2441 vs 2445: improvement worth the cost?

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, All,

It's looking like I may FINALLY be getting some down time from our work schedule, which would allow me to make a bit of progress in putting together some of the JBL systems for which I've long been gathering parts and info!! I don't want to jinx that, but needed to make another decision, and decided to ask for more details about comparing the JBL 2441 drivers to their 2445 drivers, for use in the system I have in the works. I have read that the 2441 is a more smooth reproducer of it's range, and that the 2445 can be a bit harsh, or even brittle-sounding. And, I've also read that the difference in sound between these two drivers is not that much of a big deal.

For those of you that have actually compared them, what is your opinion about which driver is more musical, and "listenable" for a good 4-way system? I already have the 2445 drivers, but have lately been wondering if I should either trade those off, towards a good pair of 2441's (with original JBL aluminum diaphragms), or save the 2445's for a small PA setup, and seek out and acquire the 2441 drivers for my system, outright. If it turns out that the overwhelming majority of those that have actually compared these two drivers in such systems, like the 2441's better than the 2445's, then I may have to start working on getting a good pair, and do something else with the 2445's. In the end, I don't want to have a system that is harsh, or not easy to enjoy. Thank you, very much, for any and all information about this comparison. I wish I could hear both drivers in person, comparing them with various types of music, at various volume levels and settings. But, since that is not easy to do, right now, I will very much appreciate hearing what you folks who have already compared these two drivers have to say about that experience! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. It's very odd to come down to the place where some progress can be made in bringing these plans to fruition, only to second-guess one of the major components I've chosen to be a part of my 4-way!! Thanks, again, for your thoughts, comments, and suggestions!

[4343]

IMO, the major difference between the two is the diaphragm material. Ti does sound a little less warm to my ear, but they are completely interchangeable. Maybe just try some AL in your 2445's and see what you think. You'll want new diaphragms anyways unless you just happen to luck into a set of 2441's with new one already in...

For my money a 2450 with an SL or AL diaphragm beats them both.

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Mike,

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I've never considered any of the newer JBL drivers, and your suggesting a possible different choice, tosses a small wrench into the works, as I'll need to learn a good bit, and so some more study, which isn't a bad thing, actually. However, I think, rather than do that, I'd just prefer to choose between the drivers I've already got on plate, and see how that goes, before sticking my toe into newer waters, for this system. I'd certainly like to hear some of the newer drivers, and see how they sound compared to the "tried and true" JBL goodies I grew up loving. Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[JeffW]

Doc, I'm pretty sure I have a used but usable pair of SL diaphragms you can have to try in your 2445 drivers. One risk with the 2441 route is the condition of the diaphragms. If they are shot, a replacement pair of AL diaphragms will set you back about 2/3 the cost of a pair of Be diaphragms. And the AL diaphragms would fit your existing 2445s, anyway. Whether or not there are sonic differences between the two drivers if using the same diaphragms I can't say, but if you want to give the SL 'phragms a shot, it won't set you back a dime.

[Doc Mark]

Howdy, Jeff,

That is a very kind and generous offer, Sir, and I would be foolish to turn it down! Yes, please! I would love to see how the AL diaphragms sound in the 2445 motor!! I could do a "sort of" A/B with one driver having the Ti 'phragm, and one having the AL 'phragm, and see if I can actually hear any difference. And, or course, I could just play some music through the pair of drivers, and see how that sounds. Please send me a PM, and let me know how we should proceed in this. We can work out the details on this kind offer of yours!! Much appreciated, Sir, and I look forward to talking to you soon!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Mark (Doc)

[JeffW]

A slight bit of confusion, the SL diaphragm is aquaplas coated titanium, not AL. Sort of a notch in between AL and bare TI. But some guys like them.

[1audiohack]

Hi Doc;

To me its not just what the material sounds like. The driver and horn constitute a system and the horn has its own transfer function of what geos into it with little regard for what drives it.

