4343 fully active?

[martin2395]

In the nearest future I will have two more poweramps, 4 in total (Crown K2, HH V800 MOSFET, BGW 750C and Krell KSA50Mk2) and was thinking about turning the 4343's to active with something like MiniDSP 4x10.

I'm wondering - is such a thing possible as the stock 3143 has quite a lot gimmicks built in to make the 4343 work properly I guess?

[martin2395]

A small bump on this one, still looking for info ;)

[macaroonie]

That's quite the mix of amps , HH V800 , lovely big lump.
Thing with the DSP is you can accomplish in minutes what would take you weeks to organize using passive.

[pyonc]

I'm wondering - is such a thing possible as the stock 3143 has quite a lot gimmicks built in to make the 4343 work properly I guess?

Make the 4343 work properly?
To me, that's a strange question, as you already have lots of high-end gear to match 4343...:blink:

[martin2395]

Work properly as "maintain the right xover points, slopes and AFAIK there is some equalization added too"


@macaroonie,
It would be just a test setup, then I could for example buy another Krell 50 to use it on the 2441's and 2405's.

I have no clue what's the deal with the V800 but man that thing sounds good! It's only a pity that every couple of minutes the cooling fan kicks in for like 45 seconds.

[WilliO]

Hi Martin,

based on my own experience I would like to recommend this DSP:

http://www.thomann.de/de/xilica_xp4080.htm

You will have 30 days time to make your own practice -and I think you will be surprised!

Greetings from Zuid Limburg
Willi

[martin2395]

I forgot macaroonie's tip - leave the comp. driver and the slot on passive network and the 2123 and 2235 active.
Then a Driverack PA2 would be amazing for a total noob like me ;D I'm not sure how easy to use the Xilica or XTA gear is?

DSP would be nice so I can, for example load 4355's settings - 290Hz and 1200Hz xover freqs.

[macaroonie]

I forgot macaroonie's tip - leave the comp. driver and the slot on passive network and the 2123 and 2235 active.
Then a Driverack PA2 would be amazing for a total noob like me ;D I'm not sure how easy to use the Xilica or XTA gear is?

DSP would be nice so I can, for example load 4355's settings - 290Hz and 1200Hz xover freqs.

Thing is , you can set almost any frequency , filter , delay , everything.

Hugely flexible , have a play with the software link i sent you. you'll get into it after a while.



m

[WilliO]

Martin,
of course it is not sooo easy to work with a Xilica DSP. Every (new) user need more or less time to understand the software and how it works.
Fortunely the european importer in also in Holland just accross the Ijsselmeer. If you have a problem you can ask them or other users. :)
I'm using the Xilica XP 3060 for my 2-way surround speakers with JBL 2426/2344A and 10" Visaton-Bass (GF250). There is a huge difference between the active version of these "small 4430" and the speakers in the past using the passive network with JBL-parts.

Willi

[pyonc]

Work properly as "maintain the right xover points, slopes and AFAIK there is some equalization added too"



I see. By the way, how does 2123H sound on your 4343?
4343's original mid-range drivers are 2121, and some say 2123H is NOT interchangeable with 2121 because of their different voice coil winding depth. Given that 4343's soft spot is this mid-range, however, I feel strongly tempted to use 2122 or 2123H...

[macaroonie]

Actually the Xilica XP 4080 would work very well for you since you have 4 power amps on hand. Also splitting the original 4343 x/o to leave just the HF and UHF is physically very tricky. You would have to have the network diagram and then extrapolate the connections that you need. I did it for 4315a and it took ages to work it all out.

Remember that if you are doing all this ( and it's worth it ) that the HF and UHF will need protection caps in series.

Values here

62718

[martin2395]

I forgot about those caps :banghead:
In that case I might just aswell order a new hf/uhf network rather dan butchering the original 3143's.

I tried the V800 today on the JBL's but it's a nope. It's just not refined enough voor HF duty, not harsh but grainy.
Partially it's the X-over's fault as it clearly adds some contour to the sound.

