PDA

View Full Version : Jbl 4430 and crown xls 1500



davidpou
11-10-2014, 12:52 PM
Hi,
I was just wondering if one could bi amp 4430 with two crown XLS 1500 setting up the crossover at 1000 Hz, just having the speakers tuned to external crossover, and thus not having an active crossover ?
Will the compression take the 300 W ? could it cope with the remaining of the passive crossover for it ? would the slope at 24 dB would do ?

(please do not be too hard if I am talking totall b.....sh...)

David

grumpy
11-10-2014, 03:21 PM
The 443x bi-amp curves (5234/5 cards) are buried here somewhere, so if the crown can emulate that, then sure
just switch the speaker to bi-amp mode and set the amp gain levels.
The 300w question is the silly one :)

davidpou
11-10-2014, 11:13 PM
Thanks,

well, I was writing this concern about the power because the manual of the 4430 is saying: "recomanded power amplifier" in biamp 75 W for the compression and 200 W for the boomer.... and the 2425H manual is saying 70 W - 100 W....yes its "continuous program, and music is not, but still... I do not want to blow a 2425H in the process....

Mctwins
11-11-2014, 01:28 AM
Hallo!

Just go for it!!

You have limiters in those Crowns as long as you do a proper Gain Structure. Connect one amp to one speaker and use x-over settings at 1000Hz, you have to try out what sounds best here regarding slopes.

One amp to one speaker, Channel 1 to Bass and Channel 2 to HF, or vice verca, look in the manual of the XLS1500.

It's a great amp!! :applaud:

Mctwins
11-11-2014, 01:37 AM
Hallo!

I see in the manual of the XLS that you can connect the crossover system in four modes. Just choose!

davidpou
11-11-2014, 02:38 AM
The slope is fixed at 24dB LR....
i need to find a way to completely bypass the remaining of the passive xover for the comptession ?
Would this slope do ?

grumpy
11-11-2014, 08:42 AM
No. If the slope is fixed, you will need to rethink what you are attempting to do
(you would be redesigning a speaker crossover and the required contouring EQ,
as opposed to using it as intended).

At this point, I would drop the biamp idea and just do the recommended series
of modifications/updates for this speaker (bypass the biamp switch, replace or
clean the L-pads, perhaps "charge-couple" the crossover, consider other diaphragms
if Ti is in place...)

Regarding power to the compression driver, 75W is sufficient (more is just unnecessary),
but a 300W amp will not hurt it any more than a 75W amp that is in clipping... at which
point you will be damaging your hearing anyway.

I still have a pair of 4430s and enjoy them quite a bit :)

davidpou
11-11-2014, 10:59 AM
Oh ! I thought every analog crossover had a fixed 24 dB / o slope....

And, when using digital crossover, often, people advise to start with a 24 dB slope and see from this on.... So it means I cannot even use a DBX 223XS
which has, for being an analog crossover, a slope fixed at 24 dB.... it is said to replace the M 552 .... which itself could be used for bi amp the 4430....

This crown 4430 thing comes from 1 that I want to avoid digital crossover (but this pretens is getting weaker every day) and 2 I wanted to do a sort of crown M2 system, because of the analogy between both speakers....
The crown XLS have no sophisticated DSP but an analog crossover.... I was so happy with my idea....:hmm:

grumpy
11-11-2014, 12:53 PM
if this doesn't help, then I stand by my reply:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?1159-5235-Network-Plug-In-Card-52-5130&highlight=52-5130

... doesn't mean it can't be done, it just means you are playing in the deep end of the pool ;)

Mctwins
11-11-2014, 11:33 PM
Oh ! I thought every analog crossover had a fixed 24 dB / o slope....

And, when using digital crossover, often, people advise to start with a 24 dB slope and see from this on.... So it means I cannot even use a DBX 223XS
which has, for being an analog crossover, a slope fixed at 24 dB.... it is said to replace the M 552 .... which itself could be used for bi amp the 4430....

