2216Nd Projects

[4313B]

I received some information on the M2 enclosure design yesterday and thought I would post it here.

2216Nd in M2 enclosure:
Vb = 130 liters
Fb = 27 Hz

One of the guys made the attachment up for me yesterday and it shows two PEQ points in the FILTERS section to the lower right. Please don't confuse this simulation with the actual DSP applied to the M2 system using the Crowns.

I have also attached the S4700 EDS for reference.

2216Nd in S4700 enclosure:
Vb = 135 liters
Fb = 32 Hz

Finally, I have attached the 2216Nd EDS.

[pos]

Very interesting, thank you!

I thought the M2 was tuned around 21Hz.
The enclosure design shows a +8dB eq at the 27Hz tuning frequency, whereas the M2 crossover has a +4.7dB eq at 21.5Hz (and an addition shelving).

Interesting read also about the S4700. Definitely a nice and well behaved system!
The passive crossover voltage curves are a good complement to the active curves from GT you posted last year: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?35028-S3900-S4700-dbx-DriveRack-260&p=354856&viewfull=1#post354856

[4313B]

I thought the M2 was tuned around 21Hz.
The enclosure design shows a +8dB eq at the 27Hz tuning frequency, whereas the M2 crossover has a +4.7dB eq at 21.5Hz (and an addition shelving).Yes, the actual system seems to come out a lot better than the simulation. :)

[4313B]

RobH3606 received the very first pair of 2216Nd's (M2, S4700) courtesy of Jerry Moro.

pos and I should have a lot of fun with these. These drivers are ridiculously good. I kind of feel bad about making fun of their 3-inch voice coils early on. ;) Obviously Jerry knew exactly what he was doing. :yes:

I haven't decided yet if I am going to keep two pair, it is awfully tempting to build a pair of 4435-style enclosures for home theater use. The best waveguide that I have at present is the PT-H1010, pretty much a bolt-in for the older 2344.

Hopefully pos will post about his impending project.

[grumpy]

Fun, fun, fun, (fun) :)

[bubbleboy76]

RobH3606 received the very first pair of 2216Nd's (M2, S4700) courtesy of Jerry Moro.

pos and I should have a lot of fun with these. These drivers are ridiculously good. I kind of feel bad about making fun of their 3-inch voice coils early on. ;) Obviously Jerry knew exactly what he was doing. :yes:

I haven't decided yet if I am going to keep two pair, it is awfully tempting to build a pair of 4435-style enclosures for home theater use. The best waveguide that I have at present is the PT-H1010, pretty much a bolt-in for the older 2344.

Hopefully pos will post about his impending project.

This will be fun!

Are they better than 1501AL? Or in between 1501AL and 1501fe in performance?

What is the price of those things? Priceless?!

I am interested if you will sell some.

[ivica]

RobH3606 received the very first pair of 2216Nd's (M2, S4700) courtesy of Jerry Moro.

pos and I should have a lot of fun with these. These drivers are ridiculously good. I kind of feel bad about making fun of their 3-inch voice coils early on. ;) Obviously Jerry knew exactly what he was doing. :yes:

I haven't decided yet if I am going to keep two pair, it is awfully tempting to build a pair of 4435-style enclosures for home theater use. The best waveguide that I have at present is the PT-H1010, pretty much a bolt-in for the older 2344.

Hopefully pos will post about his impending project.
Hi 4313B,

interesting project. I can imagind that 2216 can be very good low mid bass driver. what would be crossover freuency when using PT-H1010, if You want to use with 2216. I can say around 1kHz. But for low bass section, and UHF, any suggestion?

regards
ivica

[4313B]

Have you start some of your projects?I have not been nearly as productive as I had wanted with respect to loudspeaker projects this summer. I haven't finished drawing up plans for some M2 enclosure clones. I have managed to veneer and finish my 4338/4365/Everest II hybrids. Hopefully I will be able to load the components this weekend.

I mention Everest II only because all the components are DD67000 components, including the passive filters (formerly 4365 filters).

Not a very impressive iPhone photo.