Do the Xilica's have their own sound signature? And what about XTA 224 or 226, they are a bit dated I guess?
To be honest, when it comes to digital stuff I prefer to keep it as modern as possible.

[cooky1257]

I've used both XTA226 and 224-currently a 224 is on duty with my K2 clones(ME150H/2452/TRUEXTENT/H9800 horn).
The XTA's sound transparent, are powerful and have a nice 'analogue' top end free of any digital glare. They have a particularly good reputation for good reason.
I'd swap them for a Lake but that's all.

[martin2395]

Since it was the easiest to get I decided to give the PA2 a go, I wonder if this is right (yes i know that the slope should be 12dB):

62732

Then the Highass for the High section is also at 300Hz. I wonder if you can tweak this stuff "on the fly" to directly hear what the difference is :p

[1audiohack]

Since it was the easiest to get I decided to give the PA2 a go,...I wonder if you can tweak this stuff "on the fly" to directly hear what the difference is :p

Likely, you can on the 260 and 4800.

[martin2395]

I will try it tomorrow with the amps set to 9, just to be sure.

The only disadvantage of the PA2 I could find so far is that it can't be turned off, especially the LCD display that is working all the time, absolutely unnecessary.
I heard from people that the older Driveracks had a very loud thump when when turned off...

[grumpy]

Amps off first. Regardless of the level of quality or designer thoughtfulness that went into what's up front.

[1audiohack]

The original DriveRackPA would bang if shut off before the power amps were off, that I know first hand, so do some of the BSS units.

The 260 and 4800 are very well behaved during power up-down. Neither have power switches on the front panel however mine are on power sequencers. I have not heard positively if the PA+ is a popper or not so if you accidently find out let me know.

The 4800's display can be dimmed to near off in the utilities section. The 260's display brightness is adjustable 1-9, I just run mine on the lowest setting. Hopefully you can dim the PA+ display, I would be surprised if not.


Barry.

[martin2395]

Amps off first. Regardless of the level of quality or designer thoughtfulness that went into what's up front.

I know but it's more of a "what if" scenario like power failure while your amps doesn't have output relays that cut the signal on poweroff. ;)

[martin2395]

I couldn't find any pics of the innards of the PA2 so here it is: http://nl.tinypic.com/r/3461ehc/8 :applaud:

[grumpy]

"I know but it's more of a "what if" scenario like power failure while your amps doesn't have output relays that cut the signal on poweroff."

I was pretty sure you knew :) good point. Small sine-output UPS on the PA2 might help if you really wanted to use it, and not tear into the electronics.

[Mctwins]

Hallo!

Just leave the Driverack "ON" all the time. I have mine "ON" since three, fours years now. Both PA+ and 260.

Little more info about your setup would be nice. Don't understand your settings?? What amp are you using and so on.....??

Thanks

[Mctwins]

In the nearest future I will have two more poweramps, 4 in total (Crown K2, HH V800 MOSFET, BGW 750C and Krell KSA50Mk2) and was thinking about turning the 4343's to active with something like MiniDSP 4x10.

I'm wondering - is such a thing possible as the stock 3143 has quite a lot gimmicks built in to make the 4343 work properly I guess?

Sorry, I see it here, but still, more info how your approch is, So it means that you are using four differen't brands to go active, correct!

[martin2395]

I run my speakers 2-way active now. The seller decided to keep the BGW.
The Krell will be getting an overhaul, that's why I run the V800 now on the mid/high section.

I'm still hoping to find another KSa50MkII to do a 3-way biamp with 2x KSA50MkII and 1x Crown K2 for the bass.

[martin2395]

I'm testing the 12dB/octave filter now, set to 290Hz. Could it be that it sounds better than 24dB/octave? :blink:

[Mctwins]

Hallo!

Ok, I understand now. I asume you don't have any passive x-over inside the speakers, they are removed, Right?

So, the Crowns goes to Bass and V800 goes to Mid/High for the moment.

