, I've got that from a fellow at audioholics, the list is superb... If you look at rutraker.ru you may get the torrents. Send me a PM and I can give the torrents for you.


Recommended CDs:
Bass Outlaws: Illegal Bass [Newtown NTN2210]. Track 12 features ultra-loud bass in the low to sub 20Hz range.
Enya: Watermark [Geffen 242332-3]. Track 10, "The Longships," features bass from 20Hz to the low 30s.
Hindemith: Organ Works [Argo 417 159-2]. Track 5 at 4:45 features a 19Hz note that is 6dB louder than the highest level anywhere else on the disc.
Mendelssohn: Organ Works [Argo 414 420-2]. Extremely loud 19Hz tones on track 8 -- proceed with caution!
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition [Dorian DOR 90117]. Tracks 5 and 15 feature the best bass.
Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky [London 410 164-2]. 25Hz bass from the lowest-tuned conventionally-sized bass drum.
Reference Recordings HDCD Sampler[RR-S3CD]. Tracks 1 and 3 feature tight and gut-shaking drum strokes without overhang.
Respighi: Pines of Rome [London 410 145-2]. Track 4 at 1:22 and 2:29 features a pure 22Hz tone.
Saint-Saens: Organ Symphony [Philips 412 619-2]. Nine minutes into track 2 features deep bass down to16Hz.
Star Tracks II [Telarc CD80146]. Track 2 features extremely deep bass about one minute into the track.
Thom Rotella Band [DMP CD-650]. One minute into track 12 features a bass guitar solo that illustrates superb bass transients.
Jennifer Warnes: The Hunter [Private Music 01005-82089-2]. Tracks 8 and 9 feature loud, tight mid to low bass.
The Ruffatti Organ in Davis Symphony Hall [Telarc CD80097]. Tracks 1 and 11 feature sub-20Hz bass.

audiomagnate
01-09-2015, 01:15 PM
If you can do 24 bit, B-A-C-H on the 2011 Reference Recordings Sampler is a killer bass cut. I think the "C" in BACH refers to that 16 Hz pedal point. This one actually worries my dog when I turn it up.

SEAWOLF97
01-09-2015, 05:24 PM
.
but if you are a bass addict.

The Apocalypse Now Sessions is an album by Mickey Hart & the Rhythm Devils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythm_Devils). Subtitled The Rhythm Devils Play River Music,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apocalypse_Now_Sessions

the final cut ..."Napalm for Breakfast" , is a not so distant B-52 air strike that rattles things all over the house , even in the bathroom , with the door closed. :eek: ... doesn't get played often.

http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-apocalypse-now-sessions-mw0000202823#no-js

of course that sample doesn't contain the aforementioned passage, but you get the general feel.

Murillo Moreira
01-09-2015, 08:13 PM
.
but if you are a bass addict.

The Apocalypse Now Sessions is an album by Mickey Hart & the Rhythm Devils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythm_Devils). Subtitled The Rhythm Devils Play River Music,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apocalypse_Now_Sessions

the final cut ..."Napalm for Breakfast" , is a not so distant B-52 air strike that rattles things all over the house , even in the bathroom , with the door closed. :eek: ... doesn't get played often.

http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-apocalypse-now-sessions-mw0000202823#no-js

of course that sample doesn't contain the aforementioned passage, but you get the general feel.


haha!!! great input, this remembered me the version of Maiden of the initial words of this outstanding movie...

I've looked into the heart of darkness
Where the blood red journey ends
When you've faced the heart of darkness
Even your soul begins to bend

For a week I have been waiting
Still I am only in Saigon
The walls move in a little closer
I feel the jungle call me on

Every minute I get weaker
While in the jungle they grow strong
What I wanted was a mission
And for my sins they gave me one


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9WU57ovl5g

A TRUE CLASSIC.

Murillo Moreira
01-09-2015, 08:27 PM
Apocalypse Now (1979 (http://www.imdb.com/year/1979/?ref_=tt_ov_inf))





Captain Benjamin L. Willard (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0002963/?ref_=tt_cl_t2) (v.o.) "Saigon, shit. I'm still only in Saigon. Every time I think I'm going to wake up back in the jungle. When I was home after my first tour, it was worse. I'd wake up and there'd be nothing... I hardly said a word to my wife until I said yes to a divorce. When I was here I wanted to be there. When I was there, all I could think of was getting back into the jungle. I've been here a week now. Waiting for a mission, getting softer. Every minute I stay in this room I get weaker. And every minute Charlie squats in the bush he gets stronger. Each time I look around the walls move in a little tighter. Everyone gets everything he wants. I wanted a mission, and for my sins they gave me one. Brought it up to me like room service. "

Murillo Moreira
01-09-2015, 08:50 PM
Other recording I remember with deep, deep bass is the Telarc 1812 ouverture by Tchaicovsky. This gets down to 8Hz in LP. Be careful, not every cartridge can play this. MY Denon DL103 plays it easy.
Other 50 recordings with deep bass bellow.