[pos]

Wow, those are really nice looking, better looking than the original 4365 IMO.
Is it a blue baffle? (can't really tell on the photo, at least on my old laptop screen)

[hlaari]

They look great!
nice veneer and blue front baffle, do you also have the original 4338 grill for them?

I have collect most of the parts for my 4365 project except H4365 horns but I hope to get them soon

[Mr. Widget]

I have not been nearly as productive as I had wanted with respect to loudspeaker projects this summer.Well, you've been 10,000% more productive than I have been. :banghead:

They're looking pretty good from here!


Widget

[NickH]

Hey that's some nice work. You've been much more productive then me too.

Iphone seem to do a pretty decent job a photography. Being a photography junkie I don't like to admit that, but they do.

Nick

[grumpy]

Looking good :thmbsup:

[4313B]

Thanks guys :)


nice veneer and blue front baffle, do you also have the original 4338 grill for them?I bought the walnut veneer from Oakwood Veneer which has become my new go-to place after Mr. Widget recommended them years ago.
I do have the original 4338 grilles. They are to the side in the photo above.
The baffles are indeed blue as per the formula Bo provided for us years ago. :)

They are too heavy and I am not looking forward to all the weight they will gain with the addition of the components.


I have collect most of the parts for my 4365 project except H4365 horns but I hope to get them soonI think that you will like them.
A lot! ;)

[bubbleboy76]

I have not been nearly as productive as I had wanted with respect to loudspeaker projects this summer. I haven't finished drawing up plans for some M2 enclosure clones. I have managed to veneer and finish my 4338/4365/Everest II hybrids. Hopefully I will be able to load the components this weekend.

I mention Everest II only because all the components are DD67000 components, including the passive filters (formerly 4365 filters).

Not a very impressive iPhone photo.

Are you sure the left one should have that small woofer?
;)

[4313B]

Are you sure the left one should have that small woofer?
;):banghead:

I knew something didn't look quite right! :crying:

[bubbleboy76]

There seems to be a little hype around these 2216Nd drivers. I am not doubting they are good, I have myself heard the K2 S4700 at it was amazing. But looking at the technical specification, 2216Nd has more distorsion and more rising frequency response than 1501al and 1501fe.
So what is it making the 2216Nd the "thing to have" right now? price/sound ratio? radiation pattern? Some other sound quality not shown in specifications, but can be heard?

[Aaron]

In the past the LE10-H got praise mostly because it had no really nasty faults...that's it. I suspect this new beast will be more of the same. A driver that commits no major sins at all will probably make for a pleasant listening experience. It may not the best in any particular way, but I think you could call it very well optimized.

[grumpy]

Reduced dynamic compression.

[gibber]

Reduced dynamic compression.

There's two aspects to dynamic compression, i believe.

In a large level scale context, most modern designs tend to be much better than the units they replace. Some say this started with SFG ferrites taking over from the earlier alnico's, but i actually believe it was most visible (sorry: audible) during the time when one to the next ferrite/neo iteration was done, just compare 2225 to 2226 at ++ volume.

Second aspect is small scale or "inner" dynamic contrast. It is my (entirely personal) feeling that the newer high power coils and cones do swallow a lot of fine detail IF -big if- you don't use the large scale benefits. Because if you do, those will outshine (sorry: outsound) the benefits in inner dynamics the lighter coils / lighter cones do in my opinion have [i also interpret Aaron's "no major sins" comment this way, the newer structures tend to swallow fine detail + fine dynamics and avoid sharp breakups plus yield extra reliability in exchange].

2216Nd can perhaps combine both benefits by going for a smaller / lighter 3" coil. I have no access to this engineering miracle, hope you can post on how it sounds when you get it.

Ralph

[1audiohack]

HA!

gibber, a friend and I had this exact conversation yesterday evening and I nearly spoke your last post verbatim.

I don't know if we are right but, we sure think alike. :)

Barry.

[bubbleboy76]

Reduced dynamic compression.

Can that be seen in the specs?

[srm51555]

So what is it making the 2216Nd the "thing to have" right now? price/sound ratio? radiation pattern? Some other sound quality not shown in specifications, but can be heard?