When you say 12dB/oct, is it Bessel, Butterworth, Linkwitz-Reily? Try the LR 24dB/oct, both Highpass and Lowpass at 300Hz. Don't forgett(Important) to Highpass the Lows, start with 40Hz BW 18dB/oct. See how it sounds.

You have many features on PA2 but first you have to do a Gain Structure so the amps clips at the same time. So that you have good S/N ratio.

Time delay the transducers, maybe not so critical at this point where you are going two-way active but later on when you go 4-way active. Gets more complicated here, this is important.

You seem to have choosen very high power level from the amps to drive your speakers, why? It say in the manual 150Watts with 3dB headroom(from 1977 manual).

[Mctwins]

You can tweak on the fly and change different settings in your PA2, schould work, works on PA+ and 260.

[martin2395]

As I said, i'm only doing 2-way biamp now. So the V800 does the 2123/2441/2405 and the Crown K2 does the 2235H. The 3143 networks are still in place.
Why so much power? Well, the Crown K2 is already a kiind of 'reference standard' when it comes to driving subs and the Krell KSA50 is only 2x50W, the V800 is just a temporary solution until the Krell comes back from service.
The V800 will have to go because it can't run without the (LOUD) fan and the amp itself has quite noisy background and you can hear it very well through the horns. The KSA50 is really dead quiet.

I'm using 12dB/oct L-R (JBL spec) and to me it sounds better than 24dB/oct L-R that I used all the time before with my BSS FDS360.
I get a feeling that with 24dB/oct there is something lacking between the 2123 and 2235 that makes my 4343's sound like monitors with added subs. 12dB seems to feel that gap nicely.

[Mctwins]

As I said, i'm only doing 2-way biamp now. So the V800 does the 2123/2441/2405 and the Crown K2 does the 2235H. The 3143 networks are still in place.
Why so much power? Well, the Crown K2 is already a kiind of 'reference standard' when it comes to driving subs and the Krell KSA50 is only 2x50W, the V800 is just a temporary solution until the Krell comes back from service.
The V800 will have to go because it can't run without the (LOUD) fan and the amp itself has quite noisy background and you can hear it very well through the horns. The KSA50 is really dead quiet.

I'm using 12dB/oct L-R (JBL spec) and to me it sounds better than 24dB/oct L-R that I used all the time before with my BSS FDS360.
I get a feeling that with 24dB/oct there is something lacking between the 2123 and 2235 that makes my 4343's sound like monitors with added subs. 12dB seems to feel that gap nicely.

Ok, understand know.

If I where you I would get my hands on two identical amplifiers and only Bi-amping your speakers with your PA2 and call it a day. No more than 300Watts of amp power.

About driving your Crown to the sub, how much power can this transducer handle? Remember you still have your network.

About the hiss(noice) in your V800 can be due to lacking in Gain Structure or that it produces this hiss due to to much power. You see, there is difference in Crowns XLS series contra XTi series. XTi produces more hiss than XLS. Info from tech department from Crown.:)

[martin2395]

I have the passive filter on the mid/high section, it looks like this now:


Source - preamp -> Driverack HIGH -> HH V800 -> JBL 3143 passive network -> Mid/high section
............................Driverack LOW.->.Crown K2 -> 2235H woofers

I think that the amp is just noisy due to it's construction but it could be something with gain, on when you turn the volume knobs on the V800 to 50%-60% it's not noticeable.
The Krell needs more input gain and maybe that's the reason it's so quiet.

[Mctwins]

I have the passive filter on the mid/high section, it looks like this now:


Source - preamp -> Driverack HIGH -> HH V800 -> JBL 3143 passive network -> Mid/high section
............................Driverack LOW.->.Crown K2 -> 2235H woofers

I think that the amp is just noisy due to it's construction but it could be something with gain, on when you turn the volume knobs on the V800 to 50%-60% it's not noticeable.
The Krell needs more input gain and maybe that's the reason it's so quiet.

Hallo!