From http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue55/bass.htm.

1. Dr. Chesky's Magnificent, Fabulous, Absurd & Insane Musical 5.1 Surround Show - Chesky SACD273 (Note - Check out the Heartbeats which decrease in frequency from 50Hz to 40Hz to 30Hz to 20Hz)
2. Elgar: Enigma Variations / Britten: Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra, Four Sea Interludes from "Peter Grimes" - Paavo Järvi, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60660
3. Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Moon - EMI 7243-582136-2
4. Terry Evans: Puttin' It Down - Audioquest Music AQ 1038 SACD
5. Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition, Night on Bald Mountain, Prelude to "Khovanshchina" - Paavo Järvi, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60705
6. Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture - Erich Kunzel, Cincinnati Pops Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60541
7. Britten's Orchestra - Michael Stern, Kansas City Symphony - Reference Recordings RR-120SACD
8. Christy Baron: Steppin' - Chesky SACD227
9. Exotic Dances from the Opera - Eiji Oue, Minnesota Orchestra - Reference Recordings RR-71SACD
10. Holst: Suite Nos. 1 & 2 / Handel: Music for Royal Fireworks / Stars and Stripes - Marches, Fanfares and Wind Band Spectaculars - Frederick Fennell, Cleveland Symphonic Winds - Telarc SACD-60639
11. Gottschalk: A Night in the Tropics, Grand Tarantelle for Piano and Orchestra, Gould: Latin American Symphonette - Maurice Abravanel, Utah Symphony Orchestra - Vanguard Classics VSD-500
12. Kodo: Mondo Head - Red Ink SACD 56111
13. Robert Hohner Percussion Ensemble: Far More Drums - DMP SACD-10
14. Virgil Thomson: The River, The Plow That Broke the Plains - Leopold Stokowski, The Symphony of the Air - Vanguard Classics VSD 501
15. Tutti! - Orchestral Sampler - Reference Recordings RR-906SACD
16. Britannia - Donald Runnicles, Atlanta Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60677
17. Holst: The Planets, Beni Mora, Japanese Suite - Andrew Davis, BBC Philharmonic, - Chandos CHSA-5086
18. Monty Meets Sly and Robbie - Monty Alexander, Sly Dunbar, Robbie Shakespeare - Telarc SACD-63494
19. Monty Alexander: Rocksteady - Telarc SACD-63581
20. Ray Brown, John Clayton, Christian McBride: SuperBass 2 - Telarc SACD-63483
21. Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique - Paavo Järvi, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60578
22. Jennifer Higdon: City Scape, Concerto for Orchestra - Robert Spano, Atlanta Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60620
23. Orff: Carmina Burana - Donald Runnicles, Atlanta Symphony Orchestra & Chorus - Telarc SACD-60575
24. Prokofiev: Romeo and Juliet Suites Nos. 1-3 - Paavo Järvi, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60597
25. Rainbow Body - Robert Spano, Atlanta Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60596
26. Music of Ravel - Paavo Järvi, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60601
27. Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring / Nielsen: Symphony No. 5 - Paavo Järvi, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60615
28. Turina: Danzas Fantasticas, Sinfonia Sevillana, La Procesion del Rocio / Debussy: Iberia - Jesus Lopez-Cobos, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60574
29. Monty Alexander: My America - Telarc SACD-63552
30. Debussy: Nocturnes, La Mer, Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun - Paavo Järvi, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra Telarc SACD-60617
31. Dukas: Sorcerer's Apprentice, La Péri, Symphony in C - Jesus Lopez-Cobos, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60515
32. Epics - Erich Kunzel, Cincinnati Pops Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60600
33. The Film Music of Jerry Goldsmith - Jerry Goldsmith, London Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60433
34. Great Film Fantasies - Erich Kunzel, Cincinnati Pops Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60664
35. Alan Hovhaness: Mysterious Mountains - Gerard Schwarz, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60604
36. Liszt: Dante Symphony, Tasso, Lamento e Trionfo - Leon Botstein, London Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60613
37. Masters & Commanders - Eric Kunzel, Cincinnati Pops Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60682
38. Mega Movies - Erich Kunzel, Cincinnati Pops Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60535
39. Michael Gandolfi: The Garden of Cosmic Speculation - Robert Spano, Atlanta Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60696
40. Prokofiev: Symphony No. 5, Lieutenant Kije - Paavo Järvi, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60683
41. Russian Nights - Erich Kunzel, Cincinnati Pops Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60657
42. Scary Music - Erich Kunzel, Cincinnati Pops Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60580
43. Stravinsky: Petrouchka, Firebird Suite, Scherzo a la Russe - Paavo Järvi, Cincinnatti Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60587
44. Tchaikovsky: Nutcracker (favorite selections) Eric Kunzel, Cincinnati Pops Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60674
45. Vintage Cinema - Erich Kunzel, Cincinnati Pops Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60708
46. Classics at the Pops - Erich Kunzel, Cincinnati Pops Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60595
47. Dupre, Franck & Widor: Organ Works - Michael Murray, The Organ at St. Sulpice - Telarc SACD-60516
48. Dvorak: Symphony No. 9 "New World" / Martinu: Symphony No. 2 - Paavo Järvi, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60616
49. The Symphonic Sound Stage, A Listener's Guide to the Art and Science of Recording the Orchestra - Delos / Top Music International TM-SACD9004.2