This crown 4430 thing comes from 1 that I want to avoid digital crossover (but this pretens is getting weaker every day) and 2 I wanted to do a sort of crown M2 system, because of the analogy between both speakers....
The crown XLS have no sophisticated DSP but an analog crossover.... I was so happy with my idea....:hmm:

Hallo!

My thought was that you would keep the passive x-over intakt in 4430. My recommendation seems not to be good if you are choosing XLS1500 amps without the x-over in the speakers. It is 12dB/oct slope in the 4430 at 1000Hz according to specs.

Keep the 4430 as it is and use one XLS1500 and bi-wire them instead. More then enough power for them.

If bi-amping without x-over in the speakers, use dbx260, here you have all the feature you'll need.:)

davidpou
11-12-2014, 04:10 AM
hi,
I have also contradictory echoes from the JBL forum in France. An "authority" of the site, to my big suprise, advised me the same: keep the passive part and pug the crowns with the 1kHz crossover point respected... An other one, adivised numerical crossover like the one you said, or DCX 2496, they all do that it seems.

I will have a look at the passive crossover upgrade (audiokarma thread, I think) as Grumpy said. I went to fast on that one....

An old repair guy here told me the same: bi amp is lots of trouble for an uncertain result....

BUT on the other hand every one gone bi amping is not wanting to come back to mono.... and there is that: http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

I think i will give it a go. I will just buy one crown and if it sounds bad I will find another use for it (Home cinema for instance). I will give it a try on one speaker running in mono (not stereo) and keep the passive part on the mid and high. I will let you know....

Mctwins
11-13-2014, 02:47 AM
hi,
I have also contradictory echoes from the JBL forum in France. An "authority" of the site, to my big suprise, advised me the same: keep the passive part and pug the crowns with the 1kHz crossover point respected... An other one, adivised numerical crossover like the one you said, or DCX 2496, they all do that it seems.

I will have a look at the passive crossover upgrade (audiokarma thread, I think) as Grumpy said. I went to fast on that one....

An old repair guy here told me the same: bi amp is lots of trouble for an uncertain result....

BUT on the other hand every one gone bi amping is not wanting to come back to mono.... and there is that: http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

I think i will give it a go. I will just buy one crown and if it sounds bad I will find another use for it (Home cinema for instance). I will give it a try on one speaker running in mono (not stereo) and keep the passive part on the mid and high. I will let you know....

Hallo!

You can test with stereo config as well. Just connect channel 2 in bi-wire and don't connect the channel 1. Turn the knob "off" for channel 1. Here you can compare with mono and stereo mode. But I think in mono mode for the 4430 is overkill, in bridge mode you will have 1050Watts of power in 8ohms. Way to much power...

davidpou
11-14-2014, 12:21 AM
Hallo!

You can test with stereo config as well. Just connect channel 2 in bi-wire and don't connect the channel 1. Turn the knob "off" for channel 1. Here you can compare with mono and stereo mode. But I think in mono mode for the 4430 is overkill, in bridge mode you will have 1050Watts of power in 8ohms. Way to much power...

No I have been misunderstood. The test is simply to put the preamp on mono so as to have the full audio message on one speaker (and not just the right voice) but the Crown would be run at 8 ohms so 2 times 215 W.

I wanted to come back to your previous post: the best would be to connecte the HP directly onto the binding post and the filtering will be ONLY external, the passive filter can only induce bad response, and its contradictory with the biamp idea to keep passive components. Why did you say I had to keep the passive part for the high freq ?

allen mueller
11-14-2014, 03:48 AM
No I have been misunderstood. The test is simply to put the preamp on mono so as to have the full audio message on one speaker (and not just the right voice) but the Crown would be run at 8 ohms so 2 times 215 W.

I wanted to come back to your previous post: the best would be to connecte the HP directly onto the binding post and the filtering will be ONLY external, the passive filter can only induce bad response, and its contradictory with the biamp idea to keep passive components. Why did you say I had to keep the passive part for the high freq ?