For me it was the availability of the transducer and DSP settings already worked out by JBL, but mostly the availability http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif.

[4313B]

For me it was the availability of the transducer and DSP settings already worked out by JBL, but mostly the availability http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif.Those are really big pluses. :)

The 2216Nd seems unique in that I haven't heard a single bad thing about it from anyone at JBL. It is the current "darling", maybe because virtually anyone working there can actually lift it without dropping it or hurting themselves? It could be interesting to see what else occurs. Rumor was that there might be a twelve-inch version as well as another fifteen-inch version with a lower Fs.



Now that my 1501AL-2 project is finally complete I can start on my 2216Nd project.

These things are too heavy and I just can't seem to be able to escape the fifteen-inch JBL in the five cubic foot box syndrome. The M2 clones will be just as big and heavy, well, thirty pounds lighter if only because of the 2216Nd neo.

[1audiohack]

Those are gorgeous.

Did you make the grills?

Thank you,
Barry.

[Don C]

Beautiful. Better than factory made.

[bubbleboy76]

Looks amazing!

[Ed Zeppeli]

Goyjus! I like the angle on the grills.

[Mr. Widget]

Now that my 1501AL-2 project is finally complete I can start on my 2216Nd project.Beautiful! Congratulations on a job well done!!


Widget

[Ed Zeppeli]

Ok, so who has done a project with their 2216nds so far? ....or are they still 'in transit'?


Warren

[Jakob]

I finally got mine earlier this week. Will try to find the time this weekend to replace my ME150H with these. I noticed some things about the 2216nd when looking at them but I could be wrong:
Compared to the ME150h the dust cap seem a bit taller. The outer diameter seem to be slightly larger (not counting the rubber lip) and the cone is not straight sided but seems curved. More as you get closer to the spider. If some one with greater knowledge could confirm this?

[bubbleboy76]

How long time did it take from order to delivery, Jakob?

Am I understanding this correctly, you are building M2 clones and live in the same city as me?! I would very much like to listen to it when you are finished.
You are welcome to listen to my active 4365s if you want.

[Jakob]

How long time did it take from order to delivery, Jakob?

Am I understanding this correctly, you are building M2 clones and live in the same city as me?! I would very much like to listen to it when you are finished.
You are welcome to listen to my active 4365s if you want.

I ordered mine in May. These has as you probably know gone on and off the availability list and at first it wasn't sure that these would be available as non replacement parts. Now they seem though:)



Thank you fo your offer but my avatar is not up to date unfortunately; I haven't lived in Gothenburg for 5 years now. Nice town nonetheless and I bet your 4365's sound great. I like the white look!

Yes the plan is a M2 look-a-like. Not sure about the D2 yet. I'm using the M2 wg with 2451 with SL diaphrams and are quite happy with that. I'm not sure what would be the best upgrade; D2 or Truextents in the 2451?

[withTarragon]

Yes, this is an older thread, but an interesting one.

Did many, or any, of these projects come to fruition?
I am guessing folks probably used ported cabinets with internal volumes between 130-145 liters and vent tuning between the mid-20s to the low-30's Hz. My guesses are driven by specs for the M2 cabinet and the S-4700 cabinet. I don't know of any other cabinets that use the original 2216-nd woofer.

Please share what you found or measured or photographed. I am quite interested since I recently received a pair of these woofers. They need a good home.

Thanks,
-Tom

[Robh3606]

Place Holder


Robh :)

[srm51555]

:lurk:

This should be fun

[Robh3606]

Well it's official just got the balance of the materials for my cabinets at Home Depot. Figured I had better get them now before they get locked down with the corona closings. They are talking about a 12 day shelter at home quarantine for NYC. If we get the same that should do it easy time wise at least I have something to do to keep busy. Hope the weather holds!

So 12 X 2' x 4' by 3/4 MDF. 4 3" x 8' corner rounds plus 32 board ft of 2"x 3" and 1"x 2" and 2 4" Precision Ports! Saw starts on Friday!