50. Bizet: Carmen Suites / Grieg: Peer Gynt Suite - Leonard Slatkin, Saint Louis Symphony Orchestra - Telarc SACD-60655

SEAWOLF97
01-10-2015, 09:10 AM
haha!!! great input, this remembered me the version of Maiden of the initial words of this outstanding movie...

I've looked into the heart of darkness....




Apocalypse Now (1979 (http://www.imdb.com/year/1979/?ref_=tt_ov_inf))


I wanted a mission, and for my sins they gave me one. Brought it up to me like room service. "

I think the "Napalm for breakfast" track was made to go with the ending (not in all versions of the film) , where
"Almighty" is called in to level the camp . Even on my sub , some is barely audible, sure can be felt tho.

Also had the 6 hour raw version of the movie (crew members face the camera and introduce themselves :blink:)
there is not yet narration , but soundtrack is many DOORS tunes.

Murillo Moreira
01-11-2015, 11:19 AM
Just picked up my old HK Citation II on the basement, wow!!! it's really bad, like the phoenix, will recap all and make it reborn.

64137

64138

64139

64140

64141

SEAWOLF97
01-11-2015, 12:19 PM
wow!!! it's really bad, like the phoenix, will recap all and make it reborn.



but, if you clean it up ...where will the rats & birds live now ? :dont-know:

Murillo Moreira
01-11-2015, 01:01 PM
but, if you clean it up ...where will the rats & birds live now ? :dont-know:

hahaha also the cockroaches...

Murillo Moreira
01-12-2015, 04:44 PM
First crossover build, Nelson Pass mod, bi-amp model.

64152

Murillo Moreira
01-12-2015, 05:29 PM
64155

64157

Murillo Moreira
01-12-2015, 05:54 PM
Cleared

audiomagnate
01-13-2015, 07:33 AM
I REALLY don't think this is the place to post links to illegal downloads (at least for us in the U.S.). Anyone attempting to download and play these stolen files should be EXTREMELY cautious about the malware that comes with most bit-torrent software installations, as well as the legal and ethical implications of downloading pirated music.


This material is not for commercial use and sale, just for the sake of 'bass' reproduction for my JBL friends with JBL speakers for testing. I wanna ask the moderator of the group to ERASE ALL this information after the users read. All records are in lossless format, most are SACDs.
LISTENER DISCRETION IS ADVISED.

audiomagnate
01-13-2015, 07:47 AM
First crossover build, Nelson Pass mod, bi-amp model.

64152

It looks great, but you might want to rotate the small coil 90 degrees to reduce the interaction with the other two larger coils. Coil interaction is a REAL phenomena, not subtle at all. Look at the layout of the crossovers in your 801s for guidance.

Murillo Moreira
01-13-2015, 01:46 PM
I REALLY don't think this is the place to post links to illegal downloads (at least for us in the U.S.). Anyone attempting to download and play these stolen files should be EXTREMELY cautious about the malware that comes with most bit-torrent software installations, as well as the legal and ethical implications of downloading pirated music.