On the 4430/35 when in biamp mode network provides the EQ needed for the horn. Check out the link for the correct curves, if you want to properly bi-amp the 4430/35 you need to go digital or find a 5235 crossover and use the proper cards. The required voltage drive isn't a simple curve to get the desired response from the system.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?1159-5235-Network-Plug-In-Card-52-5130&highlight=52-5130

Allen

Mctwins
11-14-2014, 05:16 AM
No I have been misunderstood. The test is simply to put the preamp on mono so as to have the full audio message on one speaker (and not just the right voice) but the Crown would be run at 8 ohms so 2 times 215 W.

I wanted to come back to your previous post: the best would be to connecte the HP directly onto the binding post and the filtering will be ONLY external, the passive filter can only induce bad response, and its contradictory with the biamp idea to keep passive components. Why did you say I had to keep the passive part for the high freq ?

Hallo!

In your first post you said Crown XLS 1500, has 300 Watts into 8 ohms. Here you are talking about Crown XLS 1000, 215 Watts into 8 ohms. Now, which amp are you gonna use?

What preamp are you using? If you mean "to put preamp on mono" by using a y-link, please explain?

Keep the passive(network) inside the 4430 and use external active x-over unit, or, as Allen said, use a 5235 crossover.

Some links...
https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CF4QFjAL&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jblproservice.com%2Fpdf%2Fstu dio%20monitor%20series%2F4430lr.pdf&ei=g_plVLuQK6P4yQO-9IHQDw&usg=AFQjCNEd4j9lGMT-E9LFc85KBc69c-i7Ig&bvm=bv.79142246,d.bGQ

https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDAQFjAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jblpro.com%2Fpub%2Fobsolete% 2F443035.pdf&ei=g_plVLuQK6P4yQO-9IHQDw&usg=AFQjCNHRgJGpHtLvFj-9yV_MpmWdILaTjg&bvm=bv.79142246,d.bGQ

davidpou
11-14-2014, 05:21 AM
ok.

Since I do not want to have the double conversion associated with digital filter, I have to :
- stick to What Grumpy said (I am looking for threads on this, the audiokarma I had in mind as I understand it continue to use the passive filter and not an external crossover
- use a digital preamp so as to have only one conversion; I saw one Golmund I think at 11 000 ! well I do not have this money...
- find a 5235.... with the proper cards (I know they are esay to reproduce, but I wouldn't do it as I do not have the knowledge)....

I recived the Crtown this monrning. I needs a lot of input as I have a solid state preamp (STELLO) that hardly scratched it and even at max volume on the Crown the sound was very low; different story with the C22 I had to put down the gain on the Crown. I run it in stereo with the internal cross over. As compared to the 275, bass were tighter, mids and highs less good, to put it short. As expected I would say, no surprise under the sun....

I will try (cause i 'm stubborn) my test tommorrow, with the crown on one speaker but I assume It will demonstrate odd result.

I still do not understand why people change the crossover point, some others add a medium and even a tweeter, and simply want to change the slope from 12 to 24 and from 18 to 24 dB if I got it well, and this will destroy the equilibrium totally ?:crying:

davidpou
11-14-2014, 05:29 AM
Hallo!

In your first post you said Crown XLS 1500, has 300 Watts into 8 ohms. Here you are talking about Crown XLS 1000, 215 Watts into 8 ohms. Now, which amp are you gonna use?

What preamp are you using? If you mean "to put preamp on mono" by using a y-link, please explain?

Keep the passive(network) inside the 4430 and use external active x-over unit, or, as Allen said, use a 5235 crossover.

