I murdered the 136A in one of my L300 Summits!!! What to do for replacement!!!

[cgregory4]

"There's no fool like an ol' fool." Yep .... That's me!

5 AM this morning: no sound from the right channel of one of the Summits. Stumbling around in the semi-dark, I did what any genius would do: I checked the RCA input to the Accuphase M-60 that sits on the Summit -- by 'checking' I mean wiggling and pushing, to make sure there is a good input to the amp. Highly technical stuff, right? The left Summit and its M-60 sounded fine. I had no clue as to why the right channel had gone silent.

Grabbing the RCA input, and pushing it in, I created one enormous sonic static impulse! I could see the amp meter on the M-60 jump!! Music from the LE85 mid --OK. NONE from the 136A woofer -- Dammit!. Pulled it out. Open circuit.

I love those speakers. They treated my ears well. I killed one of them. I feel like hammered goat droppings!

I got the 'bug' bad when I joined this forum. First the 4313s. Then some 4425s. Some Jubals. Drove to Burbank to get the Summits in my oilfield truck. More 4425s (I love that speaker!) Have located a pair of 4430s and 4435s, if I can just 'land' them. You guys warned me this would happen.

Back to the Summits. I'm considering some rebuilt 2235Hs, or some new 2226Hs, to replace the 136As. What do you recommend as replacement woofers? What do you recommend for my stupidity?!

I'm more concerned with 'tight', detailed sound than rattlin' the rafters. This is for music -- I want to hear the bass blasting clean when it's actually there, not semi-booming when it isn't. Does this make any sense?

I'm a lot more 'bummed' about 'creaming' this poor woofer, than I was last week when they told me my 'cured' prostate cancer had secretly deposited some malignant cancer cells in my bladder. 7 years later. Dammit, again! ;?) Stage 1 -- got a cure? LOL!

Again. Back to the important stuff! What is your recommendation for the next woofer set for the Summits?

Thanks for your help, guys!

Greg Short
Oilfield Trash & Native Texican
Midland, Texas

PS -- Is the LE85 in this speaker 8 ohms or 16 ohms? Always wondered about that.

PSS -- Is a 'zapped' 136A woofer good for anything? Other than a trotline weight?

[grumpy]

Personally, I'd go the 2235 route first, then look for a replacement 136A as it could take awhile
to find a worthwhile carcass (perhaps just needing a refoam/surround).

Also, you might check to see what it would take to repair your
136A... there are those who can do this kind of work (use some of the
original soft parts vs. a complete recone with not-quite-the-same kits).
Folks like edgewound and gordonW come to mind, but not sure if they
haunt these fora anymore... but it can be done.

2226H would not be on my candidate replacement list for this type of speaker.
If you did that, and liked it (who am I to say?)... definitely do both speakers, not just one.

[hjames]

First - keep it to one thread on this topic - you really only need one and folks will reply as they get home from work and find the time.

Follow Grumpy's guidance - go get a pair of 2235s for your system so you can still
play your speakers while you patiently hunt down a replacement driver or two.

Write to Lansing pro member Edgewound and see if he has any solutions for that 136A -
maybe you could send the roasted (?) driver off to him for repair.
He'll certainly know more about what can be done than many members here would.

[martin2395]

I always thought that the tweeters/comp.drivers die quicker because of their thin vc's :dont-know:

[audiomagnate]

I always thought that the tweeters/comp.drivers die quicker because of their thin vc's :dont-know:

They are well protected with 12 dB/octave high pass filters. There's nothing protecting the woofer from mishaps like this, except for the driver's innate power handling ability, which is actually pretty damn high, as I've lit the clipping lights of my Nak PA-7 into them with no bottoming or damage. I would keep them stock, as I just love them that way, along with a light stuffing of the ports. Stock is always easier to sell should you ever want to part with them.

[remusr]

Sounds like you fried the 136A's voice coil, which is very unusual for a woofer with only a pulse from a connection, even if it was cranked. Recone it with a JBL kit from a reliable service center or maybe someone online with contacts. 2235H is JBL's ferrite replacement for 2231A/136A alnico woofs and is what you'll essentially have after installing the kit in your 136A - but the Alnico magnet in your 136A is probably down in gauss so should be tested and if req'd re-zapped, but do both woofs if you do it or the change in sensitivity may be noticeable. The 2235H kit can handle 50% more power and excursion than 2231/136A, has slightly higher 20Hz fs vs 136A's 16. Don't bother getting a pair of 2235's, I don't think you will be able to hear the diff, I can't. Make sure you hook it up same polarity as original. 2226 is a different kettle of fish, more midbass, less deep.
PS - yes the LE85 is 8 & 16, depending on freq, there is only one model, same as 2420 pro; DCR should be about 6.5.
PPS - yes the 136A is good for something - recone it as above. Or you could mail it to me!