Don't worry, NEVER will do it again, just did not thought that this could bring a lot of discussion as I stated earlier that the post was going to be deleted. Also IMHO, when you say "stolen files" I think is a little too much, sharing files over the internet is not very far from receiving friends at our home and let them record with their TDKs our vinyl collection, in the old days, and I'm sure you did that and would not called a stolen act that time. But this is a long discussion and I will not talk about it anymore.
Also, malware with bit-torrents software? never had any. Torrents are the TDKs MA-X of today. :dont-know:

Murillo Moreira
01-13-2015, 02:35 PM
It looks great, but you might want to rotate the small coil 90 degrees to reduce the interaction with the other two larger coils. Coil interaction is a REAL phenomena, not subtle at all. Look at the layout of the crossovers in your 801s for guidance.

Yes you are right again, thx for the precious info. Just correct it!

64162

64163

64164

Murillo Moreira
01-13-2015, 08:17 PM
Looking at Mr. Pass crossover I noticed that the Mids are connected inverted,

64170

Now I would like to know if I do this before or after the L-pads, or this not make any difference?

64171

grumpy
01-13-2015, 08:52 PM
It does not

Murillo Moreira
01-14-2015, 01:00 PM
Finally arrived!

64175

64176

64177

64178

As I said earlier I will make a 2312 based in this horn, JBL site shows that the 2307 is 216mm (as in my rule) and that 2312 is 293mm, all others dimension are equal, so I only have to add 77mm in the middle section.

Can I use aluminum?

Murillo Moreira
01-14-2015, 01:11 PM
It does not

thx man

grumpy
01-14-2015, 03:41 PM
so I only have to add 77mm in the middle section.

While not untrue, it is not a complete description of what would be needed for the design
to work properly.

A different exponential taper is required for the inside surface.

Perhaps this is obvious, but conceptually cutting a 2307 in half and adding a
77mm long cylindrical section (matching the cut section inner diameter),
would not a 2312 make. (I'm hoping you have a good laugh and agree).


Can I use aluminum?

Yes.

Murillo Moreira
01-14-2015, 06:32 PM
While not untrue, it is not a complete description of what would be needed for the design
to work properly.

A different exponential taper is required for the inside surface.

Perhaps this is obvious, but conceptually cutting a 2307 in half and adding a
77mm long cylindrical section (matching the cut section inner diameter),
would not a 2312 make. (I'm hoping you have a good laugh and agree).



Yes.

Thx for the input Grumpy, but you understood me wrong, or I was not clear enough, I will not cut the 2307!!! hell no!
I will only use it as a model for the top and bottom, the exponential tube I will make it the same as the 2312. As for the laugh, I agree with you, only an insane person would do that with a JBL horn. BTH, you look like a guitar player, but can't remember, are you from ZZ Top or something?
cheers

grumpy
01-14-2015, 06:34 PM
Very good :) carry on!

JeffW
01-14-2015, 06:56 PM
. BTH, you look like a guitar player, but can't remember, are you from ZZ Top or something?
cheers

He's a league bowler, man.

Murillo Moreira
01-14-2015, 07:04 PM
This duet can make the 300's really sing:

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Murillo Moreira
01-14-2015, 07:12 PM
this was from my old store of vintage audio gear. For 5 years hearing almost everything, nothing sounds good as a JBL vintage speaker and a good tube
preamp/amp with a phono analog setup.


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Murillo Moreira
01-14-2015, 07:24 PM
He's a league bowler, man.

Serious? :rockon1::rockon1::rockon1:

grumpy
01-14-2015, 07:37 PM
Then there's this guy... Lol.

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Murillo Moreira
01-14-2015, 07:50 PM
Then there's this guy... Lol.

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hahaha, this one I prefer in my TV, not in my JBLs...

ivica
01-15-2015, 01:27 AM
Thx for the input Grumpy, but you understood me wrong, or I was not clear enough, I will not cut the 2307!!! hell no!
I will only use it as a model for the top and bottom, the exponential tube I will make it the same as the 2312. As for the laugh, I agree with you, only an insane person would do that with a JBL horn. BTH, you look like a guitar player, but can't remember, are you from ZZ Top or something?
cheers

Hi Murillo Moreira,

I think that it would not be so easy to get 2312 internal horn flare curve, not to mention the price to produce the pair of 2312 like horn from aluminum.

regards
ivica

Murillo Moreira
01-16-2015, 05:51 PM
Hi Murillo Moreira,

I think that it would not be so easy to get 2312 internal horn flare curve, not to mention the price to produce the pair of 2312 like horn from aluminum.

regards
ivica

You are absolutely right, I send to my friend that do pieces for the naval industry and he told me that there is an internal angle in the horn, and that he was going to figure it out, but without the original 2312 it's really hard, if I get the right dimensions he can do the in aluminum and it's not cheap. I just have he 2307 to use as a model.
I would like to have someone to help me with this internal dimensions, I made a draw and there are letters that I would be pleased if some good soul give mes the exact width size in mm or explain me the right angle or exponential numbers to make it work.