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

Well it's official just got the balance of the materials for my cabinets at Home Depot. Figured I had better get them now before they get locked down with the corona closings. They are talking about a 12 day shelter at home quarantine for NYC. If we get the same that should do it easy time wise at least I have something to do to keep busy. Hope the weather holds!

So 12 X 2' x 4' by 3/4 MDF. 4 3" x 8' corner rounds plus 32 board ft of 2"x 3" and 1"x 2" and 2 4" Precision Ports! Saw starts on Friday!

Rob:)And what exactly are you building?


Widget

[Robh3606]

And what exactly are you building?

Hello Widget

I have a pair of 2216Nd's so I am going to build a bottom cabinet same volume as a 4700 system. Tuning TBD. Similar to the Le-14H-3 bases I built for my Arrays. I also have 476Mg's and M2 horns that will be in a separate removable cabinet. Going to be a passive set-up.

Plan is to set-it up so I can switch tops if I want. I had the same idea when I built the Array bottoms. I still have my L250 Jubilee and XPL-200 tops and drivers for 4315 tops as well. Those would be a simple active bi-amp. So lots a plans lets see how it works out. My gut is telling me once I get the M2 tops done I will be done. Same as when I did the Arrays.

Rob:)

[rusty jefferson]

Perhaps a dedicated "Here's what I did during the Covid outbreak" thread?

[Robh3606]

"Here's what I did during the Covid outbreak"

As opposed too "Here's what I did on my summer vacation"!!!! Well if we all have some forced time off that may not be a bad idea. Beats wasting the time and doing nothing or watching sports reruns and streaming movies all day.

Rob:)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Rob,

Have you considered a larger enclosure?

The 4700 enclosure volume was probably a marketing limit on the size.

I recall when I looked at it the 150+ Litres delivered more low end extension with or without boost.

If you going to place the enclosure close to a wall you might consider a banana curve tuning with a lowish Fb around 25-27 hertz

Greg seems to approach tuning (diy) with the largest possible enclosure and a low tuning 27-32 hertz.

[Robh3606]

Hello Ian

Yes I looked at it but I didn't see a worth while improvement going bigger compared to using a bump filter. I reversed and found a smaller box sweet spot using the bump filter I had available in the DSP in my preamp.

I have a banana curve built into basic box curve Red hard to see. My Fb is 26hz. If I add 6db I get essentially flat response F3 @ 25Hz or I can drop it down 1db at a time to just the box in room. I have a lot of adjustment possible using this scenario.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

Questions for you DIY types with real world experience with the 2216Nd... after my off the wall suggestion Rob (sebackman) to try to EQ the snot out of the 2216Nd for sub use, I pulled up this old thread.

While the 2216Nd is definitely not a true sub, it looks like it will certainly get well below 30Hz with authority and in my listening to the M2 with factory calibration, being most impressed with the LF I am curious what you guys have found the lower limits to be. What tunings and enclosure volumes are you guys using?

Just thinking of potential projects and that I should get a pair of the 2216Nds before the fine folks at JBL make this wonderful woofer NLA.


Widget

[turnitdown]

If the 2216Nds can play to the low 30s (32 to 34) in the correct box what would the size of the box be? I don't want to augment with EQ if possible. I don't trust my skills at plugging the T/S into WinIsd. Thanks.

[pos]

Questions for you DIY types with real world experience with the 2216Nd... after my off the wall suggestion Rob (sebackman) to try to EQ the snot out of the 2216Nd for sub use, I pulled up this old thread.

While the 2216Nd is definitely not a true sub, it looks like it will certainly get well below 30Hz with authority and in my listening to the M2 with factory calibration, being most impressed with the LF I am curious what you guys have found the lower limits to be. What tunings and enclosure volumes are you guys using?



I've never tried it as a sub myself.
There are probably cheaper options out there to use as subs, and arguably better for high SPL or to go very low (both of which are probably of no use for music at home).

There is one thing I think the 2216nd would be very good at: accompanying another 2216nd as a "flanking sub".
I think this is a term Wayne Parham from Pi Speakers first came up with, and is pretty similar to what JBL does in the 4435: a helper woofer.
Basically an additional woofer put close to the existing one that plays together (and in a similar alignment) with the main one, going as high as possible and stopping just before it can be located as a different source.