Now we are talking, so you don't use any passive network for your 2235H transducer. You schould read this.

https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jblpro.com%2Fpages%2Fcompone nts%2F2235h.htm&ei=1sLXU7KVAuWGywPZsYFw&usg=AFQjCNEqjc6-1qVvFxFA18E65a7beABlZQ&bvm=bv.71954034,d.bGQ

and this, important, specially the section "Do Not Expect 20 Hz From a 40 Hz Box"

https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jblpro.com%2Fpub%2Fmanuals%2 Fenclgde.pdf&ei=18PXU7bGJYrOygOE_IHwAQ&usg=AFQjCNF-nY-T5XazbAcH01FTxFDLZisE3A&bvm=bv.71954034,d.bGQ

I still believe that you are over power that transducer. At least, you schould Highpass at 30Hz BW 18.

[martin2395]

Why should I let it rolloff?

Honestly I never play loud enough to see the cone moving on the 2235H and on my listening spot it has enough bass to feel that the couch is ready for takeoff ;)
I bet that woofer has never seen 50-75 watts or more as my listetning level is around 70-85 dB.

[Mctwins]

Why should I let it rolloff?

Honestly I never play loud enough to see the cone moving on the 2235H and on my listening spot it has enough bass to feel that the couch is ready for takeoff ;)
I bet that woofer has never seen 50-75 watts or more as my listetning level is around 70-85 dB.

Hallo!

Don't understand your question:dont-know: Have you read the link I provided?

Don't worry, my JBL 4429 makes my sofa ready to take off with only 10Watts.;)

[martin2395]

Interesting stuff, I've been listening to the DBX with HH V800 amp for a 3 weeks and found it to sound "ok" as the V800 was just a temporary solution until I get my Krell back from servicing.

Well, I picked up the Krell yesterday with replaced fan, re-soldered boards and all the smaller caps replaced and I played it through the DBX and through the BSS. To be honest - the old but fully recapped FDS360 blew away the DBX, no contest. The DBX doesn't do anything wrong but compared to the BSS it's just dull and lifeless.

I noticed that the small hole between the mid and bass was back with the BSS, no I know that it has to do with the x-over slope so if I reset the BSS to 12dB/oct I'm good.

[martin2395]

Interesting stuff, I've been listening to the DBX with HH V800 amp for a 3 weeks and found it to sound "ok" as the V800 was just a temporary solution until I get my Krell back from servicing.

Well, I picked up the Krell yesterday with replaced fan, re-soldered boards and all the smaller caps replaced (With Nichicon Muse KZ!) and I played it through the DBX and later through the BSS.
To be honest - the old but fully recapped FDS360 blew away the DBX, no contest. The DBX doesn't do anything wrong but compared to the BSS it's just dull and lifeless.

I noticed that the small hole between the mid and bass was back when I connected the BSS, now I know that it because the x-over slope so if I reset the BSS to 12dB/oct (now 24db oct) I'm good.

[allen mueller]

To be honest - the old but fully recapped FDS360 blew away the DBX, no contest. The DBX doesn't do anything wrong but compared to the BSS it's just dull and lifeless.

I agree with you having use the original PA, and the 260 there is something that the DBX is missing when compared to bssfds360. The 360 is a great crossover. I also have tried the BSS digital x-overs in my systems over the years having used the 336T minidrive and the 366T omnidrive. With their digital units I found initially I was very impressed but over long listening sessions I found them a little fatiguing.

For the last several years I've been using an Xilica XP3060 which I love. I find it to be very transparent without adding any unwanted changes to the signal. If you can try one out I would recommend it.

Allen

[martin2395]

Hi Allen,

It's a bit hard for me to desribe what the DBX actually did with the sound but I could call the midrange a bit hollow, laid back and it dissapeared in the background a bit.
My guess is that the engineers at DBX did their best to mask the digital glare of this processor and they gave it a somehow muffled sound instead and I returned it today.


What's your opinion on the BSS FDS360 vs the Xilica? I've been looking at the XP3060 too because I love the flexibility of a digital unit.
Price-wise there isn't much difference between a brand new PA2 and a used XP3060.