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hjames
01-16-2015, 05:56 PM
Seems like it would just be cheaper to buy a pair of 2312 long horns.
They aren't that rare - Heck, I sold a pair late last summer!


You are absolutely right, I send to my friend that do pieces for the naval industry and he told me that there is an internal angle in the horn, and that he was going to figure it out, but without the original 2312 it's really hard, if I get the right dimensions he can do the in aluminum and it's not cheap. I just have he 2307 to use as a model.
I would like to have someone to help me with this internal dimensions, I made a draw and there are letters that I would be pleased if some good soul give mes the exact width size in mm or explain me the right angle or exponential numbers to make it work.

64243

Murillo Moreira
01-16-2015, 09:59 PM
For those who do not have, the JBL L300 Instruction Manual...

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Murillo Moreira
01-16-2015, 10:02 PM
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Murillo Moreira
01-16-2015, 10:03 PM
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Murillo Moreira
01-16-2015, 10:13 PM
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Murillo Moreira
01-16-2015, 10:15 PM
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Murillo Moreira
01-16-2015, 10:15 PM
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Murillo Moreira
01-17-2015, 09:43 PM
That good old days of audio...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HUURuA17n5E

Murillo Moreira
01-24-2015, 10:02 PM
Tanks ahead, infantary from behind, the battle has just begun...

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Murillo Moreira
07-21-2015, 01:56 PM
Finally finished the speakers!
Soon I will post some pictures.
I had one doubt about the mid, as I'm using the 2420 driver, and not the L300 original LE85, the impedance is different, 2405
is 16ohms and not 8. Does I habe to do some adjust at the xcross do deal with this? I'm using the Nelson Pass crossover version.

ivica
07-22-2015, 01:06 AM
Finally finished the speakers!
Soon I will post some pictures.
I had one doubt about the mid, as I'm using the 2420 driver, and not the L300 original LE85, the impedance is different, 2405
is 16ohms and not 8. Does I have to do some adjust at the xcross do deal with this? I'm using the Nelson Pass crossover version.

Hi Murillo Moreira,

I think that Le85 is almost the same as 2420 JBL drivers.
They are 16 Ohm drives , and as I know, any version of 2405/077 drivers are nominal 16 Ohms driver, so using mentioned network would be OK.
As network is designed for VHF (2420) driver to be used from 800Hz, one day I would recommend You to try 2441/2445/2446/2450 2-inch drivers ( with 4-inch diaphragm) using 2311 horn (the same size baffle hole, and screws as used 2311 horn with 2420), as , on my experience 2311 horn, can emphasize a kind of "ringing" while reproducing human voices.
I am not sure that using 2405 with 6dB/oct network would be the best solution, as mr.Nelson has done.

Regards
ivica

Murillo Moreira
07-22-2015, 12:54 PM
Thx Ivica for the information. I will tell about my impressions of the crossover after listen to it.
I will use my Marantz 8b amp to drive it, yes, it's not so much power (25w as I'm using in triode mode) but I think will sound good.
Initially I was thinking about bi-amping, but forget this idea because it's too complicated and I wanna make simple.
I also have other options for testing including a Sony TA-5650 V-Fet integrated amp (50W 8ohms per ch) and a Krell KAV-300IL (200W 8ohms per ch).

Murillo Moreira
07-22-2015, 04:36 PM
Testing the woofer today I noticed a strange thing. I drop a voltage from 1.5v battery for testing and the woofer went back, not foward! I reversed the polarity and it went foward, I suspected that was a crossover issue so I removed the speaker and connected directly, the same thing happened again, the woofer went back with the + red - black connection. It's a 2235H, is it normal?

Odd
07-22-2015, 09:29 PM
Yes, its normal.