Some links...
https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CF4QFjAL&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jblproservice.com%2Fpdf%2Fstu dio monitor series%2F4430lr.pdf&ei=g_plVLuQK6P4yQO-9IHQDw&usg=AFQjCNEd4j9lGMT-E9LFc85KBc69c-i7Ig&bvm=bv.79142246,d.bGQ

https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDAQFjAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jblpro.com%2Fpub%2Fobsolete% 2F443035.pdf&ei=g_plVLuQK6P4yQO-9IHQDw&usg=AFQjCNHRgJGpHtLvFj-9yV_MpmWdILaTjg&bvm=bv.79142246,d.bGQ

Sorry it must be my fault. Let me try again.
I bought and received this morning a Crown XLS 1000. I chose this one cause it runs 215 W at 8 ohms and the 4430 is runned at the same impedance, and because in biamp mode the manual says input power to the woofer 215 w (and 75 W to thje 2425H).

The preamp is a Mcintosh C22 (odd wedding isn't it?) and still in stereo without filter the crown is not bad as compared with the Mcintosh 275, suprisingly)

Now the test for bi amp would be this one:

From the C22 I choose mono to get the full signal (right and left) onto say the right voice. This goes to the crown that I put on crossover mode with Ch 1 the bass and Ch2 the mids, and this goes to one 4430. If it works on one speaker it works on two.... if the sound is all disturbed as predicted on this thread I ll have to return it or keeping it till I find a 5235 ti use for bass

Hope I am clearer......:)

Mctwins
11-14-2014, 06:38 AM
Sorry it must be my fault. Let me try again.
I bought and received this morning a Crown XLS 1000. I chose this one cause it runs 215 W at 8 ohms and the 4430 is runned at the same impedance, and because in biamp mode the manual says input power to the woofer 215 w (and 75 W to thje 2425H).

The preamp is a Mcintosh C22 (odd wedding isn't it?) and still in stereo without filter the crown is not bad as compared with the Mcintosh 275, suprisingly)

Now the test for bi amp would be this one:

From the C22 I choose mono to get the full signal (right and left) onto say the right voice. This goes to the crown that I put on crossover mode with Ch 1 the bass and Ch2 the mids, and this goes to one 4430. If it works on one speaker it works on two.... if the sound is all disturbed as predicted on this thread I ll have to return it or keeping it till I find a 5235 ti use for bass

Hope I am clearer......:)

Thanks, it is more clearer now.

I would connect in stereo mode, one channel, say Right, from your C22 to XLS1000....

Too check level from your preamp(around 80% on the volume knob) to XLS, disconnect the speaker cable and run some tune or pink noice thru the system and see when the XLS goes into clipping, turn down the knobs on the XLS untill there is no clipping.

Mctwins
11-14-2014, 06:42 AM
I forgott, you will get 700Watts in bridged mode of your XLS1000.

davidpou
11-14-2014, 07:04 AM
I forgott, you will get 700Watts in bridged mode of your XLS1000.

I will never use bridge mode, just crossover mode so I will "only" get 2 times 215 W.

another question about the XLS, how do you know it runs with 4, or 8 ohms ?

Mctwins
11-14-2014, 08:27 AM
I will never use bridge mode, just crossover mode so I will "only" get 2 times 215 W.

another question about the XLS, how do you know it runs with 4, or 8 ohms ?

Hallo!

Yes, I understand now, I thought you would connect in bridge mode. Yes, you can do this as you say. But you would need a y-split cable connected to the amp.

I only know from the specs of 4430, it say's nominal is 8ohm and minimum is 6 Ohms.

Be careful now so you don't blow your HF.:D

davidpou
11-14-2014, 09:02 AM
Hallo!

Yes, I understand now, I thought you would connect in bridge mode. Yes, you can do this as you say. But you would need a y-split cable connected to the amp.

I only know from the specs of 4430, it say's nominal is 8ohm and minimum is 6 Ohms.

Be careful now so you don't blow your HF.:D

no I do not need a Y cable since I need only one channel from the preamp in mono. So say right on the C22 (in mono L+R goes to R) goes to the Crown in XLR. Only one cable its in bold.

davidpou
11-14-2014, 09:04 AM
Hallo!


Be careful now so you don't blow your HF.:D

There is an americano-french consensus on this point: it won t happen....