[cgregory4]

Sounds like you fried the 136A's voice coil, which is very unusual for a woofer with only a pulse from a connection, even if it was cranked. Recone it with a JBL kit from a reliable service center or maybe someone online with contacts. 2235H is JBL's ferrite replacement for 2231A/136A alnico woofs and is what you'll essentially have after installing the kit in your 136A - but the Alnico magnet in your 136A is probably down in gauss so should be tested and if req'd re-zapped, but do both woofs if you do it or the change in sensitivity may be noticeable. The 2235H kit can handle 50% more power and excursion than 2231/136A, has slightly higher 20Hz fs vs 136A's 16. Don't bother getting a pair of 2235's, I don't think you will be able to hear the diff, I can't. Make sure you hook it up same polarity as original. 2226 is a different kettle of fish, more midbass, less deep.
PS - yes the LE85 is 8 & 16, depending on freq, there is only one model, same as 2420 pro; DCR should be about 6.5.
PPS - yes the 136A is good for something - recone it as above. Or you could mail it to me!

Thanks to all for the responses!

remusr,
You supply a lot of good information for a novice like me. Thank you. Several questions please:

1) Orange County Speakers has the factory kit for repair. Since the voice coil is the culprit, everything else will be new, as well. (I was just relieved to know the poor woofer could be fixed!) If I understand you correctly, they will be using the 2235H kit -- Is that correct?

2) You are suggesting that I send the other 136A woofer, as well? I don't mind shipping them both at all -- as I would like them to be in 'first class' shape. However, I'm too 'clueless' to understand the 'zapping' of the 2nd 136A woofer. Would you be so kind as to explain in more detail?

3) It would be expensive, but well worth the cost, to have the complete 2235H kits installed in both woofers. (Since I would be shipping both anyway.) If the cost was not a problem, is this really the optimum solution?

audiomagnate,
I've found a couple of models I enjoyed better with a light 'stuffing' of the ports. When I dared to mention that in one of my few posts on this forum, I was branded an 'infidel', in no uncertain terms! It's nice to know I'm not the only sinner out there. ;?)

grumpy (Obviously -- my kind of guy.),
Thanks for the input. I notice you always take the time to answer ignorant guys like me. Most 'experts' would rather 'nail' than help. It seems there is some inverse proportional function relating number of posts to helpfulness to 'newcomers'. You, and a couple of other well-known, long-time, posters are obvious exceptions. Thanks again!

Greg

[Mr. Widget]

My 2 cents...

I would not recone both woofers. I would source a pair of 2235H woofers as replacements and hang onto the 136As. 2235H woofers are very common and not extremely costly.

I would keep the 136As because they are slightly different sounding than the newer 2235H and you may find a single to mate with your good one. With a lot of patience and research you may find a very creative repair shop who can carefully repair or replace just the coil... this is a long shot. I think there are a number of places who may do the work but finding one who actually does it right will be the trick.


Widget

[grumpy]

what he said ;)

[cgregory4]

My 2 cents...

I would not recone both woofers. I would source a pair of 2235H woofers as replacements and hang onto the 136As. 2235H woofers are very common and not extremely costly.

I would keep the 136As because they are slightly different sounding than the newer 2235H and you may find a single to mate with your good one. With a lot of patience and research you may find a very creative repair shop who can carefully repair or replace just the coil... this is a long shot. I think there are a number of places who may do the work but finding one who actually does it right will be the trick.


Widget

Mr. Widget,

Thanks for the advice! I already found one clean,original 2235H, with recent surround replacement. It is in transit to me. I will be looking for another nice 2235H.

If I understand you correctly, there might be someone who could actually repair/replace the 136A voice coil -- without destroying the original cone,cover, etc. Is that correct? Seems impossible to my limited mind! ;?)

Also, you would look for another 136A, rather than do 'major surgery' on my 'dead' one -- Is that correct?

Thank you, again, Sir,

Greg

[4313B]

Thanks to all for the responses!

remusr,
You supply a lot of good information for a novice like me. Thank you. Several questions please:

1) Orange County Speakers has the factory kit for repair. Since the voice coil is the culprit, everything else will be new, as well. (I was just relieved to know the poor woofer could be fixed!) If I understand you correctly, they will be using the 2235H kit -- Is that correct?

2) You are suggesting that I send the other 136A woofer, as well? I don't mind shipping them both at all -- as I would like them to be in 'first class' shape. However, I'm too 'clueless' to understand the 'zapping' of the 2nd 136A woofer. Would you be so kind as to explain in more detail?