Polarity JBL

Murillo Moreira
09-04-2015, 10:49 PM
Just finished the L300 and man, it sounds amazing! This Pass xover is really a great update, the sound is smooth and the dinamic is outstanding because of the excellent drivers performance. What a beautifull design!
I have a couple question about tuning...
1) What is the setting with presence and brilliance used most? I found 3-P and 7-B to be just fine but I would like to know if there is any method to achieve the best one.
2) How much of insulation does I have to install? Do I have to leave some empty space inside or just add enough insulation to fill it complete?

Cheers folks!

Murillo Moreira
09-04-2015, 10:49 PM
Yes, its normal.

Polarity JBL

Thx Odd!

Murillo Moreira
09-04-2015, 10:55 PM
I'm feeding them with my restored Citation II

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audiomagnate
09-05-2015, 12:41 AM
I'm feeding them with my restored Citation II

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I had one of those in high school. Paid $50 at the Opus One used bin on Smithfield Street in downtown Pittsburgh. That's a great amp, but I would need something with a little more slam potential these days, at least on the woofer.

I stuffed my ports pretty solid with Acoustistuff, and suck a cheap poly bed pillow in each cabinet, but then I electronically rolled mine off at fifty into a sub swarm, so your mileage WILL vary. IMO, the bass seemed significantly cleaner after these easily reversible "mods," but as Fat Bastard says, "we all live or own brand." L300s are an amazingly satisfying speaker, modded on not.

Odd
09-05-2015, 09:19 AM
Cabinet stuff (stuffing) (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?237-Cabinet-stuff-%28stuffing%29)

See post 6

L300 (http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1975-l300/page3.jpg)

Murillo Moreira
09-07-2015, 04:31 PM
I had one of those in high school. Paid $50 at the Opus One used bin on Smithfield Street in downtown Pittsburgh. That's a great amp, but I would need something with a little more slam potential these days, at least on the woofer.

I stuffed my ports pretty solid with Acoustistuff, and suck a cheap poly bed pillow in each cabinet, but then I electronically rolled mine off at fifty into a sub swarm, so your mileage WILL vary. IMO, the bass seemed significantly cleaner after these easily reversible "mods," but as Fat Bastard says, "we all live or own brand." L300s are an amazingly satisfying speaker, modded on not.

You are right, a more robust amp for the bass is adequade. But for mid-highs the citation is a champ! Can you recommend some high power amp for biamping? I saw some modern crown ones but they have a ventilation system that's is very noisy.

Murillo Moreira
09-07-2015, 04:32 PM
Cabinet stuff (stuffing) (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?237-Cabinet-stuff-%28stuffing%29)

See post 6

L300 (http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1975-l300/page3.jpg)

Thx, I think I putted too much fiberglass inside, I noticed that at the bottom there is almost none, I will try to do as close to the original as I can.

Murillo Moreira
09-08-2015, 04:15 PM
I just bought this Crown amp, I was going for the 2500 one (500W per/ch) but I saw the 2235 specs and it's a 300W max. power so I went for the 330W one.
it's not expensive so maybe it works.
Also it has adjustable gain, so it will be easier to match with the Citation II amp. The HK input sensitivity is 1.5V, the Crown can be adjustable between 0.775V and 1.4V.
I had tested my B&W801 with two amps (Marantz 8b at top and Krell KAV-300il at lows) and it did not worked as I want.
The bass was too much higher and I had to use a L-pad to match them.
I really think that the best-of-both-worlds kind of aproach is using a tube amp for the mid and high and a high current solid state for the low.
The Harman Kardon Citation II tube amp ihas a dampening factor of 16, the Crown is >200! So the difference is huge.


Crown XLi 1500
Class AB


330W RMS/ch 8 ohms
450W RMS/ch 4 ohms



Frequency Response
20 Hz - 20 kHz, +0/-1 dB (at 1 watt)


THD
<0.5%, 20 Hz - 20 kHz


Intermodulation Distortion
=/ <0.35% (60 Hz and 7 kHz at 4:1 from full rated ouput to -30 dB)


Slew Rate
>10V/us


Voltage Gain
31 dB


Damping Factor
(8 ohms, 10 Hz to 400 Hz) >200


Signal To Noise Ratio (A-weighted)
>100 dB


Crosstalk (below rated power) 20 Hz to 1 kHz
-75 dB, -59 dB


Input Sensitivity
(for full rated power at 8 ohms) 0.775V or 1.4V


Input Impedance (nominal balanced, unbalanced)
20kΩ, 10kΩ


AC Line Voltage and Frequency Configurations Available
(+10%) 120V~60 Hz; 220V~50/60 Hz; 230-240V~50/60 Hz


Dimensions
19" x 3.5" x 12.4" (48.3cm x 8.9cm x 31.5cm)


Weight
28lbs (12.7kg)


IEC Power Connector
15A





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richluvsound
09-09-2015, 03:06 AM
You will need an active crossover to bi-amp.... ! Not sure what youre trying to accomplish ?