[allen mueller]

I prefer the xilica over the fds360. Sound wise they are both very close but I think I might give a slight edge to the Xilica. To be fair I haven't recapped my 360 or done any service to it. The big thing for me is once I add in the ability to do parametric eq, delay and other things in the digital unit and still maintain the same sound quality the xilica beats out my combination of the fds360 and my white eq's that I use for my all analog chain.

The only thing I would say against the xilica is that its alittle hard to use the front panel controls to make adjustments but I would say that is true for most of the digital units I have tried. I use USB port on the front and my computer to make adjustments with their software which is easy to use and allot easier. It also has a network connection on the back as well but i haven't tried it.

Allen

[martin2395]

I got a chance to buy a slightly used Xilica xp4080 but I'm still unsure if it is able to replicate the stock crossover :dont-know:

[martin2395]

I need some advice regarding the slopes of the 2-way crossover, with 24dB/octave I noticed that the transition between then 2235H and 2123H wasn't optimal, there was a hole in the frequency.
12dboct. was in this case much better but what will be the best freq. and slope with 2235H->2123H?

[hjames]

I need some advice regarding the slopes of the 2-way crossover, with 24dB/octave I noticed that the transition between then 2235H and 2123H wasn't optimal, there was a hole in the frequency.
12dboct. was in this case much better but what will be the best freq. and slope with 2235H->2123H?

What crossover freq - should be 290Hz ... (thats what's used on 4341/4343/4345) between the woofer and the 2121/2122 -
I'm guessing the 2123 would be the same as long as you padded it down (3db or so) to compensate for the higher efficiency.

Also, is the 2235 connected in reverse polarity?

[martin2395]

I set the lpad to -2 on the 2123H but the correct transistion between the woofer and the midwoofer is (at least in my case it is) more audible.

I asked about the freq. since the original 4343 used 300Hz/12dB but with the 4344Mk1 and 4345 JBL switched to 290Hz/18dB. The MkII version crossed at 340Hz with unknown slope. Finally I wasn't able to find anything about the type of filtering they used, was it Butterworth or Linkwitz-Riley?

If the 3143 flips the polarity of the 223x internally while switched to bi-amp then yes - it's connected out of phase with other units. I mostly run the speaker wires directly from the K2 to the 2235H and when I do it's connected black-red and red-black.

[ivica]

I set the lpad to -2 on the 2123H but the correct transistion between the woofer and the midwoofer is (at least in my case it is) more audible.

I asked about the freq. since the original 4343 used 300Hz/12dB but with the 4344Mk1 and 4345 JBL switched to 290Hz/18dB. The MkII version crossed at 340Hz with unknown slope. Finally I wasn't able to find anything about the type of filtering they used, was it Butterworth or Linkwitz-Riley?

If the 3143 flips the polarity of the 223x internally while switched to bi-amp then yes - it's connected out of phase with other units. I mostly run the speaker wires directly from the K2 to the 2235H and when I do it's connected black-red and red-black.
Hi
may be I am wrong but 2123 is not so good for too low mid section as 2121 or 2122, so may cross over between 2123 2235 can be put higher, say something 450~500 Hz. for either driver I think would be OK.

regards
ivica

[macaroonie]

I got a chance to buy a slightly used Xilica xp4080 but I'm still unsure if it is able to replicate the stock crossover :dont-know:

Why don't you download the software and try it out ?

All these higher end DSP units will do just about anything you want and more. Replicating a specific passive network is clearly difficult if you don't know the parameters of that particular network.

Also this is worth reading : post 33

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?15666-Homebrew-4343/page3

M

[martin2395]

I had a lot of trouble changing my bss to 12dB for the last couple of weeks and yesterday I heard that 24dB would work fine too if I flipped the polarity, is it true? :blink:
I wanted to change because 24dB seemed to give a dip in freq between the woofer and mid.

[grumpy]

better than not. Going to 24dB/oct slopes normally means connecting the drivers in phase
(vs 12dB/oct, where it normally means flipping on, polarity wise)

whether it "works" in the larger sense of it being appropriate or not
to the system design is your call with your system :)