3) It would be expensive, but well worth the cost, to have the complete 2235H kits installed in both woofers. (Since I would be shipping both anyway.) If the cost was not a problem, is this really the optimum solution?

audiomagnate,
I've found a couple of models I enjoyed better with a light 'stuffing' of the ports. When I dared to mention that in one of my few posts on this forum, I was branded an 'infidel', in no uncertain terms! It's nice to know I'm not the only sinner out there. ;?)

grumpy (Obviously -- my kind of guy.),
Thanks for the input. I notice you always take the time to answer ignorant guys like me. Most 'experts' would rather 'nail' than help. It seems there is some inverse proportional function relating number of posts to helpfulness to 'newcomers'. You, and a couple of other well-known, long-time, posters are obvious exceptions. Thanks again!

GregA few backhands interspersed with thank you notes is cool! :p

[4313B]

what he said ;)Definitely :)

[cgregory4]

A few backhands interspersed with thank you notes is cool! :p

Sir, you are absolutely one of the 'obvious exceptions' to whom 'I tip my hat', and proof that 'class will out!'.

Rudeness on Internet forums is the norm these days. Bladder cancer and Lewy body dementia are taking their toll on me, but I will go out 'swinging'! ;?)

My last project (After my computer audio Nirvana setup. ;?), is to attempt to use Joseph Fourier's mathematical transformations to 'filter' rude Forum responses -- especially on my favorite college football site!

Although I've worked as oilfield trash since I was 14 years old, I took a vacation at the University of Texas to earn my BSEE. Math was fun, so several graduate-level mathematics courses were just the ticket as electives. The head of the UT math department taught the most interesting math course I took: "Fourier and Laplace Transforms". What fun!

My demented recollection from 45 years ago was the magnificent power of the Fourier transformation to make complex mathematical expressions much more manageable (an understatement).

In analogous and simple terms, the complex expression -- let's say a rude Internet post -- is taken to another 'domain' and separated into its various 'ingredients'. Fourier showed us we could then 'play' with these 'ingredients' in a much simpler and beneficial fashion to examine/alter the recipe to our heart's content. In this example the ingredients' in the rude Forum post could be manipulated to achieve some degree of decorum.

THEN -- all we need to do is take the the new 'recipe' back to the original domain and -- PRESTO! -- we have a civil, polite Internet post. QED ;?)

PM me and I'll send you my address for $ contributions to my project. :)

Greg

[ivica]

......
If I understand you correctly, there might be someone who could actually repair/replace the 136A voice coil -- without destroying the original cone,cover, etc. Is that correct? Seems impossible to my limited mind! ;?)

.....


Hi cgregory4,


May be this would be helpful:
http://www.uplandloudspeaker.com/

A friend of mine has got 2202 recone kit from them, and is very satisfied.

I have no personal experience.
On my opinion, 2235H and re-conned 2231A (with C8R2235) vs original 2231A have not the same sound character at all.


regards
ivica

[subwoof]

my 2 cents says the sudden over-excursion broke one of the tinsel wires....easy for a speaker tech to check and replace if needed.

I have had *many* of the older foam-surround 4" coil speakers fail this way.

do this *first* before spending money on replacements..:)

[remusr]

Scrap the reconing idea I guess - you are buying 2235's. And I'd only recommend reconing the 2nd good 136A if you want both to sound like a slightly degaussed 2235H (unless you get them both recharged when reconing, whereupon they will then sound almost exactly like a new 2235H).
So you'll be installing the 2235H you bought. Unless it is just a detached lead, in which case resolder that and you are away! After you do replace with the 2235H (be sure to connect the wires from the crossover the same as they were on the original!) then listen for a good while to see if you are happy with the result. You may find that the 2235 makes that L300 biased a bit more to the lower frequencies because although the sensitivites for the 136A at 93.6dB and 2235H at 93.3dB were essentiually identical when new, the 2235H may now be more sensitive/louder than the remaining 136A as the 136A has an Alnico magnet that loses strength and therefore 2-3dB loudness if it gets banged around or just over time, whereas the ferrite magnet in the 2235H is more robust and does not tend to lose its magnetic gauss the same way. If you like that, put another 2235 in the other side. Done.
Later, if you do want to recone your 136A's to get them to be their best, that will be to sound like a 2235H as you can't get an exact 136A replacement kit anymore. Do not use an alternate supplier for the kit than JBL as it will not sound right. Your JBL service ctre (Orange County?) can recone them with the C8R2235 kit which includes a loose dome cap and an assembled surround, cone, spider, voice coil & former with leads that will make your 136A sound like a 2235H if the 136A magnet is at full strength. If it isn't, and it won't be after all this time, Orange County can re-gauss (juice) them to original strength by hitting them with alot of electrical energy, in a controlled sorta way.