Rich

Murillo Moreira
09-09-2015, 09:17 AM
Not necessarely, I can easily split the L300 crossover on two sections, one for the woofer and other for the mids-highs.
Also, active crossover is very hard to adjust only by ear, I have a DCX2496 and had tried this on another project and its not easy.

Murillo Moreira
09-09-2015, 08:37 PM
After listening to a lot of different gear with the L300 I concluded:

1 - Tube amplification is a must for the mid-high session. :D

2 - A high current solid state is preferred to the lows. :confused:

3 - Bi-amping these speakers make it really shines :applaud:

Amps I tested:
Mcintosh 2205 Solid State(Awesome bass, mids and highs... not so much) +++
BAT VK500 Solid State ++
Marantz 140 Solid State ++
Sony V-Fet 5650 Solid State (good in all frequencies, but not good enough...) +++
Luxman RA-1050 Solid State A transistor sound that can not stay in piece with the LE85 ++
Krell KAV-300il Solid State(a nightmare) +
Bryston 4BST Solid State (a home theather kind of sound) +
Crown XLi 1500 (Awesome bass, just that) +++
Cary 805 Tube (ok, now it starts to sing... but lack of bass) ++++
Marantz 8B Tube (oh my god! it's full of stars!!!) ++++1/2
HarmanKardon Citation II Tube w/ Gold Lion GENALEX KT88 (now it really shines!!! yes, BASS, MIDS and HIGHS) +++++


Preamps
BAT VK5 Tube +++
Marantz 7T Solid State +++++
Classic 9.0 Tube ++
Sony V-fet 5650 Solid State ++++
Krell KAV-300il Solid State +
Yamaha C-65 Solid State -+ (one of the worst preamps I ever heard, maybe the speaker did not match with it, it cant be that bad)


So it's not hard to imagine my final system:
Marantz 7T premp
Harman Kardon Citation II Tube (mid, high)
Crown Xli 1500 (low)
:jawdrop:
bellow the crossover schem for bi-amplification.

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Mr. Widget
09-10-2015, 08:21 AM
So it's not hard to imagine my final system:
Marantz 7T premp
Harman Kardon Citation II Tube (mid, high)
Crown Xli 1500 (low)
I recommend you track down a Marantz 7 or Marantz 7c as they are frequently referred to. I have had both the SS and tube versions and while they look very similar, the tube version is significantly smoother sounding with more depth and just plain awesomeness.


Widget

Murillo Moreira
09-10-2015, 10:15 AM
I recommend you track down a Marantz 7 or Marantz 7c as they are frequently referred to. I have had both the SS and tube versions and while they look very similar, the tube version is significantly smoother sounding with more depth and just plain awesomeness.


Widget

Thx for the input Widget! Problem is that 7C is $$$$$ for me. I heard it once, and I agree with you, it's a f****** preamp!

Murillo Moreira
09-14-2015, 11:06 PM
Finally tested the Crown with the L300 woofer in a bi-amp aproach and the Citation II with the mid and high section and that's amazing!
The speaker is much more controlled, with better bass response and less distortion. Also it's a lot more dynamic.
I saw the sensitivity of the drivers and noticed that the LE85 is 118dB and 077 108dB, but with the Pass Crossover version I assume they are equal, 108dB for both, as the high frequency network uses only a capacitor, no resistance.
The horn section uses 2 16ohms parallel, so total 8 ohms as a single resistor is series, that gives me about 3,5dB attenuation over the LE85... so if I let the L-pad at full clock position it will give me ˜115db/1W? and the tweeter 108dB/1W at full also?
I'm asking this because I'm planning to use my Citation on triode mode, (30W per ch instead of 60W in pentode) and I'm wondering if 30W it's plenty of power for the mid/high section, as the woofer is working with 330W!

ivica
09-15-2015, 12:55 AM
Finally tested the Crown with the L300 woofer in a bi-amp aproach and the Citation II with the mid and high section and that's amazing!
The speaker is much more controlled, with better bass response and less distortion. Also it's a lot more dynamic.
I saw the sensitivity of the drivers and noticed that the LE85 is 118dB and 077 108dB, but with the Pass Crossover version I assume they are equal, 108dB for both, as the high frequency network uses only a capacitor, no resistance.
The horn section uses 2 16ohms parallel, so total 8 ohms as a single resistor is series, that gives me about 3,5dB attenuation over the LE85... so if I let the L-pad at full clock position it will give me ˜115db/1W? and the tweeter 108dB/1W at full also?
I'm asking this because I'm planning to use my Citation on triode mode, (30W per ch instead of 60W in pentode) and I'm wondering if 30W it's plenty of power for the mid/high section, as the woofer is working with 330W!