An example, a proper 2441 (with a good 2441 aluminum diaphragm) driving a 2311 horn measures very nearly flat to 16KHz on axis. That same 2441 driving a constant coverage horn like the large format 2360, cannot be Eq'd enough up high to not sound dull before it sounds very strained, its just not happy to do it. A proper 2446 or 2450 (with the ribbed Ti diaphragm) sounds and measures much better on the 2360 but mount either the 2446 or 2450 on a 2311 and it will blow fire.

This to me is the crux of the issue and why we hear so much of, this horn sucks and that driver sounds like breaking glass and so on. Create the wrong combination and you nearly can't make them sound good much less great.

When I made my plane wave tube and measured everything I could get my hands on I figured that JBL didn't go Be on their four inch pro drivers because the SL diaphragms get you 90% of the way there at likely 10% (to them) of the cost. Like most things, its the last little bit that costs all the money.

So, what I would ask first is, what horns are you going to use? Then are you planning on using a tweeter?

Barry.

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Jeff,

Ahhh.... now I understand. I had not seen the "SL" designation for what it actually means. If you're still up for loaning them to me, I would like to see how different they sound than what I already have. No hurry on this, so please give it a think, and let me know what you would like to do. I very much appreciate your offer to loan them to me, and will treat them with care and consideration. I would still like to hear the proper aluminum diaphragms in the 2445 motors, too, but maybe that's just not easy to setup. Lots to consider, it appears. Talk to you soon, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Mark (sorry for the confusion, Jeff)

[Doc Mark]

Evening, Barry,

I didn't see your post until just now. Been perusing older posts on this topic, and reading them with great interest! I want to use the 2445 in the 4-way system that's been in the planning and gathering stages for quite a long time. But, as I get close to actually being able to put this together, I still read posts saying that this driver just doesn't sound smooth in such systems, compared to the 2441, for example. For that reason, I was considering seeking out a pair of 2441's, just because that driver has a fairly solid reputation of being smooth, and very sweetly musical, and natural, and not brittle, or harsh. Today, I actually found a post of yours, in which you said that you liked your 2445's very much, and chose them over several other drivers you could have used. It seemed, if I read it right, that your diaphragms are the stock Ti 'phragms that came with those drivers, right? Or, did I take a wrong turn in my understanding of what you wrote back then? If that's true, then, of course, that's great news to me!!

In any case, my system, as it stands now, will consist of 2245's on the bottom, crossed to 2123's for mid-bass, crossed to the 2445 for the HF, crossed to the 2405's for the VHF. Crossover points will be electronically controlled, at 290hz, 1,200HZ, and 8KHZ. That seems to be a good place to start, at least. For the 2445, I have a pair of 2311 horns, and their proper lenses; a pair of 2397 "Smith" horns, with their 2328 mounting adaptors; and a pair of 2380A horns, just to see how those sound, too. If the 2380A's don't sound great to me, I will probably use them in a small PA cabinet and call it good. The 2311 set actually fits into what I originally planned better than the 2397, but I'm eager to try the 2397, just because I've heard do many wonderful things about it!!

So, there you have it, as far as what I have in mind for all this JBL stuff. Please let me know if I answered your questions, and if not, I'll give it another try! I've been up and working since before 5AM, and now it's time to cook up some dinner, and have a frosty beverage (Newcastle Brown Ale!). Talk to you soon, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Mark (Ye Olde Doc)

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Jeff,

Just a quick note about your kind offer to loan me some diaphragms. Let's wait on that for just a bit, please. As I look at how things have gone, let me get closer to actually being able to test these goodies, rather than just have them sitting here waiting for me. Will that work for you? Thanks, again, for your very generous offer, and when I'm ready, I'll give you a shout, and see how things go from there. Sound OK to you? Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Mark

[1audiohack]

Hi Doc;

If it were me, of the drivers you are considering, the 2311's and the 2397's would get proper 2441's. With a super tweeter, no question.

The 2380, the 2445.