To reiterate, JBL's modern replacement for your 136A is the 2235H. 2235H's are fairly available, more robust than the 136A and sound almost identical to the 136A to most people. The major differences in spec are 2235H's 150W power rating & higher 20Hz fs vs the 136A's 100W & 16Hz. The only available JBL recone kit for the 136A/2231A is the 2235H kit pn C8R2235, per the following excerpt from the 2012/11/14 JBL Pro Repair Kit "Goes Into" Listing, where "x" notes the closest substitute available and the 2231A is the JBL Pro exact equivalent of your JBL Home 136A:
NOTES REPAIR KIT SUGG RETAIL KIT GOES INTO
x C8R2235 $214.00 2230A, 2231A, 2231H, 2234H, 2235H

[cgregory4]

Scrap the reconing idea I guess - you are buying 2235's. And I'd only recommend reconing the 2nd good 136A if you want both to sound like a slightly degaussed 2235H (unless you get them both recharged when reconing, whereupon they will then sound almost exactly like a new 2235H).
So you'll be installing the 2235H you bought. Unless it is just a detached lead, in which case resolder that and you are away! After you do replace with the 2235H (be sure to connect the wires from the crossover the same as they were on the original!) then listen for a good while to see if you are happy with the result. You may find that the 2235 makes that L300 biased a bit more to the lower frequencies because although the sensitivites for the 136A at 93.6dB and 2235H at 93.3dB were essentiually identical when new, the 2235H may now be more sensitive/louder than the remaining 136A as the 136A has an Alnico magnet that loses strength and therefore 2-3dB loudness if it gets banged around or just over time, whereas the ferrite magnet in the 2235H is more robust and does not tend to lose its magnetic gauss the same way. If you like that, put another 2235 in the other side. Done.
Later, if you do want to recone your 136A's to get them to be their best, that will be to sound like a 2235H as you can't get an exact 136A replacement kit anymore. Do not use an alternate supplier for the kit than JBL as it will not sound right. Your JBL service ctre (Orange County?) can recone them with the C8R2235 kit which includes a loose dome cap and an assembled surround, cone, spider, voice coil & former with leads that will make your 136A sound like a 2235H if the 136A magnet is at full strength. If it isn't, and it won't be after all this time, Orange County can re-gauss (juice) them to original strength by hitting them with alot of electrical energy, in a controlled sorta way.

To reiterate, JBL's modern replacement for your 136A is the 2235H. 2235H's are fairly available, more robust than the 136A and sound almost identical to the 136A to most people. The major differences in spec are 2235H's 150W power rating & higher 20Hz fs vs the 136A's 100W & 16Hz. The only available JBL recone kit for the 136A/2231A is the 2235H kit pn C8R2235, per the following excerpt from the 2012/11/14 JBL Pro Repair Kit "Goes Into" Listing, where "x" notes the closest substitute available and the 2231A is the JBL Pro exact equivalent of your JBL Home 136A:
NOTES REPAIR KIT SUGG RETAIL KIT GOES INTO
x C8R2235 $214.00 2230A, 2231A, 2231H, 2234H, 2235H

remusr,

After considering all the good advice that you, and others, have offered, I plan to proceed as follows (which I hope y'all approve of ;?):

1) A guy has an old original 136A voice coil. I'll send both woofers to him. When he finishes, I'll have new surrounds, spiders, and 2 original voice coils -- with original cones intact. They will be installed in the Summits.

2) I have 4 2214H-1s that need work. He will repair them, as well.

3) It will not hurt to have a couple 'low mileage' 2235Hs lying around. With two 2405Hs in the closet, two 2420/2312 units on the floor of the 'guest' room, and 2 new L300 crossover boxes gathering dust in the garage, I may have the fixin's to start building something. I remember well one of the first pieces of advice I received on this forum: "There is absolutely no substitute for a big-ass 4-way speaker system!" Maybe I can add 2 18 inchers, and put something together that will do justice to that comment! ;?)

Thanks to all!

Greg

[remusr]

Sounds like you have a plan for sure! I'd recommend you regauss the 136A's as a key part of regaining the original dynamics. Best wishes!
For a 4way you may want to look at something that can handle the 300-1000Hz range. Good bass 15's such as 2235's or 136A's are not at their best as they approach 800Hz and 18's like the 2245H much above 300HZ due to directivity issues. A nice 10" like the 2122H is the way to go. Your 2235's are best used as backup or alternates to your 136A's in your L300's. I'd put them in when you send the 136A's out and you may not take them out. Unless you want another set of L300's, as you have all the parts!

[HCSGuy]

If your solution doesn't work, shoot me a PM. I got a pair of 4343's a few years back that I think had 136A's in them. I got replacement 2231A's for them, but haven't had time to pull the 4343's out of the crates to do the switch. If you need them, I can uncrate them and take a look on my next trip down to CA.