Hi Murillo Moreira,

As I have remembered, 2420+2312+2308 combo has sensitivity of about SPL 108 dB/1W/1m that would be voltage about 4Veff (as the driver is 16 Ohms).
For 077/2405 I think sensitivity is about 105dB/1W/1m, believing that the same voltage applied.
I would expect about 15 losses while L-pad in center position for LE85, and about 6-9 dB losses for 077, reaching 93-95 dB/1m while applying 2.83Veff , as L300 nominal sensitivity is about 93dB/1m/2.83Veff

regrads
ivica

Mannermusic
09-15-2015, 06:54 AM
I recommend you track down a Marantz 7 or Marantz 7c as they are frequently referred to. I have had both the SS and tube versions and while they look very similar, the tube version is significantly smoother sounding with more depth and just plain awesomeness.


Widget

+1! This stuff is 55 years old! Mine is sitting on the shelf needing help. Is yours refurbished? Recommendations? How are your selenium rectifiers, etc. I pretty much have given up on resurrecting this old stuff - never sounds quite right. Thots? Mike

Murillo Moreira
09-15-2015, 09:43 AM
Hi Murillo Moreira,

As I have remembered, 2420+2312+2308 combo has sensitivity of about SPL 108 dB/1W/1m that would be voltage about 4Veff (as the driver is 16 Ohms).
For 077/2405 I think sensitivity is about 105dB/1W/1m, believing that the same voltage applied.
I would expect about 15 losses while L-pad in center position for LE85, and about 6-9 dB losses for 077, reaching 93-95 dB/1m while applying 2.83Veff , as L300 nominal sensitivity is about 93dB/1m/2.83Veff

regrads
ivica

Thx ivica, so you think a 30W amp can work very well with the mid-high part?

Odd
09-15-2015, 10:05 AM
It is more than enough for home use

I use a Pass Labs 10 Watt for 2123-2450-2405

martin2395
09-15-2015, 01:26 PM
I used 8W ECL82 PP mono's and they went loud as hell on 2123/2450/2405 with cc'ed 3155's.

Mr. Widget
09-15-2015, 01:56 PM
+1! This stuff is 55 years old! Mine is sitting on the shelf needing help. Is yours refurbished? Recommendations? How are your selenium rectifiers, etc. I pretty much have given up on resurrecting this old stuff - never sounds quite right. Thots? MikeThe Marantz 7 I have is an early production model and may have been updated or serviced by the previous owner. I've owned it for five or more years and have done little more than change a tube or two. It is still very quiet for a tube preamp and sounds amazingly good especially when you consider it's vintage and age.


Widget

Mannermusic
09-15-2015, 05:27 PM
The Marantz 7 I have is an early production model and may have been updated or serviced by the previous owner. I've owned it for five or more years and have done little more than change a tube or two. It is still very quiet for a tube preamp and sounds amazingly good especially when you consider it's vintage and age.


Widget

Sounds like it was well cared for with minimal use - connectors still good. All the pots get noisy with time as well. Deoxit is your friend. My socket voltages look good so I guess it's mainly a matter of replacing all the pots and connectors. Thanks for the feedback.

Murillo Moreira
09-22-2015, 05:45 PM
I wanna thank all you guys that helped me to build this incredible speaker, audiomagnate, DavidF, Sepperi, odd, crestwood23, Mr. Widget, and many others...
Without your help I would not acomplish this task.
The L300 is a magical speaker.
I'm using a solid state to the bass and a tube amp for the mid-highs and the result is just fantastic!
I tried to use my tube amp on triode but I've found that to get the best of it, the ultralinear 60W for the 2420 and 2405 is just the best, now it's really dinamic and musical.

Thank you audioheritage.org, this is the JBL paradise!!!

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Murillo Moreira
09-22-2015, 11:09 PM
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Murillo Moreira
09-29-2015, 10:41 AM
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