IIRC integrating an additional 2216nd with an M2 is theoretically very straightforward: you basically put a 1st order LP at around 100Hz on it, and remove the shelving filter from the LF crossover section of the M2.
It is almost like it was meant to be done :D

EDIT: If this was not obvious enough, I am just trying to help you find an excuse to buy a pair ;)

[Robh3606]

Questions for you DIY types with real world experience with the 2216Nd... after my off the wall suggestion Rob (sebackman) to try to EQ the snot out of the 2216Nd for sub use, I pulled up this old thread.

While the 2216Nd is definitely not a true sub, it looks like it will certainly get well below 30Hz with authority and in my listening to the M2 with factory calibration, being most impressed with the LF I am curious what you guys have found the lower limits to be. What tunings and enclosure volumes are you guys using?

Just thinking of potential projects and that I should get a pair of the 2216Nds before the fine folks at JBL make this wonderful woofer NLA.


Widget

Hello Widget

I have them in the same alignment as the B380. The box is low tuned to 26Hz with EQ Q2 26Hz +6db. Doing a sine sweep useable in room to 20Hz where the sweep stops. My f3 is 25Hz using the full +6 and have a +3 preset as well. So 0 +3 and +6. For music I can't see ever running into an issue.

For LFE?? Depends on how low, levels and room size.

They are darn good but just going back to using 2 B380's and ringing the mass rings on Tron and Master and Commander. Ended up using a pair of Vertec 2266 woofers with greater X max no issues smaller boxes.

If you already have a pair you can try them and see.

If you don't I would look at a real sub driver instead of dropping $800 on another pair for a could be.

Rob :)

[Mr. Widget]

EDIT: If this was not obvious enough, I am just trying to help you find an excuse to buy a pair ;)I like your thinking! :D

I haven't worked on any new DIY projects in over 15 years. I have plans to build a pair of vintage styled L300s in L200 enclosures with a bump out for the 2312 horn. They will be bi or tri-amped, controlled by DSP, and will most certainly not be an ultimate sonic statement, but something I want to do for the fun of it. Since mint 136A/2231As are not in my collection and finding or recreating a pair is extremely remote, I will need to find a suitable woofer. I have a pair of 1501ALs that will likely be put to use in this project.

All that aside, I really like the sound I've heard from the 2216Nd and am thinking I may try a new DIY based on them. Based on the earlier posts in this thread and info from other threads, unless you have a very large room or need exceptional SPLs in the VLF range it seems a pair of 2216Nds will happily get you from the lowest frequency demands of most music to 800Hz.

I think I have found the excuse I needed. Thank you both!


Widget

[Robh3606]

I like your thinking! :D


I think I have found the excuse I needed. Thank you both!


Widget

Hello Widget

I have a spare pair if that helps

Rob :)

[Mr. Widget]

Hello Widget

I have a spare pair if that helps

Rob :):hmm:


Widget

[srm51555]

IIRC integrating an additional 2216nd with an M2 is theoretically very straightforward: you basically put a 1st order LP at around 100Hz on it, and remove the shelving filter from the LF crossover section of the M2.It is almost like it was meant to be done :DEDIT: If this was not obvious enough, I am just trying to help you find an excuse to buy a pair ;)I have been thinking on adding another 2216 myself. I already have the woofer and matching amp, just need some time.

Here is the post you gave more specifics on how to integrate another pair: https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?37659-Project-M2-DIY-Thread&p=405011&viewfull=1#post405011

[Robh3606]

I have been thinking on adding another 2216 myself. I already have the woofer and matching amp, just need some time.

Here is the post you gave more specifics on how to integrate another pair: https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?37659-Project-M2-DIY-Thread&p=405011&viewfull=1#post405011

You really think you need one or are you just doing a 4435 "upgrade"?

Rob :)

[srm51555]

Not really, I got the 2216nd's in a trade and figured it would be fun to try out.

What I really need is a different room to put them in.