The 2445 Ti Diaphragms #DΩ?R2445 are smooth surfaced and to me sound less fatiguing than the DΩ?R2450's with ribs that come in 2446's and 2450's but some horns need the HF boost that these provide and it arguably sounds better than a ton of EQ. It is the DΩ?R2445's when coated become the SL diaphragms.

As far as the driver motors and phase plugs go, the 2441's and the 2445's are functionally the same so a DΩ?R2441 diaphragm in a 2445 driver should sound the same as a proper 2441. I think they do and they measure that way. Also I think the SL diaphragms sound much better than their non coated counterparts if you are going Ti. I don't use the DΩ?2450's in anything but PA.

That's just my two bits.
Barry.

[Mr. Widget]

FWIW: I have had experience with the drivers and diaphragms in question and I agree 100% with both of Barry's last two posts.

I would add that I have also used TAD TD-4001s which have very similar geometry and they are better still, but at high cost. The Truextent option is in between in cost and probably performance. I've never compared them to the TADs.


Widget

[JeffW]

Hi, Jeff,

Just a quick note about your kind offer to loan me some diaphragms. Let's wait on that for just a bit, please. As I look at how things have gone, let me get closer to actually being able to test these goodies, rather than just have them sitting here waiting for me. Will that work for you? Thanks, again, for your very generous offer, and when I'm ready, I'll give you a shout, and see how things go from there. Sound OK to you? Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Mark

No problem, just let me know when you get ready. You can keep them if they suit you, send them back if they don't float your boat.

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Jeff,

Thank you, very much, my friend! Your offer is very much appreciated, and more than kind! I'm sending you a PM, and we can discuss this further. Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Mark

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, All,

Just a note of gratitude to those of you who posted an opinion on this. With your help, as always, I do believe I know what I need to do, and will see about making it happen. When all the dust settles, and everything has fallen into place, including some testing, which, hopefully, will take place in the next two-three weeks, I will let you all know what I decided, and how it all turned out!! Thanks, again, folks, for your advice and suggestions in this. I remain excited and enthusiastic about all this finally coming together in a working system, and look forward to the fun that always accompanies such a project!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[ivica]

Hi Doc Mark,

If You plan to to make 4-way system I think any of the mentioned driver 2441-45-46-50 can be used in the region about 1200Hz~10kHz, either Ti, ribbed or non ribbed, with the coating (SL) or without it, or Aluminum ( JBL D16R2441, or Radian 1245). In any case, depending on the applied horn, a kind of EQ would be (may be) needed. My only suggestion would be to apply the NEW diaphragm (if can afford). I have not so good experience with the old (second hand) PA used diaphragms of either type.

Reagrds
ivica

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, ivica,

Thank you for your suggestions and comments. Having been a pro musician for 30+ years, I know what you mean when talking about diaphragms that have been used in PA equipment. Some folks take really good care of their equipment, but many others don't, and they abuse things to the point of damage, or even destruction. I learned, very early, not to loan out my PA gear to other musicians, unless I knew that the took really good care of their stuff. When it's time to do the testing on the HF driver, I'll be listening carefully, and will see what sounds the best to my ears. I'll also run the system through the Scan-alyzer, and see what it shows, then use EQ as needed to correct any really huge problems, if any are found.

As an aside, I smile when seeing the 18" 2245's alongside the 15" 2235's of our L300's!! That huge 18" actually makes the 2235's look small, in comparison!! :D Unfortunately, due to a lack of room, the 4645 boxes will have to go behind the L300's, as there is no room to have them placed beside the L300's. Once I test further, with the other components for a 4-way, the L300's will have to be moved someplace else, and the other components will then be placed atop the 4645 enclosures. I'm eager to see how it all turns out!! Thank you for your comments, and rest assured I will be checking the diaphragms very carefully for problems, but with eye, and ear. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Doc Mark]

Good Evening, All,

JeffW very kindly sent me his SL diaphragms so that I can hear how those sound, compared to the regular 2445 diaphragms, without the aquaplas coating. I look forward to doing that in the next few weeks, and will report back here with the results of my listening and testing. A HUGE thanks to Jeff for his generosity in sending me his SL's to test!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc